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sushi600
03-02-2004, 22:15
Wondering how many people have gotten themselves into spins (both intentionally and unintentionally).

How many of you did spin recovery (during PP training)? I personally feel "lacking" in that I never went through an "actual" spin recovery -- and in the back of my mind I keep wondering if I would handle it properly if I ever got myself into one.

40Cal
03-02-2004, 23:04
I've never been in one either and I have the same thoughts. I thought I'd do it in my commercial training but didn't. I'd like to think I'd know what to do from reading the procedure but you never know until it happens.

sushi600
03-02-2004, 23:54
I feel the same way... I would like to believe I would be able to get out of it based on textbook knowledge, but don't know if I will be able to cut the mustard.

Not too familiar with acrobatic flight, but do they go into intentional spins and other stuff? I would love to get into as many "bad" situations as possible in a controlled environment, and I figure a few rides with an acro-pilot would do me good (assuming it's not THAT expensive...).

FB3
03-03-2004, 04:29
No matter how much you read and brief, your first several spins will probably be somewhat traumatic. My first one was instructional back in 1966, and it was a little scary. Since then, I have been in quite a few spins, mostly intentional, and it is not a big deal to recover IF you have enough altitude and use the correct procedures.

All unintentional spins that I have experienced were at high altitude in aerobatic aircraft, and were caused by improper control inputs in very high angle of attack and attitude maneuvers. A well developed spin in some high performance aerobatic aircraft can get one in trouble due to the fact that it is easy to transition from erect to inverted with very little difference in visual cues, therefore accelerating the spin if the improper recovery is used. The high rate of rotation can be very disorienting.

I can't recommend strongly enough that every pilot get spin training with a qualified pilot in an aircraft that is certified for spins. This will be time and money well spent and may save your life someday. Once you experience a few spins, they will not be intimidating or frightening, and will really reinforce the reason for proper flying techniques in the pattern.

Timotheous46
03-03-2004, 05:28
When I was going for my commercial, my instructor noticed that I hadnít done any spins. He informed me that the next day we would take his airplane up instead of mine.

I still remember the sight of the farmhouse spinning in the windshield on my first spin.;G Iím sure that there are still slight imprints where I gripped the seat and airframe in a general mood of extreme panic. But he got me going into and OUT of spins by the time the flight was over. ;a

Tim

Skyhook
03-03-2004, 11:52
Before soloing I had to demonstrate R & L spin recovery techniques in the J-3. Imagine that with a pre-solo time (total) of 6.5 hrs.

My last spin was in the RV-4 with my wife in the back.. I was messing about with flattening out the top of the loops when the little red thing stalled inverted and spun. No biggie in the -4, but I have flown some that were not known to fly themselves out of such maneuvers.

JonnyB
03-03-2004, 14:54
Didn't do any in my initial training, but did after. Used a Citabria for initial training as well as spins. They're a hoot, if your stomach can stand it. I had to quit after a half-hour or so.

We did them left and right. Then from left into a right (or right to left - it's been ten years, pert-near). Then, for additional fun, the "falling leaf", where you stall the aircraft, but use the rudder to keep it from spinning. Hold the stick back, keeping it from recovering, and just 'walk' it down. It feels and looks like a falling leaf. Don't look at the VSI, though, and DON'T do it without a lot of air beneath you!

JB

sopdan
03-03-2004, 15:15
I haven't yet, but by the time I'm done with my training I will have done spins in an Extra 300 and most likely the 172, as well... I can't wait for the Extra. :)

40Cal
03-03-2004, 15:18
Originally posted by sopdan
I haven't yet, but by the time I'm done with my training I will have done spins in an Extra 300 and most likely the 172, as well... I can't wait for the Extra. :)

What kind of training are you taking?

Skyhook
03-03-2004, 15:30
Whut 40Cal said... That Extra 300 stuff isn't in most student's itinerary..;P
(Wished it was in mine, tho.)

sopdan
03-03-2004, 18:48
Originally posted by 40Cal
What kind of training are you taking?

