.357 sig as a defense round

[yoni]

I was going to build a 9x23 pistol, but now have become more interested in getting a .357 sig barrel for my Glock 35.

I want to use it as my carry gun so I started looking on the web and after looking I now don't know. It seems that the .357 sig either has less expansion than a good 9mm round or it fragments.

I still am interested in this round as it has potential, what it looks like to me is that they have yet to develope a bullet that can take advantage of it's speed.

Help me by pointing me to evidence of it's perfomance both in gel and for real.

yoni

[Scott E.G.]

Here is some good testing data using bare gel and layers of denim over the gel.

http://www.ammolab.com/Test%20Results.htm

Against denim you'll notice that it takes a +P round in the 9mm to come close to the expansion of the .357 sig. Some loads will fragment, but if you use Speer GD or Ranger T you will get good expansion and good overall performance against stuff like windshields, plywood, or a car door.

[Squadman]

Yoni, here is another site: http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/
squadman

[eminem]

for home defense i wouldn't think of grabbing anything but my glock 31. you grab a glock 17 to stop someone, you grab a glock 31 to end someone. just my 2 cents.

[quantico]

Originally posted by eminem
for home defense i wouldn't think of grabbing anything but my glock 31. you grab a glock 17 to stop someone, you grab a glock 31 to end someone. just my 2 cents.

I think that the 357 sig is at it's best as a ccw caliber where weight vs size vs capacity is the issue... I like the 31 as a home defense gun too although I prefer 45 acp myself...

[eminem]

both are great, but why the 45acp quantico?

[Scott E.G.]

There's less muzzle flash, less noise, and less recoil with the .45acp. If I wake up in the middle of the night and I have to discharge my pistol in a closed room, I'll be flinching less, hearing more, and seeing more if I go with a .45acp. Hopefully if it comes to firing on someone I'll only have to fire one shot and if I carry a .357 or .45, it just won't matter cause both will open up a devistating wound in my target.

However, I'd take my .357sig for duty carry or CCW over the .45acp.

[eminem]

what about the .40 it has less muzzle flash, less noise, and less recoil than a 357 sig. would you pick a .45 or .40?

[HSM ITH]

Originally posted by eminem
what about the .40 it has less muzzle flash, less noise, and less recoil than a 357 sig. would you pick a .45 or .40?

The 40 and the 357 are basically identical ballistically, so recoil and noise would be very very close. Flash is ammo dependant. Not trying to pick at you, but is there something you know that can shed some light on this?

[Scott E.G.]

Originally posted by eminem
what about the .40 it has less muzzle flash, less noise, and less recoil than a 357 sig. would you pick a .45 or .40?

Umm..........45acp for night time intruder ellimination in my home and .357sig for CCW and duty carry, didn't I make that clear?;f

[yoni]

I have spent a lot of time doing research into the way the .357 sig works on the street. Last night I found at Ammolab forums, the results from police shootings using this round.

100% first round stops in almost 400 shootings with the .357 sig.
This places this round in a place all it's own, not saying it is a death ray but it seems to be a winner. Until now based on what I have seen 9mm and 40S&W are about the same and .45 acp is just a little bit better. This is assuming use of modern up to date hollow points.

I think this is all traced to the FBI and their specs for what a round should do so every factory tries to acheive this with every round. This has raised the level of all the rounds to the high level of performance we see today. However it has compressed the difference between 9mm, 40S&W, .45acp into no real difference. Then this round .357 sig with it's higher velocity steps out of the pack with what appears to be a clear advantage.

I have ordered a .357 sig barrel for my Glock 35;Y

yoni

[eminem]

Originally posted by Scott E.G.
Umm..........45acp for night time intruder ellimination in my home and .357sig for CCW and duty carry, didn't I make that clear?;f

hmmm i guess someone doesn't know what a discussion is. i just wanted to know how you thought the 40 stacked up against the 45. mistook you for someone who i thought might have something insteresting to say, i was wrong ;f

[Scott E.G.]

