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Shaner
05-30-2004, 14:22
Hi ya'll ;z

I will be looking for an rifle for deer hunting soon. The gun I'm looking into is an remington 7400 synthetic or an remington 700.

What calibers are the best for whitetails? I will probably be making some long shots and I want alot of power.

Thanks,

Shane

Dogbite
05-30-2004, 20:45
There are several good calibers for deer hunting.Some of the more popular calibers include 270,308 30-06,7mm-08,and far reaching(upper end power)7mm mag and 300 win mag.There are many others--- all the new short mags,offering basicly the same power as the belted mags in a shorter action--lighter rifle,but they dont have a million different loadings like the older belted magnums. If you want a lot of power,the 7mm mag and 300 mag will not leave you lacking.^c What ever you get,shoot it like crazy before you go afield.

firminw
05-30-2004, 22:04
If you have to ask that question then take my advise and dont even speak of taking long shots. The list of whitetail capable calibers is long indeed but you best stick to the shorter range numbers. I dont care if you are a military or police sniper you undoubtedly aren't up on the ethics of hunting. Dont be taken in by all the hype and tripe you hear on these sites by psuedo marksmen and limit all shots to within sane limits. Deer aren't paper targets or humans who can seek medical treatment. If you wound one with a stupid shot they either die a slow miserable death or go through life maimed. Dont ever take an iffy shot just so you can tell so and so about it and be the big hunter. Real hunters know their prey and then adjust to the situation. The situation,ethically, never demands a extremely long shot and yes I have hunted "out West". My longest shot to date was approx. 425 yds at a running wounded antelope someone else wounded with a stupid shot. I dont care if your using the newest Mach 3 magnum you still have to be sure of your shot and abilities or ethics demands not taking a shot. Magnums still require precision shot placement as do the old standards which is the secret to good kills anyway. Go with a capable caliber of which there are hundreds and good bullets and plenty of practice then you might be ready. Dont think just because you've worn out a credit card on the latest gadgets that that makes you a hunter. Learn more about your quarry and decide to be an ethical practician and leave the long range stuff to the pseudo hunters who are more talk and less hunt.

mpol777
05-30-2004, 23:01
^6

Firminw hit the nail on the head on all counts.

As for caliber; .243 or .270 and lots of practice.

vafish
05-31-2004, 06:10
Good post by Firminw,

To answer the original question about deer calibers,

I prefer a caliber that can be found at any walmart or sporting goods store.

Some of the most popular choices are 30-30, .308, .30-06, .270, and .243.

If you really are set on shooting at long ranges the .308, 30-06, and .270 are your best choices.

But really any of the rounds I listed will work out fine to 200 yards. And 200 yards is a long ways for a novice deer hunter.

I'm a big fan of the 30-06 for a rifle, I bought one about 25 years ago because most of the other guys in deer camp used it. Funny thing, I still have that rifle and have never shot a deer with it. A few years after I bought it I got a TC Contender in .44 mag and have shot the majority of my deer with that. I've also shot several during Black Powder season. But all of the deer I've shot have been within 100 yards. Never really had a need for greater reach.

I think there's a lot more challenge getting within 50 yards of a deer than there is shooting one at 300 or 400 yards.

GRIZZLYBEAR
05-31-2004, 07:55
If I am using a rifle instead of my normal revolvers to hunt whitetail...
I prefer the old bush busting calibers: 35 Remington, 444 Marlin, 45-70 etc.


grizz

Got Glox??
05-31-2004, 08:24
I've used 25-06 for years with success, but it's all about shot placement.
This year though, i did get on the 'Short Mag' bus;f and picked up a Winchester 25 WSSM to take the place of my 25-06.
The only time i will be using it though, is if i can't hit it with my S&W 500, and i have that sighted in at 100 yards so far^c

A_Swede_17_1911
05-31-2004, 12:48
Look at the .280 remington, I use a 7mm Remington Mag, but also have the option of Elk in Oregon to, so I use it for both. You couldnt go wrong with a 30-06 or .270win either, plus you should be able to find a good used rife, in a 700 or 7400 in .270, .280, or 30-06. Theres alot of good bullets out for those peticular rounds, and all are great deer rounds.

Shaner
05-31-2004, 14:11
Firminw,

I was not talking about shot placement, I was simply asking which is the better caliber for the dollar to get. I don't even have an deer rifle yet, Just an .22 and an hand me down shotgun.

I also don't have a credit card.

I asked about LONG shots because the area I have to HUNT isn't exactly close quarters, there are alot of open fields and places that I wanted a bullet that wouldn't drop THAT much, I know I can look at an ballistics chart, but I was trying to get personal expirence.

And from what gathered you are suggesting I am a horrible shot?

I can beg to differ.

Shaner
05-31-2004, 14:16
As for range, I was thinking more of like 100-150 yards, I have a good scouting area with RF binocs and I have gotten within 40 yards of some nice bucks too.

wanderinwalker
05-31-2004, 18:26
Originally posted by Shaner
As for range, I was thinking more of like 100-150 yards, I have a good scouting area with RF binocs and I have gotten within 40 yards of some nice bucks too.

WOW!! You saw some at 40 yards! Around here that would be a barrel stretcher! ;)

Seriously, inside 100-150 yards (even 300) I'd be pretty happy with anything based on the .308/.30-06 cases. My personal one is a .260 Remington (6.5mm on a .308). No, I can't vouch for its effectiveness on game, but it is accurate as snot and easy to shoot. Different too.

Go for whichever one floats your boat and practice lots. Practice shooting offhand, sitting, kneeling, etc. Just get comfortable with the rifle. It should be an extention of your body by the time the deer settles under the crosshairs.

