M Series Pistols: Drop Safe? [Archive]

Zundfolge

04-22-2004, 21:40

There have been several long (and somewhat heated and polemic) debates over on TFL and THR about the lack of a firing pin block (you'll note that most of the threads where locked by moderators).

The argument from the "Steyr ain't safe" side is that vertical movement of the slide and sear could cause an accidental discharge (either from dropping or fatigue from age).

However the "Steyr is safe" side (where you'll find me sitting) states that basically the amount of vertical travel of the sear that would be required to cause a discharge would require so much force that it would rip the pistol in two (and no pistol could survive that without possible discharge) and that just dropping the gun wouldn't produce near enough force.

c5367

04-22-2004, 22:35

Like Zund, I'm in the Steyr is safe camp. The only way the firng pin can move forward is if the sear drops. The safeties prevent that from happening unless the trigger is pulled. If one were to drop the pistol, it would have to be so violent as to break the rails on the subframe, which are pretty darn beefy. Much moreso than a Glock. Even then it isn't likely to fire.

04-23-2004, 15:38

I'm a happy Steyr S owner.

Been keeping an eye on these guns since their inception and have read all possible threads on the Net mentioning them.

Count me in the "safe" camp as well.
I have repeated some of the "scientific experiments" used by the proponents of "steyr is unsafe" notion as arguments and based on my common sense and professional experience as a mechanical engineer I came to the conclusion that these guns are as safe as a handgun gets to be.

Cheers!;c

DAIadvisor

04-24-2004, 22:31

From what I have heard, Steyrs are "drop safe". They've been engineered by the same guy that did Glocks, so I am sure that drop safety did not go unnoticed by him...

SELFDEFENSE

04-25-2004, 06:03

In my unscientific tests of violent shaking and reversal of direction I have not been able to trip the striker.

mrapathy2000

05-02-2004, 01:40

Cornbread2

05-11-2004, 15:26

You people have a lot to learn about gun design and I hope it does not take the death of someone you know to inform you that you don't know **** about the gun you carry.

The "debates" on TFL and the even more liberal and stupid High Road are some of the most lame and completly worthless waste of time and space that ever made the internet.

You had about three people that understood the Steyr design and at least 100 that did not even know one end of it from the other.

There were several so damn STUPID that they even claim it is a DAO pistol. Anyone that damn stupid about the GUN THEY OWN AND CARRY has no business whatsoever in a gun safety "debate" and they also have no business carring it in public.

Anyone that fails to understand the simple concept of basic DA and SA design can not possibly understand a damn thing about the drop safety or lack of drop safety of the Steyr or any other gun so the "opinions" of these MORONS did not mean anything.

DA and SA is such a simple thing that I am sure it could be taught to and understood by the vast majority of first graders in any public school but it can't be understood by most TFL and high road posters.

Those that KNOW AND UNDERSTAND gun design KNOW that the Steyr IS NOT AS SAFE AS MOST OTHER MODERN DESIGNS.

They KNOW it is a SA with NO internal automatic safety device to prevent the fall of THE FULLY COCKED striker IF the sear fails so THEY would not carry one with a loaded chamber.

c5367

05-11-2004, 15:47

I knew it was only a matter of time before this tool showed up, add one to the ignore list

M96er

05-11-2004, 16:36

I'm in the camp of "Steyr is Safe" as well and I have full confidence in carrying my Steyr in a "mexican" style with a round in the chamber.(manual safety on of course;f )

Patricia

05-11-2004, 16:39

Originally posted by Cornbread2
You people have a lot to learn about gun design and I hope it does not take the death of someone you know to inform you that you don't know **** about the gun you carry.

The "debates" on TFL and the even more liberal and stupid High Road are some of the most lame and completly worthless waste of time and space that ever made the internet.

You had about three people that understood the Steyr design and at least 100 that did not even know one end of it from the other.

There were several so damn STUPID that they even claim it is a DAO pistol. Anyone that damn stupid about the GUN THEY OWN AND CARRY has no business whatsoever in a gun safety "debate" and they also have no business carring it in public.

Anyone that fails to understand the simple concept of basic DA and SA design can not possibly understand a damn thing about the drop safety or lack of drop safety of the Steyr or any other gun so the "opinions" of these MORONS did not mean anything.

