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Green Mountain Boy
05-03-2014, 11:09
I have had a 29 Gen 4 for a while and up until this point was running mostly underwood through it. As such I have a nice little stash of Starline and Underwood once fired brass.

Last night I set up my dies (Lee 4 Die Set) on the RCBS Rock Chucker and went to work. As these dies are 40 s&w dies that can load 10mm I noticed that I had to be at the edge of the adjustment length to get them to work properly. As such I had to make a few more dummy rounds to get to where I was going.

Rainer Led Safe 165 Grain Plated Flat Nose
6.8 Grains Tite Group
Starline/Underwood Brass
CCI 300 Large Pistol Primer (not magnum)
1.126 OAL

I only had time to make up and test 20 but It was a nice first blush. I did not notice a difference in recoil between the underwood loads I have been shooting and this. These were enough to cycle the heavier recoil spring that I have been running for underwood and functioned perfectly. I used an old soup pot that we have been shooting as a target because I was burning daylight and didn't have time to setup real targets.

My accuracy was MOSP (minute of soup pot) at ~20 yards. I will say that these rounds knocked that pot all over the range. It was like shooting at one of those bouncing ball targets.

This afternoon when I get home from work I am going to do up a bunch more and run some drills with them.

Regards, GMB

SJ 40
05-03-2014, 16:34
GMB

Wait till you load up some Longshot or Blue Dot under those 165's,you will be surprised what the chronograph says. SJ 40

Steel Head
05-03-2014, 16:49
Seems like a really fast powder for 10mm not that I have anything against fast powders, for my uses they perform very well.
I'm curious at to what speeds your getting compared to the underwood ammo.

Congrats on the 10mm ammo!

Didn't hear of any earthquakes or mysterious nuclear tests today:dunno:

steve4102
05-03-2014, 21:40
Rainer Led Safe 165 Grain Plated Flat Nose
6.8 Grains Tite Group
Starline/Underwood Brass
CCI 300 Large Pistol Primer (not magnum)
1.126 OAL

I'm curious were you got your load data.

Lyman 49 lists a Max charge of 6.3gr of Titegroup with an OAL of 1.250.

As Rainier recommends lead data for their bullets I went to Lyman #4. It list a Max charge of Titegroup as 6.4gr with a 150gr Bullet with and OAL of 1.240.

You 6.8gr is way over max according to Lyman and your 1.126 OAL is way to short.

Looks to me as if you are it the market for another TiteGroup KB.

BTW, did you work up to this over max load or did you start at 6.8gr?

Steel Head
05-03-2014, 22:18
I'm curious were you got your load data.

Lyman 49 lists a Max charge of 6.3gr of Titegroup with an OAL of 1.250.

As Rainier recommends lead data for their bullets I went to Lyman #4. It list a Max charge of Titegroup as 6.4gr with a 150gr Bullet with and OAL of 1.240.

You 6.8gr is way over max according to Lyman and your 1.126 OAL is way to short.

Looks to me as if you are it the market for another TiteGroup KB.

BTW, did you work up to this over max load or did you start at 6.8gr?
I believe Hodgdons data goes into the 7+ grains range

WeeWilly
05-03-2014, 23:32
I couldn't find Hodgdon data for 165gr plated (or any 165gr).

Max for 155gr XTP is 7.2gr, so I doubt 6.8gr is going to blow anything up, but likely over SAAMI max pressure for a 165gr plated bullet. I definitely wouldn't play any higher and would be hand weighing each charge. One slip up, up there and you could start breaking things pretty quickly.

Green Mountain Boy
05-04-2014, 00:17
I used hhogdon 155 grain data for titegroup. They seemed to run just fine.

Ps I do hand weigh every charge. I didn't notice any signs of sever pressure.


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Green Mountain Boy
05-04-2014, 00:18
Just realized my oal was a typo. That should have been 1.26 lol wow that would have been scary.


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PCJim
05-04-2014, 06:07
Just realized my oal was a typo. That should have been 1.26 lol wow that would have been scary.

That makes a BIG difference.

Green Mountain Boy
05-04-2014, 08:07
That makes a BIG difference.

Lol yea I wouldn't have to worry about typos...... No hands left to type with after a 10 mm that short.


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WeeWilly
05-04-2014, 09:22
Funny, I didn't even read it as 1.126, I read your original OAL as 1.260".

