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kestrou
12-02-2003, 20:31
The following data is for Vihta Vuori N340, and was all chronyed at 60 degres through a stock Glock 20 (4.6" barrel) with a Pact Mark IV. Bullets are all 155gr West Coast JFP, with COL of 1.26", primers are Winchester Large Pistol.

Grains FPS FPE Power Factor
5.8 890.4 272.91 138.01
6.0 941.7 305.31 145.97
6.2 976.1 328.01 151.30
6.4 967.9 322.50 150.02
6.6 1011.6 352.31 156.80
6.8 1063.9 389.68 164.91
7.0 1096.3 413.72 169.92
7.2 1090.5 409.41 169.03
7.4 1116.7 429.30 173.09
7.6 1157.6 461.32 179.43
7.8 1184.9 483.32 183.66

VVN340 is a near perfect powder for 10mm loads below "nuclear" - meters very well and the cleanest burning powder I know of!

kestrou

TeamTupperware
01-09-2004, 10:16
If you need any data with viht powders...email me and let me know. I've probably tried all of them by now. If you want clean, then try N320 (use hot .40 data). If you're trying to build a cannon...try N350, it has very similar characteristics to AA#7.no_minor@yahoo.com

TeamTupperware
02-14-2004, 09:41
I was going to ask a couple of questions, but you've answered most of them. A stock G20...yup, I think you're just about perfect using N340. I've played with N105 a little, and have yet to try it in either of the bottleneck cases. If you have room in your case with N340 and would like a little softer feeling recoil, you might try a pound of N350 (quite possibly the world's most FORGIVING powder)and go nuts. The beauty of N350 is that it will only burn what it can in the barrel, the rest is in the form of a flame ball coming out the front of the gun.<P>
Make sure you're increasing your spring rate in the G20...recoil is about to get ugly.<P>
If you're going for speed, I've always had good luck with AA#7. Once you get the pressures up, it burns clean. <P>
Double check me sometime, but I think that if you fill both a 9x25 and a 357sig to the top, the sig will hold .3gr more than the 9X25. I think it's due to the internal web thickness.<P>
Lemme know how this all works out for you.
Brant P. Foster
A37364

spongeman66
02-26-2004, 12:11
I did a water weight measurement of 9X25 vs .357 Sig.
The 9X25 will hold 20% more water weight than the .357 Sig. (1.50 grams vs. 1.24 grams of H2O)
So, for the same size bullet, you can still get ~ 20% more powder (or more) in the 9X25 than the .357 Sig.


Does anybody have any 10mm (or 9X25) data (real world) on N-105? Is it too slow like AA#9 to develop Norma+ loads?

TeamTupperware
02-27-2004, 11:34
thanks for the difinitive answer, i must have had it backwards. Approx. 20% more?...ouch! That'll leave a mark!

spongeman66
03-08-2004, 11:30
http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/reloading.asp

Doesn't it just make you sick that VV seems to have loaded 40 S&W to NEARLY the same (< 1% diff) velocities as 10mm!!!!
They list both with a 5.5" barrel (which is pretty unrealistic)
And the 200grain 40 S&W load comes in at 1118 where the 200 grain 10mm load is 1125!!!
This is pretty consistent for them with like-powder types and bullet weights...

No wonder 10mm isn't more respected....

MrGlock21
03-12-2004, 22:40
As for the rather heavier bullets, 180gr and 195gr H&N bullets the best results happend with 3N37 and N105 in my G20. Actually, N105 was hot, awesome! Too bad, I cant recall the exact velocity.

spongeman66
03-20-2004, 22:42
Despite the anemic numbers published by VV, I ordered locally and received 1lb of 3n38 and 1lb of n105. Due to the currency exchange, (the store said...) I paid WAAAAY too much for this stuff.... $60 later (remember no haz mat fees for local purchases!?!?) and I am somewhat enlightened of both my wallet and my mind...
I am pretty impressed with both powders. Their measured density in grains/cc is nearly the same. 3n38 is 12.27, and N105 is 12.2. N105 is the first pistol powder I have seen that looks like an extruded rifle powder, and 3n38 is about the same color, but looks like n105 ground up into smaller pieces. I think n105 will dispense OK and 3n38 will dispense as good as anything. Both seemed low flash at all charges tested when shot in the daytime.

I have shot at least a box of DoubleTap ammo through my G29, and recorded the max head diameter of these rounds. The loads below produce similar head diameters or less in MY gun, and do not exceed the max head diameter I recorded with DoubleTap. I worked up both loads below starting at 10.0 grains.

Glock 29 Stock barrel
Rem 2 1/2 primers (be careful if you are using CCI 350s)
New Winchester Brass
COL 1.265
Remington 180 FMJ
5 shot strings
~ 80F
11.9 grains 3n38 Lo=1232 Hi=1245 ES=13 A=1235 SD=5
12.2 grains n105 Lo=1221 Hi=1236 ES=15 A=1228 SD=6
Phenomenal Standard Deviations! WOW!!!
3n38 is maxed at 11.9 in my gun, but n105 has a significant ways to go. It did not show anywhere near the DoubleTap head expansion.

In the IMR thread, McNett has published a 180XTP with 10.8 800X in a g29 @ 1265. 3n38 won't do it, but n105 has potential to match 800X. One more trip to the range should tell...

Tito
03-22-2004, 10:28
Thanks Spong!

I am particularly interested in the 3N38, but also the N105.

Why do you believe the 11.9g. of 3N38 is maxed out at 11.9?

When you refer to the "head" do you mean the very bottom of the case wall where the bulging occurs in a non-fully supported chamber?

Any signs of over-pressure with respect to the primer?

Good work, I'm looking forward to your next trip to the range!

Tito

spongeman66
03-22-2004, 11:27
This is what I am talking about! (http://glockfaq.com/reloading.htm#erm)

Please read the glock faq before attempting to "Work-up" loads.
Stay Safe!
Sponge

Tito
03-23-2004, 12:26
Here's a 3N38 thread from pistolsmith.com:

http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?p=115304#115304

Tito
03-25-2004, 09:19
Sponge:

I was browsing my VV load manual last evening and I must say I am intigued by N105. I think you're on to something! Maybe this is McNett's mysterious powder that he puts in Double Tap?

It's really a shame that VV provides such crappy data. This holds true for not only the 10mm cartridge, but for the applications of their own powder as well. As an example, in the description of their product they describe 3N38 as a good choice for .38 super and 9mm with moderate bullet weights, and then they don't provide load data for a single .38 super load in the table. WTF? They only describe loads for 147g bullets in the 9mm table. WTF?

I think VV powder is good stuff, but the Finns sure aren't marketing it very well!!!!!!!!!!:( :( :(

spongeman66
04-04-2004, 21:53
Finished my load workup for N105:
Glock 29 Stock barrel
Rem 2 1/2 primers (be careful if you are using CCI 350s)
New Winchester Brass
COL 1.265
Remington 180 FMJ
5 shot strings
~ 70F

12.3 n105 Lo=1234 Hi=1274 ES=40 A=1245 SD=16
12.5 n105 Lo=1252 Hi=1263 ES=11 A=1257 SD=4
12.7 n105 Lo=1256 Hi=1265 ES=9 A=1259 SD=3

Not much difference between 12.5 and 12.7. Both showed acceptable head expansion measurements for my barrel. Personally, I will pick 12.5 grains as my Max.

There was a huge jump in velocity at 12.9 (1281 FPS), but the head expansions were significantly more than I want.

Head expansions were OK in my 6" Jarvis barrel up to 13.1 n105
13.1 n105 Lo=1426 Hi=1446 ES=20 A=1438 SD=9

Stay Safe!
Sponge

spongeman66
04-04-2004, 21:59
As a side note, I shot 10.8 800X behind the same 180 FMJ bullets w/Rem 2 1/2 primers. In MY guns, I got 1221 FPS from my Stock G29, and 1410 FPS from my Jarvis 6" barrel.
11.0 of 800X produced a head expansion greater than desired, so McNett's 10.8 meets the head expansion criteria I have stated above...
800X may do better when ignited by CCI-350s...

spongeman66
04-13-2004, 10:00
I am impressed with N105 in all of my guns.
With the 3n38 below, I think I rushed the settling of my powder dispenser, and I got some higher than desired charges. After the first 10 rounds, the Head expansion was at or below my target max.


180 Remington FMJFP
New Winchester Brass
Rem 2 1/2 primers
COL 1.265"
~ 55F
9 or 10 shot strings on all barrels

12.5 N105
Gun/barrel Lo Hi ES Avg SD
G29 1249 1282 33 1266 9
G20 1330 1355 25 1339 7
1911 5" 1342 1380 38 1358 12
G20 Jarvis 6" 1388 1430 42 1412 16

11.9 3n38
TOO HOT: Saw one round with a smailey on G29.
My powder measure may have needed to settle down about 5-10 rounds.
I shot the first 10 rounds in my G29, and I had one round with a
smiley and 6 of 10 had higher than desired head expansion.
The 1911 rounds showed below desired max head expansion, and the G20
had one round at the desired max expansion.
Gun/barrel Lo Hi ES Avg SD
G29 1239 1273 34 1260 10
G20 1302 1335 33 1319 11
1911 5" 1320 1345 25 1331 9
G20 Jarvis 6" 1351 1407 56 1386 15


Stay Safe!
Sponge

spongeman66
05-22-2004, 21:25
200 XTP
New Winchester Brass
Rem 2 1/2 Primer
COL 1.265"
~ 85F
Stock G29
The loads shown below have some more potential, because my max head expansion was not reached with any of these loads. The N105 is becoming compressed enough to start deforming the hollow point a little, so there really isn't much more case capacity left...

N105 Lo Hi ES Avg SD
10.1 1042 1110 18 1102 7
10.3 1104 1114 10 1109 3

Medpilot 2
08-08-2004, 17:55
Just got back from the range, and I have to say I like this N105 stuff. No flash, clean burning and good numbers with low pressure.

N105 / Zero 180gr FMJ / Starline brass / CCI 350 / OAL 1.255"

Glock 29 KKM Barrel

5 shot ave

9.3=1036
9.6=1072
9.9=1113
10.2=1140
11.0=1223
11.5=1249
12.0=1290
12.3=1303
12.6=1309

I tried to make a 12.9gr charge, but I could only get the bullet down to about 1.270". Primers started to flatten after 11.0grs. but not bad.

Samething as above except these numbers are with N350

6 shot ave

5.9=871
6.5=965
7.0=1045
7.5=1089
8.0=1144

I had my best accuracy with 8.0grs. There's no flame with this sutff and it burns clean too. I think I like N105 better though.

paalpede
08-22-2004, 06:13
Hello

I use 10,4 gr v-105 in starline brass and 180 sierra jhp and it gives me 1204fps from stock barrel and 1300 fps from a 6" kkm barrel. Col.1.260.

With fmj's it's about 50 to 100 fps lover.

The big thing is her in Norway you cant get hands on hot factory ammo.
So I don't have a clue how much casehead expansion I should accept.

Could anybody help me?

If i recall on the jhp loads in stock barrel the case head measurd 0.435". About the same with 6.5 gr of n-340 and 180 partizan fmj.

spongeman66
08-22-2004, 14:49
It would be best if you can find the measurement to 4 decimal places. I use a stainless dial caliper. It has about 1/16 of an inch between tick marks. I read the first 3 digits directly from the caliper, then I GUESS at the 4th digit. This is a perfectly acceptable scientific method. Scientists do this with Thermometers, pipettes, etc...I practiced with about 5 random casings until I could repeat measurements within about 0.0001.

I will PM you with some more details.
Stay Safe!
Sponge

paalpede
08-28-2004, 12:15
Thank you for the info spongeman66. Could anyone post a picture of a no good smiley? My primers look normal to me, but then again I'am new to glock's.

Here in Norway we have something called fieldshooting. And we have 8 classes.

- finfelt(only .22's)
- grovfelt (.25-38)
- revolverfelt(.38-.45)
-militrfelt(9mm-.45 minimum faktor 120)
magnum1 (.357-.40 faktor 190 + minimum brass leght 25mm)
magnum2 (.41-454)faktor 275
Spesialpistol (.22-.45 pocketpistols only)
spesialrevolver(.22-.45 snubnose only)

I use my G20 in magnum1 and G29 in spesialpistol. So I only need about 1070 fps w/180gr bullets in magnum.

