Would a 9mm, be enough protection agansit a moutain lion??? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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SENEN_NIEVES
01-12-2004, 12:53
MY question is the fact about these recent mountain lions attack, would a 9mm(glock 19) loaded with the right ammo(FMJ or Hornandy's xtp rounds), be enough to stop or drop a 110 to 200 lbs cougar????

01-12-2004, 13:22
It might with a good shot, but I would want something with a little more punch. I wouldnt hike up in any of the Northen mountains with out either a G21 or G20. Preferable the G20. The ulitmate would be a 12 guage with slugs.
I have some friends that went cross country last year. While they were hiking in the Yellow Stone area they had a close call with a Grizzy. Neither of them were armed.
If I am going to put myself in their environment I am going in prepared for an attack.
If those Mountain Lions can take down a full grown Mule deer then you are not a problem to them.
I have also read that grizzlys can run at 30+ mph for something like 20 to 30 minutes.
I think I would leave the 9mm at home and bring something larger.

be safe.

ILikeFtLbs
01-12-2004, 13:28
Yea, it'll work fine.

Dogbite
01-12-2004, 20:23
Mountain lion--yeah with hot loads.The problem comes if the country your in is also bear country.Bear and 9mm do not--i mean DO NOT go together.

6forsure
01-12-2004, 21:32
Yes. The hollow points. They're not Cape Buffalo or Polar bears. Better to stick to something shootable that you have experience with and is easy to carry.

Cowboy Kyle
01-12-2004, 21:37
I would think with a 33 round mag of 9 mm. should take care of any bear or mountain lion problems.

mpol777
01-12-2004, 22:20
200lbs is a huge mountain lion. IIRC the record is something like 225lb. Most are closer to 125lb, at least out by me.

noway
01-13-2004, 07:15
The problem with that is most, Mt.Lions will leave us alone & when they do attack it is normally without surprise and without warning. Using a 9mm and expecting just one shot to stop it might not be adviseable.

Down here, it took 2 county deputies (shooting) to stop (kill) a rabid Bobcat and they are less than 40lbs on average. Alot smaller than most Mt.lions/Panthers.

Remember all of the storys of people and police shooting rotts & pits with handguns and no effect??? I would think the same would exist with a real "wild" animals with claws&teeths that can do alot more damage than that of a dog.


So with that said, I would go no less than a 12/20ga load with buckshot.

Alchemy
01-13-2004, 08:11
I'm going to deviate from the thread for a minute, and give you
my opinion as to why we are seeing more cougar attacks.

It's called ballot box biology. Our good friends from PITA &
other such organizations have been successful in passing
legislation that prevents trained wildlife biologists from
controlling such predators thru certain means of hunting.

We have just seen on the news of the 2 mtn. bikers in Kali
that were attacked buy cougars. I believed that one survived, and
the other man was killed. Kali has had the cougar hunting ban
in place for over 20 yrs I believe.

Oregon just passed the no dog, no bait hunting of cougars a few
years ago. In just the few years that Oregon's ban has been in
effect, we have seen a dramatic rise in the cougar population.

This increase in the cougar population in certain areas of Ore.
has led to the decrease of deer and elk, and it's only going to
get worse!

Now back to the thread (sorry) I had to have my rant for the
morning, now I feel better!

I suppose that a 9mm would kill anything under the right
conditions, but the last two people that were attacked in Kali
were just minding their own business, riding their bikes.

Those two bikers could have had 458 wmg strapped on their backs,
and the end result would have been the same. They were stalked
and attacked....They never knew what hit them.

These animals are smart and cagey, and they will be on you in a
New York second.

So as to your question about a 9 being enough. Personally I
think that I'd want something bigger. Good luck if your taken
down by the back by one of these things....chances are that
you'll never see it coming!

noway
01-13-2004, 08:29
^6

Michigun
01-13-2004, 08:40
Originally posted by 6forsure
They're not Cape Buffalo...

;f

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138863&highlight=Buffalo

ILikeFtLbs
01-13-2004, 10:58
I think you are missing the point here. If you see it coming, the 9mm will work. A buddy of mine has shot a few with 17 hmr's at 30 yards. If you don't see the thing coming, who cares what you have........you're finished.

noway
01-13-2004, 11:11
agreed.

It was once stated by a big game expert and exotic hunter that the Mt Lion & Jaguar of the Americans and the Lepoard of Africa are the 3 of the hardest animals to hunt.

Very sneaky cat was want he stated.

They used their claws to hold the their food ( prey ) and bite them in the neck & head to kill them.Their attacks are sudden and often without warning, most of the time the prey only hear the whooshing of the animal leaping from cliff/tree and nothing else.

yes a 9mm probably could stop a Mt.lion but I sure as hell would not want to find out. ;T

Sixgun_Symphony
01-13-2004, 11:26
I guess the best way to avoid such surprise is to keep alert. Those granola eating backpackers and bicyclers are usually going about in condition white. They think of nature as being a safe environment like Disneyland.