In any case, you are likely at or over the line pressure wise for a plated 165gr bullet. As mentioned by Steel Head, Titegroup is too fast for heavy 10mm loads.

I am surprised the recoil felt similar to your Underwood loads. I would guess you are pushing those 165gr Rainier bullets at least 100fps less than the 165gr UW stuff.

Colorado4Wheel
05-04-2014, 09:36
Not trying to be a jerk. But pushing Titegroup to a Max charge in any caliber is just silly. 10mm is not different then 9mm or .357sig. All are very high pressure rounds. Don't understand why that would be your choice for 10mm max loads. It's a 180degree opposite of the proper choice. Obviously, it can be done but your just waiting for a major issue to occur. So be very careful and find a different powder. Something in the AA#7, Unique, Power Pistol etc range. 10mm is a great cartridge. Other then it fitting in a Glock I just don't like (large frame) it's my favorite cartridge.

Green Mountain Boy
05-04-2014, 09:44
I could switch to longshot. Have some of that as well. I take no offense to anything. Don't worry about that at all guys.

Hhogdon goes to 7.2 for a 155 gr bullet. 6.8 felt good in this however sounds like you gents are concerned about burn rate. Later today I will switch to a longshot load and see where that takes me.


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Colorado4Wheel
05-04-2014, 09:55
I could switch to longshot. Have some of that as well. I take no offense to anything. Don't worry about that at all guys.

Hhogdon goes to 7.2 for a 155 gr bullet. 6.8 felt good in this however sounds like you gents are concerned about burn rate. Later today I will switch to a longshot load and see where that takes me.


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You make a couple assumptions that are very dangerous with a uber fast powder like TG.

1) You use the 155 gr data and extrapolated it out to 165 gr. While that is a good thing, you used it to determine MAX data rather then the much safer process of using it to determine MIN data and then working it up to the middle range for that powder. I would never use that process to determine MAX data with out a chrono, some history testing with that gun and a variety different loads.
2) Your using the concept of FEEL as some validation. A fast powder like TG is going to FEEL softer. If the TG load feels like the Underwood load you very well are in trouble. Underwood loads are not light loads and I am confident they don't use TG to make their loads in 10mm. If they do they are crazy and I doubt they are crazy. Basically a MAX load of TG would feel softer then a MAX load of Longshot (the more likely max load choice). So if your TG load feels like the Underwood load your probably pushing the TG way past what you should be.

Edit:You would have been totally safe using the Heavier bullet data for the lighter bullet. But you went the other way, Lighter bullet data for the heavier bullet.

steve4102
05-04-2014, 10:16
All the data extrapolation aside, ACTUAL 165gr data from Lyman puts MAX for 165gr bullet at 6.3gr.

6.8 is over Max, going over MAX with Titegroup is a Recipe for Disaster.

You wish to push that envelope, start you load development well over Max instead of working up, go for it? Just make sure when you are at the range you warn all those around you so they can back away when you have a KB.

Carry On, enjoy!

WiskyT
05-04-2014, 12:14
I agree, It's an accident waiting to happen. I would use 180 grain data and at the start charge only. TG is for low velocity target loads. I run Bullseye, which is similar, in 40SW with a cast 165 (which is similar to a plated bullet). I rarely use more than 4.0 as the groups go to crap and the bullets start to tumble.

I'd bet those rounds were near key-holing if they were shot on paper. Plated bullets ar basically like those little foil covered Easter eggs. They have a thin plating that adds nothing in terms of structure over a soft, pure lead, core.

Green Mountain Boy
05-04-2014, 20:20
All the data extrapolation aside, ACTUAL 165gr data from Lyman puts MAX for 165gr bullet at 6.3gr.

6.8 is over Max, going over MAX with Titegroup is a Recipe for Disaster.

You wish to push that envelope, start you load development well over Max instead of working up, go for it? Just make sure when you are at the range you warn all those around you so they can back away when you have a KB.

Carry On, enjoy!

Do you have a link to the Lyman data? That would be helpful.

Thanks, GMB


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Colorado4Wheel
05-04-2014, 20:40
http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/1064217655/lyman-reloading-handbook-49th-edition-reloading-manual?cm_vc=ProductFinding


Here you go. ;)

Green Mountain Boy
05-04-2014, 20:43
http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/1064217655/lyman-reloading-handbook-49th-edition-reloading-manual?cm_vc=ProductFinding


Here you go. ;)

Lol. I have a Speer manual. And an accurate printout. Also have hhogdon data printed out from the net.

