Can security guards at nuke plants carry automatics?

[Munchkine]

Thanks

[whiskerz]

yes they do. the DOE gets lotsa toys to protect there products.

[ProGlock]

It depends. First, if the DOE is actually providing the security themselves, then yes they can carry whatever they want. This goes for any other government agency.

The second option is for private armed security. There is a provision in the '86 MG ban that allows the BATF to give formal authorization to private companies/agencies/individuals(?) that it deems to have an actual need for a post-86 MG. However, I can count on one hand the number of companies that have that type of authorization.

[Munchkine]

Originally posted by ProGlock
It depends. First, if the DOE is actually providing the security themselves, then yes they can carry whatever they want. This goes for any other government agency.

The second option is for private armed security. There is a provision in the '86 MG ban that allows the BATF to give formal authorization to private companies/agencies/individuals(?) that it deems to have an actual need for a post-86 MG. However, I can count on one hand the number of companies that have that type of authorization.

Source?

Thanks

[ProGlock]

Originally posted by Munchkine
Source?

Thanks

The law.

[Munchkine]

But in Section 922 Title 18 it doesn't exempt private nuke security.

[frisco]

Last time I checked, the DOE is a government agency. Therefore, 18 USC 922 (o) reads:

922(o)

(1)Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.

(2) This subsection does not apply with respect to -

(A) a transfer to or by, or possession by or under the authority of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or

(B) any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect.

Contractors would be acting in the official capacitiy of the DOE so they could also use NFA weapons while under contract with DOE.

[ProGlock]

Correction there frisco, they could use <b>NON</b>-NFA weapons, meaning post-86 ban or rather "the good stuff we don't let peon citizens use" machine guns. ;f

[frisco]

Originally posted by ProGlock
Correction there frisco, they could use <b>NON</b>-NFA weapons, meaning post-86 ban or rather "the good stuff we don't let peon citizens use" machine guns. ;f

Actually, according to TITLE 26, Subtitle E, CHAPTER 53, Subchapter B, all firearms under definition of Part I section 5845 are required to be registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. (Some people use National Firearms Act (NFA) as a slang for the registry or firearms required to be registered under this law). 5845 is where the definitions of MG, SBR, SBS, AOW, DD, silencer and a host of other definitions are found.

Thus, the firearms (see definition in 5845) are in the registry. 18 USC 922(o) basically outlaws possession of post-86 firearms except as stated above.

;g

Post-86 MG's are NFA or registered weapons, we just can't own them.:(

FYI...
Subchapter A is where the ATF gets Taxing authority for the transfers.

Subchapter D is the 10 year, $10,000 fine that many people tend to quote.

[FreakyBig]

I know that the company working for the plants at Oak Ridge, TN issues sigs and M4s - semi-auto. I believe they are getting some SAWs for the special response team but not for general issue. Its hard enough training a soldier to burst fire let alone a security guard.

[mado]

I've been to two plants in PA and one in NJ (all pre 9/11 if that matters) and witnessed security with full auto at all of them. I didn't notice if the security was private or not. Actually at one PA plant I am sure it was DOE.

[ProGlock]

Originally posted by frisco
Actually, according to TITLE 26, Subtitle E, CHAPTER 53, Subchapter B, all firearms under definition of Part I section 5845 are required to be registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. (Some people use National Firearms Act (NFA) as a slang for the registry or firearms required to be registered under this law). 5845 is where the definitions of MG, SBR, SBS, AOW, DD, silencer and a host of other definitions are found.

Thus, the firearms (see definition in 5845) are in the registry. 18 USC 922(o) basically outlaws possession of post-86 firearms except as stated above.

;g

Post-86 MG's are NFA or registered weapons, we just can't own them.:(

FYI...
Subchapter A is where the ATF gets Taxing authority for the transfers.

Subchapter D is the 10 year, $10,000 fine that many people tend to quote.

Again, the distinction you have to understand here is that Federal agencies, such as the IRS, FBI, or CIA, etc., don't register their stuff with the BATF's records because they are already a government agency. The BATF's records hold NFA weapons possessed by individuals or corps, and also ones used police departments and such. Other Fed agencies...no. Another example is the Armed Forces. All the Army/Marines M-16s are not registered with the BATF either.