(Unfortunately for me, mine is always sitting in my lap when I see deer at 50 feet. Oh well.)

firminw
05-31-2004, 19:41
Shaner, dude, I never implied you were a bad shot. The only concern I had is you sounded a little green. I know it's easy to get caught up in the never ending parade of brags that hunters put forth. Hey I brag 'bout that 425 yard shot on that antelope all the time but when the dust settles it was just as much luck as it was marksmanship. Conditions were perfect, he was quartering away to the left and I guessed the perfect lead. That 270 Win. ended a bad situation cleanly and humanely. I would never make another shot at that range unless it was a similar situation and I used to be checked out to 600 meters. I recently killed a groundhog at 312 long steps with my Bushmaster V- Match souped up coyote killer and a coyote at 342 long steps but I wouldn't consider myself a marksman. On any occassion the conditions have to be exactly right or I wont take the shot. Learn ethics as well as all other necessary hunting skills and you'll be an asset to a very hallowed fraternity or be like all the other folks with all the latest gadgets and no skill that do irreperable harm to our sport. As to calibers go to the ballistics charts and pick among the ones that retain 1000 ft/lbs of energy at the range you choose as maximum. As for bullets stay in the .250 Sectional Density and higher. Put that power and sectional density in the right spot and you'll have freezer venison. If you use optics get as much as you can afford but there are quite a few good scopes normal people can afford. If your going to upgrade your rifle look at the bedding and trigger and get quality gunsmithing. I hope all this helps but as for caliber anything based on 30-06 or 308 will be plenty for good shots at sane distances.

vafish
06-01-2004, 06:36
Shane,

I've seen people buy .300 Win Mags as deer rifles because they think the extra power will make up for poor shot placement. They take the things to the range once and get beat to snot by the gun, they develop a big flinch and can't hit the side of a barn. After putting 10 shots through the gun they think they are sighted in and never shoot it again except at deer which they always seem to miss.

You didn't say what a long shot is in your area in you orginal post. I consider 100-150 yards a very reasonable distance shot. When someone starts talking about "Long Range" shooting I usually assume they mean distances of at least 250-300 yards.

Since you are fairly new to center fire rifles I'd look for a .243. Both the Remington 700 and 7400 come chambered in that caliber. It's pretty commonly available at most stores that sell ammo. It has low recoil and a history of being very accurate. It also can do double duty as a varmit gun with the lighter weight bullets.

If you can't find a .243 in your area a .308, .270, or .30-06 would be my recomendations pretty much in that order. .260 Remington is also a good choice, but ammo can be a bit harder to find.

f1b32oPTic
06-01-2004, 08:17
if i were looking at a deer gun where i was shooting the longer than average shot, i would pick the .270 winchester.

where i hunt, early in the season, the max shot is about 75 yards because of the foliage but the last 2 weeks of season, there are 200+ yard shots in the exact same areas.

i hunt with a .308 but if i were shooting soybean fields regularly i would pick the .270 because its flat trajectory and proven performance.

lazarus
06-01-2004, 10:17
I would avoid the .243. It is widely regarded as a marginal caliber. If you are buying a new gun, why not get something more versatile.

IMHO, the .30-06 is about as versatile as it gets. Go with a 700; you won't regret it.

ithaca_deerslayer
06-01-2004, 11:21
At 150 yards, most deer rifle calibers will have very little drop.

What about recoil and blast? Do you want a little or a lot?

I vote for a Remmy 700 in .308

I also vote that you then practise a whole lot of off-hand 100 and 200 yard shots. Take one shot, walk to target and mark the shot with a pen. Then walk back and take another shot.

For you to hunt at a particular distance, all your off-hand shots better be grouped around the size of your fist.

Why all the walking between shots? To get your heartrate up, and to realize that only one shot counts while hunting.

lazarus
06-01-2004, 14:49
I like Ithaca_Deerslayer's drill a lot. I have often joked that if you want to practice your deer hunting, you should get up at 4:00AM, drive to the range, wait 4 hours, take one shot, score it and go home.

I like the ID of doing the walking. However, if you can shoot a fist-size group, off-hand, at 200 yards, you are a better man than I am.

I usually practice off-hand shooting by putting up 8" paper plates at 50 and 100 yards. I can consistently attain a 5-6" group at 100 yards.

I guess I need more range time if I supposed to be able to do the same thing at 200...

rhikdavis
06-01-2004, 16:13
How much can I expect to pay for a Remington 700?

lazarus
06-01-2004, 17:19
The ADL Synthetic can be had at Wal-mart for under $400. I think it is $379, or something like that.

It includes iron sites, which most models do not.

mpol777
06-01-2004, 17:26
Originally posted by rhikdavis
How much can I expect to pay for a Remington 700?

A Wally-World 700 ADL synthetic stock will run you about $375+tax around here. The price varies about +/- $25 in different places. The prices on other particular models all go up from there.

lazarus
06-01-2004, 19:20
The ADL Synthetic can be had at Wal-mart for under $400. I think it is $379, or something like that.

It includes iron sites, which most models do not.

Trademark
06-01-2004, 19:34
I've seen people buy .300 Win Mags as deer rifles because they think the extra power will make up for poor shot placement. They take the things to the range once and get beat to snot by the gun, they develop a big flinch and can't hit the side of a barn. After putting 10 shots through the gun they think they are sighted in and never shoot it again except at deer which they always seem to miss.

I have certainly seen this very thing with the 300 win mag. It's all I shoot at deer. My favorite is my ruger #1. It holds one shot, so, how many more do you need? i have NEVER "shot AT a deer". Take the shot you know you can kill him with...or don't shoot. I shoot that gun alot, some days, if i am not concentrating i might shoot two times and quit, i don't want to reenforce a any habits, like flinching.
I would suggest you take up black powder hunting first. (you get to hunt another season for one, and you have to hunt the deer.
I spend alot of time glassing hills, I have ranged deer that were 400 yards away that were tiny. I hear about a lot of folks killing deer at extreme ranges,I personally think it is not right to take a shot a that range. see the first post for an elegant explination of why.
If you want to hunt deer..then hunt them. If you want to kill deer at extreme ranges, buy paper deer targets and have at it.

ithaca_deerslayer
06-02-2004, 07:28
Originally posted by lazarus
However, if you can shoot a fist-size group, off-hand, at 200 yards, you are a better man than I am.

I usually practice off-hand shooting by putting up 8" paper plates at 50 and 100 yards. I can consistently attain a 5-6" group at 100 yards.

I guess I need more range time if I supposed to be able to do the same thing at 200...

The whole point is I can't shoot fist size at 200 yards off-hand. That's what makes me realize 200 yards is too far for a good shot on a deer!