Originally posted by eminem
hmmm i guess someone doesn't know what a discussion is. i just wanted to know how you thought the 40 stacked up against the 45. mistook you for someone who i thought might have something insteresting to say, i was wrong ;f

Hehe, interest is all relative to how far you can assume my opinion goes in my cryptic statement.:cool: Ok, I would say the .40 is closer to the .357 as far as muzzle flash, recoil, and noise. Essentially, I prefer to use something with high energy, high velocity for CCW or duty, but something with a lower velocity, less barrier penetration capability, and less noise for shooting indoors with the risk of possibly hitting innocents. The .45acp is used heavily by swat now for those reasons. Also, with new advancements in bullet technology like the Ranger Ts, lower velocity rounds have excellent expansion that only higher velocity calibres were capable of doing a few years ago.

I see the .40 as being in between the .45 and .357 so it would certainly be a good compromise between the two, but I think of it as a jack of "most" trades and I would prefer having two calibres ready for a specialized niche. So, if I want high end performance with excellent expansion, barrier penetration, and energy transfer to target I go with the .357. However, there are situations were I want less barrier penetration capability, less noise, and less recoil in which the .45 fills that role for me. A gun is a tool IMO........got to use the appropriate tool for the appropriate job.

[duncan]

check with some of your local US secret service agents.

They switched to 357 sig as a defense round.

If you go to Calibers website, several articles discussing 357 sig equalling 357 mag ballistically.

The only more powerful Glock is the G20 in 10mm - if you can handle it?

[Scott E.G.]

Yeah, I'd like get a word in on the comparision between the .357mag and .357sig. I have yet to see a test where equal barrel lengths have been compared between the two calibres. Every test I've seen compares a 4inch revolver barrel to a 4inch auto barrel. Well, that sounds fine and dandy on paper, but a 4inch auto barrel includes the chamber. So, a 4inch auto barrel only has about 3inches of actual rifled barrel. Using a 5inch auto barrel would be a fairer comparison as in there would be about 4inches of rifled barrel. Every inch of barrel makes a big difference in muzzle velocity.

Sure, a tiny bit of velocity is lost between the cylinder and the barrel of a revolver, but it is only a fraction of what is lost from a compensator. A compensator on a glock reduces velocity on a .357sig by only about 50fps, while a one inch decrease in barrel length reduces velocty by more than 100fps.

[DeadMansLife]

9mm vs. 357 SIG
.357 Mag vs. 357 SIG
.40 S&W vs. 357 SIG
.45 ACP vs. 357 SIG

Seems like everyone wants to prove they are atleast as good as the 357 SIG.

[Yog]

Yoni,

I've been looking on ammolab forum for the information you posted about the 400 shootings with the .357 SIG and I can't find it......

Would you please give me a date/board/link where you found these stats at?

I'm EXTREMELY interested in reading that information.

Thanks for your time and efforts.

Be safe. Be happy.

Joel N.
"Yog" (in Alaska)
"Molon Labe!"

[JNB01]

All of the popular service calibers (9mm, .40SW, .45acp, 357 Sig) benifit from using the best ammunition available for them. Which in general is, Ranger, Federal Tactical, and most examples of the Speer Gold Dot bullet.


Originally posted by HSM ITH
The 40 and the 357 are basically identical ballistically, so recoil and noise would be very very close. Flash is ammo dependant. Not trying to pick at you, but is there something you know that can shed some light on this?

Not necassarily true, as the 357 Sig is a one trick pony (125gr loads) and the .40 offers four different bullet weights (135,155,165 & 180gr). The 155gr Gold Dot being a hot load, offers recoil and blast similar to the 357 Sig, but the 180gr Gold Dot has less blast, flash, and IMO recoil than both. Agreed, flash varies with load selection.

Here's an example for both the .40 & 357 Sig, using Federal Tactical bullets. Tests are courtesy of Dr. Roberts over on Tactical Forums.

Results are thru 4-layers of denim.

.40SW 180gr Federal Tactical: vel= 1000fps/ pen= 12.4"/ rd= 0.73"

357 Sig 125gr Federal Tactical: vel= 1390fps/ pen= 13.5"/ rd= 0.62"

For comparison, again, thru 4-layers of denim, courtesy of Doc.

230gr+P Federal Tactical: vel= 905fps/ pen= 13.8"/ rd= 0.74"

9mm 127gr+P+ Ranger (RA9TA): vel= 1324fps/ pen= 12.7"/ rd= 0.62"

The 180gr Federal Tactical more closely emulates the .45acp in this instance, and being a sub-sonic load, does so with less blast/noise than the 357 Sig. The Federal Tactical 125 gr 357 Sig load appears to basically be the ballistic twin of the 9mm 127gr+P+ (RA9TA) load.