DA and SA is such a simple thing that I am sure it could be taught to and understood by the vast majority of first graders in any public school but it can't be understood by most TFL and high road posters.

Those that KNOW AND UNDERSTAND gun design KNOW that the Steyr IS NOT AS SAFE AS MOST OTHER MODERN DESIGNS.

They KNOW it is a SA with NO internal automatic safety device to prevent the fall of THE FULLY COCKED striker IF the sear fails so THEY would not carry one with a loaded chamber.

First of all, Gt has very strict rules about other sites being bashed here. Both TFL and the High Road are fine sites and deserve more respect than that. Second, someone of your intelligence should have been able to ascertain that this is the Steyr Club. It is a place for fans of all Steyr weapons to get together and chat. You are welcome to join in, but I suggest that in the future, you refrain from calling anyone here, or on the other sites I mentioned, morons.

Cornbread2

05-11-2004, 18:19

By all means add me to your ignore list or just ban me completly.

I still will continue to speak the TRUTH about the Steyr pistol. If my so called BS saves one innocent persons life then my time will not be wasted.

Anytime anyone asks about the drop safety of the Steyr I WILL respond with what I KNOW to be the truth.

As far as insulting TFL and THR I am once again only telling the truth.

If one can not understand the simple concept of the basic difference between DA and DA they have NO idea how a handgun such as the Steyr works so they have no business discussing it's safety systems because they could not possibly understand them or it's lack of them.

The Steyr is one of the best pistols ever made for range work but they are not as safe as most other designs for carry with a loaded chamber and anyone that truly understands it's design and gun design in general HAS to agree with me.

I have PERSONALY seen what the Steyr is capable of. I know of it's dangers. Even if I had not personaly seen these things I would still know not to carry one with a loaded chamber.

Patricia

05-11-2004, 19:16

Originally posted by Cornbread2
By all means add me to your ignore list or just ban me completly.

I still will continue to speak the TRUTH about the Steyr pistol. If my so called BS saves one innocent persons life then my time will not be wasted.

Anytime anyone asks about the drop safety of the Steyr I WILL respond with what I KNOW to be the truth.

As far as insulting TFL and THR I am once again only telling the truth.

If one can not understand the simple concept of the basic difference between DA and DA they have NO idea how a handgun such as the Steyr works so they have no business discussing it's safety systems because they could not possibly understand them or it's lack of them.

The Steyr is one of the best pistols ever made for range work but they are not as safe as most other designs for carry with a loaded chamber and anyone that truly understands it's design and gun design in general HAS to agree with me.

I have PERSONALY seen what the Steyr is capable of. I know of it's dangers. Even if I had not personaly seen these things I would still know not to carry one with a loaded chamber.

Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of ignoring you and I don't ban people. I'd rather Eric didn't have to either.

Your opinion on other forums really isn't the issue. They will not be bashed on this site. Period.

Your opinion of Steyr pistols isn't the issue either. Calling other people morons because they don't agree with you is the issue. Members here are asked to treat each other respectfully if they wish to continue to be welcome guests here. By all means share your experiences with everyone, just don't call them idiots or morons if they don't happen to take your word as fact.

mrapathy2000

05-11-2004, 19:54

M96er

05-11-2004, 19:55

Originally posted by Cornbread2
The Steyr is one of the best pistols ever made for range work but they are not as safe as most other designs for carry with a loaded chamber and anyone that truly understands it's design and gun design in general HAS to agree with me.

I have PERSONALY seen what the Steyr is capable of. I know of it's dangers. Even if I had not personaly seen these things I would still know not to carry one with a loaded chamber.

Sorry, don't agree with you. Unless you have some documentation on a Steyr going full auto/accidental discharge which I have yet to see anywhere in this wide spread rumor(which has yet to produce any evidence), please save your post for the OX & Alex forum.;a

Hehe, I just noticed that Cornbread has a bunch of hostile posts towards the Steyr in other forums critisizing many features on the pistol that don't seem to be very valid. I think we have a Troll in our midsts............................

Cornbread2

05-11-2004, 21:04

Hehe, I just noticed that Cornbread has a bunch of hostile posts towards the Steyr in other forums critisizing many features on the pistol that don't seem to be very valid. I think we have a Troll in our midsts............................

