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Roro
01-05-2004, 10:21
Anyone try one yet? 11 net grams isnt bad. But will it actually fill you up?

Dragline
01-05-2004, 10:30
The last time I went to a Subway to try one of their "low fat" sandwiches I quickly realized how they can make them that way.

The sandwich was about 3" long, had very little content, and was gone in 3-4 bites.
I could have eaten four of them.

Glock13
01-05-2004, 10:38
Originally posted by Dragline
The last time I went to a Subway to try one of their "low fat" sandwiches I quickly realized how they can make them that way.

The sandwich was about 3" long, had very little content, and was gone in 3-4 bites.
I could have eaten four of them.

I don't know how long ago this was, but today you can actually get a pretty good sandwich which is low fat. Many of the 6 inch sandwiches are below 8 grams of fat. Granted you can't get cheese or regular mayo on them, but still not a bad sandwich. They have gotten much better over the years. I could be wrong, but I think they may be a little cheaper than years ago. They also have a much larger selection and new bread selections too.

I don't know about the Atkins items. I did see a lady getting one and she asked for mayo, ranch, and mustard on it---I don't know about that combination. It did look a little small though.

commander
01-05-2004, 12:15
Originally posted by Roro
Anyone try one yet? 11 net grams isnt bad. But will it actually fill you up? I had one Saturday. It's basically any 6" sub wrapped in a "low-carb" tortilla (instead of bread). Not bad but not a very large helping of meat. Didn't fill me up.

gwalchmai
01-05-2004, 12:20
I thought with Atkins you could have all the fat you could eat - it's the carbs they cut out.

commander
01-05-2004, 12:30
Originally posted by gwalchmai
I thought with Atkins you could have all the fat you could eat - it's the carbs they cut out. I wouldn't say "all the fat you can eat" on Atkins. There's a huge difference between "low-fat" and "low-carb" foods. On Atkins, you can eat more foods with higher fat content but too much of even a good thing isn't good.

BikerGoddess
01-05-2004, 12:54
Originally posted by Glock13
I don't know about the Atkins items. I did see a lady getting one and she asked for mayo, ranch, and mustard on it---I don't know about that combination. It did look a little small though. As long as it's not low fat mayo, that's a perfect combination.

The wraps aren't Induction-friendly, but not a bad choice for someone near or on Maintenance.

Laura

Ragin Cajun
01-05-2004, 13:03
In general, "Low fat" = HIGH carbs & LOW taste. They put in lots of sugar to make up for NO flavor.

Ender
01-05-2004, 18:21
Originally posted by gwalchmai
I thought with Atkins you could have all the fat you could eat - it's the carbs they cut out.

more or less, yeah. one of the nice things about Atkins is you never really get the feeling that you're "starving," because your blood sugar is so constant.

another thing i noticed after a few days is i sometimes had to remind myself to eat...appetite goes down BIG time.

JD8
01-06-2004, 12:10
The Atkins diet, like most fad diets are a joke. Its hard on your kidneys and with no carbs creates sugar crashes within the body, plus the all you can eat fat theory is ridiculous. (try running that one by a cardiologist) They seriously need to start teaching nutrition and diatetics at an early age.

BikerGoddess
01-06-2004, 12:46
Originally posted by JD8
The Atkins diet, like most fad diets are a joke. Its hard on your kidneys and with no carbs creates sugar crashes within the body, plus the all you can eat fat theory is ridiculous. (try running that one by a cardiologist) They seriously need to start teaching nutrition and diatetics at an early age.

;Q

How long is it before it stops being a fad? 30 years long enough?

It's not hard on the kidneys. Suddenly increasing your protein when you already have renal problems is not a good idea (and clearly and emphatically stated in the book) but Atkins does not *cause* kidney failure.

It's also not a *no* carb diet. And carbohydrates cause the release of insulin, which leads to low blood sugar. (Well, in large amounts, so do proteins, but never fat.)

It's also not an 'all you can eat' diet. You eat until you're *satisified*, not stuffed. That's reiterated several times in the book.

Dr. Atkins *was* a cardiologist.

I kinda get the feeling you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Laura

commander
01-06-2004, 13:43
Originally posted by BikerGoddess
;Q

How long is it before it stops being a fad? 30 years long enough?

It's not hard on the kidneys. Suddenly increasing your protein when you already have renal problems is not a good idea (and clearly and emphatically stated in the book) but Atkins does not *cause* kidney failure.

It's also not a *no* carb diet. And carbohydrates cause the release of insulin, which leads to low blood sugar. (Well, in large amounts, so do proteins, but never fat.)

It's also not an 'all you can eat' diet. You eat until you're *satisified*, not stuffed. That's reiterated several times in the book.

Dr. Atkins *was* a cardiologist.

I kinda get the feeling you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Laura
^6
What she said!

hodgdonhead
01-06-2004, 13:43
I have to agree with you Laura. Most people who are anti atkins have never read the book. I have been on Atkins for a bout a year now and I have went from 250 to 190 and holding. I have been visiting the doc regularly for checks ups and he is very impressed with my result. Even the blood work he did showed a HUGE drop in my Cholesterol (sp). I would imagine if my kidneys were getting pounded, the blood work would show that.

