16 rounds of .40 versus 11 rounds of .45GAP? [Archive]

Glock simply the best

05-24-2004, 13:37

Why 11 when you can have 16? What are you going to stop with 16 rounds that you couldn't stop with 11? I like my high capacity 9s. However, they're not what I keep next to my bed (even though -and it's sad that I even have to ad this- I do believe the 9mm can be plenty effective).

As far as why buy a whole new gun and caliber setup at the expense of... If that were the issue, people would only need one caliber and there'd be no point to owning multiple calibers. However, as you certainly know, each is unique.

I adore my G27. However, the idea of a gun with the same size frame, a bullet that on avg. may even have a slightly wider expanded diameter (and wider if it doesn't expand), a very low pressure (in comparison), and possibly even superior accuracy is well worth the (oh, no) horrible missery associated with all our worst nightmares----acquiring another GLOCK.

Yes, I was a bit sarcastic. I suppose my point is simply that if we didn't stop em with 11 rounds of GAP, we would probably not do it with 16 rounds of .40 in MOST hand-gun appropriate situations. So why give up rounds? Do do the same thing and maybe do it a little bit better and in more comfort. By the way, my G27 will still be my all time favorite CCW. I adore the little guy.

Glock simply the best

05-24-2004, 13:55

Why 11 when you can have 16? What are you going to stop with 16 rounds that you couldn't stop with 11? I like my high capacity 9s. However, they're not what I keep next to my bed (even though -and it's sad that I even have to ad this- I do believe the 9mm can be plenty effective).

As far as why buy a whole new gun and caliber setup at the expense of... If that were the issue, people would only need one caliber and there'd be no point to owning multiple calibers. However, as you certainly know, each is unique.

I adore my G27. However, the idea of a gun with essentially the same size frame (I'm talking about the grip and trigger reach), a bullet that on avg. may even have a slightly wider expanded diameter (and wider if it doesn't expand), a very low pressure (in comparison), and possibly even superior accuracy is well worth the (oh, no) horrible missery associated with all our worst nightmares----acquiring another GLOCK.

Yes, I was a bit sarcastic. I suppose my point is simply that if we didn't stop em with 11 rounds of GAP, we would probably not do it with 16 rounds of .40 in MOST hand-gun appropriate situations. So why give up rounds? In most practical application, it'll do the same thing and maybe-just-maybe do it a little bit better and probably in a little more comfort. By the way, my G27 will still be my all time favorite CCW. I adore the little guy.

WalterGA

05-24-2004, 14:44

Originally posted by thaddeus
16 versus 18 rounds is arguable. But 16 versus 11 rounds in teh same gun? The .40 seems to be a far better choice in that scenario, and the .40 is a very effective caliber.
Once again, there must be something really great about the .45 GAP to cause people to go buy a whole new gun and caliber setup, even at the expense of losing firepower.

You sure about that I.Q.??? :)

M96er

05-24-2004, 17:50

First off if you need more than 10rds to defend yourself you need to either get a change of lifestyle, go into the witness protection program, wear class-3 body armor at all times, or change your place of residence.

Second of all, you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your gun. Shot placement and accuracy over "spray and pray" is the safest advice for you and yours in this day and age. The fewer rounds you pump into an aggressor, the less chance the bad guy will be portrayed as the victim and you a murderer.

A .45 caliber bullet enters the body with a .45 diameter hole and if it's a good defense load expands to .70-.80 "usually". A .40 caliber bullet enters the body with a .40 diameter hole and if it's a good defense load expands to .60-.70 "usually". A question to ask is what rate does this expansion take place. Do you get full expansion before the bullet hits the internal organs, or does it expand after it passes vital organ centers. Using loads of similar weight in both the .40 and .45gap, the GAP has a slight velocity advantage causing more rapid expansion. So with the GAP you get a bigger hole going in, rapid expansion on tissue.......so all in all, a greater probability of the projectile damaging a vital organ, nerve, artery.....etc.