I suppose I could buy another manual.


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Colorado4Wheel
05-04-2014, 20:49
Lyman is a good manual.

steve4102
05-04-2014, 21:03
Lol. I have a Speer manual. And an accurate printout. Also have hhogdon data printed out from the net.

I suppose I could buy another manual.



Speer does not list 165gr or TG.

Hodgdon does not list 165gr.

Accurate does not distribute TG so there will never be any TG data from them.

I asked in post #4, where you got your data from, I will ask again.

I also asked if you worked up to your Over Max load of 6.8gr, I will ask that again?

Colorado4Wheel
05-04-2014, 23:00
Hodgon List 7.2 gr for a XTP in 155 gr.
And
6.0 grs for the 180 gr JHP. So it's got to be in the 6.6 grs range as a max charge.

But thats is only a guess and guessing is not what you do when you are loading a max charge especially with a fast powder.

WeeWilly
05-04-2014, 23:29
I could switch to longshot. Have some of that as well....

I think you will find Longshot a terrific powder to replicate the Underwood performance levels in 10mm.

Not sure what Rainier sets as their speed limit, some of the plated mfg's set a 1200-1250 fps speed limit, which obviously will be insufficient for max effort 165gr loads using Longshot. I would think 1400fps (G20 length barrel and longer) would be well within reach using Longshot and 165gr slugs, so maybe check with Rainier before going whole hog. ;)

For Longshot loads, I would use mid-range 180gr loads from Hodgdon as my start point. Lots of good Longshot data over in the stickies of the 10mm reloading section.

steve4102
05-05-2014, 07:32
I could switch to longshot. Have some of that as well. I take no offense to anything. Don't worry about that at all guys.

Hhogdon goes to 7.2 for a 155 gr bullet. 6.8 felt good in this however sounds like you gents are concerned about burn rate. Later today I will switch to a longshot load and see where that takes me.




I can find no 10MM data with 165gr bullets and longshot. Without tested data you will be guessing, again.

WeeWilly
05-05-2014, 08:34
I can find no 10MM data with 165gr bullets and longshot. Without tested data you will be guessing, again.

It is perfectly safe to start with 180gr data and work up using normal load workup process.

Colorado4Wheel
05-05-2014, 08:38
Never understood the desire for anything lighter then a 180gr bullet in 10mm.

You can also use the lighter and heavier data points to find a reasonable starting and end point.

WiskyT
05-05-2014, 08:51
Another possibility for the OP is to use 40 data.

WiskyT
05-05-2014, 08:56
Never understood the desire for anything lighter then a 180gr bullet in 10mm.

You can also use the lighter and heavier data points to find a reasonable starting and end point.

I never understood the desire to have a bullet going 100 fps faster than the 40SW.

As far as the 165 components being the way they are, the OP might not have had a choice.

Colorado4Wheel
05-05-2014, 10:11
It's because Bears are scary. So you need a 10mm. ;)

steve4102
05-05-2014, 13:05
It is perfectly safe to start with 180gr data and work up using normal load workup process.

Maybe, but the Start charge of LS for the 180gr bullet is 1221fps. His 165gr plated bullets are rated at 1250fps max.

So, starting at 180gr Minimum will put him over 1250fps.

WeeWilly
05-05-2014, 13:54
Maybe, but the Start charge of LS for the 180gr bullet is 1221fps. His 165gr plated bullets are rated at 1250fps max.

So, starting at 180gr Minimum will put him over 1250fps.

So you are countering my point by making a point I made to the OP earlier, what a joke.

steve4102
05-05-2014, 15:12
So you are countering my point by making a point I made to the OP earlier, what a joke.

No joking matter.
First you said this.


Not sure what Rainier sets as their speed limit, some of the plated mfg's set a 1200-1250 fps speed limit, which obviously will be insufficient for max effort 165gr loads using Longshot. I would think 1400fps (G20 length barrel and longer) would be well within reach using Longshot and 165gr slugs, so maybe check with Rainier before going whole hog.

Then you said this.

It is perfectly safe to start with 180gr data and work up using normal load workup process.

Is it safe to load 165gr Plated bullets using 180gr data at velocities higher than recommended by the manufacturer or isn't it?