Now, with say the DoE and one of their approved subcontractors which the BATF has given their "seal of approval"/"adequate ass-kisser award", then yes that is entirely possible that their full-auto weapons are on the transfer record.

[ExNavyInHouston]

Is there a provision in the Patriot Act of knowing broadcasting the specific defenses (or weaknesses) in our secuirty of Nuclear Plants?

And would doing be a perceived threat (minimum requirement) or an actual threat to Homeland Security? ;f

Just a little sarcasm ... for Big Brother!

Navy

[RenegadeGlocker]

Well if it is a NFA state, they could do just about anything. I know of two Texas Billionaires who are protected by private security; one has hundreds of M16s to patrol the home, the other had body guards armed with MP5Ks. I am sure they have more than that, but that is what I actually know about.

[ProGlock]

I'm trying to think of other possible security companies that one could hire who have access to full-auto weaponry, specifically the TX billionaires RG mentioned. I can think of one contractor, EG&G.

[RenegadeGlocker]

Originally posted by ProGlock
Again, the distinction you have to understand here is that Federal agencies, such as the IRS, FBI, or CIA, etc., don't register their stuff with the BATF's records because they are already a government agency. The BATF's records hold NFA weapons possessed by individuals or corps, and also ones used police departments and such. Other Fed agencies...no. Another example is the Armed Forces. All the Army/Marines M-16s are not registered with the BATF either.


I would disagree with this. Those guns are registered within 24 hours of being made. The original maker notifies BATF when/who they are shipped to on F5.

Even PDs have F5s for all NFA weapons in their possession. Back in my covert days, all the stuff I had was marked and accounted for.

Sure every once in a while a clandestine agency will get a special run of NFA stuff not marked, but that is rare.

I actually asked this question to a manufacturer last Tuesday. He told me if I went to Iraq and picked up one of his weapons, it would be marked just like the one I own, except for the SN.

[LAWDOGKMS]

The DOE plants are physically protected by Wackenhut Security Guards..

Yes, that's right...Wackenhut..

Very high-speed, well trained Wackenhut Guards..

As far as Full-Auto weapons, it's possible, but I doubt it for Wackenhut Guards..

Now, DOE Agents are the ones that do the Nuclear Weapons Transport between the plants and the Military Bases..yes, they have lots of full-auto toys..

[FreakyBig]

As I stated earlier, Wackenhut does have full autos. They just picked up some SAWs and Barrett .50MBGs recently that I know of. Their general issue is however the M4s. I have quite a few friends working for Wackenhut presently.

[ProGlock]

Originally posted by RenegadeGlocker
I would disagree with this. Those guns are registered within 24 hours of being made. The original maker notifies BATF when/who they are shipped to on F5.

Even PDs have F5s for all NFA weapons in their possession. Back in my covert days, all the stuff I had was marked and accounted for.

Sure every once in a while a clandestine agency will get a special run of NFA stuff not marked, but that is rare.

I actually asked this question to a manufacturer last Tuesday. He told me if I went to Iraq and picked up one of his weapons, it would be marked just like the one I own, except for the SN.

No, that does not make sense. Why would one federal agency have to report to another? I agree that somewhere there WILL be a record of the purchase made (like buying bulk SAWs or M16s, etc.), probably with the GAO. Now if those weapons are to be used by agents for the IRS, why would they be entered to the BATF's registry? That's redundant overhead and completely unnecessary. The NFA law by its very nature applies to individual citizens/corps.

I understand that PDs and local/state govt's do have theirs registered; that's not in disagreement. I'm referring strictly to federal agencies.

Sec. 5841 Central registry

The Secretary shall maintain a central registry of all firearms in the United States which are <b>not in the possession or under the control of the United States.</b> This registry shall be known as the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record.

The bolded type clearly indicates the government.

[LAWDOGKMS]

Originally posted by FreakyBig
As I stated earlier, Wackenhut does have full autos. They just picked up some SAWs and Barrett .50MBGs recently that I know of. Their general issue is however the M4s. I have quite a few friends working for Wackenhut presently.

I humbly stand corrected..