But just for fun I like to see how much power I can get out of my G20.

We are a small group of 10mm owners in norway so the only way to get ammo is to load it. There is some factory ammo you can buy, got an offer on 500 federal classic 180gr. But when it cost allmost 7Nok or one $ for one shell you don't buy.

kestrou
08-28-2004, 13:25
paalpede,

I posted one in this thread: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211007

If you see that in your hand - STOP! ;f

kestrou

paalpede
08-29-2004, 02:21
Thank you very much.

I allways thougt the smiley had something to do with the primer.

G-20er
09-13-2004, 13:20
Just received my first pound of VV 3N38 powder and will be working up loads in the G-20 using the 200gr. XTP bullet. Due to no real load data being available, an educated guess with aftermarket barrel will put my starting loads at 9.5 grains, then moving to 10, 10.5 and last group to be fired if pressure is still within limits will be 10.8 grains. Will post the data here as soon as I get these rounds through my chronograph. Looking to reach somewhere around 1225 fps.

G-20er
09-19-2004, 17:35
Here is the data using VV 3N38 and the 200 grain XTP Bullet. Anybody ever seen a handgun load with a 4.2 on standard deviation. That is great!!! This was the most accurate powder I have used yet. All 10 rounds were in a 3 inch diameter circle from 25 yards using open sights and a rest on barrel side of gun only.

G-20 with stock length KKM barrel
Starline Brass
CCI 300 primers (do not use mag primers with this powder).
OAL 1.250

Please Note: do not try to fire these loads in a stock Glock barrel. 9.3 was max load for the stock Glock barrel. See bottom of page for further information.




9.5 grains:
GROUP #6
1) 1163.0 14.8
2) 1160.0 11.8
3) 1152.0 3.8
4) 1134.0 -14.2
5) 1131.0 -17.2
6) 1141.0 -7.2
7) 1152.0 3.8
8) 1146.0 -2.2
9) 1149.0 0.8
10) 1154.0 5.8
High: 1163.0
Low: 1131.0
E.S.: 32.0
Ave.: 1148.2
S.D.: 10.4
95%: 8.0




10 grains:
GROUP #7
1) 1196.0 11.4
2) 1182.0 -2.6
3) 1194.0 9.4
4) 1192.0 7.4
5) 1174.0 -10.6
6) 1182.0 -2.6
7) 1183.0 -1.6
8) 1182.0 -2.6
9) 1184.0 -0.6
10) 1178.0 -6.6
High: 1196.0
Low: 1174.0
E.S.: 22.0
Ave.: 1184.6
S.D.: 7.0
95%: 6.0






10.5 grains:
GROUP #9
1) 1229.0 7.4
2) 1224.0 2.4
3) 1226.0 4.4
4) 1223.0 1.4
5) 1218.0 -3.6
6) 1215.0 -6.6
7) 1221.0 -0.6
8) 1218.0 -3.6
9) 1221.0 -0.6
High: 1229.0
Low: 1215.0
E.S.: 14.0
Ave.: 1221.6
S.D.: 4.2
95%: 4.0




10.8 grains:
GROUP #10
1) 1261.0 8.6
2) 1252.0 -0.4
3) 1246.0 -6.4
4) 1252.0 -0.4
5) 1252.0 -0.4
6) 1257.0 4.6
7) 1254.0 1.6
8) 1251.0 -1.4
9) 1248.0 -4.4
High: 1261.0
Low: 1246.0
E.S.: 15.0
Ave.: 1252.4
S.D.: 4.4
95%: 4.0

Maximum safe load with stock Glock barrel was 9.3 grains of VV 3N38 at 65 F OAT. This load produced only 1135 fps. 9.5 grains don't even try it with the stock Glock barrel. Very heavy smileys on all cases. I believe this powder was actually designed for lighter weight bullets in mind.

Maximum safe load using KKM barrel was 10.5 grains of VV 3N38 at 65 F OAT. This load produced 1221 fps with a SD of a low 4.2 I took the load as high as 10.8 but got light smileys on 75% of brass. 10.8 grains of VV 3N38 gave 1252 fps which matches DoubleTap Ammo; however, Mikes DT Ammo is running at much lower pressures and much safer.

I am learning that with the KKM aftermarket barrel with powders in this burn range, you can load 10% more powder which gives you approximately 110 fps more with same pressure signs as compared to the Glock stock barrel.

Medpilot 2
09-19-2004, 18:18
Great info, thanks for posting.

Got to love VV powders.:)

G-20er
09-19-2004, 18:50
Yes VV is the best so far for over the counter purchases. This will be my keeper load with the 200gr. XTP bullets. Load density was like 99% and this powder meters perfectly. What a great combo for the 10mm.

Mairsil
10-15-2004, 17:20
I had the chance to shoot some of my reloads of a Chrono tonight, and I thought I might as well share the results with you. I've only loaded a couple of hundred rounds so far, so it may be that my powder charges aren't that precise, though I've tried to keep them constant.

All of these are average for 4-5 shots (few errors from the Chrony):

190gn Privi FMJ
COL 1.255"
Glock 20 stock barrel
VithaVuori N105
Winchester Large Pistol primers
New Starline brass

VVN105 - Avg FPS - StdDev

11.0gn -- 1180 ----- 9
11.3gn -- 1198 ---- 18
11.6gn -- 1210 ----- 7
11.9gn -- 1210 ----- 7
12.5gn -- 1275 ---- 18

My 'easy load' that I plan to use for standard class IPSC nicely met it's expectations:

8.5gn ---- 914 ---- 39

Which is PF 174, though the deviation is a bit high.

I couldn't quite match the 240gn @ 1285fps my girlfriend is shooting though... ^8

paalpede
10-24-2004, 13:27
I tried some loads with n-110. It's abit to slow. But if someone have good ideas how to compress the load(not only bullet)it could be usefull.

kestrou
10-25-2004, 20:27
OK Gang, I've got the complete spectrum of Vihta Vouri N340 worked out for 10mm 155Gr FMJ - complete with graph!

The following data was all chronyed in a single range session at 75 degres through a stock Glock 20 (4.6" barrel) with a Pact Mark IV. Bullets are all 155gr West Coast Truncated Cone, with COL of 1.260", primers are CCI. The data is based on 6-shot samples (throwing no data out as fliers).

Grains FPS FPE PowerFactor
5.4 867.33 258.98 134.44
5.6 868.67 259.77 134.64
5.8 904.33 281.54 140.17
6.0 928.67 296.90 143.94
6.2 967.50 322.25 149.96
6.4 1033.33 367.59 160.17
6.6 1030.00 365.23 159.65
6.8 1054.50 382.81 163.45
7.0 1079.67 401.30 167.35
7.2 1123.33 434.42 174.12
7.4 1162.83 465.50 180.24
7.6 1171.83 472.74 181.63
7.8 1208.83 503.06 187.37
8.0 1218.00 510.72 188.79
8.2 1233.17 523.52 191.14
8.4 1246.33 534.76 193.18
8.6 1263.33 549.44 195.82
8.8 1297.50 579.57 201.11
9.0 1302.33 583.89 201.86
9.2 1333.50 612.17 206.69

Here's a graph on the Grains vs. FPS, FPE, & PF:

http://www.kestrou.com/images/10mm-VVN340-155GrFMJ.gif
For some stinking reason the image won't embed - have to just link to it - sorry!

At the low end, the slide on my G-20 still cycled reliably, but it's had over 20K rounds through it and the recoil spring is definitely ready for replacement. On the high end, I could definitely start to see the imprint of the firing pin channel in the primer, but they weren't noticeably flattening out yet and there was no sign of "smilies".

Having said that: As always, the following Disclaimer applies to this reloading data (and any other you may find published here on GT, or anywhere!): "This worked in one person's gun, and might not work in yours. Start low and work up at your own risk!"

kestrou

BuffaloBo
10-25-2004, 22:08
Is that the highest you can achieve(1333 fps) using a 155 grainer? I'd assume you'd be able to push 'em to at least 1450 or even higher with your selected powder.

When I played with 155 gr Hornady's using a few powders, I even considered the 1400 fps mark unimpressive.

kestrou
10-25-2004, 23:19
B-Bo,

That's the highest I'd loaded up that day! I figured I'd have smilies at about 8.5gr and would never even shoot the 9.2gr, but that didn't happen.

I need to go back and load up rounds from 9.2 to about 12.0 - and guessing the dreaded smilies will stop me somewhere around 10gr. ;f

I'm hoping Santy Claus brings me an electronic powder dispenser so I can work up a similar "complete spectrum" for 180 gr bullets with N340, and both bullet weights for N350 and N105. Tedious work measuring each load by hand...

kestrou

Lithium
11-20-2004, 15:05
Anybody have data for 165, 180 and 200 gr w/ 340?

My batch of starline brass just came in and it's time to load up for my G20.

Thanks!

kestrou
11-22-2004, 13:22
Lithium,

I've got a pile of 180gr sitting on my bench and the powder trickler is currently in the hands of UPS on it's way - so hang on, buddy - got your 6! ;f

kestrou

Lithium
11-22-2004, 18:57
Thanks, will look for your post.

I'll start with some of the VV loads and see where I go from there on my end. ;)

Lithium
12-02-2004, 00:04
Clocked my loads today, out of a stock G20 barrel:

6.9gr N340, Montana Gold 165 JHP 10 shot string: 1038fps, ES = 30, SD = 8.

7.5gr N340, Montana Gold 180 FMJ 10 shot string: 1127fps, ES = 41, SD = 11.

More do testing next week.

paalpede
03-09-2005, 14:12
Has Mcnett ever used or published data with n-105?

Kaceyx73
08-05-2005, 13:58
Im looking for 2 basic loads for my G20. First, for 165 Gold Dots and 165 FMJ. Secondly, a hunting load for 200 XTP's. I like what Im hearing about VV powders, so any suggestions? For reference, my G20 is completely stock. I do want a full power load, but without trying to over pressure.

Tuf Toy
07-25-2006, 11:14
I'm looking to make up a load for my Delta using VV N350 , CCI primers and 165gr Gold Dots (how is the Starline brass?) Have to admit I'm a little peeved at Lapua and Vihtavuori . No mater what powder question you have they will not give you a solid answer. I know they don't want the liability , but how hard would it be for them to actual test their powders with different weight bullets. If they did they'd sell more powder! (Sorry rant over) It should be obvious by now that VV does not list a 165 gold dot (or any other 165gr bullet) for a 10mm Auto load. If any one has worked up any #'s using N350 I'd appreciate what they found.
PS . Is there a good inexpensive Chronograph available, (than I can publish what I find also.)
Thanks in advance

Lithium
07-11-2007, 04:41
Not much activity in here. Got a chance to shoot some of my latest 10mm loads out of a stock G20 today and thought I'd post something:

VV N340, loaded to 1.260 OAL, Bullets are all Montana Gold. Brass is new Starline brass. Lit with Winchester Large/Magnum Primers. Temp was around 82 deg.

10 rounds each.

9.0grs under 155 JHP -> 1317 fps, SD 10fps
8.6grs under 165 JHP -> 1239 fps, SD 8 fps
7.8grs under 180 FMJ -> 1139 fps, SD 4 fps
7.0grs under 200 TMJ -> 1039 fps, SD 4 fps

These loads range from 41,400 psi to just under 44,000 psi according to Quickloads's calculations with corrected case capacity using (H20). My goal was to stay under the original 10mm 44,000 psi spec pressure.

I didn't see any signs of overpressure but will clean up the brass and re-inspect. I'm sure there's room to go up but it'd probably be easier to start with a more appropriate powder.

Accuracy was good. Shot at 25 yards off a bench and the smallest 10 shot group was only about 3.5" with the largest group being approx 6.5".

For reference I also shot two factory loads I found at Cabelas:

Buffalo Bore 180gr Gold Dots -> 1284fps w/ SD of 18.
Hornady 200gr XTP -> 1030fps w/ SD of 38.

