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Jeff82
04-26-2004, 07:20
Go here to see many gun articles in British Press

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/0,2759,178412,00.html

Jerry, can this be sticky for a while? I just checked it today (17 May) and it is being updated.

Rusty
05-10-2004, 13:55
That is just sad. You can't even protect your family in your own home over there. And If we don't watch out, we are heading in the same direction.

HBK
05-16-2004, 11:50
Also check out the book, Guns and Violence by Joyce Lee Malcolm. It details how England got so screwed up. :(

jmsfmtex
05-16-2004, 15:14
I certainly agree, that if people do not pay attention to what their elected officials are doing our gun priveleges will slowly be taken away. Make no mistake about it. IT CAN HAPPEN HERE.

Jeff82
05-17-2004, 07:20
For me the AWB/HiCapBan sunsetting is the bellweather test. There is absolutely no way that it should be reinstated or a new version put in it's place, knowing the following:

-The House has a strong pro-gun majority.
-The House is expected to become more "republican" (meaning incumbents and potential candidates would stay away from known decisive issues, like gun control).
-The Senate is just barely pro-gun.
-The Senate is expected to become more "republican" (meaning incumbents and potential candidates would stay away from known decisive issues, like gun control).
-The White House has been warned that if a new ban is in place in November, Bush will not have support of gun-owners. (He may be banking that GO will still vote for him due to the "War on Terror". I'm not one of them. If I can't defend myself and family here at home, another war somewhere else is a distant second concern to me.)
-The sunset requires NO ACTION. Politicians (and remember majority are pro-gun) have to go out of their way to bring about a new ban/reinstate an old one.
-Documented evidence shows the ban to be useless and only harms the law-abiding's Constitutional/Civil Rights.

If, in the face of what's outlined above, a new ban takes effect, that will demonstrate to me that We the People and our system of government are compromised and no longer working according to the US Constitution (I'm already convinced of this, the AWB is the "final straw"), that there are very strong "strings" manipulating our governmental processes and we are not in control of our own government. If that turns out to be true, there is only one way to take back our own government and that is, (short of massive civilian protest and I doubt you'll get the "sheeple" motivated) is the removal and replacement of the "professional" politicians.

Unfortunately, we Americans have been asleep at the switch so long and allowed the socialist/communist agenda to get into our schools, that the vast majority will sit and watch themselves be put into bondage so long as they get cable!

It truly is a shame (but has to come about to allow for the New World Order).

What happens when you separate yourself from God (and let me be specific, Jesus the Christ)? You go to hell.
America is separating itself from God. The country is on it's way...

;l I copied this posting into it's own thread, same forum.;l

big grip
05-22-2004, 17:13
I took this from my post on the CCW forum, figured it would go here well.

Here's a link, it's 46 pages in a pdf so you can save it to your hard drive.

http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publicati...y2000i/app4.pdf

You will want to check tables # 1, 6 & 25.

The US has a decreasing violent crime rate and the so-called "civilized" nations of the UK, Canada and Austrilia have raising violent crime. I noticed that the UK breaks out Scotland from England & Whales.

BTW, this is from a UN web page therefore liberals CAN NOT ARGUE with you about it.

spetsnaz777
05-23-2004, 21:47
Gun Crime can't exist in England. After all they banned them;Q

Coolknight
05-25-2004, 02:08
The Brits are paranoid about guns. Nothing new, they don't know crap about them either.

Regards,
Coolknight

Jeff82
05-25-2004, 06:10
Originally posted by Coolknight
The Brits are paranoid about guns. Nothing new, they don't know crap about them either.

Regards,
Coolknight
They do double-rifles exceedingly well. Not bad on shotguns too.

big grip
05-25-2004, 08:26
The tables I posted from the UN give you all the ammo you need to put a dumb antigunner in their place. Most are left of center, and will dispute your source. When you say it's from the UN have the camera read! It'll be fun.

The tables I listed clearly show that since guns have been banded in the UK crime has gone up. While CCW has expanded in the US crime has gone down. So who's the barbarians now?

Michael49
06-03-2004, 14:49
[I resent the fact that just because I do not believe in some super being that lives on a cloud and knows everything I am making this country go to hell "GET REAL"

Jeff82
06-03-2004, 19:40
Originally posted by Michael49
[I resent the fact that just because I do not believe in some super being that lives on a cloud and knows everything I am making this country go to hell "GET REAL"
"A swing and a miss..."
Strike one.

7.62mmFMJ
06-06-2004, 23:02
It would take an act of monumental stupidity to resurrect the ban on semi-automatic rifles, design-capacity magazines, and self-loading shotguns. The easiest and most expedient thing to do is nothing, and nothing is all it takes for sunset.

Jeff82
06-07-2004, 00:03
Originally posted by 7.62mmFMJ
It would take an act of monumental stupidity to resurrect the ban on semi-automatic rifles, design-capacity magazines, and self-loading shotguns. The easiest and most expedient thing to do is nothing, and nothing is all it takes for sunset.
I was talking to one of the vendors at a recent GSSF shoot and he is completely convinced that some form of backdoor wheeling and dealing/horsetradin' will go on that will result in the AWB being renewed. His thought is that this far to valuable to them to be able to let it go. Other more valueable (beauty is in eye of beholder) items will be threatened (again, in the beholder's eyes, this may include some "dirt" being let out) that would make the AWB seem to be the "smaller" loss.

Stinks any way you measure it. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

This is the position you end up in when people don't vote for "character".

Texas T
06-27-2004, 12:07
Originally posted by big grip
I noticed that the UK breaks out Scotland from England & Whales. Ahem... that would be Wales my good man. ;)

metallic
08-12-2004, 15:03
In case you have been looking for it, the pdf that big_grip linked to has been moved here (http://www.minjust.nl:8080/b_organ/wodc/publications/17-icvs-app4.pdf).

Coolknight
08-13-2004, 07:13
Just 7 hours for Police to respond to 911 call in UK!

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1147466,00.html

Of course the victims could not defend themselves!

As Chief Constable Peter Davies puts it...

"I am quite clear that it is legitimate to question
whether the response was quick enough but I am not
concerned that we got it wrong."

Gun crime is not only out of control in the UK but the
Police is staring to run out of lies to cover up the
mess that their "no handgun" "no self-defense" laws have
created!

Regards,
Coolknight

SgtKabar
08-25-2004, 12:26
At least the British authorities have realized that since criminals are going to shoot whomever and wherever they choose, the population should be trained in emergency first aid to deal with gunshot wounds until the ambulance arrives. Now that is comforting! Wouldn't you rather have a first aid kit than a Glock when the BG starts shooting people? The country has been turned into one big Luby's Cafeteria. The worst part is that the BG's are going to get so much practice shooting people that they're going to get better at it. Fool, Brittania, Brittania on it's knees (to the tune of Rule, Brittania).

Rebeldon
08-26-2004, 18:46
Originally posted by Rusty
And If we don't watch out, we are heading in the same direction.


Some states are already heading in that directions. Some states are heading away from that direction. Our country is very divided over this issue. Southern states are generally pro-gun and pro self- defense. How do you think they would react if a Northeastern and Kalifornia liberals manage to take away their right to keep and bear arms, or make it illegal to defend yourself in your own home?

metallic
08-26-2004, 18:56
Originally posted by Rebeldon
How do you think they would react if a Northeastern and Kalifornia liberals manage to take away their right to keep and bear arms, or make it illegal to defend yourself in your own home?

The last time something like this happened it contributed to a war that lasted from 1861 to 1865. I in no way believe something like that would occur if this scenario was to occur but it is interesting to see how history could quite likely repeat itself.

Ian
02-21-2005, 16:01
Well all I can say gentlemen, is that I am glad that I don't live in England anymore ^3

SgtKabar
02-25-2005, 04:03
Hey, Metallic,

Enemies Foreign and Domestic by Matt Bracken is a real good read about how stuff can spin out of control. It's fiction, but you'll find it a hard book to put down. Amazon has it or you can order directly from Matt Bracken at http://www.enemiesforeignanddomestic.com

RENEA
06-23-2005, 18:57
Why in the world would one need to learn first aid for gunshot wounds in England? Aren't guns illegal there? I'd have thought it would be all Mary Poppins , candycanes and buttercups from there out...;Q

theairdog
07-06-2005, 11:25
I hope that we never wind up the same way.

SgtKabar
07-07-2005, 07:51
So now the Islamofacists have attacked the public transport system in London, killing some and maiming many. Missing one or more limbs or faculties such as eye sight for the rest of one's life is one of the results of these kinds of bombings. And for those who were at the blast sites but not injured, the psychological wounds will never heal.

But now that the Brits have been completely disarmed, a citizen couldn't have stopped the bombing even if he'd seen what was going on. And the way Britain's justice system has been handling cases of self defense the "vigilante" who might have tried to stop the perps barehanded would most likely have been tried for "offensive conduct." What a sorry state of affairs in what was once a proud country.

Jeff82
07-08-2005, 18:51
Geez,

You'd think with over 100,000 cameras (just around London) and all the gun and violence control, Big Brother Nanny should've been able to safeguard the citizens of the realm! Of yeah, almost forgot, it's not interested in safeguarding, it's interested in controlling and suppressing...

:(

TommyT
09-07-2005, 14:59
Originally posted by Coolknight
The Brits are paranoid about guns. Nothing new, they don't know crap about them either.

Regards,
Coolknight

Hardly surprising considering most are illegal here. :)

My first post on here and I must say I am somewhat astonished with the ignorance some members of this forum view the laws of the UK. Many of you seem to try to compare the UK to what may or may not happen to gun laws in the US. In my honest opinion it's not really realistic to do this as the cultures are totally different.

Strict gun law in the UK finds it's roots in 1987, and a horrific incident in the quiet country town of Hungerford. SEE HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/19/newsid_2534000/2534669.stm)

Following that incident all automatic weapons were banned, with no exceptions.

Then on 14th March 1996 THIS HAPPENED (http://century.guardian.co.uk/1990-1999/Story/0,6051,112749,00.html)

Following that equally horrific incident all handguns were banned.

Now you as Americans certainly dont seem to agree with our laws, but equally, you dont seem to understand why they are there. We are a democracy and the new laws were universally popular and called for by the public.

I for one am not going to criticise your gun laws. You have the right to bear arms, and fair play to you, but please, oh please, don't criticise ours. They were introduced to protect the public, and for the most part are very effective. Contrary to what you might see on the news, gun crime here is very low.
How do I know this? Well, ok, time for me to tell you what I do. I am a police officer. It is true that most UK officers are unarmed, and nearly all WANT TO CONTINUE be unarmed. We are a civilian force and therefore police by consent of the citizens.

We do have firearms teams, and very effective they are too, but to be honest they are rarely needed (Although they are ALWAYS available)

Sure, bad things happen here, they do everywhere, but please bear in mind things are very different here. British people dont want guns everywhere. It's as simple as that.

I have spent a lot of time in the States (I have family in Texas) and I must say I love it out there, and I love the culture. I am comfortable around guns, indeed I use guns on a regular basis.
It may surprise some of you to know that hunting rifles and shotguns are legal here. I enjoy hunting, and do it on a regular basis.

The point of this post? I just wanted to maybe help some of you understand the reasons things here are like they are. I'm certainly not here to pass judgement on you or the use of firearms in your country.

Thanks for your time,

Tom.


P.S. Coolknight - A lot of us know quite a bit about guns actually

:)

TommyT
09-07-2005, 15:07
Originally posted by Jeff82
They do double-rifles exceedingly well. Not bad on shotguns too.

Took the words right outta my mouth! ;D

Ian
09-07-2005, 15:14
What????
You are not allowed to carry a pocket knife, you are not even allowed to carry pepper spray!!!
What nonsense.
My mother just came back from a stay in London, and was with her sister traveling on London Transport. She resisted having her purse snatched (like she did the year before on a London Bus) and the "gentleman" struck my Aunt around the face.
No one came to their assistance.
What a farce.
You have no right to protect yourself in the UK.

TommyT
09-07-2005, 15:26
Unfortunately you are showing your ignorance of English Law.

Everyone has the right to defend themselves. The legal definition is "with as much force as is reasonable in the circumstances". If that means a pre-emptive strike to prevent an attack on your person, then sobeit. As long as your actions can be justified, then you are allowed to use force.

You can carry a pocket knife, as long as it is not a lock knife or in excess of 3 inches.

It is true, you cannot carry pepper spray. Pepper spray is a class 5 firearm under English law. Police (including myself) carry CS or Pepper spray routinely.

I cannot comment on your aunts experience. I do not work in London. I work in a county police force, where all violent crime is dealt with the utmost importance.
In not saying the UK isn't violent. London, like any other large city in the world suffers with many violent incidents.

What has your aunt being mugged got to do with gun crime?

Did the attacker point a gun in her face (like what would be the norm in a major US city?) I doubt it.

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 15:39
TommyT, you are a prime example why i will never move to the UK. Oh, and pretty much the only people moving to your country are muslim terrorits. I'd still be speaking with a limey accent had my fore fathers been disarmed. Probably with a 60% tax rate also. You guys are our allies and friends but just don't get it about our 2nd amendment.

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 15:42
i wonder why all you europeans, besides the swiss, have no guns listed below your sig line? can you carry off duty?

TommyT
09-07-2005, 15:47
Originally posted by hokieglock
can you carry off duty?

No. I don't carry one ON duty either.

Don't get your 2nd ammendment? No, of course I don't. And you don't get our laws. That's my point. Our countries have differnt laws for their own reasons. Yours works for your country, ours works for mine.

I posted on here to maybe introduce some understanding as to why we have the laws we do, not to turn this thread into a slanging match.

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 15:50
Originally posted by TommyT

Did the attacker point a gun in her face (like what would be the norm in a major US city?) I doubt it.

no slanging?;z

TommyT
09-07-2005, 15:50
Originally posted by hokieglock
You guys are our allies and friends

Yes we are, and I for one am proud of that friendship. My younger brother is in Iraq with the army now, doing his bit. You mention the swiss, but are they your brothers in arms when the brown stuff hits the fan?

TommyT
09-07-2005, 15:52
Originally posted by hokieglock
no slanging?;z

ok, fair point. :)

I was just trying to prove a point. Badly. ;Q

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 15:53
correct, the swiss will just make watches and chocolate while we(the u.s. and uk) take care of terrorists. but it's gotta be cool to have a fully auto sig558(model #?)under your bed.

TommyT
09-07-2005, 15:55
Originally posted by hokieglock
correct, the swiss will just make watches and chocolate while we(the u.s. and uk) take care of terrorists. but it's gotta be cool to have a fully auto sig558(model #?)under your bed.

Does kinda have an appeal I suppose. Knowing my luck though, I'd blow my ears off. ;i

TommyT
09-07-2005, 15:59
Originally posted by hokieglock
Probably with a 60% tax rate also.

Not last time I looked at my paycheque! :)
We actually have one of the lowest income tax rates in Europe.

And it's great not having to pay for healthcare. ;f

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 16:02
i shall sleep much better tonight. especially with my G22 loaded with speer gold dots in my nightstand.;?

TommyT
09-07-2005, 16:03
Originally posted by hokieglock
I'd still be speaking with a limey accent

Trust me mate, the Yank birds LOVE IT when I'm over there. I have a much better "success rate" with the ladies in the US than I do at home, thanks to my accent. Gotta love them American girls! :cool:

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 16:06
weird, i do better abroad also. damn home grown chicks.

TommyT
09-07-2005, 16:08
Can't argue with that!! ;Y

Tell you what I do carry now - The surefire torch. What a fantastic bit of Yank engineering. Without doubt THE best torch I have ever used. Fantastic for area searches and a brilliant bit of kit!

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 16:11
^1 being in the military for a while i will say there are two people i could never drink with, brits and aussies.;f

TommyT
09-07-2005, 16:13
Originally posted by hokieglock
^1 being in the military for a while i will say there are two people i could never drink with, brits and aussies.;f


Yeah, we do like a drink, or 50. ;g

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 16:13
not even a gun in the "boot" of your car?

TommyT
09-07-2005, 16:16
No, certainly not. When off duty, firearms officers are subject to the same laws as the public. At the end of their shift their weapons (H&K MP5 and Sig) are put securely back into the armoury.

Like I said, I NEVER carry a gun, not even on duty. I am not a firearms authorized officer. Just a regular cop. Cuffs, CS and ASP is all I carry

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 16:18
i think i'll load a few 30rd mags for my ar15 on sept 10th, just in case.

TommyT
09-07-2005, 16:23
This may give you an idea of what it's like.....

4 years old now, but still relevent. SEE HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1443324.stm)

As an edit to that link, Tasers are now used by most UK police forces. At the moment they are only issued to firearms trained officers, but I can see them being generally issued in the future.

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 16:30
the best non-lethal force is racking of a 12 gauge pump shotgun. all kidding aside i think the book by dr. john lott would show you (not that you don't know already) that more guns does equal less crime. i guess us americans just like our guns.

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 16:32
that was a very interesting read. it's amazing with all our similarities that were still very different.

TommyT
09-07-2005, 16:35
Well, I'm not sure I'd agree with that, but hey, life would be boring of everyone agreed, wouldn't it?! lol!

Bed time for me. Maybe we'll continue with this later......

Good night. ;f

hokieglock
09-07-2005, 16:36
later

TommyT
09-07-2005, 16:36
Originally posted by hokieglock
that was a very interesting read. it's amazing with all our similarities that were still very different.


You've hit the nail on the head there my friend! Exactly my original point. :)

Ian
09-08-2005, 07:39
2 Questions please.
How would you expect a 75 year old lady to defend herself?
Do you honestly believe that if someone feels it important to protect their own lives, and the lives of their loved ones, and are willing to undergo psychological tests, and receive extensive training, they still should not be allowed to carry tools of self defense?

TommyT
09-08-2005, 10:55
Originally posted by Ian

How would you expect a 75 year old lady to defend herself?


What does this have to do with guns?

My own grandmother was mugged about 7 years ago. She was struck by a drug addict from behind who stole her bag to get his next fix.
The guy was caught by the police and imprisoned. Are you saying she should have been able to carry a gun, just in case Mickey Mugger might decide to pick her as his next victim? Absolute rubbish. Bad people target the most vulnerable members of society in every country, not just here. The difference is, you're much more likely to get mugged by an armed mugger in the US than you are here.

We did have the right to have guns here, although only for recreational use, not self protection. ALL weapons had to be kept in gun safes which were regularly checked by police during spot check inspections. If a hand gun was ever found on a bedside table, loaded and ready to go, the owner could expect a huge fine, loss of gun licence, and maybe even a stay at Her Majesty's hotel.
The reasons those rights were taken away have already been stated. It was deemed that the risks were too great.
So you don't agree with it. Fine. But it was a universally popular decision and it had the full support of the population. Like I said, you have your rules we have ours.

Like they say in the US, "love it or leave it"

To be honest I get sick and tired of people slagging my country off. If they don't agree with our rules, fine, don't come here. Just remember the ones who are always the first to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with America when it all kicks off, even when it puts us in the firing line of the terrorists. Why do we do it? Simple. It's the right thing to do.