LAWDOGKMS

[frisco]

Ok ProGlock, did some checking around and you and I are both partially correct.

Smaller one time purchases by the military are reg/transferred on a Form 5. Same with PD's etc.

Large contracts for standard weapons are not transferred, but delivered directly to the .mil or .gov. However, the ATF is still notified of the lot of serial numbers.

Weapons transfered out of the .mil to PD's are transferred on a Form 10 per DOD policy. (also known as the form of death since the PD cannot transfer the firearm ever again)

In fact, during the 70's Colt actually had an ATF agent who's office was in the manufacturing facility. That agent processed the paperwork for Colt on-site.

[RenegadeGlocker]

Originally posted by ProGlock
No, that does not make sense. Why would one federal agency have to report to another? I agree that somewhere there WILL be a record of the purchase made (like buying bulk SAWs or M16s, etc.), probably with the GAO. Now if those weapons are to be used by agents for the IRS, why would they be entered to the BATF's registry? That's redundant overhead and completely unnecessary. The NFA law by its very nature applies to individual citizens/corps.

Because when it is made, the maker has no idea who it is going to in most cases. So he has to register it on F2. And to cover his butt, he will keep paper on it when it transfers.

Sure if it is WWII and you are stamping out 1000s of Grease Guns a day, it is different. So I will concede historically, it might not have happened.

And yes, if he is building to contract that is different too. They will typically be stamped "Property of..". We all know HK did not mark MK23 Mod 0 magazines that were post-94 for example, or CIA had ******** make unmarked M16s for Contras.

But a lot of stuff today is off-the-shelf. for example, that Glock 18C (http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=219447&perpage=40&pagenumber=3) I mentioned. It is in the registry now, regardless of who may buy it in the future.

[RenegadeGlocker]

Now here is a typical CYA on why makers notify BATF on F2:

Suppose you are making a bad-ass M16 silencer, and even though you know they are all going to USSOCOM, how you going to explain to BATF when some Operator pockets it and brings it home? You can only CYA yourself if you registered it on F2 and tracked who you sold it to. Otherwise, BATF is going to claim you are selling under the table.

[ProGlock]

Originally posted by RenegadeGlocker
Now here is a typical CYA on why makers notify BATF on F2:

Suppose you are making a bad-ass M16 silencer, and even though you know they are all going to USSOCOM, how you going to explain to BATF when some Operator pockets it and brings it home? You can only CYA yourself if you registered it on F2 and tracked who you sold it to. Otherwise, BATF is going to claim you are selling under the table.

Ok, you're right about that. Even to manufacture said product, be it a MG or suppressor or RPG, a F2 will be needed. However, I do believe that <i>technically</i> if the manufacturer knows ahead of time that an allotment of MGs is going to a fed agency, there is no need for the F2. See my previous post on Sec. 5841.

I think that was the point I was trying to get across though that when a federal agency makes a purchase for hundreds of MGs, that doesn't make sense to register all that. Think about it about how many MGs are in the possession of the entire federal govt including armed forces...that's a lot. I guarantee you those few ladies at the NFA branch don't handle all of that.

[frisco]

Your right about the employees at the NFA branch being overloaded. ;g

I agree about large lots of weapons not filing a Form 2, but those are covered by government contract and the ATF is still notified, but they are not offically entered into the registry.

Now if the .mil buys a weapon not covered by an official contract then a form 2 is filed.

[mirialtacht]

Where I work security is provided by a contracter company (not Wackenhut). They are not DOE employees, but they are considered "federal officers" (not sure if that's the technically correct designation). And yes, they carry handguns, full-auto rifles, body armor, etc. Even have a few humvees with 50-cals mounted on top. I don't know what the legalities are regarding their authorization to have such weapons, but that's what they have.

[ProGlock]

Originally posted by mirialtacht
Where I work security is provided by a contracter company (not Wackenhut). They are not DOE employees, but they are considered "federal officers" (not sure if that's the technically correct designation). And yes, they carry handguns, full-auto rifles, body armor, etc. Even have a few humvees with 50-cals mounted on top. I don't know what the legalities are regarding their authorization to have such weapons, but that's what they have.