First you say be mindful of velocity, then you say, go ahead and load LS with 180 data abve recommended velocities, then you say my post is a joke.

Interesting.

WeeWilly
05-05-2014, 16:21
No joking matter.
First you said this.




Then you said this.



Is it safe to load 165gr Plated bullets using 180gr data at velocities higher than recommended by the manufacturer or isn't it?

First you say be mindful of velocity, then you say, go ahead and load LS with 180 data abve recommended velocities, then you say my post is a joke.

Interesting.

If you knew more it might be worth debating.

There is nothing unsafe about loading plated faster than what Rainier recommends. Accuracy might suffer but nothing unsafe about it.

Why not learn a few things before coming in with the lectures?

Green Mountain Boy
05-05-2014, 16:58
Fellas I don't want to fight. Bottom line is nothing blew up, accuracy was fine and recoil was not bad. I am not looking to replicate underwood at all. I commented earlier that the recoil felt similar to uw that is all.

I have 165 grain rainers, titegroup, aa#2, and longshot because that is what was available to me. I am lucky to find anything at all.

Based on the above I will be going with the bare minimum 180grain data and longshot and testing 20 of those tonight.

Colorado4Wheel
05-05-2014, 17:02
You could also use the midrange data for TiteGroup. Just lower the charge about 1 gr I would guess.

Green Mountain Boy
05-06-2014, 07:48
You could also use the midrange data for TiteGroup. Just lower the charge about 1 gr I would guess.

That is basically what I did for the 155 vs 165 just in reverse. I had data for a 155 grain xtp using titegroup. That data showed that it would take a minimum of 6.6 grains. I therefore surmised that 6.8 grains would be required for a 165 grain projectile.

It was my understanding that the rainers may loose some accuracy potenttial but were not going to be dangerous if moving a little too fast. Rainers sight states to use jacketed load data so I did.

I am not trying to hot rod or duplicate underwood. Just looking to use up 500 165 grain rainer rounds for a nice practice load and the 29.

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2014, 09:01
That is basically what I did for the 155 vs 165 just in reverse. I had data for a 155 grain xtp using titegroup. That data showed that it would take a minimum of 6.6 grains. I therefore surmised that 6.8 grains would be required for a 165 grain projectile.

It was my understanding that the rainers may loose some accuracy potenttial but were not going to be dangerous if moving a little too fast. Rainers sight states to use jacketed load data so I did.

I am not trying to hot rod or duplicate underwood. Just looking to use up 500 165 grain rainer rounds for a nice practice load and the 29.

And that is where you went wrong. If a 155 takes 6.6 gr for a starting load the heavier 165 takes less powder not more. From Hodgon website the 180 gr would take a 5.4 gr starting charge. The 165 would fall in the middle at about 6gr and the max would fall in the middle at about 6.6 gr. All this is on Hodgon website which has really good data.

Green Mountain Boy
05-06-2014, 10:30
Ah the concept of a heavier bullet taking less powder is where I was messing up. Is that because of case volume?

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2014, 10:48
Ah the concept of a heavier bullet taking less powder is where I was messing up. Is that because of case volume?

The heavier bullet creates more resistance so it builds pressure more quickly.

I think you now know why all of us are freaking out (figure of speech) and your like "seems fine to me". Your math was in the wrong direction. If your gonna go with a in between bullet weight it is always best to just print the heavier and the lighter data and look at them both and work it out based on both those data points.

Green Mountain Boy
05-06-2014, 11:40
The heavier bullet creates more resistance so it builds pressure more quickly.

I think you now know why all of us are freaking out (figure of speech) and your like "seems fine to me". Your math was in the wrong direction. If your gonna go with a in between bullet weight it is always best to just print the heavier and the lighter data and look at them both and work it out based on both those data points.

Fair enough. This is the first time I have ever not followed exact book data. So if I took 180 grain longshot data at a min of 8.5 what would you suggest as my start load for the 165?

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2014, 11:52
What is the min for the 155gr with the same powder? Go about 1/2 way between those two.

WiskyT
05-06-2014, 14:48
Personally, I wouldn't interpolate any data. For instance, the max for a 165 with TG in 40SW is 5.1 according to Hodgdon's website. This is way below the middle of 180 and 155 data. Sure, the 40SW has a smaller case volume, but it's not that much smaller and it runs at the same pressure.