Atkins (at least for me) has been the easiest and surest way of keeping wieght off.

Mild Bill
01-06-2004, 23:43
Originally posted by JD8
The Atkins diet, like most fad diets are a joke. Its hard on your kidneys and with no carbs creates sugar crashes within the body, plus the all you can eat fat theory is ridiculous. (try running that one by a cardiologist) They seriously need to start teaching nutrition and diatetics at an early age.

I've seen a few posts criticizing Atkins where the person had NO IDEA what they were taking about,
but yours is way up there with the worst of them!

Salud!

;c

JD8
01-06-2004, 23:46
Originally posted by BikerGoddess
;Q

How long is it before it stops being a fad? 30 years long enough?

It's not hard on the kidneys. Suddenly increasing your protein when you already have renal problems is not a good idea (and clearly and emphatically stated in the book) but Atkins does not *cause* kidney failure.

It's also not a *no* carb diet. And carbohydrates cause the release of insulin, which leads to low blood sugar. (Well, in large amounts, so do proteins, but never fat.)

It's also not an 'all you can eat' diet. You eat until you're *satisified*, not stuffed. That's reiterated several times in the book.

Dr. Atkins *was* a cardiologist.

I kinda get the feeling you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Laura

If I don't know what I'm talking about then I guess I'd better drop out of med school and trash my Zoology/Biomedical Science degree. I'd love to discuss several aspects of diatetics, metabolism, glucogenesis, kreb cycles, gycolysis.... take your pick. I'm your Huckleberry...

First of all I never said anything about renal failure. I said its hard on your kidneys. Its a fact that meat proteins are harder to breakdown than dairy proteins for instance. The increase in the amount of protein consumed in the diet, especially from meat and dairy products, raises the levels of uric acid and urea in the blood. These are toxic by-products of protein breakdown and metabolism. The body eliminates this uric acid and urea by pumping lots of water into the kidneys and urinary tract to help it flush out. However, a detrimental side effect of this diuretic response is the loss of essential minerals from the body, including calcium.

If you care to pursue this discussion... please provide SCIENTIFIC evidence that elevated protein levels do not stress kidneys and do not cause some sort of water(majority of initial weight loss) and essential trace mineral loss.

Point is.. there are several arguments for pros and cons of this ridiculous diet. The American Cancer society, American Heart Association, Bassett Research Institute (one of the leading obesity research institutions in the U.S.) do not approve of these diets. I'll take this 7 ways till sunday over the opinion of one cardiologist's outdated theory.

And carbohydrates cause the release of insulin, which leads to low blood sugar. (Well, in large amounts, so do proteins, but never fat.)

oh and as far as this comment goes... I could sit here and relay remedial insults to your intelligence as you did to me and it would get me nowhere, however could you explain this statement? I really don't think you have a grasp of this relationship beyond a quick google search or Atkins book. I'll give you a little hint though... as blood glucose levels fall... so does insulin levels secreted by the pancreas. If you are going to TRY to discuss insulin on a remedial level.. discuss glucagon.. you know.. the opposite of insulin, the hormone release when blood sugar levels are TOO low from a no carb diet. Glucagon induces the liver to make glucose from certain essential proteins in our body. Yes I'm sure this is quite healthy, but by all means... please explain how I have "no idea what the hell I'm talking about".

JD8
01-06-2004, 23:52
Originally posted by Mild Bill
I've seen a few posts criticizing Atkins where the person had NO IDEA what they were taking about,
but yours is way up there with the worst of them!

Salud!

;c

I knew I'd step on a few egos here. Sorry... but if you care to discuss why I'm wrong scientifically, instead of opinion then by all means proceed, i.e... don't be simplistic and say I have no idea about what I'm talking about. Please explain how and why, what I said is wrong.

Wmarden
01-07-2004, 03:40
Originally posted by JD8

If you care to pursue this discussion... please provide SCIENTIFIC evidence that elevated protein levels do not stress kidneys and do not cause some sort of water(majority of initial weight loss) and essential trace mineral loss.


Actually the studies show that perhaps people with Kidney dmage may do better on a low protein diet, that is a far cry from studies that show a causal link with kidney damage.

As far as anecdotal evidence, Paul Anderson had kidney problems(brights disease) as a child and was in general a sickly child. It was only when his parents put him on a high protein diet(alot of raw meat too, some of the **** he would eat was quite disgusting to be honest. Raw meat shakes for example) that his health improved. His kidneys lasted over 40 years on that high protein diet before he eventually needed a transplant. And considering that he originally had brights disease I think that is quite a testimony.

As far as fads, if it works, it ain't a fad. And further it(or soemthing quite similar) has been done for thousands of years. Ask Inuits about their low carbohydrate and high fat diet. The inuits have only been eating that way for a few thousand years. They are not doing it for weightloss, they eat that way just because most of the food sources are animal up there. Very little plantlife up north.

