.416 Remington MAG Not Enough Gun - Field & Stream "Super-Guide" Mauled By GRIZZ [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Washington,D.C.
05-02-2004, 21:11
This just happened up in Alaska. Rifle in question is supposed to be a re-barrelled SAKO - pushfeed style instead of controlled feed. I guess the guide will trade it in for a 577 Express - or use Dixie Terminators in the future!

http://www.outdoorsdirectory.com/hunting.htm

http://www.outdoorsdirectory.c...s.htm

Hunting guide mauled by wounded brown bear

ATTACK: Scott Newman attributes incident to two cardinal errors.
By PETER PORCO

Anchorage Daily News
(Published: April 28, 2004)


Scott Newman, a hunting guide from Petersburg, recovers in the Sitka Community Hospital on Tuesday.

Scott Newman of Petersburg says he's naturally a calm person. He proved it Monday evening as a wounded brown bear on Admiralty Island crunched the bones of his left foot and moved up to chew on his leg while Newman methodically tried to free a jam in his rifle.

By the time the bear chomped on his inner thigh, Newman let go of the rifle and his hope for another shot and tried pushing the animal away with his hands. The bear then began cracking the bones of his right hand and forearm.

Newman, a 39-year-old hunting and fishing guide, told the story of his mauling Tuesday by telephone from his bed at Sitka Community Hospital. He was bandaged and in splints. Doctors had yet to close his puncture wounds, so as to let them drain. He was in a lot of pain, he said.

Nevertheless, he spoke matter-of-factly, going over details with precision, and blaming himself for two mistakes, neither of them very rare on guided hunts.

Newman has been guiding for 17 years, 12 of them as proprietor of his own business. He is called a "superb guide" on the Web site of Field & Stream magazine.

Monday was the last day of a 10-day bear hunt in the vicinity of Pybus Bay in the southeast corner of Admiralty, about 75 miles south of Juneau. His client was a textile businessman from Mexico City. Others on the trip included the client's wife; Newman's 15-year-old nephew, Levi Newman, who worked as his assistant guide; and a cook.

"We saw only 10 bears for the whole trip," Newman said. That included a decent-sized bear on the fifth day, which they let go. On Monday, from Newman's skiff on Little Pybus Bay, they spotted a boar along the beach of the small peninsula that separates the smaller bay from the bigger one.

"I parked the skiff downwind of the bear and we did our final stalk on foot," Newman said. The bear busied itself behind a bunch of driftwood logs. They'd see a leg, then its head. It seemed to back away.

Newman next made the first of his mistakes, he said: He left the side of his hunter and crawled toward the water for a better look. When the bear started climbing over the logs, the client became excited and fired two or three rounds.

"I wasn't able to whisper, 'Wait 'til he turns his side,'" Newman said. He now fired several rounds of his own, big 400-grain bullets from a .416 Remington Magnum.

"I think I got a frontal shot," he said. "I thought I really hit him hard. I was pretty confident he'd be dead" in the brush where the animal ran.

Now came what Newman considers his second mistake. It was 7 p.m. and would be dark in two hours. He didn't want to wait until morning to skin the bear, not with another hunt coming up in a few days. He decided then to follow it, to ensure it was dead and to skin the carcass while they had light.

Newman found a large pool of blood where the bear had been hit and a spoor leading away from the beach into the brush.

He zig-zagged across the trail, circling quietly. It was clear the bear was bleeding from both sides. Newman guessed it had been hit as many as half-a-dozen times.

"I was fairly concerned because he'd gone quite a ways. There was dark blood. I knew he was hurt, but I didn't think he was mortally wounded, so I probably had a live animal on my hands."

Newman was looking at the ground when he heard a twig break. He slipped the safety off and heard a low roar.

"He was ticked off," he said. "He appeared instantaneously. He looked like a freight train coming at me. I knew I had to make the shot really count. I took an extra split second, leaned into it and torched it off. I was fairly certain I hit him in the chest."

He worked the bolt to chamber a second round but "short-stroked it," jamming the rifle. "****," he said as the bear barrelled forward, knocking him down.

"Now I'm on my back kicking this bear in the head, trying to get him off me. He's biting my left foot, giving me a compound fracture, crunching the bones in my left leg. I'm trying to get my gun to work."