IF it were me, I would either use 40SW 165 data or 10mm 180 data and leave it at that. Either of those two options will guarantee safety. Everything else is just a guess. Some guesses are better than others, and some will blow your gun up.

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2014, 15:10
From Hodgon Data

180 gr Bullet
Start is 5.4
Max is 6.0

155 gr Bullet
Start is 6.4
Max is 7.2

If you do the math and find the midpoint Start is 5.9gr and max is 6.6 DO NOT TAKE THIS LITERALLY. THIS IS JUST FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES.

So if you use the extrapolated starting of 5.9 gr you are still .1 gr UNDER the MAX load for a bullet that is 15grs heavier. I hardly think that will blow up the gun. It's still within the margin of safe for a much heavier bullet then you are using.

And that is ignoring the fact that he tested a batch at 6.8 grs. Nearly a full 1gr more then I just suggested.

WiskyT
05-06-2014, 15:16
From Hodgon Data

180 gr Bullet
Start is 5.4
Max is 6.0

155 gr Bullet
Start is 6.4
Max is 7.2

If you do the math and find the midpoint Start is 5.9gr and max is 6.6 DO NOT TAKE THIS LITERALLY. THIS IS JUST FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES.

So if you use the extrapolated starting of 5.9 gr you are still .1 gr UNDER the MAX load for a bullet that is 15grs heavier. I hardly think that will blow up the gun. It's still within the margin of safe for a much heavier bullet then you are using.

And that is ignoring the fact that he tested a batch at 6.9 grs. A full 1gr more then I just suggested.

"Probably" would be my response. The thing is, for what purpose? If he wants true high performance ammo, he needs specific data. If he wants serviceable ball ammo, using my suggestions will work fine and within pressure limits guaranteed.

Since he wants serviceable ammo that simply runs his gun, is safe, and hits the target, I would just use 40 data for 165's or 10mm data for 180's and call it good.

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2014, 15:35
4.2-4.7 gr TG for the 180gr in .40SW.
5.4-6.0 gr TG for the 180gr in 10mm.
Different bullets unfortunately.

Plus the 10mm is running about 3000psi higher pressure then the .40. So it's longer and running at higher pressure.

WiskyT
05-06-2014, 18:31
4.2-4.7 gr TG for the 180gr in .40SW.
5.4-6.0 gr TG for the 180gr in 10mm.
Different bullets unfortunately.

Plus the 10mm is running about 3000psi higher pressure then the .40. So it's longer and running at higher pressure.

Right, but I'm talking about 165 in 40 which Hodgdon DOES have data for, OR 180 in 10mm. Not 180 in both.

WiskyT
05-06-2014, 18:37
165 w/TG in 40SW 5.1 MAX. I think that would be a good all around shooter. Of course, so would the 180 10mm data, which is why I suggested that as well.

steve4102
05-06-2014, 21:57
Fair enough. This is the first time I have ever not followed exact book data. So if I took 180 grain longshot data at a min of 8.5 what would you suggest as my start load for the 165?

Nothing!
A minimum 180gr Charge will put you over the 1250fps Max rating for your Plated bullets.

Colorado4Wheel
05-06-2014, 22:24
I can't tell you how often I have extrapolated data. With odd lead bullet weights you have to. Its no big deal if you know what your doing.

Green Mountain Boy
05-07-2014, 05:44
Nothing!
A minimum 180gr Charge will put you over the 1250fps Max rating for your Plated bullets.

So there is no safe load for 165 with longshot? Even though there are factory loads that use the stuff? If that is the case would you please post the 165 grain titegroup data.

Ordered a Lyman manual but would like to get some more done this week sometime.

Thanks, GMB


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Colorado4Wheel
05-07-2014, 07:07
There is a difference between a load being safe and the bullets you picked being able to go that fast accurately. Just use the Hodgon data, start low and work it up. Don't crimp. Just remove the flare. Check for accuracy. There were no short cuts. It's all on you to figure out. No forum can answer question of just how fast they can really go and be accurate in your gun.

steve4102
05-07-2014, 12:03
So there is no safe load for 165 with longshot? Even though there are factory loads that use the stuff? If that is the case would you please post the 165 grain titegroup data.

Ordered a Lyman manual but would like to get some more done this week sometime.