It might be wise to take a dog with you when going out in the woods. They will likely detect the cat before you can. If the cat does leap on you, the dog may distract it enough for you to recover from the attack and fight back.

noway
01-13-2004, 11:29
{They will likely detect the cat before you can. If the cat does leap on you, the dog may distract it enough for you to recover from the attack and fight back.}

good point, I would rather use the dog as a "sacrifical lamb" and hope the cat jumps the dog first.
;f

Poohgyrr
01-15-2004, 10:44
Hey, leave my dogs alone. Any wild animals that mess w/ my trained attack ankle biters risk becoming a fur rug in front of our fireplace. ;L ;I ;)

Might seem like a good time to pack a heavy .44 Special though....

Or a G20/29......... :cool:

noway
01-15-2004, 11:51
Ha Ha Ha Ha.;f

I would love to see what a Mt.Lion would do to a dog.

My parents once feed and housed a Tomcat ( one of thoose "Coon" cats with the Raccoon shape tail ) and she was about 15 or so lbs and I saw her laid out a can of kick @#$% on a few of the neighborhood dogs. She was the only cats that I ever seen that wouldn't run away from dogs.

I guess a 100lb+ MT.Lions could kick a big dog rear-end with ease.

The old saying that I grew up with and about cats goes like this;

Dogs = danger on one point ( mouth only)
Cats = danger on three points ( mouth, front claws & rear )

PlasticGuy
01-15-2004, 15:06
I don't know about the dog thing. While on one hand it seems like pure genius -- something moderately expendable and with very keen senses would be great -- I think there may be a downside. Cougar are more likely to attack something that is smaller than itself and that is not human. I don't know if the dog would give you more warning if a cougar was in the area, or if it could lead to an attack that would not otherwise happen.

As to the original question, I believe a 9mm would kill a cougar with multiple hits that are well placed. Still, I would prefer something larger. And I don't consider a shotgun to be ideal, as you could not manouver it once the cougar came into contact with you. Once it touched you, you would no longer have a weapon. You need some power because cougar may not be that big but they are tough, which rules out anything smaller than a 9mm for me (and even that is somewhat marginal). You also need something that you can shoot quickly, which rules out the really powerful revolvers. Something like a .45 ACP with +P ammo or a .357 with full power hollowpoints would be my top picks.

skfullgun
01-15-2004, 20:18
I'd rather have something larger, but it is always, always a tradeoff between the size of the firearm (and caliber) and the ease of carry. I'd darn sure rather have a 9mm than nothing at all. On the other hand, my G30 packs a lot more punch and is only slightly larger.

JOE MACK
01-17-2004, 03:23
;Q The 9mm with hollow points would have no problem taking down a mountain lion. Just keep shooting until it stops. We've used everything from .22 magnums to regular deer rifles to kill them. We got to kill stock killers on depredation permits back in my home state.

The problem in Kalifornia is urbanites at the ballot box voting for wildlife control. These people haven't got a clue yet stopped all lion hunting in the state. One can't even import a cat taken in another state legally. The only way this will ever be reversed is if the soccer moms find a large kitty on their porch breakfasting on the family pet or a kid.:(

paynter2
01-17-2004, 10:30
I wonder if ML are like bear - that is, a bear will attack to protect its cubs. It might attack if it is old and can't feed normally. But, most wild animals that are 'on the hunt', will break off the attack if they feel they are in danger. A good hit from a 9mm would probably send the cat running. Something in these predators tells them that being wounded often turns fatal.

Any time I thought I needed protection in the wild, I'd take a 12ga riot gun. Slugs and buckshot. I've seen bear in the woods of N. WI and N. MN. But, they were generally going the other way at warp speed.

dieselguy
01-18-2004, 18:08
i'm from mass. so what do i know but i've always read that since they are light skinned, 22 mag is great when they're treed. now if i had one coming after me or my dog....double tap 357.

there's rumors of one running around in my town...in southeastern mass!

ronbwolf
01-18-2004, 18:09
Many guides use .38 specials for Mountain Lions, but they are shooting a treed animal usually. A 9mm would work for protection, they are basically thin skinned and 100-200 lbs, just like people. If you trust a 9mm for people, it should be okay. As for a surprise attack, a KNIFE, (fixed blade 8" or larger) would be better.

lethal tupperwa
01-19-2004, 18:04
up close

lethal tupperwa
01-19-2004, 18:05
up close;P

double tap. oops

noway
01-20-2004, 07:03
Yep... and I sure as hell won't trust any SD caliber handgun for talking one on that's doing a surprise attack and specially no 9mm or 38spc.

freepatriot
01-20-2004, 07:36
SENEN_NIEVES, your trusty Glock 19 holds 15+1 rounds of 9mm.

