When will they stop overloading the aircrafts??? Safty issue for sure. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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flygirl
01-16-2004, 22:30
I did a manual weight and balance for one of our foreign carriers tonight. They overloaded the 747-200, exceding the zone structural limit by 500 kgs in one of the aft positions. Now I know that this does not sound like a lot to most people, but to me it's a BIG deal when I am required to trim out this plane and then sign on the dotted line. I get a little burned when the carriers think that if their cargo is half way to the destination it's better than not at all. Even if it has to sit in the warehouse for days till we can upload it to another flight. My Captin got pissed at me when I refused to sign the weight and balance. I did not sign, but I did make the offer to shift the cargo around to put it within the limits. And you know what? He took the flight out anyway. Any thoughts or views on this or am I just ranting?? :(

01-17-2004, 08:18
It's all about money. And it always has been. If the planes don't fly, the airline/cargo hauler goes broke. Canceling or delaying a flight is always a big deal to the airline. They (management)will do just about anything to keep the planes in the air...even violating the rules. They know that, generally speaking, the employees (pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, dispatchers, etc) will keep it safe for them. Just as you tried to do.

That captain is an idoit for taking the flight. Not only because it was unsafe, but he could also lose his license, and the airline could be fined, or even shut down. But since it was a foreign carrier, there will probably not be any consequences. The Feds could probably stop them from coming back into the U.S. though.

Texas T
01-17-2004, 08:50
Only suggestion I would have would be to keep good documentation on what you did, what you said, what he did and said, etc.

If something ever does happen in the future and they lose a plane you can be sure your job and actions will be looked at just like everybody else's.

Do you have an anonymous way to pass this info on to someone who might be able to do something about it? The reason I ask is that if something should happen in the future, would they try to nail you because you were aware of the problem and failed to notify someone of it? I don't know, I'm just asking.


T

Medpilot 2
01-17-2004, 12:39
but I did make the offer to shift the cargo around to put it within the limits.

I'm trying to ask this with out sonding like an ass, so why wasnt the plane loaded correctly in the first place?

As far as the whole situation goes, since it's your ass on the line too, the pilot should respect your decison not to sign for it. It would be different if it was just the pilot's responsibility.

M2 Carbine
01-18-2004, 00:15
flygirl,
Rule number one.
Always cover your butt.
As Texas T said if something happens, you along with everyone will be answering questions.

There are times that you may have to "cooperate" in a gray area but sometimes you can get the right thing done while still appearing to "cooperate".


I was standing there when a pilot friend wrote up the fifth tailrotor gearbox chip light in his helicopter log book.

Maintenance/company didn't want to change the gearbox because it wasn't making "all that much metal".

The base manager came walking up as my friend pulled a carbon copy from the helicopter log book.
The manager asked what that paper was.
The pilot said, "That's my wife's copy. She also has a copy of the other four log book write ups".

The manager grounded the chopper and the gear box was changed that night.;f

MarcDW
01-19-2004, 04:52
Flygirl you did the right thing. Don't let yourself being pushed into something unsafe.

One of the saddest days in my flying days was in ’94 when I was flying from LA to Fresno and had to hear on the radio a follow pilot asking the controller how far he was out, several times within 10-15 minutes.
The controller advised the pilot to make a landing at a closer airport if he would be low on fuel and the pilot’s last words were: “No, I will be all right”.
A few minutes later he ran out of fuel and crashed in the dark, because his company did not allow him to fuel more then “necessary” at the last field, because it was by a few lousy cent more expensive there!

One more story where the NTSB report reads: "PIC failed to maintain sufficient fuel ...", but the truth is, just because there are only a few jobs for too many pilots, pilots often get pressured into unsafe flying!

Skyhook
01-19-2004, 05:00
Wt&Bal is a bigger problem on some airlines than others.. limited flights makes 'making the schedule fit' a tougher call. There was a disaster where all were killed on TO involving that same issue with a Beech 1900, remember?
I can't help wondering if this airline (flygirl's) is the same one that was recently found to have faulty (sloppy) maintenance resulting in the inflight departure of the VS? Hmmmm? If it is, I think flygirl should take her expertise elsewhere. Interesting.

TangoUniform
01-19-2004, 11:55
I agree.

Sheesh.. don't these people have a computer program to figure up the W&B? If you're able to move the cans around to get in within limits, then it shouldn't have been that big of a deal..

but oh wait... we're talking about a foreign carrier.. in ANC, so, must be of the southeast Asian variety..

This wouldn't by chance be the same company that had a 74(?) take off from the TAXIWAY up in ANC a while back, would it?

TangoUniform
01-19-2004, 11:56
oh.. in any case, if i'd been the dispatcher, i wouldn't have signed off on it either.

..and i didn't think the plane could take off in that case..
??

