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axel
11-13-2003, 13:59
First, let me say I know this thread is going in inflame just about everyone but I've thought about this for several years and this seems to be the right forum to see if anyone can change my mind. Let me also say I don't hunt but do not begrudge those who do. I understand and agree with all the reasons for hunting. Having said that ...

I don't get it. Hunting to me is stalking an animal on its terms, staying downwind, trying to silently get close enough for a killing shot. It seems deer hunting has been reduced to putting up a tree stand, spreading your deer urine or other attracting scents, rattling the deer antlers and waiting for the deer to come to you. Where is the sport in that? To me, that's not much different than putting a salt lick out in the middle of a field and waiting for a cow to approach it. I have no problem with the killing of the animal (as long as the meat is harvested and it's not killing for the sake of killing) but I couldn't be very proud of a kill if all I did was pick a good place for my tree stand. There you go, that's my opinion. More than happy to learn why you think I'm wrong.

f1b32oPTic
11-13-2003, 14:07
let me be the first to say that you have no idea what you are talking about...you make it sound soooo easy... not so

if you think its that easy then i dare say go try it...if you merely set up a tree stand spread some piss around and think your in the right place, that you are guaranteed a deer, then you are (1) in a place that is severely overpopulated with deer (2)dont know what you are talking about...


if you think its so easy, kill one this season and post pics...until then its option (2)

axel
11-13-2003, 14:13
the tree stand approach doesn't require skill and knowledge. All I'm saying is given the the options of stalking on foot vs. tree stand, the tree stand approach doesn't seem as though it takes as much effort. I freely said I'm willing to listen to opposing opinions. So rather that tell me why I'm wrong (I might add without supporting your position) tell me why you're right. Educate me - but let's try to keep the discussion to the topic at hand and not reduce it to the defensive "you're just an idiot" responses. Fair enough?

mpol777
11-13-2003, 14:15
I guess you're right. NASCAR isn't much of a sport either. I mean how hard is it to turn left? Golf isn't much of a sport. All you're doing is hitting a little ball. Baseball isn't much of a sport. Throw a ball, hit a ball. How hard can that be?

Until you've gotten up at 2:30am to get out to the field hours before sunup, in 5 degree weather, for the 7th day in a row, to spent the morning freezing your butt off, relishing in the beauty of the sun coming up over the trees and watching the woods come alive, you won't understand.

laynlow
11-13-2003, 14:23
Itís called the food chain. Some folks enjoy earning their meal the same way humankind did before Wal-Mart. ;g

f1b32oPTic
11-13-2003, 14:23
alright fair enough...

first of all setting up a tree stand is not really that easy of a task...for one, i am reduced to hunting on public gamelands which means that i hike my gear in and out every day...i start scouting deer signs in the summer to figure where on this public lands i am going to place my stand. there is no baiting allowed on public lands.
okay, say you have found your spot...the saying goes that 80% of the deer are on 20% of the land...i have found this to be fairly accurate, just as in fishing the saying goes 90% of the fish are in 10% of the lake. now that you have set yourself up, you must hike that gear before the sun rises and climb you, your stand, your gear up that tree without making noise and breaking a sweat, or you have just ruined your spot. you must be prepared to sit motionless for hours and hope that you are in the right place...deer rarely stand still during the gun season and you hope that you can needle a shot through the woods on a usually moving target and hit it in the vitals. also easier said than done. try it i implore you.


then try it with archery equipment and hope that you have set your stand up where you hope you are within 40 yards of where a deer is going to pass and pause for you long enough to draw and shoot