The only thing I am critisizing the Steyr about is the FACT that they lack a very important safety feature that almost every modern design has and even a number of very old designs.

mrapathy2000

05-11-2004, 21:52

yet why are you focussing on only steyr pistols. plenty of other firearms lack firing pin safeties.

why dont you actively critize them?

Zundfolge

05-11-2004, 22:08

Originally posted by Cornbread2
The only thing I am critisizing the Steyr about is the FACT that they lack a very important safety feature that almost every modern design has and even a number of very old designs.

The argument is not whether it has a firing pin block, but whether it needs it.

I still contend (based on breaking down my own Steyr pistols, and based on the posts of Twoblink and tetchaje1 both on THR and TFL) that the pistol is stout enough that a firing pin block is not necessary because the conditions you're concerned will occur are impossible (without ripping the pistol apart).

Again, I'll state for the record that I have no problem with you posting in these threads concerning the safety of Steyr pistols, its only your "if you don't agree with me you're an f-ing idiot who shouldn't own a gun" attitude. Twoblink and tetchaje1 both posted data, facts, figures etc ... you post your opinion and back it up by again forcefully stating your opinion and then insulting everyone who doesn't agree with you.

Anyway, for you history buffs this is a long drawn out argument that I recommend everyone (who cares) reads themselves.

Just make up your own mind.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126530
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138673
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144739<- This one summarizes my position pretty well
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145050

tggt04

05-12-2004, 00:16

I think it is unlikely that a company would introduce a pistol in 1999 to compete with the GLOCK for their militaries use and accidentally forget about a firing pin safety if it were needed.

The Steyr includes a Manual safety, frame safety, trigger safety and loaded chamber indicator. Why would Steyr introduce a pistol that discharged when dropped?

Of course I am no expert in these matters... but, having completely stripped the M9 too many times to count, I fail to see how the firing pin could ever slip past the catch?

If I were a rich man I’d attempt to (safely) beat the hell out of a Steyr M-Series pistol to see if I could make it ‘fire’ accidentally… but then again, I am sure this was already done during R&D... no?

Cornbread2

05-12-2004, 07:07

Originally posted by mrapathy2000
yet why are you focussing on only steyr pistols. plenty of other firearms lack firing pin safeties.

why dont you actively critize them?

Some pistol designs do not need a firing pin lock because they use another type secondary system.

I would not carry ANY single action pistol without some sort of automatic safety device to stop the fall of the striker or hammer if the sear failed to hold it.

ALL single action pistols made today except the Steyr and junk guns such as the Jennings, Bryco and such have a safety device because it is needed.

This automatic safety device is not always a firing pin lock. The 1911 uses a hammer block safety AND a half cock notch to stop the fall of the hammer IF the sear fails. Later models have these features PLUS a firing pin lock.

The Springfield XD had a firing pin lock because it is needed to make it drop safe.

The Steyr depends too much on only ONE thing to make it drop safe. If it was a DAO it would be 100% safe without extra automatic safety devices but the fact is it is a COCKED SINGLE ACTION makes this secondary safety a must.

Cornbread2

05-12-2004, 07:23

[i]Originally posted by Zundfolge

I still contend (based on breaking down my own Steyr pistols, and based on the posts of Twoblink and tetchaje1 both on THR and TFL) that the pistol is stout enough that a firing pin block is not necessary because the conditions you're concerned will occur are impossible (without ripping the pistol apart).

It is far from impossible. Combine a slightly worn or out of spec sear along with a slightly looser frame to slide fit and a AD is not only possible but almost certian. It is FACT that there has been Steyr pistols leave the factory that were not in spec. I have seen them. I have tested them. I KNOW that they can fire WITHOUT A TRIGGER PULL. This is the very thing that a real slide mounted firing pin lock can and will prevent. That is what they are for.

Also it has been proven many times that the majority or Steyr owners do not know enough about their pistol to KNOW if the parts are in spec or worn so how do THEY know if their pistol is safe or not.

As far as Twoblink was he not the same guy who used his "logic" to tell us to leave our 5 speed cars parked on a hill in 5th gear to prevent them from rolling away. His thoughts may make sense on paper but they do not fit into the real world.