Thanks, GMB

]

Nobody said that. It was said that your choice of bullet (Plated) is the problem. Pushing the 165 plated past recommenced velocities is the issue. You wish to load LS, go for it, just getcha a bullet that will accept LS velocities.

Green Mountain Boy
05-07-2014, 12:22
Nobody said that. It was said that your choice of bullet (Plated) is the problem. Pushing the 165 plated past recommenced velocities is the issue. You wish to load LS, go for it, just getcha a bullet that will accept LS velocities.

Ok so are you guys in agreement that the issue is accuracy potential not safety using the longshot data to work up?

If so then I will tweak till accuracy is acceptable. Again these are just going to be training rounds.


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WiskyT
05-07-2014, 13:46
Ok so are you guys in agreement that the issue is accuracy potential not safety using the longshot data to work up?

If so then I will tweak till accuracy is acceptable. Again these are just going to be training rounds.


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Yes, it's a quality issue, not a safety issue. Like most things in reloading, it depends. It depends on how thick the plating is. And, contrary to most information, it is not about velocity, but pressure. High pressure with a FAST powder will yield relatively low velocity and likely crappy accuracy. High velocity with a slow powder with fairly low pressure and you'll likely still get decent accuracy.

The heavier the plating the more pressure it can withstand and still give good accuracy. As a pracitcal matter, with start loads, with TG or LS, you will probably get decent accuracy. A max load of either will be iffy at best. In the end, only testing will tell you for sure and different people have different definitions of "accuracy".

For full effort loads, get true jacketed bullets and have appropriate data. For plinking etc, you can get a lot of things to work.

Green Mountain Boy
05-07-2014, 18:34
Same oal same brass same primer. 8.5 longshot was used and softer recoil. More of a push than a snap with the longer burn rate. Accuracy was silhouette shooting fine. Shot a 2.5 inch 5 shot group from 15 yards.




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WiskyT
05-07-2014, 18:59
Same oal same brass same primer. 8.5 longshot was used and softer recoil. More of a push than a snap with the longer burn rate. Accuracy was silhouette shooting fine. Shot a 2.5 inch 5 shot group from 15 yards.




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It looks like a winner. That accuracy is good by anyone's standards for a service pistol. Most importantly, it is completely safe. You could stop right there, or move up in 0.2 grain increments to the max and you'd still be safe, although accuracy might fall off. It might not and still shoot tight groups. Also, as blast and recoil increase, this can open your groups due to shooter error depending on just how much blast and flash there is.

In terms of velocity, it would just be a guess without a chrono, but based on the the 180 data posted by Hodgdon, I'd say they are probably running 1,200 or so.

You could probably run them down to 900 or so with TG for a load that is easier to shoot well and will still cycle the gun, but you seem to be doing fine with the hotter LS load. A good way to save money on brass might be to get a 40SW barrel since 40SW brass is pretty much free. You could shoot cast 180's at 800-900fps all day long for pennies a round with 3.5 or so of TG (check data).

Green Mountain Boy
05-07-2014, 19:04
Considering a conversion barrel. Got out of the 40 round because the 9 shot better for me. Was digging around and found enough factory 40 to justify the barrel purchase.


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WiskyT
05-07-2014, 19:09
Considering a conversion barrel. Got out of the 40 round because the 9 shot better for me. Was digging around and found enough factory 40 to justify the barrel purchase.


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Yeah, generally a 9 is easier to shoot well. I shot a plate rack all the time at my old club with a G17. From low ready I was typically doing it in 4.5 seconds. I was consistent because I could take my time and pretty much never missed. With a G22, shooting back to back to back with the g17, I was typically 5.1 or so and would occasionally miss which would send the whole thing into the 6's and 7's. It wasn't about accuracy at 10 meters, it was about recoil. It just takes less time to get back on the front sight with the lighter round and with the 40 I was rushing which caused me to screw up here and there.

steve4102
05-07-2014, 21:29
Ok so are you guys in agreement that the issue is accuracy potential not safety using the longshot data to work up?



If you think "Fragmentation" and separation is an Accuracy issue and not a safety issue then, yes, go for it.

Rainier and Berry's both warn of fragmentation and separation above 1250fps.

WiskyT
05-08-2014, 03:42
If you think "Fragmentation" and separation is an Accuracy issue and not a safety issue then, yes, go for it.

Rainier and Berry's both warn of fragmentation and separation above 1250fps.

