40 v. 357 Sig

[icwtumn]

I am relatively new to handguns. Can anyone give me some info on the significant differences between a .40 and a 357 Sig? I have never seen / shot a 357, but own a SW40. Are there advantages to owning or shooting the 357 Sig? I am curious becasue I am thinking of buying another Steyr while they are cheap, and can't decide between the M40 and the M357 (I have an S40 on order now-and can't wait to get it!!).

[flyandscuba]

Get the .357 Sig -- you'll like it. It is basically the ballistics of a .357 Magnum in an auto cartridge. A lighter, faster bullet with a flatter trajectory over longer ranges (not really an issue in most self defense situations).

Here is a link to a great reference site regarding this increasingly popular cartridge:

http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/

I have both the M40 and M357 and like them equally well. The .40 S&W is less expensive to shoot. However, when reaching for one of the Steyrs to carry -- I'll pick up the M357.

[mrapathy2000]

..

[flyandscuba]

40S&W can do anything 357sig can and more. 357sig is solution to no problem

Can't really agree with this. Their similarity ends with the fact that you can use most magazines chambered for either round in their respective pistols.

Read through the above referenced link and then try to find an opportunity to shoot both cartridges in a similar platform (Steyrs, Glocks, etc.) -- then decide. Maybe you can find a range that has rentals available to try.

As I said, I like both. But some of the lab testing data (www.ammolab.com), and the decision by agencies such as the United States Secret Service (USSS) to adopt the cartridge for their duty pistols convinced me that it was good enough for me.

I converted my Kel-tec P-40 over to .357 Sig and use it as a concealed carry weapon. The Steyr M357 when attire will provide concealment.

[mrapathy2000]

you forgot to mention what werewolf 357sig kills but 40S&W does not.

357sig not much advantage over 9mm,9mm+p,9mm +p+.

if USSS jumped in front of a bullet would you?

[flyandscuba]

The ballistic expert quoted below would disagree with you:

I’d like to discuss some excellent information from the www.ammolab.com forum group. This ammolab site specializes in testing ammo and is one of the top 9 firearms sites on the planet:

He has tested several thousand rounds of the usual 9, 40, 45, etc. When he tested the 357 Sig Winchester Ranger and Remington Golden Saber ammo, it did something only the 10mm Silvertip has been able to do. Both of these rounds cracked the top plate that holds the gelatin blocks in place during testing. It’s obvious that these 357 Sig rounds dump more energy into 12 – 14 inches of gelatin than most other rounds he has tested.

When he reinforced the top plates, the same two 357 Sig rounds mentioned above then cracked the lower plate. The best 9mm loads, such as the Ranger 127gr +P+ barely created a ripple in the gelatin in comparison.

[A 357 Sig carbine with a 16” barrel does not push a bullet near the dubious and partially out of date magical 2200 fps for energy to supposedly make a difference. Although at 1600 to 1700 fps, the 357 Sig round is absolutely devastating and I will not describe the effects here. At 1325 – 1450, the 357 Sig is downright impressive with duty pistols. It’s important to not only look at what the bullet did to the gelatin media (penetration, bullet expansion), but what the bullet does during actual impact as well. Both sides of the coin are important and one side will not disappear even though it’s ignored. This is not a vague plea since the bullet impact affect on gelatin can be seen, photographed, and measured.]

As we know, the United States Secret Service, the Department of Public Safety, and the Delaware State Police, to name a few, use the 357 SIG caliber, and the gentleman I’m paraphrasing has contact with a member of the shooting investigation teams of these three agencies.

His contact, an officer, stated that the Texas DPS troopers love the .357 Sig because it has produced the highest fatality rate of violent criminals, much better than anything else they have ever been issued ( including the .45). The 357 Sig has operated at 100% for every single shooting so far.

According to the annual shooting review board files, the 357 Sig is working at 99% for the Delaware State Police, which uses .357 Sig Speer GD ammo.

He also had an opportunity to review the USSS shooting files. They use the Ranger 125 grain load and report it’s the most effective pistol cartridge the USSS has ever been issued. The USSS has had four failures, all with Speer practice ammo. They are now using Winchester clean fire practice ammo.