I think the main reason people reacted negative towards you on this thread is you make sweeping pronouncements in a know-it-all manner. That is typical of students, less so of masters of their craft. I once went to a doctor who said that I knew best how to rehab my back because of my strength training experience. You don't have to know everything, and keeping and open mind will help you learn and mature in your craft.

JD8
01-07-2004, 04:30
Actually the studies show that perhaps people with Kidney dmage may do better on a low protein diet, that is a far cry from studies that show a causal link with kidney damage.

Hmmm... Ok.. well John Hopkins and the American Journal of Medicine would disagree for starters. Fair enough.. once again, I'll take that over opinion any day of the week.

As far as fads, if it works, it ain't a fad. And further it(or soemthing quite similar) has been done for thousands of years. Ask Inuits about their low carbohydrate and high fat diet. The inuits have only been eating that way for a few thousand years. They are not doing it for weightloss, they eat that way just because most of the food sources are animal up there. Very little plantlife up north.

I really don't understand the point here. Are you comparing the iniut's diet (high in omega 3-6-9s) to a possible high fat diet for the american public?? Stomach stapling works.... is it a fad? Is it a long term behavior towards better health?


I think the main reason people reacted negative towards you on this thread is you make sweeping pronouncements in a know-it-all manner.

I stated my opinion. I don't see how this is "know it all". When insulted remedially I respond and explained my background since it was discredited.

I once went to a doctor who said that I knew best how to rehab my back because of my strength training experience.

That's great. I had the same experience when I was 17 after being hit by a drunk driver. Had severe back pain for over a year and my weight training was the only thing that relieved it.

You don't have to know everything, and keeping and open mind will help you learn and mature in your craft.

Is this a message from Tony Robbins? or are you saying I have a closed mind/am immature in my "craft" because I disagree with the Atkins diet based on several courses/areas studied? How ironic.

gwalchmai
01-07-2004, 06:46
Originally posted by JD8
If you care to pursue this discussion... please provide SCIENTIFIC evidence that elevated protein levels do not stress kidneys and do not cause some sort of water(majority of initial weight loss) and essential trace mineral loss.Admittedly, it's been a few years since I was in school, but has the scientific method changed so much as to permit proving a negative?

BikerGoddess
01-07-2004, 16:27
Originally posted by JD8
If I don't know what I'm talking about then I guess I'd better drop out of med school and trash my Zoology/Biomedical Science degree. Ooowwww, med school.... I stand corrected. Anyone who can make it *in* to med school obviously knows what they're talking about. Automatically. Don't get me started on mistakes that actual doctors make.

You don't know what you're talking about because you haven't read the book and you don't know what the diet entails. It's not no carb, which you've stated at least twice. It's not high protein, which you seem to be stuck on. And if Dr. Atkin's status as a cardiologist doesn't stack up to your *STUDENT* status, then no one's ever going to convince you of anything.

Originally posted by JD8
First of all I never said anything about renal failure. I said its hard on your kidneys. Its a fact that meat proteins are harder to breakdown than dairy proteins for instance. The increase in the amount of protein consumed in the diet, especially from meat and dairy products, raises the levels of uric acid and urea in the blood. These are toxic by-products of protein breakdown and metabolism. The body eliminates this uric acid and urea by pumping lots of water into the kidneys and urinary tract to help it flush out. However, a detrimental side effect of this diuretic response is the loss of essential minerals from the body, including calcium. Gee, I don't have any *proof*, but it seems to me that being obese would be kinda hard on the body, too. And I didn't increase the amount of meat I ate when I started this way of eating a year ago. And my blood tests show that my kidneys are still functioning fine. Oh, and my glucose and triglycerides have improved quite a bit.

The high carb diet you're so enamored of is what caused me to get fat in the first place. It's what kept me fat for so many years. This horrible fad diet has allowed me to quit all my asthma meds and I don't have the unstable blood sugar as I did before. And my kidneys are just fine, thank you very much. That is, unless you don't trust my doctor to be able to tell.

IF you had read the book, you would have seen that Dr. Atkins recommends supplementation, especially during the Induction phase. He was well aware of the flushing of those essential minerals and the fact that the Induction menu didn't allow for their replacement. Again, IF you'd read the book, you would have seen that Induction is only two weeks, after which foods are added back in a controlled manner.

Originally posted by JD8
If you care to pursue this discussion... please provide SCIENTIFIC evidence that elevated protein levels do not stress kidneys and do not cause some sort of water(majority of initial weight loss) and essential trace mineral loss.
Two problems - I didn't say it didn't cause water loss and I didn't say that Atkins was a high protein diet. In fact, protein only comprises about 30% of ones caloric intake.

You're the one who's stuck on high protein, not me.

I eat better on Atkins than I did with low calorie, low fat. Fresh foods, very little processed crap, way more veggies. I suppose you think that frozen dinners are a good alternative to nutritious home cooked meals?