There is less report, less recoil, and less muzzle flash. Like the .45acp, I can shoot the .45gap without ear protection better than I can the .40. Sure my ears ring, but I'm not deaf for 1-2mins when I might need to be able to hear. Recoil with similar loads is lighter with the GAP than the .40. So, you can achieve faster follow-up shots should your initial shots miss their mark. Besides the G17, I find the G37 the easiest to control of all GLOCKs full sized pistols.

thaddeus

05-25-2004, 01:55

Originally posted by M96er
First off if you need more than 10rds to defend yourself you need to either get a change of lifestyle....

That is extremely poor argument, but let's let that one slide for another forum.

Second of all, you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your gun. Shot placement and accuracy over "spray and pray" is the safest advice for you and yours in this day and age. The fewer rounds you pump into an aggressor, the less chance the bad guy will be portrayed as the victim and you a murderer.

Heck, I guess I'll just go ahead and carry 10-rounders for all my guns. Or matter of fact, just to increase my accuracy and to make the public safer, and make me look nicer in court, I will only load my mags with 5 rounds. Surely 5 rounds should be plenty to defend myself. Maybe even 3 rounds could get me by.

Sorry for the trite responses, I just think those are very slippery arguments, bordering on anti-gun, and not real logical in a fight for your life.

There is less report, less recoil, and less muzzle flash. Like the .45acp, I can shoot the .45gap without ear protection better than I can the .40. Sure my ears ring, but I'm not deaf for 1-2mins when I might need to be able to hear. Recoil with similar loads is lighter with the GAP than the .40. So, you can achieve faster follow-up shots should your initial shots miss their mark. Besides the G17, I find the G37 the easiest to control of all GLOCKs full sized pistols.

Interesting. You like the big bullet, low report, and less flash (which really depends on load).

I would like to see if the 45GAP is a more accurate round than others. Short cartridges seem to be less accurate than long ones in what I have seen. I have noticed that people tend to pump up new rounds, so I am not surprised to hear that it "is more accurate" in initial tests.

Hope I am not storming in here like a troll, I have no intent to start arguments.

I think the best point was made in jest by "Glock Simply The Best" when he said that it is good enough reason to buy a new Glock.

At this point I feel about the .45 GAP like I did about the G37: Why would I carry a Glock 37 with 7 rounds from a short barrel when I can carry a Glock 23 with 14 rounds from its optimum barrel length?

---------------------------------------------------------

Another thing to consider is that comparing similar barrel lengths the .40 will have an edge up. Most .40 ammo tests are out of a 4 inch barrel. So, out of a full size .40 gun you get even a little more edge.

I am not hung up on the .40 but I do know it is a very effective round, and I find it hard to believe that a .45 (ACP or GAP) from the same length barrel has any advantage. .....And this is coming from a .45 fan that carries a .45 ACP every day.

Haycreek

05-25-2004, 06:18

Hmmm, if you just want to argue, go tell a bench rest shooter that a long round is always more accurate than a shorter round !

M96er

05-25-2004, 07:30

Originally posted by thaddeus
That is extremely poor argument, but let's let that one slide for another forum.
Is it Rambo? Better go get a belt fed conversion for your GLOCK then.*rolls eyes*
Originally posted by thaddeus Heck, I guess I'll just go ahead and carry 10-rounders for all my guns. Or matter of fact, just to increase my accuracy and to make the public safer, and make me look nicer in court, I will only load my mags with 5 rounds. Surely 5 rounds should be plenty to defend myself. Maybe even 3 rounds could get me by.

Sorry for the trite responses, I just think those are very slippery arguments, bordering on anti-gun, and not real logical in a fight for your life.[/B]
Hehe, few would refer to ME as anti-gun. It reminds me of the NAACP calling Bush a racist for his across the board tax cuts. Your asinine responses lead me to believe you are indeed a troll.
Originally posted by thaddeus Interesting. You like the big bullet, low report, and less flash (which really depends on load). [/B]

Report is a function of case pressure, velocity, and charge. Just going by case pressure, the .40 at 35,000psi is rather loud versus the .45gap at 21,000-23,000psi. Flash, even in the full power loads of the GAP are minimal.