I'm at WMU... it's part of our curriculum. We actually have two Extras

myounger
03-03-2004, 19:12
It was an option when I was a student, 1980. Right place at the right time. We had an old work horse of a 150 that was going in for a major "0" time and new avonics. Owner and my CFI said lets go do spins. Spins left, spins right, we did a whole bunch of them.
Man, was that fun.
Spun the guts out of the gyro! But the old 150 never flinched.
Those first two or three scared the hell out of me!
Never got to do any since then, sure not in the "new" 150!
Every pilot should do a couple with a good CFI.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards, Mike

M2 Carbine
03-04-2004, 13:12
In 1960 did spins when I was a student, in a Piper Colt, my Aeronca and later a Stinson.

When I was instructing in the mid 60's we did spins all the time.
We took all the gyros out of a C172 and strapped a case of oil behind the rear seat. Without the oil the old bird wouldn't stay in the spin.


The funniest spin I was in was with a friend who was trying to pay me back for things I had done to him during our flying in my Stinson.

He rented a C150 Aerobat (I think they were called).
We put on chutes and he was going to take me for a ride.
Level at a few thousand feet I noticed him sneaking the A/S back to maneuvering speed as he was talking.

When he hit M/S he yanked the wheel back and stood on the right pedal.
His seat broke loose and he slid back into the baggage compartment, still hanging on to the wheel. (he was 6'2").


We were doing snap rolls from hell as the plane nosed over still spinning, passing through about 2,000 feet.

I kept yelling, Get off the ******* controls.

He kept yelling, Can you land it? (I hadn't flown a Cessna then)

I said, Ya,if you get off the ******* controls.

He finally let go and I got us out of the spin and I landed.

I wouldn't let him live down that trick for years.;f

Skyhook
03-04-2004, 13:42
;P

Some Cessna seats were prone to letting the occupant flop around w/o warning.. Never had it happen to me, though.

40Cal
03-04-2004, 14:12
Originally posted by Skyhook
;P

Some Cessna seats were prone to letting the occupant flop around w/o warning.. Never had it happen to me, though.

Oh man, now you've gone and done it. ;P

I'm gonna make it easy for you though,
just knock on your screen right here
http://www.wzinternational.com/lumber.gif

aircarver
03-05-2004, 18:54
I had a Cessna (172) seat runaway at rotation for takeoff. Envisioning 'bad things' if I held on to the controls, I let go as i zinged back into the back seat. Fortunately. it was an instrument practice flight and my check pilot, who was dozing, grabbed it when I yelled at him to take it. The Cessna managed to fly away 'hands off' very well during the seconds nobody was in charge.... ;Q

SlimlineGlock
03-05-2004, 19:04
I had a Cessna 337 seat zing back on me during takeoff roll. I was solo.

A quick unsnap of the seat belt and a crouch on the floor to continue the takeoff. Lots of fun!

Skyhook
03-06-2004, 05:18
40Cal, thanks for the wood.. (gee, hasn't my wife said something like that?).
Anyhow, as one can see, those Cessna seats have had some anti-boring engineered into them!;f

PersonalFirepower
03-24-2004, 10:52
About 6 weeks ago, I was out on a solo practice flight in a Cessna 152, just me by my lonesome. I climbed to 3000ft and started doing some power off stall practice. The first one was a little wimpy so the next time, I pulled back harder on the yoke. Stall warning is blaring, but the plane kind of floated there, not climbing any more, but not stalling. All of a sudden, the nose drops like a rock, and to make matters worse, the left wing drops down as well toward the ground.

"Holy SH#@!!!!"

What the hell just happened? I haven't been here before!

I did nearly a full turn pointing straight down at the ground, and as this was happening, I was instinctively applying right rudder. After the aircraft straightened out, I appled back pressure and clmbed out of the dive. All this time I am saying to myself "Simon, if you don't get yourself out of this, you are going to die". Needless to say, I am still here to write this post!