Have fun and please work your loads up carefully.

barretm4
07-22-2007, 17:16
Chrono'd with my new CED m2

VihtaVuori N105
stock glock 29
cci 350's
180 grain XTP's

10 grains
1047
1082
1068
1057
1054
1058
1055
1056
1053
Average was 1058
SD 9
ES 35

only got 9 shots in.

look forward to working with n105, gonna wait till i get some standard primers tho......

Well I decided to give her a go again....
everything same as above except

10.5 grains
1102
1118
1106
1105
1115
1093
1105
1096
1110
1108
Average was 1106
SD 7
ES 25

barretm4
07-29-2007, 18:18
same as above
11.5 grains N105
1136
1163
1127
1161
1140
1141
1144
1139
1136
1156

average 1144
SD 11
ES 36

alank2
08-14-2007, 17:56
Hi,

I'm thinking about loading some 180gr HP's with some n105. My velocity goal from a stock G20 is around 1200 fps.

I saw a bunch of n105 data earlier in this thread, how many of these loads are compressed? At 1.260" QuickLoad seems to think you can only get 9.6 grains in a case without compressing. I noticed some of the loads posted above are in the 12+ grains category...

I'm trying to decide between n105 and 3n37 for a starting powder.

Thanks,

Alan

f4tweet
11-26-2007, 23:17
I tried to use 105 for my 10mm and didn't care for it. I think the VV site specs are WAY off their published velocity. I don't have a chrono but the only difference I could feel was slide velocity and dings in the cases and flattened primers. I just used my 105 in my .41 Mag yesterday with a Hornaday 180GR XTP with 14.6 gr. I think it was about 1400 fps. The Lee manual listed a max of 15.1c is 1480fps. I thought 14.6 was plenty.

whenmonkeysfly
01-23-2009, 12:31
I was going to ask a couple of questions, but you've answered most of them. A stock G20...yup, I think you're just about perfect using N340. I've played with N105 a little, and have yet to try it in either of the bottleneck cases. If you have room in your case with N340 and would like a little softer feeling recoil, you might try a pound of N350 (quite possibly the world's most FORGIVING powder)and go nuts. The beauty of N350 is that it will only burn what it can in the barrel, the rest is in the form of a flame ball coming out the front of the gun.<P>
Make sure you're increasing your spring rate in the G20...recoil is about to get ugly.<P>
If you're going for speed, I've always had good luck with AA#7. Once you get the pressures up, it burns clean. <P>
Double check me sometime, but I think that if you fill both a 9x25 and a 357sig to the top, the sig will hold .3gr more than the 9X25. I think it's due to the internal web thickness.<P>
Lemme know how this all works out for you.
Brant P. Foster
A37364

I've got a few pounds of N350, CCI 300 (large pistol) primers, Starline 10mm brass and 180 grain Oregon Trail Laser Cast bullets. Any recommendations on powder charges? I'd like to work up to full 10mm loads. Thanks in advance!

f4tweet
01-23-2009, 13:02
Hi Doc, I used Oregon Trail bullets and they smoke a lot when fired. The barrel was also dirty. I use Rainier 180 gr. FP, not RNFP. 11.0 gr of AA-7, 1.250 OAL, WLP. and a crimp of .421. This is a published load for 1200 fps. Semper Fi Doc!

whenmonkeysfly
01-23-2009, 13:56
Hi Doc, I used Oregon Trail bullets and they smoke a lot when fired. The barrel was also dirty. I use Rainier 180 gr. FP, not RNFP. 11.0 gr of AA-7, 1.250 OAL, WLP. and a crimp of .421. This is a published load for 1200 fps. Semper Fi Doc!

Stationed at Quantico in '72... took care of many U.S. Marines coming back from 'nam - trauma/surgery. You guys are great!

I've got some Speer 180 gr. TMJ (value pkg) bullets too. In "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 10mm and .40S&W", powder burning rate chart, in order of burn rates, N350 is #32 and AA#7 is #34 (suggesting N350 is a little faster). Could I substitute AA#7 for N350? (I'm shooting a G20 with a Lone Wolf fully supported barrel.) I got the N350 for .40S&W reloads, but like shooting the 10mm more. Appreciate any advice/input. Semper Fi!

f4tweet
01-23-2009, 14:04
Hi Doc. I don't see why not. I would use 1.260 OAL, and start your loads at 9.6. I would check Lee's Second Edition to see if they list a comparable bullet combo with a jacketed bullet. You will use more powder with jacketed. If you have feeding problems, shorten to 1.250. Corpsman took good care of me at Chu Lai, Great Lakes, and the Naval Hospital at Beaufort. My son was born at Beaufort Naval Hospital.

whenmonkeysfly
01-25-2009, 07:33
The 2009 VihtaVuori Powder Manual:

"N350 - This is the slowest burning N300 series handgun powder,
which can usually be used instead of Accurate No.7, IMR Hi-
Skor 800-X and Alliant Blue Dot. Appropriate choice for many
powerful handgun loads, for example in calibers 9 mm Luger,
10 mm AUTO and .45 ACP."

http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/esitteet/VihtavuoriInternationalReloguide2009.pdf

old wanderer
07-12-2009, 21:32
In case anyone ever shows up on this forum again...:wavey:

I have several Glock 20 barrel configurations....most are ported.

In reading seems like the porting likes the lighter faster bullets rather than the heavy slower ones...

So I was looking for data on the 135 gr bullet.

My barrels are:

G20 with 5.2" with 2 external ports and 2 internal "c" ports.

G20 With a Tactical slide and 4 internal ports.

G29 with 2 external ports...

I have several classes comming up where follow up shots are really important. Did well last time with the stock Glock 20c, butl not starting to build something faster/better.

7.62FMJ
12-09-2009, 18:53
What about N340 pushing a 200gr? Anyone try this?

7.62FMJ
12-13-2009, 18:59
Here is the data using VV 3N38 and the 200 grain XTP Bullet. Anybody ever seen a handgun load with a 4.2 on standard deviation. That is great!!! This was the most accurate powder I have used yet. All 10 rounds were in a 3 inch diameter circle from 25 yards using open sights and a rest on barrel side of gun only.

G-20 with stock length KKM barrel
Starline Brass
CCI 300 primers (do not use mag primers with this powder).
OAL 1.250

Please Note: do not try to fire these loads in a stock Glock barrel. 9.3 was max load for the stock Glock barrel. See bottom of page for further information.




9.5 grains:
GROUP #6
1) 1163.0 14.8
2) 1160.0 11.8
3) 1152.0 3.8
4) 1134.0 -14.2
5) 1131.0 -17.2 ƒ
6) 1141.0 -7.2
7) 1152.0 3.8
8) 1146.0 -2.2
9) 1149.0 0.8
10) 1154.0 5.8
High: 1163.0
Low: 1131.0
E.S.: 32.0
Ave.: 1148.2
S.D.: 10.4
95%: 8.0




10 grains:
GROUP #7
1) 1196.0 11.4 ƒ
2) 1182.0 -2.6
3) 1194.0 9.4
4) 1192.0 7.4
5) 1174.0 -10.6
6) 1182.0 -2.6
7) 1183.0 -1.6
8) 1182.0 -2.6
9) 1184.0 -0.6
10) 1178.0 -6.6
High: 1196.0
Low: 1174.0
E.S.: 22.0
Ave.: 1184.6
S.D.: 7.0
95%: 6.0





Maximum safe load with stock Glock barrel was 9.3 grains of VV 3N38 at 65 F OAT. This load produced only 1135 fps. 9.5 grains don't even try it with the stock Glock barrel. Very heavy smileys on all cases. I believe this powder was actually designed for lighter weight bullets in mind.

Maximum safe load using KKM barrel was 10.5 grains of VV 3N38 at 65 F OAT. This load produced 1221 fps with a SD of a low 4.2 I took the load as high as 10.8 but got light smileys on 75% of brass. 10.8 grains of VV 3N38 gave 1252 fps which matches DoubleTap Ammo; however, Mikes DT Ammo is running at much lower pressures and much safer.

I am learning that with the KKM aftermarket barrel with powders in this burn range, you can load 10% more powder which gives you approximately 110 fps more with same pressure signs as compared to the Glock stock barrel.



I can confirm your numbers data for VV3N38 using the 9.5gr and 10 gr using 200gr XTP. However tested the 9.5gr out of the stock barrel and 10gr out of an LWD stock length barrel.

Signs of pressure at 10gr but nothing serious.

snair
12-13-2009, 19:33
If you need any data with viht powders...email me and let me know. I've probably tried all of them by now. If you want clean, then try N320 (use hot .40 data). If you're trying to build a cannon...try N350, it has very similar characteristics to AA#7.no_minor@yahoo.com (AA#7.no_minor@yahoo.com)im loading 3.7 of 310 200gswc 45s for ppc. do you know the difference between the 310 and 320? thanks

7.62FMJ
12-13-2009, 21:15
Why does Vhit not post the correct data with their N105? 9gr pushing a 200gr XTP only yielded about 1050 FPS. They show 1162 with only 8.6gr. Something is not right.

robert91922
06-26-2010, 14:30
Why does Vhit not post the correct data with their N105? 9gr pushing a 200gr XTP only yielded about 1050 FPS. They show 1162 with only 8.6gr. Something is not right.
Maybe it's different barrel length, barrel type, primers ...

robert91922
08-07-2010, 15:02
- Glock 20 stock barrel -- EDIT: (previously I misstyped it and stated as "Glock 21") :embarassed:
- primers: CCI LP
- powder: VV N105
- bullets: Winchester JHP 180gr
- brass: Starline (new)
- COAL: 1.256
- temperature: 50 F (10 C)


load (grains) average (fps)
10,0..............1128
10,2..............1144
10,4..............1189
10,6..............1193
10,8..............1213
11,0..............1227

No signs of overpressure yet.

alank2
08-07-2010, 15:49
Hi snair,

n320 is a bit slower that than n310. n320 is my "goto" powder for any sort of light load I want. I've used it in 45/70, 38 special, etc.

robert91922 - be very careful, VV doesn't show n105 loads for 45acp and n105 is very very slow.

Good luck,

Alan

robert91922
08-08-2010, 03:20
Hi snair,

n320 is a bit slower that than n310. n320 is my "goto" powder for any sort of light load I want. I've used it in 45/70, 38 special, etc.

robert91922 - be very careful, VV doesn't show n105 loads for 45acp and n105 is very very slow.

Good luck,

Alan
ups, I misstyped it. It is a 10mm Glock 20 of course, NOT 45acp Glock21.
I even don't own anything in 45acp caliber.

alank2 - thanks for warning anyway :cool:

robert91922
10-12-2010, 13:02
EDIT (10-22-2010): These measured data is ALL WRONG BECAUSE OF TOO SHORT DISTANCE BETWEEN CHRONO SCREENS!!! Look at my another post a little below :embarassed:
___________________________________
Here you are, finally I succeeded to load and measure the next generation of my 10mm babies:
- Glock 20 stock barrel
- recoil spring: DPM MS Glock20 3-spring system - http://www.dpmsystems.com/en/products/
- primers: CCI 300 LP
- powder: VV N105
- bullets: Winchester JHP 180gr
- brass: Starline (new)
- COAL: 1.260
- temperature: 54 F (12C)

Special thanks to: Mr. Jan S.M. - owner of "my" :embarassed: Dillon XL650 and Mr. Bostjan P. - owner of the range closest to my residence

load (grains) average (fps)
11,2..............1319
11,4..............1340
11,6..............1360
11,8..............1372
12,0..............1375
12,2..............1386

No signs of overpressure till 12,2gr, when third case out of 3 had a 10mm crack along in the middle, so I suppose 12,0gr would be maximum for this configuration. I was using 3 mags, only 1 round in each mag to prevent warming of next round in chamber while I'm writing down measured speed and taking a good look to a case just spent. I was using Acuna Brass Catcher, which caught almost all cases if I fixed it to sit properly on pistol rail after each shot -had only to pull it back 2 or 3 mm to fit.
On the lower edge of each case I found a scratch, probably caused by extractor.
And YES, I still have all my 10 fingers on :embarassed:

And here's some pictures:

robert91922
10-17-2010, 00:26
Here you are, finally I succeeded to load and measure the next generation of my 10mm babies:
- Glock 20 stock barrel
- recoil spring: DPM MS Glock20 3-spring system - http://www.dpmsystems.com/en/products/
- primers: CCI 300 LP
- powder: VV N105
- bullets: Winchester JHP 180gr
- brass: Starline (new)
- COAL: 1.260
- temperature: 54 F (12C)

Special thanks to: Mr. Jan S.M. - owner of "my" :embarassed: Dillon XL650 and Mr. Bostjan P. - owner of the range closest to my residence

load (grains) average (fps)
11,2..............1319
11,4..............1340
11,6..............1360
11,8..............1372
12,0..............1375
12,2..............1386

No signs of overpressure till 12,2gr, when third case out of 3 had a 10mm crack along in the middle, so I suppose 12,0gr would be maximum for this configuration. I was using 3 mags, only 1 round in each mag to prevent warming of next round in chamber while I'm writing down measured speed and taking a good look to a case just spent. I was using Acuna Brass Catcher, which caught almost all cases if I fixed it to sit properly on pistol rail after each shot -had only to pull it back 2 or 3 mm to fit.
On the lower edge of each case I found a scratch, probably caused by extractor.
And YES, I still have all my 10 fingers on :embarassed:

And here's some pictures:
Well, comparing this data with other similar loads from other reloaders (180gr/N105)... I am not sure anymore that these mine are correct. I will repeat measuring these loads with another chronograph and post it :embarassed:

old wanderer
10-17-2010, 13:47
Well, comparing this data with other similar loads from other reloaders (180gr/N105)... I am not sure anymore that these mine are correct. I will repeat measuring these loads with another chronograph and post it :embarassed:

I would do exactly that....2 things I notice:

1. Your primers are not what I would call "great". The flowing of the firing pin hole is not not normal.

2. The splitting of the cases indicates high pressure..

a. check your powder calibration again. (How did you weigh and meter your powder?)

b. check the distance between screens on the crono.