Bigger bullets cut and crush more tissue, this is of course one of the reason's we use jhp ammunition, in hopes that are bullet will expand, thus becoming larger. Bullet design plays a crucial role in this process, even more than velocity, which seems why most prefer the 357 Sig.

Here's an example using the .40SW 165gr Federal Tactical load.

Thru 4-layers of denim: vel= 1013fps/ 12.9"/ rd= 0.65"

This load is more in line with the 357 Sigs performance, velocity withstanding. However, the same can be said of the 9mm in this instance. Superior or similar performance can be delivered without higher velocities and increased pressure levels, and the subsequent rise in blast/noise levels that are associated with both.

Best, JNB01

[lomfs24]

Originally posted by HSM ITH
The 40 and the 357 are basically identical ballistically, so recoil and noise would be very very close. Flash is ammo dependant. Not trying to pick at you, but is there something you know that can shed some light on this?
The blanket statement that the 40 and the 357 are basically identical, IMHO, could not be farther from the truth. While the overall case dimensions start out looking similar a lot changes when you add a shoulder.

First off, I have a Sig P229 in 357, a friend on mine has the same gun in 40. There is a huge difference in sound. The 40 barks and the 357 roars. That is even with my light target loads. The guys that I shoot with complain about my hand cannon even when I am shooting target loads. Flash is, of course, dependant more on powder than anything else. I have some loads with Blue Dot that will light up the night sky better than most fireworks. While I have some loads I didn't like with Bullseye that had nearly no flash. Bad pressure problems but relatively no flash.

It seems that the recoil is about the same but percieved recoil is much different. The 40 has a heavier bullet than the 357 does and so IMHO the 40 has a more severe muzzle flip. I am much faster back on target with my 357 than with the 40.

JBN01 says that the 357 is a one trick pony. That also couldn't be farther from the truth. While factory ammo comes mostly in 124 or 125 gr I have loaded bullets from 90 gr to 147 gr. With my preferences landing somewhere between 115gr. and 124gr. The 95 gr bullet is a real screamer but I think in a defense situation would lack in the penetration dept. due to a light bullet.

As far as expansion, I think it was screaming that posted some picts of Rangers and Gold Dots that expanded to a larger diameter that a 45ACP did. I don't remember what the target was though, possibly water. But if it won't fragment in water it won't fragment in flesh.

There are some bullet mfg. that are making 357 bullets. Raineer and Montana Gold Bullets are two that I know of right off the top of my head. Speer also makes a 357 Sig Gold Dot. You can also use a 38 Super bullet if you are looking for speeds over 1400fps. However, I have not experienced any shed jackets from standard 9mm bullets yet. And have loaded some hot loads. The 357 sig bullets and 38 super bullets simply have a heavier jacket.

I was really impressed with how flat the round shoots. I was shooting for fun in the mountains the other day with some of my hot loads and I was shooting rocks at about 120 yards, give or take a little, and I was not holding high. I was holding the same place I would if I was shooting at 25 yards. Not only was hitting where I was shooting but I was also knocking large chunks of granite off the rock face. That would be from a 124 gr. FMJ traveling a little over 1400 fps.

I love my sig, if you couldn't tell already.

[Scott E.G.]

Good post, lomfs24. Perhaps this is why law enforcement agencies are around the country are dumping their .40s for the .357 sig in droves.;e

[yoni]

lomfs24 where can I find the pictures of the rounds that were tested?

Also for ScottE.G. you say that LE agencies are dumping their 40's for .357 sig in droves what departments are doing it?

Thank you,
yoni

[lomfs24]

Originally posted by yoni
lomfs24 where can I find the pictures of the rounds that were tested?

Also for ScottE.G. you say that LE agencies are dumping their 40's for .357 sig in droves what departments are doing it?

Thank you,
yoni I will try to find those pictures for you. I think it was Screaming that posted those pics earlier this year. As far as what agencies are switching, Montana State Highway Patrol, for one, has. If I am not mistaken AZ and NM have also. Those are the ones I know about.

I will work on getting some picts.