You get a good holster and have a good time hiking.

piersol
01-20-2004, 08:11
Cougar killed near Junction, TX

Welcome to Texas ......
How would you like to run into this about 30 min. before daylight, while you were walking to your deer stand, about 30 degrees, misty, overcast and dark!
IT WAS KILLED ON THE MONCRIEF RANCH APPROX. 20 MILES WEST OF JUNCTION
BY A COYOTE HUNTER USING A CALL. THE HUNTER IS 6' 2".

middy
01-20-2004, 18:38
Ooooh! ;P That's a big one! Do you know what he killed it with?

piersol
01-20-2004, 18:58
I'm not sure what it was killed with, I would venture to guess it was a deer rifle of some sort. I copied and pasted this from another message board.

Cowboy Kyle
01-21-2004, 01:54
What are you talkin about ? It looks sooo Cuddly!!;P ;g


Sorry had to change my shorts!!;J

Dogbite
01-24-2004, 20:54
Hey guys,i just remembered something i saw one time.It was a video of a guy hunting a big cat--i think it was a cougar.The dogs got the thing pinned in between some big boulders,the guy could see it and he ran up and shot in between the boulders with a large revolver.He thought he had killed it--then it jumped out of the rocks and let me tell you--it was so fast--it jumped on him--clawing and going crazy--he wrestled the thing around on the ground and someone else shot it.He did not have a chance--and the revolver was in hand.He never got off a second shot--it was crazy fast on top of him--clawed him very badly--

ILikeFtLbs
01-25-2004, 08:40
I saw that video. It was a cougar and the guy had a custom Ruger blackhawk .44 mag with 4 inch barrel. Shot the cat a number of times point blank before it stopped. He was cut up but he lived. Cat came from boulders uphill and tackled the guy. They both rolled down hill.

01-27-2004, 16:29
NO!

My father has personal experience in this matter. The 9mm did not stop it. One blast from my little brothers (he's 17) .44 Mag did teh trick though.


'nuff said.

10mmman
01-30-2004, 14:54
Capstick use to strap on a Hi Power and fencing pads when he had to go in after wounded Leopards (as a backup to his Winchester Model 12 with number 4s.)

TommyG19
02-02-2004, 13:21
In college I spent a summer with cross country teammates in the Colorado Rockies. We worked at Snow Mountain Ranch, which had miles and miles of trails.

At the time, we saw nothing wrong with running on isolated trails, 5+ miles from other humans, alone, shirtless, and too out of breath to do anything anyway.

Mountain lions were known to be in the area, and once or twice a week we'd hear of mountain lion spottings at the ranch. The other employees of the ranch just told us "if you're attacked by a mountain lion, fight back." We thought it was funny, and just kept running. ;L


After seeing that picture of the guy holding the beast, I think I'd want something larger than 9mm. More likely a revolver, too. If we are tumbling on the ground, I'd be worried that the action on a semi wouldn't be able to cycle fully. And a 12 guage with 00 buckshot would be good, too.

Sixgun_Symphony
02-02-2004, 13:31
Originally posted by Dogbite
Hey guys,i just remembered something i saw one time.It was a video of a guy hunting a big cat--i think it was a cougar.The dogs got the thing pinned in between some big boulders,the guy could see it and he ran up and shot in between the boulders with a large revolver.He thought he had killed it--then it jumped out of the rocks and let me tell you--it was so fast--it jumped on him--clawing and going crazy--he wrestled the thing around on the ground and someone else shot it.He did not have a chance--and the revolver was in hand.He never got off a second shot--it was crazy fast on top of him--clawed him very badly--

He might have been better served with a large sheath knife.

shrpshtr
02-11-2004, 10:48
Originally posted by piersol
Cougar killed near Junction, TX

Welcome to Texas ......
How would you like to run into this about 30 min. before daylight, while you were walking to your deer stand, about 30 degrees, misty, overcast and dark!
IT WAS KILLED ON THE MONCRIEF RANCH APPROX. 20 MILES WEST OF JUNCTION
BY A COYOTE HUNTER USING A CALL. THE HUNTER IS 6' 2".

i don't think that is a real picture. it looks to me like the guy has 2 left hands if it is (notice the thumb at the bottom of the visible hand on the cat. you should also see the cat dangling more.)

if it were real, that cat would be at least 300lbs and that man wouldn't be picking it up like that.

back to post topic, i don't think i would use a 9mm. but i don't feel that is a sufficient round for people either. i would go at least .40 or .45. i would carry hot loads to. i have also heard, if attacked by a mountain lion, don't play dead like with bears and gators, fight for your life because that is your only chance (albeit very slim).

dogbite is right, these things are so incredibly fast and strong, your chances of a successful fight are slim to none-existent. i can't possibly describe how these cats move if you have never seen them in person. tv does not do them any justice whatsoever. i was at a wildlife expo and saw one of these guys perform a little. all i could think is OH MY GOD! the amount of speed and control over their movements is simply astounding.

sctusa
02-11-2004, 11:01
Check out this other thread. Warning Shots (http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=221960)
Doesn't sound like these big kittys are scared of anything....