In looking at the 1st page of the reloading date here:

180 Remington FMJFP
New Winchester Brass
Rem 2 1/2 primers
COL 1.265"
~ 55F
9 or 10 shot strings on all barrels

12.5 N105
Gun/barrel Lo Hi ES Avg SD
G29 1249 1282 33 1266 9
G20 1330 1355 25 1339 7
1911 5" 1342 1380 38 1358 12
G20 Jarvis 6" 1388 1430 42 1412 16

It indicates in 4 different guns a load of 12.5 was working normal. Only difference is the Rem 2 1/2 primer vs a CCI 300. If you had been using CCI 350 it would explain the difference.

Since I have 200 rounds sitting here ready to load with VV 105, I am very interested in your conclusions.

robert91922
10-18-2010, 12:54
Today I reloaded the same stuff again (Winchester JHP 180gr & VV N105 from 11,2gr to 12,2gr).
I hope I will succeed to go to the range this week and chrono them. This time I will take more care about Chrony, because I'm almost sure that last time I didn't extend it enough - to the end, so distance between screens was too short.

"old wanderer": I changed a firing pin spring from standard to "Red - 28 Newton"
http://www.glock.com/english/options_firingpinspring.htm
so firing pin holes are a bit deeper.
Powder was weighed on Dillon electronic scale, I load on Dillon XL650.
Yes, I noticed some case bulging at unsupported area but I use my *-----* brass only once for such hot loads. After this "torture" it will be still ok for mild target loads.
3 days ago I received another package of 10mm brass from Luxemburg, I paid 253 EUR for 1k. (1EUR = 1.4USD$) Too bad that Starline does not send it anymore outside US directly to customers.

robert91922
10-21-2010, 23:00
3 days ago I have loaded another batch of Win JHP 180gr and VV N105 11,2gr-12,2gr. Yesterday I made also 12,4 - 12,8gr and today's sunny afternoon I had a lot of 10mm pleasure on range:

load (grains) average (fps)
11,2..............1223
11,4..............1238
11,6..............1245
11,8..............1255
12,0..............1265
12,2..............1286
12,4..............1291
12,6..............1300
12,8..............1302

- Glock 20 stock barrel
- recoil spring: DPM MS Glock20 3-spring system - http://www.dpmsystems.com/en/products/
- primers: CCI 300 LP
- powder: VV N105
- bullets: Winchester JHP 180gr
- brass: Starline (new) and Winchester (new)
- COAL: 1.260 - 1.263
- temperature: 54 F (12C)

I noticed some case bulging at unsupported area but no glock smileys yet. Almost all brass (except 2) could be reused for some mild target loads.
Anyway if I want to go further with some hotter loads I have to wait for IGB full supported barrel.
Pictures of brass to be followed in this same post, probably tomorrow.

robert91922
10-27-2010, 13:49
3 days ago I have loaded another batch of Win JHP 180gr and VV N105 11,2gr-12,2gr. Yesterday I made also 12,4 - 12,8gr and today's sunny afternoon I had a lot of 10mm pleasure on range:

load (grains) average (fps)
11,2..............1223
11,4..............1238
11,6..............1245
11,8..............1255
12,0..............1265
12,2..............1286
12,4..............1291
12,6..............1300
12,8..............1302

- Glock 20 stock barrel
- recoil spring: DPM MS Glock20 3-spring system http://www.dpmsystems.com/en/products/
- primers: CCI 300 LP
- powder: VV N105
- bullets: Winchester JHP 180gr
- brass: Starline (new) and Winchester (new)
- COAL: 1.260 - 1.263
- temperature: 54 F (12C)

I noticed some case bulging at unsupported area but no glock smileys yet. Almost all brass (except 3) could be reused for some mild target loads.
Anyway if I want to go further with some hotter loads I have to wait for IGB full supported barrel.
Pictures of brass to be followed in this same post, probably tomorrow.
Finally I took a photo of 24 cases used, sorry for such delay. 3 cases are damaged at the edge, I don't know what happened nor why. Details about these 3 cases will be posted separately.

robert91922
11-20-2010, 18:10
Last few weeks I was working on my 10mm hunting load or better said my SD load for/when stirring out an angry wounded wild boar from bushes.
This week new full supported IGB barrel has finally arrived and today I was testing my 200gr babies:

Equipment/conditions:
- Glock 20
- IGB custom barrel 4.6" with full supported chamber
- primers: CCI LP 300
- recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21
- powder: Vihtavuori N105
- bullets: Hornady XTP 200gr
- brass: Winchester (new)
- OAL: 1.260 to 1.275 (depending on load)
- temperature: 52 oF (11 oC)
- 1 string: 3 shots only
- distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
- I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after every third string (after 9 shots)


load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)
9,6.................1072
10,0.................1108
10,3.................1113
10,6.................1147
10,8.................1153
11,0.................1172
11,2.................1191
11,4.................1199
11,6.................1212
11,8.................1220
12,0.................1232
12,2.................1256
12,4.................1255 ??? - strange but true
12,6.................1264
12,8.................1269 2 primers flat
13,0.................1284 all 3 primers flat
13,2.................1301 2 primers flat, 1 primer fell out!

I made only 3 rounds for 1 string because these bullets are expensive in Europe (0.27€ = 0,37$) and I dare to use only new brass (0,25€ = 0,35$) for such hot mule-like kicking loads.
Beside good military glasses for eye protection I was wearing also kevlar-leather gloves, not for just in case of KB, my G20 was hard-kicker this time, my wrist was thankful for that.
N105 powder is not much friendly to compress, more likely hollows become damaged a bit if I try to seat bullets some deeper.
But anyway I found N105 to be a great powder for pushing heavy 200 grainers. Maybe some day I will try with CCI 350 Magnum primers, starting 1 or 1.5 grains lower.
I noticed that rounds with AOL 1.275 or more stuck in the mag and decided to make 12,4gr rounds with AOL 1.272. This length makes no stucking in mag and at 1255 fps primers were still acceptable.

WARNING: Don't try such hot loads in Glock stock unsupported barrel and of course, don't even try to shoot them on hot summer day.

g20addicted
11-21-2010, 09:38
Last few weeks I was working on my 10mm hunting load or better said my SD load for/when stirring out an angry wounded wild boar from bushes.
This week new full supported IGB barrel has finally arrived and today I was testing my 200gr babies:

Equipment/conditions:
- Glock 20
- IGB custom barrel 4.6" with full supported chamber
- primers: CCI LP 300
- recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21
- powder: Vihtavuori N105
- bullets: Hornady XTP 200gr
- brass: Winchester (new)
- OAL: 1.260 to 1.275 (depending on load)
- temperature: 52 oF (11 oC)
- 1 string: 3 shots only
- distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
- I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after every third string (after 9 shots)


load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)
9,6.................1072
10,0.................1108
10,3.................1113
10,6.................1147
10,8.................1153
11,0.................1172
11,2.................1191
11,4.................1199
11,6.................1212
11,8.................1220
12,0.................1232
12,2.................1256
12,4.................1255 ??? - strange but true
12,6.................1264
12,8.................1269 2 primers flat
13,0.................1284 all 3 primers flat
13,2.................1301 2 primers flat, 1 primer fell out!

I made only 3 rounds for 1 string because these bullets are expensive in Europe (0.27€ = 0,37$) and I dare to use only new brass (0,25€ = 0,35$) for such hot mule-like kicking loads.
Beside good military glasses for eye protection I was wearing also kevlar-leather gloves, not for just in case of KB, my G20 was hard-kicker this time, my wrist was thankful for that.
N105 powder is not much friendly to compress, more likely hollows become damaged a bit if I try to seat bullets some deeper.
But anyway I found N105 to be a great powder for pushing heavy 200 grainers. Maybe some day I will try with CCI 350 Magnum primers, starting 1 or 1.5 grains lower.
I noticed that rounds with AOL 1.275 or more stuck in the mag and decided to make 12,4gr rounds with AOL 1.272. This length makes no stucking in mag and at 1255 fps primers were still acceptable.

WARNING: Don't try such hot loads in Glock stock unsupported barrel and of course, don't even try to shoot them on hot summer day.


What is the strenght (lbs) of the DPM spring you used? 19, 20, 22 lbs??

Have you tried the same loads with the Glock 20 stock 17lbs spring?

thanks!

robert91922
11-21-2010, 15:46
It is not a single spring on guide rod, it's a 3-spring kit combined with magnets inside. I can't find explicit data of it's strength, but here's some description and also Jeff Quinn's revision:
http://www.gunblast.com/DPM.htm
http://www.dpmsystems.com/en/home/

I decided to switch from factory recoil spring when I found my G20 to be uncontrolable with loads quite weaker than these 200-grainers. The difference was significant, really as advertised. Reduced recoil, faster sighting back on target and cases started flying "only" 5 yards away, not 15 like before.
I remember I had 180gr/1200 fps ammo that day and after that I had never put back stock recoil spring in my G20 neither I will.

Only switching to be done is changing main spring in DPM: silver for heavy bullets (180 - 200gr) and gold (yellow) for fast ammo (1400 fps) with light bullets (155gr). If I try to shoot 155gr/1400fps with silver main spring sometimes spent case is smashed or stucked at the edge of frame and destroyed. Well, maybe if I would shorten it a few it would be good for .40SW but IMO I will never buy that caliber.

Although meant in first place for hot ammo this DPM works OK also with weak factory Remington 180gr/1060fps FMJ's.

g20addicted
11-22-2010, 04:38
Only switching to be done is changing main spring in DPM: silver for heavy bullets (180 - 200gr) and gold (yellow) for fast ammo (1400 fps) with light bullets (155gr). If I try to shoot 155gr/1400fps with silver main spring sometimes spent case is smashed or stucked at the edge of frame and destroyed. Well, maybe if I would shorten it a few it would be good for .40SW but IMO I will never buy that caliber.

Although meant in first place for hot ammo this DPM works OK also with weak factory Remington 180gr/1060fps FMJ's.