Originally posted by JD8
Point is.. there are several arguments for pros and cons of this ridiculous diet. The American Cancer society, American Heart Association, Bassett Research Institute (one of the leading obesity research institutions in the U.S.) do not approve of these diets. I'll take this 7 ways till sunday over the opinion of one cardiologist's outdated theory. It's so ridiculous that after being around for 30 years, millions are flocking to it and losing weight successfully AND KEEPING IT OFF.

Do you have any experience with this plan at all? or are you letting someone else think for you?

Originally posted by JD8
Oh and as far as this comment goes... I could sit here and relay remedial insults to your intelligence as you did to me and it would get me nowhere, however could you explain this statement? I really don't think you have a grasp of this relationship beyond a quick google search or Atkins book. I'll give you a little hint though... as blood glucose levels fall... so does insulin levels secreted by the pancreas. If you are going to TRY to discuss insulin on a remedial level.. discuss glucagon.. you know.. the opposite of insulin, the hormone release when blood sugar levels are TOO low from a no carb diet. Glucagon induces the liver to make glucose from certain essential proteins in our body. Yes I'm sure this is quite healthy, but by all means... please explain how I have "no idea what the hell I'm talking about". "relay remedial insults to my intelligence"? Interesting use of the word relay. But whatever.

Perhaps we can agree that ingesting carbohydrates results in the production of insulin? Well, ingesting large amounts of protein does the same thing. However, no amount of ingested fat will result in the production of insulin.

Perhaps you're familiar with the results of chronically high levels of insulin? If not, look it up. But that's what a high carb diet gives you. A high fat diet stabilizes your blood sugar.

And the body is quite capable of using ketones for fuel. It's not unnatural and it's not bad. Perhaps you'd like to argue with Mother Nature, as well?

Sure, you can use bigger words than I can, but you still have no idea what you're talking about. Read the book or shut the **** up.

Laura

Finally21
01-07-2004, 17:21
ahh the ATKINS discussion...gotta love it.

well I read his book, as hard as it was.

Again, the diet does work. People do lose weight. My sister is on Atkins. I know many people that are. But, again, I will never, ever recommend it to any of my cliental.

Like JD8, I get and read religiously all current health recommendations from peer-reviewed journals to keep up with my field, and he is pretty much right on the money, as hard as it may be for some of you to admit. The journals and organizations he cites are providers with the best, up-to-date, research in the world. I would take those opinions over anyone elses any day of the week.

I'm not here to make enemies. if it works for you, it works for you, but listen and not yell to what JD8 has to say. its pretty much the simple truth.

Mild Bill
01-07-2004, 17:23
Sorry, not so easily impressed or intimidated...

Just as they told me in the beginning... read the book...
All the myths are addressed...

I lost 30 pounds, the pain in my heart/chest DISAPPEARED, my blood pressure went from 170/110 to 122/78 (yesterday),
my cholesterol and triglycerides are way down and my HDL is up considerably.

The PAD (Periferal Arterial Disease) and the consequential intermittent claudication
in my right calf miraculously and thankfully just faded away without treatment with Plavix...
It was a dangerous warning...

My energy level is even and consistent throughout the day into the late night, and I'm in total control of my appetite for the first time in decades.
I feel great. The only times I feel like crap are when I eat a "balanced" meal...

But here's the kicker... similar anecdotal testimonies are commonplace...

Future nutritional and dietary knowledge will be influenced by what we're claiming and experiencing here...

;c

MrsKitty
01-07-2004, 21:40
Wasn't there some studies done with children who suffer from ADHD being placed on a modified Atkins diet? Thier symptoms drastically improved if I remember correctly...

JD8
01-07-2004, 22:32
Ahh I see Biker goddess has a chip on her shoulder.

You don't know what you're talking about because you haven't read the book and you don't know what the diet entails

How do you know what I read or haven't?? Oh yes... I must have not read it because I don't agree with it.

And if Dr. Atkin's status as a cardiologist doesn't stack up to your *STUDENT* status, then no one's ever going to convince you of anything.

I based my opinion on the research of organizations, institutions, and like Finally 21 said, peer-reviewed journals. Not once did I base my conclusions on ONE source like yourself. To some people.. if it is written in a book it must be true and if the book is written by a doctor then it must be an absolute. I don't follow this philosophy. You're right about the convincing part... I don't take just one person's word as the gospel when it comes to medicine/health.

The high carb diet you're so enamored of is what caused me to get fat in the first place.

Look I understand I stepped on your d*@k somewhere but lease go back and read my posts. Not once did I endorse a high carb diet. It goes against everything I believe. Please stop putting words in my mouth and making assumptions to further your pissing contest. I believe in moderation on everything. The american public doesn't know what moderation means. They eat TOO much of something which causes certain ailments and weight gain and then assume.. its bad for you. It's a neverending cycle. Same thing happened with fat and cholesterol in the late 80s. I don't believe in extremes unless its neccessary for certain cases like the clinically obese.