onemilmhz
11-13-2003, 14:56
Originally posted by axel
So rather that tell me why I'm wrong (I might add without supporting your position) tell me why you're right. Educate me -
C'mon guys, let's not blow the opportunity to recruit a new hunter by blasting him needlessly, simply because he's unaware. Hunting, in part, is about numbers. Take my home state for example. The deer herd in Georgia is estimated at approximately 1.3 million. Researchers figure that the state's ecosystem can healthily sustain only about 900K - 1 million. An over populated herd contributes hundreds of thousands of dollars in insurance expenses from collisions with vehicles alone, not to mention damage to property in urban areas. As a matter of fact, my chief has a nice 7-pointer in his office he shot on duty (with a G22) a few years ago after it crashed through a plate glass window into the lobby of a girls dorm. He attempted unsuccessfully to direct it back outside but when it became irritated and charged him he had to shoot it. These types of incidents have prompted DNR to allow a record number of deer harvests in recent years. It wasn't that long ago it was one buck and two doe. Now it's two and twelve respectively. If it weren't for the efforts of ethical hunters actively seeking game each season the problem would certainly be worse. Are there other, more basic reasons for hunting such as enjoyment, tradition and putting meat in the freezer? Of course, but I don't carry my rifle into the meat section of my local Kroger and my dad wasn't a hunter. I guess that leaves enjoyment. :) I really do enjoy all aspects of hunting. I enjoy getting up at 3:00 AM to sit in a tree, freezing my butt off all day only to end up seeing nothing. I also enjoy knowing that I am doing my part to manage the herd in my state. From the planting of high quality grazing vegitation year round to harvesting mature deer during the season. It's about different things to different folks but it's very necessary from an ecological standpoint, if not an ethical one.

CanyonMan
11-13-2003, 15:45
axel said... (quote)

....I don't get it. Hunting to me is stalking an animal on its terms, staying downwind, trying to silently get close enough for a killing shot. It seems deer hunting has been reduced to putting up a tree stand, spreading your deer urine or other attracting scents, rattling the deer antlers and waiting for the deer to come to you. Where is the sport in that? To me, that's not much different than putting a salt lick out in the middle of a field and waiting for a cow to approach it...(end quote).

axel, first let me say to you, that i have been brought up in the wild west, in cowboy country, ranching, cowboying, guiding, and you would not believe some of the stuff i have seen from hunters. (from the city).

While "i agree" with you about "one thing" you said.(quote).."Hunting to me is stalking downwind, trying to silently get close enough for a killling shot.." (end quote).

Yes, the above, is a very exciting way to hunt, and i think you'll find most of us hunters still do that, 'to a degree'.. in fact, it is 'my favorite way' to hunt just about anything.

BUT, you speak of using attractents, and masking sents, such as deer urine etc. and you mention shooting the game over bait, such as a salt lick, or from a tree stand, and you seem to be a little perplexed about this method as though it were somewhat un-ethical.

So, let me share this with you.

The american indians, (which i grew up with), have a rather colorful 'past history' when it came to hunting. First of all they were after meat! No question there. They needed the meat to live, and the hides, and other body parts to use , for everyday life. But let me share with you some of their methods, and see how they 'stack up' to just,"hunting from a tree, or using bait, or using deer pee." (our modern day methods).

One of their favorite ways to kill buffalo, was to herd them toward a canyon rim, and drive them over the edge, where they would fall to their death, (gastly huh?). Also, they were masters of "masking sents." They used to roll in buffalo dung, to mask their human sent, as well as wear a "green skin" around their camp for a day or two, and stink themselves up, as to mask their oder. Also, they were masters of "ambush as well," hiding high in the rocks, or sometimes, laying in a hole in the ground, they had dug, and then cover themselves up with a piece of skin covered with dirt, then 'pop up,' and shoot, when the game animal came by. They also used "attractents" in one form or another, to 'bring the game animal to them,' so they could get a clean shot.

Was this "un-ethical?" No. it was hunting!

I admit, i hate it when i see folks from the city come out, drink beer, and shoot from the comfort of their pickup trucks. I really hate it when we have found a dead calf, that some moron thought was a deer. Or, when the rednecks come out and hunt off the backs of their atv's, and fire a cajillion shots at whatever runs through the woods.

THIS, i 'do not call hunting!'

As long as a man is 'ethical' in his/her hunting, and does everything possible to insure a clean quick kill on their game, and stays within the law, this is fine with me.

Hunting out of a tree, over a doe in heat sent patch, is not as easy as some think, sometimes it is, but still, it is matching wits with the animal. Whether you stalk the game, or the game stalks you, as long as your heart is in the right place, and you have taken all precations to do it well and right, hunting from a tree, or a cleft in the rocks, or stalking on foot, it is still hunting. I don't think the good Lord has any problem what soever with this approach.