Frankly by your attitude you do not seem interested in exploring the various aspects of the GAP and are here to troll, or/and use magazine capacity as your sole arguement with any hint of merit to support your favority cartridge. Hey, some ppl need 15rds. Some ppl need a shot gun to hit anything.;Q If it makes you feel any better, I'm hearing talk from the industry that 11 or even 12rds may be possible in the G37 with some tweeking. However, I still get the hint that you are more of the "spray and pray" mentallity.....basically screw the bystanders and collateral damage. I fear for the rights of all gun owners should you ever use your firearm in defense.

I direct you to Pete's website for a good bit of info on the GAP:
www.45gap.com

If you are indeed interested in learning about the GAP in an effort to understand its appeal, go there. If not, enjoy your trolling.

Rikki

05-25-2004, 08:16

You said...

"At this point I feel about the .45 GAP like I did about the G37: Why would I carry a Glock 37 with 7 rounds from a short barrel when I can carry a Glock 23 with 14 rounds from its optimum barrel length? "

I GOT '37 and mine holds 10+1 and hasn't got a "short barrel" and it IS a .45 GAP.

I can just FEEL the anger in your post! MAN, you're swinging for the fences with your eyes closed! Yor anger is fueling all sorts of mistakes. Take a deep breath and relax...Back off the "body armor, 14+1 and witness protection pgm...for Christ's sake, man, it's JUST a new caliber...that has (pls read carefully) THE SAME GRIP SIZE as what we're used to carrying.
Take your rants on the 45GAP-vs45ACP-vs40cal to "caliber corner" or maybe another forum?

DannyR

05-25-2004, 08:46

Thaddeus,

I've had a G37 since September 2003 and prefer shooting it over any of my full sized Glocks. I've even sold my beloved G30. The G37 grip just fits my small hands better, even better than a G36. I prefer the expansion of a .45 over any other caliber, but I own pistols chambered in .380, 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP and .45GAP, as well as revolvers in .357 Magnum. Each firearm serves a specific purpose for me.

There is no universal handgun or universal caliber.

This is not the place to debate magazine capicity or caliber choice.

You do not have to buy a G37. You do not have to give up your .40S&W.

I will also go on record as saying that anyone that believes he/she cannot survive a personal defense gunfight with less that 11 rounds has watched too many action movies and TV. It is difficult to get off more than 6 aimed shots in 2 seconds, which is about all the time you have. Your assailant has more time because you have been pre-selected as a target. In gun games, they do not return fire, but in real life they do.

My carry weapons, depending on the situation/dress code/apparel are: G37 10+1, G26 10+1, S&W640 .357Magnum, 5 rounds period. My .380 is a well made toy to show people that a .380 recoils just as much as a 9mm, if not more. My interior home defense weapon is a Mossberg 12 gauge loaded with Federal's Personal Defense 00. My property defense weapon is a scoped AR-15.

You have been a member of the Glock Talk Community for a long time, so please show some consideration for folks that have come to prefer the G37. Variety is the spice of life.:cool:

GMT

05-25-2004, 10:55

Originally posted by DannyR
For the same reason that one would buy a 16 round 40 when they could have an 18 round 9mm.

It's not a capacity issue. It's a bullet diameter issue. Better question might be "Why would someone buy a 7+1 Model 1911 .45acp when they can now buy a 10+1 round G37?"

Danny knows the deal. You should take any advice he offers.
GT

WalterGA

05-25-2004, 13:18

NO, a "better" question would be, "why would somebody buy an 8-rd. 1911 when one can get 14 rounds of the Real Deal in a G21?" :)

I believe some of you guys would defend buying a two-shot derringer, if Gaston built one, and it just happened to be the "nouveau Glock" de jour. :)

DannyR

05-25-2004, 14:36

I have the Real Deal G21 with four pre-ban mags, but I prefer the feel of my G37.;)

engineer151515

05-25-2004, 16:21

Originally posted by WalterGA
....I believe some of you guys would defend buying a two-shot derringer, if Gaston built one, and it just happened to be the "nouveau Glock" de jour. :)

That's good Walter.