[lomfs24]

I found the picts I was talking about. Here is a link to that thread. ENJOY!!!
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149462

[Screaming .357G]

Yep the winchester ranger t and the speer gold dot are what I like to carry...Good expansion,penetration,low flash,and it feeds 100% in my 4 guns chambered for .357sig.
The 115-125gr corbon JHP is good too but it acts more like a older light .357mag SJHP loading and fragments in water badly.

[Scott E.G.]

Originally posted by yoni
lomfs24 where can I find the pictures of the rounds that were tested?

Also for ScottE.G. you say that LE agencies are dumping their 40's for .357 sig in droves what departments are doing it?

Thank you,
yoni

Yoni, here are some off the top of my head that are from about a year or two ago.

Alameda County
Delaware State Police (First to adopt the 357 SIG)
Dallas, Texas Police
Federal Air Marshals
Federal Protective Services (FPS) Special Agents for General Services Administration (GSA) - P229
Keizer Police Department, Oregon
La Porte County Indiana Sheriff's Department
Laurence County Sheriff's Office, Tennessee
Las Vegas Metro Police (allowed use of)
Liberty Twp Police Dept, Ohio
Maine Aroostook County Sheriff's Office
Maine Game Wardens (P226)
Maricopa County [Phoenix] Arizona Sheriff's Office/MCSO
Montcalm County (Michigan) Sheriff's Office
New Jersey Division of Fish & Game
New Mexico State Police
Niles Police Dept, Ohio
Northwood Police Dept, ND
NC Highway Patrol
NC Wake County Sheriff's Department
NC Wildlife Enforcement Officers
Nueces County Sheriff Department, Texas (Sigpro)
Oakland County Sheriff's Dept, Michigan
Orange Police Dept, CT (sig pro, SP2340 .357)
Orlando PD (plainclothes officers)
Oxford, Mississippi
Richmond, Virginia
Rocky Mount Police Dept, Rocky Mount, NC
Springfield, IL
Tennessee Highway Patrol
Union County Sheriff's Office, Marysville, Ohio (Glock 31)
Texas, DPS
United States (GSA) - Office of Inspector General (OIG) Special Agents - P229
United States Secret Service
Virginia State Police

Like I said, this list is small in comparison to the current list. Some of these agencies still have .40s in use, but they are gradually replacing those with .357sigs.

[yoni]

Thanks for the info.

yoni

[yoni]

Thanks for the pictures and the info.

yoni

[lomfs24]

Originally posted by JNB01

This load is more in line with the 357 Sigs performance, velocity withstanding. However, the same can be said of the 9mm in this instance. Superior or similar performance can be delivered without higher velocities and increased pressure levels, and the subsequent rise in blast/noise levels that are associated with both.

Best, JNB01
I just wanted to make a quick clarification. I don't really want to highjack the thread.

If you have done any reloading I am sure you know this, but, there is no direct link between pressure levels and velocity. I have been loading my own ammo since I was old enough to run the press handle. (That is literal, I grew up on a ranch and we loaded all our own ammo.) I thought I pretty much knew all there was about reloading. Then along comes this 357 Sig and I am learning things about pressure that I have never known before or never had to learn.

Higher pressure does not equal higher velocities. I know there will be armchair scientists that will want to argue this with me but the link is not there. To give you an instance, I was shooting a 124 gr bullet out of my Sig sitting on 6.8 grains of Bullseye. Velocities were in the low 1300fps range. Speeds were slower and casings were coming out of the gun and dropping on the ground at my feet. I thought I had a good target load until I started to look at the primers. Most of them showed signs were there was metal being stripped off the outside of the primer. I thought I had a bad batch of primers or my gun was breaking. Some of the primers were even being blown back out flat so there was no dent in them. I racked my brain for a long time over that one. I asked several people and even posted the question on the board here and most people agreed that it was high pressure signs.

On the other hand, I am loading 11.0 grains of blue dot under the same bullet and I have absoluetly no pressure signs on the case at all. It doesn't take much pressure to run those cases through the sizing die so the cases are not getting expanded much if at all. However, I am getting velocities in the mid 1400 fps range and the cases coming out of the gun are likely to be as far away as 35 feet.

Even an uneducated guy like me would likely reason that one round has higher pressures and lower velocities and the other has higher velocities and lower pressures.

If you think I am lying, check the Lymans pistol reloading manual and as a rule of thumb, though not always the case, a slower burning powder will produce lower pressures and higher velocities that a faster burning powder.

Thanks for letting me clear that up.