The hunter must still have the skill to... #1) Locate the correct spot, which requires scouting, and woodsmanship, and, #2). then he must still know 'when and where' to release his arrow, or fire his gun, and on top of it all, #3). he must still be a marksman, and place his shot in the vitals for a clean kill.

These methods have been used for hundreds, if not a thousand years.

Again, 'stalking and trailing game,' and coming up on them for a kill is exciting, and does take much skill, and understanding, and woodsmanship......BUT, so do these other methods. A man cannot just walk out and throw deer urine on the ground, and "hope something shows up." If done properly, it takes skill, to 'know your game, their movements, and marsmanship to place the shot well. I believe that anyone who understands this, and does it right, and loves the woods, and respects the game, has the right to 'brag on his hunt, and on his game.'

It is, as i said, the beer drinking, lazy road hunters, that do not give a flip for "the hunt," but only for 'the kill',(which no true hunter does, that is, 'get off' on the "kill."), and is to ignorant of woods, and game strategy, and and just plain 'morals,' it is this man, I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR!

If you like to 'stalk' that's great.... But don't think the boys out there doing it from a tree, or a lofty place, or using masking sents, are doing it the 'easy way.' This just ain't so.


Good hunting - My hunting brothers!

CanyonMan

axel
11-13-2003, 16:02
I asked for an education and got a good one. I really never intended to demean hunters who use tree stands. If I offended anyone I'm truly sorry. Truth is, I think I would like hunting. It's something I've never tried (except for dove hunting once in Arizona - sorry for all the buckshot I left behind. Hit one dove out of I think 5-6 boxes of shells). Many thanks to everyone who was willing to explain their views. It's one thing I love about this site. A lot of knowledgeable people who are willing to debate, instruct and inform. I may ask for a shotgun for Christmas! Thanks again.

noway
11-13-2003, 16:52
Canyonman , very well put. For a second their axel would rather have us gather spears and rocks and hunt down our game the old ways.

The key thing that most non-hunter do not get, is that with the change of time and becoming more modern, our ways and methods of hunting have changed also.

f1b32oPTic
11-13-2003, 17:29
canyonman for mod!

turq
11-13-2003, 20:25
Aghh! Where to start.
Good job Canyon man. Axel , I'm not offended by anti's or those who don't get it. I'm not upset at those people as someone here said, educate don't just call names and alienate. I'm a hunter from a family of hunters. Period. To the animal activists who have in my Oregon stopped cougar hunting[by vote]; we have seen the Elk herds of 3800 animals in '88 go down to 400 today in one "Unit". Piss on you.

More Deer are killed every year on the Highways than by hunters.

Antis used the courts against sportsmen here in Oregon; The game commish. wanted to study Predators in NE Oregon blah blah at the end of the proposed 2 year 'study' the 'Commish' wanted[ IF Cougars ate ,killed Elk] to kill HALF the radio collared predators in the study area... Fed. funds involved... Lawsuit; not to allow Fed. monies 'for one species' over another. Commish backs down ; hunters lose.
Long Point:Hunters /Sportsmen have thru 'sporting goods' contributed Billions of dollars since the 1938 Fed. Tax on sporting goods took effect. But antis are now War-ing against us: despite the monies Hunters have contributed to the Conservation of ALL wildlife... rant off.
Most of you hunt Whitetails. White Tails are much different than Mulies. There are huge white tail deer around here but you almost never see Bucks UNTIL the rut...I hunted them with Muzzleloader, walked 4 1/2 miles into the area and back out at the end of the day. I've done it thru 18" of snow after 8 days hunting.Not fun, but I must like it 'cause I just keep doin' it? Isn't that the def. for insane? Doing the same thing over and over ; expecting a different outcome that never comes? It never gets easier, then the 'old ones' die.

Mule deer hunting this season; 60miles walked in 8 days.

G36's Rule
11-14-2003, 23:24
Let's see, you admit you don't hunt, but you have an opinion on stand hunting. In other words, you don't have a clue and are just running off at the mouth? How can you have an opinion on something you know nothing about?

Trolling?