What was scary about the whole thing was that my instructor had never showed me what a spin was, lest even what a recovery should look like. Fortunately, I had read about spin recovery a few days earlier and must have applied what I had read about to recover. When I talked to her about it later, she said that she was happy that I recovered, but not to worry as a spin can quite easily happen in a 152.

The next week, we went up and did about 6 spins just to become comfortable with them. And after that session, I am comfortable. I do think that spin training should be mandatory!

Cheers,

M2 Carbine
03-24-2004, 12:08
PersonalFirepower,

This is what happens when a pilot doesn't understand what makes a wing fly, stall and spin.

The pilot was a CFI in FW and helicopters but he just didn't understand how the wing stalled when the engine was at full power.

BTW, if you haven't read it, get the book "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche. It's a good read.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p8d8745b509d123b27af3d6faedd0f340/fa685418.jpg

PersonalFirepower
03-24-2004, 13:53
That's a horrible thing to have to have to happen to someone, no doubt.

For the purposes of my flight training, I do understand the (basic) aerodynamics of why a wing stalls, irrespective of whether power is applied into the equation or not. While my actions in piloting the aircraft certainly were the only reason why my aircraft started an incipient spin (ie. not quick enough on the rudder), what surprised me was the severity and the speed at which it had happened, and that I had not been shown or informed by my intructor that there was a possibility this could even happen or how to recover from it.

Had it not been for me being the bookworm that I am, I may not have not known about spin recovery and I possibly wouldn't be here writing this. To a pilot trained in spin recovery, what happened to me would not even be an issue, but as I was uneducated about spins, it could have been very dangerous.

I am unsure why spin training is not included in the private pilot practical test standards, but if there is a chance that an aircraft can be placed into a spin (which there is), it is my opinion that a student should be instructed in how to safely recover from that event. And after being shown how to recover, I can say that it's really not that big of a deal. You just have to know that it can happen and what to do to recover.

Thank you for the tip on the book. I have been meaning to pick this one up. From the information I have garnered, it is a recommended read. I'll be sure to order it.

Respectfully,

M2 Carbine
03-24-2004, 15:05
PersonalFirepower,

When I was instructing, before I soloed a student I would at least show and explain to them in some detail how easily it is for the plane to "snap over the top" from an accelerated turn stall, especially with the controls crossed a little.

(but all instructors have their own methods)

In your case it sounds like you entered the spin from a (normal) flat stall but with the nose pretty high so you got the whole wing to stall.
Probably in most of the stalls you've see and practiced much of the wing is still flying. That's why the plane will easily fly out of the stall when you relax back pressure and give it power.
As you saw when you stall the whole wing it's a different ball game.
That's why you don't practice close to the ground.:)


The pilot in this Citabria had a thing about "pull the stick back and watch it climb" on takeoff.

With full power the whole wing stalls all at once (more or less) so it takes a lot of altitude to get flying again.
He never appreciated that fact.

Take care.

sushi600
03-24-2004, 16:35
PersonalFirepower: Glad to hear you made it out of it OK.

These stories have me slightly worried as I never really did any spin training. Now I'm really itching to do some spin training, and called up a few schools in the northeast. Looking for unusual attitudes and emergency spin recovery, and Gyroscopic Obsessions (Michael Mancuso?) seems to be the only one with a low-wing (Extra 300) in my area. WOWEE is it expensive though -- $300+ an hour!!! But it may possibly save the lives of my passengers one day. Problem is he mentioned he won't have his plane in the NY area until May.

:(

C150J
03-24-2004, 18:20
I took this course - http://www.fcitraining.com/

On the last day, I did a ten-turn inverted spin. YEEEEEE-HAWWW!

J.