I'm pretty good at 100 yards, though. Even better at 50 yards!
;a

Trademark
06-02-2004, 15:54
With my "The deer swallowed a volleyball" therory of bullet placement. 8 inhes, or a paper plate is close enough for offhand.
firminw- put the best point on it. Shoot=hit...or don't shoot.
I will make a comment about my #1 Ruger. It's real handy, its short even with a 26 inch barrel because it doesnt have an action. However, it's HEAVY! or I am getting old; or both...

nickE10mm
06-02-2004, 21:29
I have a Rem. 700 VLS in .243 Winchester and have taken deer from 15 yards on out to almost 300. Results with 95 grain Winchester Ballistic Tips are usually that the deer drops in its tracks or only runs a few yards before collapsing with full through penetration, even on quartering away shots.

The important thing, as with ANY RIFLE when hunting, is to put that bullet RIGHT through the drum (vitals), the head, or spine and you should have no worries.

The .243 is a great caliber and I have many times had more success than my elders carrying .30-06's. Its just right, and quite accurate.

Enjoy!

nickE10mm
06-02-2004, 21:46
I have a Rem. 700 VLS in .243 Winchester and have taken deer from 15 yards on out to almost 300. Results with 95 grain Winchester Ballistic Tips are usually that the deer drops in its tracks or only runs a few yards before collapsing with full through penetration, even on quartering away shots.

The important thing, as with ANY RIFLE when hunting, is to put that bullet RIGHT through the drum (vitals), the head, or spine and you should have no worries.

The .243 is a great caliber and I have many times had more success than my elders carrying .30-06's. Its just right, and quite accurate.

Enjoy!

Trademark
06-03-2004, 16:11
If i had it to do over i would get a youth or moutain ruger .243 with my big lupold on it. i think you are correct. a real light little tack driver. for now i will have to stick with the 300...it's paid for, and if you have ever priced them , Ruger is PROUD of thier #1!

rhikdavis
06-03-2004, 16:55
Originally posted by lazarus
The ADL Synthetic can be had at Wal-mart for under $400. I think it is $379, or something like that.

It includes iron sites, which most models do not.

I saw one today......are there any obvious benefits of synthetic vs. wood....?

mpol777
06-03-2004, 17:11
Sythentic stocks aren't effected by weather and the elements like a wood stock is. It's utility as opposed to looks.

Trademark
06-03-2004, 18:36
I saw one today......are there any obvious benefits of synthetic vs. wood....?

Synthetic is lighter!!!!:)

firminw
06-03-2004, 19:57
Weight, usually, but not always. Impervious to weather and temperature. A nearer to indestructable condition. Impervious to chemicals and oils. Can be any color you can imagine and will stay that way. Etc. yada, yada, yada.

knuckle dragger
08-26-2004, 20:17
I think the 7mm-08 or the 6.5x55 are great deer calibers..

Hunterjbb
08-26-2004, 21:30
myself,, some folks recomended the Tikka T3..

You can't go wrong with any of the big names, remington, winchester, browning, savage, Ruger, weatherby, really just depends on what you want to spend. Savage makes a good rifle for a little less then the others.

Caliber wise, well as somone else said and as folks pointed out to me, the 30.06 is one of the most versatile round existing.. and with good shot placement can handle almost all of the North American game animals..

I never shoot more then 200yds unless conditions are perfect and to be honest i've had more one shot drops with my .270 with 130gr bullets then any of my other guns, 35 marlin, 760 in 06, shotgun.. .41 magum..

I would say, 30.06 in synthetic with a 22" barrel should do you for the rest of your days. You can buy ammo anywhere for it and it comes in so many varities it's unreal.

Good scope, Simmons 44 mag, Leupold if you can afford it.. I prefer over and under mounts for my scopes as i like to have my head more upright..

Practice.. 8" pie plates at 50, 75, 100 yds.. offhand.. at 200 go to a rest, shoot sitting shoot kneeling shoot prone.. a good idea is the wear your hunting coat while practicing so you can feel the difference it's bulk etc. makes when you have it on..

good luck and have fun.

Jeff.

paynter2
08-27-2004, 21:22
I'm with the .243 crowd. I haven't shot a lot of deer with the .243 - a few. But, I've shot many with a 6mm Rem - almost identical to the .243. I've seen the same results as posted earlier - they seem to drop in their tracks. I attribute this to the fact that the bullet usually stops within the animal - a bullet that exits, exits with wasted energy. But, any caliber above a .243 will work just fine.

I used to shoot a 30-06 years ago. It worked fine, but the deer did not drop where shot as often and with the smaller calibers. I also found that after shooting the lighter calibers for years, it was not pleasant to shoot larger calibers. Sighting in my dad's 30-06 was a pain in the ass after shooting light stuff.

I found I like the small rifles too - youth models. I was using my nephew's M7 Rem youth model on a very cold Wisconsin day. I was wearing some pretty heavy cloths. The smaller rifle worked really well when dressed so heavy. It's always nice out when I sight in my rifle - but it isn't always nice when I'm hunting. I'm thinking about a M7 / walnut youth in .260 rem.

I just took delivery (haven't even shot it yet) on a pre-64 M100 .243. It looks new - I don't even know if I'm going to use if for hunting. But, it's a great looking little semi-auto...

My advice would be go to Wal-Mart and get a M700 BDL in .243. If you prefer a larger caliber - get a popular one... .270, 308, 30-06. It's not that they're better than the others, just more popular. If you ever decide to trade up for a different rifle they will be easier to sell or trade. Good luck with your pick - let us know what you decide.

pesticidal
08-27-2004, 21:37
Originally posted by wanderinwalker
(snipped)

Seriously, inside 100-150 yards (even 300) I'd be pretty happy with anything based on the .308/.30-06 cases. My personal one is a .260 Remington (6.5mm on a .308). No, I can't vouch for its effectiveness on game, but it is accurate as snot and easy to shoot. Different too.



I'm glad to hear that. I just bought my son a Remington 700 chambered in .260. I know little about rifles, so I took the advice of a friend and bought this one sight unseen. My son has a youth license, so he should be able to get his deer in mid-September.

muddydog
08-27-2004, 23:41
i have a 742 30-06 and it is the shiztz.
its been my goto gun since i was 12.

all of my deer with it have been 5 yards to 100 yards out. no failures except for a box of ammo that had bad brass one time, not the guns fault.

probably close to 2500, maybe even 3000 rounds through it. its a 1MOA gun set up with AO tritium sights and warne QD mounts to 2 scopes. 1 1.5x4 3200 firefly and the other a 3x9 3200 firefly.

if i were going to be shooting 100-300 yards routinely...i'd go hands down with either a 270 or 280.

be very leery of shooting past 300 on wild game.. too many variables.