In the case you are using a 180/200gr bullet running at more than 1350 fps (180gr) or 1200 fps (200gr), so a combination of "Heavy and Fast", like in your tests, you used the silver or yellow?

robert91922
11-22-2010, 10:47
Silver (stronger) spring for heavy bullets 180gr and up. The yellow one seems to be recommendable only for lighter 155 bullets because when I switched from silver to yellow 155gr worked fine, no damaged/stucked cases anymore.
I have also 165gr/1411fps loads w. Speer Gold Dot, those functioned fine with silver spring so far. This week I'm planing to go to my beloved place (guess where is it :supergrin:) and compare silver vs. yellow spring with 165gr/1411 loads.
I also plan to chrono 155gr Speer GDHP/13.0-13.6gr Rex Magnum loads and compare them with same bullet/VV 3N38 loads.

g20addicted
11-25-2010, 15:06
Question to all of you who have tried: :)

1) Using 180gr plated bullets and N105 powder, what is the "maximum safest" load? I mean, a load that, even if it may exceed the official limits shown in the VV tables, can still make you go on safely with one brass for 5-6 times?
I was thinking about 10,7 grains of N105 and 180gr... is it OK? I know that the limit is 9,9 in the latest tables, and it used to be 10,5 in the tables of some year ago... but since I saw that some of you went up to 12 grs, I thought that 10,7 would be fair enough safe.

2) Considering normal loads of N105 with a 180gr bullet (that means something around 9,5 - 10 grains of powder), can I still safely use the stock glock plastic spring? Or is it too weak and the slide will cycle super-fast (dangerously fast)? Considering that, theoretically, all the official VV data has been done with stock guns, it should be ok, but I'd like to hear from you.

Thanks!

robert91922
11-26-2010, 16:04
My data:

VV N105, Winchester JHP 180gr, Glock stock barrel

10,0 gr~~~~~~~~1128fps
10,2 gr~~~~~~~~1144fps
10,4 gr~~~~~~~~1189fps
10,6 gr~~~~~~~~1193fps
10,8 gr~~~~~~~~1213fps
11,0 gr~~~~~~~~1227fps

IMO you go safe with 10,7gr n105 and 180gr plated bullet, your brass will last some cycles and you will still feel like shooting 10mm auto, not some watered down factory stuff e.g. Remington UMC 180 FMJ / 1050 fps (my chrono data).
Just make it sure your barrel is clean when starting and DON'T mess with casted bullets on the same day at the range. When I shoot casted bullets I clean my IGB barrel after every 2 or 3 mags w. softer brass brush and then w. stock plastic brush (the one you get with new Glock)

I don't recommend stock spring for these loads, go buy something little stronger w. steel rod. Your gun will be thankful and your wrist too. Not to mention controllability and accuracy.

g20addicted
11-28-2010, 15:40
Thank you again!

Is there any special consideration/attention to be done if I want to use CCI350 primers? Do I need to lower the powder charge?

thanks!

robert91922
11-29-2010, 13:47
Thank you again!

Is there any special consideration/attention to be done if I want to use CCI350 primers? Do I need to lower the powder charge?

thanks!
I don't have any experience with magnum primers yet, but I read many times here on GT that you should start 10% lower than minimum and go up very slowly & observe very carefully every case spent for any sign of overpressure.
I am planing to try CCI 350 / 180 & 200gr bullets considering these warnings. The last time I was chronoing various bullets & N105/CCI300 I found quite much unburnt powder on the ground around chrono. Looked like some tiny yellow flakes. Maybe w. Magnum primers I could load less powder for same speed and all of it will burn inside the barrel.

robert91922
12-12-2010, 14:10
Equipment/conditions:
- Glock 20
- IGB custom barrel 4.6" with full supported chamber
- primers: CCI 350 LP Magnum
- recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21
- firing pin spring changed from standard to "Red - 28 Newton"
http://www.glock.com/english/options...gpinspring.htm (http://www.glock.com/english/options_firingpinspring.htm)
- powder: Vihtavuori N105
- bullets: Winchester JHP 180gr
- brass: Starline (new)
- OAL: 1.268
- temperature: 25 oF (-4 oC)
- 1 string: 3 shots only
- distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
- I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after every third string (after 9 shots)

load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)

11,4.................1284
11,7.................1302
12,0.................1326
12,2.................1328
12,4.................1340
12,6.................1342 primers flattened a bit

I found out at my previous tests w. CCI 300 primers that quite much of N105 remains unburnt, especially at lower winter temperatures, so tried with magnum primers, starting a bit lower. No overpressure signs until 12,6gr when primers looked flattened. My goal was also lower volume of powder to avoid much compression, so working load will be 12,0 grains. This time some unburnt powder found on chrono and on blanket below, but much less than last time with CCI 300 LP primers.
IMO magnum primers are useful at low winter temperatures in combination with slow burning powder like N105.

Warning: Do not try such loads with unsupported barrel or at higher spring/summer temperatures. I always use kevlar gloves and best eye protection glasses as well - find out what military use.

robert91922
12-12-2010, 14:27
- Glock 20
- IGB custom barrel 4.6" w. full supported chamber
- primers: CCI 350 LP Magnum
- recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21
- firing pin spring changed from standard to "Red - 28 Newton"
http://www.glock.com/english/options...gpinspring.htm (http://www.glock.com/english/options_firingpinspring.htm)
- powder: Vihtavuori N105
- bullets: HORNADY XTP 200gr
- brass: Starline (new)
- OAL: 1.272
- temperature: 25 oF (-4 oC)
- 1 string: 3 shots only
- distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
- I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after every second string (after 6 shots)

load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)

11,0.................1215
11,3.................1227
11,7.................1261
12,0.................1276 primers flattened a bit
12,2.................1283 primers flattened
12,4.................1294 primers flattened

I found out at my previous tests that quite much of N105 remains unburnt, especialy at lower winter temperatures, so tried with magnum primers, starting a bit lower. Overpressure signs started at 12,0gr - primers flattened a bit. My goal was also lower volume of powder to avoid much compression and bullet hollow squeezing, so working load will be 11,7 or 11,8 grains.

Warning: Do not try such loads with unsupported barrel or at higher spring/summer temperatures. I always use kevlar gloves and best eye protection glasses as well - find out what military use. I use Revision Sawfly.

robert91922
12-30-2010, 15:00
- Glock 20
- IGB custom barrel 4.6" w. full supported chamber
- primers: CCI 300 Large Pistol
- recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21 (yellow main spring)
- firing pin spring changed from standard to "Red - 28 Newton"
http://www.glock.com/english/options...gpinspring.htm (http://www.glock.com/english/options_firingpinspring.htm)
- powder: Vihtavuori N350
- bullets: Speer GDHP 155gr
- brass: Starline (new)
- OAL: 1.262
- temperature: 25 oF (-4 oC)
- 1 string: 3 shots only
- distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
- I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after fourth string (after 12 shots)

load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)

11.0.................1417
11.2.................1434
11.4.................1455
11.6.................1465
11.8.................1493 primers flattened
12.0.................1512 primers very flattened, 1 primer fell out

IMO 11.2 load would be max if I'm gonna make SD loads with these components for winter carry. For hot summer days should drop down to 10.4 (or lower) or use slower powder e.g. 3N38.

whenmonkeysfly
12-30-2010, 18:17
- Glock 20
- IGB custom barrel 4.6" w. full supported chamber
- primers: CCI 300 Large Pistol
- recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21 (yellow main spring)
- firing pin spring changed from standard to "Red - 28 Newton"
http://www.glock.com/english/options...gpinspring.htm (http://www.glock.com/english/options_firingpinspring.htm)
- powder: Vihtavuori N350
- bullets: Speer GDHP 155gr
- brass: Starline (new)
- OAL: 1.262
- temperature: 25 oF (-4 oC)
- 1 string: 3 shots only
- distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
- I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after fourth string (after 12 shots)

load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)

11.0.................1417
11.2.................1434
11.4.................1455
11.6.................1465
11.8.................1493 primers flattened
12.0.................1512 primers very flattened, 1 primer fell out

IMO 11.2 load would be max if I'm gonna make SD loads with these components for winter carry. For hot summer days should drop down to 10.4 (or lower) or use slower powder e.g. 3N38.


Thanks for the data Robert! I've got a boatload of Vihtavuori N350 and a few thousand Rainer 165 grain TC bullets that I could push to ~1200-1250fps. I use both blue and red flavors of Newton Springs in a number of my Glocks. Really good for those hard CCI-350's.

robert91922
01-22-2011, 17:19
Well, 165gr/1250fps really aren't some nuclear loads but be careful anyway, cause N350 is pretty fast. Don't try magnum primers with it.
I found N350 to be great for loading hot 9mm SD rounds 115gr/1330fps and 124gr/1270fps.

2 weeks ago I combined 165gr Gold Dots w. 3N38 and CCI 350 LP Magnum primers, IMO this is worth to write about:

load (grains) average (fps)
12,0..............1344
12,3..............1355
12,6..............1361
12,8..............1385
13,0..............1426
13,2..............1449
13,4..............1462
13,6..............1478
13,8..............1486 primers not so great anymore
14,0..............1503 primers flattened

Temperature: -4C (25F), IGB full supported 4.6" barrel.

Warning: you already know what :embarassed:

P.S.: I have read it http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179485 again and maybe I should really stop to push my luck w. hot 10mm loads. I will buy Ken Waters "Pet Loads" on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/Pet-Loads-Book-1172-Pg-Great-reloading-info-Ken-Waters-/370473559935?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5641f1e77f but here in Europe you can't buy 10mm high performance factory ammo so how can I compare head expansion w. my loads? :dunno: .... any idea? To buy a motorcycle helmet maybe?

pistolpete10mm
03-01-2011, 08:39
First post here. Roberts published data sure is interesting to read.

I own a G20 just for a little over a month now and have used N340 and N105. The N340 feels a bit weak and is IMO not the powder for a true 10mm.

So I've done most of my shooting with N105, the magnum powder, and according to the Vihta manual I should get some good velocities, but reading the data on this forum the velocities Vihta claims are quite a bit exaggerated (maybe they do their chrono testing on the moon?).

Now I use a 180 grain Berry double struck plated bullet with 9,3 grains of N105. Should give me about 1220 fps, but the real world data shows that I don't even get that kind of velocity with the max load of the old Vihta manual listed as 10,5 grains of N105.

Robert, if you're reading this (and you still got all your fingers to type :supergrin: ), do you know what the 9,3 grain N105 load will give in combination with a 180 grain bullet? I like this load as it is easy on my Starline cases and use my Glock in stock configuration. But obviously I also want some true 10mm velocities (no nuclear loads, just the real 10mm stuff) without ruining my cases after one or two loads. It seems that 10,5 grain of N105 may be the sollution for me: about 1200 fps in the real world and pressure should still be ok for a stock Glock, especially since N105 is a slow burning powder.

robert91922
03-05-2011, 16:09
Yes, all 10 still attached to my palm :rofl: beside that I always wear kevlar or spectra gloves when shooting 10mm, so as long as I do that, Murphy protects me against :upeyes: and of course, I type with 2 fingers only :embarassed:
You can find my post 1 page back in this thread. N105: 10 -11gr , Winchester JHP 180gr, CCI 300 LP, Glock 20 stock barrel. I reached 1200 fps at approx. 10.7gr at 10C (50F).
Presuming that jacketed bullet has some more friction than softer plated I can say you will touch 1200fps/180gr at approx. 10.4gr .
Anyway, start at 9.4 and rise with 0.2 gr steps and observe brass after every shot, check for smiley and extreme primer flattening. If it shows up STOP! and go at least 1 step down. That should be max for YOUR gun and YOUR barrel at THIS temperature and with CLEAN barrel.
Anyway, I strongly recommend to change stock recoil spring, get something stronger e.g. DPM 3-spring system. I am very happy with DPM.
Few months ago I changed barrel as well and I'm more than happy with IGB barrel with full supported chamber. Not only full case support, it's ballistics is better (less friction) and classic rifling works fine with soft plated bullets or hard cast as well. Anyway I always shoot hard cast b. at last, never switch back to plated or FMJ that day on the range.
P.S.: Like yours, mine first 10mm rounds were Remington 180gr UMC and I overpaid them as you did, but this is Europe :crying: Now I reload my own pet rounds and I'm trying to get rid of rest UMC's for some decent price but seems that 10mm handguns are very very rare in Slovenia. In Austria you can buy 10mm ammo from Prvi partizan, Serbia - PPU stamp. Don't buy it! It's worthless, it's a :yawn: weak .40SW in 10mm package, it's a shame for factory with not so bad reputation in other calibers.

robert91922
03-08-2011, 14:09
Equipment/conditions:
- Glock 20
- IGB custom barrel 4.6" with full supported chamber
- primers: CCI 350 LP Magnum
- recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21
- firing pin spring "Red - 28 Newton"
- powder: Vihtavuori N105
- bullets: Hornady FMJ 200gr
- brass: Starline (new)
- OAL: 1.266
- temperature: 30 F (-1 C)
- 1 string: 4 shots
- distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
- I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after third string (after 12 shots)

load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)

11,0.................1216
11,2.................1218
11,4.................1225
11,6.................1242
11,8.................1264
12,0.................1289 primers flattened a bit

IMO the last load w. 12,0gr is safe in this configuration if barrel is clean and temp. is low, speaking of course for MY aftermarket IGB barrel with full supported chamber and considering that after approx. 500 rounds it has less friction or better said, it's a bit broken in.
My woods carry load against feral boar carrying light body armour will be 11,8gr :embarassed:

Warning: Do not try such loads with unsupported barrel or at higher spring/summer temperatures.