First I'm hearing of this. Between both of these companies warning about this , can you post a link?

WeeWilly
05-08-2014, 07:45
I have never loaded Rainer but I have loaded plenty of Berry's and Xtreme plated. Before Berry's started offering heavier plating, I have pushed them hard enough in the lighter weights in 10mm to cause the jacket to strip. Accuracy starts to get poor well before you start seeing bits of plating out ahead of the shooting station. You get key holing and very bad accuracy in these circumstances. I have never seen anything that would obviously point to fragmentation.

The above results were well above 1400fps using lighter than my normal 180gr slug.

But let's get real for a moment. Do you think if it were a safety issue, the manufacturers would call their speed limit a "recommendation"? Maybe upgrading it to a "prohibition"? Do ya think?

PS - On the plating stripping (or separation), I have only seen that with my guns that have traditional rifling, I never saw it out of any of my Glock barrels. Also, I have never seen it with the newer heavier plated Berry's or any of the Xtreme plated bullets, which I have run 1500+ fps.

steve4102
05-08-2014, 09:17
http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q13-c1-Is_separation_a_problem_with_Plated_Bullets.aspx

WiskyT
05-08-2014, 09:39
http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q13-c1-Is_separation_a_problem_with_Plated_Bullets.aspx

I missed the safety issue in there.

WeeWilly
05-08-2014, 09:52
This thread reminds me of so many other regarding guns, reloading, basically anything that goes bang.

I see arguments where there is much "why take the risk?" and very little, "this is exactly what will happen and why it is or is not dangerous".

There is a very experienced instructor I know who teaches many combat tactics classes. This guy has a lot of real world combat experience as an operator. One day I was talking to him about one of my loads and he shook his head and starting laughing. I said, "What?" He said, "reloads? why take the risk?"

If you don't know enough to know what exactly can and cannot go wrong, you are definitely best off following the advice, "why take the risk?"

Colorado4Wheel
05-08-2014, 10:06
If the bullet has fragmentation or separation or whatever you want to call it....It's only going to effect the object being fired at. That is usually a piece of cardboard.

steve4102
05-08-2014, 17:22
If the bullet has fragmentation or separation or whatever you want to call it....It's only going to effect the object being fired at. That is usually a piece of cardboard.

Like I said, if you do not think separation is safety issue and only an accuracy issue then go for it. Your call. :dunno:

Green Mountain Boy
05-08-2014, 19:47
Like I said, if you do not think separation is safety issue and only an accuracy issue then go for it. Your call. :dunno:

Steve,
I am here to learn so please don't take this as a challenge. Please explain where the safety issue lies and what specifically is the danger? We seem to have differing opinions here. I am the FNG when it comes to this so help me understand the danger.


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Green Mountain Boy
05-09-2014, 10:35
just did a decent bit of reading on the subject

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-510296.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-682951.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/406796_Crimping_plated_bullets_.html

dougader
05-09-2014, 16:21
You're running your load at about 1200 fps. You're fine. If these are just practice loads, as you say, then keep them around 900 - 1200 fps. No big deal.

Save your high velocity loads for jacketed bullets or just use factory for your SD ammunition.

There is a difference between separation and fragmentation. Separation is what the link to Berry's was talking about and it just means some of the plating is coming off. That's where accuracy will drop off. It's going to take a lot more pressure and velocity to get you into a dangerous situation, IMO.

I've always just ordered jacketed from Zero or PD as the price difference with plated bullets was never enough to make me switch. Sometimes plated run more. For real savings, lead or coated lead bullets are available. Be prepared for a bit of smoke from lubed lead bullets.

Other than the original mess up with your TG calculation, sounds to me like you did good. Remember, less powder with a heavier bullet. Have fun and be safe.

Green Mountain Boy
05-10-2014, 07:47
You're running your load at about 1200 fps. You're fine. If these are just practice loads, as you say, then keep them around 900 - 1200 fps. No big deal.

Save your high velocity loads for jacketed bullets or just use factory for your SD ammunition.

There is a difference between separation and fragmentation. Separation is what the link to Berry's was talking about and it just means some of the plating is coming off. That's where accuracy will drop off. It's going to take a lot more pressure and velocity to get you into a dangerous situation, IMO.