Newman feared that a bad tear in his thigh could sever the femoral artery, so when the bear bit him there, he switched tactics.

After the boar chomped his hands, however, it broke off suddenly, turned to the side, turned back as if still interested in Newman, but finally walked away.

"When he dropped down, he appeared very sick," Newman said. He thinks the bear, found dead later just yards from that spot, was then only moments from dying.

"It was that frontal shot at 10 feet," Newman said. "It was a mortal shot, and he had just another 30 seconds to live, and in the meantime he chewed on me very good."

As soon as the bear turned away, Newman grabbed his rifle and ran 25 yards away -- on adrenalin, he said.

"I sat down and started yelling for help, then realized I had my hand-held (radio) and called the Coast Guard. ... 'I need a helicopter now,' " he told them, worried still about the femoral artery.

The artery was intact, although Newman did lose a lot of blood. But he never lost consciousness.

"I had a definite sense of calmness. I was very calm about the whole thing. I don't know where it came from. That's just the way I am. I was never freaked out about it. I just knew what I had to do to get out of that situation."

Levi Newman and a man from a nearby lodge helped stabilize him until he was evacuated by Coast Guard helicopter 90 minutes after the mauling.

Levi also worked to skin the bear and get the hide and the others back to Petersburg on Tuesday evening.

The Associated Press
ADMIRALTY ISLAND, Alaska A hunting guide on a 10-day trip with a client was attacked by a bear near Pybus Bay on Admiralty Island in southeast Alaska.

Scott D. Newman, 39, of Petersburg was picked up from the island by a U.S. Coast Guard helicopter and taken to Sitka for treatment of multiple broken bones, Alaska state troopers said.

Newman, a licensed guide, told troopers he and his client were on the last day of their trip Monday when they spotted the bear, which they stalked to until they could get a good shot.

The client fired at the bear twice, and hit it, and Newman also fired at the bear.

The bear ran into some brush, and Newman followed. The bear turned and charged, troopers said, and Newman fired again.

The bear bit Newman on the legs and arms and then turned away and lay down, giving Newman a chance to pull out his radio and call for the Coast Guard for help.

AK_Stick
05-03-2004, 01:53
big thread on this at http://www.accuratereloading.com in the alaskan section, the 416 is enough gun, the hits were poor. I know of the guy, he's one hell of a guide, and has forgotten more about bears than I'll ever know

Scott H
05-03-2004, 06:30
Kinda makes the point for carring a back-up weapon, huh?

Smaug
05-03-2004, 07:07
That is one lucky guy.

Lucky it wasn't a grizzly or polar bear...

If I were him, I'd trade the bolt gun for a 450 Marlin lever gun... I guess you can still short-stroke them and screw it up, but maybe he would have gotten off another shot or something.

On the other hand, he is used to the bolt gun, so it may be best just to stick with that. I'm sure he will NEVER short stroke it again, hehehe.

WalterGA
05-03-2004, 07:31
Originally posted by Smaug
That is one lucky guy.

Lucky it wasn't a grizzly.....

Hahaha! What exactly do you think a "brownie" is? :) Looks to me like the bear was acting in a legitimate case of self-defense. Good for the bear!

JackFrost
05-03-2004, 08:51
Grizzly and Brown bears are the same bear just different areas. Grizzly bears are interior bears that feed on a lot of vegatation and are therefore smaller than Brown bears which are coastal and feed on more animals and fish. I have lived in Alaska all my life and have not seen or heard of any difference in aggressiveness between Brown and Grizzly bears.

http://www.bear.org/Grizzly/Grizzly_Brown_Bear_Facts.html

http://www.shadowofthebear.com/shebear.html

pangris
05-03-2004, 15:15
double tap

pangris
05-03-2004, 15:16
Originally posted by WalterGA
Hahaha! What exactly do you think a "brownie" is? :) Looks to me like the bear was acting in a legitimate case of self-defense. Good for the bear!

I have to say I don't disagree much. You **** with a bull, you get the horns, etc ad nauseum.

