Progress Report

[Comrade Bork]

So far I have fired about 400 rounds through my G-37. All of it 200gr Speer Lawman TMJ. Only one "failure" so far; a failure to feed that was corrected on the "tap" portion of the "tap/rack/bang" drill. I would judge that to be acceptable at this point. Has anyone seen any of the new Winchester 230gr FMJ loadings yet? Those are what I am waiting for to CCW.

[DannyR]

Comrade,

I have not seen any, and forgot to ask Chris Edwards about them when I saw him in Lexington this weekend.

FWIW, he was showing a new tactical light by Surefire called the "Porcupine." I've got to get one, but it's not even listed on their web site.

[Jeff82]

Has anyone seen any of the new Winchester 230gr FMJ loadings yet? Those are what I am waiting for to CCW.
....;P..^8
;P???;P
....;P..^8

(I'm assuming "CCW" means you're going to carry this as defense ammo in a concealed handgun?)

After all the blood/sweat/tears/trouble to get properly performing defense ammo available to the people so we can have better stopping power (less risk to you) with less over-penetration problems (less risk to IB's) and you're gonna carry FMJ's on the street? Let's just take a step back a hundred years in handgun bullet design.
^3
This I don't understand.

No harm or foul intended, I'm just flabbergasted there is anyone who would make that choice today. (I maybe could understand an old, and I mean OLD, military vet who swears by the .45 ACP FMJ {which, BTW, isn't much more effective than 9mm ball} in his old trusty slab-sided gov't issue 1911--but even he's got to be a stuck-in-his-way-won't-listen-to-reason-bah humbug kinda guy). Particularly when it is well documented that LRN or FMJ's result in more good guys/gals being killed due to the less effective and over-penetrating "ball" design (regardless of caliber).

Again, no offence intended, but this is an unreal choice with todays selection of ammo. I would think that Federal's "Expanding Full Metal Jacket" bullet would be the best choice if the "ball" profile is a must (once available in 45 GAP, or as a separate reloading component). Otherwise a quality hollowpoint is the prudent choice. If a quality HP won't reliably feed in a gun, get a real gun (or get it fixed)!

I only need to stub my toe once to realize I don't want to do it again. Throwing away decades of bullet research and developement is doing that in spades!
^2

[Shane Pratt]

Many people carry FMJ ammo and keep in mind that most .45 hollow points don't even expand once it hits anything thicker than a shirt because it gets clogged and you end up with a FMJ anyway in a slow moving .45. If he wants to carry FMJ then he can and should without someone coming down on him. That is why there's such a large selection of ammo for one to pick from.

[940glocktime]

i would carry fmj in 45,i would even carry it in 9mm...i dont look at my handgun as a first shot magic kill all...if i get a thorn in my a#$,its gonna hurt like hell....i would not want to get shot by any gun,cal. load,etc....;g

I shot some wet phonebooks a week or so ago, and was quite shocked at the outcome - none of the JHP rounds I fired expanded, all were clogged with paper, and effectively turned into FMJ's....

I suppose I did the test "wrong", as I fired from 7 yards, and the books were pretty tightly packed and VERY wet. I'm going to try damp newspapers (per a GT'er suggestion) next time.

The only JHP that did expand was a 357 SIG GDHP, and that was fired at contact distance!

I will say, that out of the 40S&W, 45ACP, 45GAP JHP's that I fired, the 45GAP 200 GDHP left the biggest "wound channel". (40 was Hydra-Shok 165, 45ACP was Cor-Bon 185 & Hydra-Shok 230).

Also fired a UMC 10mm 180 FMJ for grins ;f It had the deepest penetration.

FWIW, YMMV, etc....

Steve

[Jeff82]

“The penetration of the .45 ACP 230-grain FMJ bullet is 26" in ballistic gelatin, making it problematic and dangerous as a personal defense load. The threat of over-penetration with the military round necessitates the use of hollow points for LEO and civilian PDW applications.” http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/45acp.htm

“Among the changes, SAP are now not allowed hollow-points, and must carry FMJ ball ammo. This is in contrast to the situation in most places where original restrictions on ammo have been relaxed, so that the cops can carry rounds that incapacitate, without the danger of over penetration.” http://www.gutterfighting.org/SpecialPurposeAmmo.html

It is safe to say that the larger the bullet, the more effective it will be. I do not feel that it is a real dramatic difference, but bigger is better. At the same time, it is safe to say that hollow-point ammo is more effective than ball. This seems to be the result not of expansion, but from the bullet's energy being dumped in the body and not exiting.
While not trying to place a percentage on how often they will be effective with one or two shots, I have seen certain rounds be effective over and over again. They are the .38 Special 158-grain lead hollow-point; 9mm +P+ jacketed hollow-point; .40 155- and 165-grain jacketed hollow-point; .45 ACP hollow-points; .223 55 grain FMJ and hollow-point; 12 gauge 00 buckshot; and 12 gauge rifled slugs. http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/what_happens_gunfight/index2.html

The first issue was to decide what bullet would be best for self defense. A lot of former military personnel use FMJ since they feed reliably in semi-automatics. The serious problem of over-penetration with this ammunition was dramatically validated once again.
Using the FBI statistic of maximum penetration of fourteen inches, both the 9 mm AND the .45 ACP drove clean through the stack of phone books and into the ground below. We dug out the ones we could find, and you can see there was minimum deformation.
The FMJ would certainly punch clean through an adversary and continue through the neighborhood. This would create a significant liability issue. As Massad Ayoob states, "We have a legal moral and financial responsibility for the terminal resting place of every projectile we fire." You would be hard pressed to locate these rounds after a shoot-out in a public place unless you had a doctor dig them out of people BEHIND the bad guy…. …An essential point: make sure you're not using full metal jacket for your-self defense load - for your safety as well as mine! http://www.allsafedefense.com/Special%20Pages/BulletTest.htm

“The author then went on to say that the Federal 125 grain round might have a problem of over-penetration in certain urban environments.” While referring to these results: 125gr Federal .357 Sig, 10% gelatin, FBI Tests 1-8, inches of penetration, 14.0, 20.1, 22.9, 17.1, 19.5, 13.8, 20.5, 12.1
-Peter Jordan paraphrasing Dr Topper, who wrote the April 1996 issue of Handguns article “FBI Tests the .357SIG”, http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIIC2q8.html (Note, none of these are near the 26” penetration 45 ball ammo, yet he’s cautioning about over-penetration.)