He was also very wrong on several points about how the Steyr functions.

noway

05-12-2004, 07:28

Cornbread, since you think ( opinions) that the steyr M/S series are so unsafe due to no secondary or primary safeties, have you taken this up with Steyr-AUS? I'm sure steyr a company that has been producing firearms for quite a few decades know what ssafe or not.

As inidcated when the TFL was actively running this subject, the sear would have to drop in order for the firing pin to strike the primer and the only way that would happen is for the trigger to be pulled. So the gun is drop safe.

Is the steyr M/S more safe than a other guns? Probably NOT. ( I could think of a few other guns that are more safe in design ( 92FS/1911/BHP/etc......) but all of these have some more complex designed safeties installed ) but are they safe if used correctly and maintain correctly, Yes.

btw: To all SteyrM/S owners please don't trust the foward pull down safety block as a real safety.

I can fire my M40 with this pulled down and enaged. It should be called a comestic or PC designed safety installed by steyr to please the massives.

This items in my opinion should be removed or redesign. The parts involved on mine has to much wear/play to properly prevent the trigger from being moved. So in a nutshell, test trigger disengagement with the forward-safety enage by trying to pull the triigger using the most force that you can apply. ( just make sure chamber is unloaded )

just my 0.02c.

Cornbread2

05-12-2004, 07:30

[i]Originally posted by tggt04

Of course I am no expert in these matters... but, having completely stripped the M9 too many times to count, I fail to see how the firing pin could ever slip past the catch?[/B]

If your Steyr is correctly built and ALL the trigger group parts and in spec and not worn it is not likely to have an AD unless something really bad happens to the pistol such as the slide being forced off the frame. But even then a firing pin lock would stop an AD if that happened.

BUT what happens if the sear or the tab on the striker breaks or becomes well worn?

What happens if the frame to slide fit becomes loose?

An AD can happen.

Again it could not happen IF they had a firing pin lock.

Cornbread2

05-12-2004, 07:35

noway

05-12-2004, 07:43

Good point.

BUT as with everything some things are more safer designed than others.

i.e

I bet a Hummer running into a brick wall, the occupant would be more safe from harm if they worn seat belts

vrs

Kia running into the same wall at the same speed with seats belts on.

But I wouldn't consider the KIA unsafe, just as not as safe as the Hummer.

;)

Every thing is prone to wear and damage causing items to be out of spec. Even my so-called drop free glock could develop excessive play or out of spec in it's safety.

Cornbread2

05-12-2004, 09:23

Originally posted by noway

Every thing is prone to wear and damage causing items to be out of spec. Even my so-called drop free glock could develop excessive play or out of spec in it's safety.

But your Glock could be out of spec but still be drop safe because it is not "cocked". Glocks are more or less DAO. The Glock striker is not cocked enough to cause an AD if the sear failed to hold the striker back where the Steyr IS. Plus the Glock HAS a firing pin lock.

This is an issue only with single action "cocked" auto pistols.

tggt04

05-12-2004, 13:45

Originally posted by noway
.
This items in my opinion should be removed or redesign. The parts involved on mine has to much wear/play to properly prevent the trigger from being moved. So in a nutshell, test trigger disengagement with the forward-safety enage by trying to pull the triigger using the most force that you can apply. ( just make sure chamber is unloaded )

Originally postey by Cornbread2
.
What happens if the sear and striker has the same wear/play as your manual safety?

The problem here is the drop-down safety is a chunk of metal vs. a small section of plastic on the upper portion of the trigger... the trigger will give and bend if enough pressure is applied. Initially quite a substiantial amount of force would be required, but once it's broke, it's broken for good (need a new trigger).

It's like anything though that requires some skill... when you are tightening a screw, do you tighten and tighten until you hear a "pop" and you know you have just stripped all the threads? If I were sqeezing that hard on my Steyr and it wasn't firing I'd immediately check that the safety was off...

But, I will agree that a metal trigger would have been a much nicer option... this concern would then not exist.
This is probably why Steyr is no longer including that safety on the M-A1 (it will be an option that costs $20 more?)

Now, if Steyr on their new M-A1 considered losing the safety... wouldn't they consider including a firing pin safety at this time as well if it was a concern??? They have had 6 years for complaints and concerns to accumulate.