Tommy Gun
11-15-2003, 18:53
It is not that easy... So please reserve your judgment. The marketing folks from all those supply houses will have you think that their products are all you need. Please, it is not necessarily so.

Is there any hunter here that can share a hunt with axel? I live in New Hampshire and you can come with me if you can get here. Send me a private email if you can. The season is short so act fast.

CanyonMan
11-16-2003, 15:26
axel,

You are more than welcome to come out to the ranch in West Texas Hoss.
It will Be a 'next season hunt', but we will treat ya right, and have a good time. Maybe we'll all learn something! :)


CanyonMan

pesticidal
11-16-2003, 16:09
I talked to a guy at a conference last week. He was from Kansas, and we started talking hunting. I told him about the abundance of white-tails, Canada goose, ducks and pheasants in my area.

He told me he liked hunting Russian Boars. Unfamiliar with them, I asked how he hunted. He said usually with a mid-sized rifle, but when he felt fearless, he'd get a few dogs to chase and round the hogs up, and he'd "knife 'em" ;P

He said it with a straight face, and he looked like he might be able to, but I still don't know if my leg was pulled or not...

hcook
11-16-2003, 16:20
pesticidal, hunting hogs with a knife is the real deal. No joke.

slightlyabnorml
11-16-2003, 17:00
Originally posted by CanyonMan
axel said... (quote)



I admit, i hate it when i see folks from the city come out, drink beer, and shoot from the comfort of their pickup trucks. I really hate it when we have found a dead calf, that some moron thought was a deer. Or, when the rednecks come out and hunt off the backs of their atv's, and fire a cajillion shots at whatever runs through the woods.

THIS, i 'do not call hunting!'



CanyonMan


CanyonMan;

I absolutley agree. Yesterday ws opening day of firearms season here in missouri, lets just say it got a little nuts. Close to 5 O'clock last night, AFTER the local conservationists decided to go ahead and put their airplane away for the day, we came across a group of city idiots running deer with dogs and ATV's. (extremely illegal) and had several individuals drive by our house with rifle barrels sticking out of truck windows. Needless to say I was pretty PO'ed. We also found 3 gutshot deer that nobody even attempted to find. all but one was still alive, needless to say, we ended their suffering,tagged & turned them in. I hate to see wastefulness like that. Im sure we will be finding stuff like that til well after the 25th(season ends)
I just wish that people were more responsible in their actions. Opening day and didn't fire one shot. Was a little disappointed, but now have 3 deer to process because some are to lazy to look for their kills, or just like shooting stuff.;6

unethical hunters give the rest of us a really bad name

onemilmhz
11-16-2003, 17:38
Originally posted by slightlyabnorml
I just wish that people were more responsible in their actions. Opening day and didn't fire one shot. Was a little disappointed, but now have 3 deer to process because some are to lazy to look for their kills, or just like shooting stuff.
I can't stand it when someone says, "I shot one the other day and couldn't find it." This makes me wonder, how long did they look? How good was their shot placement? I took what I thought was a great broadside shot the other morning on a medium sized doe. She was in a creekbead about 80 yards from my stand and I was hunting with my 30-30 with open sights. I gave a her a few minutes then went down to where I thought she had dropped and no deer. I started checking for blood but wasn't having any luck. I began doubting myself, my shot and my decision to fire. Just when I thought I had missed and started to give up on her I finally found blood. Turns out she was on the other side of the creek when I shot her and had gone back up the way she came. An hour of tracking later I found her hiding in a ditch about a half mile from where I first saw her. We went ahead and dressed her out there to lighten the load but I carried her the whole way back. My shot, my deer, my job. It was all WAY to much work for her size (maybe 25-30 lbs. of meat) but there was no way I was leaving her to rot in the woods.

pesticidal
11-16-2003, 18:10
Originally posted by hcook
pesticidal, hunting hogs with a knife is the real deal. No joke.

OK. That's real hunting, then. Don't those things get to 300 pounds or more?

onemilmhz
11-16-2003, 20:44
Originally posted by pesticidal
OK. That's real hunting, then. Don't those things get to 300 pounds or more?
I was watching some hunting show on the Outdoor Channel the other day where they were hunting hogs. The one they ended up taking was over 600lbs and had to be hauled out by a front end loader! ;P ;P ;P

JPhule
11-16-2003, 21:33
I ask this question honestly as one who has never hunted. My Dad almost got shot by stangers twice and gave it up before I was old enough to come along.