Guns simply are not part of life for the vast majority of people in the UK and that is the difference. A good example of where the wheels fall off is the recent events in New Orleans. We've all seen the images on TV where criminals were engaging police and military in open street gunfights. Not a good situation, and one I am grateful we never see here.

Like I said, I'm not here to critise US laws. I love America. I enjoy visiting it, and find the people to be one of the warmest, friendliest bunch of folks anywhere in the world. I'm simply trying to set the record straight after reading some of the previous posts.

Tom.

Ian
09-08-2005, 11:12
What does this have to do with guns?
Everything.
If a criminal knows that the victim might be carrying a firearm, and/or able to defend themselves they will think twice before attacking.

I posted two questions, as I am interested in your opinion as a British subject, and police officer.
If you have the time, would you please answer them.

TommyT
09-08-2005, 11:14
Yeah, ok. I'll post later as I'm off out now.

UK Pro Gun
09-11-2005, 16:24
This one is VERY pro gun. A lot of my friends also would not only like their weapons back but the right to use them for self defense!

Tommy T:
The reasons those rights were taken away have already been stated. It was deemed that the risks were too great.
So you don't agree with it. Fine. But it was a universally popular decision and it had the full support of the population. Like I said, you have your rules we have ours.

The ban sure as hell didn't get MY support. No way was it a "universally popular decision".:(

The UK has changed forever and I don't think the gun laws, or the "rights to self defense" will ever change back. Time for my family and I to leave the country. Which is exectly what we are doing.

There are a lot of Brits who feel the same as I, hey some of them are living in the US right now ;? Don't think that all Brits are bleeding heart liberals who would rather talk to the BG's and try to see their point of view ;5 Talk maybe cheap but .45's are more cost effective ;)

:soap: :soap: :soap: :soap: :soap:

Off the box now, have a nice day. TTFN...

TommyT
09-12-2005, 14:14
[QUOTE]Time for my family and I to leave the country. Which is exectly what we are doing.QUOTE]

Bye then.

FYI, I'm not anti gun. As I have already said, I enjoy hunting. I have both a shotgun licence and a firearms licence.
I own a bolt action hunting rifle which I use to hunt deer, and a shotgun which I use in competitions.

Ian
09-12-2005, 14:17
So it's ok to shoot an inocent deer, but not someone intent on taking your life or your childs life?

TommyT
09-12-2005, 14:21
Originally posted by Ian
So it's ok to shoot an inocent deer, but not someone intent on taking your life or your childs life?

I give up.
Look, I didn't come on here to justify or argue the whys and wherefors of English law, I was just trying to inform people as to why they were implemented.

It's obvious I'm wasting my time. ;Q

Ian
09-12-2005, 14:26
I apologize.
I wasn't serious.
I just believe strongly in self defense.

TommyT
09-12-2005, 14:31
Originally posted by Ian
I apologize.
I wasn't serious.
I just believe strongly in self defense.

And so you should. So do I in fact.
However, what you must understand is that our cultures are very different.
You have the right to have a gun for self defence. For the US, and the way it has developed since conception, that right it is proportional and appropriate. For the UK, it isn't.

As I have stated, most of the police here don't have a gun! Ask yourself the question why that is....

Ian
09-12-2005, 14:37
Well before I left England, one officer I knew that was working in the Royal Mews, said that he wanted to give back his handgun. When I asked him why, he said that he hadn't received enough training.
I was shocked to find out that he only trained twice a year.;P

TommyT
09-12-2005, 14:43
Originally posted by Ian
Well before I left England, one officer I knew that was working in the Royal Mews, said that he wanted to give back his handgun. When I asked him why, he said that he hadn't received enough training.
I was shocked to find out that he only trained twice a year.;P


Believe me, it is very different now. British Police firearms teams are amongst the best, most highly trained anywhere in the world.

May I recommend the book "The good guys wear black" by Steve Collins.
A very good read which gives a good insight into SO19 (The Metropolitan Police's 'SWAT' team). Very interesting.

Ian
09-12-2005, 15:04
Thank you.
I will.

TommyT
09-12-2005, 15:07
Just checked - it is sold on Amazon.co.uk

A riveting read. ;f

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0099186829.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

SgtKabar
09-13-2005, 07:53
Hello, TommyT,

The press reports that your criminals did not disarm with the general population in the UK, and as a result, violent crime and gun crime have risen a great deal. Is this true? If so, how do the authorities plan to deal with this unanticipated, but predictable, consequence? Further, we've heard that a great many more Bobbies are now issued firearms for routine carry while on duty.

In the U.S., the police have no responsibility to respond to a citizen in distress. It seems that it's entirely discretionary, and many of our law enforcement personnel are engaged primarily in taking reports after the fact. Is this the case in the UK?

Finally, your borders seems to be nearly as porous as those of the U.S. If you can't keep uncountable kilotons of drugs out of the UK, how will you keep a couple of million guns per year out of the hands of criminals in your country?

Respectfully,

Ken Kabar

TommyT
09-13-2005, 15:11
Originally posted by SgtKabar
Hello, TommyT,

The press reports that your criminals did not disarm with the general population in the UK, and as a result, violent crime and gun crime have risen a great deal. Is this true? If so, how do the authorities plan to deal with this unanticipated, but predictable, consequence? Further, we've heard that a great many more Bobbies are now issued firearms for routine carry while on duty.

In the U.S., the police have no responsibility to respond to a citizen in distress. It seems that it's entirely discretionary, and many of our law enforcement personnel are engaged primarily in taking reports after the fact. Is this the case in the UK?

Finally, your borders seems to be nearly as porous as those of the U.S. If you can't keep uncountable kilotons of drugs out of the UK, how will you keep a couple of million guns per year out of the hands of criminals in your country?

Respectfully,

Ken Kabar

Some good questions, which I will answer to the best of my ability.
Naturally, the criminal element who had guns before the ban continue to have guns today. I wouldn't say gun crime has increased though.
In my 2 years as an officer I have not been involved in a firearms incident (that's not, of course, to say I wont.)

Bad guys who have always had guns, always will have guns.
It's interesting to point out that armed robberies (involving [real] guns) have decreased a great deal since their peak in the 70's.


Our responsiblies. Hmm perhaps it would be useful to show you the oath all officers must swear in front of a magistrate and cheif police officer to become a cop.......

"I , [Name], of [Town of residence], do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will to the best of my power cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law."

The oath is the same regardless of the force or if the officer is a regular constable or special constable (volunteer police officers (who have exactly the same powers as regulars))


When you say someone in "distress" I take it you mean someone in immediate danger or threat of attack?
If so, then yes, naturally we are duty bound to render aid. The key phrase in the oath is "prevent all offences against people and property"
As police officers we have a duty of care under the Human Rights Act to help people in distress (this obviously doesnt mean we'll pull out all the stops just because someone has missed the bus!)

As for the porous borders, yes I will agree things could be better. However we do have the advantage of being an island. I'm certainly not a Tony Blair fan (my vote is for the other guy!)The government are getting a hard time here because of illegal immigration and keep telling us they are going to improve things. That remains to be seen. The latest idea is to set up a national "border police." Like I said, remains to be seen, but I am sceptical.
As for the guns, well market force drive the imports. If the market is there then I suppose the importers will always find away. However, like I have said, the market really isn't there. Much more of a problem is knife crime. There seems to have been a recent explosion of knife crime in the UK. Most UK officers (including myself) wear kevlar body armour to counteract this threat. It's much more of a problem than guns.
That and street violence due to binge drinking. Friday and saturday night violence because of drink is bread and butter stuff to me. I'm convinced British cops deal with more "full-on brawls" and public order incidents than any other police service in the world. It is a truly national problem. I've turned into quite a slugger! ;f

Regards,

Tom.

TommyT
09-13-2005, 16:36
Looks like it's about to get even stricter..........

SKY NEWS (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13432616,00.html);Q

Hugh Neal
09-23-2005, 14:52
Well, here's my first post on this forum for a couple of years (sorry for being away for such a long time chaps!)

TommyT - I would guess that you are a copper from a rural area, not having come across gun crime in the last couple of years on the beat. I surmise that you are based somewhere out in the sticks.

I am an (after the gun ban) ex Glock 17 (serial no. AVB 820) owner based in North Kent / South East London, and I can tell you that unlicenced firearms, mainly from the former Communist countries are rife. I too would welcome the chance to carry a pistol for self defence - "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six".

TommyT
09-23-2005, 15:24
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
TommyT - I would guess that you are a copper from a rural area, not having come across gun crime in the last couple of years on the beat. I surmise that you are based somewhere out in the sticks.


Indeed I am, and very near you!;f

TommyT
09-23-2005, 15:30
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
I can tell you that unlicenced firearms, mainly from the former Communist countries are rife.

You don't need to tell me mate. I may be in the sticks, but I've not got my head in the cow pats! However, unless you take into account shootings in metropolitan areas, gun crime throughout the UK is minimal. As I have already said, knives are much more of a problem.

RENEA
09-24-2005, 10:14
Originally posted by TommyT
You don't need to tell me mate. I may be in the sticks, but I've not got my head in the cow pats! However, unless you take into account shootings in metropolitan areas, gun crime throughout the UK is minimal. As I have already said, knives are much more of a problem.

Perhaps a nationwide ban on them would solve that problem. Besides government butchers, doctors and the like why would a mere commoner need a knife?;f

TommyT
09-24-2005, 10:17
Originally posted by RENEA
Perhaps a nationwide ban on them would solve that problem. Besides government butchers, doctors and the like why would a mere commoner need a knife?;f

lol! Good point! ;f

(already is illegal to carry a blade over 3 inches. Lock knives and flick knives are banned)

RENEA
09-24-2005, 11:44
Originally posted by TommyT
lol! Good point! ;f

(already is illegal to carry a blade over 3 inches. Lock knives and flick knives are banned)

Well then... lets ban..SOMETHING! Beer mugs, golf clubs, pool cues....;f

TommyT
09-24-2005, 12:26
Originally posted by RENEA
Well then... lets ban..SOMETHING! Beer mugs, golf clubs, pool cues....;f


No problems with banning golf clubs (I hate golf), but beer mugs?! NO WAY! The Brits drink way too much beer for that to ever happen! That includes me! ;a
;V ;V ;V ;V

Hugh Neal
09-24-2005, 12:37
I agree TommyT - why on earth do Golfists need a bag stuffed full of so many different types of golf bats is beyond me. Why not just have a "one size fits all" model?

I would like to see real life "Rollerball" personally.

TommyT
09-24-2005, 12:44
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
[BI would like to see real life "Rollerball" personally. [/B]

Now that would be cool!
I assume the annual US - UK competition would follow domestic rules, whereby the Yanks come fully padded up (a la American Football), with personal assistants for all the players, huge salaries and gangs of groupies, and the Brits turn up from the pub, beer one hand, cigarette in other, no padding whatsoever and one fan called bob, who's bought along his Jack Russell. (a la rugby) ;f

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39513000/jpg/_39513412_tackle_ap.jpg

Hugh Neal
09-24-2005, 12:59
And we'd still win. No - one beats the Brits when it comes to alcohol fuelled violence.

For an example, check out this link to the Grudge Match website:

http://www.grudge-match.com/History/soccer.shtml

Okay it is versus the French, who are not exactly renowned for their martial expertise, but it gets the point across!

TommyT
09-24-2005, 13:15
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
And we'd still win. No - one beats the Brits when it comes to alcohol fuelled violence.


Very true!

That link was brilliant btw! ;f

Hugh Neal
09-24-2005, 13:24
The site is closed to new submissions now, but there is some classic stuff (Star Trek's red shirted security ensigns vs Star Wars stormtroopers in contemporary down town LA - hilarious; and what can compare to a Dobermann vs a Dobermann's weight in Chihuahas!)

Do surf the site, it is geek heaven - and it really helps if you have loads of 80's / early 90's TV knowledge. See how many times Mister T gets a mention.

BTW, UK Pro Gun is a mate of mine - he really is leaving the country so that he can shoot - and I will be going over to visit him to do the same (he is hoping to have a range on the land he is buying). You should see where he currently lives; unconventional is not the word - but it is up to him if he wants to go into details.

TommyT
09-24-2005, 13:26
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
BTW, UK Pro Gun is a mate of mine - he really is leaving the country so that he can shoot - and I will be going over to visit him to do the same (he is hoping to have a range on the land he is buying). You should see where he currently lives; unconventional is not the word - but it is up to him if he wants to go into details.

Fair enough. It it means that much to him, I wish him all the best. ^1

TommyT
09-24-2005, 13:30
P.S. Was at Bluewater today. I hate big shopping centres, but the missus seemed to feel the need to drag me around there all day.
Thinking about it, anyone got a gun I can borrow?! ;f ;I
ROFL!

Hugh Neal
09-24-2005, 13:40
Bluewater? Don't you mean Chavwater? Seal all of the exits and fill the place with nerve gas.

Except the Apple store. I cannot go near the place if I have my wallet with me (I am a professional Alpha Geek and an OS X and Linux specialist).

I reckon you are Essex plod. BTW I work with an ex Special Branch Superintendant who is now head of Security for my company (and his claim to fame is that his cousin is the "Desperate Housewives" actress Nicolette Sheridan).

Sad but true.

TommyT
09-24-2005, 13:43
Originally posted by Hugh Neal

I reckon you are Essex plod.


Good guess, but nope, try again! ;a

TommyT
09-24-2005, 13:50
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Bluewater? Don't you mean Chavwater? Seal all of the exits and fill the place with nerve gas.


Not my favourite place in the world either. ;z

Hugh Neal
09-24-2005, 13:50
Nah - it doen't really matter. BTW I used to be a member of Stone Lodge range, and I still have some quite collectible items of clothing, including two "Hard Glock Cafe" T - shirts in white on blue (that's what the clubhouse burger bar was called) and an immaculate black satin bomber jacket professionally embroidered with the Glock logo on the front right hand side in gold thread, and with the words "Glock - Drastic Plastic" in silver and gold thread on the back. I gather these are quite rare, and I could probably get a few bob on Ebay for it. I was told at the time that these jackets were normally only issued to Glock certified armourers, though I reckon this was probably flannel.

Hugh Neal
09-24-2005, 14:14
Here it is!

Hugh Neal
09-24-2005, 14:16
And one of the front....

UK Pro Gun
09-24-2005, 14:49
I'll give it 5;)

Don't flog it on Ebay, unless your going to buy another Glock with it ;)

Anyway is this thread going off topic ;m
Repeal the nasty UK firearms laws and let law abiding citizens have a fighting chance. Ah there's the rub, law abiding "citizens" :soap:

Hugh Neal
09-24-2005, 15:04
Don't forget that we are NOT citizens. To be a citizen you need to be a member of a republic. We are member subjects of a constitutional monarchy.

Still - I presume that you have read the earlier bits of the thread and seen what has been going on.

I recall the comments made by the firearms officer at Forest Hill Police station when I had to hand my Glock 17 in for destructon on the 3rd July 1997 (incidentally my birthday) - he said that now it would only be the bad guys that would be armed, and how prophetic that turned out to be!

Anyway, did you like the photos of the jacket?

UK Pro Gun
09-24-2005, 15:10
Great photo's, ;c

Keep the jacket as when I move you will be able to wear it properly ;) ;I

Hugh Neal
10-15-2005, 10:42
Have you noticed that the UK Government proposes putting even stricter controls on air guns? In future they will only be supplied by registered dealers and there will be no option to purchase by post. They are basically making air weapons as hard to own as shot guns. I think they will probably be made illegal in a few years at this rate.

TommyT
10-16-2005, 07:40
Yep, it certainly looks that way

Hugh Neal
10-16-2005, 08:08
It just astounds me how we are bing led into a complete Nanny State and no-one seems to mind. I mean, there has been little debate or protest at the proposed ID card bill. I for one will not carry one out of general principle. The technology to make 100% reliable biometric identification is still 5 - 7 years away at the current rate of development; the government's own figures estimate that if implemented now, there would be an average of 6000 mis-identifications per DAY. And anyway, why should I have to prove who I am? The first action Hitler did when gaining power was to issue ID cards to all Germans; it made the later rounding up of Jews and other "undesirables" much easier. Let's face it, ID cards would not have stopped the 7/7 bombers would it? Rant over (for now!)

Pigsy
10-16-2005, 17:25
Originally posted by TommyT
I give up.
Look, I didn't come on here to justify or argue the whys and wherefors of English law, I was just trying to inform people as to why they were implemented.

It's obvious I'm wasting my time. ;Q

no you are not.

it is a simple difference,

the US get to blast crap out of all.

the good old british bobby, we talk our way out of trouble.

stabbed,possibly? shot no. guns are still a new toy here,

Brit cop who is an AFO./so 19/afu/ with a county force

TommyT
10-17-2005, 09:40
Originally posted by Pigsy
no you are not.

it is a simple difference,

the US get to blast crap out of all.

the good old british bobby, we talk our way out of trouble.

stabbed,possibly? shot no. guns are still a new toy here,

Brit cop who is an AFO./so 19/afu/ with a county force

^c

Good man!

I like your signature by the way! Good old Section 5 Public Order Act eh? Marvellous bit of legislation! ;f

swampsniper
11-17-2005, 16:27
You cannot expect to increase individual self discipline by expecting less of it from individuals. Where do you expect the UK to be in 25 years, so long as you continue to restrict the freedom to abuse freedom, as solution to abuse?
When you begin to solve your rape problems, I will be sure not to be visiting!

SgtKabar
11-17-2005, 20:31
More's the pity, you blokes. Kubrick's prophetic A Clockwork Orange looms. But fret not, the colonies will catch up in due course.

Hugh Neal
11-19-2005, 01:46
Two unarmed female Police officers were shot whilst investigating a robbery in Bradford (Yorkshire, Northern England) yesterday. Details here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/4451508.stm

Comments?

swampsniper
11-19-2005, 02:56
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Two unarmed female Police officers were shot whilst investigating a robbery in Bradford (Yorkshire, Northern England) yesterday. Details here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/4451508.stm

Comments?

Not to be disrespectful, but, **** happens! I don't know how passing any more laws will help, but I expect you Brits will have a try!
How about bringing the power of the ASBO up a notch? Just imagine, the "SUPER ASBO"!

Hugh Neal
11-19-2005, 03:18
Swamsniper - this might be a common occurrence in the US, but in the UK it is front page news - on TV they even broke into regular programming with news flashes. TommyT is correct that it is not something you see very often. A cop was murdered by an ex - US Marine a couple of years ago, and when the BG was sentenced was told he would NEVER come out of prison. Gun crime is spreading rapidly in the UK, and there seems to be nothing to be done to stop it; when the hand gun ban came into force eight years ago, the Police officer who confiscated my G17 and equipment said that from now on, only the bad guys would be armed - and how prophetic that was!

Freddo
11-22-2005, 06:48
From another site...