The sear and stiker are metal on metal... the tolerance required to slip past it would require some deliberate destruction with a file. In fact, if the tolerance there were that great and did allow this... it would never cock in the first place :p

I think this post is getting long and no where... Steyr felt they didn't need one. Steyr was trying to make a superior pistol than the Glock and compete for the Austrian Army... If they felt a firing pin safety was not required I am sure they had good reason to come to that conclusion.

SturmRuger

05-12-2004, 13:48

I sure love beating dead horses.

Cornbread you sure love to go after this topic it must be your little pet project. I think all of us Steyr owners are waiting to hear a specific incident where a Steyr pistol fired when it wasn't supposed to. It hasn't happened yet, and I am sure it never will. Go ahead and keep ripping on this fine pistols I doubt you are convincing anyone.

Cornbread2

05-13-2004, 07:21

You guys just remember what I have been tying to explain to you for the last two or three years.

Sooner or later some of you may learn the hard way. I really hope no one you care about is hurt or killed because of your poor choice of carry gun.

Just because YOU have never seen a Steyr fire without a trigger pull does not make it impossible.

Since the Steyr has become so cheap they are selling at a much higher rate than before. There are more and more of them out there now and it is just a matter of time before someone is accidently killed with one of them.

Every time I have wrote about the Steyr all I get is BS mostly from people who have NO IDEA how the Steyr or any other gun works. I am called an idiot and a troll for WRITING THE TRUTH.

Now I have done my duty and tried to explain just how and why the Steyr should not be carried with a loaded chamber. Anyone with knowledge of gun design HAS TO KNOW that I am correct.

I know what I know and I know what I HAVE PERSONALY SEEN.

It is now all up to you.

Since I do not personaly know any of you or have to be around any of you while you are carring your Steyr no one I know and love will be harmed by you so I really should not give a **** about what happens to any of you.

It just would not be right for me to know what I know and not warn others about a very real danger that could eaisly be avoided no matter how I feel about any of you.

Patricia

05-13-2004, 07:24

Cornbread, yes, you've warned everyone. Now let it rest.

Cornbread2

05-13-2004, 07:27

Originally posted by tggt04

The sear and stiker are metal on metal... the tolerance required to slip past it would require some deliberate destruction with a file. In fact, if the tolerance there were that great and did allow this... it would never cock in the first place :p

Not correct. Newer Steyr pistols have very little sear engagement. Worn or out of spec parts along with a slightly loose slide to frame fit CAN AND WILL allow the striker to cock but still allow it to fall from being droped.

Cornbread2

05-13-2004, 07:28

Originally posted by Sidearmor
Cornbread, yes, you've warned everyone. Now let it rest.

It is rested. I am gone from the Steyr fourm.

flyandscuba

05-17-2004, 11:13

I feel completely safe carrying either my M-40 or M-357 with a round in the chamber. No disrespect to cornbread, but is sounds as if he is a man on a mission with an agenda in search of a problem.

Information that I've read about the design indicates that the firing pin is not completely staged -- but that the action of moving the trigger to the rear completely stages the firing pin prior to the sear disengaging and allowing the firing pin to move forward against the primer.

The new M-A1 is on the way -- at a point where a redesign could have been planned to correct any safety issues, I suspect that when we get our hands on one, the top end assembly and the metal frame components will be identical to the later generation of the M-series....only the polymer grip will be different IMHO. This should dispell any argument of a known defect in the design.

flyandscuba

05-18-2004, 16:56

I found this while researching in order to debate in the PMs with another member....

I think it says clearly the safety aspects of this design. I feel completely comfortable -- and safe -- carrying this pistol loaded....and as a CCW!

http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_45/ai_55605820

Ascaris

05-27-2004, 22:35

I have an exploded diagram of the Steyr M-series, but it is not clear exactly how the parts fit together in relation to one another.

Most people in this thread think that the design of the M-series is a safe one, but as much as I hate to agree with someone as abrasive and insulting as Cornbread2, I am leaning toward the "not safe enough for CCW" side.

It appears that there are two things that I find disturbing about the M-series design:

1. As carried with a chamber loaded, the firing pin spring is probably compressed enough to fire the primer from that position, should it be released.