How did it feel to make your first kill, and how does it feel now to make a kill?

I really don't think that I could bring myself to do it. My father-in-law and brother-in-law hunt, and I was going to go with them some year. But I was talking to my wife and she told me that they are both very much like me in their love of animals and both of them cried their eyes out for hours after making their first kills. Now it seems like old hat to them, but my brother-in-law confessed to my wife that sometimes he just sits in the stand and hopes he doesn't ever see a deer, for fear that he'll have to shoot it. (peer pressure thing)

So, what would you tell the man who says, "I don't think I can do it."

hcook
11-16-2003, 21:45
If you can't stomach the idea, don't do it. End of story, no shame. If you want to share in the experience, go out with no gun.

I've never cried after I killed something. When I made my first kill, I was keenly aware of how warm the body and blood was and that it was me who caused this animal, which had been alive and breathing only minutes earlier, to die. But I didn't feel bad then, nor do I now.

hcook
11-16-2003, 21:49
pesticidal, what you do is corner them with dogs, then while the dogs keep them distracted up front, grab their hind legs and flip them over. Once they're over, you stab them.

Yes, it's very in-close and personal, and certainly not for the faint-of-heart.

JPhule
11-16-2003, 22:11
I has nothing to do with "stomaching it"

I've been the first responder at some VERY grisly traffic accidents and seen plenty of things that would make someone lose their lunch.

Like the guy who biffed it on his crotch-rocket with no helmet jsut a t-shirt: he pretty much had no skin on his face and chest area.

I just don't know how my conscience would take it. I personally don't NEED to kill the animal, so why do it? But I would like to harvest a deer. I understand the necessity of harvesting, and I would like to hunt. I just don't know if I could kill the animal.

Is there anyone here who never hunted until they were an adult and can chime in?

CanyonMan
11-16-2003, 23:40
slightlyabnorml,

in response to your post, yes, it is a sad thing, to have to clean up 'the mess' that this type of folks leave behind, and let us not forget, (an be fair here as well), It is not just the 'city guys' doing this type of thing, but there are plenty of 'good ole boys' so called, runnin around out there spotlighting, and road hunting as well, I don't believe this will ever go away sadly enough. I know that those i have caught, and 'sorta flashed my gun around,' while giving them verbal lessons in ethics, have never come back! But there are plenty of them to go around still. but let us and our children DO IT RIGHT!


JPhule,

My friend, you are not aone in your feelings #1, so don't feel like the lone ranger ok!? First of all if you do not 'need to hunt' (and most of us don't), we do it cause we like to.... Then that is one consideraton not to. As i said in one of my post above, the first one i think, "true hunter does not get off ont the kill, he enjoys the benifits of the Hunt." E.G.

For me,as with 'most' of the guys on here, just being out in the woods, being alone, or even with a good friend, and enjoying all the early morning sunrise brings, or the sunset, which ever the case. seeing things that we don't seem to take the time to notice in our everyday lives, (even if you live in the country, or on a ranch.) The silents the of the woods just before sunup, then all the "Life" the sunrise brings, the crows chasing an old owl, the songbirds, the coyote chasing a rabbit, even the opening of a flower bud as the sunlight falls on it. the smell of the woods in the fall is something no one can describe, that smell of musk, and dirt.

you say you don't know if you can "kil a deer or not," Fine! Stay the way you are and don't let the pressure of family or friends persuade you. I am 52 years old, been hunting most of my life, cowboying on a ranch, where there is plenty of game of all kinds. i have had some really lousy experiences, not being perfect, i have screwed up on a shot a time or two over all those years, but even if an animal got away after being hit, i looked for it till i either found it, or exhasted every bit of time and means necessary, made every effort.

I remember the worst one i had was with a bow many years ago, i figure i am a pretty good bowhunter and shot, but, i made a bad choice late one evening, and the buck got off into the tammaracks. It got dark. i went back to the ranch house and felt sick to my stomache, couldn't even sleep good. early the next morning we saddled up the horses and went looking in the sandhills for him... long story short, i found him about noon or so, still alive, (barely), put him down, and packed him home, hung him from the windmill, and dressed him out. good eating.
BUT, the ordeal bugged the crap out of me. Why???