I've always just ordered jacketed from Zero or PD as the price difference with plated bullets was never enough to make me switch. Sometimes plated run more. For real savings, lead or coated lead bullets are available. Be prepared for a bit of smoke from lubed lead bullets.

Other than the original mess up with your TG calculation, sounds to me like you did good. Remember, less powder with a heavier bullet. Have fun and be safe.

Ok. So does fragmentation present a danger to the firearm or the shooter?

Colorado4Wheel
05-10-2014, 08:04
One guy says yes, everyone else is saying no. Your going to have to start finding your way around these things. On the internet you will find someone is always going to say the opposite of the primary group. You get to pick who you listen too. It doesn't mean the majority is always right either.

But ask yourself, does some very thin plating flaking off the lead bullet cause a safety or a accuracy issue?

Green Mountain Boy
05-10-2014, 10:05
One guy says yes, everyone else is saying no. Your going to have to start finding your way around these things. On the internet you will find someone is always going to say the opposite of the primary group. You get to pick who you listen too. It doesn't mean the majority is always right either.

But ask yourself, does some very thin plating flaking off the lead bullet cause a safety or a accuracy issue?


Colorado4Wheel: I am simply trying to get steve to explain to me where he sees the safety concern. I will draw my own conclusions for sure I just want to here This is the concern I have and here is why I have it

Colorado4Wheel
05-10-2014, 10:40
So when you asked DOUG and not Steve and the other Steve already said he thinks it is I kinda thought you just didn't get it. No one is going to change their mind and Steve already said he thinks it's a safety issue.

Green Mountain Boy
05-10-2014, 11:04
So when you asked DOUG and not Steve and the other Steve already said he thinks it is I kinda thought you just didn't get it. No one is going to change their mind and Steve already said he thinks it's a safety issue.

I am not trying to change minds. I am just trying to learn. I was hoping Doug would provide a different prospective. What I get so far is this.

Depending on the speed the jacket can separate from the lead core which could produce an accuracy issue. It could also change the way the round effects the target. The core could also become a liability and strike something other than your intended target.

What I don't see is the safety issue. If I am by myself using these on my range and there are no chances of using this round for defense. I was wondering if the jacket could somehow separate in the barrel causing a shooters safety concern.

Regards, GMB

Colorado4Wheel
05-10-2014, 11:09
There is NO safety issue from the plating (which is very thin) being deformed by over speed and stripping away. BUT if that happens the rounds are going to lead horribly and be inaccurate. If you shoot enough bullets in a horribly leaded barrel you can get an over pressure situation. So I guess the issue could BECOME a safety issue but it will take a while for that to happen.

dougader
05-10-2014, 13:11
I don't think the plating coming off is a big deal at all. Just make sure you don't crimp too much and cut through the plating and/or - if your velocity is too high back off your powder charge.

The frag issue is one I never really heard of until the 454 Casull had been out for several years. It can run at upwards of 65,000 psi, similar to a magnum rifle. Most ammo manufacturers keep their loads down around 55k psi to avoid problems with sticky extraction and bullets pulling loose from the sharp recoil.

I can't remember if it was in Speer 14 or earlier when they started mentioning the problem of using "soft" bullets with high pressure loads in 454, but it's definitely in Speer 14. They have separate loading data for their bullets, based on the pressure of the loads. Only their 300 grain Speer Golt Dot loads, using Winchester brass, are listed with top end loads.

I don't know how it would affect things in a semi-auto, but in revolvers when you have the bullet and jacket separate violently - or "frag" - the bullet can come apart and cause damage to the forcing cone and - I'm guessing - cause early wear and cracked forcing cones. But then you see cracked forcing cones with heavy charges of ball powder, light bullets and high pressures in other guns, too, like S&W 19's/66's in 357 magnum as well.

Your 180 @ 1200 fps isn't going anywhere this level of pressure or velocity. Your max loads shouldn't be over about 35k psi.

This is why I think separation, where the plating might come off, is not a serious problem and may only affect accuracy of your load. As I stated earlier, just watch your crimping process and keep velocities in line with Berry/Ranier/Extreme remmendations (1200 - 1250 fps) and you'll be fine.

Green Mountain Boy
05-10-2014, 16:33
All fast work from the holster. Started back at 25 yards then 15 yards then 7. I am happy with the results.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i369/vermonter2/ADA3CC5F-807D-447D-9FBF-EA7D6FC961D3_zpssw23y5ks.jpg

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