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norton
05-11-2014, 06:45
Ran out of Lee Liquid Alox, so I tried some JPW on my .45 acp cast bullets. Tumble lubed them with straight JPW.
I ran about 100 rounds through my FN 45 yesterday.
I had some lead streaks in the barrel, but copper Choreboy and some scrubbing took care of that.
I run these Lyman mold bullets without sizing.
I know the general consensus here is that size of bullet is more important then lube used.
Any of you lube with JPW? Are you cutting it with mineral spirits or adding Alox?

fredj338
05-11-2014, 07:53
The guys over at cast boolits are mixing with Alox. You might get by just running low vel loads like sub 800ps.

SJ 40
05-11-2014, 09:32
The guys over at cast boolits are mixing with Alox. You might get by just running low vel loads like sub 800ps.When mixed with a bit of alox or LLA and just enough mineral spirits to liquify it works,no leading,easy to apply. SJ 40

WiskyT
05-11-2014, 19:31
It's horrible. I have determined it is an internet myth that JPW is good for lubing bullets. Aside from minor leading that you get with the groupspeak endorsed 45/45/10, the accuracy goes right in the crapper. I have shot it back to back with identical loads in low pressure 38spl and 9 and 40 loads and the group sizes doubled. Believe me, Lee tried everything when he was looking for a cheap easy lube and he found one thing that worked best, Zeibart rustproofing. He re-branded it as Liquid Alox and the rest is history.

It's one of my big pet peeves about the cast "boolits" forum. Just because someone has a million posts on there, what they say becomes Gospel. 45/45/10 adds nothing to LA. It doesn't save money, it doesn't save time, it doesn't improve performance, and the way some of them heat the mixture (which merely cooks off the "10" anyway) is downright dangerous.

I guess if you were in a jam, straight JPW will get the bullets out of the barrel without too much to scrub out, but I recommend people just buy a jug or two of White Label "Xlox" so they don't run out of it in the first place.

I'm not trying to beat up on Norton. He tried something out and started a discussion about it. That's what we do here. I just get annoyed by some of the stuff I see on CB forum and Brian Enos forum as well (now that I'm on a rant).

dkf
05-11-2014, 19:42
I was going to try the JPW mix everyone was bragging up on CB. Then I saw a small tub of JPW was like $8 or $9. No thanks. I'll use the Alox that came with my sizers while I experiment with different coatings.

Colorado4Wheel
05-11-2014, 22:02
It's horrible. I have determined it is an internet myth that JPW is good for lubing bullets. Aside from minor leading that you get with the groupspeak endorsed 45/45/10, the accuracy goes right in the crapper. I have shot it back to back with identical loads in low pressure 38spl and 9 and 40 loads and the group sizes doubled. Believe me, Lee tried everything when he was looking for a cheap easy lube and he found one thing that worked best, Zeibart rustproofing. He re-branded it as Liquid Alox and the rest is history.

It's one of my big pet peeves about the cast "boolits" forum. Just because someone has a million posts on there, what they say becomes Gospel. 45/45/10 adds nothing to LA. It doesn't save money, it doesn't save time, it doesn't improve performance, and the way some of them heat the mixture (which merely cooks off the "10" anyway) is downright dangerous.

I guess if you were in a jam, straight JPW will get the bullets out of the barrel without too much to scrub out, but I recommend people just buy a jug or two of White Label "Xlox" so they don't run out of it in the first place.

I'm not trying to beat up on Norton. He tried something out and started a discussion about it. That's what we do here. I just get annoyed by some of the stuff I see on CB forum and Brian Enos forum as well (now that I'm on a rant).


There JPW recipe is a PITA. Just use lube. I am going to switch over to a new lube. I have used Magma lube for years. But its very stiff and needs a strong hearer. I mixed it with 30% ish of some NRA lube. It was much better, not too sticky. Very nice. Much easier to lube with the sizer. Alox work I guess. I never liked it. But it works for a ton of people. Why mess with success.

fredj338
05-12-2014, 00:42
There JPW recipe is a PITA. Just use lube. I am going to switch over to a new lube. I have used Magma lube for years. But its very stiff and needs a strong hearer. I mixed it with 30% ish of some NRA lube. It was much better, not too sticky. Very nice. Much easier to lube with the sizer. Alox work I guess. I never liked it. But it works for a ton of people. Why mess with success.

Mix the magma 1-1 w/ white label BAC. It is pretty close to their cr. I just use their cr, but if you have a lot of magma left like I do?
I have dabbled at making m own lubes, just because, but if you have to buy all the ingredients, not really worth the time, effort & $$$$ IMO.
As to the 45/45/10, I do not use it but it must be viable, WhiteLabel is selling it & he doesn't sell stuff that doesn't work.