ILikeFtLbs
02-11-2004, 14:11
Originally posted by shrpshtr
i don't think that is a real picture. it looks to me like the guy has 2 left hands if it is (notice the thumb at the bottom of the visible hand on the cat. you should also see the cat dangling more.)

if it were real, that cat would be at least 300lbs and that man wouldn't be picking it up like that.

ILikeFtLbs
02-11-2004, 14:19
Sorry I messed this up:

That's not a thumb, it's a flattened palm. The picture is not fake, but no body knows where it really came from. Here's the story..Mountain Lion Story (http://www.auburnjournal.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=10620) . The cat is only about 200 LBS. I've shot bears that are only 300 and they are a lot bigger than that. The article says most cougars are only about 150Lbs.

Second point, don't play dead with a bear either. They won't let you off easy. Fight your best. If a black bear attacks, he wants to eat you, so playing dead will jsut let him keep chewing. If a brown bear attacks, he wants you dead and out of his territory. He will attack fast...a lot...hard...badly.

Read the suggestions at the bottom of the article I posted. On top of that, I would suggest carrying a gun. A 9mm will work fine despite the fact that some people have reservations about the caliber in general. I've seen cougars killed with .17 HMRs at 40 yards. A 17 hmr is a 17 grain bullet with 200 ft/lbs of energy. A 9mm is a 115-147 grain bullet with 350 ft/lbs. It will work.

sctusa
02-11-2004, 14:30
Closer to the foothills, area residents are receiving e-mails falsely claiming that a Weimar man out walking his dog used a pocket knife and a single slice to the throat to kill a 200-pound mountain lion. The story is accompanied with a photo and a bogus contention that the story ran in the Journal this past Monday.
Lion (http://www.auburnjournal.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=10620)

02-12-2004, 08:25
Originally posted by shrpshtr

dogbite is right, these things are so incredibly fast and strong, your chances of a successful fight are slim to none-existent. i can't possibly describe how these cats move if you have never seen them in person. tv does not do them any justice whatsoever. i was at a wildlife expo and saw one of these guys perform a little. all i could think is OH MY GOD! the amount of speed and control over their movements is simply astounding.

I second this heartily. These animals have HIGHLY developed muscles, and they can move like greased lightning. Watching one come running at you truly is scary. Also, you cant discount the fact that they are STRONG! Ive watched cougars (they are getting rather common in Central Texas unfortuneatly) tackle deer from trees, its pretty darn scary.

thats why the smallest thing I would use is a .45 or a .357 mag. Just personal opinion.

Sy_D_Wynder
02-13-2004, 13:25
A nine will be fine if you are intending to shoot the thing at close range in defense of yourself. You must also have at least one good knife which is accessible with either hand, and able to be drawn in a fighting grip with either hand. If one of these things lands on you from behind the knife might be the only chance you have. Hit 'em hard! The Side

noway
02-13-2004, 13:58
It still amaze me that people thing that their little puny handguns will work on most wild animals in a Self defensive nature.

Take for example the numerous storys of "insert common SD caliber" that didn't stop a pitbull or rott or chow from mauling somebody or a kid. Now place yourself in nature enviroment and change the 80-100lb pitbull/rott/chow to a 150-200lb cat called a "cougar", a animals that when compared to a common dog is a true HUNTER and makes the above mention dogs look like amateurs.

Yeap a 9mm might stop one, but I sure as "H" wouldn't want to find out the hard way.

Take the biggest gun/rifle that you can carry. The bad thing about this type of animal is, you most likely won't hear it or see it until it is right on top of you.

Timberwolf
02-18-2004, 16:49
IMO, as important as caliber is your ability to present. A G20 buried in your pack is, of course, worthless. Whatever you have, it must be immediately accessible with one hand as your other hand will be in the lion's mouth.

For black and brown bears, spray is statistically far more effective than any firearm.

Shooting a passive bear from cover is a universe away from shooting a charging bear.

You can practice shooting a charging bear by doubling your heartbeat and respiration, filling your underwear, and aiming at a bouncing grapefruit rushing at you at 25 mph with 3 seconds notice. If itís a brown, a handgun will at best allow you to go home the one-armed one-eyed man with a hell of a story.

Quake Guy
03-03-2004, 23:37
Long arms are useless. Cougars don't threaten or bluff like a bear. If a Cougar is hunting you, the first sign will be some thing heavy with sharp teeth on your back...

Not exactly an ideal situation to unsling your rifle and take aim...

.357 Snub would be ideal...