Sure, you can use bigger words than I can, but you still have no idea what you're talking about. Read the book or shut the **** up

Wow. ;i Oh I've read it and it was painful.. I've also read a ton of "big word" books and journals to go with it. However since we are on different levels as you have just stated. I'll agree to disagree.

MildBill and Hogdogonhead... I commend you on your weight loss and achievements of better health. If it works for you then to each their own. There are a lot of things that "work" that I don't agree with and this should never be taken as me discounting your achievements.

And the body is quite capable of using ketones for fuel. It's not unnatural and it's not bad. Perhaps you'd like to argue with Mother Nature, as well?

Doctors are normally worried about diabetic Ketoacidosis, however you are right. Ketosis is an natural, alternative, inefficient way for the body to provide energy. Once again.. where did I say anything about this?

BikerGoddess
01-08-2004, 07:48
Originally posted by JD8
Ahh I see Biker goddess has a chip on her shoulder.

How do you know what I read or haven't?? Oh yes... I must have not read it because I don't agree with it. If you're referring to this plan as a no carb, high protein diet, then you haven't read the book.

That is not what the diet is, at any point.

I don't think everyone should try this. There is no ONE plan that is going to work for everybody, because we're all different. What pisses me off is people spreading misinformation. If you don't favor high protein diets, then state that. But don't 'warn' people about the dangers of Atkins, because you're way off base.

Would you like to actually address any points I made in my previous post?

I've read quite a bit on this subject. If you'd read the book as you claim, then you would see that I've gotten more information than is available from that one source. I happen to think that many of your sources are biased, because there's no money in eating naturally to combat illness.

I'm through, until you deign to address my responses and stop insinuating I couldn't possibly know anything scientific because I'm not a college *student*.

Laura

Finally21
01-08-2004, 07:48
JD8, check your PM. :)

JD8
01-08-2004, 12:50
I'm through, until you deign to address my responses and stop insinuating I couldn't possibly know anything scientific because I'm not a college *student*.

Nothing to address... you have either made moot points I never mentioned or totally run off on tangents that I again... never mentioned. I prefer arguments backed by science, research, and general agreement among scholars in the community to ones filled with opinions and bruised egos.


I happen to think that many of your sources are biased, because there's no money in eating naturally to combat illness.

Doctors have been saying for decades, eat in moderation, eat more times a day with less portions, eat healthier and exercise. Are you seriously trying to imply that doctors, organizations, institutions, and researchers are in some conspiracy to give themselves more buisness?? Wow.. LOL if so then you are a seriously confused and simple individual. Please spare me from your unfounded rhetoric. You can insult me all you want but you'll only look less intelligent by insulting the ENTIRE medical community.

What pisses me off is people spreading misinformation

Yeah.. me too.

cnemikeman
01-08-2004, 13:07
JD8....

What city are you located in? I'll make sure to NEVER get sick there. :) Chill dude, chill........ we're a GUN board, not a medical correspondence course. You don't like Atkins? Cool. Your right and choice. Some of us do...... our right and choice. Atkins works for some people when nothing else will... some other methods work well for people, too. Here's a thought: how about we talk about how physicians feel about the 2nd amendment? What handguns you own/shoot/like...... something else. This topic is obviously going nowhere ( except downhill)....... so let's try something else.


MiKeMaN

JD8
01-08-2004, 13:41
What city are you located in? I'll make sure to NEVER get sick there. Chill dude, chill........

Chill?? I wasn't aware that I was upset. I take none of this personally. Its a BB ;i

Here's a thought: how about we talk about how physicians feel about the 2nd amendment?

in the food forum? Most physicians that I know own a gun if not multiple.

You don't like Atkins? Cool. Your right and choice. Some of us do...... our right and choice

Thanks, but this is a redundant statement that has already been stated. If you care to read all the posts you'd see that I'm not trying to talk anyone out of anything and if anything commended successful stories. If anything its me defending my position on my disagreement with the diet.

What city are you located in? I'll make sure to NEVER get sick there

Don't worry my friend. ;i I hope we don't meet, however if we do, I'll give you the option to have another trauma physician look at you while you are bleeding to death, etc.

nickg
01-08-2004, 14:30
i always tell people that instead of some fancy name or fad diet they should just try the "fat ass" diet. that's where you finally move your "fat ass" away from the dinner table or buffet trough.

seems to have worked a lot longer than some of these other "name" diets.

cnemikeman
01-08-2004, 14:46
Originally posted by JD8
Chill?? I wasn't aware that I was upset. I take none of this personally. Its a BB ;i

Yep. I know. That was my point. I was trying to lighten it up a bit.

in the food forum? Most physicians that I know own a gun if not multiple.

I realize where we are posting.... and that's cool to know DRs are into shooting and are pro-gun.

Thanks, but this is a redundant statement that has already been stated. If you care to read all the posts you'd see that I'm not trying to talk anyone out of anything and if anything commended successful stories. If anything its me defending my position on my disagreement with the diet.