But...

we know ....

you're hiding that G37 somewhere! :)

DannyR

05-25-2004, 17:15

WalterGA has a plan. He is trying to scare someone into selling him a used G37 for $300.00 or less. He felt the same was about 9mm Glocks, but now he has two.;)

Glock simply the best

05-25-2004, 18:46

I still don't know what hand-gun appropriate defense situations are going to require 16 vs. 11 rounds. Please understand, I like to carry as often as I can, and even often see doing otherwise as further exposing myself and others to the real risk of violent crime. That said we've got to be realistic in what we choose, for me I feel that the chances of being victimized are (VERY REAL BUT...) relatively slim to begin with, the chances of having to fire the gun after showing it are even slimmer, and the chances of losing because I had 11 rds. GAP but winning because I had 16 rds. of .40 have got to be exponentially slimmer and then some.

I do like high-cap mags, but it's not because I feel safer when I am armed with my guns that have high cap mags. I like them because when I am out shooting for fun I don't have to reload as often but that might be because I've got some of those fun stick way out the bottom 30 rounders for plinking ;Q .

If an overwhelming majority of defensive gun fights end in less than 11 rounds fired from one gun --which I would be inclined to believe is the case, I honestly don't know--, I'll happily reach for the gun that fits my hand and should in theory make the most of those rounds (even if by a slim margin), not the gun with the most rounds. I think there's a better chance for myself if really lucky in a panic, of hitting with 3 or 4 rounds than even getting to fire 11 let alone 16 before the mess is over...

If I were bogged down in Baghdad, surrounded by a mob, I would likely reach for the 16 rounds of .40...... BUT THEN, A HANDGUN WOULD BE THE LAST GUN I WOULD WANT.^2 ;I

As for the 10mm, it's too big for my hands and PERSONALLY, don't see it as a superior to the .40 for 2 legged defense when good rounds in .40 display the magic 12-18 inches penetration with nearly identical expansion at those depths--- I REALLY love my .44 Mag. but even if it shot as light as my .40s I wouldn't see it as superior to the .45 for PEOPLE defense.

In a nutshell, the above reasons (mine and those expressed by others) are my answer to your question regarding why I would be willing to buy a G37 from a tactical perspective.

Simply put, if you feel like the odds of needing the extra rounds are greater than all the other benefits the GAP offers, then the extra rounds of a HIGHLY EFFECTIVE .40 should continue to be your choice, if you can see the other benefits of the GAP as more likely useful than the extra rounds, then you can see the reason for the GAP and your questions are all answered.

If you're truly not trolling, I sure as heck can't give you anymore answer than this and sincerely hope it puts things in perspective at least to allow you to see mine as a new fan of the GAP. --I'm outta breath.

rsilvers

05-25-2004, 22:58

Originally posted by DannyR
question might be "Why would someone buy a 7+1 Model 1911 .45acp when they can now buy a 10+1 round G37?"

1911s are 8+1.

rsilvers

05-25-2004, 23:04

First of all, there are no 16 round magazines (cept' for used ones or LE).

The Clinton gun ban has CLEARLY made people switch from low power 9mms to more powerful pistols! That is a good thing (to us).

The idea is to pack 10 of the most powerful shots into a magazine. I believe the Clinton gun ban has been the reason that .45 has taken off more than ever.

When the AW ban sunsets, then 16 shots of .40 S&W will be a very valid option.

DannyR

05-25-2004, 23:11

I thought Commander sized 1911's were 7+1. My mistake.

rsilvers

05-25-2004, 23:15

Originally posted by DannyR
I thought Commander sized 1911's were 7+1. My mistake.

Oh, I am not sure about Commanders. Full size 1911s were originally 7+1 but are now mostly 8+1.

M96er

05-25-2004, 23:38

Originally posted by DannyR
I thought Commander sized 1911's were 7+1. My mistake.

They are, but there are quite a few newer model 1911s that use 8+1. However, the magazine is not flush with the bottom of the grip like the old Commanders.

rsilvers

05-25-2004, 23:42

All I know is, if I am gonna' carry a .45 1911, it will be a 5 real deal incher. If I want to move to a compact .45 to save weight, it would be a Glock 30 or 37 or 36 or something other than a 1911. I am trying to cut down on alloy frames also. I put my S&W 945 into the ultrasonic cleaner and the anodizing came off. It is at Smith now. Let's see if they give me a free refinish.