_The_Shadow
03-08-2011, 17:24
Great report Robert! Thanks!

pistolpete10mm
03-09-2011, 08:11
Thanks for the info Robert.

I'm going to keep my G20 completely stock (with the exeption of the 3,5 lbs connector I put in it) as I'm not going to shoot the really hot loads. Mostly 180 grain bullets at +/- 1100 fps (which falls between the .40S&W and the true 10mm loads) and some real 10mm loads once in a while: 170 grain TMJ from Fiocchi at 1250 - 1300 fps. Problem is that the bullet selection in .40 FMJ is quite poor here in Belgium and Holland. The only one I found is the Fiocchi 170 grain TMJ. Hollow points are not allowed in my country so most .40 jacketed bullets are out of the picture.

I thought of buying an IGB barrel so I can shoot lead (which is a lot cheaper), but the cost of the barrel is significant (prices are not at all like in the US, don't know how it is in Slovenia) and here in Belgium you need a seperate license just for the barrel, which costs you an extra 90.

But if I can shoot some 170 grain bullets at 1250 - 1300 fps I'm happy. For some serieus hot loads I use my Super Redhawk: 300 grain bullets at 1300 fps.

robert91922
03-09-2011, 13:02
I get bullets mostly from Germany, no problem to send them via post within European Union. Look at eGun.de, there are some retailers with good offer of different 10mm bullets. The last shipments of brass and bullets were from www.grauwolf.net (http://www.grauwolf.net) (Germany) and www.shooting-supplies.eu (http://www.shooting-supplies.eu/) (Luxemburg) both are recommended sellers IMO.
A retailer Artek from Slovenia where I buy bullets too says he buys mostly from:
http://www.helmuthofmann.de/wiederladen.php?typ=geschosse

An IGB full supported barrel is not only because of full power loads, it significantly saves your brass as well. I paid for mine 240€ plus 30€ for extra barrel license, but I don't regret a single cent for it - highly recommended.
Anyway, if you are good with .44 magnum Redhawk (I'm not) you don't have to be afraid of boars or bears in woods.
1€ = 1.37$ at this moment (info for our US 10mm friends)

pistolpete10mm
03-14-2011, 14:49
Thanks for the info Robert. A friend of mine has planned to drive to Luxembourg in a few weeks and will bring me 1000 bullets of Fiocchi TMJ 170 grains, those will do well with the 1250 up to 1300 fps loads I plan to shoot on occasion.

However, my target load for now is the 180 grain Berry plated bullet with 9,5 grains of Vihtavuori N105. 9,7 grains works fine also, but at 10 grains accuracy starts to fade. I have reloaded my Starline cases for the 10th time now and they are all looking good. Of course, 9,5 grains of VV N105 is more like a .40S&W +P load. I don't know the exact velocity, but cases fly about 8 feet, so it is basically an "in between" load.

Haven't seen any bears here in the Belgian woods, guess someone with a 10mm beat me to it :supergrin:

robert91922
03-14-2011, 15:13
Thanks for the info Robert. A friend of mine has planned to drive to Luxembourg in a few weeks and will bring me 1000 bullets of Fiocchi TMJ 170 grains, those will do well with the 1250 up to 1300 fps loads I plan to shoot on occasion.

However, my target load for now is the 180 grain Berry plated bullet with 9,5 grains of Vihtavuori N105. 9,7 grains works fine also, but at 10 grains accuracy starts to fade. I have reloaded my Starline cases for the 10th time now and they are all looking good. Of course, 9,5 grains of VV N105 is more like a .40S&W +P load. I don't know the exact velocity, but cases fly about 8 feet, so it is basically an "in between" load.

Haven't seen any bears here in the Belgian woods, guess someone with a 10mm beat me to it :supergrin:
With 10gr N105 and Winchester JHP 180gr I reached 1128fps in G20 stock barrel. Those plated Berry's bullets have probably a bit less friction so I guess you are getting approx. 50fps more. With good FMJ 170gr bullets you should be accurate even at 1300 fps.
If you plan to shoot real power 10mm loads I recommend the same 3-spring recoil system as mine is: DPM. Recoil will be significantly more controllable and you will get better accuracy as well.
Anyway, at 170gr/1300fps your brass will suffer in G20 stock barrel, smileys and bulging are about to appear. Be careful and don't reuse such tortured brass again. Brass is still cheaper than fingers :supergrin:

pistolpete10mm
03-15-2011, 03:41
Those 170 grain FMJ bullets at 1300 fps will be made with Accurate n9 powder. Max load is 15 grains for the 170 grain bullet and I plan to work up from 10% less like the manual indicates, so starting at 13,5 grains.

I already tried AA9 powder with my 180 grain plated bullets and it gives acceptable performance with the hotter loads (all rounds in the black of a standard pistol target), but for really good accuracy I need those FMJ bullets. Max load with AA9 and a 180 grain bullet is 13,5 grains and at 13 grains I got no pressure signs, cases did fly about 15 feet though. I don't expect pressure signs with AA9 as this is a very slow burning powder. Maybe if you hotrod it with above max loads, but when you stay within the data given in the manual you should not expect Glock smilies or bulged cases with a stock G20 as far as I see it.

Thanks for the tip of the aftermarket recoil rod, but for now I'm sticking with the stock one. It works well, and I will mostly shoot 180 grain plated bullets at +/- 1100 fps and 170 grain FMJ at +/- 1250 fps.

pistolpete10mm
04-04-2011, 07:18
I have been playing around with my G20 a lot lately and am quite pleased with my results with the VV N105 powder. Only downside on this powder is that the velocities Vihta claims to get in their manual are way over exaggerated.

Vihtavuori doesn't show any data for the 170 grain Fiocchi TMJ bullets I bought, so I started at their max load for a 180 grain bullet (knowing a 10mm max load from their manual is not even close to max) and worked my way up. The 170 grain bullet with 10,5 grain of N105 was my starting load and this one didn't felt too hot. So I moved to 11,0 grain of N105 and this load seems to be a good one. Cases fly pretty far with my stock 17lbs recoil spring (easily up to 15 ft), but don't show any signs of overpressure. Accurcay is very good too, at 50 meters (55 yards) I shot 84/100 yesterday on a standard olympic pistol target, I've seen guys doing a lot worse with a rifle at this distance :supergrin: I'm guessing this load will do about 1250 fps, but I could be off by 50 fps as I have no chrono and none of my shooting buddies have one either. COAL is 1,255 and I use a Magtech LP primer in my Starline cases.

I also bought the last batch of Sierra 190 FPJ Tournament Master bullets my gunshop had in stock. I got to buy them at a good price I think: 16,50 for 100 bullets, bought all 3000 of them :cool: Sierra stopped making those 190 grain bullets in 2009 and since a good quality FMJ .40 bullet in Belgium is a hard thing to find I decided to buy all of them, sort of like an investment for the future :supergrin: Sierra now only makes hollow point bullets in .40 and in Belgium we cannot buy these in handgun ammo (one of the very few things we are not allowed to buy).

I use these 190 grain Sierra bullets with 10 grain of N105 and this feels like a true 10mm load. I cannot chrono these loads, but I guess I get something around 1150 fps. These are very solid bullets, well construced, with good accuracy. If I were living in a bear-populated region I would use these bullets for protection without a doubt as penetration will be superb.

robert91922
04-29-2011, 02:41
... I'm guessing this load will do about 1250 fps, but I could be off by 50 fps as I have no chrono and none of my shooting buddies have one either. ...

I use these 190 grain Sierra bullets with 10 grain of N105 and this feels like a true 10mm load. I cannot chrono these loads, but I guess I get something around 1150 fps. .....

Well, I recommend to stop guessing about your loads - here's a good chrono at affordable price, seller would send within EU, no problem:
http://www.grauwolf.net/spezielles/comp-electonic-prochrono-digital-geschwindigkeitsmesser.html
I highly recommend this seller, I have already bought 10mm bullets and brass from him and within 2 weeks he will get 10mm Starline brass again.
It's very good to have chrono, especially if you are 10mm loader.
At least you know if your loads are still too weak for a bear :supergrin: or have already reached desired velocity :wow:

pistolpete10mm
05-02-2011, 03:34
Thanks for the link. You're right, I really should buy a chrono, especially since I also reload .44 mag, .45 ACP and .45/70.

My birthday is next month, and since I got enough ammo for now I may end up buying a chrono.

old wanderer
07-16-2011, 11:35
Robert,

I note in your posting of 10mm VV105 load you were at -1C to -4C. I am loading some 180 Gr XTP bullets today with VV105 and some Ramshot True Blue.

I would be very interested in hearing the crono numbers at 20c vs 0c. I went out a rummaged through some old boxes and found some 350 primers. (Probably from my 44Mag 20 years ago.).

I have a Ohler 43 Cronograph with a printer, So should be easy to just go out and set it up and put some rounds through it, (Hopefully without the dreaded squeeze the little finger causing a barrel dip, and back to the shop, (again)). Yes it has happened to me. Hate it when I do that. :crying:

I have a G20 with a 5" LW barrel, and a Kimber 10MM. (Plus a G29 with external ports). I also have the 5" slide for the G20 but don't like it too much.

I usually shoot the DT 135 Gr Nossler @ 1600 fps for SD load, but want to try and load some other hot loads just to practice and not spend $1.00/shot.

robert91922
07-17-2011, 08:40
Vihtavuori N105 is relatively slow burning in class of handgun powders but I wouldn't use LP Magnum primers with it in summer. If you will anyway, drop down starting load for at least 10% and carefully observe for overpressure signs.

And it burns quite better in summer, I measured 50 - 80 fps higher speeds (depending on load and bullet weight) on warm days although ammo wasn't exposed to direct sunlight or left in car for hours. Too bad I didn't write down all those data.

Stay safe and take care. And don't forget to use good ballistic glasses and kevlar/spectra gloves. It's much easier &cheaper to buy a new gun than new fingers.
I am planning to chrono some of my 10mm pet loads this summer just to compare with winter numbers, will post it here.

robert91922
07-17-2011, 12:46
I found only this data on my ammo box:

Winchester 180gr JHP
VV N105 12,2gr
CCI 300 LP

1286 fps 2010/Oct 12 @ 12C / 54F (stock barrel)

1303 fps 2011/Jun ? @ 25C / 77F (stock barrel)
1331 fps 2011/Jun ? @ 25C / 77F (custom IGB barrel)

so if I had shot both times with the same barrel (it was stock b. I did so) it would be approx. 20 fps difference, but it's also only 13C /23F difference in temperature.

It's my own ammo from the same batch.
On that day (2010/Oct 12 ) I also compared speed of Winchester JHP and Hornady XTP bullets, both 180gr:

Load: N105 12,4gr w. CCI 300
Winchester JHP: 1291 fps
Hornady XTP: 1282 fps

Load: N105 12,6gr w. CCI 300
Winchester JHP: 1300 fps
Hornady XTP: 1297 fps

each is the average of 3 rounds from my Glock 20, stock barrel.

I hope it helps somehow.

old wanderer
07-17-2011, 23:22
Thanks Robert for the quick reply.

I have loaded 30 rounds with CCI 350 primers..