“When I was a firearms instructor with the New York City Police Department (NYCPD), I suggested that the 158-grain round-nose lead bullet was totally ineffective for stopping dangerous criminals. In many cases it caused injury or death to bystanders due to its ricochet potential and penetrating ability. I stated that we should consider using expanding hollowpoint bullets.”
“It was obvious to me even without much firearms knowledge that a pointy, solid bullet would fully penetrate a target, making only a small self-sealing hole and perhaps hitting some innocent victim in the background. Sure enough, this happened time and time again.”
- Jim Cirillo, NYCPD Stakeout Squad, US Customs, FLETC, from “Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights”, pages 28 and 37. More if you’ll read the book.

For much more info: http://www.iwba.com/ http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm#Specification Supplement

I've only scratched the surface. All of us who carry have the responsibility to educate ourselves to make the best decisions when it comes to life and death questions.

Preferred penetration in self-defense (not LEO) situations is 12-14 inches in bare or lightly clothed gelatin. Much more than that is excessive and potentially dangerous to others. Period.

[Shane Pratt]

It's an old worn out debate. Folks are going to carry what that like in their gun so a 500 page book isn't going to change anyones mind. I carry Hollow points in the summer and FMJ in the winter. To each his own.

[Jeff82]

You're absolutely right. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" as the saying goes. You see this everyday when otherwise intelligent people start to smoke cigarettes (picking up the habit) or ride the left lane on controlled access highways. By your last submission, it appears you did go through a decision making process to choose two different loads to carry that are based on your particular circumstances. No prob from me there. Now, after the conclusions are drawn, we may differ on how best to use the info and may even be splitting hairs.

I see it this way for my needs (Virginia, not many really cold days so heavy coat, many layers use is minimal as opposed to say, Wisconsin), by using a reliably feeding hollowpoint designed to penetrate at least to 12", I most likely will gain (60-70% of hp's expand in humans) but may break even (the other 30-40% that clog up), but due to bullet construction, even the hp's that clog while penetrating further will not penetrate to the point that an FMJ will. (18" versus 26+") Therefore, the hp is still the best choice for me. We haven't looked into the severity of an FMJ wound tract vs. an HP (clogged or not) wound tract. There too I think you will find the HP a better choice. More than one doctor has stated that they cannot see a difference in a tract caused by a .32 FMJ vs. a .45 FMJ.

For the typical sheeple these issues never cross their mind. After you strap a gun on, these are life or death issues. I can't understand people (gunners) not researching it.

Folks are going to carry what that like in their gun so a 500 page book isn't going to change anyones mind... ...To each his own.

Are you suggesting that all discussion and all learning stop because some people are going to do what they want anyway (regardless of rhyme or reason)? Like the cigarette example above, change comes with awareness and being exposed to good information. Why else are we on this board for? BTW, if someone ever ends up in court they may see all of this info presented by the IB's attorney anyway, so the smart gunner would want to see it now, to properly plan his defense. (You must prepare to defend yourself twice, surviving the life or death incident, then survivng the legal incident. To survive the first only to lose the second is a phryic victory at best. Losing your freedom; actual, financial, pyschological, etc., is almost as bad as losing your life.)

PS- After having been in the law enforcement field (police and corrections), having attended several shooting schools, and spent most of my life in or around the military, the ONLY people I know who carry FMJ in a 'defence' use handgun are the on-duty military guys who don't have a choice.

[WalterGA]

I shot a cattle egret the other day, using my G30 and Triton 165gr. +p hollow points. I'll have to admit that overpenetration was a problem, but the egret was blown to smithereens.

[CCV]

Originally posted by WalterGA
I shot a cattle egret the other day, using my G30 and Triton 165gr. +p hollow points. I'll have to admit that overpenetration was a problem, but the egret was blown to smithereens.

How many layers of denim was he wearing Walter?

[fabricator]

Originally posted by sjstill
I shot some wet phonebooks a week or so ago, and was quite shocked at the outcome - none of the JHP rounds I fired expanded, all were clogged with paper, and effectively turned into FMJ's....

I suppose I did the test "wrong", as I fired from 7 yards, and the books were pretty tightly packed and VERY wet. I'm going to try damp newspapers (per a GT'er suggestion) next time.

The only JHP that did expand was a 357 SIG GDHP, and that was fired at contact distance!

I will say, that out of the 40S&W, 45ACP, 45GAP JHP's that I fired, the 45GAP 200 GDHP left the biggest "wound channel". (40 was Hydra-Shok 165, 45ACP was Cor-Bon 185 & Hydra-Shok 230).

Also fired a UMC 10mm 180 FMJ for grins ;f It had the deepest penetration.

FWIW, YMMV, etc....

Steve

When it starts getting cold, I shoot inside my pole barn into my wood pile, which is about 20 feet square and 6 feet tall. I have about half a 5 gallon pail of many different brands of hollow points that look like I could reload them again. The hole just gets full of wood and doesnt expand at all

[SonnyD]

That's why CorBon makes PowRball HP's;f
Regards SonnyD