M96er

05-26-2004, 00:04

Originally posted by rsilvers
All I know is, if I am gonna' carry a .45 1911, it will be a 5 real deal incher. If I want to move to a compact .45 to save weight, it would be a Glock 30 or 37 or 36 or something other than a 1911. I am trying to cut down on alloy frames also. I put my S&W 945 into the ultrasonic cleaner and the anodizing came off. It is at Smith now. Let's see if they give me a free refinish.

Don't forget that GLOCK barrels have polygonal rifling which creates a better seal on the bullet. GLOCK barrels are considered "fast barrels" as they generate greater velocity than standard rifling like in 1911 pistols. So, a 4.5" GLOCK barrel is about equal to a standard 5" barrel. I actually clock slightly faster velocities out of my G21 than my 5" 1911 Colt Gold Cup using the same ammo.

rsilvers

05-26-2004, 06:37

A 4.6 inch Glock is clearly a full size pistol.

On the other hand, I replaced the barrel in my G20 with a 5.5 inch threaded barrel and get 796fpe average energy with Doubletab 165 GD.

SeanK

05-30-2004, 19:39

I'll buy it when a major law enforcement agency or the military adopt it, till now zip on both counts. LAPD is going to Glock 22's as we speak; they announced right when 45gap came onto the scene, they didn’t seem interested...

Its funny how smith and Wesson developed 40, which they would have never done if the FBI had not wanted it. If the FBI, one of the most prestigious law enforcement organizations in the world had not said to smith hay make this for us, 40 would be none existent. 40 was an answer to a problem, many reports of crack and PCP drug heads absorbing plenty of 9mm bullets and nothing happening. The FBI wanted a bullet with better stopping power, but didn’t want to sacrifice mag capacity. They knew 45acp was not the answer, to few rounds. They only wanted this after the Miami shot out, they had to learn the hard way. What sold 40 was probably the fact the most local police departments especially in big cities have a long standing rivalry with the FBI, if they moved onto something, the locals want it to.

45gap is an answer in search of a problem.

After the adoption of 40 by most of this counties Police, hollow point bullet designs really started to improve, I did some research and +P 9mm 115gr has 91% one shot stop, 40s&w 165gr 94%, 45acp did only 1 % point better at 95% 230gr. Got this off chuckhawks website and he said he got most of the data out of the handgun cartridge power book written by 2 experts.

40 s&w exploded onto the scene, police departments across the country dropped 9mm's out of their holsters like they were on fire.

Still some agency’s including the insanely large NYPD, Washington DC, and Chicago Police departments still use 9mm loaded very hot +P+. They seem happy with them.

.357 sig, who uses this caliber, hardly no one, Police in this country have already spent $$$ to switch to 40 and their here to stay. Its just too damn expensive to switch to a new caliber ever 5 years, hell this country was on 38 special for a hundred years!

45 GAP, makes me want to laugh, just what is this bullet supposed to do that 45, or 40 can't the experts know the answer, nothing. Alls it is a marketing ploy to impressionable civilians who want another gun to put into their collection. 45gap will be along side the 10mm, and 357 sig in no time. 20 years from now 40 will still be in police holsters, 45gap, 357 sig, and 10mm, only used here in the US by the way will be long gone.

rsilvers

05-30-2004, 20:25

The 45 GAP allows people who want a .45 caliber in a smaller grip and with a normal trigger reach. Simple.

Is the Glock 22 a great pistol? Yes, I love it. But if someone wants a .45, the ACP has proven to make beefy grips. Look at the Hk USP/45 Compact. Look at the new SW 45. All of these designs would benefit from the .45 GAP.

I don't believe I am defending the GAP. It does have downsides -- like it is new and not plentiful. But it *is* better than the ACP for the way people use defensive pistols.

SeanK

05-31-2004, 00:08

"The 45 GAP allows people who want a .45 caliber in a smaller grip and with a normal trigger reach. Simple."