[Article] UK to ban reloading components.
postamble: We have received the following article printed by the Yorkshire Post:


Gun loophole is closed by mother's campaign
Tools to produce homemade ammunition for firearms to be included in new anti-crime bill
Simon McGee
Political Editor
THE LEGAL loophole that allowed the killer of Leeds police officer Ian Broadhurst to produce home-made bullets is set to be shut tight by MPs today after a tireless campaign in Yorkshire.
Ex-US Marine David Bieber was jailed for life last December for gunning down the 34-year-old policeman in cold blood on Boxing Day, 2003, and firing at two other officers using a pistol loaded with ammunition made from components that had been bought completely legally.
The purchase and possession of ready-made ammunition without a firearms licence is illegal, but, as the Yorkshire Post revealed last year, no licence is needed to buy bullet presses, cartridge cases, primers and powder over the counter.
During Bieber's trial, Mr Justice Moses said it was "completely barmy" that the killer had legally bought a Dillon RL550 bullet press and re-loader from a Hertfordshire gunshop that he had used to manufacture thousands of bullets in a home-made weapons factory in a Leeds lock-up.
PC Broadhurst's mother Cindy Eaton – backed by the Police Federation and PC Broadhurst's MP, Batley and Spen's Mike Wood – launched a high-profile campaign in the Yorkshire Post for a ban on the unrestricted sale of bullet-pressing kits and primers – the essential mini-detonators which set off the propellant in a round.
Following Bieber's conviction, the MP called directly on the Prime Minister to change the law.
His pleas are set to come to fruition today, as MPs give their final approval to the Violent Crime Reduction Bill, which will make buying components subject to the same restrictions as buying firearms.
Clause 28 of the Bill will make it an offence to sell primers to anyone without a firearm licence and Clause 29 will ban cartridge and bullet presses.
Ms Eaton said last night: "We're thrilled at the progress that has been made and look forward to these measures becoming law.
"It's nice to think that something like this can come of Ian's death and that a loophole we weren't aware of previously can be closed."
Mr Wood was delighted that what he called a "lethal historical anomaly" would finally come to an end and that Ms Eaton's successful campaign may well have prevented someone else falling victim to home-made bullets.
"Enacting legislation can be a long and drawn out process – often it has to be – but these restrictions on bullet-making components are well worth the wait," he said.
"The Bill should change the law so the components of ammunition are treated in the same way as firearms."
The Violent Crime Bill also tackles the possession of knives, the availability of replica guns and the establishment of alcohol disorder zones in which licensed premises would have to contribute to the additional policing and local costs of alcohol-induced crime.
West Yorkshire Police Federation chairman Tom McGhie – representing rank and file officers – praised the success of Ms Eaton's campaign on what he called an absolutely ridiculous lack of controls.
"We believe it's totally right that people cannot legally buy the sort of equipment that he used to assemble bullets," he said.
"Bieber made literally thousands and it was always disgraceful that there had been no control on the materials and machines to make these sorts of bullets.
"It's quite right that this ban should be in place."

swampsniper
11-22-2005, 10:31
Freddo,this leaves me speechless, but only because I don't want to be banned from the forum!

Hugh Neal
11-27-2005, 06:04
On top of that, there is serious talk from the UK Government that they want to increase the licencing requirements for air guns to the same level as shot guns. This will make a majority of .177 and .22 air weapons illegal (anything with over 12lb/ft already requires a full Firearms certificate). Basicallly the only kind of gun permitted fairly readily in the UK is a single or double barrelled shotgun - and to get one of these you need to have "good reason" (farmer or clay pigeon shooter) and be subject to a couple of police home checks - at least that was how it was before the 1996 total handgun ban - TommyT can no doubt confirm any changes.

Oh - and another thing - the UK is due to host the 2012 Olympic games; none of the Modern Pentathalon events can be held here, as they require .22 pistol shooting; fullbore pistols of all types are completely illegal here, so I don't know how they are going to deal with events including shooting.

TommyT
11-27-2005, 06:36
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
On top of that, there is serious talk from the UK Government that they want to increase the licencing requirements for air guns to the same level as shot guns. This will make a majority of .177 and .22 air weapons illegal (anything with over 12lb/ft already requires a full Firearms certificate). Basicallly the only kind of gun permitted fairly readily in the UK is a single or double barrelled shotgun - and to get one of these you need to have "good reason" (farmer or clay pigeon shooter) and be subject to a couple of police home checks - at least that was how it was before the 1996 total handgun ban - TommyT can no doubt confirm any changes.

Oh - and another thing - the UK is due to host the 2012 Olympic games; none of the Modern Pentathalon events can be held here, as they require .22 pistol shooting; fullbore pistols of all types are completely illegal here, so I don't know how they are going to deal with events including shooting.


Hugh is correct. To get a shotgun licence in the UK, the police first have to carry out full criminal record checks and visit the person in his home. Anyone wishing to have a shotgun will need good reason. Regular licencing spot checks are also carried out after a licence has been issued to ensure compliance with legislation regarding storage and security at the premises.

As for the pentahlon events at the 2012 Olympics, Hugh raises an interesting question. I don't know what they have planned. I do know that British competitors for these events have had to train outside the UK, in Europe, prior to competition.

mitchshrader
12-02-2005, 00:12
that is to say, the british method of gun control is logically, actually, contrary to the stated goals of less violent crime.

wrong.

for you. not because i say so. because it removes the responsibility for self defense from the individual and places that on the state..

which is incompetent.

not YOUR state particularly. but any state.

self defense is 'SELF' .. not government. government isn't THERE.

so it's wrong. badly misguided. Stark Raving Loony. over the top.

as is the attempt to do similarly here (a few places) .. it Don't Work.

thank you, btw, for PROVING it don't work. keep it up another 10 years, if you please. better'n it being US that pays that price.

Tempest UK
12-07-2005, 09:37
First post here :)

In regards to 2012, I beieve (I could have sowrn I heard this but I can't be certain) that although certain teams have had to travel abroad to train, events that reguire "illegal" firearms will still be permitted to take place. I can't see us striving so hard ot get the Olympics to be held here then decide to write off several events.

On a more general note, as it has been said before, despite the similarities between US and UK culture, the two can't be compared when it comes to gun control. If legislation was passed today allowing the same or similar firearms laws as the US, it would not be a good thing for the UK. It would be introducing something totally foreign into our culture, and it would be immediately exploited by criminals and opposed by the vast majority of the general public.

I myself would like our attitudes to guns to be closer to what it is in the US, but it just isn't practical. If I ever moed to the states, as I would one day like to do (not based on the gun control) then I would certainly choose to own firearms. On that note, for those in the know, where would I stand in regards to purchasing and possibly carrying a firearm in the US if I had moved there from abroad, assuming I had become a full US citizen etc? Would it be any different to someone who had lives there all their lives?

Gun control in the UK IS getting stricter, and now a bill has been passed banning the import, sale and manufacture of replica firearms (this includes items such as deactivated firearms, but leaves air rifles and shotguns untouched). So, soon, toy guns won't be legal, let alone "real steal" weapons.

Regards,
Tempest

TommyT
12-07-2005, 14:00
Originally posted by Tempest UK
First post here :)

In regards to 2012, I beieve (I could have sowrn I heard this but I can't be certain) that although certain teams have had to travel abroad to train, events that reguire "illegal" firearms will still be permitted to take place. I can't see us striving so hard ot get the Olympics to be held here then decide to write off several events.

On a more general note, as it has been said before, despite the similarities between US and UK culture, the two can't be compared when it comes to gun control. If legislation was passed today allowing the same or similar firearms laws as the US, it would not be a good thing for the UK. It would be introducing something totally foreign into our culture, and it would be immediately exploited by criminals and opposed by the vast majority of the general public.

I myself would like our attitudes to guns to be closer to what it is in the US, but it just isn't practical. If I ever moed to the states, as I would one day like to do (not based on the gun control) then I would certainly choose to own firearms. On that note, for those in the know, where would I stand in regards to purchasing and possibly carrying a firearm in the US if I had moved there from abroad, assuming I had become a full US citizen etc? Would it be any different to someone who had lives there all their lives?

Gun control in the UK IS getting stricter, and now a bill has been passed banning the import, sale and manufacture of replica firearms (this includes items such as deactivated firearms, but leaves air rifles and shotguns untouched). So, soon, toy guns won't be legal, let alone "real steal" weapons.

Regards,
Tempest

At last, someone who talks with some sense.
To be honest I'm totally bored with most on here b itching about our way of life in the UK, when in fact, most have absolutely no idea about life here. You don't like it? Fine, don't come here, you wont be missed.

Tempest UK
12-07-2005, 14:21
To be fair, you have to have really grown up here to understand it. Because it has been such a core part of the USA since it came into being, the right to bear arms is taken for granted. So when someone in the US looks at the UK, it will obviously seen totally alien to them.

If I had the power to do so, I would make the law more flexible for sport shooters (eg so our Olympic pistol shooters can train here, and make it easier for others to get into the sport). I'd hesitate to do so, but I would perhaps increase the number of armed police.

I'm a keen airsofter (airsoft replicas being the only way for me to really satisfy my interest in guns) and so the Violent Crime Reduction Bill banning such replicas has really hit me hard. Knee jerk legislation if I ever saw it. So again, that could, in my eyes, be changed.

As for a feeling of life here in relation to the need to carry a gun: I have very rarely felt threatened in public to the point where I felt the need to defend myself with anything more than my trusty pair of legs to run away, and if need be my feet and fists.

Interesting to have read your contributions to the thread, Tommy T, especially considering you're career :)

TommyT
12-07-2005, 14:31
Originally posted by Tempest UK
To be fair, you have to have really grown up here to understand it. Because it has been such a core part of the USA since it came into being, the right to bear arms is taken for granted. So when someone in the US looks at the UK, it will obviously seen totally alien to them.

If I had the power to do so, I would make the law more flexible for sport shooters (eg so our Olympic pistol shooters can train here, and make it easier for others to get into the sport). I'd hesitate to do so, but I would perhaps increase the number of armed police.

I'm a keen airsofter (airsoft replicas being the only way for me to really satisfy my interest in guns) and so the Violent Crime Reduction Bill banning such replicas has really hit me hard. Knee jerk legislation if I ever saw it. So again, that could, in my eyes, be changed.

As for a feeling of life here in relation to the need to carry a gun: I have very rarely felt threatened in public to the point where I felt the need to defend myself with anything more than my trusty pair of legs to run away, and if need be my feet and fists.

Interesting to have read your contributions to the thread, Tommy T, especially considering you're career :)

I totally agree mate. I am a keen hunter (generally deer) and also seem to spend my life shooting at clays! ;f I hold both a shotgun and firearms licence.
It just frustrates me with the attitudes on this site. All I read is "self defence" and it is getting somewhat tiresome. I only really started to post on here in the hope of somehow trying to pass on a balanced view on why things in the UK are the way they are.
Ultimately and unfortunately, I have failed. You can't win 'em all ;Q

In the meantime, I'll continue to go out there and do my bit for queen and country :)

12-13-2005, 16:04
Hiya. Interesting thread. I hope we can all maintain our respect for one another and continue the discussion dispassionately.

I wanted to add an anecdote: Seems a writer - a "gun guy" - was mugged some years ago while, of all things, taking out the trash! When confronted by his Friends who basically asked, "HEY!! You're a GUN GUY!! WTF?!?", he replied that he was only taking out the trash, and didn't think he'd need a gun. What came out of that was that you carried a pistol when you didn't think you'd need it...it was an emergency contingency. If you had reason to believe you'd need to be armed, you'd bring two rifles and a shotgun, and all your friends who had guns, preferably with pissy attitudes. The pistol was for just-in-case-but-I-don't-really-think-so occasions - basically, all the time.

Hey, Brits: Thanks for sticking by us.

KY-Midnight
12-17-2005, 18:33
I just read on that site an article by some guy who said that arming the British police would INCREASE the risk to them. I find this mind boggling.
While I understand that you gentlemen (and ladies) have a different attitude from Americans towards firearms, crime, hunting, and self defence that is cultural, I still find it impossible to comprehend how arming the police, especially the female officers that are made the point of the article, would make it less safe for them by "increasing the expectation of violence". That seems like someone saying "if I keep my eyes closed, nothing else will exist"!
I really want to visit the UK someday, indeed, I'd like to visit most of Europe, but I won't do it because of the attitude toward firearms there. Probably seems singleminded and maybe even slightly crazy to some people.
I'm an American, bred and raised in Kentucky, in a place where you may go hundreds of miles and only see a few dozen homes. This breeds self reliance. I cannot imagine trusting that if I needed help that someone would just pop out of no where and "save" me. I suspect that in the UK, you would be hard pressed to find ANY place that is as remote as what a large portion of America is. Americans who live in places not so sparsely populated, take this mentality with them too.
I guess it comes from hacking our way out of a forest only a few hundred years ago. An environment that still readily exists today. I don't think the UK has been like that for many many more centuries, so people are more used to being able to depend on others. That and every one from the UK I've ever met was very nice and friendly :) not something I can say for Americans (I'm sure you guys have your share of buttheads too though)
Back to my original point though, do you honestly think that police being equiped to handle more dangerous situations would make it less safe for them (and the people they are trying to protect) or was this guy way off in your view as well?
Thanks mates

TommyT
12-18-2005, 09:20
Originally posted by KY-Midnight

Back to my original point though, do you honestly think that police being equiped to handle more dangerous situations would make it less safe for them (and the people they are trying to protect) or was this guy way off in your view as well?
Thanks mates

No, not at all. I'd have no issues with being given a gun, but my point is it isn't wanted or needed. True we do have our buttheads, the same as anywhere else, but as I said before, the widespread distribution of guns does not exist here. Knives are much more of a daily threat.

To say our police are not armed is not actually true. We have many armed units called ARV's (Armed Response Vehicles) who are readily available should they be needed. They are armed with both handguns and semi-automatics.

Ask UK police officers if they want to be armed, and I can assure you, most will say no.

mitchshrader
12-18-2005, 10:39
i'd like to see a lot more unarmed policemen here, given they're in non threatening jobs.

i feel that would be highly sensible.

i also feel that were firearms 'will issue' (for purposes of self defense, specifically, in the UK) .. in other words, if you CLAIM you need one, (and barring any history of antisocial violence).. you should have one.

and that applies, IMO, to police officers too. i certainly don't think they MUST have them. I merely think the single right of armed self defense is essential to the liberty on which civilization rests.

as that is unsupported culturally in the UK, it is my thesis that liberty will erode substantially, obviously, and ongoingly as a result.

let the evidence speak, my opinion is irrelevant.

TommyT
12-18-2005, 13:18
Originally posted by mitchshrader

it is my thesis that liberty will erode substantially, obviously, and ongoingly as a result.

let the evidence speak, my opinion is irrelevant.

What rubbish!

We have never had the right to bear arms in this country, yet we seem to have managed to get by over the last couple of thousand years quite nicely without any "liberty" issues, thank you very much.

You talk of liberty, yet you live in a society where a policeman practically has one hand on his sidearm and has to bark orders from a safe distance when he does a routine traffic stop, for fear of getting shot.

If that's liberty, you can keep it!

12-18-2005, 17:27
Originally posted by TommyT
What rubbish!

We have never had the right to bear arms in this country, yet we seem to have managed to get by over the last couple of thousand years quite nicely without any "liberty" issues, thank you very much.

You talk of liberty, yet you live in a society where a policeman practically has one hand on his sidearm and has to bark orders from a safe distance when he does a routine traffic stop, for fear of getting shot.

If that's liberty, you can keep it!

Well, now... Seems to me that your bar is set pretty low, Tommy. If all that you need is a few thousand years of simple history to demonstrate that a society is getting along just fine, then I guess most of Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe also qualify as "getting by quite nicely"...famine, genocide, pestilence, pogroms and political upheavals aside. However, I believe most Americans would like something more than that, thank you very much, which is why the tea hit the harbor in the first place. Most of us...at least those of us of the ilk that participate in venues like this...would be loathe to passively sit still for a destiny which placed us under the yoke of Communism, for example, and the direction that our Liberals would lead us in recent history has us going in exactly that direction. Passive acceptance, for many of us, is not an option although we respect that that may be the answer for you. Note that I said 'respect'...not 'admire'. I wouldn't presume to shove a gun into your hands and make you behave in a way I believe to be in your best interest, and I would trust that you'd show me the same courtesy. Similarly, I won't ridicule your choice...

As for you never having had a Right to bear arms in your country, well, that's not exactly true. That Right (or more accurately in your case, 'privilege') was enjoyed by your 'Betters'...your 'Superiors'...those members of your society whose personal safety was more valuable to the King and who were expected to bear arms in their own, society's and the King's defense. Those of you of the "lower classes" weren't deemed worthy of needing arms, and so that privilege was never extended to you. When this country was created, it was done on the basis of there being no 'better class'. Hence the phrase "...all men are created equal...". As a result, at least theoretically (which is the demon we're struggling with currently), no category of American should enjoy Rights not available to ALL Americans.

But, this being America, we'll work it out. And we'll continue to flourish as a result of our struggles. And we'll be there for you...with our guns!...when you need us.

Tempest UK
12-19-2005, 09:45
Dear Friends,

I would urge you not to label the English as spineless liberals with no interest in the direction of their country.

If I were to take up residence in the United States, I most probably would choose to own a firearm, and then, depending on my location and circumstances, a CCW. I would also bitterly defend the right of all (...) Americans to do so, as you would.

However, I do not live in America. Whilst we lack a "right" to bear arms in Britain, we also lack a history of a media spawned fear of communism, and other imperceptible evils which though we cannot put a name to, we believe we can keep at bay by tucking a pistol into out belts when we drive to work. We are two countries that came into being quite differently, and sadly a great many people have still not realised this.

What I'm trying to say is: I support your right to keep and bear arms one hundered percent, and if asked to stick myself at one particular end of the relative spectrum, I would deem myself "pro-gun". However, that does not mean I think my own country should categorically have the same right. This may be hard for you to understand. I don't expect you to.

Kindest regards,
Tempest

TommyT
12-19-2005, 14:43
Originally posted by Ektarr
Well, now... Seems to me that your bar is set pretty low, Tommy. If all that you need is a few thousand years of simple history to demonstrate that a society is getting along just fine, then I guess most of Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe also qualify as "getting by quite nicely"...famine, genocide, pestilence, pogroms and political upheavals aside. However, I believe most Americans would like something more than that, thank you very much, which is why the tea hit the harbor in the first place. Most of us...at least those of us of the ilk that participate in venues like this...would be loathe to passively sit still for a destiny which placed us under the yoke of Communism, for example, and the direction that our Liberals would lead us in recent history has us going in exactly that direction. Passive acceptance, for many of us, is not an option although we respect that that may be the answer for you. Note that I said 'respect'...not 'admire'. I wouldn't presume to shove a gun into your hands and make you behave in a way I believe to be in your best interest, and I would trust that you'd show me the same courtesy. Similarly, I won't ridicule your choice...

As for you never having had a Right to bear arms in your country, well, that's not exactly true. That Right (or more accurately in your case, 'privilege') was enjoyed by your 'Betters'...your 'Superiors'...those members of your society whose personal safety was more valuable to the King and who were expected to bear arms in their own, society's and the King's defense. Those of you of the "lower classes" weren't deemed worthy of needing arms, and so that privilege was never extended to you. When this country was created, it was done on the basis of there being no 'better class'. Hence the phrase "...all men are created equal...". As a result, at least theoretically (which is the demon we're struggling with currently), no category of American should enjoy Rights not available to ALL Americans.