Colorado4Wheel
05-12-2014, 07:22
Mix the magma 1-1 w/ white label BAC. It is pretty close to their cr. I just use their cr, but if you have a lot of magma left like I do?
I have dabbled at making m own lubes, just because, but if you have to buy all the ingredients, not really worth the time, effort & $$$$ IMO.
As to the 45/45/10, I do not use it but it must be viable, WhiteLabel is selling it & he doesn't sell stuff that doesn't work.

Have you used Magma Lube? I really like the Magma/NRA lube mix. NRA lube is basically the same as 50/50. I would love it if Carnuba Red is the same basic stiffness as my home brew. I am tired of the Magma. It's much stiffer then it needs to be. The less stiff mix I made is much nicer to work with. I am out of NRA and I really want to switch to something similar to what I made with out have to make it myself.

WiskyT
05-12-2014, 09:00
Mix the magma 1-1 w/ white label BAC. It is pretty close to their cr. I just use their cr, but if you have a lot of magma left like I do?
I have dabbled at making m own lubes, just because, but if you have to buy all the ingredients, not really worth the time, effort & $$$$ IMO.
As to the 45/45/10, I do not use it but it must be viable, WhiteLabel is selling it & he doesn't sell stuff that doesn't work.

More likely they are making it because people buy it, not because it works. Herbal tea doesn't cure migraines, but people sell it for that because people will buy it.

fredj338
05-12-2014, 09:03
More likely they are making it because people buy it, not because it works. Herbal tea doesn't cure migraines, but people sell it for that because people will buy it.

Not really the way he operates. He developed most of his lubes, as a rep to maintain. There are far more positive users of that lube than negative. I don't tumble lube, but far too many do with good results to discount it as bs.:dunno: i am not an Alox lover, far too sticky, even in 50/50 format for me, but to each his own.

fredj338
05-12-2014, 09:11
Have you used Magma Lube? I really like the Magma/NRA lube mix. NRA lube is basically the same as 50/50. I would love it if Carnuba Red is the same basic stiffness as my home brew. I am tired of the Magma. It's much stiffer then it needs to be. The less stiff mix I made is much nicer to work with. I am out of NRA and I really want to switch to something similar to what I made with out have to make it myself.

I ran the magma for years in my star, works fine but a bit brittle for colder temps. The cr needs about 105deg to flow well, vs 120deg+ for magma. Has a high enough melt point to do well when temps rise & isn't sticky like 50/50 once cooled. Their BAC is too sticky for my liking, needs no heat unless temps drop below 75deg or so. So I mixed some with magma I still have, works well enough. WL will send you some sample 1/2 sticks to try, just contact the, great folks to work with.
Randyrat, on the castboolitforum, sells a good stick lube called Tac. It needs about 90 deb to flow under pressure, slightly tacky when dry.

Colorado4Wheel
05-12-2014, 10:40
I ran the magma for years in my star, works fine but a bit brittle for colder temps. The cr needs about 105deg to flow well, vs 120deg+ for magma. Has a high enough melt point to do well when temps rise & isn't sticky like 50/50 once cooled. Their BAC is too sticky for my liking, needs no heat unless temps drop below 75deg or so. So I mixed some with magma I still have, works well enough. WL will send you some sample 1/2 sticks to try, just contact the, great folks to work with.
Randyrat, on the castboolitforum, sells a good stick lube called Tac. It needs about 90 deb to flow under pressure, slightly tacky when dry.

CR sounds perfect to me. Not as stiff and slightly lower temp, Magma Does get brittle. Prefer the softer stuff I made. Thanks.

norton
05-12-2014, 17:38
It's horrible. I have determined it is an internet myth that JPW is good for lubing bullets. Aside from minor leading that you get with the groupspeak endorsed 45/45/10, the accuracy goes right in the crapper. I have shot it back to back with identical loads in low pressure 38spl and 9 and 40 loads and the group sizes doubled. Believe me, Lee tried everything when he was looking for a cheap easy lube and he found one thing that worked best, Zeibart rustproofing. He re-branded it as Liquid Alox and the rest is history.

It's one of my big pet peeves about the cast "boolits" forum. Just because someone has a million posts on there, what they say becomes Gospel. 45/45/10 adds nothing to LA. It doesn't save money, it doesn't save time, it doesn't improve performance, and the way some of them heat the mixture (which merely cooks off the "10" anyway) is downright dangerous.

I guess if you were in a jam, straight JPW will get the bullets out of the barrel without too much to scrub out, but I recommend people just buy a jug or two of White Label "Xlox" so they don't run out of it in the first place.

I'm not trying to beat up on Norton. He tried something out and started a discussion about it. That's what we do here. I just get annoyed by some of the stuff I see on CB forum and Brian Enos forum as well (now that I'm on a rant).

Wisky, is that what Lee Alox is? Zeibart Rustproofing? I should have scrapped off all of the Zeibart from my old truck before I junked it. :supergrin:

I agree that Alox and JPW are messy. They get your hands and fingers dirty when loading rounds in magazines, not to mention if you drop them in the dirt. I have not had good luck with lead bullets I have purchased in the past that are lubed. They seem to leave lots of lead residue. Of course it may be they were undersized. I never purchased any lead bullets for reloading except in .45 Colt. Maybe the lube that fills the grease grooves is too hard?

BTW, I tumble lubed JPW with alox last night, will load the 100 rounds and see what difference I see from this combination.

WiskyT
05-12-2014, 18:03
Wisky, is that what Lee Alox is? Zeibart Rustproofing? I should have scrapped off all of the Zeibart from my old truck before I junked it. :supergrin:

I agree that Alox and JPW are messy. They get your hands and fingers dirty when loading rounds in magazines, not to mention if you drop them in the dirt. I have not had good luck with lead bullets I have purchased in the past that are lubed. They seem to leave lots of lead residue. Of course it may be they were undersized. I never purchased any lead bullets for reloading except in .45 Colt. Maybe the lube that fills the grease grooves is too hard?

BTW, I tumble lubed JPW with alox last night, will load the 100 rounds and see what difference I see from this combination.

Now you're on to a different topic, leading. You came to the right place for that discussion as I don't see wives' tales on this board regarding leading. Fred and Zombie have lot's of experience with 45 Colt.

Without the load specifics, and never having loaded 45 Colt, I can go with a few generalities. Many 45 Colts have tight chamber throats. This is done to try and keep velocties with factory jacketed bullets high enough to avoid bullets lodged in the bore. Standard 45 Colt jacketed loads run as slow as 650fps which can stick a bullet in a bore. The tight throats swage the bullet down and they then lead.

Store bought cast bullets are often too hard. 12kpsi or so for 45 Colt and the bullets should be around 6-8bhn. Also, manufactured bullets are often too small.

Pressure can cause leading, high pressure with a fast powder can be a real mess. But, 45 Colt runs at low pressure, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Lee says use the biggest bullet that will reliably chamber in a loaded round. The gun will size the bullet. My experience shows he is right. A big soft bullet, coated in Liquid Alox, loaded at 45 Colt pressure, shouldn't lead ASSuming there is nothing funky going on with the throats.

I'm sure other lubes will work well, but LA is the only one I've used other than LA mixed with JPW.

WiskyT
05-12-2014, 19:58
There are far more positive users of that lube than negative.

There's a term for that, "groupthink". You see it all the time with things like gun lubes and other concoctions. Common Core is groupthink and so is climate change. Both of those are failing big time right now. Soon, everyone will be running to next year's "next best thing" and all the stuff people put so much weight in will be last year's "next best thing".

fredj338
05-13-2014, 12:35
There's a term for that, "groupthink". You see it all the time with things like gun lubes and other concoctions. Common Core is groupthink and so is climate change. Both of those are failing big time right now. Soon, everyone will be running to next year's "next best thing" and all the stuff people put so much weight in will be last year's "next best thing".

Yes & know, Climate change is an assumption based on corrupt computer modeling. Many supporters make huge amounts of $$ off pushing the agenda. A bullet lube is pretty empirical, shoot it, it leads or not, accurate or not, simple. Why anyone would report success over failure, when they have nothing to gain, I just don't see it. I don't use either as a lube, but until I see more than one guy, even a nice, smart guy like you condemn it, I would certainly try It before made a decision.:dunno:

WiskyT
05-13-2014, 19:40
Yes & know, Climate change is an assumption based on corrupt computer modeling. Many supporters make huge amounts of $$ off pushing the agenda. A bullet lube is pretty empirical, shoot it, it leads or not, accurate or not, simple. Why anyone would report success over failure, when they have nothing to gain, I just don't see it. I don't use either as a lube, but until I see more than one guy, even a nice, smart guy like you condemn it, I would certainly try It before made a decision.:dunno:

Because they don't know any better. Most people don't shoot their handguns past 5 yards and couldn't tell the difference.

Here is the proof that 45/45/10 is baloney. What is the point of the "10"? JPW is already wax and mineral spirits. They then add more mineral spirits to it and then cook it to thicken it which merely cooks off the mineral spirits! It's like adding water to a sauce and then reducing the sauce to thicken it.

fredj338
05-13-2014, 21:21
Again, I don't tumble lube, but if it works for more than one or to shooters, hard to argue. This goes in the same category as the LFCD IMO. Try it, as you did, if it works great, if not try something see.

WiskyT
05-14-2014, 03:09
Again, I don't tumble lube, but if it works for more than one or to shooters, hard to argue. This goes in the same category as the LFCD IMO. Try it, as you did, if it works great, if not try something see.

What I'm saying is it doesn't work for them and that they are too ignorant to know the difference or too caught up in the group think to admit it.

Rustyinfla
05-14-2014, 06:00
The best lube I've ever used.

http://lbtmolds.com/lube.shtml

LBT soft lube can be melted for pan lubing, run thru a sizer, or

spread on with your fingers.

fredj338
05-14-2014, 08:39
The best lube I've ever used.

http://lbtmolds.com/lube.shtml

LBT soft lube can be melted for pan lubing, run thru a sizer, or

spread on with your fingers.

Yes it is but stupidly expensive. The white label, just as good at 1/2 the cost.

norton
05-14-2014, 14:21
I tried the gulf wax, STP and Vaseline with crayon blend for pan lube.
It worked ok but its just too slow.
Probably ok for rifle bullets you aren't going to shoot in volume, but otherwise I will pass.

WiskyT
05-14-2014, 17:13
Have you tried LLA with the rifle loads? I haven't, but I understand it is suitable for them as well.

fredj338
05-14-2014, 17:38
I tried the gulf wax, STP and Vaseline with crayon blend for pan lube.
It worked ok but its just too slow.
Probably ok for rifle bullets you aren't going to shoot in volume, but otherwise I will pass.

Another reason I use a Star & suitable lube, it's just faster than most anything else. With no gc, you can do 1500/hr start to finish & ready to load. I don't do many lead bullet/rifle loads, 45-70, but if I had to do a lot, then I would spend the $$. I like all my bullets the same size, prevents issues with mixed brass & bullets that vary +/- 0.001".
A friend just got a 300BO for his AR & I am going to try some of the high temp paint "plating". No lube, spray & bake dry. Whether they need sizing we'll see. Stay tuned.

norton
05-14-2014, 19:12
Have you tried LLA with the rifle loads? I haven't, but I understand it is suitable for them as well.

No, I don't cast any rifle bullets. Except black powder muzzleloaders (round balls).

WiskyT
05-14-2014, 19:15
No, I don't cast any rifle bullets. Except black powder muzzleloaders (round balls).

A black magic affair involving brimstone of which I know nothing about.

Colorado4Wheel
05-14-2014, 21:07
I load 308 with gas checks and shoot them out of M1A. I know....sacrilege. But it works fine. I also Gas Check with the Star. Another thing people said not to bother trying.

fredj338
05-15-2014, 13:25
I load 308 with gas checks and shoot them out of M1A. I know....sacrilege. But it works fine. I also Gas Check with the Star. Another thing people said not to bother trying.

It's not that you can't do gc on the Star, it's just a PITA compared to a RCBS/Lyman. How does the gas system on the M1a look after firing 100rds of lubed lead? I am going to exp with a friends AR/300BO, some new painted coatings instead of lube. If it works, then I would use them in my M1 & consider a 300BO upper. Being able to shoot cheap/free cast in a battle rifle would be great!:supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
05-15-2014, 15:05
It looks fine. You honestly can not tell after 50. Most I have shot is about 75 in a session.

Colorado4Wheel
05-15-2014, 15:45
Is it really that hard. I have only done it on the Star. Doesn't seem so bad.

fredj338
05-15-2014, 18:07
On the Star, you have to place the gc firmly then size. Sometimes the pressure will push the gc off. Why a RCBS/Lyman us easier, the base punch insures the gc stays in place while lubing. On the Star, I do gc in two steps; place & seat the gc w/o any pressure/lube. Then run them again with lube. It's hit or miss, depends on the fit of the gc to the base.

Colorado4Wheel
05-15-2014, 19:50
Really. I just put the GC on the base of the bullet and size it. No big deal at all.

norton
05-15-2014, 19:57
A black magic affair involving brimstone of which I know nothing about.

You should try it. I have built two from Track of the Wolf components. One is a northwest trade gun-a smoothbore flintlock, the other a southern poor boy in .40 cal, also a flintlock. A real challenge to shoot.

mc1911
05-16-2014, 14:48
I have used it straight for 255 grain cast loads in 45 Colt at 900 fps and it worked fine.

It might not work for everything but it might be worth a try.

norton
05-17-2014, 13:42
Shot 100 rounds today of the 45-45-10 mixture.
Slightly less leading then straight JPW.
Couple of passes with chore boy wrapped nylon brush, and its clean again.
My load
Lyman cast bullet from range scrap 225 grain #452374
Green Dot 5.2 grains
My average velocity was 766 fps.

My unscientific findings. For tumble lube alox is best straight.
JPW will work in a pinch. Its better if cut with alox.

ymmv.