Yeah, I've read the posts. LOTS of reading them. I understand you are defending your position. I applaud you for that. I was simply saying the argument was getting too heated and was hoping to mellow it out a bit. First beer on me. ;c


Don't worry my friend. ;i I hope we don't meet, however if we do, I'll give you the option to have another trauma physician look at you while you are bleeding to death, etc.

Best trauma physician I've ever met was at R Adams Cowley Shock Trauma Center. Helluva good guy. You wouldn't happen to be him, would you?? :)

If that 'bleeding to death option thing was a joke, fine...if not: I'm not trying to be a prick... I'd appreciate it if you would extend me the same courtesy. Damn dude....... chill.


MiKeMaN

JD8
01-08-2004, 15:09
If that 'bleeding to death option thing was a joke, fine...if not: I'm not trying to be a prick... I'd appreciate it if you would extend me the same courtesy.

Twas a joke man... in response that you hoped that you would have to be treated by myself.

cnemikeman
01-08-2004, 15:44
Cool deal. I'm ok with that. No harm, no foul. Meant to mention, by your tag line, you've got good taste in guns. :) They look a LOT like mine.
Have a Sam Adams Winter Ale on me........ ;c ;c ( Good beer, if you haven't tried it yet, do so!! )


MiKeMaN

Patricia
01-09-2004, 10:35
Laura, I do admire your tenacity on trying to educate the misinformed (and yes, that label even applies to doctors) about the benefits of Atkins. However, this discussion illustrates why I don't discuss Atkins in the general forums any longer. I just don't have the patience for it. It works, whether the naysayers want to believe it or not. If anyone interested in this is truly interested in being on Atkins, I have a private forum set up on GT for just this purpose. Please contact me for more information. The forum is not for debate however and is only for those serious about starting or staying on Atkins. It gets way too tiring having to wade through the same tired lines again and again from those who don't have a clue about this way of life. Notice I didn't mention "diet".

Anyway, back to the topic. I tried one of the wraps yesterday and it was fabulous. It filled me up, but then again, after the holidays I have been working deligently to get my stomach used to eating less (I was a very bad girl Atkins wise during the holidays ;J)

nickg
01-09-2004, 11:11
i enjoy food, and cooking and pasta and potatoes and good homemade bread. life if too short to worry about "a way of life, not a diet" --sounds more like a cult thing -- "this is your new way of life, you will now do things our way" ;Q

yeah i could stand to shed a few pounds. but am i FAT? no way. and i probably should lose some weight only for my own wanting to. but i'm not going to not eat what i enjoy. i'll just take my own advice of the "fat ass" diet and not go for that second porkchop or second heap of mashed potatoes with gravy.

have a baked potato with butter, eat some lasagna with homemade garlic bread, have a slab of chocolate cake, and enjoy a beer. like i said, life's too short NOT to enjoy the good things.

for all you know tomorrow you might get hit by a bus:
"too bad what happened to bob getting run over"
"yeah, but he sure looks good in that casket thanks to that low carb diet he was on" ;Q ;f

dpvan
01-09-2004, 11:18
Originally posted by JD8
If I don't know what I'm talking about then I guess I'd better drop out of med school and trash my Zoology/Biomedical Science degree. I'd love to discuss several aspects of diatetics, metabolism, glucogenesis, kreb cycles, gycolysis.... take your pick. I'm your Huckleberry...


JD8 - I happened to run into a physician friend of mine over lunch yesterday. He's been a urologist for over 20 years.

As we were chatting, he mentioned that he wants to lose some weight. We talked about the new elliptical exercise machine he just bought and compared notes on aerobic exercise since he knows I'm a serious exerciser.

At the end of the conversation, he said, "I know the Atkins diet worked for you and I've decided to go on it for myself."

I wonder if he's gone to some classes you haven't had yet.;)

JD8
01-09-2004, 11:30
"this is your new way of life, you will now do things our way"

;i ..And if you don't agree with the diet you are "misinformed" and their basic argument in return is to slander your intelligence and to discredit the entire medical profession. ;f

commander
01-09-2004, 12:18
Originally posted by JD8
;i ..And if you don't agree with the diet you are "misinformed" and their basic argument in return is to slander your intelligence and to discredit the entire medical profession. ;f
Not quite the entire medical profession.;Q

Both of my doctors are on and have suggested doing Atkins to me. My urologist lost 90 pounds last year. My PCP "lost a bunch" has maintained his goal weight "for years" on Atkins. I was at a large hospital's cafeteria a couple weeks ago and noticed a lot of "Atkins-Friendly" choices.

FWIW - I've lost 35 pounds so far in 3 months, 35 more to go. I have way more energy and way less appetite. My total cholesterol is 172 and going down. HDL/LDL is good and getting better. Blood-sugar now is stable without meds. Blood-pressure is back in the normal range without meds. Arthritis isn't bothering me as much so I'm able to jog 1.5 miles 3-4 times a week.

Atkins works.

JD8
01-09-2004, 17:25
Atkins works.

