.357sig vs 9mm+p or 9mm+p+

[ronin_asano]

what is the real world difference in .357sig and 9mm+p or 9mm+p+ loads?

i love my g32 and i have been shooting it well, but sometimes i wonder if it's not just a hot 9mm load in bottlenecked .40s&w case. such thoughts usually occur when i'm buying ammo, since .357sig is generally more than the .40s&w and of course 9mm.

so anyone has any experience showing the .357sig performing better than 9mm+p or 9mm+p+, do tell.

[M96er]

The .357sig was designed to be a service cartridge capable of dealing with the hard barriers that .357mag was often used for. The icing on the cake is that the .357sig is softer in recoil, can hold 6-9 more rounds over a .357mag revolver, and can match the performance of the .357mag when it comes to law enforcement needs. The .357mag of course can be made hotter, but that puts it into super magnum territory were the muzzle flash is large and the recoil severe.

I don't have any pics for you, but I have shot up a variety of junk with 9mm loads and .357sig loads. Current loads give the .357sig a 200-300fps velocity advantage over the hottest 9mm+P+ loads. The 9mm cartridge is tricked out to its maximum capability withing SAAMI specs, while the .357sig can still get another 100-200fps in velocity increase while still remaining within the SAMMI specs. I'd like to see the performance Double Tap is going to offer soon.

Anyhow, I've shot up old wheels, tires, windshields, sheet metal,.....etc. From my experience the .357sig has superior penetration power over the 9mm+P+ when it comes to non-gel media. Be sure to take into account more than just gel tests when you pick a cartridge. I'd like to see the performance difference of the 9mm+P+ and the .357sig when it comes to shooting through bone and hard muscle tissue over gel.

[Neal]

Originally posted by ronin_asano
what is the real world difference in .357sig and 9mm+p or 9mm+p+ loads?

i love my g32 and i have been shooting it well, but sometimes i wonder if it's not just a hot 9mm load in bottlenecked .40s&w case. such thoughts usually occur when i'm buying ammo, since .357sig is generally more than the .40s&w and of course 9mm.

so anyone has any experience showing the .357sig performing better than 9mm+p or 9mm+p+, do tell.

Although I don't have any of the experience you are looking for, take a look at Pete's 357 SIG page, http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/
for a tremendous amount of information about the 357 SIG cartridge.

[357glocker]

Originally posted by ronin_asano
what is the real world difference in .357sig and 9mm+p or 9mm+p+ loads?

i love my g32 and i have been shooting it well, but sometimes i wonder if it's not just a hot 9mm load in bottlenecked .40s&w case. such thoughts usually occur when i'm buying ammo, since .357sig is generally more than the .40s&w and of course 9mm.

so anyone has any experience showing the .357sig performing better than 9mm+p or 9mm+p+, do tell.

OK, here is what gets me. You say that the 357 sig ammo costs more than 40 or 9mm. I agree with that to a point, but you are making your comparisons off of the 357sig vs 9mm +p, not just the plain jane 9mm ammo. You answer your own question when you say it is the same thing as a 9mm +p or +p+. That type of ammo is just as expensive as the 357sig. For plinking yeah 9mm is cheaper if you don't want the power of the 357sig or if you want the power of 357 sig for plinking you'd have to buy +p's to plink with. I'm not feeling great with words today but hope see my point.

[ronin_asano]

Originally posted by Neal
Although I don't have any of the experience you are looking for, take a look at Pete's 357 SIG page, http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/
for a tremendous amount of information about the 357 SIG cartridge.

yeah, i have seen that page before. it's good stuff, but it's all on 'paper', if you know what i mean. i'm not saying i discount the lab tests and stuff like that. just wondering if anyone here has personal stories.

[ronin_asano]

Originally posted by 357glocker
OK, here is what gets me. You say that the 357 sig ammo costs more than 40 or 9mm. I agree with that to a point, but you are making your comparisons off of the 357sig vs 9mm +p, not just the plain jane 9mm ammo. You answer your own question when you say it is the same thing as a 9mm +p or +p+. That type of ammo is just as expensive as the 357sig. For plinking yeah 9mm is cheaper if you don't want the power of the 357sig or if you want the power of 357 sig for plinking you'd have to buy +p's to plink with. I'm not feeling great with words today but hope see my point.

i think i follow your argument with the 9mm+p+ pricing. but then that causes me to ask, if the 9m+p+ is the same price, what's the advantage of the .357sig? i'm assuming (i don't know it to be the case) that 9mm+p+ runs the same speeds and has similar ballistics. if that's so, and if 9mm is more plentiful in the +p+ varieties than .357sig, does that negate the advantage of the .357?

as regards the .40s&w, doesn't the 165gr load run about 1150fps? i know that's slower than .357sig, but then don't you still get decent penetration and you cut the larger .40 hole?

[M96er]

Originally posted by ronin_asano
as regards the .40s&w, doesn't the 165gr load run about 1150fps? i know that's slower than .357sig, but then don't you still get decent penetration and you cut the larger .40 hole?