Because i have been raised to respect life, wether man or beast.
Sure there is a time to kill. Most soldiers don't know if they will be able to kill when the time comes.. but they find out pretty quick that they can, they must!

But, as far as hunting goes, it is not a "if i don't kill them, they will kill me senerio." It is what we call now adays, a sport. I say now a days, cause years ago, in fact when i was young, it was not a sport for me, it was a necessity, to help feed my family, and for some folks, it is still that way in some circumstances.

Well, Hoss, i guess i am saying all this, "cause i want to," also, to say to you that if killing an animal ain't your thing, don't do it.
Stay the way you are, there's nothing wrong with that, don't let folks talk, or pressure you into anything. I still cannot stand to see a deer 'squirming on the ground,' untill i put him down, (when necessary). Turns my guts!

I hunt cause i like the meat, (don't have to have it), i hunt cause i want to keep the population from over growth, and disease, or under development as well. I mostly hunt, because i like being out in the woods, and canyons, and just hanging out and seeing God's creation wether i 'get anything or not'..... Yes, i can see all this while building fence, or rounding up strays, or bailing hay, or a million other things... but it ain't like that early morning 'quite' during a hunt.. It's all about the hunt! NOT THE KILL!

You do wht you gotta do Hoss, and don't let anyone condemn ya for it.
If nothing else, get ya a good camera, and go out and HUNT! To be honest with ya, i do that myself sometimes. Can't eat the photo, but a can still 'hang it on the wall', and enjoy all the other benifits of the 'hunt.' And i don't appear to have lost anyweight over all those tasty beef critters.

Just some thoughts for ya bud!



CanyonMan

rfb45colt
11-17-2003, 00:23
Axel, depending on the terrain being hunted, sometimes stalking a deer is not a viable option. Not everybody hunts in the "wide open spaces", or by agricultural fields, or in a nice open "story book" type of woods. I just gave my reasons for using a treestand on another thread. Rather than type it again, I'll just link it. Go here: http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2071675#post2071675 and read my post. As of now, it's the last post of this thread.


CanyonMan, great posts.

11-17-2003, 02:15
axel,

Gutsy post in the middle of a huntin' lodge. Hope you donned your asbestos blanket.

Hunting has a long heritage in our country. Proper practices often overlooked like gun safety, respect for private property and passing on inappropriate game (all posts I've seen here from responsible hunters) are the signs of experienced ethical hunters. Passing down such skills from father to son or daughter can be a valuable experience.

Running deer with dogs and ATVs, road hunting, stuffing a garbage bag full of sugary garbage and sticking it under a tree for three months and shooting the bear that comes along during the season?

Others can judge if any of that is worthy of being called hunting.

hcook
11-17-2003, 07:11
JPhule, perhaps I used the wrong term. I didn't mean "not get physically sick" (although that can come into play), I meant deal with on an emotional / mental level. If your conscience can't deal with it, then don't do it. I don't think anyone is going to think less of you for not killing an animal.

Why do it if you don't need it? Well, I'd ask this: do you eat? would you like to have some venison? You don't have to be in dire straights to kill a deer for food. Speaking of dire straights, if you want to kill a deer and donate some or all of it to charity, there is an organization called Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry (http://fhfh.org/cgi-bin/index.asp).

rfb45colt
11-17-2003, 21:22
Originally posted by axel
I don't get it. Hunting to me is stalking an animal on its terms, staying downwind, trying to silently get close enough for a killing shot.

Yeah sure... in a woods full of other hunters, all trying to do the same thing. Picture a pinball game, only instead of the ball bouncing wildly all over the place, it'd be deer running here and there, with everybody shooting at them, not knowing where the other hunters are at. Sounds too damn dangerous to me. With hunters on stands, or up in trees, it's quite a bit less likely somebody will be shot by accident... unless you're foolish enough to go sneaking around before dawn or at dusk, when you can be mistaken for a deer. Hunting from a tree stand is likely the safest form of deer hunting (unless you fall!) because you can see and identify your target better, and if you do miss with your shot, the downward angle puts your bullet safely into the ground.