If they are a contractor, I highly doubt they have any real 'federal law enforcement' power of any kind. They can certainly exercise powers of detainment or arrest on the property of the nuclear facility, but off of it, no.

And yes, those "specially blessed agencies" can get any machine guns they want. Anything the armed forces have access to, they could conceivably have access to. Heck, for a couple of the largest plants in this nation, if I were the chief of security for that location, I could damn well justify the need for a minigun or two.

[frisco]

Heck, for a couple of the largest plants in this nation, if I were the chief of security for that location, I could damn well justify the need for a minigun or two.

Of course, if you were chief, you would need a few thousand acres for a private training facility. Tons of reactive targets, etc.

Kinda like a mini-KnobCreek ;N

[mirialtacht]

If they are a contractor, I highly doubt they have any real 'federal law enforcement' power of any kind. They can certainly exercise powers of detainment or arrest on the property of the nuclear facility, but off of it, no.

Yes, that's correct. Their authority is outlined in 10-1047-4 of the code of federal regulations. They can only detain or arrest on property controlled by DOE or its contractors, or for a violation which took place on said property or involved DOE/contractor property.

[ProGlock]

Originally posted by frisco
Of course, if you were chief, you would need a few thousand acres for a private training facility. Tons of reactive targets, etc.

Kinda like a mini-KnobCreek ;N

Oh hell yes...I would also justify buying ammunition by the trainload because of uh...well the minigun is just like an automobile. If you let it sit for too long, say several months or so, it just doesn't run well. That is why the minigun will require at least a 30 minute firing session every 2 weeks to keep it at maximum efficiency and performance ;f

Tracers will also be required for several reasons. First, we must be prepared for attacks during the night. The tracers will help our operators guide their fire. Secondly, it is important to ensure the targeting of the minigun is accurate and does not get off center over time (lol). Lastly because the tracers will serve as a training tool for all security personnel who may need to operate the minigun.

[Munchkine]

Okay I get it but one more question:

In New Jersey security guards at nuclear plants are barred from carrying any "assault weapons".

Now does Fed law supercede a state ban if the guards were private?

[mirialtacht]

What matters is whether or not the facility is a DOE facility. The Atomic Energy Act (1953-ish) is what authorizes DOE security to do what they are allowed to do: detain, arrest, use deadly force, have full-auto guns, etc. Any facility that deals with nuclear weapons and/or what are called Special Nuclear Materials (i.e. weapons grade plutonium and uranium) will be a DOE facility and will be governed by the Atomic Energy Act. This includes the nuclear weapons laboratories in Los Alamos, NM and Livermore, CA, but also places like the Nevada Test Site outside Vegas and Pantex in Texas.

On the other hand, nuclear power plants are not DOE facilities because they do not have nuclear weapons or weapons-grade materials. They only have reactor-grade materials. And if it's not a DOE facility, it's not governed by the Atomic Energy Act. Therefore they do not have the authority to have the full arsenal of weaponry that the DOE security guys have. They will be limited by the local state laws.

Edited to add: whether or not the security officers at a DOE facility are actual DOE employees or contractors is irrelevant. Again, what matters is whether or not the facility falls under the auspices of the Atomic Energy Act. If it does, out come the big guns.

[UZIFORME]

Security at Nuclear is specifically allowed to have post sample machineguns.

[Munchkine]

Got it.

Thanks

[bluemeanie]

I have worked at 30+ nuclear power plants in the last 16 years (dang), and being a gun guy, I observe that plant security is usually armed with an AR variant with all the preban goodies, but I have never asked whether they are capable of full-auto (burst)fire. Commercial power plants are not overseen by the DOE, however. They are licensed and regulated by the NRC, which is all about paper, not iron.
The DOE is USUALLY only on site when a fuel shipment of some sort is happening. They are truly bad_***** types, well-armed and well-trained, and if they didn't want we the protected to see them, we probably wouldn't, so that's why I say "usually". The main security forces are always supplied by private companies.

[G34MAN]

Before you start thinking of the Wachenhut guys as just your average security guard, think again. There was an article in I believe SWAT magazine about nuclear security. Most of those guys are former military special forces/special ops kinda stuff. I looked into getting a job with them, but I didn't qualify:( .