Patriot328
01-19-2004, 20:30
Originally posted by Skyhook
Wt&Bal is a bigger problem on some airlines than others.. limited flights makes 'making the schedule fit' a tougher call. There was a disaster where all were killed on TO involving that same issue with a Beech 1900, remember?
I can't help wondering if this airline (flygirl's) is the same one that was recently found to have faulty (sloppy) maintenance resulting in the inflight departure of the VS? Hmmmm? If it is, I think flygirl should take her expertise elsewhere. Interesting.



Skyhook,

I agree with you on principle regarding overweight and whatnot, but that AirMidwest crash in CLT last year wasn't really caused by overweight or out of CG. The B1900 can take off at much higher weights than what that bird did. The military version, which is identical in performance to the civil version, has a higher TO weight and it's more than what the actual TO weight of the CLT plane. As far as aft CG in that accident, it was very aft, but the flight controls didn't move freely. The MX people f'ed up and rigged the controls wrong, so when the pilots pushed full forward, the elevator didn't go full travel, thereby lessing control authority. The poor souls didn't have enough nose down force to overcome the CG.

If the plane had the proper MX, it probably would never have crashed.


Links in the accident chain are very intersting. Usually it's seven events that bring an airliner down.

Skyhook
01-20-2004, 03:59
Ah, Patriot328, you are correct in that B1900 crash cause.. I appreciate your gentleman-like method of correcting, also. I do now remember that the loading was one of the initial suspected causes only.
Thanks for putting this straight.

Wulfenite
01-20-2004, 11:47
Originally posted by Patriot328
The poor souls didn't have enough nose down force to overcome the CG.

Did they attempt to fly the elevator with trim?

Skyhook
01-20-2004, 14:16
The final decision on that accident (US Airways Express, Beech 1900) is yet out and listed as 'Preliminary'. That ship went down on 01/08/04, one might think all the findings would have been solidified by now.

NTSB seems to be running at half-clock.

NTSB Identification: DCA03MA022. The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number DMS.
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of AIR MIDWEST INC (D.B.A. US Airways Express)
Accident occurred Wednesday, January 08, 2003 in Charlotte, NC
Aircraft: Beech 1900, registration: N233YV
Injuries: 21 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On January 8, 2003, at about 0849 Eastern Standard Time, Air Midwest flight 5481 (d.b.a. US Airways Express), a Beech 1900, N233YV, crashed shortly after takeoff from Charlotte-Douglas International Airport (CLT), Charlotte, North Carolina. The flight was a scheduled passenger flight to Greenville-Spartanburg, South Carolina. The 2 crewmembers and 19 passengers onboard were killed.
Index for Jan2003 | Index of months

Patriot328
01-20-2004, 17:13
Originally posted by Wulfenite
Did they attempt to fly the elevator with trim?


I don't know if they trimmed all the way, but they apparently went full deflection with the yoke (remember, trim won't change the amount of actual deflection, only the amount of force required to do the deflection)...

The full deflection didn't translate into the full deflection of the control surface, thereby denying the crew the ability to get the nose down... poor souls..

TheGrinch
01-20-2004, 18:03
Words to live a long life-

Speed is Life

Power is the Answer

Firewall is the Limit

You don't know what you Weigh

Grinch

20pilot
01-21-2004, 05:02
Originally posted by Patriot328
remember, trim won't change the amount of actual deflection, only the amount of force required to do the deflection True in the case of Beach 1900, but not true in all cases. In a Mooney the entire empennage moves with the trim so the trim actually controls the elevator authority. In the short body models, if you do not trim the elevator after dropping the gear and flaps, you will be on final with the yoke almost all the way back and will run out of control authority when you try and flare.

Patriot328
01-21-2004, 09:31
Originally posted by 20pilot
True in the case of Beach 1900, but not true in all cases. In a Mooney the entire empennage moves with the trim so the trim actually controls the elevator authority. In the short body models, if you do not trim the elevator after dropping the gear and flaps, you will be on final with the yoke almost all the way back and will run out of control authority when you try and flare.


Excellent point, 20pilot. I was describing a B1900 specifically. Aircraft with trimmable horizontal stabs (or empennage) would work a bit differently.

I miss the mooney... beautiful plane to fly... Didn't get to fly anything fance, just the M20J, but it was fun to get my Instrument Rating and commercial certificate in one..

Wulfenite
01-21-2004, 14:50
Studying "systems" is always the least interesting part of transitioning but its amazing how interesting it gets when you really really need to know.

flygirl
01-21-2004, 21:21
Good posts, all of them. This Airline is not the taxiway boys but come from the same area of the globe. It was not loaded in Anchorgae, we were just a transit/tech stop. I have had this problem a few times and do not mind shifting the cargo around, in fact it can be a challenge at times, sort of like putting together a jigsaw puzzle of sorts. I was able to find out the reason this flight came to us out of the zone limits. It was done on a computer program that failed to take into account the TOTAL zone weights (both the main deck weight and the lower cgo deck). After much *****ing on my part, they are going to manualy check the TOTAL and send it out right. I'm glad, but you can be sure that I will still recheck their totals when I sign my name. ^c