The type of hunting you describe is called "still hunting". That's when a hunter moves slowly through the woods, and takes a long pause after each step, and surveys the surrounding woods carefully and slowly, looking for a deer. This type of hunting takes years of experience, and a helluva lot more patience than most people have. In today's world, everything is very fast paced. For 50 weeks a year, we hustle and bustle through life... then for two weeks we must completely put on the brakes, and take just one step every 5 minutes, and not take another until you're absolutely positive there's no deer in range? That's how the deer move about. Most people simply cannot adjust to such an abrupt change, and even if they could, they won't spot a deer that's doing the same thing. They move too quickly and too noisily through the woods, and the deer "bust" them everytime... and most of the time they don't even know it.

The deer's senses are so much more evolved than ours. We are in their territory, their "turf", and they do this, day in and day out, all their brief lives... or they die. If we lived like the native americans, and all we did was hunt for our food, 365 days a year, and our very survival depended on it, then we might be on a more level playing field with the animals we hunt. But we are accustomed to, and depend too much, on the technology in our "civilized" lives. We go-go-go-go 40-50-60 hrs a week to earn a living, it's not our nature anymore to have the stealth to hunt like you describe. Sadly, it has evolved out of us.

Another thing I've noticed, in guiding some city/suburban dwelling hunters, is they simply cannot see a deer, unless it's standing broadside in the open. This rarely happens in real life. These guys read Field & Stream and Outdoor Life, and see the nice color glossy photos of 'ole mossy-horns, standing broadside in an open field... and when they get out into the woods, that's what they expect to see. I've had hunters that would be 50-75yds from a real nice buck that I could see plain as day (even though he was mostly obscured by brush), and they just could not see him, no matter how hard I tried to point him out. The differance is, the only deer they ever see is on TV or in a magazine... or dashing across the highway in their headlights. They don't see enough deer in their natural habitat... how they move... what they eat... what to look for. I live where the deer live, and I can spot a deer in the woods from a long way off, simply because I'm used to it, as I see them day after day after day. I cannot even walk in my front yard without stepping in a pile of "raisenettes". :) I watch them come and I watch them go. I know what to look for... an ear, a black eyeball, horizontal shapes that don't belong - that turn out to be a deer's back, a leg, a white spot when there's no snow, the tips of antlers. Rarely will you be able to see the whole deer at one time. They are perfectly camoflaged by nature. All these little things mean a deer to me, but to most "deer hunters", they mean nothing, so they don't see 90% of the deer that see them first. It's pretty hard to "stalk" a deer when they see you first, 90% of the time.

axel
11-18-2003, 11:06
let me say thanks to all the input. I really do appreciate it. I guess I should have rephrased my original post. As I said, I have nothing against hunting and fully understand and agree with the reasons for hunting. I guess my real question wasn't, "Should people hunt?" but rather, "Why hunt with tree stands vs. stalking on foot?" Many of the posts have explained the reasoning and necessity for using tree stands so I think I now understand. Thanks again to all.

micah
11-21-2003, 08:41
Wisconsin deer hunter here. I agree actually somewhat with Axel. I like to hunt, but I don't really see any sport in it. I get at least one deer a year, usually more, there doesn't seem to be a lot of skill involved. I sit in a tree quietly and wait for them to walk past then I shoot them. I've been lucky enough to get some very nice bucks, and I'm veiwed by some in the area as a "master hunter" of sorts, though I've done nothing to earn such a title. I dunno, it's a great hobby, but being a succesful hunter is about 1000 times easier than being succesful at say, tennis. You can become a succesful hunter by reading a book and following it's instructions. Hunting does take patience, etc, but every year I seem to think it takes less skill.

My 2 cents as the season approches.

noway
11-21-2003, 09:45
{ I get at least one deer a year, usually more, there doesn't seem to be a lot of skill involved.}

If I can get one deer in a years time in my location,I would call myself bless or lucky.

Don't under-rate yourself. Some areas are plentiful with deer falling from the sky and others are sparsely populated. BUT all locations requires the same approach, thought and skill in order to bag a deer.