Hello from Poland!

[Nestor]

It's my first post here, so forgive me even stupid questions. The only combat rifle I know is Polish AK (in 7.62X39 and in 5.56 NATO).
I can't say I Ak is bad rifle, so don't get me wrong I don't want to start some flame war over AK design. The fact is that I don't felt comfortable with AK. Yes it's good, relaible design, but it's not my cup of coffee. I never had in hand real AR rifle - only (I know you will find it funny :), but here in Poland only GROM use M4 ) Airsoft copy of M4. I felt the serious difference. I think I will buy AR if we will arrive in US. I'm sure you heard about M4 from HK. Here is what I found:

"The M16 is more accurate and faster handling with better controls than the XM8/G36 family of weapons.The HKM4 gas system is a copy of earlier designs from makers that did not have HK's marketing savvy.

The piston driven M4 is a welcome upgrade to the world's best handling and most accurate family of weapons,adding much needed reliability and longevity.

I was retrofitting FN FAL gas pistons and return springs to my AR15s over a decade ago and getting similar results to the HK torture tests and wondered why this idea didn't catch on.

I guess common sense and innovation is no substitute for glossy marketing and multimillion dollar gongressional lobbying schemes.

Way to go HK!"

My question is: did you try such modification? I'm very interested, because I don't belive that HK will put those rifles on the civilian market (maybe after 5 years ;) ).

I want to buy also KUEHL precision M4 .22LR to keep ammo cost down ( I will need a lot of practice with new rifle) is it a good idea, maybe there is a better producer?

BTW can I ask for club number - first free - it's not so important for me. Thank you! Adam

[pangris]

Welcome, I'm a fair weather AR guy, but they are a lot of fun if you can get them to work. ;) I hope all is well with you and yours!

[DJ Niner]

Nestor, I have given you Black Rifle Club #26 (the next available number, as you requested); welcome to the BRC!

There can be some confusion when you say just "M4". Colt made the original M4 carbine, but HK recently started using this term for one of their new weapons. I believe Colt has asked (through a lawyer) that HK not use this model designation, as Colt considers it one of Colt's trademarks. I noticed shortly after this happened, that the HK website pages for the HK M4 were quickly changed or removed.

Now that all of that is out of the way, I do remember a gas-piston conversion of the AR-15 system from many years ago (perhaps 15-20 years?). The one I remember was called the Rhino conversion; you just swapped the upper receiver and bolt carrier, and you were done, IIRC. It was not very popular as far as I can remember; it's possible that it never even went into large-scale production.

Personally, I think it may be a good idea, but because of the marketing hype that is attached to this sort of "new, improved" modification, I'll reserve my final judgement until it has been in people's hands for at least 5 years. By that time, any problems/bugs will have shown up, and any company that produces it will have time to work these problems out BEFORE my hard-earned money is spent on one.

[Nestor]

Originally posted by DJ Niner
Nestor, I have given you Black Rifle Club #26 (the next available number, as you requested); welcome to the BRC!

There can be some confusion when you say just "M4". Colt made the original M4 carbine, but HK recently started using this term for one of their new weapons. I believe Colt has asked (through a lawyer) that HK not use this model designation, as Colt considers it one of Colt's trademarks. I noticed shortly after this happened, that the HK website pages for the HK M4 were quickly changed or removed.

Now that all of that is out of the way, I do remember a gas-piston conversion of the AR-15 system from many years ago (perhaps 15-20 years?). The one I remember was called the Rhino conversion; you just swapped the upper receiver and bolt carrier, and you were done, IIRC. It was not very popular as far as I can remember; it's possible that it never even went into large-scale production.

Personally, I think it may be a good idea, but because of the marketing hype that is attached to this sort of "new, improved" modification, I'll reserve my final judgement until it has been in people's hands for at least 5 years. By that time, any problems/bugs will have shown up, and any company that produces it will have time to work these problems out BEFORE my hard-earned money is spent on one.