Tommy Gunn
08-29-2004, 16:03
Originally posted by Shaner
As for range, I was thinking more of like 100-150 yards, I have a good scouting area with RF binocs and I have gotten within 40 yards of some nice bucks too.

A .30-30 Winchester will do fine on deer at those ranges.

Tommy Gunn
08-29-2004, 16:04
Originally posted by Trademark
Synthetic is lighter!!!!:)


Wood is warm, anyone that hunts in cold weather take note.

muddydog
08-29-2004, 17:11
synthetic is also noiser..
i fill the hollow stocks with spray foam to quiet them down.

ithaca_deerslayer
08-30-2004, 09:08
I like the wood stocks, myself.

USPcompact
08-31-2004, 21:08
Hey guys, lets not kid ourselves - the .243 is the .380 ACP of the deer world. :)

That said, I'd go with a Tikka in .270 or .308. Both are very common rounds and can be found anywhere. Get the rifle sighted in, and then experiement with different ammo brands to find which one your rifle likes best.

paynter2
09-01-2004, 09:24
Hey guys, lets not kid ourselves - the .243 is the .380 ACP of the deer world.

If you mean that it's (.243) about the smallest calibre you would use to hunt with, I'd agree.

If you mean it isn't sufficient to do the job, I'd say you've never used one to kill a deer.

muddydog
09-01-2004, 13:00
i dunno..about that .243 minimum.

i've busted some serious whitetail ass with a .223 and 95% have either gone down like a ton of bricks hit them or flopped a few yards and stretched out and died, only a few going 30-40 yards.

a hot loaded 22-250 is a brutal killa...on them.

now with 62-70 partition type bullets things would be any better.

a 100gr premium .243 bullet would ace any whitetail that ever walked.

the last time i was in colorado i ran into a couple of locals who where using atleast 1 .243 in the group --for ELK...

USPcompact
09-01-2004, 20:04
Originally posted by paynter2
If you mean that it's (.243) about the smallest calibre you would use to hunt with, I'd agree.

If you mean it isn't sufficient to do the job, I'd say you've never used one to kill a deer.

You're correct on both counts - by law in NC you must use at least a .243 to hunt deer, and I've never killed a deer with a .243. Just don't see the need to go that small.

paynter2
09-02-2004, 12:30
and I've never killed a deer with a .243. Just don't see the need to go that small.

Posted by an honest man... There are certainly a host of calibers to use other than a .243. If you ever get a chance to use one ( .243) , go for it. You might find that you like it.

joehammer75
09-03-2004, 21:02
I at one time was big on a 30-06 and would never think of anything else. But I am a new man I suppose one could say. Wife ask me a few years ago what I wanted for christmas and like most of us I said a GUN. Ask for a new 30-06. Ended up with a Nice Savage .270 and just love it. Its great for deer. Last year I took out a ,223 and took a very nice 8 point buck with it. The point if ther is one to my post is the most important part is being able to put that bullet where it counts if its 243 or 300 mag . Now I know some guys dont enjoy shooting a 30-06 and would perfer somthing smaller and thats fine as long as they get out and practice with it. As always it all boils down to is where the bullet hits.
Also I have always heard the little slime balls brag about how many deer they have killed with the "old 22" well to that I say shame on them .Have deer been taken with 22s yes but how many have been hit with a 22 and lived but in pain. Always bothers me to hear some guy thinking he is the man of the woods talking about his 22LR and the deer he has shot with it. Most of those kinda guys are the ones that just shoot the deer and leave it anyways. Sorry had to vent ;f

jchast
09-05-2004, 21:13
For what it's worth... these are the calibers I use and why. 7mm rem mag savage & 30.06 savage. I use the 7 mag when I am hunting fields, areas with alot of open space or when I am posting for drives on top of hills. The 7 mag is a fast powerful caliber that won't let you down with a well placed shot (just like any caliber). I use the 30.06 when hunting woodsy areas and areas with alot of brush as the 7 mag's bullet is just a little too light and can be deflected alot easier than the 30.06 from hitting a twig or some brush. I have made 200 and 300 yard shots on buck with both rifles... they are both very capable calibers. Choose wisely depending on hunting area and conditions. Regardless of what caliber you choose, the key is practice practice practice. Shot placement and safety are your #1 priorities. 300 yards is my max shot that I would feel comfortable taking. Anything over that I feel is dangerous and a bit careless... but it depends on your situation. Good luck on your choice, practice and be safe.

StockGlock23
09-05-2004, 22:19
Also I have always heard the little slime balls brag about how many deer they have killed with the "old 22" well to that I say shame on them .
Shame is a lightly used word in my opinion. A .22 rimfire is illegal hwere I live I assumed it was that way all over. Although Whitetails Unlimited gave a presentation where I used to work and they gave a poll as to which caliber had killed more deer than anyother in history and the .22 rimfire was at the very top of the list.

As far as long shots are concerned anything over 250-300 with perfect conditions is a little iffy. I cannot count the number of times that people have told me about their 500-600 yard shots. BULL. I would say that 95% of people shooting do not have the skills, talent, or the equipment to take such a shot and the ones that do never take those shots.
I use a smooth bore Moss500 with rifled slugs (0-30yrds.), a .54 cal. muzzleloader (0-100 yrds.), my bow (0-30 yrds.)and I just bought a .308 if I ever decide to hunt in Michigan (above the rifle line) again.

toemag
09-09-2004, 17:13
Hello Gent's,

I Hunt in Bavaria Germany and have never hunted whitetail deer.

I Hunt Roe deer over here with a .308 Win. because it work's.

About four years ago a hunter tried shooting two deer with one bullet using .243 Win.. The first deer dropped in its tracks, the second took off. We searched for that deer for a while which i then found and dispatched. As i was field dressing the doe i discovered that the .243 win projectile didnt have enough residual power to penetrate the chest cavity of the doe, and was stuck in her shoulder.