Paul

AK_Stick
05-04-2004, 00:12
brown bears are just as mean as a grizz, just in a different area, infact in the few I've seen, they are meaner, cuz there is less food, bears that get fish can eat just about any time they want, brownies hunt alot more for food, and are even meaner when somthing pisses em off. Smaller, often times yes, but they get just as big, and are just as dangerous.

WalterGA
05-04-2004, 07:38
Originally posted by AK_Stick
brown bears are just as mean as a grizz, just in a different area, infact in the few I've seen, they are meaner, cuz there is less food, bears that get fish can eat just about any time they want, brownies hunt alot more for food, and are even meaner when somthing pisses em off. Smaller, often times yes, but they get just as big, and are just as dangerous.

They're the same bears!

Bonk
05-04-2004, 10:56
That will definitely leave a mark. I'm sorry folks, if it's 1500 pounds and cranky, I ain't screwing with it.:)

eddie_zzzzzz
05-04-2004, 11:11
That's why so many of the folks I know use a semi-auto shotgun for
self defense after going to classes and seeing just how many folks really do "short stroke" it under pressure.

Sorry for the off topic.


Oh - One of thos ultra-lite .44 MAG in a hip holster would have been a good idea. :)

AK_Stick
05-04-2004, 15:25
;g walter, check my location, I know full well what a brown bear is.

They live in different areas, hence the different names, inland bears are grizz's and Brown Bears live in the costal areas.

Quake Guy
05-04-2004, 22:21
Yeah, working a bolt fast and true is a skill few people have anymore... Unless you were a British soldier during the World Wars with an Enfield, chances are you dismount your rifle when reloading the bolt...

Semi-automatic shotgun, lever action or double rifle are all better choices.

Also, where was his hunter. The best defense in such situations is another guy with a gun.

I think if a brown bear charges you, you will get knocked down one way or another...

AK_Stick
05-05-2004, 00:36
you can short stroke a lever, I've seen it happen under stress. Big bear at close range, with a 44 marlin, my father shot the bear 8 times and short stroked the 9th. levers and autos though, are not as good as a big bore bolt, because you can not put the large, heavy hitting rounds like 375 H&H, WBY, and up in them. Doubles are good, but if you need a 3rd round, your F-d

akbound
05-05-2004, 08:06
Originally posted by WalterGA
Hahaha! What exactly do you think a "brownie" is? :) Looks to me like the bear was acting in a legitimate case of self-defense. Good for the bear!

Good grief.....another "semi-informed" tree hugger!

dbrowne1
05-05-2004, 09:18
Sounds like a people problem, not a gun problem. The .416 with a 400 grain bullet isn't enough? Please.;Q

I'd like to know where the other guy was as well. And why an experienced guide wasn't carrying a backup (.44mag handgun, for example).

acpoulos
05-05-2004, 14:56
Or at least a knife to stick in it's eye while it was gnawing on him...

Tony

cerberus
05-05-2004, 15:38
Sometimes the Bears win.;Q There not just bunny rabbits.:)

Deaf Smith
05-05-2004, 16:53
The .416 is quite adequate. And the short stroking is a result of training (or lack of). When using a repeating weapon that requires user intervention to fire each shot (work bolt, work lever, pump forearm, etc...) you have to practice working the weapon HARD and all the way or else you will get it to short stroke. Lever actions will do this, pumps will do this, and I know bolts will to!

And yes, since he was a guide and in constant proximity to bears, a good handgun would seem like a rather logical idea. Any handgun from .357 mag and up. When that bear was munching on his leg, a good handgun would have saved him a lot of pain.

Lots of lessons here. Oh, and yes a simi-auto does 'remember' not to short stroke as long as you have good quality ammo. A simi-auto 12 guage is good bear defense.

Deaf

bkean
05-06-2004, 03:01
Double Barrel shotgun would have been a good option, with his client backing him up as another must.

AK_Stick
05-06-2004, 03:13
getting clients chewed on is a bad thing, thats why he put the guy back, he realized he'd make a mistake and was doing his best to rectify the error. a 12 sxs is nice, but it lacks the bone crunching power or long range accuracy of a large bore rifle

anomad
05-06-2004, 12:01
Originally posted by AK_Stick
;g walter, check my location, I know full well what a brown bear is.

They live in different areas, hence the different names, inland bears are grizz's and Brown Bears live in the costal areas.