You have described exactly what the 40s&w does, plus it gives far more bullets in the magazine. 45acp is only 1% better in stopping power; gap is going to be around the same hardly worth having 8 bullets less in a magazine. Gap and acp 45 have a vast disadvantage when it comes to mag capacity usually 7-8 compared to 15, they are only a tiny fraction better at stopping power.

I can't wait till the Magazine ban expires, once high caps are $15 again people will be again wanting high capacity smaller bullets again, trust me it will happen.

Here’s why gap came onto the scene, because 2 very close rival gun companies too glock in the US market Smith & Wesson and especially Sig Sauer have calibers named after them, glock felt left out. It’s a marketing ploy to civilians, this caliber was never meant to go to Police forces in this country that have already done a major overhaul in weapons, 40 is the best combination of stopping power and mag capacity, it will be the main stay of our police for many years if not as long as 38 special was. Because of the Magazine ban for a civilians, gun companies take a different approach in marketing. Police forces simply have a lot of other things to spend money on then buying new guns every time a gun company comes out with a new caliber that is in no way a significant improvement on what they have now.

Those guys who say if you need more then 10rds in a pistol you should have a rifle or shotgun, I totally agree for a civilian. As someone who only has a couple of years till a law enforcement carrier, I would never trust my life to a piece that holds less then 15rds, not when I can pull over someone with tinted windows and have them jump out with an Mac-10 or AR 15. Not after seeing the Miami shot out, North Hollywood reenactments. As being a civilan I took the liberty of spending a little extra money and bought a pre ban high cap for my Glock 22 just to be safe. With a glock only costing me 450, most 1911A1s good enough to trust my life to going for a around 6-700, I felt I made the right choice.

rsilvers

05-31-2004, 00:20

One shot stop data is problematic for several reasons. One is just that his data is not peer-reviewable and does not always add up. But the entire concept is flawed because there are too many variables such as shot placement, etc. Also the type of people who carry each caliber. The .380 might be made to look less effective because the people who carry it are worse shots than the people who carry .357. And why is the .44 Magnum so low on the list? Could it really be less effective, or is there some other factor?

I know that the debate is that 'real world data against people' is always better than gelatin, which is merely a simulation of human muscle -- but this is not really true as implemented because the variables with gelatin testing are well pinned down and repeatable.

That being said, the gelatin results of .45 are just a bit better than .40 S&W, so it does not disprove your point.

Some people want .45 diameter, for whatever reason. Maybe they like that it is 'pre expanded' more in case a hollowpoint clogs. So the .40 S&W does not satisfy someone who wants a .45.

But do I personally believe that the .45 is a better stopper than a .40? I personally think it is a hair better, but not worth the reduced capacity to someone who might be up against multiple attackers. I would carry either myself if I liked the pistol they were in.

I personally think a Glock 22 makes more sense than a Glock 37. But if some want a .45, the Glock 37 did allow for a smaller grip than a 21.

DannyR

05-31-2004, 04:31

One must keep an open mind and regognize that Glock is Global company serving the entire world and not just the USA. If you don't like the .45GAP, fine, that's your business. Why must immature people blast out against everything they dislike? Does it make them feel bigger? If you drive a Pontiac must you ridicule all Chevies? If you like Jimmy Johnson must you ridicule Rusty Wallace?

Why do American companies still make Model 1911 .45ACP pistols with such low magazine capacity? Will they all go out of business if the ban sunsets in September? Is Colt, Kimber, Smith & Wesson, Les Bauer, Springfield, Wilson, etc. doomed to cease production this year?

Did the .40S&W cause the death of the 10mm cartridge?

Did the .44 Magnum cause the death of the .357 Magnum?

Are 30-06 rifles still made?

THIS FORUM IS FOR THOSE WHO LIKE AND ARE INTERESTED IN THE .45GAP CARTRIDGE! IT IS NOT FOR EXPRESSING YOUR DISLIKES, SO OFF YOUR SOAPBOX PLEASE!;l ;m

THE QUESTIONS OF THE AUTHOR HAVE BEEN ANSWERED, SO THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED.:(