I was disgusted the a fellow hunter would even attempt something like that.

paynter2
09-10-2004, 07:12
As i was field dressing the doe i discovered that the .243 win projectile didnt have enough residual power to penetrate the chest cavity of the doe, and was stuck in her shoulder.

I agree that this is disgusting. However, it makes my point of why the .243 is such a great deer caliber. Most or all of it's energy is absorbed by the deer. What good does it do to have 3000ft/lbs of energy entering the deer and 1500ft/lbs exiting? I'd rather have 2400ft/lbs entering and no exit. Then the deer goes down = .243.

toemag
09-10-2004, 08:23
Hello,
If you read my thread again you'll notice that the .243 had already passed through one Roe deer and did'nt have what it takes to take the second one down, causing a nasty wound in the doe's shoulder, which once it got infected would have been very painfull for the Doe.
Did I also mention that that Doe was despatched more than a kilometer away from where she'd taken the shoot, and that was as the bird flies, the doe had probably covered twice that distance before we got close enough to dispatch her. The only reason that I was able to dispatch her was that she stumbled and had problems getting up again, which allowed me to get close enough to do the necesary.

Please note that these were only Roe deer and not Whitetails or bigger, I'd rather have the .308 win. as an ex soldier with the British Army, and having seen on the Northern Ireland training what that round (FMJ not JSP) does to a double cavity wall, I know that I'm using the right caliber.

be good

noway
09-10-2004, 10:24
Ironic that the 243 is one of the most common starter deer calibers due to it recoil characteristics. If you shot a deer in the right spot it will goe down. Alot of teens and females have used this caliber in taking of a deer.


FWIW: another good deer caliber ( technically not a caliber ) are 12 and 20gauges. Shotguns firing slugs are one of the best deer stopper, but at disadvantage of the maximum range is less than a rifle due to trajectory.

paynter2
09-10-2004, 13:54
Toemag: I'm not disagreeing with you. I don't like the idea of someone trying to kill two animals with one bullet.

I'm not a bit surprised by the fact that the .243 bullet was too spent to kill animal number 2. I think maybe you missed my point. I'll try again. ;)

Being less powerful, than say a 30-06, may be why the .243 appears to kill deer so well. If a bullet stops in the deer - as my .243 bullets usually do, then the deer absorbs 100% of the energy. If the bullet exits (as my 30-06 routinely did), than how much energy is delivered to the deer? - probably less than the .243 which stops inside the animal.

.308 is a great round, so is the 30-06, .270, etc, etc... I'm just trying to point out why the .243 seems to be so lethal on deer sized critters.

toemag
09-10-2004, 14:02
Hiya Paynter 2,

You are 100% right, sorry if I misinterpreted what you said.

Tony

lomfs24
09-11-2004, 20:55
It seems that .243 seems to be the common caliber that everyone believes you shouldn't go under. That being said I won't even say what I use, it is smaller than a .223. I have killed 3 deer a year for that last 6 years with it too. I have never lost one and I have never had one even take a step. Bullet placement, not caliber, is what makes a deer go down. I mean, isn't that the real gun control.

I agree with the the "long shot" posts. Anything beyond 250 yards is a long shot on a whitetail deer. I would say most of your shots will probably be inside 100 yards and quite a few will be inside 50 yards. Many times I have found my self not taking a shot, not because I didn't think I could make it, but because my scope was causing me problems at the close range. One buck I let go a couple years ago I could see individual hairs in the scope. The reason I let him go? I could not accurately tell what part of his body those hair I saw were on fast enough. I couldn't tell whether they were high back, low chest or neck, all I saw was hair so I didn't shoot.

Nuff said about that. All calibers mentioned so far would be fine for deer. I would probably cast my vote for .243 or 30-30 or 30.06. Not that I think they are better but ammo avaibility is good. If you find yourself hunting out in some hick town out of ammo you want to be able to stop anywhere that sells ammo and be able to replenish. Probably the 30.06 would be the most versatile. You can get light loads for it and shoot deer, you can get heavy loads for it and shoot elk, if you ever get a chance to do it.

I would not recommend anything in the Magnum range, it is definate over kill especially if you plan on eating any of the meat you harvest.

Remember, practice, practice practice. Bullet placement downs a deer not caliber. A well placed .22 will bring a deer down faster than a poorly placed 300 Win Mag.

Sixgun_Symphony
09-18-2004, 04:39
Nothing less than .40 caliber, a .50 is preferrable.

I am currently using a .50 caliber Hawken rifle, the 1/66" rifling twist rate gives it great accuracy with patched ball. :)

Sixgun_Symphony
09-19-2004, 18:37
http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/421555920/5.jpg

You can see the .490 ball that I cast myself. They're on the pillowticking that I use to cut the patches from. There is the cheap storebought possibles bag. I greased the flap with borebutter to shed water when out in the rain.

You can also see the powder flask, I got a powderhorn on order from Dixie Gun Works. You can see the tin of CCI percussion caps and the short starter.

The Hawken Woodsman rifle was made by Traditions, a cheap rifle and kit. I call it my "canoe gun", a rifle that I won't miss too much if the canoe should tip over. It is accurate to 125yds if I do my part, a good hunting rifle for hard use out in the Cascade or Olympic mountain ranges of western Washington.

Sixgun_Symphony
09-19-2004, 18:52
http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/421555920/0.jpg

noway
09-19-2004, 23:45
Looks very nice.:cool:

I find down here very few people still use patched balls for hunting. So it good sometime to find a 100% traditional style muzzleloader & hunting with lead balls.

Weston
09-28-2004, 17:55
Originally posted by Dogbite
If you want a lot of power,the 7mm mag and 300 mag will not leave you lacking.^c What ever you get,shoot it like crazy before you go afield.

Affirmative on all counts. 300 win mag is my choice but its difficult to differentiate when talking about deer.

noway
09-29-2004, 00:47
{Affirmative on all counts. 300 win mag is my choice but its difficult to differentiate when talking about deer.}

You need a 300win mag to kill deer as much as you need a 18 wheeler international to carry you grocery home from the store. ;)

A lot of deer have subcome to caliber much less in power.


the only thing a 300win mag accomplish is a greater trajectory and big dent in your wallet & shoulder. Unless you are planning on harvesting all of your deer at 300yrds plus an win mag is a waste of $$$.$$.

just my 0.02c and honest opinion.