Thank you. I listening you with great interest, you right about M4 from HK - I can't find any picture now :) . BTW if we talking about modifications:

About Enfield SA-80
The upgrade program, committed in years 2000 - 2002, was completed by the famous Heckler&Koch, which was then owned by British Royal Ordnance company (German investors bought the HK back in the 2002). About 200 000 rifles were upgraded into the L85A2 configuration, out of total 320 000 or so original L85A1 rifles produced. While official reports about the upgraded weapons were glowing, the actual field reports from the British troops, engaged in the Afghanistan campaign of 2002, were again unsatisfactory. The future of the L85 rifle remains unclear but there's some rumor that it could be retired from British service around the year 2006, and replaced by another design (most probably, the Heckler-Koch G36 assault rifle).

So, you right again. Better wait and we will see what will happen with this idea. Now I will ask again - what you think about .22LR conversion?

http://www.v22upper.com/on_target.html

I thinking about some inexpensive AR with 16" barrel in 5.56 NATO (not .223). For few years to learn as much as I can do before I will build what I want myself. Maybe you have some ideas - which AR maker you can recommend?

[RMTactical]

Lots of good manufacturers for the AR. I like Rock River Arms and Bushmaster the best.

[Nestor]

Here I found AR from Olympic Arms called "GI-16".

http://www.olyarms.com/images/gi16small.jpg
http://www.olyarms.com/images/gireceiversclose2.jpg
http://www.olyarms.com/images/gisightclose.jpg

The GI-16 is basically a Plinker type rifle, except the GI-16 has the greater strength mil-spec quality forged receivers. Fine carbine with a 16" button rifled barrel, forged receivers and A-1 sights.

GI-16: MSRP $699.00

Another this time from RRA called TASC A2 (includes hogue grip )with the standard configuration for $705.56 for muzzle brake $45 more.

http://www.adcofirearms.com/rra/rifles/TASC%20A2.jpg

I'm not sure about caliber in those rifles .223 or 5.56...

Or maybe for newbie like me it's the way:

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/lowers/Images/alowskeleton.jpg

A top quality Bushmaster Lower Receiver Assembly is matched with the very popular “Skeleton Stock” – just add an Upper and you’re ready for the range! The radically different Skeleton Stock weighs only 14.03 ounces but is the same 10 1/2” length as a standard A2 buttstock (complete assembly - stock and built lower - weighs 2 lbs. 5.27 oz. The neoprene foam sleeve gives you a great cheek weld and the comfortable rubber buttplate dampens recoil. A quick detach sling swivel is mounted forward on the left side of the frame (or the right side if you choose). Suggested Retail Price: $ 395.95

And this:

http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/14.5%20M4%20A2%20upper%20tan%20small%20sgn.jpg

The Kuehl Precision Firearms M-4 style upper for Atchisson .22 kits

The design of the Atchisson .22 kit locates the bolt face 1-1/4" further to the rear than the standard AR-15 design. This allows us to move the entire barrel rearward, creating a legal 16.1" barrel that is only 3/8" longer than the mil spec 14.5" M-4 barrel.

Like all our .22 barrels, these are CNC machined from top quality 4140 steel blanks in a 1-16" twist for optimum performance with 40 grain .22LR projectiles. All barrels are air gauged to assure they meet match grade specifications. They are then assembled using pre-ban style forged front sight bases and are finished in mil spec manganese phosphate. Our uppers feature FN manufactured A-2 or optional flat top upper receivers and M-4 style handguards. Optional handguards include Colt M-4 with double heat shields or match tube type free floated versions.

Now available in post ban with the Wilson Combat muzzle break!!!!!

We are now making our barrels available with the Wilson Combat BAYF approved post ban style muzzle brake. It looks very similar to the original AR-15 flash hider yet is approved by ATF for use on post ban firearms.

http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/MuzzleBrake_3week.jpg

This upper work only with the Atchisson Mk-III .22 lr. conversion kit as sold by Jonathan Arthur Ceiner and the use of our uppers require minor modification to your Atchisson Mk-III .22lr kit. Modifications or modified kits are available upon request.