I've never heard of that? The locals call them Brown's here around Fairbanks also. Tourists call them Grizzly Bears.

anomad
05-06-2004, 12:09
Originally posted by dbrowne1
Sounds like a people problem, not a gun problem. The .416 with a 400 grain bullet isn't enough? Please.;Q


You are exactly right.

In the article in the Alaska Daily New's the guide only blamed himself for the attack. He said he made two bad mistakes, leaving the client being the first and I don't remember the second.....
He wouldn't have needed a backup weapon if he hadn't made the first mistake.

akbound
05-07-2004, 04:41
I think the second mistake he said was "rushing the follow-up" on what he suspected was a "wounded" dangerous animal because he wanted to finish the job before dark. (Being in a hurry can get a person killed in many environments.)

Anyone that might contend that a properly constructed .416 caliber bullet of 400 grains at sufficient velocity is not "enough gun" for dangerous game has little understanding of facts. The .375 H&H with a similarly constructed 300 grain bullet at slightly higher velocity has been the BENCHMARK cartridge for dangerous soft skinned game for over a century. And with good reason! These rifles are entirely reliable for such situations when applied properly. The misapplication IS THE PROBLEM.

Any potentially dangerous animal that is wounded through poor shooting and then followed in a haphazard manner can indeed inflict terrible injury(ies) to the careless persons. (That is why it is considered Dangerous Game!) The guide admitted to his mistakes and made no attempt to blame either the rifle or the client. The client may have initiated the set of bad circumstances but the guide realized that it was his responsibility to remain in control of the client.....and the circumstances. That is part of why he earns his money.

As to the notion that the guide should have counted on the client for back-up........balderdash!!!!! No professional ever relies on their client for back-up! The professional is responsible for the safety of the clients, and never expects or places them in harms' way. (That's a good way to lose your license, your reputation, and finally your "shirt" in litigation.) If a professional should be lucky enough to have a client haul his fat out of the fire.....they just count it as a blessing (or sheer luck). But to count on it is foolishness!

The attraction of hunting potentially dangerous game......is the possibility that you may become the hunted! Sometimes you get the bear.......and sometimes the bear gets you! (And the more careless you allow yourself to become, the more likely you are to get hashed!)

Dave

Sidebar: That same attitude in the application of CCW can get you killed just as quick! You hear alot of "bravado" on some of these forums. Foolishness is a harsh master in any endeavor. And there is nothing more dangerous then some of the "predators" currently walking among us! A good lesson to be learned! It requires more than the mere possession of a firearm to make you safe. And here is one other harsh reality that is seldomed mentioned on any of these forums. YOU CAN DO EVERYTHING RIGHT........AND STILL GET KILLED! Don't ever think just owning and carrying a gun is a magic wand for your personal safety. Your brain, is your best weapon! ;l

Dave

noway
05-07-2004, 07:41
And now who wants to used their G20 load with 15rds rounds aganist a bear? ;g

BTW: I thought brown and grizzy are the same thing too. Brown bears include both the mainland bears ( aka Grizzy ) and the seperated & bind to the interior islands bears, know as Kodiak the bear. Both are considered Brown Bears and exhibit the same type of agression. Also since the interrior mainland bears have a wider field of food avaiable, they growth larger and live longer.

just my 0.02c thoughts.

akbound
05-07-2004, 11:42
Hi noway,

Actually the coastal Brownie's and those of the ABC's, Kodiak, and other islands are the larger of the species. The interior bears are smaller because of the speculation of a harder existence and less protein rich diet of their coastal relatives over thousands of years of evolution. (Kodiak Island holds the distinction of "the largest".) They are officially recognized as different animals based upon location, (with the realization that there is some overlap).

Dave

P.S. ABC's - Alaska speak for Afognak, Baranoff, Chicagoff. Below is a site that provides information about the Brown/Grizzly. (They are members of the same species, but location dictates size and "common name"....either Brown or Grizzly.)

http://www.adfg.state.ak.us/pubs/notebook/biggame/brnbear.php

Dogbite
05-08-2004, 06:29
WalterGa--good for the bear??? Those bad hunters!!!!Yeah ok.Hunting has been around alot longer than peta.