Weston
09-29-2004, 04:50
The man said he wanted real power. And when it comes to caliber, there's only one kind dead.

sniper1moore
10-06-2004, 20:18
.308,Unless you're hunting really big bears then I would want a .50 BMG.;) Ken

CanyonMan
10-07-2004, 01:34
Well Hoss, you have ask a question, and been given a lot of good advise, and some 'not so good' advise. That goes with the territory, when we ask this kind of question... :)

All the calibers covered will kill a deer.
From the 243 winchester, to the 375 H&H mag!
From the shotgun with buck in it, to a good 'bow.'
The black powder guns fro 32 cal to 54cal.
The hand guns from 45acp to some big hog hoss, that weighs 20 pounds.

They will all work if you do your part.

As for all this 450yd. to 600yd. stuff..... Well, i'll tell ya.
As some have said they can do, on these 1/4 mile + shots, and longer, just about anybody, with the right gun and scope, and knowledge, and skill, can take those shots, and 'sometimes' do pretty good, or real good. Some of these 'long range brags' are just that, and 'no more'.

But i tell ya the 'real brag...' if you can get up on an elk, deer, whatever, at "bow ranges," 10/30 yds. That is "far more impressive," than saying you hit one at 400 yds. or whatever. Not to many can make that brag anymore. That is what puts the "hunt" back in "hunting." Getting close.

In all the years we have 'guided hunts', and i have 'hunted for my own rack/meat.' We have "never" had to take these looooong shots.

Yes, i live, and always have, "Out West." Plenty of all kinds of terrain, fro canyons, to rolling sage brush hils, to praire as far as the eye can see! But if i can kill a deer or elk with a 'bow,' why do i need to get a rifle that needs to take game at 400/600 yards?

I realy don't want to be flammed for this, but so be it, if it comes.

But the real "bragging rights," (IMHO), go to the hunter skilled enough to 'get in close enough' to the animal, to almost 'smell his breath,' and take him with one good quick clean kill.

We shy away from guiding these guys who 'insist' on wanting to take cajillion yard shots. One reason, they have never seemed to me to be very ethical people, (i "am not" slamming anyone here".... FACT).

I am saying #2, that we get 'up on the game.' That is the real rush, (to me), and seems to make me feel more like i have really been hunting!

I have shot prairie dogs on the ranch, (out of necessity), at some extremely long ranges. So, i would suppose i could do the same with deer and elk, etc.

But, again, if a man can kill the game hunted, with a bow, he should be able to do so with a rifle, and that at reasonably close range.

When i hear someone got their buck at 25/50 yards.... personally, i am far more impressed, than to hear the 400 to 600 yd. "stories."

These boys have given you some very good suggestions on caliers, as i mentioned above that 'they gave you'. Pick one, and Learn to get in close, that is the real thrill of hunting, and shows 'hunting skill.'
not just long range target shooting.

Even our ranch in Okla. and Tx. we could have the chance to take a shot such as these. But we 'work' the situation, to get in real close, and that made for a 'real thrill,' both for client, and guide alike.

Just my 'rusty two cents.'
And there is no disrepect to anyone here! None!


Man let's think about getting back to 'real hunting.' It ain't so much the power, it is the skill of seeing the 'hair' you want the bullet to hit, and do it 'without being detected,' and make a good clean kill.

Jim Bridger never even had a scope on that 50cal hawken! He did alright! :)

****EDIT NOTE**** After looking at my own post, i saw the need to add this..... I am in no wise saying, that "all" our hunts are taking game at "20/25 yards." I will say, that 90% of them are "under 100yds!" The other 10% are still "under the 200 yard mark," and that is 'very, very, few, and far between' In that 90% range, most of those have been under 50 yards.

Good Luck!


CanyonMan

lomfs24
10-07-2004, 22:25
Canyon Man, the last time I was that close to a deer I was having a real hard time shooting because the truck was really bouncing around at those speeds.

;z ;z ;z


Just kidding. I too am more impressed with the guy who can get close to what ever it is he is going to shoot. I too bow hunt and know the feeling of smelling elk breath or at least smell a bull that has just got done peeing all over himself.

This year during archery season I followed a six point bull (that's six on each side for you eastern readers) for about 300 yards down a narrow canyon. I first saw him at about 80 yards, I closed that to about 40 yards and then followed him down the canyon. I never had anything besides his butt to shoot at so he went free. But what a day. Being that close.

When you are that close you don't need a monster gun to shoot.

CanyonMan
10-07-2004, 22:41
lomfs24,......said..

(quote).."I too am more impressed with the guy who can get close to what ever it is he is going to shoot. I too bow hunt and know the feeling of smelling elk breath or at least smell a bull that has just got done peeing all over himself.

This year during archery season I followed a six point bull (that's six on each side for you eastern readers) for about 300 yards down a narrow canyon. I first saw him at about 80 yards, I closed that to about 40 yards and then followed him down the canyon. I never had anything besides his butt to shoot at so he went free. But what a day. Being that close. When you are that close you don't need a monster gun to shoot....(end quote)..


Even though you went home 'empty'.... you went home a hunter!!



Good story!
LOL out the truck part!


Good hunting Man!


CanyonMan

Weston
10-08-2004, 07:12
Originally posted by CanyonMan
lomfs24,......said..

(quote).."I too am more impressed with the guy who can get close to what ever it is he is going to shoot. I too bow hunt and know the feeling of smelling elk breath or at least smell a bull that has just got done peeing all over himself.

This year during archery season I followed a six point bull (that's six on each side for you eastern readers) for about 300 yards down a narrow canyon. I first saw him at about 80 yards, I closed that to about 40 yards and then followed him down the canyon. I never had anything besides his butt to shoot at so he went free. But what a day. Being that close. When you are that close you don't need a monster gun to shoot....(end quote)..


Even though you went home 'empty'.... you went home a hunter!!


Many a family member and friend have converted to bow hunting, with no going back which I respect. And among ourselves we started as kids with rifles working with our dads, their friends, and one another. I certainly respect those who now hunt with bow and would not hesitate joining them for the comradeship and experience.