So does stomach stapling.

Nowhere have I said that the Atkins diet didn't work. Whenever you force your body into Ketogenesis.. you're gonna lose weight, plain and simple.

Patricia
01-09-2004, 19:44
Originally posted by JD8
;i ..And if you don't agree with the diet you are "misinformed" and their basic argument in return is to slander your intelligence and to discredit the entire medical profession. ;f

Not the entire medical profession, some are actually enlightened enough to know this works. Both my regular doc and my gyn both think Atkins is a great idea.

I have no desire to debate this with anyone. I am doing what is best for me.

Gee, here's a thought, how about we get this topic back on track. I don't believe it was started to discuss the pros and cons of Atkins, merely a menu item at Subway that is Atkins friendly.

MrsKitty
01-09-2004, 21:47
Originally posted by JD8
;i ..And if you don't agree with the diet you are "misinformed" and their basic argument in return is to slander your intelligence and to discredit the entire medical profession. ;f

JD8,

This thread was not started to debate the Atkins diet, or Atkins Nutritional Approach as some call it. Nor was it began to discuss any other diet or weight loss plan or procedure such as stomach stapling. It was started to discuss the new menu items at Subway.

We are all well aware that you are not an Atkins fan. Also, you can see there are some strong Atkins supporters here. We are not going to debate Atkins anymore.

Get back to the original topic of the thread!

MissKitty

JD8
01-09-2004, 22:05
Originally posted by misskitty5077
JD8,

This thread was not started to debate the Atkins diet, or Atkins Nutritional Approach as some call it. Nor was it began to discuss any other diet or weight loss plan or procedure such as stomach stapling. It was started to discuss the new menu items at Subway.

We are all well aware that you are not an Atkins fan. Also, you can see there are some strong Atkins supporters here. We are not going to debate Atkins anymore.

Get back to the original topic of the thread!

MissKitty

I apologize to the author of the thread for single-handedly hijacking this thread.

commander
01-12-2004, 16:03
Originally posted by JD8
Nowhere have I said that the Atkins diet didn't work. Whenever you force your body into Ketogenesis.. you're gonna lose weight, plain and simple.
Did you mean "Ketosis"?

http://atkins.com/helpatkins/faqs/faqWhatisketosis.html
What is ketosis?

Ketosis is really a shortening of the term lipolysis/ketosis. Lipolysis simply means that you're burning your fat stores and using them as the source of fuel they were meant to be. The by-products of burning fat are ketones, so ketosis is a secondary process of lipolysis. When your body releases ketones in your urine, it is chemical proof that you’re consuming your own stored fat. And the more ketones you release, the more fat you have dissolved.

If you are restricting the amount of carbohydrates you eat, your body turns to fat as its alternative source of energy. In effect, lipolysis/ketosis has replaced the alternative of burning glucose for energy. Both are perfectly normal processes.

People (and even some ill-informed doctors) often confuse ketosis, which is a perfectly normal metabolic process, with ketoacidosis, which is a life-threatening condition. The latter is the consequence of insulin-deficient subjects having out-of-control blood sugar levels, a condition that can occur as well in alcoholics and people in a state of extreme starvation. Ketosis and ketoacidosis may sound vaguely alike, but the two conditions are virtually polar opposites and can always be distinguished from each other by the fact that the diabetic has been consuming excessive carbohydrates and has high blood sugar, in sharp contrast to the fortunate person who is doing Atkins.

JD8
01-14-2004, 23:53
Originally posted by commander
Did you mean "Ketosis"?

http://atkins.com/helpatkins/faqs/faqWhatisketosis.html
What is ketosis?

Ketosis is really a shortening of the term lipolysis/ketosis. Lipolysis simply means that you're burning your fat stores and using them as the source of fuel they were meant to be. The by-products of burning fat are ketones, so ketosis is a secondary process of lipolysis. When your body releases ketones in your urine, it is chemical proof that you’re consuming your own stored fat. And the more ketones you release, the more fat you have dissolved.

If you are restricting the amount of carbohydrates you eat, your body turns to fat as its alternative source of energy. In effect, lipolysis/ketosis has replaced the alternative of burning glucose for energy. Both are perfectly normal processes.

People (and even some ill-informed doctors) often confuse ketosis, which is a perfectly normal metabolic process, with ketoacidosis, which is a life-threatening condition. The latter is the consequence of insulin-deficient subjects having out-of-control blood sugar levels, a condition that can occur as well in alcoholics and people in a state of extreme starvation. Ketosis and ketoacidosis may sound vaguely alike, but the two conditions are virtually polar opposites and can always be distinguished from each other by the fact that the diabetic has been consuming excessive carbohydrates and has high blood sugar, in sharp contrast to the fortunate person who is doing Atkins.