But, this being America, we'll work it out. And we'll continue to flourish as a result of our struggles. And we'll be there for you...with our guns!...when you need us.

But don't you see? You're saying exactly what I've been saying all through this discussion! You have your way, we have ours. Neither is better or worse than the other. Our respective countries have developed in the ways which work best for them.

The frustrating thing for me is to read on here (not from you Ektarr) that people who have no idea about life in the UK, our laws or the way we operate, have the audacity to say that our liberty will in someway be erroded because we do not have the right to have guns. That is what I was referring to as rubbish. I'm sorry but it is.

The UK and the US have always been the strongest of Allies. When it comes to support and fighting together, the US has no closer friend than the UK. We have a long and happy history together, and long may it continue. As I have stated before, I love the US. I have family in Texas and I enjoy visiting them.
I just wish some on this forum would stop having such a blinkered view on why the UK is like it is.

TommyT
12-19-2005, 14:48
Originally posted by Tempest UK
Dear Friends,

I would urge you not to label the English as spineless liberals with no interest in the direction of their country.

If I were to take up residence in the United States, I most probably would choose to own a firearm, and then, depending on my location and circumstances, a CCW. I would also bitterly defend the right of all (...) Americans to do so, as you would.

However, I do not live in America. Whilst we lack a "right" to bear arms in Britain, we also lack a history of a media spawned fear of communism, and other imperceptible evils which though we cannot put a name to, we believe we can keep at bay by tucking a pistol into out belts when we drive to work. We are two countries that came into being quite differently, and sadly a great many people have still not realised this.

What I'm trying to say is: I support your right to keep and bear arms one hundered percent, and if asked to stick myself at one particular end of the relative spectrum, I would deem myself "pro-gun". However, that does not mean I think my own country should categorically have the same right. This may be hard for you to understand. I don't expect you to.

Kindest regards,
Tempest

*in best House of Commons voice* HEAR HEAR! ;f

TommyT
12-19-2005, 15:03
It may interest you to know that even pepper spray / CS is illegal to own here. Under English law it is a class 5 firearm.
The police in the UK (including myself) routinely carry it and it is used to good effect when required.

12-19-2005, 17:57
Originally posted by TommyT
The UK and the US have always been the strongest of Allies. When it comes to support and fighting together, the US has no closer friend than the UK. We have a long and happy history together, and long may it continue.

Agreed. And while it may seem vaquely disloyal, I must share a humorous memory with you...

I spent 3 years in Berlin, Germany (back in the mid-60's, when it really counted!) and served alongside many Allied forces, including members of the British Security Group. One evening in a favorite International watering hole's men's room, I happened to witness an American G.I. . . . regrettably of the lower order, and deep into the bottle by this time . . . make fun of a somewhat smallish soldier, one of Her Majesty's Royal Highlanders, in his kilts. I believe there was some comment about a man not wearing a skirt. Well, by the time the smoke cleared it was evident that Men do, indeed, occasionally wear such garments and had what it took to demonstrate the fact as well. I believe that particular soldier has, to this day, a remarkably different view of kilts and the men who wear them proudly.

Just thought you'd enjoy that.

TommyT
12-20-2005, 14:22
Originally posted by Ektarr
Agreed. And while it may seem vaquely disloyal, I must share a humorous memory with you...

I spent 3 years in Berlin, Germany (back in the mid-60's, when it really counted!) and served alongside many Allied forces, including members of the British Security Group. One evening in a favorite International watering hole's men's room, I happened to witness an American G.I. . . . regrettably of the lower order, and deep into the bottle by this time . . . make fun of a somewhat smallish soldier, one of Her Majesty's Royal Highlanders, in his kilts. I believe there was some comment about a man not wearing a skirt. Well, by the time the smoke cleared it was evident that Men do, indeed, occasionally wear such garments and had what it took to demonstrate the fact as well. I believe that particular soldier has, to this day, a remarkably different view of kilts and the men who wear them proudly.

Just thought you'd enjoy that.

Indeed! Marvellous! ;f

Jocks are as mad as a box of frogs, but my god, do they make awesome soldiers. Hard as 'kin nails.

It's a well known fact that a large proportion of the SAS is made up of Scotsmen. It must be something in the mountain water up there!
;I

JackBurnham
12-20-2005, 16:08
I have been wondering how the UK could become so messed up. But reading these posts from Englishmen enlightens me.

How can you guys endorse these politics by saying it's your way?

Some facts:

Since guns were banned, gun violence has risen sharply (Shouldn't it be zero now?)

OC spray is illegal (although it does no permantent damage). Even carrying a large flashlight or a heavy bunch of keys can be be construed as an "offensive weapon". Carrying a pocket knife will get you in jail for 5 years or more.

Women are therefore advised not to resist a rapist.

Self defence is illegal, only running away is allowed. There are numerous documented cases including:

- A woman being convicted because she put barb wire on her property and a burglar hurt himself.
- An elderly woman being convicted because she scared off a burglar with a replica gun.

So basically it's like Christmas for the perps, who can do as they please. They can break into a home and don't have to worry if the homeowner is there. For the unlikely event of being caught, they can be sure to only get a slap on the wrist from a court which thinks uncorrigible felons can be rehabilitated.

As violence is rocketing upwards, the sheep are living in fear and therefore readily accept that their rights are being revoked by the government. I don't only mean the right to keep arms. I refer to obscenities like searches of houses without a warrant, video surveillance everythere (which does no good), general eavesdropping and wiretapping of ALL phone lines and Internet communication, curfews etc. Sounds like sci-fi, but the majority of these measures is already in place or at least discussed.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize where this is leading. But one has to be a moron not to. Maybe you should read 1984 from George Orwell, who's real name was George BLAIR. Subtle irony here, just like your prime minister Tony Blair.

But perhaps I shouldn't expect a monarchy's subjects to value things like independence and responsibilty for oneself .

Feel free to bash me, I just believe that law abiding men and women should have the right to own and carry firearms and to defend themselves against assaults.

Tempest UK
12-20-2005, 16:36
Dear Jack Burnham,


You are, quite simply, wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

Yes gun crime has risen. And yes, keys can be seen as an offensive weapon. As can a rubber chicken, a lemon, or indeed a well seasoned pork joint if it is being carried with the INTENT of being used as a weapon.

Carrying a knife will not get you in jail for 5 years, I carry a knife on me almost every day, and I am quite within the bounds of the law when doing so. In England, we are not allowed to carry a locking knife, or a fixed blade without good reason to do so (self defence not being such a reason). We can, however, carry a sub-3 inch, folding slipjoint as and when we wish. So, I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of this seemingly mandatory term of 5 years, or if one should be so misfortunate, even more? At least take the effort to gather knowledge on the subject before attempting to be condescending.

And thankyou, sir, for taking the time to truly appreciate our judicial system, law, and law enforcement. Truly, the posting of an idiot. We do have a right to self defence, using reasonable force. Shooting someone who stole your hat does not constitute reasonable force. But, of course, you have your mighty "documented cases", so clearly I am wasting my time and should merely lay down now on my pitiful English soil and await my slow, liberty lacking death.

Not advised to resist a rapist? I am assuming the person from whom you heard this advice was not in a state known as "sober". I refer you back to "reasonable force", which in the case of rape, goes a long way.
To paint a picture of my country being a rampant haven for criminals is rich.

As for your reference to 1984, that is not ironic.

But hold on. I think that (perhaps) after trawling through such a deformed, sickly post as yours, I feel that I have seen the light. Yes, I must own a gun. That will solve all these make-believe problems, and they shall vanish into thin, free, richeous American air. Right. How does not owning firearms in any way indicate we have any less respect for our independence and individual responsibility?

But please. Come to England. Break into our houses. No really, go on. I'm sure the police won't mind, nor will the owner of the property. You'd look nice in a jail cell.

I can only hope that this post has been as arrogant, uninformed and depressing as yours was.

Kindest regards,
Tempest

JackBurnham
12-21-2005, 12:03
Dear Tempest UK,

Originally posted by Tempest UK
Carrying a knife will not get you in jail for 5 years,

You're right, it's only 4 years, but I'm sure that'll change.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lincolnshire/3586978.stm
And I do mean a fixed blade or folder - that's a knife. For opening letters, I have a letter opener. I need to cut wood for example. But thanks for informing me that you may actually carry a 2.5" toothpick or similar.

Originally posted by Tempest UK

But please. Come to England. Break into our houses. No really, go on. I'm sure the police won't mind, nor will the owner of the property. You'd look nice in a jail cell.

Indicating that I might break into a house only reflects the rhetorical state of emergency you're in.

Instead of fabricating Originally posted by Tempest UK
arrogant, uninformed and depressing posts you might consider trying to explain with reasonable arguments, why law abiding citizens shouldn't be allowed to possess guns for sport shooting, self defence, collecting or whatever lawful purpose that comes to mind.

Are you so terribly afraid of an inanimate object or of your fellow citizens, who obey laws by the letter?

Please take a look at nearby Switzerland, that should be possible even in case you're a shortsighted person (which I don't believe).
In Switzerland, citizens may buy as many firearms as they please, including (with a special permit) fully automatic weapons. And the militiamen (ordinary men who once were in the army) have to keep their state-issued assault rifle along with .223 ammunition at home. We're talking here about half a million FA rifles that easily penetrate most body armour. And guess what: There are WAY less violent crimes, gun crimes and murders in Switzerland than on your disarmed island. There are only two possible explanations:
a) Guns are not bad and should therefore be allowed for law abiding citizens
b) the Swiss are a whole lot more peacable, reasonable and responsible than Englishmen.
Feel free to choose an answer.
And kindly explain to a slow-witted fellow like me why you don't think your government can trust you with guns, or an evil OC spray.

Best regards,
JackBurnham

Tempest UK
12-21-2005, 12:26
First off, I'm anything but "afraid" of guns. I have a keen interest in firearms and always have, and am in the process of applying for a shotgun certificate.

As for knives, for cutting, may I suggest an axe? And why exactly would you feel the urge to cut some wood walking down the street? If it's for your job, then we can carry a locking knife, fixed blade etc for that purpose just the same as you could, and know we are well within our rights to do so. Whenever I believe I have a need to do so, I will carry a locking knife on me, but in all other cases a SAK or my Spyderco UKPK is more than enough for everyday tasks.
Being stopped by a PC and being found to have a locking knife on you will not result in said PC throwing you in jail fo 4/5/100 years. Having been in this situation myself, I am fairly sure of this, as this is how I came to be familiar withthe specific knife law regarding the carrying of locking blades. However, if you go about stabbing people with a knife, (a la the linked BBC article) then a hefty jail term is wholly appropriate.

Rhetorical state of emergency? That is of course what I indicated by poking at your unfounded and uninformed claims.
Why shouldn't we be allowed to posses firearms for sport shooting? Ahem...we are. Why shouldn't we be allowed to collect them? Because I'd say that 90% of our population has no desire whatsoever to do so. Again I raise the issue of culture, interests will vary from country to country - you in America may find collecting firearms attractive, yet most people here would not. It isn't a problem.

The Swiss. I'd say they are just naturally more "peaceful" than the Englih. Yet far, far more so than you Americans. Your point is somewhat hypocritical. Find another. In addition, where, exactly, did I state, or otherwise imply that guns were "bad"? They are not, and whenever a gun related crime arises for discussion here, I will be the first person to challenge the view that guns are to blame. The gun is the method of murder, the man is the maker.

Maybe our government doesn't "allow" us guns because they are just pure damn evil. Maybe. Maybe they put too muh faith in our law enforcement. Perhaps. But you and I both know that is a question better directed to our members of parliament than I.

More to the point: do we, the lowly Englishmen, need guns or pepper spray?

Kindest regards,
Tempest

JackBurnham
12-21-2005, 12:47
Originally posted by Tempest UK
More to the point: do we, the lowly Englishmen, need guns or pepper spray?
Not you put your foot in it. We may argue whether you need guns. Your women would surely need some OC spray, or are they supposed to fight off a 200 pounds felon with their bare hands?

But that's not the question. One may argue you that you don't need:
- golden watches
- cars which go more than 70 mph (or whatever is allowed in your country)
- a property larger than xxx acres
or even
- private ownership of means of production

But in a free country like ours, WE decide what we need. And not the government. Actually, I don't need a lot of the things that I own. But should I be forbidden to buy them because some politician who thinks he's on the moral high grounds says I have no need? Hell, NO.

Thanks again for informing me that you may use (hand)guns for sports shooting. That's a new one for me.

And as one member's sig reads: "It's not the bill of needs, it's the Bill of Rights"

Best regards,
JackBurnham

Tempest UK
12-21-2005, 13:01
JackBurnham,

It's a good point you raise, and to be honest I'm not sure where I stand on the issue of OC spray.

However, we both live in a free country. And you'll find your politicians do indeed take the moral high ground and dictate what you can and cannot own.

I'm sorry to inform you that, to the best of my knowledge, handguns are not allowed for sport shooting. This is one area in which I will outright say that I do not support our government's stance. Whilst I don't think the answer should be to totally legalise all firearms to anyone displaying a passing interest in owning one in order to greater facilitate sport shooting, I think current legislation should be adapted to allow a wider range of shooting sports, as it is a healthy and rewarding activity that an be enjoyed in total safety. In that respect, we a pretty much limited to shotguns and rifles after the proper documentation is received.

Kindest regards,
Tempest

JackBurnham
12-21-2005, 13:32
Alright, your words now seem halfway reasonable to me.
Our views are not as far away as I have previously thought. If you added some tiny things to your last post we could even agree. Armed self defence when reasonable and neccessary as well as guns for anyone with a lawful interest in them come to my mind. But for starters, it's more than fair enough.

I'm glad you don't completely approve with your governments position on this issue. Having an interest in firearms and GlockTalk, you are about the only one left in the UK who might support gun rights.

With all the best wishes for your liberty,
JackBurnham

Tempest UK
12-21-2005, 13:45
Good to see we can see eye to eye ;f

It's not the concept of using firearms for self defence (or anything else) that I don't agree with, only when it is applied to my country in that state that it is currently in. At the moment, drastic changes to our firearms policies aren't the answer. A few years down the line, maybe, who knows. A slow, controlled introduction to the use of firearms for self defence could work, but to do so public opinion would need to change a great deal, as many people simply couldn't justify carrying a firearm for self defence. And, at times, this includes myself.

If fate had had me born in the USA, you could quite surely find me owning a good few firearms (Glock 21 being the object of my affection here :) )and a CCW. In England though, at this time we're not ready for such changes. Changes to allow shooting sports, however, we are every bit ready for, and I wish we could be afforded that, but thanks to Blair we are not.

Kindest regards,
Tempest

Pink Floyd
12-26-2005, 12:25
Since UK firearm laws outlawing handguns were introduced in 1997, gun crime has more than doubled.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

I suppose that is a "coincidence", isn't it? ;Q

Brown Hawk
12-29-2005, 13:18
Originally posted by Tempest UK
Dear Friends,

...
We are two countries that came into being quite differently, and sadly a great many people have still not realised this.
...

Kindest regards,
Tempest

Tempest, according to the history of England and Great Britian as I learned it, the freedoms evolved as a result of the yeomen and their long bows being able to take out obnoxious noblemen, noblemen and their power being able to tell the king off (Magna Carta), and the king being able to use the yeomen and nobles as necessary to keep his power (YES, HUGELY SIMPLIFIED.) The point being that British freedoms were developed because people had weapons, and that was how British development was different than that in Europe.

When the gun came in, and the longbowmen went out, the commoners (yeomen) started losing their rights. And that was something our founding fathers saw, and was a major reason for the second amendment. To keep government in line as well as self protection.

As for the loss of freedom issue, where you don't see it, we see something else. FOR EXAMPLE: Your law allows the use of REASONABLE force in self defense. We see that as a loss of freedom, because reasonable is decided by someone after the fact who wasn't there. So a woman who protected herself against a rapist by spraying him with oven cleaner instead of the window cleaner five steps further can be prosecuted. That to us is a HUGE, HUGE loss of freedom.

Another example: Something bought with the INTENT to use it for self-protection. To us, that is the government telling us what to think, and that we can't think about self protection of what to do if something happens. Again a HUGE loss of freedom, as someone is deciding not only what you did, but what you thought, and making it a crime.

Now these examples may be overboard to you, but follow me for a minute. We start out with guns are bad, then restrict the guns, then register the guns, the outlaw the guns, then make self-protection iffy, then make other weapons (knives)bad, then etc. We see a trend, and it's one that scares us, because we see the start of it here. And it is a historical trend that has been repeated over and over.

Maybe you don't see it that way, but we do. So it's not really not "bashing" the British, (at least not too much:) ), it's trying to point out a frightening trend, and the British are the ones following that trend right now. So they're the current example available.

A couple more points. You said that most people agreed with the bans. But did they? And if they did, did they have full information? In other words, when the automatic weapons slaughter happened, was it just that that was broadcast, like our media here? Or was there some people asking what would have happened if some law abiding people with guns had been there? Have you even asked yourself that question?

I think that there are two quotes that fit the situation. The first is Lincoln, "You can fool most of the people some of the time."

The second quote is "Tell a big enough lie, often enough, and it will be believed." Goebbels. (Sorry to bring up that ++++, but even a ++++ gets it right once in a while.)

And that's the other point. We think that you've been pounded on so long that you're conditioned in that point of view. And that scares us even worse. You didn't used to be a disarmed society, as we read history (and all your murder mysteries;f ). And now you say that you haven't been. That is true, in that it was never as pervasive, but it was there, and people could protect themselves.

As far as feeling that the English are "wimps", we don't. Any people who can produce four men who are willing to jump on and smother a bomb with their own bodies, as those four did on that subway, may produce some wimps, but it also produces MEN. So here's to TommyT and all the others (here and there) who are willing to put it on the line. ;Y And may the MMQB (Monday Morning QuarterBacks) rot in you know where.

Hawk

Tempest UK
12-29-2005, 13:58
Brown Hawk,


Whilst you make a good point of our origins, the use of longbows then is not nearly as recent as the emergence of the United States - just because we used weapons then does not mean we have to latch on to that and preserve it many hundreds of years down the line.

Also, a point about "securing our freedoms" through the use of weapons that I, and a great many others I know of think the Americans have taken "wrongly" (for lack of a better word)is that freedoms may be won with weapons, but the weapons were only there as a requirement of the conflict of that time. After a war or a battle has been won, and the rights of whatever body of people have been secured, those people are in peace; they can put down their arms and enjoy the same rights. So we developed our freedoms with weapons, but that doesn't mean that we now STILL need weapons to continue those freedoms.

Loss of freedom: you have pretty much summed it up there, we see it differently. "Reasonable force" has recently been a hot topic for debate within British politics, with many calling for a clearer definition (which I would be all for). But this seems to somehow give the impression that, in Britain, whenever someone defends themselves, they will be prosecuted and the criminal lives happily ever after. It's simply not true. A lot of people on these forums also seem to be getting the impresion that our country is a haven for criminals, which again is simply not true (far less true of Britain than of the USA).