From testing several thousand rounds of handgun ammunition, he believes that the statement, “Energy Transfer with handguns is a myth”, is only partially accurate. A few handgun rounds such as the 357 SIG caliber, actually transfer noticeable energy to the test medium, which can be seen, photographed, and measured by the distance gelatin blocks are moved, using an equal size and weight of gelatin block for each test. [These facts are observable and verifiable. The long skinny 9mm bullet using the “357 Sig engine” does indeed cause damage that the results of recovered bullets from gelatin cannot completely explain. Some of the more savvy agencies using the 357 Sig cartridge understand this.]

He stated that the .357 Sig is very close to becoming one of the finest auto pistol cartridges ever made. It works consistently over and over again. Police agencies from coast to coast are switching to it in droves because it truly offers everything that the 9mm +P+ had going for it, plus the penetration of the 147gr 9mm along with the capabilities that the disappointing .40 S&W "wonder cartridge" was supposed to have. In a medium frame/medium sized service pistol it offers everything that the .45acp can in terms of penetration and "stopping power" but it does it in a smaller package.

[Let’s look at a .40 and 357 Sig loading of somewhat equivalent ft-lbs of energy

"Federal .357 Sig JHP 125 grains - 1,352 fps velocity, 507 ft-lbs. energy, 169 power factor (momentum)
Winchester .40 S&W Silvertip 155 grains - 1,205 fps velocity, 500 ft-lbs. energy, 187 power factor (momentum)"

Well, if you look at the power factor of the two above loads in 357sig and .40, the .40 round is much harsher to shoot than the 357 Sig round, assuming the .40 and .357sig rounds are launching from pistols of similar size and weight.]

Summary

[Using a stronger jig to hold larger amounts of gelatin in place, as some do, can hide pertinent data. The purpose of bullet testing is to see the impact of the bullet in the medium as it happens, as well as view the end results of penetration and bullet expansion. Unlike clamped down gelatin in a lab, the body is not constrained by super strong immovable plates. So designing a jig and gelatin mix which is too strong and too large provides only partial data results and may hide other important facts.]

The 10mm is an excellent all-around auto pistol caliber, from plinking to self defense to hunting. Yet, the smaller and easier to shoot 357 Sig still offers penetration advantages for skilled law enforcement officers similar to the best 10mm ammo. And the 357sig has an excellent balance of size and ease of use for non experts as well.

Both the 10 and 357sig (at least in some loadings) produce excellent shock value (rapid energy transfer into the first 3” – 6” of gelatin), which caused the above mentioned plates to break.

Winchester spent well over a million dollars developing the 357 Sig RA357T design. Is the 357 Sig a wildcat cartridge? I think not. This ammo provides the excellent penetration of the Ranger T, but relatively shallow penetration of the previous USSS issue 9mm 115 gr. +P+ loads. Essentially, the bullet expands very consistently and does not over penetrate. And what makes this bullet stand out is the ability to send a major shock value (rapid energy transfer) into the first 3” – 6” of gelatin, resulting in a severe “pressure spike punch” that exceeded the load capacity of the 1” plywood plates, causing them to break. The 10mm round in question did the exact same thing.

[Agencies that have been using this round for years like it, even after firing millions of rounds. The newer agencies give it high marks. I’ve received emails from law enforcement officers attesting to the satisfaction of using the 357 SIG, along with some of the best shooting they’ve ever done with an auto pistol caliber. I’ve seen the effects of what the 357 SIG does at a practical pistol range. When it’s loaded with low recoil ammo in the 1120 fps range, an amateur can shoot just as fast and accurately as anyone else; yet, the loud boom (low supersonic range) has an interesting psychological effect on the crowd that screams, “Be afraid even if I miss”. Lower velocities below 1000 fps with a 147 grain bullet can of course cut down on blast if so desired. The 357 Sig has been known to gouge metal pepper poppers. The special bottlenecked funnel effect of pushing the 9mm bullet down range can develop a major quick transfer into the first 3 – 6” of media to create a major “pressure spike punch” into the target. The street stats of agencies and my own observation at the range show that the 357 SIG doesn’t care what detractors say. It just works really well.


source - http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/357.defend.htm

Bottom line: Don't knock it if you don't have it!