Didn't say Ketoacidosis my friend. Keto = Ketone and Genesis = to produce. We are talking about the same thing. Granted your quote from the atkins book was a simple explanation of the process. Once again I'm not arguing this biological process.

http://www.med.unibs.it/~marchesi/fatox.html

http://www.aw-bc.com/mathews/ch18/c18kg.htm

Look if you guys care to discuss this somewhere where anything can be said let me know, I'll give you a place, or you can stay in the safety of your private forum. You will not be edited, warned, or banned for ANYTHING you say. I'm tired of mods and admins that are bias pm'ing me and warning me as if I'm the only one replying to this thread. I like this forum due to my love of glocks and I don't want to get banned for exercising my 1st amendment rights over something as silly as the latest diet fad.

gwalchmai
01-15-2004, 06:17
Originally posted by JD8
I like this forum due to my love of glocks and I don't want to get banned for exercising my 1st amendment rights over something as silly as the latest diet fad. Respectfully, the First Ammendment has absolutely no bearing on your "right" to discuss diets on a privately owned and administered internet forum.

Wackmaster
01-16-2004, 10:10
I tried one of the Subway Wraps. They are very tasty but not nearly enough to fill me up. I think a 6" sub is more filling and a better value than the $4 wrap.

Also, I am taking no sides on the Atkins debate but regardless of the accuracy of an opinion, comments like this reduce the strength of the argument.

Read the book or shut the **** up.

Boogity Boogity
01-17-2004, 14:23
Wow! After reading JD8's posts, I guess I need to rethink all that weight I lost, the trouser sizes that went down, the cholestrol level that went down, the triglyceride level that went down, the heart rate, the pulse rate....


Maybe I should go back to eating the way JD8 would suggest, so I can gain all that weight back. My weight would be high, my cholestrol and triglycerides would be high, my BP and pulse rate would be hi. But the important thing is, people like JD8 would approve of the way I gained the weight back.

;Q

For me, seeing is believing. I don't care what the medical community thinks or recommends. They want us to be unhealthy so they have more patients thus more money.

Finally21
01-17-2004, 23:03
I've seen some ignorant posts before, but that one pretty much tops them all.

if you read JD8's posts over, you will see that he never said Atkins does not work. He simply explains the means by which it works.

As for your statement on whether or not you don't care what the medical community thinks or recommends, and we only want more patients...well Dr. Atkins was part of this community, and are you not following his diet? ;Q ;g

BikerGoddess
01-18-2004, 09:19
Originally posted by Finally21
if you read JD8's posts over, you will see that he never said Atkins does not work. He simply explains the means by which it works. Actually, he indicated that he didn't know what Atkins involved and made statements, that while true, don't apply.

Laura

earl simmons
01-18-2004, 14:01
Originally posted by Finally21
As for your statement on whether or not you don't care what the medical community thinks or recommends, and we only want more patients...well Dr. Atkins was part of this community, and are you not following his diet? ;Q ;g

I cannot agree with the second part of the statement, but I do understand the sentiment behind the first part. The medical community has a poor history of understanding any innovative techniques developed for physique improvement.

Erich
01-18-2004, 16:59
The first two Subway wraps (I got the second one only because it was convenient) I ate did not impress me. I stuck with the bacon/chicken and bacon/turkey wraps advertised. The bacon/turkey was okay, just not enough food.

Then my wife just had to try one, and dragged me back. The counterdude suggested I splurge for the extra buck for double meat (I hadn't even known this was an option), and Lo!, that was a pretty good meal! I also noticed that they'd posted a little sign showing the fundamental Atkins carbs in the meat part of all of their sandwiches (avoid the meatballs!).

I went back again on Friday and got a double-meat (+$1) double-cheese (+$.20) steak wrap - it was just fine. And since so much of the flavor of Subway's products comes from the (mainly lo-carb) fixin's anyway, I think I'll be back soon for another one of these things.

By the way, I lost 40 lbs from late-July to late-November, and have maintained since then (even through the holidays). My BP went down, my good cholesterol went up and my bad went down a tad (they were fine anyway), and my doctor was practically turning cartwheels when she saw me in Nov.

I got turned on to the Atkins diet by three research physicians, FWIW.

Patricia
01-19-2004, 09:55
I went to Subway again on Saturday, had a wrap, loved it. By the way, the only thing that makes it Atkins friendly is the tortilla they put it on. I've been making those for lunch ever since I came out of Induction. It is nice to have a fast food alternative. You can take any combo of meat and whatever to make one of these wraps. I had turkey and bacon on mine with lettuce and tomato. I stayed away from the dressings and just had some mayo and mustard on it. It was yummy and it was perfect for a filling lunch for me.

Wmarden
01-20-2004, 04:03
Where can you find these low carb wraps? By that I mean low carb tortillas. For me it would be an ideal lunch solution. Even if I had to buy a baking mix I would not mind.

I am down about 8-9 pounds after induction. Just starting the phase after.

BikerGoddess
01-20-2004, 07:35
I'm not sure what Subway uses, but the LaTortilla Factory ones are pretty decent. I got mine at a local low carb store, but check http://www.latortillafactory.com (there's a place to enter your zip code on the front page)

Laura