I believe most people did agree with the bans, and whilst there were obviosly those who held firearms (it was generally for target/sport shooting, not SD) who opposed the ban, most did not. Again, our countries were and are very different - even before the bans, guns were far less a part of our culture than in the US, so even when we had the choice to own firearms, the majority of us did not.

Much of the rest of what you say, I simply disagree with; it is just a matter of opinion.

The trend itself is frightening; but I couldn't care less about the way it has outlawed guns, except in the cases of sport shooting I mentioned earlier. I collect knives, and the negativity towards them in the media and the government is discomforting. I also enjoy airsoft, and frequently attend games, and as such I bitterly opposed the replica weapon ban, but to no avail. I hope this illustrates that it is not a case of me not caring about my rights, or what the government dictates I should do, but simply that in the case of guns , I do not believe we should have the same rights as you do. In the case of airsoft, whilst I will continue to oppose the decision to ban them whenever I can - it got through parliament without ammendments, and I shall respect that. Whether you like it or not, that bill was passed under the wings of democracy, and I and other airsofters are in the (tiny) minority in our opposition to it.

"Tell a big enough lie, often enough, and it will be believed." Goebbels

I could equally apply this to you, and the constant repetition that you need guns to defend your rights, liberty, the life of yourself and your families from nasty nasty invading communism that there is no evidence of, and other such things. It doesn't make it true, just as it doesn't when applied to us.

Kindest regards,
Tempest

Brown Hawk
12-29-2005, 15:42
Tempest,

I wasn't trying to convince you, just trying to explain some of why we feel the way we do about your gun laws. After all, you are trying to explain yourselves to us. My point on the long bows is that the freedom of your country and mine evolved because of the ready availability of weapons caused the freedoms to evolve more peacefully. The peasants of Europe didn't, and much of their freedoms came through revolution. (Again a simplification.)

As for the weapons keeping us free, we go back to the founding fathers, who started the whole idea. It was their feeling that freedoms would be lost without constant vigilance. And the freedoms would be lost to their own government, not foreign invaders. As a nation, we still don't trust the government. Even most of our liberals don't when it comes to THEIR rights. (Ask Robert Kennedy Jr. about the propeller farm off the coast of his property.) They just think they know better than us how to spend our money.

Loss of freedom: yes, they were extreme examples, but I made them that way to make the point. And the point is WHO decides? I could be wrong here, but we look at a law and ask, "What would my worst enemy do with this law?" If I am reading you right, (and please correct me if I am not,) you ask "What would a reasonable person do with this law?" We don't trust govenrment to be reasonable, and we think that we have pretty good historical evidence to back it up. Including Lord Acton [sp?] and his "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely."

As far as defending ourselves from the invading commies, the Japanese, Germans and Soviets were worried about that according to their own documentation. Most of us aren't. It's more a matter of where will they stop if they take this away? The constant vigilance thing. If they don't get to the beach, they can't make a beachead. The banning of Airsoft is something we see as a taking away of freedom. It is hurting no one, it costs people who aren't involved nothing, and can be a lot of fun. But now a majority has decided it's bad, and a harmless minority is being oppressed. You may not agree with that specific interpertation, but you are fighting the ban.

You don't see weapons as necessary to protect your freedoms, and we do. I think the difference comes in the fact that Britian has long been a homogenous country, with people born there raised the same way with the same beliefs. Here, many people, many ideas, raised and taught differently. Some without the English respect for law, as their laws were harsh and unjust. Without respect for life, etc. So the self defense aspect is more readily visible here. Your police could remain unarmed as most criminals felt they would be treated right there, and both sides can "understand" each other. (Bad way to put it, but I'm not sure how else to put it.)

We don't see that the need of guns to defend freedom as a lie. Our history and other's would give good evidence for that. In fact, most of Britain's history seems to run counter to that of other nation's in this regard. Maybe it's the exception that proves the rule. ;f

On of my history teachers had a favorite story of WWII. A German officer and a Swiss officer were talking one day. The German says to the Swiss.

"We have you surrounded. If you upset us, we can invade you with an army that has twice as many men as you have people. What would you do then?"

And the Swiss replied, "We'd all shoot twice.";a

We're not going to agree, and that's fine. I am using this to try to understand your point of view, and explain ours. Probably, the best we can get to is that you're not wimps waiting to be used as dishrags, just different, and we're not paranoid gun nuts, just different. And not that different. After all, we still stand by each other when the SHTF.

Best wishes, (gotta be a little different;) )

Hawk

Tempest UK
12-29-2005, 15:55
That's fine, you've given the best explanation in this thread so far :)

I've said it earlier in this thread, but should I ever decide to live in America (something I've given serious thought, can't accuse me of being against all things America ;) )then I would exercise my right to bear arms, for some of the reasons you have pointed out. It's just that those reasons don't apply in the same way to England. You were reading me right, and yes, we do (generally) trust our government more than you might, hence why you can't apply the same reasoning to Britain that you do the US.

We'll just agree to disagree then, having now voiced our opinions (nice story by the way :cool: )

Brown Hawk
12-29-2005, 16:36
Tempest,

Agreeing to disagree is good.

But another question on the same topic. Does the influx of immigrants, legal and illegal, seem to be changing things? Over here we hear that they don't want to assimilate, which could change your society. Also, is the increase in gun crime related to that, or is the "normal" British criminal using guns more?

And yeah, there's a couple of assumptions there, which you are free to correct.

Best wishes

Hawk

P.S. Glad somebody appreciates it. The professor only told it about twenty times;Q. (But it did make his points.)

PPS Where's Bucks? Can't find it on the map.

Tempest UK
12-30-2005, 07:24
I'm sure the increased immigration has had an impact on gun crime here, though even if the "high-ups" new this for sure, they would be far too PC to even suggest such a thing ;Q

I'm sure it's a similar situation in some circumstances in the US, but to even hint at immigration being a problem here will have you branded as a far-right extremist/racist. So when it comes to gun crime, such things rarely get proper consideration or investigation.

As for Bucks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckinghamshire
Even more information that you could possibly be interested in reading :)

Regards,
Tempest

Brown Hawk
12-30-2005, 13:24
Originally posted by Tempest UK
far too PC to even suggest such a thing ;Q

Regards,
Tempest

Same problem here. I guess it's going to take some people getting killed to stop this PC crud. They search little old ladies, but not the most likely. ;Q

Thanks for the link on Bucks. I was thinking it was a little further from London. And I thought it was a county, but wasn't sure. My map didn't really show the counties. Looks like a nice place to visit.

Hawk

TommyT
12-30-2005, 14:01
Originally posted by Brown Hawk
Looks like a nice place to visit.

Hawk

It is! Just like the rest of the UK! :)

We are lovely really, honest! ;f

Brown Hawk
12-30-2005, 15:44
Originally posted by TommyT
It is! Just like the rest of the UK! :)

We are lovely really, honest! ;f

I'll buy that.

But if your worst job is to break up drunken brawls, and it happens every week, maybe you really DO need to outlaw beer mugs.;b

Sorry, that was just a little too easy!

Stay safe, and maybe I'll get there one of these days.

Hawk

KY-Midnight
12-30-2005, 17:14
Just to point out my very American opinion, but on a comment that was made earlier about the British not having the right to keep and bear arms. I have to disagree, you HAVE the right, as it's not a governmental given privilage, it's a right, given to you by God, gods, nature, or whatever you choose to believe in (another of your rights) the fact that the majority have surrendered your right, doesn't make it any less your right. Just harder to enjoy, and potentially unpleasant.
As for the other comment made earlier about not having said right, and having gotten along swimmingly (sorry, I don't know how to quote) for the past several thousand years. Again, I disagree, and I think there a thousands of Scots, Irish, etc who were forceably disarmed by the friendly government of the now UK, who fought and died to restore those rights would probably agree with me. The same people whom, if they had abided by prohibitions of owning swords at the time, might still be second class subjects or worse.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, although I'm sure I could win, since I'm armed and you guys aren't ;f. (just teasing on that last bit) but my point is thus, you DO have the right, you just fail to recongize it, and that freedoms have been hard fought from the government in your own past. Yes I understnad, you are statistically safer in terms of violent crime in the UK, and I understand that the majority gave up their rights willingly. My "Live Free or die" attitude wouldn't fly. Or maybe it would, maybe we just disagree on what "free" is. That could be the the main misunderstanding between us.
I'm a libertarian, which puts me in the minority even in this country, because of what I believe freedom is, as compared to the average American, so I'd probably way off there anyway. *Drown* I don't trust a government, any government, because historically, every government men have created has become corrupt and lead to tyranny. The only ones that have not, are the ones that haven't had time to yet. :soap: I do not trust my government not to do it, and I suspect that your government, wittingly or not, is heading for a calamity. So I think governments should stay out of peoples lives as much as humanly possible, to reduce their ability to oppress people. I don't think they should have anything to do with people doing things to themselves, and I don't believe that they should preemptively attack me, when I have not done anything to harm others, or interfere with their basic rights. An example of this is a popular law here in the US, where the wearing of seatbelts is required by law. I ask you, what business is it the government's, if I kill or injure myself? They should not have the authority. I wear my seatbelt because I choose to, not because they try and make me. The same is true of gun ownership in my mind, they have no business taking away my God given right to protect myself, whether I "need" it or not. I may live in a place that has no crime whatsoever, but if I'm not hurting or endangering anyone else, there is not adequate reason to take this away from me, it doesn't make sense to me. Afterall, if its that safe, then the danger of me doing anything is nil anyway, right? And if there IS in fact a danger, then I should have the ability to handle it myself, if I choose.
Wow... I've made alot more noise than I intended to ;f so I appologize if I ranted a bit too much.
At any rate, stay safe, and live free
<c>b

Brown Hawk
12-30-2005, 18:12
Midnight,

If you refer back to an earlier post of mine, I think it comes down to they trust their government, and we don't. I think that at least part of that is no invasion in the last 950 years. Whatever the reason, it is there.

And while you and I think they're standing on the track, and the train is coming, most of them won't agree. And most of humanity would sooner give up their lives than their preconceptions.

As Tempest has said earlier, their leadership is too PC to admit that there is a problem, and it will probably take some more lives before they do. Who was it who said that all it takes to make a liberal into a gun-nut is a mugging?

And yes, I think that their definition of freedom is different than ours. I think theirs is: Free to live in peace and harmony with fellow subjects. (This is subject to correction by our UK cousins.) Our definition is: Free to go to hell in our own handbasket.

We may not agree, but when I look at it their way, I can see why they're not getting bent out of shape.

And keep in mind that the last time they got mugged, we sent guns and they put them to dam good use.

And they have more of an attitude that government confers rights, not God. But that's why we split in the first place. :)

Hawk

KY-Midnight
12-30-2005, 18:22
Agreed, I'm not trying to be an ***, but I read this thread every time somone posts, and I just had to say something again :) I accept the differences, but I just can't fathom how so many good, hard working people, of whom so many died protecting freedom, can simply say "well, that wasn't really freedom anyway, and since we don't think we need it now, we never will" it just seems to be a recipe for disaster to me.
Goes back to the culture differences I guess.

Tempest UK
12-30-2005, 18:38
KY-Midnight,


That isn't the point. Those that fight and died didn't do for to sample freedom, they did so to secure freedom. It is not a case of us not thinking we needed it, it is a case of us , correctly or not, believing we have it.

Three little quotes from three different perspectives:

From my definition of freedom:

"We seek peace, knowing that peace is the climate of freedom."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

From what I assume to be yours and Brown Hawk's, regarding us:

"The average man does not want to be free. He simply wants to be safe."
-
H. L. Mencken


However, I think it is generally foolish to speak in terms of simple "freedom". In that respect, none of us a "free". Instead, we should look at it in terms of individual freedoms, and the presence of any one freedom does not make you "free".

To this viewpoint, the last quote relates. I would try to apply this to the American way of thinking, but equally I am sure you will apply it to ours. I am sure, rather, that it applies to both of us. You believe in "freedom" which in itself is a lie by its own definition, and under the "British" way of thinking we should supposedly believe ourselves to be "free" also. However, I personally recognise that by said definition of "freedom", as I have stated before, none of us are "free".

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."
- Goethe

Regards,
Tempest

Brown Hawk
12-30-2005, 18:44
Originally posted by KY-Midnight

Goes back to the culture differences I guess.

Yeah,
But look at it from their point of view.

In the United States of America:
Atheists believe in God given rights;
Liberals don't think the government should stick it's nose in THEIR business;
Conservatives believe in individual liberty;
Christians will turn the other cheek, but retain their six guns;
and
We founded the UN, but regularly tell it to B%^&***& OUT.

No wonder they think we're way out there.;Q

Hawk

Brown Hawk
12-30-2005, 19:10
Originally posted by Tempest UK

"We seek peace, knowing that peace is the climate of freedom."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower


"The average man does not want to be free. He simply wants to be safe."
-
H. L. Mencken


"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."
- Goethe

Regards,
Tempest

Hey, Tempest, How you doing?

As for your three quotes, I'd say:

Freedom is the climate of peace.

The average man wants to be free, but often will settle for safe.

If I recall, Goethe believed that circumstances governed us, not the other way around. So he didn't believe in freedom.

I think Midnight and I would tend to agree on the first two. And at the beginning of this country, a European traveling here, (I'm sorry I forget his name) said that when Americans were confronted with someone who said that the circumstances wouldn't permit something, would retort that then they would change the circumstances. We haven't changed much since.

Good to hear from you,

Hawk

TommyT
12-31-2005, 21:40
Originally posted by Brown Hawk

But if your worst job is to break up drunken brawls, and it happens every week, maybe you really DO need to outlaw beer mugs.;b


Tell me about it! ;z
Friday and Saturday nights are THE nights for all the trouble. Binge drinking and public order problems are the biggest challenges the police here currently face. It's an issue which regularly makes headline news, and is a top priority in the Governments agenda.

As an interesting side issue, the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 became law as of midnight tonight. It's a HUGE change in our powers of arrest. Basically ANY offence is now arrestable under Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. In the past, some offences were not 'arrestable' and had to be dealt with by summons etc.
It's not as simple as it sounds though. The new Act states that we should only arrest when other means, such as fixed penalty notices or the like are not appropriate. When the suspect is now arrested, not only must he be cautioned and given the reason for his arrest, but he must now be told why that arrest is necessary.
This only applies to England and Wales. Scotland's criminal law is different to the rest of the UK.

Tempest UK
01-01-2006, 11:13
Originally posted by TommyT

As an interesting side issue, the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 became law as of midnight tonight. It's a HUGE change in our powers of arrest. Basically ANY offence is now arrestable under Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. In the past, some offences were not 'arrestable' and had to be dealt with by summons etc.
It's not as simple as it sounds though. The new Act states that we should only arrest when other means, such as fixed penalty notices or the like are not appropriate. When the suspect is now arrested, not only must he be cautioned and given the reason for his arrest, but he must now be told why that arrest is necessary.
This only applies to England and Wales. Scotland's criminal law is different to the rest of the UK. [/B]


<posh British voice> Jolly good show! </posh British voice>

I bet the New Year has/will continue to result in a sharp increase in alcohol related problems.
;c

Brown Hawk
01-01-2006, 19:26
Tommy,

Well, New Years and a weekend all at the same time!;P

Here's hoping that you and all your mates made it through safely.

Best wishes,

Hawk

TommyT
01-02-2006, 07:09
Cheers guys.
To be fair, New Years was fairly quiet. Most people around here were quite well behaved, perhaps because most clubs / pubs were ticket only. Once people were inside, they stayed there all evening. Spirits were good and everyone seemed to have a good time.

Christmas Eve on the other hand was a nightmare. Fights all over the place! Was rushing around 'on the blues' for hours. ;Q ;f

EntryTeamBJJMMA
01-10-2006, 10:24
The UK populace have a long history of relying on their "masters"...the government (read: the aristocracy) to protect them. WE do not. WE took it upon ourselves to protect what WE owned and had control of. It is apparent, in national attitude, the differences in our recent history.

The british people need to wake up, or they'll find themsleves the unformtuneate victims of their own apathy.

God Bless America!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-R

TommyT
01-10-2006, 11:37
Originally posted by EntryTeamBJJMMA
The UK populace have a long history of relying on their "masters"...the government (read: the aristocracy) to protect them. WE do not. WE took it upon ourselves to protect what WE owned and had control of. It is apparent, in national attitude, the differences in our recent history.

The british people need to wake up, or they'll find themsleves the unformtuneate victims of their own apathy.

God Bless America!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-R

What a stupid comment.

Yeah, we're a backward civilization, who can't look after ourselves. We need Mummy Blair to tell us what to do.

*runs off to play with toys*

Tempest UK
01-14-2006, 03:12
Originally posted by EntryTeamBJJMMA
The UK populace have a long history of relying on their "masters"...the government (read: the aristocracy) to protect them. WE do not. WE took it upon ourselves to protect what WE owned and had control of. It is apparent, in national attitude, the differences in our recent history.

The british people need to wake up, or they'll find themsleves the unformtuneate victims of their own apathy.

God Bless America!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-R


;a


...oh...you're serious. Well, a post of such pre-pubescent proportions doesn't deserve a serious response.

TommyT
01-14-2006, 06:33
Originally posted by Tempest UK
;a


...oh...you're serious. Well, a post of such pre-pubescent proportions doesn't deserve a serious response.

Indeed. To think they actually let someone with such a childish attitude own so many guns (sig) perhaps sums up perfectly why we have the laws we do. ;Q

That, and of course the fact that we are all the subserviant slaves of our government. ;a

Hugh Neal
01-14-2006, 08:54
I always believed the old maxim "Beware the man who only has one gun - he probably knows how to use it!"

Hugh Neal
02-15-2006, 12:34
From BBC News online:

A policewoman who was shot in the stomach by a gunman has said "sorry" to her family for not catching him.

Pc Rachael Bown, 23, of Nottinghamshire Police, who is still in a serious condition in hospital, told her father she had let her colleagues down.

She was on duty with an experienced male officer when she was shot in the abdomen below her body armour in Nottingham late on Monday night.

No-one has been arrested and the police investigation continues.


We just want her to get better and bring her home Jan Bown, Rachael's mother.

Her parents, Martin and Jan Bown, said their daughter's first thoughts when she awoke from surgery was that she had let her colleagues down.

The attack happened about half a mile from where the burglary took place.

Pc Bown underwent emergency surgery at the city's Queen's Medical Centre.

Mr Martin, 44, said: "When she opened her eyes the first thing she said was 'sorry dad, I'm going to get the sack'.

"That's the sort of girl she is, she is always thinking of others and would hate to think she'd let anyone down."

Her parents described the last two days as a living nightmare.

1911copper
03-09-2006, 12:00
Originally posted by big grip
I took this from my post on the CCW forum, figured it would go here well.

Here's a link, it's 46 pages in a pdf so you can save it to your hard drive.

http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publicati...y2000i/app4.pdf

You will want to check tables # 1, 6 & 25.