Speaking of which, in addition to my M357 -- here's a pic of my other .357 Sig. -- undoubtedly the smallest - lightest 10-round .357 Sig in existence!;f

[LewisQ]

Wife has 6 guns in 357 SIG and she can say enough good things about it. I only have 4 because I have another 3 in 10 mm ;-)

[icwtumn]

flyandscuba -----

Thanks for the information. I am going to make a decision in the next week or two and will definitely seek more info on the 357 Sig. I am partial to the .40 because that is what I am familiar with, but it sounds like there might be better options.

[flyandscuba]

Sorry that your original question drifted into shootin' match.

Your original question seemed to be, "Should I buy an M40 or an M357? I already have an S40 on order."

Here's my recommendation for another reason...

You've got the Steyr in .40 S&W coming already. You want to pick up another one because they are a good deal right now. I can only assume that you'd like to see these guns go up in value over time, correct?

Again, buy the M357. There are fewer of them out there -- making them slightly more valuable on the market now. No more M357s will be landing on US shores. The "S357" never made it out of the factory, whereas the S40 will continue to be produced. I predict that when the M-A1 comes onto the US market, few -- if any -- will be offered in .357 Sig. Thus, continuing the relative "rareness" of this offering -- causing the value of the M357 to climb even higher.

I predict, within a decade -- gun for gun -- the M357 will be more valuable than the M40 on the open market. Simply because of pure economics, supply versus demand.

[Flashpoint]

I gonna implament a thread cross over. I presented this same question, more or less, on THR earlier this week.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82015

[noway]

suggestion: why don't you get both and then decide on your own?


IMHO: If you don't know what want you really want , then asking over the internet isn't really going to do you any good. Most that anybody can offer are the #s between the 2 and their opinions.

I have a M40 with M357 spare barrel. let me put it to you very simple and straight, I'm a fan of the 40sw and just like my previous g23 & 32 conversion the 357sig has got least used and is actually collecting dust as I speak.

[icwtumn]

Acquiring both is a great thought, but I am financially restricted from doing so right now. Can the Steyr M357 be converted into a 9mm with a barrel change only? What about vice versa (M9 to .357 Sig)?

Thanks for the help!

[flyandscuba]

Yes, on both questions. However, your mags may need to be adjusted. .40 S&W and .357 Sig mags are identical, except for the imprint on the side. The 9mm mags have slightly different feed lips.

Also, the barrel is about $175.

[icwtumn]

Ouch. If the barrel alone costs $175, how can the entire guns be sold for only $300?

Does this same theory hold true for a switch between .40 and .357 in terms of barrels? If this is the case, I understand that I could, for example, buy an M40, buy an separate M357 barrel, and use the same magazines for both?

[flyandscuba]

Yes, correct -- you could.

That's why I thought about buying an S40 amd an M357 barrel -- to have trimmed down in order to make my own S357...

[icwtumn]

Coooool......thanks!

[mrapathy2000]

..

[flyandscuba]

icwtumn,

Hopefully, you now have more information for an educated decision -- rather than just being more confused.

No matter what you decide, buying another Steyr is a good decision!

As for me, I think I'm gonna go to the safe and dig out my .44 Special.... 'cause its got a bigger, heavier bullet..;Q

flyandscuba -- who's not "apathetic" about any pistol caliber! ^b

[icwtumn]

Thanks, really. Educated debate is the best way to explore various dimensions of a concept. It is obvious that the original question is somewhat loaded and will spark a variety of opinions, but that is what makes these types of forums so much fun and quite useful. If one person had all the answers, I could just ask him or her.....no need for a forum.:cool:

[noway]

{Ouch. If the barrel alone costs $175, how can the entire guns be sold for only $300? }

My barrel cost me $140.00 and that include shipping cost. It was actually cheaper than my std glock 32 barrel for my G23.