But in my book bow hunting is for those inclinied to that kind of hunt, purists, and those that have hunted previously with at least some success – where bagging the game is not the highest priority and the hunter has time or convenience or both.

For those who don't have all that much time or hunt for reasons other that purity, there are many wounds whereas there is only one dead. Range and accuracy make all the difference. We’d be talking rifle. And you don’t want that first shot followed by hours if not days of tracking, especially if you intend to eat the game. That’s called power.

For all you purists, real hunters wear loincloth and cover themselves in mud while stalking dangerous prey with a spear or rock perhaps. Prey is often tagged on the run. They bring nothing else and immediately consume all they can eat while crouched and grunting, leaving the carcass for scavengers. It’s not a pretty sight.

CanyonMan
10-08-2004, 13:37
Weston,.......Said,

(QUOTE)

....."But in my book bow hunting is for those inclinied to that kind of hunt, purists, and those that have hunted previously with at least some success – where bagging the game is not the highest priority and the hunter has time or convenience or both.

For those who don't have all that much time or hunt for reasons other that purity, there are many wounds whereas there is only one dead. Range and accuracy make all the difference. We’d be talking rifle. And you don’t want that first shot followed by hours if not days of tracking, especially if you intend to eat the game. That’s called power.

For all you purists, real hunters wear loincloth and cover themselves in mud while stalking dangerous prey with a spear or rock perhaps. Prey is often tagged on the run. They bring nothing else and immediately consume all they can eat while crouched and grunting, leaving the carcass for scavengers. It’s not a pretty sight. (END QUOTE).



Hey Hoss, That's real "eloquent". But i think you missed the point here..!


"You say " (QUOTE)
We’d be talking rifle. And you don’t want that first shot followed by hours if not days of tracking, especially if you intend to eat the game. That’s called power." (END QUOTE)...


You need to come out to the ranch, and watch a cow drop dead from a 22mag round. Not much power there!


I have "had to hunt," to feed my family. That was some number of years ago, but i still never had to have "Power." And i still never had to take 400/500 yd. shots.

I bow hunt when i can, but i also use a rifle, and pistol. (my main choice BTW).

I am not a "purist," in the sense of 'bow hunting only,' or chasing butterflys while skipping through the woods with a loincloth, and that "is not" what i get from some of these other boys on here as well, that just like to get "close to their game." That is the point of my post, and several others as well. "Getting in close."

As i said, we have guided hunts for over 30 years, and we "are purists," in the sense of, treating the game with the respect they deserve.... a good clean kill! That can be a 'real task' at ranges of 300yds +. (for most hunters). Even 200yds.


To 'quote you again,'......."You say " (QUOTE)
We’d be talking rifle. And you don’t want that first shot followed by hours if not days of tracking, especially if you intend to eat the game. That’s called power." (END QUOTE)...


Again, your right in the fact that we should not have to track game for hours or days, as you say. But, there again, more of this very thing will happen to the wantabee looong range shooter, than it will with the Hunter that gets up on his game, and kills it cleanly, with a well placed shot. I said a "well placed shot."


You said......"For those who don't have all that much time or hunt...." (partial quote).


Another good point made is this.... Most folks 'don't have access' to the hunting grounds, and or the time, to scout, and even practice with their weapon. 'Another reason' they 'should not try' taking such long shots, where now, 'wounding game,' is even a greater factor.

We have seen for years, people from the city, or country, come and want to "take game," and they couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a lodge pole! Even at close range!

Those kind of folks need some guidance, and help, and time at the bench shooting and making sure their weapon is sighted in, and "they" are focused as well, before we take them. We don't do "drive up to the game in a jeep hunts," as some ranches do. That ain't hunting, it's target shooting. Nor do we spread manure on them and hand them a loincloth and a spear!

We take them on a 'real hunt'. My hat is off to those that can hit, and 'kill' cleanly, their game at NASA distances, but the idea of, "i didn't have the time to practise, or know what the heck i am doing out here, so i will take a 300/400,yd. shot, is crazy at best.

I ain't to ""eloquent", Just a cowboy, but i know that if a man lacks "ethics," he will treat me, the way he treats that game he hunts. If he hunts carelessly, he will do business with me in the same way. If he is not concerned about 'anything' but a cajillion yard shot when he gets out in the woods, he won't be to concerned about putting the shaft to me on a horse deal, or land buy.


I am not opposed to a 300yd. shot, if the man can hit the hair, and make a clean kill. I'm a pretty fair shot myself, but again, the point is, i am "far more impressed" with a 'hunter,' than a long range target shooter.' The latter belongs in a social shooting club, the former belongs in the woods come opening moring.

I'll close with another quote from you...(quote).."For all you purists, real hunters wear loincloth and cover themselves in mud while stalking dangerous prey with a spear or rock perhaps.... (end quote....)"




No Hoss, "real hunters," are Ethical men and women who 'do enjoy' the 'pursuit', and the beauty of what God placed in the outdoors, and the 'challenge of getting in close'! They also know when to, "let one go," cause it is just to far out, and to much can go wrong that way.

If this needs to be explained, there is already a problem!



CanyonMan

mpol777
10-08-2004, 13:48
Originally posted by CanyonMan

No Hoss, "real hunters," are Ethical men and women who 'do enjoy' the 'pursuit', and the beauty of what God placed in the outdoors, and the 'challenge of getting in close'! They also know when to, "let one go," cause it is just to far out, and to much can go wrong that way.

Well said my friend.

Weston
10-08-2004, 17:33
Circuitous thread and my apology for the use of English or satire but what exactly is your point?

I believe the question of this thread had something to do with recommendations for a high-powered rifle used for deer. In rifles there are many calibers used for deer. In my book 30-30 is the low-end of this spectrum where you seem to think .22 WMR is the bottom. I wouldn’t take that shot with a .22 WMR – deer or cow – because for me the caliber is not ethical. This is not because I find the .22 WMR an unethical caliber for deer – it’s an unethical caliber for me to shoot a deer with a .22 WMR because I would not be confident in its effectiveness unless I were very, very close and the odds of me getting that close to a deer I would want to shoot are not good given I have only so much time during any given season to hunt, much less hunt deer. In this same light I also would not shoot a deer at 400 yards with anything less than a 300 WinMag or 7 mm, and for the exact same ethics.