The US has a decreasing violent crime rate and the so-called "civilized" nations of the UK, Canada and Austrilia have raising violent crime. I noticed that the UK breaks out Scotland from England & Whales.

BTW, this is from a UN web page therefore liberals CAN NOT ARGUE with you about it.

Have you got a current link? I need this information.

Hugh Neal
03-09-2006, 12:09
Thanks 1911Copper - I thought that the thread had died!

I cannot help you with the link, but UKProGun might be able to.

Incidentally, since I posted the article about the woman cop shot by a bad guy, she has made a pretty much full recovery and the police made an arrest (it has not gone to court yet).

Everyone in the UK seems to be pretty much preoccupied with the £53 Million (about $75 million) cash robbery that took place a couple of weeks ago in Tonbridge, Kent (not very far from where I live, actually). Some of the cash has been recovered in Welling, Kent (literally up the road from my place). Lots of jokes about looking for hidden cash in the garden potting shed and the like, but there really is around £30 million still unrecovered and I guess the stash must be local to me.....

UK Pro Gun
03-10-2006, 15:45
Hi all,

1911Copper
Is this the link you were looking for:

http://www.unicri.it/wwd/analysis/icvs/publications.php

<i>Click on,</i> "Alvazzi del Frate, Anna, Van Kesteren, J.N., (2004) 'Criminal Victimisation in Urban Europe. Key findings of the 2000 International Crime Victims Survey'. Turin, UNICRI. Full text in PDF"

If you think that the worse thing that can happen here in GB, (Gone Barmy Britain) is that you can't use a gun for active self defense then look at this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4788930.stm

Last Updated: Thursday, 9 March 2006, 11:14 GMT
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
<i>
Schoolboy wears stab-proof vest
A schoolboy wore a stab-proof vest beneath his uniform after being threatened.

The boy, 16, is believed to have worn it on his journey to and from the Lammas School in Leyton, east London.

A police officer was made aware of a pupil wearing "what was believed to be a stab-proof vest", said a spokesman for Scotland Yard.

He added that in consultation with the school "the officer told the pupil to remove the vest".

Police became aware of the vest through the local Safer Schools officer - part of a programme running in 34 local education authorities, with high levels of truancy and crime.

They have become increasingly concerned about the number of people arming themselves with knives - nearly 80 people were killed in knife attacks in London last year.

They have also been running several campaigns in an attempt to alert youngsters to the dangers of carrying knives. </i>

So now passive defense is also illegal, what next, if mugged and you actually run away you'll be fined!

<h2><font color=red>
New topic:
Any jobs for a wirefree fire alarm techhie in NC? Help a poor 'subject' get to become a real citizen;g </font>

1911copper
03-10-2006, 21:59
Thanks, UK.

Laserlips
03-26-2006, 08:52
Originally posted by TommyT
At last, someone who talks with some sense.
To be honest I'm totally bored with most on here b itching about our way of life in the UK, when in fact, most have absolutely no idea about life here. You don't like it? Fine, don't come here, you wont be missed.

TommyT:

There is one fact about the UK that overrides all others FOR ME.

I feel that the US has ONLY two allies who will both defend themselves, and support the US in our defense, and the UK is one of them.

That single fact is more important to me than whether or not I understand why the British subjects have allowed themselves to basically become disarmed.

So, while the continuing disarmament of the British is a puzzle to me, it's basically none of my business.

I think if we could exchange places for a year or so both of our attitudes about firearms and many other subjects would be forever altered.. It's all about the "walk a mile in my shoes" deal.

Basically as it stands, I think the average British subject feels no need of personal firearms ownership, so it's no big deal. On the other hand, a great number of Americans believe even if we have no personal need for firearms, we are free citizens, and should have the option to have them if we so chose. I think it's also a different mindset between a "subject" and a "citizen". Apparently that has been true for a long time, therein the 2nd Amendment.

Or, we are legally entitled to own firearms by our Constitution, so we resent anybody fooling with that 2nd Amendment freedom. We take the legal ownership of firearms as a given, and it's surprising to us why people in other countries don't have the same rights.. (Or even "want, or need" the same rights.)

As for visiting the UK, I would hope to do so one day. My great-great Grandfather must have thought it was a great place to leav.. ur, live.. Or he did up to the moment he saved enough green stamps* to hitch a ride on the first thing sailing for the "colonies"....

After all's said and done if the "ball falls" I believe the British and American people have allies in each other.. And TO ME, that's a big deal. (perhaps that's one reason the Argentine folks are still po'ed at us?)

Best Wishes - Sincerely.

J. Pomeroy

* Actually I think he came over as an "indentured servant".. (You know that fact sucks when you try to brag about your family "heritage")..



:supergrin:

TommyT
03-27-2006, 17:12
Originally posted by Laserlips
TommyT:

There is one fact about the UK that overrides all others FOR ME.

I feel that the US has ONLY two allies who will both defend themselves, and support the US in our defense, and the UK is one of them.

That single fact is more important to me than whether or not I understand why the British subjects have allowed themselves to basically become disarmed.

So, while the continuing disarmament of the British is a puzzle to me, it's basically none of my business.

I think if we could exchange places for a year or so both of our attitudes about firearms and many other subjects would be forever altered.. It's all about the "walk a mile in my shoes" deal.

Basically as it stands, I think the average British subject feels no need of personal firearms ownership, so it's no big deal. On the other hand, a great number of Americans believe even if we have no personal need for firearms, we are free citizens, and should have the option to have them if we so chose. I think it's also a different mindset between a "subject" and a "citizen". Apparently that has been true for a long time, therein the 2nd Amendment.

Or, we are legally entitled to own firearms by our Constitution, so we resent anybody fooling with that 2nd Amendment freedom. We take the legal ownership of firearms as a given, and it's surprising to us why people in other countries don't have the same rights.. (Or even "want, or need" the same rights.)

As for visiting the UK, I would hope to do so one day. My great-great Grandfather must have thought it was a great place to leav.. ur, live.. Or he did up to the moment he saved enough green stamps* to hitch a ride on the first thing sailing for the "colonies"....

After all's said and done if the "ball falls" I believe the British and American people have allies in each other.. And TO ME, that's a big deal. (perhaps that's one reason the Argentine folks are still po'ed at us?)

Best Wishes - Sincerely.

J. Pomeroy

* Actually I think he came over as an "indentured servant".. (You know that fact sucks when you try to brag about your family "heritage")..



:supergrin:

Totally agree with you! A well reasoned post by you LaserLips. All I was asking for (unsuccessfully) was some empathy for the way we live.
Contrary to what many people on here think, we enjoy just as many freedoms and liberties as our cousins accross the pond, with the exception of a right to bear arms. Our freely elected government decided to bring in sweeping gun laws, which I can assure you were widely welcomed by the vast majority of the population.

As a side point, I am not a British Subject. My passport says "British Citizen". A "British Subject" is something different. *SEE HERE* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_subject)

Laserlips
03-27-2006, 17:44
Originally posted by TommyT


As a side point, I am not a British Subject. My passport says "British Citizen". A "British Subject" is something different. *SEE HERE* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_subject) [/B]

TommyT:

Ok.. I give. But you've got to admit unless you read all that stuff it could be confusing.'

Heck, I still can't figure out what the relationship of your Queen and Canada is? Or even why half of Canada speaks French.

Lifes a puzzle, then you die..

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy



:supergrin:

seanmac45
03-27-2006, 17:56
They deserve whatever they get.

TommyT
03-27-2006, 18:53
Originally posted by Laserlips

Ok.. I give. But you've got to admit unless you read all that stuff it could be confusing.'


Hell yeah! :supergrin:

The Queen is the head of state of Canada. All goes back to the colonial days and the fact that it's never changed. AFAIK The Queen is still very popular over there. Thats not to say it wont change in future. In fact, the Australians are having this very debate again. In 1999 they voted in a referendum to keep The Queen as head of state rather than become a republic. It looks as if the tide is turning and things may well change. Good luck to them. If that's what the people of Oz want, fair play to them.
Many of the old Empire countries have become republics, athough most remain members of the Commonwealth.
She remains the head of state of most of the Carribean countries (ex British colonies), Australia, New Zealand, Canada and of course The UK.
Altough she is head of state, she holds no political power in the UK other than she must sign all new laws (Royal Assent). All decisions are made by the government.

TommyT
03-27-2006, 18:54
Originally posted by seanmac45
They deserve whatever they get.

Who do?

Tempest UK
03-29-2006, 12:04
Originally posted by seanmac45
They deserve whatever they get.


Care to explain what you mean by that? Wouldn't want people to think you're simple minded or incapable of expressing yourself, after all :upeyes:

Regards,
Tempest

Laserlips
03-29-2006, 12:29
Originally posted by Tempest UK
Care to explain what you mean by that? Wouldn't want people to think you're simple minded or incapable of expressing yourself, after all :upeyes:

Regards,
Tempest

Well, I don't have a clue as to what seanmac45 was referring to, but since I'm a semi-senile redneck who lives in the woods of SE Ga. in a double-wide I don't even consider being called simple-minded, or incapable of expressing myself as a negative.

Heck, right after my sister and I got married we took some crap from Dad, (who thought he had "dibs" on her), but in a "simple minded" way we expressed our thoughts pretty clearly.

I will admit the conversation centered around the size of a hole a #4 buck will make on a human, a fat human, from 6 feet. Poppa fell off the turnip truck for sure, but it wasn't yesterday, so he kindly stepped aside and we went on off to Wally World on our honeymoon.

All to say when you get on this firearms forum you will certainly at some point in time be offended, but don't let it get to you, it's a National pasttime.. And if nothing else we are "equal opportunity offenders"..

Best Wishes,
J.P.

:supergrin: http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_4765.jpg

P.S.

No reason for the pictures other than it's two of my favorite concealed firearms. You need a set like this!

TommyT
03-29-2006, 13:58
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_4765.jpg[/IMG]

P.S.

No reason for the pictures other than it's two of my favorite concealed firearms. You need a set like this! [/B]




I like the one on the right :supergrin:

Ian
03-29-2006, 14:55
TommyT.
Good to see that you are still alive!;)
You mention that there is a large threat from knives rather than firearms.
How do cope with a knife wielder?
Surely you would be better equipped with extensive firearms training and a handgun.

TommyT
03-29-2006, 15:28
Originally posted by Ian
TommyT.
Good to see that you are still alive!;)
You mention that there is a large threat from knives rather than firearms.
How do cope with a knife wielder?
Surely you would be better equipped with extensive firearms training and a handgun.

Hi Ian. Yeah, I'm still about. ;)
Knives are indeed much more of a day-to-day threat. I've been a front line cop for nearly 3 years now and I have NEVER been to an incident involving firearms. Of course, they do happen, and tragically and officer in northern England was recently killed. It may happen a lot in the States, but here it is thankfully extremely rare, and national front page news.
Firearms 'jobs' are dealt with by the guys in the Armed Response teams.

Anyway I digress. How do we cope with a knife wielder? Well naturally it all depends on the incident. Factors like environment and amount of people involved all play a part, but our first line of defence is our mouths. Communication plays a monumenatlly big part, and I have been involved in numerous highly charged incidents where an officers ability to empathise and talk to, what often can be very disturbed people, has resulted in a safe outcome for all. We do of course carry ASP batons and CS spray. The CS is highly effective in dissabling violent people and has been use many times to great effect (although not by me, yet.)
As I might have mentioned before, CS spray here is a Class 5 firearm, and as such, is illegal to possess by all except on-duty police officers. It is kept securely at the police station when we are off duty.

The problem with arming the police service here is not just about the training, it's about recruitment. I know of extremely competent, highly skilled officers that would be useless with a gun. It's not their fault, it's just that they have never held a gun. I bet that 99% of beat cops serving in the UK have never fired a gun.
Until they implement some sort of assessment at the recruitment stage, where they can get an insight to someones ability to learn how to fire and safely handle guns, we can't be armed.

Currently the UK has 2 fully armed civilian police forces, but they are very small and highly specialized. I know for a fact that both these forces, the Ministry of Defence Police and The Civil Nuclear Constabulary, assess a persons suitability for firearms training upon application.
Take a look *HERE* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOD_Police) and *HERE* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Nuclear_Constabulary).

To be honest, I cannot see it happening. However, our firearms guys do now carry Tazers, and maybe they might be generally issued in the future. We'll see......

Regards,

TT

P.S. I forgot to mention that we routinely wear overt body armour. Mine is brand new, and so we are told, the very best money can buy. Stab and ballistic proof. ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/aa/Police_armed_uk.jpg

1911copper
03-29-2006, 15:37
Originally posted by TommyT
Hi Ian. Yeah, I'm still about. ;)
Knives are indeed much more of a day-to-day threat. I've been a front line cop for nearly 3 years now and I have NEVER been to an incident involving firearms. Of course, they do happen, and tragically and officer in northern England was recently killed. It may happen a lot in the States, but here it is thankfully extremely rare, and national front page news.
Firearms 'jobs' are dealt with by the guys in the Armed Response teams.

Anyway I digress. How do we cope with a knife wielder? Well naturally it all depends on the incident. Factors like environment and amount of people involved all play a part, but our first line of defence is our mouths. Communication plays a monumenatlly big part, and I have been involved in numerous highly charged incidents where an officers ability to empathise and talk to, what often can be very disturbed people has resulted in a safe outcome for all. We do of course carry ASP batons and CS spray. The CS is highly effective in dissabling violent people and has been use many time to great effect (altough not by me, yet.)
As I might have mentioned before, CS spray here is a Class 5 fiream, and as such, is illegal to possess by all except on-duty police officers. It is kept securely at the police station when we are off duty.

The problem with arming the police service here is not just about the training, it's about recruitment. I know of extremely competent, highly skilled officers that would be useless with a gun. It's not their fault, it's just that they have never held a gun. I bet that 99% of cops serving in the UK have never fired a gun.
Until they implement some sort of assessment at the recruitment stage, where they can get an insight to someones ability to learn how to fire and safely handle guns, we can't be armed.

Currently the UK has 2 fully armed civilian police forces, but they are very small and highly specialized. I know for a fact that both these forces, the Ministry of Defence Police and The Civil Nuclear Constabulary, assess a persons suitability for firearms training upon application.
Take a look *HERE* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOD_Police) and *HERE* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Nuclear_Constabulary).

To be honest, I cannot see it happening. However, our firearms guys do now carry Tazers, and maybe they might be generally issued in the future. We'll see......

Regards,

TT

P.S. I forgot to mention that we routinely wear overt body armour. Mine is brand new, and so we are told, the very best money can buy. Stab and ballistic proof. ;)

Tommy,
First, I'd like to speculate about the cultural differences involved between the two of our nations. I once had a "Bobby" ride-along with me, and he told me that typically they could respond to a bar fight and point to suspects, and say, "You, you, you and you- you're all under arrest. Come along now," and most of the time they'd comply. This is a far cry from our experience, where we without exception handcuff everyone behind their back (its necessary) and would likely have to fight some or all of the aforementioned combatants into custody.
Converseley, I recently saw a video of two UK police officers in an amazing knock-down, drag-out fight with a suspect drug dealer who simply wouldn't stop fighting, even after pepper spray. What are your thoughts on this cultural issue?
BTW: as a long-time firearms instructor, I've often found women who've never shot before to be excellent students. The thinking here is that they've not picked up any bad habits yet, and aren't of the mind that they already "know how to shoot" and therefore take direction and training better.
Also- a bit off topic- but why is it some Brits are offended or roll their eyes when referred to as "English" or when one refers to the UK as "England?" What is the nuance involved here? What do you fellows prefer as references? Educate us.

Ian
03-29-2006, 15:43
Good eloquent and sensible posts.
TommyT, you are a brave man.

TommyT
03-29-2006, 15:55
Hi 911,
believe me, the days of "do come along now chap" are long gone. Street fights are something British coppers have become world experts on. Large fights outside British pubs, where drunken thugs would like nothing more then to rip a cops head off are commonplace. If someone is gonna be nicked, then they're gonna be nicked. Him and all his donut mates. If they kick off and want a tear-up, fine, but they're coming in one way or another. I'm 6'4 and built like a tank. If they want to try it (and they often do!), it's gonna get messy.

As for the British / English thing, what you will nearly always find is that someone from England will call himself either British or English. Most, including me refer to themself as English. It's the biggest country within the Union, with the biggest population.
However a Scotsman will ALWAYS say he's Scottish, a Welshman will ALWAYS say he's Welsh. Although we are a UNITED Kingdom, each country within the UK holds fierce national pride, even though the passports of all of us say we're British.

To a foreigner, me talking about countries within a country (the UK) may sound confusing, but to us it's normal. I suppose it's kind of like the way different states within the US pretty much govern themselves, but form the bigger picture as the USA. The difference is with us is, the countries within the UK used to all be separate, independant entities, but joined over the course of hundreds of years. However, old national customs and pride remain strong.
I am a proud Englishman. I have a very close Scottish friend who would knock your teeth out if you call him British ( :supergrin: ) but our passports are exactly the same! Confused? I am!

1911copper
03-29-2006, 16:01
Informative post. As for the street fights, I'm sure you'd be the one in the know.

TommyT
03-29-2006, 16:07
Take a look at this... Pretty typical Friday night here.

Edit: GAH! Tried to upload a good video, but it wont let me!

TommyT
03-29-2006, 16:23
Originally posted by 1911copper
I once had a "Bobby" ride-along with me

I'd love to do that! Maybe if I return to the States sometime...

1911copper
03-29-2006, 16:25
Originally posted by TommyT
I'd love to do that! Maybe if I return to the States sometime...
Well, there'd always be at least one empty seat available to you here in Oklahoma.

TommyT
03-29-2006, 16:32
Originally posted by 1911copper
Well, there'd always be at least one empty seat available to you here in Oklahoma.

Good man! ;) If I pop over to see family in Abilene in the future I may look you up!

I mean't to mention - If someone here has been nicked for any violent offence they will always be cuffed. If they are non compliant, they will be "rear stack" cuffed. All UK forces except one, use rigid "Kwik-Cuffs". Very, very good tools.

http://www.met.police.uk/merton/cuffs.jpg

1911copper
03-29-2006, 16:37
Originally posted by TommyT
Good man! ;) If I pop over to see family in Abilene in the future I may look you up!

I mean't to mention - If someone here has been nicked for any violent offence they will always be cuffed. If they are non compliant, they will be "rear stack" cuffed. All UK forces except one, use rigid "Kwik-Cuffs". Very, very good tools.

http://www.met.police.uk/merton/cuffs.jpg


I carry a pair of S&W hinged cuffs, but the issued cuffs are the standard chain-link type.

NeroGatto
03-29-2006, 16:39
Originally posted by spetsnaz777
Gun Crime can't exist in England. After all they banned them;Q


Hmmm... That's what I was thinking.

TommyT
03-29-2006, 16:41
My back-up ones are the hinged type. Easier to carry.

UK forces used to use the chain-link type, but changed to the rigid type in the early 90's. It was deemed that they are better for primary control and application.
It takes a lot of training to use them correctly, but well worth it in my opinion.

Tempest UK
03-30-2006, 08:44
The British/English thing:

As TommyT has said, it is generally only the English population that uses both "British" and "English" interchangeably. Welsh are Welsh, and Scots are Scots.