11.5 Gr VV 105

11.7 Gr VV 105

12.0 Gr VV 105

All with XTP 180 Gr bullets.

(I have 50 rounds already primed with CCI 300 primers, and sounds like I should duplicate the above loading in that brass as well, maybe move above 12.0 Gr)

For some reason with these dies, I am having some problem in controlling COL. I started at 1.257 but some are at as much as 1.270? I am thinking about re-positioning the seating/crimp die to the press bottoms out, (The carbide RCBS die set is for 40sw and 10mm. )

Or I do have a Lee crimp die, and just back it out so I get an exact COL and crimp it.

I hope to get to the range soon, and chronograph these loads. I want to find a load I like, then I have 500 rounds of new brass I can load. Already have plenty of VV105 powder, and do want to try some True Blue powder, but I might get some 135 Gr Nossler bullets for that project.

My favorite carry load is DT 135 Gr Nosslers at 1600 FPS!

robert91922
07-18-2011, 07:45
I'm sure you would exceed 1300fps mark with 5" LW barrel / 12gr N105 / magnum primers / warm summer day, but I'm not sure it's still safe. Be sure your barrel is shiny clean before you start to chrono each of this 10 round batch. And maybe you should rise with max 0.2gr steps, not 0.3gr, but it's your gun and the rest behind it as well.

One of CCI350's advantage over CCI300's is less powder and less compression so the hollow point remains ok. Anyway, 12gr N105 and 180gr XTP makes some powder compression at 1.260 OAL but N105 takes it good.

Please let us know about results as soon as you can.

robert91922
07-28-2011, 08:16
Here's chrono report for 180gr XTP's / Vihtavuori 3N38 / CCI 300 LP / Glock 20 / IGB 4.6 barrel w. full supported chamber. Temp. was 21C ( 70F).

load (grains) average (fps)
11.0..............1214
11.2..............1223
11.4..............1257
11.6..............1264
11.8..............1272
12.0..............1280

Accuracy good (see target at 27 yrds bellow). Primers still OK, not flattened at all. Case Head Expansion at max. 0.431 but due to tight and full supported chamber of IGB barrel this could not be relevant. I think 3N38/180gr combination has still some way to go so a day after loaded another batch of 12.2 to 12.6 gr.
Data for 12.2 – 12.6 loads are gonna follow within few days after next trip to the range.

Similar batch with Rex Magnum powder was done as well, it could be seen in Rex Powders sticky thread.

And here are some that day's photos:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m621/robert91922/3N38vsRexMagnum_180gr_260711/ShootersView1.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m621/robert91922/3N38vsRexMagnum_180gr_260711/Notes_done_1.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m621/robert91922/3N38vsRexMagnum_180gr_260711/Target25m_3N38_11-12gr_180XTP.jpg


After chrono had some more fun, this is my training stage "Wild Boar Pack" :supergrin:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m621/robert91922/3N38vsRexMagnum_180gr_260711/WildBoarStage1.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m621/robert91922/3N38vsRexMagnum_180gr_260711/WildBoarStage2.jpg

EDIT: previously I mixed up data of Rex Magnum and 3N38 powder. Now I have corrected 3N38 numbers :embarassed: In fact, 3N38 gave a bit less than Rex Magnum at the same weight load. See my today's post at Rex powders sticky.
I will probably reach 1300 mark with next batch 12.2 - 12.6 of 3N38....ammo was loaded yesterday, maybe this weekend will find time to go to the range.

whenmonkeysfly
07-28-2011, 08:36
Robert, thanks for the report/data! I like your "Wild Boar Pack" training stage!

robert91922
08-18-2011, 14:48
Here's chrono report for 180gr XTP's / Vihtavuori 3N38 / CCI 300 LP / Glock 20 / IGB 4.6 barrel w. full supported chamber. Temp. was 21C ( 70F).

load (grains) average (fps)
11.0..............1214
11.2..............1223
11.4..............1257
11.6..............1264
11.8..............1272
12.0..............1280

Accuracy good (see target at 27 yrds bellow). Primers still OK, not flattened at all. Case Head Expansion at max. 0.431 but due to tight and full supported chamber of IGB barrel this could not be relevant. I think 3N38/180gr combination has still some way to go so a day after loaded another batch of 12.2 to 12.6 gr.
Data for 12.2 – 12.6 loads are gonna follow within few days after next trip to the range.

Similar batch with Rex Magnum powder was done as well, it could be seen in Rex Powders sticky thread.

And here are some that day's photos:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m621/robert91922/3N38vsRexMagnum_180gr_260711/ShootersView1.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m621/robert91922/3N38vsRexMagnum_180gr_260711/Notes_done_1.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m621/robert91922/3N38vsRexMagnum_180gr_260711/Target25m_3N38_11-12gr_180XTP.jpg


After chrono had some more fun, this is my training stage "Wild Boar Pack" :supergrin:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m621/robert91922/3N38vsRexMagnum_180gr_260711/WildBoarStage1.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m621/robert91922/3N38vsRexMagnum_180gr_260711/WildBoarStage2.jpg

EDIT: previously I mixed up data of Rex Magnum and 3N38 powder. Now I have corrected 3N38 numbers :embarassed: In fact, 3N38 gave a bit less than Rex Magnum at the same weight load. See my today's post at Rex powders sticky.
I will probably reach 1300 mark with next batch 12.2 - 12.6 of 3N38....ammo was loaded yesterday, maybe this weekend will find time to go to the range.
It really took a while but I was on my vacation. I was planning to put data on GT in the meantime but forgot data at home :embarassed:

However, here are data for 3 steps up w. 3N38:
12.2...................1338 ES 37.57 SD 16.67
12.4...................1353 ES 6.51 SD 3.60
12.6...................1358 ES 6.63 SD 3.00

yes, I noticed a great gap between 12.0 and 12.2 but....:dunno:

glock20c10mm
08-18-2011, 21:49
It really took a while but I was on my vacation. I was planning to put data on GT in the meantime but forgot data at home :embarassed:

However, here are data for 3 steps up w. 3N38:
12.2...................1338 ES 37.57 SD 16.67
12.4...................1353 ES 6.51 SD 3.60
12.6...................1358 ES 6.63 SD 3.00

yes, I noticed a great gap between 12.0 and 12.2 but....:dunno:
Very good velocities. 1.260"?

robert91922
08-18-2011, 22:28
Very good velocities. 1.260"?

1.266
Had to make them a bit longer than usual due to small space left for bullet.

robert91922
01-24-2012, 03:27
Vihtavuori 3N38
primers: CCI 300 LP, OAL 1.260 - 1.264
brass: virgin new Starline
bullets 155gr Speer GD and Hornady XTP