There are two primary factors to consider when trying to penetrate hard media.......energy, and energy focus. Energy speaks for itself, the higher your energy(most directly influenced by velocity, not mass) the greater your chance of penetrating a hard media. The next point is energy focus. The wider your projectile, the less energy focus you have on your impact point. A heavier bullet also drags through the media is it tries to force a larger hole through the barrier using up its energy. The slimmer your projectile, the more energy is focused on the impact point and the greater your chance of penetration. Every hard media has an energy threshold which means that it takes a certain amount of energy per square mm to deform or "crack" it.

Also, a wider bullet has more drag as it flys through the air, and as it is penetrating soft tissue.

Barrier penetration and terminal effects on another person are two totally different principles. You want to make as small a hole as possible through the hard barrier, but make as large a hole as possile through the target. The .357sig does both of these tasks better than any other auto cartridge in the 9mm/.40/.357 platform. It can pierce hard media well, and at the same time it has very effective performance in similated tissue.

[ronin_asano]

yes, i understand that the smaller hole is better for a hard barrier penetration than a large one, and that in your 'tissue' based targets you want the largest hole to cause maxium damage. therefore, i would think one should look for the best compromise between the two. this is part of the reason i chose the g32.

i think this is a good reason to pick it over the .40s&w.

now, when it comes to the 9mm+p+, is that advantage negated? if the velocities are the roughly the same, then the energy should be roughly the same, and would that not also mean the barrier penetration is the same? or if not the same, at least close enough that picking one over the other is really not a big deal?

i guess i'm asking because i'm trying to understand why the .357sig was developed, why they didn't use a true .357 projectile (if the goal was to duplicate .357mag loads) and finally, if we assume that sig-sauer was succesful in their development goals, does the 9mm+p+ offer an alternative that's just as effective, but perhaps more plentiful?

i'm sure some of this is newbie ignorance, so please forgive me. i have been around guns for a long time, but only recently did i get 'in' to them. until i bought my first pistol, i just went on the occaisonal hunting trip or range day, but now that i have a gun for self defense, i want to a)get as proficient as possible with it and b) understand why it does what it does, and c) how it does it different from other cartridges, be they 'relatives' like the 9mm and the .40 or completely different, like a .45

[0100010]

FAIAP's a .355" 357sig 125gr bullet is the same as a .357" .357mag 125gr bullet. Those couple thousandths of an inch are not that big of a difference, and I have read of people who use both when making their own loads for 357sig.

[ronin_asano]

yes, from what i have learned so far, that was the goal of the .357sig, duplicate the 125gr .357mag load.

which brings me to the other question: why aren't there more available bullet weights for the .357sig? or at least, why don't loads other than 125gr seem to be plentiful? i am aware of 124/125gr, the 147gr and a 150gr. the 125gr seems to be the most plentiful by far, to the point that if you ask for .357sig that's what you are given by default. if the heavier bullet will hold more engergy downrage, it seems to me that there ought to be more availability for heavier loads in this cartridge.

of course, that last bit is purely from my observation. i have only seen 147gr and 150gr available online.

[Screaming .357G]

The .357magnum was long told to have been in its best "man stopper" in the 125 grain loading and that was the reason behind the .357sig.
4 inch barrel/ 125 grain bullet.

[ronin_asano]

i seem to remember reading that somewhere.

what other loads were available in .357mag?

[Screaming .357G]

In .357mag you can get some good hot loads for hunting etc in the 180 grain that is very popular.
Most of the people that carry a .357mag use 125-150 grain for SD and the 125 has long been said to be the better man stopper without over penetration.

IMO the .357sig does everything the mag does in the 125 grain loading with more rounds on tap, less recoil, faster follow up shots, faster reloads.
If you want more than the .357sig has to offer there is always the 10mm.

For me the .357sig and .45acp do all I need.

[ronin_asano]

yeah, if the 10mm ammo was more available, i'd probably be all over it.

my plan is to get a .40s&w barrel for the g32, then my next pistol will likely be a .45 of some persuasion. i haven't given any thought to the make yet.

[M96er]

Try the G37 in the .45 G.A.P. ;) There is also a rumor that the G38 is going to be available next month, but it's probably just a rumor.

[ronin_asano]

i think i'll wait on the .45gap. not that there's anything wrong with it, just don't feel like being a tester, so to speak.

[M96er]

Originally posted by ronin_asano
i think i'll wait on the .45gap. not that there's anything wrong with it, just don't feel like being a tester, so to speak.

It's been out almost a year. Here's some great info on it:

www.45gap.com

-Current pistols chambered in the GAP are the GLOCK 37, Springfield XD, and the Derringer.

-Pistols being developed in the GAP are the GLOCK 38 and 39, CZ RAMMI and other models, and a Smith and Wesson revolver.

-Pistols rumored to be chambered in the GAP are the Steyr series, H&K USP, and Walther.

[SDBettas]

I shoot and reload both 357 Sig and 10mm. I don't think i'd be able to shoot near as much of either one, if I didn't reload. $12-$15 a box for either round, when I can make my own for about $4 a box. It's a no brainer, for me at least.