The relationship between ethics that, despite your self flagellation, you describe quite eloquently and caliber is one’s judgment when taking that shot.

CanyonMan
10-08-2004, 22:20
weston,


Hoss, you use a lot of big words, and i must admit, i don't understand half of them. Despite your insulting attitude towards my understanding of the english language, thats ok, for you still seem to be the one who does not seem to read and understand what is being said..... That my friend, takes heart! Ethics!

I "NEVER" said i hunt deer with a 22mag, or suggested that it is the low end of "my" choice for weapons etc... i "did say," have you ever seen a cow killed with one? They are humainly killed everyday with them, by some, and it is not a power weapon. It is really quite simple.

Now, i say this, Have you ever been to a slaughter house? have you ever worked on a ranch? have you ever guided hunts? I don't think so, or you would have better understood what was being said. I only hope you do, or can, find the "pleasure of true hunting," and the 'excitment of 'just being' in the outback', 'even if no game is taken.' Also, the real challenge of 'getting up close on the game hunted,' as opposed to the power trip, and just 'simply long range shots.'

I clearly agreed, and listed the 'calibers' for a good deer hunt, above in my first post on this thread, then we discussed some of the other issues mentioned at the begining.


rather than do this all over again, i simply suggest you re-read all the post above, perhaps you just happened to miss something there, that may be of value to you.... If not, thats alright to. :)

The issue is there is no real need for all the extreme long range shooting, thus, there is more to hunting than "power, and long range."

Hunt as you choose. Thats your right.


Best to ya Hoss!

Adios!


CanyonMan

Weston
10-09-2004, 03:43
Originally posted by CanyonMan
weston,


Hoss, you use a lot of big words, and i must admit, i don't understand half of them. Despite your insulting attitude...Hoss!

Adios!


CanyonMan

If the English language was a weapon and it is a powerful one at that, it would be a scatter gun with a blunder bust choke. Goes everywhere all at once. Entertaining to watch political candidates struggle on TV or read some of these threads, but I hate to be quoted because every single sentence, whether from me or you, is a loose end.

First of all I am not insulting you CanyonMan. And I am not attacking your positions. I value them and the fact is you sound a lot like my Dad who was a cowboy too, as are many of my family, and their take on the land and hunting is always refreshing to this snot-nosed, overly educated ex-Tex that has somehow evolved into a wordy, arrogant urbanite when in writing. I'm anything but which goes squarely to my command of the English language or, more accurately, lack of. You might have pointed this out to which I would have agreed. And never let the big words fool you. Most people hide behind them, as can I, so I thought I might point this out on your behalf since you very graciously did not.

And I know for a fact that you don't think the .22 WMR is suitable for hunting deer and of course you were referring to slaughter houses. Any reasonable person that has stepped outside a city would be able know this without jumping down your shorts. But that's about as close as I would need to be to use one on a deer. Or cow, and I don’t have a problem with either frankly because I eat meat and know for a fact that some folks can and do take full sized deer and larger with a solid neck or head shot using a .22 WMR. They know exactly what they’re doing too whereas I don’t and, being that snot nosed urbanite my Dad formerly spanked on a fairly regular basis, I have fully degenerated into a capitalistic pig where everything is on a schedule including hunting. I suspect time stops at your ranch and that sounds pretty darn wonderful.

I also think you make the hard-hitting point that is essential to this thread. It takes maturity and sound judgment to read between the lines of a question and ask why anyone would want a freight train to hunt dear. This would be you CanyonMan. Frankly it is the more important question and, thinking back, perhaps someone should have pointed this out earlier in the thread.

In any event I tend to take questions at face value and find myself wondering why I didn’t go so far as to suggest the 416 Rigby in the way of "high-power." Surely that's power and if you're up in that range, why not quad .50's mounted on a jeep...hell, take a herd of deer and whale while your at it! More sarcasm from the snot nosed one.

Adios, Hoss, and enjoy that ranch of yours.

CanyonMan
10-09-2004, 09:57
"Adios, Hoss, and enjoy that ranch of yours.



I'll do that!



CM

Castigliano
10-10-2004, 22:13
Interesting thread here...lots of opinions on ethics and selection. So I better throw in my $0.02.
Shane sounds like he is in an open area where longer distance shots may be the norm. The location of the country also makes the choice a challenge. Smaller bodied deer found in the south can be taken with 223's where a big Saskatechewan(spell?) deer may need a stouter caliber. Sooo... if you are southern hunter, a 243 may be fine. My hunting grounds of northern Minnesota make it a 50/50 choice where half the hunters love or hate it. Shot placement is exceptionally important with lighter calibers where a larger bullet may be able to pass through that deer on those angled shots. Perfect broadside shots rarley happen so a little exta power never hurts. Not lots though. 7mm Mags & 300 Mags do not do well in my area because the bullets pass through too quickly and never expand. A pass through is desired on a winter fatted MN whitetail since the small entrance hole doesn't bleed nearly as well as a larger exit. They rarely tip over like the hunting shows so expect to track, at least winter hardy deer in my area.
I would suggest going with a caliber that offers at least a 120 grain bullet of 0.25 caliber or larger. 3006 rules the woods here as well as remington auto loaders, but my Daddy told me 28 years ago to buy a bolt action because of the problems that all 8 members of the crew had with their 740 & 742's. A bolt lets you get a better trigger which helps immensley with offhand shooting since you don't pull hard and yank to the side. Look at the rear of the action on a 740/742/7400 to make sure it hasn't been shined from a weak recoils spring if you want to buy one used.
My collection is a ruger 77 3006 & remington 700 mntn 7mm08. My best slayer was a rem 788 in 308 I sold to get the ruger (wanted a 3006 to get everyones free reload brass). My 3006 is the goto gun, but if I had to replace them I would go with a bolt action 308 for me. Longer shots in your area may justify a long action 3006/270. I don't think magnums are needed for deer since most people can't hit well enough at the ranges where they really shine. General rule - if mst shots under 200 yards, go smaller, if over 200 yards, go bigger. Buy a rifle, tune the trigger,practice, and hunt with well constructed bullets that will not totally blow up at close ranges or too expansion controlled to not at expand at close ranges either.
Good luck.