2. Nothing would stop the firing pin from hitting the primer if there was a failure of the sear, or the firing pin nose.

#2 concerns me, because I have seen this happen on my Kahr K40. It has a similar design for its firing pin as the Steyr-- the firing pin spring fits inside the firing pin, coiled around a small guide rod.

The Kahr that had this happen was new; it had only a few hundred rounds through it. It manifested as a pop and a click when the trigger was pulled (unloaded-- I was dry firing at the time). No, it did not happen while the gun was holstered with a round chambered, but the fact that the failure did happen, and that if it happened in such a way that the remaining portion of the firing pin may have been able to set the primer off if it had happened while the gun was holstered, if it happened in a Steyr M-series.

I don't trust mechanical devices all that much. I like that the Glock's firing pin safety is there, and that the fiting pin spring is not cocked enough, while the gun is holstered, to set off the primer, even if the firing pin safety was not there.

I really like the feel of these guns, so this discovery is a disappointment. Can anyone tell me that if the firing pin nose breaks off while the gun is holstered, the gun won't shoot?

Frank

FThorn

05-27-2004, 22:39

why not load a steyr and put it in an empty paint can and into a paint shaker and leave it overnight?

flyandscuba

05-27-2004, 23:08

Sorry, not gonna happen. The only way for the sear assembly to "fail" and release the firing pin is for it to drop down. In order for the sear assembly to drop down -- thus disengaging the lug on the firing pin and allowing it to move forward and strike the primer -- is for the sear assembly to first move to the rear (before it is physically possible to drop down). This rearward movement of the sear assembly can only occur if the trigger is pulled to the rear -- as in firing.

The sear/firing pin lug interface is such that the only way for it to allow the firing pin to move forward is as described above, or if the lug from the firing pin or the sear interface to become sheared off. The mass and thickness of these materials appears to me that if would take a force far far greater than the typical drop from a holster to shear off these metal components. Personally, I'd think you'd need to drop it off of the roof of a building (or maybe even higher) onto a hard concrete surface to produce such an effect. This same type of force would most likely shear off any firing pin block safety too.

So, those who don't think the gun is safe -- don't buy it or carry it. As for me, I feel completely safe doing so.

c5367

05-27-2004, 23:36

Considering the construction of the Steyr, I'd say the likelihood of the nose breaking off the firing pin is about the same as that of the "nose" on the Glock firing pin breaking AND the firing pin safety being gummed up in the fire position. That is to say, not bloody likely.
If you take a look at the the schematic, there sear moves the firing pin rearward during the trigger stroke. I don't think there is enough tension to fire, even if there were a catastrophic mechanical failure.

Take a look at it this way, there are a number of LEO's and other professionals that carry 1911's with a 70 series firing mechanism(no firing pin safety). Whether or not the weapon would fire in the event of a catastrophic medh failure isn't even a question. Would any of them consider their pistol "unsafe"? If they did, they wouldn't carry it. You can argue "what if x" all day long. i.e. "what if the Glock firing pin safety spring is broken and you drop it on the muzzle and the flimsy little rails break???" In that case the Glock would fire. But is that anywhere near likely? About as likely as getting bit by a shark in Montana.

The simple fact is that virtually all unintentional discharges are the result of user error, which is why unintentional discharge is nearly synonomous with negligent discharge. On that front, the Steyr is almost idiot proof. One would far more likely to have a ND with a Glock or even a Sig then a Steyr, provided the manual safety is used. Without the safety, its essentially a Glock from a safety standpoint.

Would the Steyr be more safe with the addition of a firing pin safety? Well duh, yes. It would also be more safe if it were unloaded. The bottom line is that the Steyr is safe enough for carry, and any unintentional discharge would be the result of a loose nut behind the trigger.

Flashpoint

05-28-2004, 00:13

After removing the action carrier from the frame and playing with the trigger I have come to the same conclusion that flyandscuba stated in his last post. The only way I could see a AD happening is if the super beefy sear broke off instantly and posed no resistance to the firing pin. But if the sear was to break I believe that there would be too much energy lost in the breaking of the sear to hit the primer hard enough to cause ignition. On the other hand it seems to me that the sears motion when the trigger is pulled does nothing to cock the firing pin back any farther, the action looks more like a simultaneous back and down motion. So in that case the Steyr is not a DAO but a SA.