Price: $465

Here is a link if you want to read about Rifle Shooter Magazine Test of 16" HB: http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/6234_eprint.pdf

[RMTactical]

Not bad I guess. My RRA shorty was about $700, great plinker. I built mine, it was easy and it helped me learn about the gun and how it works. Plus, I was able to customize each part of the gun. ;) Plus, I think it was a little cheaper that way.

[MrMurphy]

My personal favorite in the AR line is a 16.5" flattop (A3/A4) carbine. You can generally pick one up around $700-800 depending on if you built it. I stay away from Olympic Arms, and generally recommend Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, DPMS, Armalite... I don't own an AR but I have shot more than I can count.

The flat top design lets you add a carrying handle or optics as you wish. If you get a carrying-handle- built in model, you're stuck if you want optics later.


Bushmaster makes a .22 LR replacement upper for the AR-15.

The SA80 is a piece of junk. There is a reason the SAS, SBS and Royal Marines won't touch it with a 10-foot pole, even if the pole was made in France! :)

[pizzaaguy]

Hey, Nestor. ;F

Let me know when you get to central Florida.
You can shoot my AR-15 all ya' want!

Then we'll have to ;Y

^c

[Nestor]

Thank you MrMurphy. Pizzaaguy I will remeber....very well ;c thanks :)
BTW where can I find information about Bushmaster .22 LR replacement upper for the AR-15 (I can't find it here: http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/ ;g )

[Nestor]

Another possibility for 350$:

http://www.v22upper.com/images/imges_on_target/czv_22.jpg

Imported by Tennessee Guns, the CZ V-22 conversion unit is well designed, accurate, and highly reliable. Its 16.5-inch, chrome-moly steel barrel has a match-grade chamber, 1:16-inch twist rifling, and a free-floating aluminum handguard with kurling for a secure grip.
The V-22's steel bolt carrier rides on twin action rods that also capture the recoil springs, and reciprocates smoothly without any binding. The AR's charging handle is replaced by a bolt handle on the right side, which we found much easier to use with optics.
The V-22 upper receiver pins on, without modification, to any Milspec AR-15 lower. The V-22 includes a flat-top receiver and a faux gas block, so mounting either optics or detachable open sights is a snap.
Shooting from a bench with a Trijicon ACOG 4X scope at 50-yards, CCI's new 38-grain copper coated Velocitor ammunition put five rounds into a neat cluster measuring just 0.58". The only round the V-22 wouldn't cycle was CCI's low-powered Green Tag target ammo, but every other ammunition tested functioned perfectly.
The V-22 upper ($350) offers excellent accuracy and reliability.

[MrMurphy]

I'm pretty sure it's Bushmaster who makes the replacement .22 upper..but it might have been DPMS? Sorry!

[Nestor]

Originally posted by MrMurphy
I'm pretty sure it's Bushmaster who makes the replacement .22 upper..but it might have been DPMS? Sorry!

MrMurphy DPMS - those are beautiful rifles - are they reasonably priced?

[mindonmatter]

Hey Nestor,
When you get moved to Fredericksburg I'll take you to shoot my AR. It's a RRA flat top. I have access to some beautiful private property where I do all my shooting. There's a fresh water spring about 10 feet from where I shoot. You'll love the location and the gun!

I'll take a pic of where I shoot next time I go there. It'll give you a good feel of what the Hill Country looks like. I'll also try to take some pics of the local area for you.

http://s94888967.onlinehome.us/full.jpg

[MrMurphy]

Depending on the model, they can be a bit more than a Bushmaster but not excessively so.

[Nestor]

Originally posted by mindonmatter
Hey Nestor,
When you get moved to Fredericksburg I'll take you to shoot my AR. It's a RRA flat top. I have access to some beautiful private property where I do all my shooting. There's a fresh water spring about 10 feet from where I shoot. You'll love the location and the gun!

I'll take a pic of where I shoot next time I go there. It'll give you a good feel of what the Hill Country looks like. I'll also try to take some pics of the local area for you.

http://s94888967.onlinehome.us/full.jpg

It will be great! I have no words, and thank you for great idea about pictures of the area!

MrMurphy thank you for information.