grains ~fps (average)

~~~~~GD~~XTP
12,4 ~1297 ~1310

12,7 ~1361 ~1350

13,0 ~1370 ~1367

13,3 ~1404 ~1409

13,5 ~1436 ~1443

13,7 ~1458 ~1457

13,9 ~1464 ~1464

14,1 ~1471 ~1485

14,3 ~1501 ~1496


Conditions and equipment:

- Glock 20 w. IGB full supported barrel 4.6" and DPM 3-spring system
- temp. 8C (46F)
- each string 3 shots only
- primers flattened last 4 strings, but nothing horrible yet :embarassed:

All loads very accurate, although at 1400fps started to be very snappy.

Warning: don't copycat these loads but if you do, buy the same barrel and use the best protection glasses and gloves. Anyway, most of these loads are over book max so not recommended.

_The_Shadow
01-24-2012, 09:50
That's getting some good zip on those 155gr GD's...
Thanks for the great data Robert!

robert91922
01-26-2012, 06:13
You're welcome.
I am planning to compare these two 155gr/1500fps rounds in "5 waterbuckets test" this summer. It took several months to collect enough buckets, but then cold winter days came...I wouldn't test it before summer cause I expect some shower for shooter and cameraman as well :embarassed:

robert91922
04-19-2012, 00:09
After 2 batches w. N105/212gr hardcast (which were not so bad anyway) http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407651
... I decided to try a bit faster Vihtavuori 3N38. I found this powder to be more than ideal for 212gr hardcast bullets made by Target, Italy.
Here's ballistic data and equipment used:
- Glock 20 w. IGB 4.6" barrel, full supported
- DPM 3-spring system (stronger "silver" main spring)
- powder: Vihtavuori 3N38
- primers: CCI 300 Large Pistol
- brass: Starline, shot once in IGB barrel
- bullets: Target 212gr hardcast (HB/BHN 23)
http://www.targetbullets.it/hard-cas...ga_709223.html (http://www.targetbullets.it/hard-cast-bullets-lega_709223.html)
- temp: 11C (52F)

load: 10.0gr COAL 1.261
1168
1161
1148
1160
1164
av. 1160 es 20.62 sd 7.48

load: 10.3gr COAL 1.263
1182
1171
1180
1186
1180
av. 1180 es 14.94 sd 5.47

load: 10.6gr COAL 1.263
1220
1203
1198
1196
1207
av. 1205 es 24.02 sd 9.48

load: 10.8gr COAL 1.267
1223
1201
1218
1216
1209
av. 1213 es 22.59 sd 8.54

load: 11.0gr COAL 1.270
1232
1225
1213
1222
1211
av. 1220 es 20.71 sd 8.66

load: 11.2gr COAL 1.271
1224
1229
1234
1241
1228
av. 1231 es 16.01 sd 6.48

load: 11.4gr COAL 1.273
1250
1246
1250
1232
1235
av. 1243 es 18.21 sd 8.54

All loads were very precise, no keyholing. If shooter (me) did his part of job a hole was in 8 - 10 points range at distance 25m (27 yards).
The only thing I dislike about these bullets is cleaning barrel aftermath. No significant lead fouling though, but spent a lot of time to clean it comparing to FMJ or JHP bullets.

P.S.:Beside my usual protecting equipment I was using LE riot helmet w. face shield as well. All went good, even primers flattened only to usual acceptable limits.

whenmonkeysfly
04-19-2012, 07:04
Thanks Robert! That is a big, fast 10mm!

Jitterbug
04-19-2012, 07:18
Nice work Robert! I may need to pick up a pound of that.

I visited the Vihtavuori website and couldn't find data for a 200 grain and Vihtavuori 3N38, where are you finding your data?

robert91922
04-19-2012, 10:38
Nice work Robert! I may need to pick up a pound of that.

I visited the Vihtavuori website and couldn't find data for a 200 grain and Vihtavuori 3N38, where are you finding your data?
Mostly here on GT and develop myself as well. So far I used 3N38 for lighter 10mm jacketed bullets, but hardcast bullets have less friction so after a bit too slow N105 I decided to give a try w. 3N38.
I guesstimated myself where to start from.
For the first time I got enhanced protection for loads testing - police riot helmet w. plastic shield covering a whole face. Better safe than sorry.

whenmonkeysfly
04-19-2012, 12:10
Better safe than sorry.

Absolutey! I have/will wear Kevlar gloves when testing hotter loads. Thanks for sharing the data.

-Jay

Jitterbug
04-20-2012, 05:59
Thanks Robert!

_The_Shadow
04-21-2012, 17:28
Robert, thanks for another fine report!:wavey:

SDGlock23
05-04-2012, 19:57
Good to see some 3n38 info coming in. I haven't used it in the G20 yet but it does a stellar job with the 155 and 165gr .40's (only ones I've tested), so I suspect it should do great with 10mm too.

robert91922
07-15-2012, 01:55
Here's a link to my other thread, perhaps should be posted here in Vihtavuori powder data sticky. Anyway, to not be lost in many other threads, here you are:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1432448

robert91922
07-29-2012, 16:04
Nice work Robert! I may need to pick up a pound of that.

I visited the Vihtavuori website and couldn't find data for a 200 grain and Vihtavuori 3N38, where are you finding your data?

I made my own last week :supergrin:

Here's ballistic data and equipment used:
- Glock 20 w. IGB 4.6" barrel, full supported
- DPM 3-spring system (weaker "yellow" main spring)
- powder: Vihtavuori 3N38
- primers: CCI 300 Large Pistol
- brass: Starline & Winchester, shot once in IGB barrel
- bullets: Hornady FMJ 200 gr
- temp: 27C (81F)

load: 10.0gr COAL 1.269
1120, 1049, 1109, 1108, 1122, 1121
av. 1105

load: 10.6gr COAL 1.269
1189, 1179, 1169, 1168, 1156, 1169
av. 1168

load: 10.9gr COAL 1.269
1190, 1192, 1193, 1189, 1206, 1196, 1190
av. 1194

load: 11.2gr COAL 1.269
1218, 1210, 1206, 1207, 1209, 1194, 1213
av. 1208

load: 11.4gr COAL 1.270
1243, 1241, 1231, 1240, 1240, 1243, 1242
av. 1240 es 12.53 sd 4.12

load: 11.6gr COAL 1.270
1246, 1241, 1246, 1241, 1235, 1242, 1228
av. 1240 es 17.12 sd 6.40

load: 11.8gr COAL 1.270
1262, 1264, 1248, 1266, 1255, 1256
av. 1259 es 17.64 sd 6.16

load: 12.0gr COAL 1.270
1271, 1272, 1266, 1265, 1258, 1255
av. 1265 es 16.36 sd 6.70


Mags were reinforced w. Arredondo springs, so no more slide overriding over the next round. Worked flawlessly.
warning: Don't try this at home! Go to the range :cool:

RDub01
11-24-2012, 22:17
Hi

Shot some 180gr Speer TMJ's through a G20-SF with 3N38 powder.


Glock 20SF with factory barrel and spring
Rounds were seated to 1.26” COL
Circles are 5” at 25 yards
Shooting was done off of a Caldwell Pistol Rest
Velocities taken with an Oehler Mod 33 chronograph. Skyscreens centered 8’ from muzzle.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/10MM/180gr3N38.jpg



Data on targets;

Average velocity
Velocity spread
Standard deviation
temperature

Case head expansion;
11.3grs is about max in this gun, maybe a bit less in warmerweather.
I had an erroneous chrono reading on the 11.3gr string thatI didn’t catch, which screwed up the average, but I recall seeing velocities inthe low 1200’s
10.4grs minimal expansion
10.7grs .4335,.4335, .4335, .4330, .4336
11.0grs .4339, .4335, .4336, .4337, .4336
11.3grs .4340,.4338, .4339, .4340, .4342
11.6grs .4339,.4346, .SMILEY, .4345, .4339

I don't know why the groups were so far left and high..

RDub01
11-24-2012, 22:30
Hi
Shot some 180gr SpeerTMJ's through a G20-SF with N-105 powder.
Glock 20SF with factory barrel and spring
Rounds were seated to 1.26 COL
Circles are 5 at 25 yards
Shooting was done off of a Caldwell Pistol Rest
Velocities taken with an Oehler Mod 33 chronograph. Skyscreens centered 8 from muzzle.


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/10MM/180grN-105.jpg



11.1grs was somewhat compressed with the Speer 180 TMJ and12.0grs was even more so. N-105 is an extruded powder and it doesnt meter as well as some others.
11.1grs produced a not so great group.. It would seem N-105 doesn't like to be loaded down..
11.7grs is as far as I want to go here with this gun.. 12.0grs gave head expansion larger than I want to go.
Both 3N38 and N-105 maxed out at about 1200 fps in the factory barrel.

11.1grs .4334,.4334, .4332, .4340, .4330
11.4grs .4336,.4337, .4339, .4332, .4335
11.7grs .4336,.4344, .4340, .4336, .4341
12.0grs .4342,.4346, .4344, .4345, .4336

Not sure why the groups were so far left and high..

SDGlock23
06-30-2013, 13:05
Here is some fresh VV 3N38 data for you guys. I want some more of it but I don't ever see it locally. I think I had to order what 3N38 I do have over the internet.

Anyways, the gun is my new G20 Gen4 10mm bone stock. About 70 degrees outside at roughly 1000 ft elevation. Low humidity (thank goodness).

1x Midway (Starline?) brass, CCI LP primers. Velocities are averages.

180gr Remington JHP, 11.5gr VV 3N38 @ 1.250": 1,344 fps (20 fps ES)

200gr Beartooth WFNGC, 10.5gr VV 3N38 @ 1.250": 1,250 fps (8 fps ES!)

Brass looked very good coming from the stock, somewhat loose barrel. I know I had some data from a year or two back that showed 11.6gr giving my 1,380 fps from my (then) 20sf and a KKM bbl, but wasn't sure whether it was the 4.6" or 6" one. Even in the stock barrel I wouldn't see any problems working up some more, but I'm not sure doing so is really needed, but it would be fun.

I'm very pleased with both loads! Recoil was not bad, brass wasn't all dinged up or anything. Primers had slight flattening, but I stress slight. The 180gr Rem JHP is one of my favorite generic hollow points, and with the above load I would have no issues taking it into the field. The Beartooth 200gr WFNGC is probably my favorite serious .40/10mm bullet and at 1250 fps, it's gonna cut pretty deep into whatever it hits.

robert91922
07-01-2013, 00:48
These are really great loads, congrats :thumbsup:

I like 3N38 for hot 10mm loads too - very useful for jacketed bullets from 155 to 200gr and for 212gr hardcast (HB/BHN 23) as well.

SDGlock23
07-01-2013, 09:07
Thank you, Robert. I've looked over the 3N38 loads you have posted in the past for somewhat of a guideline as to what to use in the stock setup. I didn't want to go real high in the stock barrel, but it seems like 3N38 is on the forgiving side (pressure wise!) and it's one of the most consistent powders I've ever used in both the .40 S&W and 10mm. I was surprised at how good the brass looked from the stock barrel putting out velocities like these!

Oh yeah, I've got some 155gr and 165gr loads planned out too, as well as some 220gr data.

robert91922
07-08-2013, 00:23
I've been using custom IGB barrel, full supported. So take care and look for smileys on brass when using stock barrel.
And also, with my stock barrel 180gr hardcast bullets started to spray all arround on 27 yards target at approx. 1200 fps. A little better w. plated bullets, but no problem w. jacketed bullets because stock barrel was meant and tested for jacketed bullets only IMO.

littlejohn3rd
09-24-2013, 13:02
I just did some testing with 3N38 powder, after seeing Robert's results with it. I got some great results, I will definitely be using it from now on, at least for special loads, as it is expensive lol!

155 gr Rainier, 3N38 powder, G20 w/6in. L.W. barrel, 5 shot strings. 1.250 c.o.l., Fed LP primers, Rem brass.

1. 11.5 gr, 1360 avg, es 38; no pressure signs
2. 12.0 gr, 1402 avg, es 49; no signs
3. 12.5 gr, 1460 avg, es 22!; primers showing really slight flattening
4. 12.8 gr, 1465 avg, es 48; primers show slight flattening, but case expansion still fine
5. 13.1 gr, 1514 avg, es 59, primers more flattened, case expansion starting to show

I stopped there as I was satisfied with velocities and not wanting any higher pressures. A 4.6 barrel would be approx 100 fps less.

For comparison, 11.0 gr of 800-X did 1550 fps avg, es 17, but had slightly higher pressure signs than the 13.1 load, definitely hotter than what I would be comfortable with.

13.3 gr of AA #7 did 1420 fps avg, es 22, which is the highest I go with #7, it has similar pressure to the 12.5 load.

10.0 gr of Power Pistol did 1380 fps avg, es 13, no pressure signs whatsoever, this powder can go higher, but I did not load higher than book for this one yet.

So velocities are not much less than 800-X, especially at similar pressures from what I saw. I would say that they are within 30-40 fps at the same pressure.

littlejohn3rd
09-24-2013, 13:18
Here is some more testing with 3N38 and 180 gr Winchester bullets. I use a 'Shooting Chrony', I think it may read a little low, but it has been consistent. My velocities seem low compared to Robert's and SDGlock23's, but since they are consistent I will post for the comparisons with other powders I tried that day as well. I will upgrade to a better chrono eventually!

180 gr Winchester jhp, 3N38 powder, G20 w/ 6in L.W. barrel, 5 shot strings. 1.250 c.o.l., Fed LP primers, Rem brass.

A 4.6 barrel with 180 gr bullets would be approx 80 fps less.

1. 10.0 gr, 1242 avg, es 20; no pressure signs
2. 10.5 gr, 1290 avg, es 17; primers very slightly flattening
3. 11.0 gr, 1323 avg, es 16; primers slight flattening, case expansion still good
4. 11.5 gr, 1373 avg, es 25; primers more flattened but still ok, case expansion still ok
5. 12.0 gr, 1424 avg, es 15; primers getting too flat, case expansion now too much

For comparison, 10.0 800-X did 1384 fps avg, es 37; similar pressure to the 11.5 load of 3N38. A little hot but still ok.

12.0 gr of AA #7 did 1278 fps avg, es 21; too hot, similar to the 12.0 gr load of 3N38.

14.5 gr of AA #9 did 1317 fps avg, es 31; no pressure signs whatsoever.

8.7 gr of Power Pistol did only 1226 fps avg, es 32; not hot at all, no pressure signs,definitely room to go higher on this one, again just went with book for now.

So again as with the 155 gr bullets, 3N38 was very close to 800-X for velocities with similar pressures.

I have loads ready with 135 gr and 165 gr bullets, will be testing them soon.

littlejohn3rd
10-08-2013, 13:46
Was at range yesterday. More testing, this time with 165 gr. It was a cloudy day, 60 deg. F, chrony was working good.

165 gr. Montana Gold bullet, 3N38 powder, G20 w/Lone Wolf 6 in. barrel, 1.25 c.o.l., Fed LP primers, 5 shot strings.

1. 11.0 gr, 1307 avg, es 37; no pressure signs
2. 11.4 gr, 1346 avg, es 20; no signs
3. 11.7 gr, 1374 avg, es 26; no signs
4. 12.0 gr, 1392 avg, es 23; very slight flattening of primers
5. 12.3 gr, 1435 avg, es 26; again just very slight flattening of primers

This compares to control loads of 12.8 gr A.A. #7, 1326 avg, es 28; a little higher pressure signs, slight flattening of primer but still ok.

I also ran 10.0 gr Power Pistol, 1365 avg, es 8;similar to AA #7, slight flattening of primers but still ok, higher pressure than the 12.3 load of 3N38.

So again I found 3N38 to show some really good velocities at decent pressure.

I did some testing with 135 gr Sierra bullets, but had erratic readings on the chrono, will have to retest. I did get good results with Power Pistol, though, and will post them in that section.

robert91922
07-14-2014, 05:09
I found 3N38 to be the most versatile of VV powders for 10mm reloading. Made these decent hot loads, still safe in my IGB 4.6" custom barrel.

Here's a short summary:

212gr HC >>>>>> 11,4gr >> 1243 fps (italian Target bullets)
200gr HDY FMJ >> 12,0gr >> 1270 fps (might use for XTP as well)
180gr XTP >>>>> 12,6gr >> 1358 fps
165gr GD >>>>> 13,6gr >> 1478 fps
155gr GD/XTP >> 14,3gr >> 1501 fps (GD) / 1496 fps (XTP)

All these loads are safe in MY Glock 20 w. IGB barrel (only), so don't just copycat them, even at your own risk...
Start approx 15% lower and step up in 0,2 or 0,3 gr increments.

Now, in my free time, I am mostly hunting w. my own 30-06, 300WM and 223 Rem loads. But I never go out in woods without G20 on my hip, loaded w. 165gr GD's and 2 spare mags with 200gr XTP's.

_The_Shadow
07-14-2014, 08:22
Thanks for your range report Robert, looks great!
200gr HDY FMJ >> 12,0gr >> 1270 fps (might use for XTP as well)

Just remember the XTP's are longer than the FMJ's, thus you may need to adjust the powder charge down somewhat for the extra bullet length to keep pressures the same.

Ammunition Attrition
12-15-2014, 01:36
9.5g Viht N350 pushing 180g HAP, Fed GM150 Match primer, all @1.26 (per Speer #14, but added .05" to COAL)= 1350fps av, 10-shot string through KKM 6".
Gave it an "8" on my accuracy scale (8 out of 10 in "white," 4 inch inner dia. of target @25 yards with open night sites) . Charge feels more abrupt, sharper than 9.5g of 800x, which yields the same V, but is of course....more difficult to meter.
Needs more testing. Get 10 out of 10 with Blue Dot.