M2 Carbine
03-24-2004, 21:14
Now that looks like fun.;f

Jim in MI
03-25-2004, 08:01
I've only been in a small plane twice so far, but I read that a modern small plane will get itself out of a spin if the pilot quits inputting the controls for spin. The author says an ashen face student of his landed and said he accidentally put the plane into his first spin practicing stalls; the student didn't know what to do so he just let go of the controls completely, and the plane came out of the spin.

Is this way too simplified?

PersonalFirepower
03-25-2004, 08:04
Yes, I did enter the spin from a normal stall. As the aircraft was 'hanging there' not dropping, I did pull back on the yoke to induce the stall as my instructor had shown me previously. I had thought that I did everything the same as she had shown me, that's why it came as a complete surprise to me when the left wing snapped down violently like that!! But as you wrote, the whole wing was completely stalled and then maybe the left turning tendency caused my left wing to drop like that.

I did have a reasonable amount of altitude to correct. When I started the stall, I was at 3000ft MSL (2300 AGL), and in all honesty, I did recover very quickly (within approx. 200-300feet, maybe less). Looking back (after doing more spins), it really was no big deal, but it was to me at the time!

Sushi600.....I hope I haven't scared you! By the way, you don't need an Extra to practice spin training. Even a little Cessna 152 is rated for spins and a CFI should be able to show you these spins and their recovery inside of a normal lesson.....at least mine did.

We started our spins at 6000ft and had Detroit aproach giving us traffic advisories.

Cheers,

M2 Carbine
03-25-2004, 09:20
Originally posted by Jim in MI
I've only been in a small plane twice so far, but I read that a modern small plane will get itself out of a spin if the pilot quits inputting the controls for spin. The author says an ashen face student of his landed and said he accidentally put the plane into his first spin practicing stalls; the student didn't know what to do so he just let go of the controls completely, and the plane came out of the spin.

Is this way too simplified?

Yes Jim that's true, an airplane like a C152 should should stop spinning almost immediately if you center the controls.
Then you will have to pull out of a very nose low, probably high speed dive.
All of which may take a good bit of altitude.
I think a rule of thumb is you lose 500 foot for each turn.
Of course that depends on the airplane, etc.

As a matter of fact we used to use a C172 for spin practice and the only way we could keep it spinning was by having a case of oil tied down in the baggage compartment.

Skyhook
03-25-2004, 10:36
However, since it is not all that unusual to find an otherwise good-looking acft out of rig, it is very important to get the thing to altitude and stall it in the various configurations.
Also, once happy with the stall recoveries, one should practice slow flight (blaring stall horn & rattling elevators) until he/she is bored beyond description. Remember, If you can't fly it slowly, you can't fly it.
Three dimensional behavior is demanding.

;f

sushi600
03-25-2004, 22:25
Originally posted by PersonalFirepower

Sushi600.....I hope I haven't scared you! By the way, you don't need an Extra to practice spin training. Even a little Cessna 152 is rated for spins and a CFI should be able to show you these spins and their recovery inside of a normal lesson.....at least mine did.



:) Not scared yet. I do get a little nervous when I have passengers on board though -- feel I have a responsibility to them when they step aboard my plane.

Reason I was looking for the Extra was because I figured it was a low wing, so it would be most similar to a Piper Cherokee Warrior (not spin rated) and that it would best "simulate" a spin in that plane. Hoping some of you higher time pilots can tell me if there is a flaw in my logic (if there is, it would save me quite a number of bucks ;) ).

Fly safe everyone.

C150J
03-26-2004, 00:13
I'd go for a Decathelon if you're looking for something to emulate non-aerobatic GA aircraft. The Extra is an AMAZING plane, but it's no Cherokee. The thing is touchy (the ailerons are so big that you can counteract yaw coupling and OVERIDE a spin with such input), and tailored to competition acro.


I've done spins in three types of aircraft, and I'd have to say that the 8KCAB (Decathelon) is your best bet. The high/low wing is inconsequential...you're not going to know if you're even in an airplane for the first few turns;a

Blue Skies!
J.