Again, as TommyT has said, England, Scotland and Wales used to be independent, then were united as part of the UK. But to make it more confusing, as a result of devolution Scotland has been given its own parliament, and Wales its own Assembly, so to an extent they are moving towards independence again (though nothing like as much as it was before).

Regards,
Tempest

Hugh Neal
03-30-2006, 08:55
Hi 1911Copper and TommyT - I have been lurking for a while without posting; 1911 - when (mainly) Americans call us Brits "English" it is a bit of a misnomer, as a person of British extraction could be English, Welsh, Northern Irish or Scottish (all parts of the United Kingdom). Many Scots get quite offended at being branded "English" (a historical thing - us English were rather nasty to them in the past - as we were to the Welsh and Irish, though now I think it might be more of an insecurity thing).

It is part of the subtle differences in language and terminology - Cider in the U.S is a soothing soft drink made with apples; in the UK it can vary from a mildly alcoholic beverage to an evil brew equally at home powering winoes to removing driveway grease stains and fuelling rocket vehicles.

TommyT
03-30-2006, 12:33
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
an evil brew equally at home powering winoes to removing driveway grease stains and fuelling rocket vehicles.

Diamond White anyone? :uglylol:

Oh to be 15 again! :supergrin: :drunk:

Hugh Neal
03-30-2006, 12:59
Diamond White - Yuck!

Round my neck of the woods it is commonly referred to as "Trampagne"!

For the Americans - Diamond White is a VERY strong sparkling Apple Cider (I think around 8 percent alcohol) that is the main fuel of bums and dropouts, as it is relatively cheap and nasty. It normally comes in two litre (about a quart, more or less) bottles that retail for the equivalent of roughly five dollars. Avoid if you value your liver, sanity and brain cells! BTW it dissolves varnish and shoe polish....

TommyT
03-30-2006, 13:04
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Diamond White - Yuck!

Round my neck of the woods it is commonly referred to as "Trampagne"!

For the Americans - Diamond White is a VERY strong sparkling Apple Cider (I think around 8 percent alcohol) that is the main fuel of bums and dropouts, as it is relatively cheap and nasty. It normally comes in two litre (about a quart, more or less) bottles that retail for the equivalent of roughly five dollars. Avoid if you value your liver, sanity and brain cells! BTW it dissolves varnish and shoe polish....

Oh the hangovers I had in my mid teens, after spending a saturday evening hidden in the woods drinking that evil stuff with my mates! Ugh, my liver aches at the thought of it....
Kids eh?! :supergrin:

http://www.tptb.co.uk/blog/archives/diamond%20white.jpg

:laughabove:

Hugh Neal
04-02-2006, 07:48
They are breeding. Our American colleagues don't know how lucky they are not to to have to suffer Chavs fuelled by Diamond White / White Lightning, trying to take on the world (basically any innocent bystander they care to pick on). More Polioce brutality against these pond life is what I would like to see.

1911copper
04-02-2006, 11:16
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
They are breeding. Our American colleagues don't know how lucky they are not to to have to suffer Chavs fuelled by Diamond White / White Lightning, trying to take on the world (basically any innocent bystander they care to pick on). More Polioce brutality against these pond life is what I would like to see.

Trust me, Hugh, we have no shortage of alcoholics and "amateurs" alike, fueled by "guts in a glass" doing the incredibly stupid. We had a pursuit yesterday afternoon with a drunk who had his six-year-old grand daughter in the back seat with him.

Hugh Neal
04-02-2006, 11:28
Hi 1911 - it just goes to show that irresponsibility and a disregard for others knows no national boundaries. Apologies for the typoes in my prevous posting; it comes from a) not proof reading my submission properly and b) swapping between my Sun Ultra 60 Unix workstation, my Linux laptop and my iMac and forgetting the key layouts are different on each! I love Macs, but IMHO they have terrible keyboards (keys too close together - they look great, but are a bugger to type on if you have big hands like me). Sun make the best keyboards, but they cost a fortune.

I am surprised we have not heard from UK Pro Gun on the board recently, he was round at my house on Friday night for a chat and to collect some computer bits and pieces I had acquired for him.

It is nearly ten years since I had to surrender my Glock 17 after the UK handgun ban; to this day I can still recall the serial number - AVB 820. Sad.

1911copper
04-02-2006, 11:32
Very sad, indeed. :crying:

I am into "SASS" (Single Action Shooting Society)which is cowboy action shooting, and the SASS website indicates that SASS has some 50,000 UK members. Are certain types of firearms still allowed?

Hugh Neal
04-02-2006, 11:53
Wow - that was a quick reply!

Basically ALL hand guns are completely banned, with (I believe) the exception of a small number of muzzle loading black powder weapons used by historical re-creators - no more than a tiny handful of people. The ban was very wide ranging. Rifles are very restricted (I am a bit hazy on the details, never having been a long arm shooter). Shotguns require a licence and police visits / background checks, plus a "reasonable" reason to want one (such as being a farmer). Air weapons are shortly to go from being effectively unlicenced to having the same restrictions as shot guns.

Gun ownership / use in the UK has always been far different to the US - we have never had a legal right to bear arms as a civilian and the desire to own / use a gun s regarded by the general public as an indicator that you are a psycopath / "nutter" - before the hand gun ban, if I happened to mention I was a sport shooter, about 90% of people would then challenge me to justify it "guns kill people - why would you want to be a killer?"

Before the gun ban, from a population of around 60 million, there were only around 70,000 licenced firearm owners, so we have always been a small minority. Don't forget that a majority of the Police do not carry firearms, and in recent polls many serving officers have indicated they would resign rather than be armed (I think this is partly because the UK law is strongly biased towards the wrong doer - the chances are if a cop shot a bad guy in the course of their duty, they would quite likely get life for murder).

1911copper
04-02-2006, 12:02
Yikes!

The UK SASS members must be using black powder guns.

Hugh Neal
04-02-2006, 12:15
No doubt somebody else on the thread can answer this - I am guessing probably so.

O/T - how do you get a graphic to appear online, rather than as a link? The kind of thing I probably should know I suppose!

BTW, if any of you guys are into amateur radio, my callsign is M1CXN - Advanced class UK licence (yeah, and before you say, I DID flunk my Morse, but you don't need it for HF any more).

Anyway, I am off for Sunday evening dinner now. Catch you later.

TommyT
04-02-2006, 12:54
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Don't forget that a majority of the Police do not carry firearms, and in recent polls many serving officers have indicated they would resign rather than be armed (I think this is partly because the UK law is strongly biased towards the wrong doer - the chances are if a cop shot a bad guy in the course of their duty, they would quite likely get life for murder).

I think thats very true. I believe many would hand their warrant cards back.

As for the police use of firearms, yes, when they are used, the guy who pulls the trigger really goes through the mill. He has his firearm authority removed immediately, the inquiry will go on for ages, and he may well end up in court. :shocked:
It all comes down to justification. The officer needs to be able to prove, without any doubt whatsoever that he believed his action was necessary.

TommyT
04-02-2006, 13:03
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
O/T - how do you get a graphic to appear online, rather than as a link? The kind of thing I probably should know I suppose!
[/B]

There is a tab along the top that says "IMG" (insert image)
Hit that and write in the link. The image will then appear in your post.

1911copper
04-02-2006, 13:16
Originally posted by Hugh Neal

O/T - how do you get a graphic to appear online, rather than as a link? The kind of thing I probably should know I suppose!

First, you have to host your pic on a hosting site, like imageshack, for instance. Then, click on the "IMG" button when you're posting, and paste your link into the window that pops up.

TommyT
04-02-2006, 13:18
Originally posted by 1911copper
First, you have to host your pic on a hosting site, like imageshack, for instance. Then, click on the "IMG" button when you're posting, and paste your link into the window that pops up.

Or do as I do and find one on Google! :supergrin:

Hugh Neal
04-03-2006, 15:01
I just dug out my old Glock user guide that came with my 17 in its' Tupperware box - I kept it as there was no redemption value when I had to hand all my shooting kit in for compensation after the UK handgun ban. Bit of nostalgia really. Do they still come with all the low rent accessories? I felt a bit cheated when I bought it from the (now non - existent) gun dealer in Hockley, Essex. I thought it would come all shiny (okay, well matt and black) in a nice box - instead it turned up like a Sainsbury's ready meal!

Once I started shooting with it, well, that is another story, and I fell in love with it. Like a piece of white goods, it just WORKED.

I just think that they should come presented n a bit more of a glamorous fashion - rather than in the very ordinary plastic box - apologies if this has now changed and I am out of date.

Jerry
04-03-2006, 15:17
The beauty of Glock is the fact that their stuff is functional. No glitz no glamour just easy to care for and it works. :supergrin:

Hugh Neal
04-03-2006, 15:27
Ta for that - I know what you mean. A bit like an AK in that it is the reliability and functionality that counts. I suppose I had been seduced by the adverts in the UK shooting publications in '93 when I bought the pistol (I expected all the whizz bang stuff, being a newbie and all that).

I explained in minute detail how to field strip a Glock to the son of UK Pro Gun on Friday night - and after ten years I could still almost "feel" doing it - just goes to show that you don't forget that which means the most to you.

Ian
04-03-2006, 15:41
When did we become an unarmed people?
I am sure we went from carrying swords to dueling pistols.

Hugh Neal
04-03-2006, 15:52
I am only discussing the UK, where compulsory handgun disarmament happened in 1996 / 1997. That is where I am based, and where my experience lies.

Ian
04-03-2006, 15:58
I know, I was there.
I am interested in how we first lost our right to carry firearms.
Was it taken away from us, or did carrying weapons become unfashionable?
I feel the press holds a lot of responsibility for misleading the English public, nowdays anyway.

Hugh Neal
04-06-2006, 23:16
Hi again all,

The right to own hand guns was taken away by Parliament in 1996 as part of the incoming Labour government's manifesto. It had widespread public support.

A story that has just appeared in the press:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006160137,00.html

Ian
04-07-2006, 08:56
Not to own to carry

Hugh Neal
04-07-2006, 09:38
IANAH (I am not a historian) but I think it was in the early 1950's - not long after the war; I know that in Victorian Britain it was quite legal for a Gentleman to carry a revolver for self defence. Does anyone else have more thorough knowlege on the subject - Maybe I should do a bit of a Google search...

UK Pro Gun
04-17-2006, 09:00
Ian
I am interested in how we first lost our right to carry firearms.
Was it taken away from us, or did carrying weapons become unfashionable?

I think it goes back to the fifties when the home office "advised" all Police forces that when someone applied for a firearm permit they needed to state a reason why they wanted one.

The "advice" stated that "for self defense" was NOT an acceptable reason. Therefore people learnt to say "for sport" and in just a few years the idea that self defense was reasonable started to go out of the British mind.

Watch out that the tree hugging bleeding heart libs/commies in the US don't try the same trick on you guys:shocked:

Ian
04-17-2006, 09:03
Thank you.
I am sure that it will happen though.
I have lived and seen it in England, and lived and seen it in Israel too!

Hugh Neal
04-17-2006, 09:36
Hi again chaps,

One thing occurs to me; recently in the professional computer press (I am in IT Management, for my sins) an article was published in relation to the failure of the Police and Home Office to set up and run a national firearms database. This database was meant to be set up as a result of the enquiry into the Dunblane massacre in 1996. It was supposed to track the estimated 70,000 still - legal shotguns, bolt action rifles and black powder weapons still in private ownership. In TEN YEARS they have failed to get the system working.

This pales into insignificance when compared the the UK's Labour Government plan to introduce both compulsory biometric ID cards to all UK residents, and a mammoth ID database containing DNA records, photos, details of bank accounts and credit ratings - even sexual orientation will be recorded! (And before some of the UK posters to this thread come back with "you are exaggerating, that's not what was said on TV / in the papers" - My employers are the principal business advisors to the UK Government regarding the whole scheme, and I have seen DETAILED scoping documents not yet available to the press / general public).

Very frightening, the only comfort is those involved, however unwittingly malevolent are pretty incompetent. In Britain, people generally only work for the Civil Service if they are young and looking for experience, or they lack the competence to get a job in the "real world" where the pay is far higher and the conditions better (CPS anyone?)

More details can be found here: http://www.no2id.net/

TommyT
04-18-2006, 13:19
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Hi again chaps,

One thing occurs to me; recently in the professional computer press (I am in IT Management, for my sins) an article was published in relation to the failure of the Police and Home Office to set up and run a national firearms database. This database was meant to be set up as a result of the enquiry into the Dunblane massacre in 1996. It was supposed to track the estimated 70,000 still - legal shotguns, bolt action rifles and black powder weapons still in private ownership. In TEN YEARS they have failed to get the system working.

This pales into insignificance when compared the the UK's Labour Government plan to introduce both compulsory biometric ID cards to all UK residents, and a mammoth ID database containing DNA records, photos, details of bank accounts and credit ratings - even sexual orientation will be recorded! (And before some of the UK posters to this thread come back with "you are exaggerating, that's not what was said on TV / in the papers" - My employers are the principal business advisors to the UK Government regarding the whole scheme, and I have seen DETAILED scoping documents not yet available to the press / general public).

Very frightening, the only comfort is those involved, however unwittingly malevolent are pretty incompetent. In Britain, people generally only work for the Civil Service if they are young and looking for experience, or they lack the competence to get a job in the "real world" where the pay is far higher and the conditions better (CPS anyone?)

More details can be found here: http://www.no2id.net/

I agree with you mate. Like all Labour govt plans - a complete shower of s**t. Waste of time and money (ours!!!)

Hugh Neal
05-16-2006, 10:41
This thread seems to have gone a bit quiet of late. Here's a link to a news story that has just broken over here in London. No wonder the Home Office want to see a rise in armed officers from roughly 5% of the force now, to around 8% in the near future.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1221849,00.html

And a female Special Constable (part time unpaid volunteer) was stabbed to death outside her own front door over the weekend. It just gets worse!

Ian
05-16-2006, 11:26
Would she be dead had she been armed?
She would have had a better chance for sure

Hugh Neal
05-16-2006, 11:37
Hi Ian,

The Police are still investigating the murder; it would initially appear that she may have been stabbed with her own kitchen knife, though this has yet to be conclusively proved - details on the BBC News website here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4986408.stm

It is ironic and sad that she may have carried the carving knife from her own kitchen for protection when she heard noises from intruders outside.

(For information - John Lewis are an up - market high street department store not too dis - similar to Marks & Spencer).

Ian
05-16-2006, 11:40
Thanks for the posting.
Shame, what a waste of a life.
She was good looking too.

Hugh Neal
05-16-2006, 11:53
I also feel sympathy for her poor husband - they had just celebrated their third wedding anniversary.

http://cms.met.police.uk/news/policy_organisational_news_and_general_information/tributes_to_special_constable_nisha_patel_nasri

TommyT
05-17-2006, 10:42
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
A female Special Constable (part time unpaid volunteer) was stabbed to death outside her own front door over the weekend. It just gets worse!

Truly horrible.

For those that don't know, as mentioned above 'Specials' are unpaid volunteer police officers. They have exactly the same powers, uniform and equipment as full time officers.
They do an incredible job working with and backing up their regular colleagues and are a great resource.
Remarkable people who the job for no more than the sense of satisfaction they get from giving their free time back to the community they serve.

SC Patel-Nasri will be sorely missed by her colleagues.

Rest In Peace Nisha.

TommyT
05-17-2006, 10:48
*Post deleted*

1911copper
05-17-2006, 11:34
We call them "reserve officers" here.
Go with God, Nisha.

oldcop1971
05-20-2006, 02:26
AS A SEMI-RETIRED COP WITH 34+ YEARS EXPERIENCE, I'D LIKE TO APOLOGISE TO MY BRIT COUSINS FOR THE INTOLERANCE DISPLAYED BY SOME POSTERS ON THIS FORUM. AS HAS BEEN SAID, WE ARE TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERANT CULTURES 'SEPARATED' BY A COMMOM LANGUAGE. LOL.
WE SHOULD ALL BE MATURE ENOUGH TO AGREE TO DISAGREE, WITHOUT BEING DISAGREABLE. WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND FOR US, IS OK. NEITHER IS RIGHT OR WRONG, JUST DIFFERENT. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT IN THE WAR ON TERROR. AND IF YOU SHOULD MAKE IT OVER HERE, LOOK US UP AND WE'LL HOIST A PINT TO FALLEN COMRADES.

UK Pro Gun
05-20-2006, 03:52
Originally posted by oldcop1971
AS A SEMI-RETIRED COP WITH 34+ YEARS EXPERIENCE, I'D LIKE TO APOLOGISE TO MY BRIT COUSINS FOR THE INTOLERANCE DISPLAYED BY SOME POSTERS ON THIS FORUM. AS HAS BEEN SAID, WE ARE TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERANT CULTURES 'SEPARATED' BY A COMMOM LANGUAGE. LOL.
WE SHOULD ALL BE MATURE ENOUGH TO AGREE TO DISAGREE, WITHOUT BEING DISAGREABLE. WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND FOR US, IS OK. NEITHER IS RIGHT OR WRONG, JUST DIFFERENT. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT IN THE WAR ON TERROR. AND IF YOU SHOULD MAKE IT OVER HERE, LOOK US UP AND WE'LL HOIST A PINT TO FALLEN COMRADES.

:beer::cool:

TommyT
05-23-2006, 13:59
Originally posted by oldcop1971
AS A SEMI-RETIRED COP WITH 34+ YEARS EXPERIENCE, I'D LIKE TO APOLOGISE TO MY BRIT COUSINS FOR THE INTOLERANCE DISPLAYED BY SOME POSTERS ON THIS FORUM. AS HAS BEEN SAID, WE ARE TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERANT CULTURES 'SEPARATED' BY A COMMOM LANGUAGE. LOL.
WE SHOULD ALL BE MATURE ENOUGH TO AGREE TO DISAGREE, WITHOUT BEING DISAGREABLE. WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND FOR US, IS OK. NEITHER IS RIGHT OR WRONG, JUST DIFFERENT. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT IN THE WAR ON TERROR. AND IF YOU SHOULD MAKE IT OVER HERE, LOOK US UP AND WE'LL HOIST A PINT TO FALLEN COMRADES.

Thanks mate. I appreciate your kind words.

Hugh Neal
05-23-2006, 15:09
Nisha Patel Nasri's case has just been the lead story on BBC's "Crimewatch" (the leading anti crime show in the UK where the general public are urged to help catch the worst criminals at large in the country).

Link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/crimewatch/

Quite a few new leads seem to have come up as a direct result of the appeal by the show. Hopefully more news eventually leading to arrests and convictions will be forthcoming soon.

We don't have the death penalty in the UK. For cop and kid killers we have something far worse. It does not get handed out very often (maybe once or twice a year), but there is a sentence which is termed "to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure". Polite legalese for "throw away the key". Get this and you are certain to spend your entire remaining life in jail. As a Special Police Constable the prosecution in any future murder case would almost certainly press for this sentence.

