What causes this? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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attrapereves
05-12-2014, 13:13
I noticed that some of my 30-06 reloads appear to have copper or brass shaving near the case mouth. It's difficult to tell if the case or the bullet is shaving.

Has anyone had this problem before? The bullets are Hornady 165gr SP boat tail.

http://i.imgur.com/zpfgQGK.jpg?1

dkf
05-12-2014, 13:16
Looks like the copper was shaved off of the bullet when seating. Not good and it can negatively affect accuracy. Put an adequate chamfer on the inside of the case mouth.

concretus
05-12-2014, 13:35
Looks like the copper was shaved off of the bullet when seating. Not good and it can negatively affect accuracy. Put an adequate chamfer on the inside of the case mouth.

+1
After you trim your brass, us a chamfer tool to bevel the inside and outside edges of the case mouth. The beveled edge will fall into the cannelure when you crimp it

fredj338
05-12-2014, 13:38
First, you almost NEVER need to crimp rifle bullets. Yes, chamfer the inside of the case mouth, outside, just remove any burrs, no chamfer. Bullets with nicked or shaved bases never shoot well.

concretus
05-12-2014, 14:04
First, you almost NEVER need to crimp rifle bullets. Yes, chamfer the inside of the case mouth, outside, just remove any burrs, no chamfer. Bullets with nicked or shaved bases never shoot well.

I agree I don't crimp for any of my bolt guns. The only one I crimp is my reloads that match M80 specs for my LR 308... The guy mentioned hornady 165 SPBT which as far as I can remember has a cannelure and if you look at the case pictured looks like It has a factory type crimp.....

fredj338
05-12-2014, 17:45
I agree I don't crimp for any of my bolt guns. The only one I crimp is my reloads that match M80 specs for my LR 308... The guy mentioned hornady 165 SPBT which as far as I can remember has a cannelure and if you look at the case pictured looks like It has a factory type crimp.....

Well you really should not crimp unless there is a cannelure or crimp groove. Even then, you still need a good chamfer inside the neck top prevent bas scraping.

attrapereves
05-12-2014, 18:32
No crimp on these. The markings must be from the brass when they were factory loaded.

WeeWilly
05-12-2014, 22:25
Did you chamfer the care mouth?

Wil Terry
05-13-2014, 07:48
AND THE SEATING DIE is probably mal-adjusted with the crimp ring touching the end of the case mouth and not allowing it to expand as the bullet is being seated. The crimp ring should be kept out of the way by being ONE full die turn above the case mouth.

Gpruitt54
05-16-2014, 11:27
This is a great thread. I am about to start reloading rifle bullets for an AR. First a comment and then some questions.

For what the OP described and showed in his photo (excellent photo buy the way), for a handgun load, I would have expected the issue to be not enough case mouth flare. I did this on my first few handgun reloads.
Questions:



Why is this not the case with rifle rounds?
I have started prepping (tumbling and de-crimping) a few .223 cases. Is there a case mouth flaring step with rifle dies?
Why do you crimp Semi-Auto rifle rounds but not bolt gun rounds?

fredj338
05-16-2014, 13:07
This is a great thread. I am about to start reloading rifle bullets for an AR. First a comment and then some questions.

For what the OP described and showed in his photo (excellent photo buy the way), for a handgun load, I would have expected the issue to be not enough case mouth flare. I did this on my first few handgun reloads.
Questions:



Why is this not the case with rifle rounds?
I have started prepping (tumbling and de-crimping) a few .223 cases. Is there a case mouth flaring step with rifle dies?
Why do you crimp Semi-Auto rifle rounds but not bolt gun rounds?

Because unless you are loading lead bullets there is not need to flare the case mouth & in fact, (2) die sets do NOT have a flare die. They rely on a good chamfer on the inside of the case mouth.
I do not crimp semiauto rounds, proper neck tension is enough to prevent setback. Some do, feeling that the self feeding action will cause a bullet setback. Maybe, maybe not, but my match bullets have no crimp ring or cannelure, so no crimp. Some say the LFCD for rifles aids accuracy, we'll see, I bought one for my AR rounds.:dunno: I do crimp rifle rounds for the heavy big bores. The recoil can actually drive the bullet back into the case. Really bad if you need that 2nd or 3rd shot to stop a dangerous animal charge.

concretus
05-16-2014, 13:13
This is a great thread. I am about to start reloading rifle bullets for an AR. First a comment and then some questions.

For what the OP described and showed in his photo (excellent photo buy the way), for a handgun load, I would have expected the issue to be not enough case mouth flare. I did this on my first few handgun reloads.
Questions:



Why is this not the case with rifle rounds?
I have started prepping (tumbling and de-crimping) a few .223 cases. Is there a case mouth flaring step with rifle dies?
Why do you crimp Semi-Auto rifle rounds but not bolt gun rounds?


I only crimp on my AR with a bullet that has a cannelure. They are pulled 147gr FMJ and I load them to meet M80 specs for plinking. For my 308 target and hunting loads for my AR and my bolt guns the bullet does not have a cannelure so a friction hold is all That is needed. Rifle dies do not flare the case mouths.... What bullet are you planning to used in your 223 loads?

Gpruitt54
05-16-2014, 15:36
I only crimp on my AR with a bullet that has a cannelure. They are pulled 147gr FMJ and I load them to meet M80 specs for plinking. For my 308 target and hunting loads for my AR and my bolt guns the bullet does not have a cannelure so a friction hold is all That is needed. Rifle dies do not flare the case mouths.... What bullet are you planning to used in your 223 loads?

Currently, I have Hornady 100, 55gr soft tip with a cannelure. I will be trying out several bullet types and designs to see what works best for me. Have not loaded any rifle rounds yet.

fredj338
05-16-2014, 16:30
Currently, I have Hornady 100, 55gr soft tip with a cannelure. I will be trying out several bullet types and designs to see what works best for me. Have not loaded any rifle rounds yet.

I would start out NOT crimping, then try a light crimp if you feel the need. The only bullet setback I ahev ever had in an AR was with some of my home swaged 56gr. One bullet may have been just 0.0005"smaller.:dunno:

concretus
05-17-2014, 09:56
No crimp on these. The markings must be from the brass when they were factory loaded.

Did you full length size or neck size your brass? if the marks on the case mouth were like that when the factory loaded them then you didn't trim the brass; correct?

concretus
05-17-2014, 10:08
Crimping may not be required. For semi-autos; full length size and trim your brass, chamfer the case mouth, make primer pockets clean and flash holes uniform, Mic your OAL, to insure mag fit and bullet set back off the lands. You can be a little tighter / closer tolerances with a bolt gun but with semi autos, functionality is a must and then your accuracy will come with the right bullet/powder combination....

attrapereves
05-17-2014, 12:53
Did you full length size or neck size your brass? if the marks on the case mouth were like that when the factory loaded them then you didn't trim the brass; correct?

Full length sized. Brass was trimmed, but very little as it was only slightly over spec.

I bought a Lyman chamfer tool that is 200% better than the crappy Lee one.

Gpruitt54
05-21-2014, 11:33
I hope to make some .223 rounds over the holiday weekend. My first round to two will be with no powder or primer, must to be sure I got and measurements right. If I need to pull a .223 round, will a standard bullet puller work on a rifle round; with or without a crimp???

Gpruitt54
05-21-2014, 11:40
I would start out NOT crimping, then try a light crimp if you feel the need. The only bullet setback I ahev ever had in an AR was with some of my home swaged 56gr. One bullet may have been just 0.0005"smaller.:dunno:

I saw someone on Youtube testing the need to apply a crimp to a rifle round by pressing the tip somewhat hard, against a surface to see if it would set back. Does this sound like a reasonable test?

How would you determine the need to crimp or not?

F106 Fan
05-21-2014, 13:04
I hope to make some .223 rounds over the holiday weekend. My first round to two will be with no powder or primer, must to be sure I got and measurements right. If I need to pull a .223 round, will a standard bullet puller work on a rifle round; with or without a crimp???

What do you define as a standard bullet puller?

If you mean 'ballistic hammer' then, yes, it will work. Crimped rounds may take more whacks.

If you mean Hornady collet style puller - yes, it will work very well. I prefer the collet style for pulling rifle bullets. However, I don't reuse them.

Richard

F106 Fan
05-21-2014, 13:10
I saw someone on Youtube testing the need to apply a crimp to a rifle round by pressing the tip somewhat hard, against a surface to see if it would set back. Does this sound like a reasonable test?

How would you determine the need to crimp or not?

Load up a magazine, shoot a few rounds and then measure the remaining rounds. Did any of the bullets set back? If so, you don't have enough neck tension OR you need a crimp.

Let the rifle chamber a round. Eject it and measure. If the bullet was pushed back, you don't have enough neck tension OR you need a crimp.

FWIW, if you use a full length resizing die, and for autoloaders, you should, you will have no control over neck tension. There are neck sizing dies with interchangeable bushings (Redding) but these are really for precision rifle (bolt guns).

ETA: Well, there are different neck sizing buttons and some folks manipulate the diameter but that would be an advanced topic.

Fred gave you the best answer. My answer will be the simplest: If the bullet has a cannelure, crimp it. If not, don't. If the bullet doesn't have a cannelure and seems to get set back, use a different bullet.

I am using Hornady 55 gr FMJ with a cannelure so I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die to make the crimp. The die works very well and the crimp looks just like the Federal factory rounds.

Richard

Gpruitt54
05-21-2014, 15:14
Load up a magazine, shoot a few rounds and then measure the remaining rounds. Did any of the bullets set back? If so, you don't have enough neck tension OR you need a crimp.

Let the rifle chamber a round. Eject it and measure. If the bullet was pushed back, you don't have enough neck tension OR you need a crimp.

FWIW, if you use a full length resizing die, and for autoloaders, you should, you will have no control over neck tension. There are neck sizing dies with interchangeable bushings (Redding) but these are really for precision rifle (bolt guns).

ETA: Well, there are different neck sizing buttons and some folks manipulate the diameter but that would be an advanced topic.

Fred gave you the best answer. My answer will be the simplest: If the bullet has a cannelure, crimp it. If not, don't. If the bullet doesn't have a cannelure and seems to get set back, use a different bullet.

I am using Hornady 55 gr FMJ with a cannelure so I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die to make the crimp. The die works very well and the crimp looks just like the Federal factory rounds.

Richard

I to purchased Hornady 55gr FMJ with the cannelure. I also have the Lee factory crimp die. In addition, probably did not need both, but I also purchased the Lee Collet die set for the neck sizing capability.

I'll be trying these new toys during my first ever rifle reloading session this holiday weekend.
My brass has been sorted (5.56/.223),
Crimps removed from the 5.56 NATO brass,
Cases were lubed the spray-on Cabala’s brand,
I've run the brass through the resizing die,
Those that needed it were trimmed and deburred,

Boy-o-boy, Rifles round need a lot of work prep.
Need to tumble to clean up the lube,

Need to tumble to clean the case lube,
Prime I'll be hand priming for this first time
Charge (hand charging using Accurate 2230)
Press in a bullet.
Maybe crimp

Unless I am missing something, that is the plan. Did I miss anything?

PCJim
05-21-2014, 16:19
I saw someone on Youtube testing the need to apply a crimp to a rifle round by pressing the tip somewhat hard, against a surface to see if it would set back. Does this sound like a reasonable test?
....

This is what you will hear referred to as the "benchtop press test". It has been used for 30+ years as a means to determine whether there is enough neck purchase on a bullet (ie to determine potential bullet setback). Measure the COL of a finished round, then press it firmly against a bench top (or other solid surface) with your thumb and apply as much pressure as you can reasonably assert, then remeasure COL. If no change, you have adequate neck purchase on the bullet.

fredj338
05-21-2014, 18:06
As PCJ notes, pretty common practice. It supposedly takes more than 40# of pressure, so you could use a suitable scale & press down on that. I have had one setback in my AR, it was with my home swaged bullets. So maybe slightly undersized, didn't measure everyone, or something to do with the brass jacket vs brass case. I am going to give the LFCD a try to see if it helps or hurts anything.