TommyT
05-23-2006, 15:26
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Nisha Patel Nasri's case has just been the lead story on BBC's "Crimewatch" (the leading anti crime show in the UK where the general public are urged to help catch the worst criminals at large in the country).

Link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/crimewatch/

Quite a few new leads seem to have come up as a direct result of the appeal by the show. Hopefully more news eventually leading to arrests and convictions will be forthcoming soon.

We don't have the death penalty in the UK. For cop and kid killers we have something far worse. It does not get handed out very often (maybe once or twice a year), but there is a sentence which is termed "to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure". Polite legalese for "throw away the key". Get this and you are certain to spend your entire remaining life in jail. As a Special Police Constable the prosecution in any future murder case would almost certainly press for this sentence.

Not really true I'm afraid, I wish it was. "At Her Majesty's pleasure" is used more for young offenders. It's basically an open-ended tarriff imposed by a Judge but where the length is determined by the Home Secretary. It's quite common, especially when young offenders have been found guilty of serious offences.

Under English law, all murders carry a mandatory life sentence, but life rarely means life, unfortunately.

Hugh Neal
05-23-2006, 15:32
Do you not think that under the circumstances the Courts would follow the sentence given to that American former Marine (whose name currently evades me) who shot and killed a UK serving Police officer about three years ago? He got a "detained at Her Majesty's" and he's never coming out.

TommyT
05-23-2006, 15:41
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Do you not think that under the circumstances the Courts would follow the sentence given to that American former Marine (whose name currently evades me) who shot and killed a UK serving Police officer about three years ago? He got a "detained at Her Majesty's" and he's never coming out.

David Bieber got 3 life sentences, and was recommended by the judge to recieve a "whole-life" tariff (only the 25th person in Britain to recieve this).
This is something different to "At Her Majesty's Pleasure", but I see where you're coming from. ;)

HeavyRevolver
05-24-2006, 22:43
Hello everyone,

This has been an interesting thread and for the most part a good discussion with both sides having valid points.

I will say one thing and that is you UK guys have it made in terms of beautiful lands, I live in Florida and it's all swampy, but I love Florida anyway:supergrin: .. especially the excellent self defense laws we have set in place. However, Florida's self defense laws being immediatley released in the UK would not help the UK.

I hope we continue to be friends and I sure would like to visit some of those fantastic cities over there.

TommyT
05-25-2006, 11:19
Originally posted by HeavyRevolver
Hello everyone,

This has been an interesting thread and for the most part a good discussion with both sides having valid points.

I will say one thing and that is you UK guys have it made in terms of beautiful lands, I live in Florida and it's all swampy, but I love Florida anyway:supergrin: .. especially the excellent self defense laws we have set in place. However, Florida's self defense laws being immediatley released in the UK would not help the UK.

I hope we continue to be friends and I sure would like to visit some of those fantastic cities over there.

Cheers buddy. Any of my American cousins would be more than welcome at my house. ;)

I'm looking to visit sunny Florida later in the year for a holiday. Florida is VERY popular with us pale faced Brits looking for some sun! :cool:
Oddly enough we're entering the worst drought for 100 years here. Hosepipe bans are in force and many of the reserviors are running on empty! :shocked:

Ian
05-25-2006, 11:31
Hey I am just North of Fort Lauderdale.
You could shoot when you are here if you would like.
There is USPSA (IPSC), IDPA, or Steel shoots here, pretty much every week.
If you would like to try wakeboarding (most Brits are crazy and like it :freak: ) there is a great Cable-Ski near, as well as one in Orlando.
Also in Orlando is a Sky Diving simulator.
Backgammon Tournament every week in Fort Lauderdale.
What are your hobbies?
You can see what mine are:)

TommyT
05-25-2006, 12:27
Originally posted by Ian
Hey I am just North of Fort Lauderdale.
You could shoot when you are here if you would like.
There is USPSA (IPSC), IDPA, or Steel shoots here, pretty much every week.
If you would like to try wakeboarding (most Brits are crazy and like it :freak: ) there is a great Cable-Ski near, as well as one in Orlando.
Also in Orlando is a Sky Diving simulator.
Backgammon Tournamnet every week in Fort Lauderdale.
What are your hobbies?
You can see what mine are:)

I enjoy shooting - mostly shotguns, but also air rifles (obviously not had a go at handguns, but would love to!)

Also into computing, keeping fit and travelling - been all over Europe, Texas, the Far East and Australia. :cool:

..... Oh, and catching Bad Guys! :rollsmiley:

HeavyRevolver
05-27-2006, 01:53
Originally posted by TommyT
I enjoy shooting - mostly shotguns, but also air rifles (obviously not had a go at handguns, but would love to!)

Also into computing, keeping fit and travelling - been all over Europe, Texas, the Far East and Australia. :cool:

..... Oh, and catching Bad Guys! :rollsmiley:

Well Tommy if you are ever in Florida I would take you shooting since you expressed an interest in trying out a handgun, they even let you rent rangetime with sub-machine guns here and that's quite a rush! There were some guys from northern England in the range I practice at going at it with a WW2 Sten gun and taking pictures of themselves shooting and what not.

Florida also has thousands of gyms so you could get a good workout in your stay here. The best time to come would be in the fall/winter, the weather is just perfect about in the 60's and 70's fahrenheit.

I would also vouch with what you said about Britains firearm squad as being one of the best in the world, they are instructed by SAS soldiers often and those guys are very hardcore, walking lethal weapons, just like our Grey Fox soldiers.

TommyT
05-27-2006, 12:12
Originally posted by HeavyRevolver
Well Tommy if you are ever in Florida I would take you shooting since you expressed an interest in trying out a handgun, they even let you rent rangetime with sub-machine guns here and that's quite a rush! There were some guys from northern England in the range I practice at going at it with a WW2 Sten gun and taking pictures of themselves shooting and what not.

Florida also has thousands of gyms so you could get a good workout in your stay here. The best time to come would be in the fall/winter, the weather is just perfect about in the 60's and 70's fahrenheit.

I would also vouch with what you said about Britains firearm squad as being one of the best in the world, they are instructed by SAS soldiers often and those guys are very hardcore, walking lethal weapons, just like our Grey Fox soldiers.

I went to an East European country a couple of years back and got to have a go with an AK47. Good god that's one hellova bit of kit. No wonder it's so popular all around the world. It's cheap, simple, reliable and DEADLY!

As for our fireams teams, yes, they are very impressive.
Their level of training and experience is, quite simply, second to none.

I've just finished reading this book .....

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/075351110X.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

It was a riveting read. I particularly liked the references to the Superintendant in charge of the SO19 training unit, who had the affectionate nickname of "Fifty Fu**s", due to the amount of verbal ammunition he threw at people!
I can highly recommend the book. It shows, in depth, what the life of a fireams officer is like. The highs, the lows, the comradeship - it's all in there.

SO19 is the Metropolitan Police (which polices London) elite firearms unit (equivalent to a US SWAT team.)


Just found THIS VIDEO (http://www.filecabi.net/video/hoolibrit.html) , which demonstrates perfectly what the average British cop has to deal with week-in, week-out. Unfortunately, it's all too common in most towns and cities up and down the country at weekends.
Mind you, I do like the soundtrack to the video! :supergrin:

Hugh Neal
05-28-2006, 06:32
What a depressing video. I did notice that several of the clips appeared to be of the same incident filmed from different surveillance camera angles. What also springs to my mind in each case, if the cameras were up, running and being actively monitored by security staff, where were the Police? I cannot see the point in the UK having the most heavily security monitored society in the world (for our American friends, London alone has more surveillance cameras than the whole of North America, including Canada combined). The UK also has the most sophisticated computerised car licence plate reading and tracking system in the world - a legacy of the IRA conflict, when much optical character recognition software was pioneered in the UK.

What is the point of having this if you don't give the Police enough resources to actually stop the violence as it is happening? It is all very well being able to use the video evidence in court, always supposing the scumbags are actually caught, which often seems not to be the case, or if they are, the incompetence of the Crown Prosecution Service or the weakness of the Judiciary usually means the offender gets let off pretty much scot free.

Many town centres are becoming "no-go" areas after dark - I can speak from personal experience. Even locally, Police and Community Support Officers are deployed as a deterrent to physical violence breaking out at the local bus station, when groups of Chavs and schoolkids (often one and the same) hang out, illegally drinking and quite openly both taking and selling drugs (seen this first hand on a number of occasions). If you try and do anything, you risk getting stabbed or shot - and some are only 13 or 14 years old. I wish I was exaggerating for effect, but I am not. TommyT, I am referring to Bexleyheath Broadway - I am sure you are familiar. It has got so bad in Bexleyheath that buses do not stop in the area after 10pm due to the level of physical violence and verbal abuse. It is not some deprived run down inner city area; it is a relatively wealthy middle class outer South East London suburb.

On a slightly different angle, a work colleagues' husband is a member of SO19; he joined last year about two month's before the July 7th bombings. From what she tells me they are extremely stretched right now. Anyway, I think I should get off my soap box for a bit...

Laserlips
05-28-2006, 07:26
Solution to British gun crime:

Arm all leo's with:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_5265.jpg




Well, maybe not..
:uglylol:

Best Wishes,

J.P.

UK Pro Gun
05-28-2006, 08:01
Solution to British gun crime:

Arm all lac's (Law abiding citizens, i.e. ME!) with:

http://www.polstargroup.com/firearms/Just%20Shotguns%20/870marinemag.jpg

Well maybe YES, actually BIG bloody yes!

:soap: :soap: :soap:

Have a nice day,

:alien: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :alien:

Hugh Neal
06-06-2006, 09:49
I know this is off topic, but what the hell...


Fully auto Glock with a drum magazine modification (*drool*.... I want one....)

A little bit more zing than my Glock 17 before the ban.

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/auto_glock_with_drum.wmv

Hugh Neal
06-06-2006, 22:41
Oh dear - for some reason it does not like linking. Sorry.

Hugh Neal
07-23-2006, 13:00
Well, this thread has gone a bit quiet. I am not sure what the rules are relating to cross posting, so here goes:

http://arthurpewtysmaggotsandwich.blogspot.com/

Hugh.

Hugh Neal
07-24-2006, 09:44
Well, surprise surprise - an (almost) fair report from the BBC News website about target rifle shooting in Britain. Their reporter visited Bisley, the home of UK rifle shooting. See what you think here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5209632.stm

Norske
08-29-2006, 10:54
I came across this two years ago and printed a copy. It was from "news.scotsman.com". Specifically, the entire address was "http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id-2687311". When I type that address in now it does not go to the article. Some of you who are more net-savvy than I may be able to drill down to it, but take my word for it, this is a verbatim copy of the article.

Begin Quote:

"PA News. Tue. 23 March, 2004

“MAN WHO KILLED ARMED INTRUDER JAILED EIGHT YEARS.

By Will Batchelor, PA News.

A man who stabbed to death an armed intruder at his home was jailed for eight years today.

Carl Lindsay, 25, answered a knock at his door in Salford, Greater Manchester, to find four men armed with a gun.

When the gang tried to rob him he grabbed a samurai sword and stabbed one of them, 37-year-old Stephen Swindells, four times.

Mr. Swindells, of Salford, was later found collapsed in an alley and died in hospital.

Lindsay, of Walkden, was found guilty of manslaughter following a three-week trial at Manchester Crown Court.

He was sentenced to eight years’ imprisonment.

After the case, Detective Chief Inspector Sam Haworth said: “Four men, including the victim, had set out purposefully to rob Carl Lindsay and this intent ultimately led to Stephen Swindell’s death.”

“I believe the sentences passed today reflect the severity of the circumstances.”

Three other men were charged with robbery and firearms offences in connection with the incident, which took place in February last year.”

End Quote.

Compare this to a recent incident that happened here in Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

An ex-US Marine, working late as a waiter in a local restaurant, was walking to his girl-friend's home after work, after dark. He is originally from the New York City area and is evidently more than normally what Americans call "street smart".

He was targeted for attack and probably, robbery by a 5-person "crew" in a car. When he identified the motions of the car to be hostile, he started running and yelling "Fire".

(Often here in the States, someone hearing a call of "Fire" will be more likely to call the universal Police/Fire/Medical emergency telephone number "911" than they will if they hear a call of "Robbery". Since Police will probably respond to a "Fire" call anyway, you are more likely to get a faster Police response that way in a situation like this.)

While he ran he also pulled a locked-blade folding knife out of his backpack.

The 5 assailants got ahead of him, cut him off, piled out of their vehicle, surrounded him, and the fight began.

Between them the perpetrators were armed with a SHOTGUN and a .380 Automatic pistol.

In the ensuing fight he KICKED the shotgun out of one assailants' hands while he knifed at least two of them. The assailant with the .380 did not get any shots off; I am not sure why not.

One of the two assailants, a 17-year old female, later died. The others were arrested at a hospital soon after.

Now, here in Atlanta, this guy was hailed as a HERO for several days. One of the first things "official" statements said was that NO CRIMINAL CHARGES would be pressed against him for among other things, having killed a teenaged female in self-defense.

So, my British friends.

In the UK, One gun AND Four to One odds versus a samurai sword results in one perpetrator dead and the DEFENDER getting 8 years in prison for manslaughter.

Whereas,

In the USA, a Shotgun AND a .380 handgun AND Five to One odds versus a folding knife results in one perpetrator dead and the DEFENDER being hailed as a hero and NO criminal charges pressed.

I would be very interested in your perception and analysis of the differing results of these two very similar incidents?

:headscratch:

UK Pro Gun
09-03-2006, 05:34
I would be very interested in your perception and analysis of the differing results of these two very similar incidents?

It's the difference between being a "CITIZEN" of the United States of America and being a "SUBJECT" of Great Britain.

BTW I use the term "Great" loosely... :steamed:

Hugh Neal
09-04-2006, 13:10
I concur with UK Pro Gun; we in the UK are not citizens, we are subjects of the Crown - we only have what legal rights the Government chooses to award us. Don't forget that we don't have a written constitution as such.

There have been other, more widely publicised cases, such as the farmer Thomas Hamilton who interrupted two violent burglars raiding his isolated Norfolk farm house and shot one of the bad guys dead. He ended up in jail too.

You have to bear in mind, that the general attitude of the British public is "only criminals have guns, therefore if you have a gun you must be a criminal". Things are VERY different to the U.S. Social and political policy in the U.K is diametrically opposite to that in the U.S. Victims are presumed guilty and the perpetrators innocent in a vast majority of cases; Policies held by the U.S Democrat party would be deemed close to fascist by the left wing Labour Government. Air rifles are about to come under firearms restrictions (basically banned in all but a small handful of cases) and replica and toy weapons are getting close to being banned too.

More details on my opinions and views can be viewed here:

http://arthurpewtysmaggotsandwich.blogspot.com/

All views are my own and do not reflect opinons or policy on Glock talk. Your mileage may vary.

Archangel Mike
09-07-2006, 17:57
Here in the States, if you are faced with a "threat of death or grave bodily harm" you are permitted to use any force necessary, including LETHAL force, against your attacker to reverse the threat he poses to your health and continued life.

If you DO kill an attacker in self-defense, your actions will first be reviewed by what is called the "District Attorney" or "DA"; the governmental attorney who is responsible for the prosecution of criminal charges for crimes that occur in his district.

If he decides that criminal charges SHOULD be pressed, in a case involving a death the case will be reviewed by a Judge and "Grand Jury" who usually agree with the DA that the criminal charges should continue to trial. However, the Grand Jury CAN return a "No Bill" decision and overrule the DA.

In the Atlanta case Norske cites, evidently the local DA reviewed the case and immediately decided that the ex-Marine/waiter was justified in his self-defense actions, even though they resulted in the death of one of his attackers. He did not press any charges, much less proceed to impanel a Grand Jury.

Mr. Lindsay, faced with 4 to 1 odds and a gun, chose to fight, and killed an attacker. For this, he gets 8 years for manslaughter.

Under the British legal system, what SHOULD he have done? Run? Simply invite them in and offer to help them carry his goods out? All the while HOPING that they won't kill him before they leave? What, exactly, SHOULD he have done in the eyes of the UK legal system?

What is the mind-set of the prosecutors, judges, and jury in a (Manchester) "Crown Court" assuming you have their equivilents that results in such a verdict?

Is there no concept of "justifiable homicide" in a case of self defense in the UK?

:headscratch:

:angel:

Hugh Neal
09-10-2006, 22:55
Hi chaps, sorry, I have not got time to post a detailed reply right now (getting ready to go to work). Story in today's Sun Newspaper:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006420092,00.html

Hugh.

Norske
09-12-2006, 12:46
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Hi chaps, sorry, I have not got time to post a detailed reply right now (getting ready to go to work). Story in today's Sun Newspaper:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006420092,00.html

Hugh.

I will restate Archangel Mikes question.

Has the UK legal system gone completely INSANE?

Is it totally composed of ANARCHISTS?

:headscratch: :headscratch:

UK Pro Gun
09-13-2006, 14:10
I will restate Archangel Mikes question.

Has the UK legal system gone completely INSANE?

The short answer is yes.
The long answer is a bit more complicated but here goes.

The UK is now run by the EU, (European commission) which wants to run all of Europe. The UK government had already started to give up Britain's sovereignty years ago when we first joined the common market but the government knows that there is more to come. A lot MORE!

The main obstacle to this is the indigenous people, i.e., us Brits! So what is the solution? Easy, make sure that all subjects, and yes folks we are subjects, learn how to be good victims and put up with all manner of cr*p dished up by muggers, murderer's rapist etc.

To that end the government has taken away all rights to self defence let alone any tools for self defence, i.e. firearms. Children and adults alike have been indoctrinated into fearing the “evil” firearms and believe in the holy ghost of Police defence for Joe Public!

In the great plan, which is accepted with gusto by the UN, all subject of the grand state of Europe will be defenceless sheep with only the “right” people allowed to defend themselves. These consist mostly of Politicians and big business. What a surprise!

So what are we doing about this?

Well mostly nothing.

What can we do about this?

One of two things as I see it, of course this being the internet that makes me an expert ;)

1: Emigrate. Hello USA I'm on my way! :patriot:

2: Vote BNP, British National Party, who are the only party with the balls to do something about the state of the country of which the first thing is to get out of the European Commission, followed quickly by the reintroduction of the right to self defence with any tool you see fit to use which would INCLUDE firearms!

There is a lot more involved than just this but you start to see what is going wrong here. So people of America, a little advice. KEEP THE 2nd AMENDMENT, and say NO to immigration.
Er, except me of course. I'm one of the good guys :)

Jerry
09-13-2006, 17:59
Originally posted by UK Pro Gun
So people of America, a little advice. KEEP THE 2nd AMENDMENT, and say NO to immigration.
Er, except me of course. I'm one of the good guys :)

It’s too bad we (the US) can’t work out a deal with the UK and Canadian. We’ll take all the people like you and give them all of ours that think like the rest. Now that would truly lead to utopia. A polite, intelligent, armed society that has no intension of doing each other harm and has the tools to see to it that it comes to pass. :thumbsup: :supergrin:

Ps. I’m still waiting for the flood of blood in all the states that have passed CCW. Brady bunch...:tongueout: