Favorite 9mm defense round in a PM9??? [Archive]

Dandapani

06-18-2004, 07:44

Upon good advice from a knowledgable GT member, I plan on testing Rem Golden Saber 124gn (not +p) and using that if goes well. However, my local sporting goods shop was out of it, so I got some 124gn Speer Gold Dot and Federal 124gn Hydra-Shok to play with until I can find the GS.

Side question: The GD was around $13 for 20, and the HS was around $13 for 50. The price performance of the HS is outstanding. What gives? Just a sale or something?

Person

06-18-2004, 09:17

I have been using Gold Dot 124-Grain +P and they seem to work well in my Glocks and my Kahr.

There are many good 9mm rounds out there for self defense so choose what you feel most comfortable using. A well placed shot with any of the top brands will do the job.

Later,

Person

neeko

06-18-2004, 09:18

Ranger T 147gr

Michigun

06-18-2004, 11:03

Originally posted by neeko
Ranger T 147gr

That is the round I carry in my P9 Covert... love it!

IMAS

06-18-2004, 11:36

Originally posted by dmobrien2001
Upon good advice from a knowledgable GT member, I plan on testing Rem Golden Saber 124gn (not +p) and using that if goes well. However, my local sporting goods shop was out of it, so I got some 124gn Speer Gold Dot and Federal 124gn Hydra-Shok to play with until I can find the GS.

Side question: The GD was around $13 for 20, and the HS was around $13 for 50. The price performance of the HS is outstanding. What gives? Just a sale or something?

I have heard a few things about this. From what I hear I think Federal is shifting to the Federal Tactical (?) for their main LE and defensive round. I have also heard some bad things about the Hydra-shoks performance.

From what I have seen I think Gold Dots are one of the best. I think Golden Saber is in a very close second for my personal use. I use Gold Dot's 185gr in my carry 45.

DHart

06-18-2004, 11:52

Is it possible for the average joe (non-LEO) shooter to obtain Ranger ammo?

oldgranpa

06-18-2004, 12:01

we all have good opinions. I'm not aware of any actual shooting results with the PM9 yet and a report on ammo performance. Until then my "opinion" is the Remington 124gr Golden Saber. Don't want to use +p in my PM9 yet.
og

IMAS

06-18-2004, 12:09

Originally posted by DHart
Is it possible for the average joe (non-LEO) shooter to obtain Ranger ammo?

Yes I have been told it is but I haven't really seen it around much so I didn't really give it much consideration.

I carried Win White Box JHP for a while. I felt just as confident in it as I do my Gold Dots.

Michigun

06-18-2004, 12:30

Originally posted by DHart
Is it possible for the average joe (non-LEO) shooter to obtain Ranger ammo?

Easy to find if you know the right guy & cheaper then any other defensive round out there… Jerry Kirkpatrick here on Glocktalk carries all the Ranger ammo & can be e-mailed at jwkpatrick@yahoo.com

Here is the link to his Ranger ammo for sale on GT:

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=247845&highlight=Ranger

Try buying (or finding for that matter) a box of 50 Gold-Dots for only $18! (If you see (& you will) a box of Ranger ammo going for any more then $25 a box of 50 it isn’t a good deal!)

P.S. I've personally dealt with Jerry a few times & can/will highly recommend him!

IMAS

06-18-2004, 13:00

Originally posted by Michigun
Easy to find if you know the right guy & cheaper then any other defensive round out there… Jerry Kirkpatrick here on Glocktalk carries all the Ranger ammo & can be e-mailed at jwkpatrick@yahoo.com

Here is the link to his Ranger ammo for sale on GT:

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=247845&highlight=Ranger

Try buying (or finding for that matter) a box of 50 Gold-Dots for only $18! (If you see (& you will) a box of Ranger ammo going for any more then $25 a box of 50 it isn’t a good deal!)

P.S. I've personally dealt with Jerry a few times & can/will highly recommend him!

Speer Gold Dot runs about $21 for 40 on Cheaperthandirt.com but I have seen it cheaper elsewhere.

Gunbroker.com has some selling for $49 for 250rnds. That is about $10 for 50rnds

Michigun

06-19-2004, 09:14

Originally posted by IMAS
Gunbroker.com has some selling for $49 for 250rnds. That is about $10 for 50rnds

That's also reclassified ammo which is intended for practice only. (I used to be able to get those same 250 round Gold-Dot packs for $30 out the door.)

cal45

06-19-2004, 09:16

I currently have my PM9 stocked with the lighter 115 +p Cor Bon's because of the shorter barrel.

Wulfenite

06-19-2004, 09:45

Pro Load 124+p Gold Dot.

Sgt127

06-19-2004, 14:30

115 gr WW HP personal defense ammo. Its dirt cheap at Walmart. I use it for practice and carry and I know it runs in my gun without beating it up.

Climb14er

06-19-2004, 18:24

I use Gold Dot 115gr. JHP's as they feed very reliably through the PM9.

chiz45

06-19-2004, 19:50

Speer Gold Dot 147 gr. (because it's readily available)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr (easily obtainable as well)

from reading ammo-dedicated web resources, it seems that 147gr or 124+P offer the more reliable performance, being reliable expansion and adequate expansion.

While the Gold Dot sold by ammoman was marked "Not for LE" or whatever, it is good for testing the ammo. i put 200 rounds of it thru my G19 for reliability testing. Interestingly, even though it was marked practice only, i have not had a single failure in about 700 rounds fired.

I don't like +Ps out of such a light pistol, but the 147s BARELY clear the ejection port for me. I've even managed to have a live round trapped between the hood and the breech face before. lame.

Colorado Fatboy

06-19-2004, 21:21

Originally posted by chiz45

While the Gold Dot sold by ammoman was marked "Not for LE" or whatever, it is good for testing the ammo. i put 200 rounds of it thru my G19 for reliability testing. Interestingly, even though it was marked practice only, i have not had a single failure in about 700 rounds fired.

Same experience here! I bought about 1000 rounds for My G-27 and haven't had one problem. They recalled a BUNCH of that Gold Dot, I guess they turned around and sold it instead of tossing it. For the price you can't go wrong!

chiz45

06-19-2004, 22:46

my understanding was that there was a problem with a batch of primers?

Short Cut

06-20-2004, 00:18

Originally posted by DHart
Just curious to know what defense ammo tends to be the most reliable functioning in the PM9. My understanding is that the 124 gr +P JHP seems to be the hot ticket in 9mm defense right now... what are your thoughts on this and other rounds regarding reliable functioning in a PM9?

That's the same ammo I use 124 grain +P Gold Dots. I bought a bunch of it when Speer reclassified a ton of this ammo because of a mistake that was made in using the wrong primer. The difference if I recall correctly is that the LE spec had a piece of foil in the primer and the ammo Speer made used a different factory primer without the foil. It is still great ammo and when I shot some of this side by side with the much more expensive 20 per box 124 +P Gold Dots I could not tell the difference.

Initially I was uncertain about this ammo because it was a third the price of the boutique box Gold Dots so I only bought 250 rounds. When all of that worked perfectly I bought a thousand, burned through that then bought two thousand more. I don't shoot the PM9 all that often because I don't carry it all that often either, but when I do shoot it I shoot this same carry ammo through it with great results.

This ammo has gone up in price, but it is still available
http://www.ammoman.com/webstore_9mm.htm

Dandapani

06-20-2004, 16:36

Originally posted by dmobrien2001
However, my local sporting goods shop was out of it, so I got some 124gn Speer Gold Dot and Federal 124gn Hydra-Shok to play with until I can find the GS.

I shot the GD and HS today into soaked telephone books. I also shot 22 LR HP and WWB 115 FMJ as test. The picture says it all.

Round Penetration
WWB 115 11"
GD 6"
HS 5"
22LR HP 4,5" (one keyholed and stopped at 4"0

All the 9mm were shot out of Kahr PM9. The 22 was out of Beretta Bobcat (mouse gun).

Expansion as you would expect. GD less, higher penetration. HS more, less penetration. WWB and 22 no expansion and penetrated more than expected. WWB 115 FMJ is not defense ammo, that's for sure.

I was pleased with the expansion of both the GD and HS. These were non +p ammo. Recoil was fine. My PM9 worked flawlessly.

http://img132.echo.cx/img132/2900/dscn11755lt.th.jpg (http://img132.echo.cx/my.php?image=dscn11755lt.jpg)

drofnas

06-20-2004, 19:29

I'm kinda partial to the +P with the shorter barrel. I want to get as much velocity as I can. I understand that much of the blast will simply go out of the muzzle, but the hope is that more of it is behind the bullet than with standard load rounds.

For the CorBon's, I use the 115 +P's. This is also what I carry in my G26. I am tending toward the CorBon Powerball 100 +P's though. I'm a bit skiddish on feeding issues. I've had NO problems not caused by me in this gun, but to be in the safe side, the Powerballs feed like round nose. (Polymer inserts in the hollow point.)

There is something about the added "umphh" of those 100 +P's cruising out of that 15 ounce gun!

Dandapani

06-20-2004, 20:26

Originally posted by drofnas
I'm kinda partial to the +P with the shorter barrel.

I plan on standardizing on a std pressure 9mm round for both my PM9 (keep the pounding down 'cause I practice with what I carry...) and for the planned Rohrbaugh R9-S I have on order since it requires std pressure 9mm.

Has anyone done a chrono on +p vs std on short barrel guns? Is there enough barrel to take advantage of the increase in powder and pressure? Do we need a new thread?

Besides, if I wanted to carry a 9mm on steroids, I can always carry my G33 :)

Catbird

06-21-2004, 09:30

Until I find something decisively better, I've decided to load my PM9 with Winchester Ranger "T" series 147 grain ammo (RA9T). For me, it is the most accurate and easy-to-shoot, modern, high performance ammunition that I've tried. FWIW, CorBon 115 grain +P HPs were the least accurate in my PM9.

I also recommend Jerry Kirkpatrick for your Winchester Ranger ammo needs: jwkpatrick@yahoo.com

wbjenks

06-21-2004, 10:41

I am rather pleased with Federal 135g PD HS. I have had no problems with feed and or function and hopefully never find out how effective the round is. My 2 cents worth.

oldgranpa

06-21-2004, 12:08

Congratulations to dmobrien2001 for your excellent HP test data and picture. It's really pleasing to see others trying the wet paper test for HP ammo. That provides support for all of us willing to try it. And dm got similar results that I did with the PM9, shown in my old post before the Kahr Club formed:
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=254037

While the wet paper test for hollowpoint expansion is not recognized as "ballistic", "FBI certified", etc. I'm convinced it is valid and a fun, cheap test that lets you see what ammo will do out of your handgun. Very few of us can afford gelatin or have the facilities, refrigerator, and close enough range to use it. After several years of testing, I've found that the wet paper gives close enough results with results published for gelatin to be meaningful. If enough of us are willing to give it a try and publish results, it might become more accepted.

I hope some of you shooting the +p stuff will try it and give us a report.

Cheers,
og

jim hutch

06-25-2004, 17:30

I am a powr' ball guy...love the stuff and so does my pm9;a

29 toter

06-25-2004, 21:21

Has anyone given any thought to using Glaser or Magsafe in the PM9? Magsafe makes a load that is made for short barrel guns I believe they call it the mini glock load. Light bullet traveling super fast.

chiz45

06-25-2004, 23:31

Originally posted by 29 toter
Has anyone given any thought to using Glaser or Magsafe

From reading Doc Roberts' stuff, it seems that these rounds do not offer adequate penetration for self-defense loads.

halfmoonclip

06-28-2004, 09:02

I like the CorBon 115 +P; no complaints on accuracy or feeding, and the chrono data is impressive:

Average Velocity: 1273 fps
Standard Deviation: 10
Extreme spread: 30
Gun: Kahr K9
It makes the Kahr bark, but isn't hard to control out of a steel gun.

The same load will do 1500 fps out of a Ruger PC9.
Moon

CougarRed

07-02-2004, 09:21

I am partial to the federal EFMJ 124 +p. Mild recoil, very easy to shoot, very accurate, no malfunctions with my P9 covert, and based on ammolab's results, very reliable (11.5-14.5" penetration, .51-.53" expansion, 1055-1080 fps velocity).

I have not tried any of the 147 grains.

I have tried the Ranger Talon 115 +p+. Much more recoil and muzzle flip. Not painful to shoot, but at the end of the clip, my hand would flinch a little in anticipation, affecting my accuracy.

ewayte

07-05-2004, 20:57

I've settled on Remington Golden Saber 124gr. +P as the carry ammo for my PM9.

I tried Corbon 115gr., PowRBall 100gr., and Federal HydraShok 135 gr. The regular Corbon failed to feed, while the PowRBall had too much kick and fire. Federal wasn't +P, but would do in a pinch.

ColoradoPacker

07-06-2004, 23:42

I carry Ranger 127gr +p+ in my PM9 - reliable, accurate, and have a history of good performance.

I have also had good functioning with Corbon 115gr +p and Corbon Powerball but only carry the PB for the winter, don't carry the 115 +p.

Corbon 124gr +p failed to feed more than 50% of the time, maybe because of the wide sharp HP mouth?

Haven't tried anything else except blazer and sellier and bellot.

Dandapani

07-11-2004, 13:57

I tested some 147 grn today in my PM9. Shot into soaked phone books. Only had time for two shots each variety before it started to rain. I will go back and repeat the two rounds that had the "flyers". All shot well.

I tested:

Winchester Ranger (the LEO variety)
Speer Gold Dot
Remington Golden Sabre
Winchester White Box JHP

Overall I was pleased with the recoil, nice boom rather than crack. All penetrated well. Recall, oldgranpa's formula into wet paper, multiple by 3 and divide by two to get similar gelatin penetration. All expanded (see photo) well.

Round Penetration (inches)
Win Ranger 7.26, 7.5
Speer GD 7.5, 6.25 (flyer, hit spine)
Rem GS 7.5, 6.0 (keyhole owing to proximity of other hole)
WWB JHP 8.75, 8.75

Surprising was the penetration and expansion of the cheap WWB JHP. MUCH cheaper than Ranger with better penetration and similar expansion.

Conclusion? I will retest GS for consistency and will likely purchase case of it for carry. GD would be a second choice and easier to find than Ranger. In a pinch WallyWorldBox of the JHP would be just fine. As you can see, I'm leaning toward big heavy bullet in standard pressure for short barrel gun.

Comments?
http://img26.exs.cx/img26/9982/147grn3fk.th.jpg (http://img26.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img26&image=147grn3fk.jpg)

edit to add PS: retest of GS shows consistent 7.5" penetration. Didn't bother with GD retest :)

DHart

07-11-2004, 14:19

dmo... awesome testing and post you did there! Thanks so much for sharing the info. Looks like GS in standard pressure is a good choice for the little Kahrs. I'm heading to the range today to, finally, test out my new PM-9!

oldgranpa

07-11-2004, 20:00

dmo,
thank you for sharing your excellent test results with us. All of my wetpack test data is now found only at KTRange.com in the Articles Section...... http://www.ktrange.com/articles/a10/a10.html

og

Michigun

07-12-2004, 07:00

Originally posted by dmobrien2001
Comments?

From your picture above dmobrien2001, I’ll take the Winchester 147-grain Ranger-T load… the “petals” will keep cutting tissue where the other rounds would just be “pushing” tissue out of the way. (I’d rather my bullet cut an artery as it goes by instead of just pushing past it!)

In the gelatin tests I’ve seen the Winchester 147-grain Ranger-T load penetrates 13-14 inches & does VERY well against other barrier types too.

FYI, I wouldn’t feel unarmed with any of the choices in that picture!

Dandapani

07-12-2004, 07:34

Originally posted by Michigun
From your picture above dmobrien2001, I’ll take the Winchester 147-grain Ranger-T load… the “petals” will keep cutting tissue where the other rounds would just be “pushing” tissue out of the way. (I’d rather my bullet cut an artery as it goes by instead of just pushing past it!)

I wondered about the little pointy edges on the jacket. Nice. The GS is pretty sharp also, but won't grab like the Rangers. Thanks for "pointing" (sic) that out! :)

Michigun

07-12-2004, 09:57

By the way, forgot to add that you pointing out “ammo availability” is right on! Makes no sense to function test ammo that you’re not sure if you can get more boxes of regularly/easily. I personally consider on-line ammo sources good regular/easy sources, but definitely understand that others don’t. (I’m willing to go to just about any length to get the ammo I want, which can be & has been hard at times!) I understand that others might want to be able to find their chosen ammo locally if they need a box of it on a whim or need a box while away from home/their ammo stash. Using on-line ammo sources will definitely require some amount of planning, as you most certainly won’t be able to just go grab a box or 2 off their shelf. I also understand that not everybody wants to or can just buy 1,000+ rounds at one time, which can sometimes be the only way to go with some on-line ammo places.

However, there are several sources to get Ranger-T ammo here on Glocktalk alone… if one of them doesn’t have the exact Ranger you want the other will more then likely. Ranger-T ammo is one of the best all around choices available & it is also just about the most inexpensive round available as long as you find someone not trying to rob ya while reselling it. THIS GUY (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211217&highlight=ranger) can get you 50 rounds of Ranger-T 147-grainers shipped to your door for a little over $20… I don’t know about you guys, but I can’t even get 40 rounds of Speer Gold-Dot 147-grainers from ANY of my local ammo places for that… most of them want right around $12 + sales tax per a 20 round box!

WIG19

07-12-2004, 10:38

Michigun, thanks for the ammo source info & I concur w/your opinion about petals. (Am in process of rotating last of my HS out and will probably be going to 124gr EFMJ.) Great club you all have here. And thanx dmobrien for the tests/pics!

A G19 is usually close at hand (in the winter might even be a 17); initially started thinking of a 26 when faced with alot of summer situations, light dress, public places that lend themselves to fanny-packs, etc., but wanted to go even more compact than that. It is very much starting to look like the Kahr (either the PM9 or very likely the P9 Covert) is more the ticket. Seems to be just that bit less length, that slightly smaller footprint. Most of you seem very pleased with your Kahrs so I'll just hang out & research for awhile. But it's looking like my compact family addition may be an "adopted" child rather than have Glock genes in it.

Thanx for the very informative forum area! ^c

Michigun

07-12-2004, 11:17

Originally posted by WIG19
Michigun, thanks for the ammo source info...

No problem… Jerry is a GREAT guy to do business with! I’ve had SEVERAL deals with him in the recent past & can/will definitely recommend him.

Originally posted by WIG19
... will probably be going to 124gr EFMJ.

I like the 124-grain +p EFMJ all-around too… they are one of my main defensive ammo choices for my Covert & PM9. They expand in everything I’ve shot them thru & into! They also have lower recoil then any other +p round (they are slower then most however) I’ve shot, have low flash & feed VERY well due to their design. (I just wish Federal hadn’t turned the 124-grain +p EFMJ into an “LEO only round”… it’s going to make them a bit harder to get… there’s always the new 105-grain EFMJ, but I prefer the original 124-grained EFMJ.)

Originally posted by WIG19
... starting to look like the Kahr (either the PM9 or very likely the P9 Covert) is more the ticket.

After owning 2 PM9’s & 1 P9 Covert I have to vote for the P9 Covert now… I love that thing for a gun that can “do it all” VERY well! See these pictures of my Covert HERE (http://www.glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=2611150), HERE (http://www.glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=2611158) & HERE (http://www.glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=2612787)… notice in the 1st picture that the 7-round Kahr mags are loaded with Federal’s 124-grain +p EFMJ! ^c

Originally posted by WIG19
... it's looking like my compact family addition may be an "adopted" child rather than have Glock genes in it.

Don’t feel bad, I’m also a GLOCK guy mostly & ended up selling my G26 because I always passed it over going from my G19 right to the Covert or PM9. Not to mention that the Kahr has a lot like features that the GLOCK has… I call my Kahr K9 my “all steel GLOCK” in fact.

WIG19

07-12-2004, 12:36

Originally posted by Michigun
Don’t feel bad, I’m also a GLOCK guy mostly & ended up selling my G26 because I always passed it over going from my G19 right to the Covert or PM9. Not to mention that the Kahr has a lot like features that the GLOCK has… I call my Kahr K9 my “all steel GLOCK” in fact.
Thanks again; that sounds exactly like the rationale that is leading me that way. My 19 is a close friend but when I wanna "really go small" I'll sacrifice a couple rounds to be a chameleon turista in my shorts, flip-flops & OCC shirt. (Maybe a Greenpeace shirt works better, but fashion is another whole ugly discussion.) ;f

Just ballparking the cost, I see GunSource with the Covert at $530. My regular local dealer can usually meet (for me, anyway) online prices for Glocks & I like supporting his business. Is $530 a reasonable esimate for the Covert? But even at the above price, the Kahr isn't that much over a G26 in some markets - probably not alot of good used ones on the market 'cause no one is parting with theirs.

As to the 124gr EFMJ, I kinda gave Federal a bit of static over that "LEO-only" biz. A friend got me a couple of boxes from Ammoman on a 5-box order with some other stuff, looks like I may have to just do that again with a full order to get enough to keep for awhile. (I have no interest really in their 105gr offering.)
Thanks again to you & others for the nice club area. Areas like this really give another postive dimension (versus dementia) to GT. ^c

Michigun

07-12-2004, 13:12

$530 isn’t a bad price… my local FFL shop sells them for $519.

FYI, Ammoman is where I got my 1st 1,000 rounds of the 124-grain +p EFMJ… when I got close to running that supply down my local FFL shop ordered me another 500 rounds & got 500 for themselves… I ended up buying 400 of those a little later on. (Would have purchased the full 500, but they sold a few boxes on me…) They can’t get anymore 124-grainers now as I had them try a little while back for me. I had just enough EFMJ to do a decent function test with my latest Kahr (Covert) & all of its mags… I have less then 50 rounds left as spares after filling 3 of my 7-rounders. I’m trying to decide whether or not to just go with the 147-grain Ranger-T's from here on out... need to do a little more function testing with the Rangers & my 7-rounders 1st before I decide. The 147-grain Rangers do have a little less overall recoil then the +p EFMJs do…….

WIG19

07-12-2004, 13:53

Originally posted by Michigun
I’m trying to decide whether or not to just go with the 147-grain Ranger-T's from here on out... need to do a little more function testing with the Rangers & my 7-rounders 1st before I decide.

Thanx for still more valuable input; will be waiting to hear how the 147gr testing goes. So many quality bullets to choose from nowadays; I may go that way myself when everything else runs out if no EFMJ available. BTW, my desires in downsizing when the 19 stays home are really obvious in the great "seen from above" comparison pic in 911's fine review. The 26 is a really great little gun but it sure looks fat compared to the PM9. :) And it's getting to be steam-bath time around this part of the country. I think it's time to go shopping for a Covert. Since it'll involve more than some trigger contact points, maybe I'll Agrip my dremel. ;f

Take care & thanx again. (I suppose there's a 'Michigan-thing' involved in your avatar that will come to me someday but my guesses probably aren't appropriate for this forum.):joker:

Michigun

07-12-2004, 14:12

Originally posted by WIG19
(I suppose there's a 'Michigan-thing' involved in your avatar that will come to me someday but my guesses probably aren't appropriate for this forum.):joker:

You're on the right track sir... actually sounds like you have it figured out! ;f

(It's an old joke here in Michigan that I thought EVERYONE knew about everywhere... I've been asked about it from so many out-of-state’ers that I now know it was mainly a Michigan joke.)

Dandapani

07-12-2004, 15:01

Originally posted by Michigun

However, there are several sources to get Ranger-T ammo here on Glocktalk alone…

can get you 50 rounds of Ranger-T 147-grainers shipped to your door for a little over $20… I don’t know about you guys, but I can’t even get 40 rounds of Speer Gold-Dot 147-grainers from ANY of my local ammo places for that… most of them want right around $12 + sales tax per a 20 round box!

Yup. From the Ranger-T guy, $20+$7.50 shipping for one 50 round box. Recent price increase. 10 boxes shipped total would be $215.

I paid:

$14.99 for Rem GS (25 rounds)
$12.99 for Speer GD (20 rounds)
$10.99 for WWB JHP (50 rounds)

at my local large gunstore (not counting the 7% sales tax).

Colorado Fatboy

07-12-2004, 18:52

Just another plug for Jerry the Ranger ammo guy. I just got my order from him today. This guy is GREAT to deal with, he knows how to communicate and shipped my order fast. You won't be disappointed!

Dandapani

07-13-2004, 14:19

Addendum: I shot 3 six rounder magazines of the WWB 147 JHP for functionality testing at my swinging metal plate target and found that POA was closer to POI than with the lighter weight bullets. I then noticed that ocassionally I could make the plate swing completely around if I shot it low enough. This is amazing since I couldn't do this with any of the lighter weight (115, 124) std pressure ammo I had shot previously. So in my not too scientific way, I'm convinced that out of the short barrel the heavier bullet (147) can transfer more real energy to its target than the lighter, faster rounds. I'm going to shoot up the WWB stuff, then proceed to shoot up the premium 147 grainers. I expect to see similar results.

BTW: I agree with Michigun and others. The Ranger ammo is a steal in comparison to the other premium ammo. While I like the GS better (same penetration, little better expansion than the Ranger), the price is much better with the Ranger.

Gunmeister

07-23-2004, 15:18

Cor-Bon Pow R Ball is great stuff. They will even feed in a rough feed ramp like some of those subject to recall. For practice, I use WWB ball stuff at $10.00 a box of 100 from Wally World and the Pow R Ball for CCW. No feed probs here.

CougarRed

07-23-2004, 18:15

Corbon is great stuff?

Coulda fooled me (and the bare and clothed gel/FBI tests, etc.)

cole

08-27-2004, 10:40

Originally posted by dmobrien2001
I tested some 147 grn today in my PM9. Shot into soaked phone books. Only had time for two shots each variety before it started to rain. I will go back and repeat the two rounds that had the "flyers". All shot well.

I tested:

Winchester Ranger (the LEO variety)
Speer Gold Dot
Remington Golden Sabre
Winchester White Box JHP

Overall I was pleased with the recoil, nice boom rather than crack. All penetrated well. Recall, oldgranpa's formula into wet paper, multiple by 3 and divide by two to get similar gelatin penetration. All expanded (see photo) well.

Round Penetration (inches)
Win Ranger 7.26, 7.5
Speer GD 7.5, 6.25 (flyer, hit spine)
Rem GS 7.5, 6.0 (keyhole owing to proximity of other hole)
WWB JHP 8.75, 8.75

Surprising was the penetration and expansion of the cheap WWB JHP. MUCH cheaper than Ranger with better penetration and similar expansion.

Conclusion? I will retest GS for consistency and will likely purchase case of it for carry. GD would be a second choice and easier to find than Ranger. In a pinch WallyWorldBox of the JHP would be just fine. As you can see, I'm leaning toward big heavy bullet in standard pressure for short barrel gun.

Comments?

<img src="http://www.glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=2801721"/>

edit to add PS: retest of GS shows consistent 7.5" penetration. Didn't bother with GD retest :)

Nice post. Great image.

I've always used the GS 165gr in our .40. Great performer overall IMHO.

Prefer the GS round overall. Use it also in our .357 mag.

Have new P9 and will be using the GS here, as well. Been kicking around the bullet weight, 125 or 147. Good info here to consider. Thanks.

cole

08-27-2004, 10:47

Originally posted by chiz45
my understanding was that there was a problem with a batch of primers?

The primers are harder. Shoot these and non-reclassifed (GD or others) then check the primers. Every few rounds of the re-classifieds has a noticably slightly primer indent. Some concerningly so IMHO.

Likely more relevent in striker fired guns than hammer fired. Our striker fired HK indents primer more than our stricker fired Glock or Kahr.

Bottomline for me: I would not use this for CCW.

BoNoKahr

07-04-2005, 22:09

dmobrien2001's post on expansion of 147gr would be well supplemented by chronos for those rounds. I suspect chronos would be about 890 to 950 fps.

Anybody have chronographs for 147 grains out of PM9 or similar length (3 inches) barrel?

I'm particularly interested in chronos for these loads:

Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester White Box 147 gr JHP (USA147JHP2)

DHart

07-05-2005, 01:08

I've been liking the Winchester USA White box 115 gr JHP in my PM-9, but it's totally subjective as I've done no tests whatsoever.

Other's have noted excellent performance with the WWB 115 gr JHP load. It's very economical (around $10 per box of 50). I can afford to shoot the heck out of it to be confident in it's feeding reliability and accuracy. Feeds through my PM-9 flawlessly. Easy on the gun as well. I'll probably just stick with this load with the PM-9 as it runs like a top. Anyone chronyed it from a PM-9 yet?

Due the the really short barrel, my inclination is to go with the lighter (115 gr.) bullet weight to help keep the speed up, but this is one gun and caliber where I don't have enough experience to make recommendations.

I tried some 9mm SIlvertip HP's and they had a tendency to jam right straight into the right side of the feed ramp! I think I'll reserve those for my Hi-Power.

BackDraft

07-05-2005, 21:36

I currently use 124+P Federal EFMJ and testing out the HST 124 & 147 Federal loads. So far the HST is impressive. The EFMJ in my own testing has expanded 100% of the time. My Kahr has a prefers Federals as far as group size also.The groups from these were under 2" at 15 yards. Other loads I have used are
Federal 124+P+ Hydra-Shok my source has dried up for these.
CorBons 115+P & 100 +P Pow-R-Ball.
The CorBons worked well but the groups were more than double in size compared to the Federal loads. The SilverTips 115 were pretty good but trying to get ahold on some 147 SilverTips to testAll the loads mentioned are great loads I went with the ones that shoot better out of my guns. Just my .02.

BoNoKahr

07-05-2005, 22:54

Originally posted by dmobrien2001
I tested some 147 grn today in my PM9. Shot into soaked phone books. Only had time for two shots each variety before it started to rain. I will go back and repeat the two rounds that had the "flyers". All shot well.

I tested:

Winchester Ranger (the LEO variety)
Speer Gold Dot
Remington Golden Sabre
Winchester White Box JHP

Overall I was pleased with the recoil, nice boom rather than crack. All penetrated well. Recall, oldgranpa's formula into wet paper, multiple by 3 and divide by two to get similar gelatin penetration. All expanded (see photo) well.

Round Penetration (inches)
Win Ranger 7.26, 7.5
Speer GD 7.5, 6.25 (flyer, hit spine)
Rem GS 7.5, 6.0 (keyhole owing to proximity of other hole)
WWB JHP 8.75, 8.75

Surprising was the penetration and expansion of the cheap WWB JHP. MUCH cheaper than Ranger with better penetration and similar expansion.

Conclusion? I will retest GS for consistency and will likely purchase case of it for carry. GD would be a second choice and easier to find than Ranger. In a pinch WallyWorldBox of the JHP would be just fine. As you can see, I'm leaning toward big heavy bullet in standard pressure for short barrel gun.

Comments?
http://img26.exs.cx/img26/9982/147grn3fk.th.jpg (http://img26.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img26&image=147grn3fk.jpg)

edit to add PS: retest of GS shows consistent 7.5" penetration. Didn't bother with GD retest :)

My concern with the results of this test is that it shows inadequate penetration. At 7.5" doesn't that put 3 of the 4 147gr at 11.25" for a bare gel? That is a marginal failure outside of the 12"-14" sweet spot in a bare gel. Shouldn't a succesful wetpack shot penetrate at least 8" in to the wetpack? The conclusion I'm drawing is that the 147gr are traveling fast enough to still expand, but their velocity is still so slow out of a 3" barrel that they are not quite penetrating enough.

If the 115gr are not expanding in the wetpack and zipping right through, what does that leave? the generic WWB 147gr? (LOL) 125gr+P? But is the PM9's barrel actually long enough for a +P round to make any difference?

DHart

07-06-2005, 02:31

Generally speaking when slowing a round down, penetration usually increases (to a point and all other factors being equal) because at the lower velocity there is less expansion and if a bullet expands less, it will tend to penetrate more.

I would expect the faster 115 gr. to expand more readily and underpenetrate compared to a heavier slower bullet which I would expect to expand less and penetrate more. BUT OF COURSE, bullet design also plays a huge role in the rate of expansion and degree of penetration.

The speed which any particular bullet is designed to expand at must be taken into consideration. Over-drive a given JHP and it will over-expand too quickly and penetratation will suffer; many JHP designs will even disintegrate on impact if driven fast enough. High speed can be your worst enemy with JHP designs.... the bullet must be driven at the velocity it was designed to be driven at for the purpose intended. Under-drive any given round and it will have a tendency to expand very little and penetrate more, to a point though, at which even penetration will suffer.

For the most part it seems the conventional wisdom is for using lighter and faster loads from short barrels because velocity with the heavy bullets can suffer if the barrel isn't long enough to develop the speed. Of course the burn rate of the powder makes a big difference too! SLower powders would suffer with the short barrel whereas fast burning powders may be able to develop the desired velocity from the short barrel.

Speer has just released a new line of "SB" (for short barrel) defense loads which are designed speciaically for short barrelled guns. Their .38 spl +P 135 gr. Gold Dot has been out for a while and extremely well received. These loadings are designed to expand and penetrate well when moving at the velocities typically found with short barrel guns in caliber. I've ordered some of the 9mm version (124 gr. +P Gold Dot), but haven't received them yet. This will most likely turn out to be an excellent choice for the PM-9!

http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?s1=4&s2=3

windplex

10-19-2006, 10:35

Originally posted by dmobrien2001
I tested some 147 grn today in my PM9. Shot into soaked phone books. Only had time for two shots each variety before it started to rain. I will go back and repeat the two rounds that had the "flyers". All shot well.

I tested:
...
Round Penetration (inches)
Win Ranger 7.26, 7.5
Speer GD 7.5, 6.25 (flyer, hit spine)
Rem GS 7.5, 6.0 (keyhole owing to proximity of other hole)
WWB JHP 8.75, 8.75

...Conclusion? I will retest GS for consistency and will likely purchase case of it for carry. GD would be a second choice and easier to find than Ranger. In a pinch WallyWorldBox of the JHP would be just fine. As you can see, I'm leaning toward big heavy bullet in standard pressure for short barrel gun.

Comments?
http://img26.exs.cx/img26/9982/147grn3fk.th.jpg (http://img26.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img26&image=147grn3fk.jpg)

edit to add PS: retest of GS shows consistent 7.5" penetration. Didn't bother with GD retest :)

Are the pedals of the GS sharp as the Ranger talons are? Thank you for testing and sharing!!!!

Riz58

10-19-2006, 13:38

Not based upon personal knowledge, but some research I have seen states that the lighter 115 grain bullets do not perform as well out of a short barrel gun.

I have Winchester +p+ 115 Rangers in my Glock 17. The speeds are near 357 magnum out of the full size Glock.

In my Kahr CW( (same size as original poster's), I shoot a 124gr +p Speer Gold Dot. (Gold Dots are available locally.) I believe there is a "short-barrel" version out now as well. The 124gr seemed to perform best out of short barrel guns IIRC.

I have concerns that the poly Kahr can handle +p+, but the factory states that it will shoot +p just fine.

windplex

10-19-2006, 14:28

Originally posted by Riz58
Not based upon personal knowledge, but some research I have seen states that the lighter 115 grain bullets do not perform as well out of a short barrel gun.

I have Winchester +p+ 115 Rangers in my Glock 17. The speeds are near 357 magnum out of the full size Glock.

From what I have read I'd go heavier thatn 115. however YMMV

Originally posted by Riz58
In my Kahr CW( (same size as original poster's), I shoot a 124gr +p Speer Gold Dot. (Gold Dots are available locally.) I believe there is a "short-barrel" version out now as well. The 124gr seemed to perform best out of short barrel guns IIRC.

I have concerns that the poly Kahr can handle +p+, but the factory states that it will shoot +p just fine.

Bad idea to exceed their spelled out limit, IMHO.

You want your self defense weapon to work and not fail when you need it so don't push the power rating. Slower is better than failure when you need it IMVHO.

Wulfenite

10-19-2006, 14:45

Years ago when I got my mk9 I called John Kopel at Pro-Load to ask him what he thought the best load for it was. He suggested the 124+p gold dot so that's what I've kept it loaded with.

windplex

10-19-2006, 14:56

Originally posted by Wulfenite
Years ago when I got my mk9 I called John Kopel at Pro-Load to ask him what he thought the best load for it was. He suggested the 124+p gold dot so that's what I've kept it loaded with.

I merely suggested it is not swise to go harder/faster/higher pressure loads than the manufacturer's reccomendation IF you rely on it for self defense.

Primary thing a self defense weapon must do when the trigger is pulled is go boom. I don't do anything that reduces the chances of that happening every single time. But that is me.

To each his own.

USDefender

10-19-2006, 15:27

Originally posted by DHart
Just curious to know what defense ammo tends to be the most reliable functioning in the PM9. My understanding is that the 124 gr +P JHP seems to be the hot ticket in 9mm defense right now... what are your thoughts on this and other rounds regarding reliable functioning in a PM9?

For 9mm, my favorite is Corbon's 115 grain +P. Did a lot of reading about the success of this round before I chose it a couple of years back... There may be others with better records by now.

Originally posted by 29 toter
Has anyone given any thought to using Glaser or Magsafe in the PM9? Magsafe makes a load that is made for short barrel guns I believe they call it the mini glock load. Light bullet traveling super fast.

I like the Blue Glaser round for 'social situations' (i.e. the opera, at the movies, Church) where there are a lot of people around me. Once it hits the target, the chances of going through & hurting an unintended victim are seriously minimized if not negated.

However, Glasers have gotten so expensive where I'm from, I've had to quit using them.

Originally posted by IMAS
From what I have seen I think Gold Dots are one of the best. I think Golden Saber is in a very close second for my personal use. I use Gold Dot's 185gr in my carry 45.

My local PD switched from Gold Dots to Golden Sabers (in .40) about a year ago because some of the officers were complaining about the muzzle flash of the Gold Dots in the dark. Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.

I currently carry .40, 165 grain Golden Sabers because that's what my PD carries. ;)

BackDraft

10-20-2006, 08:05

I have been using the EFMJ 124+P for over a year and its works great out of my E9,very little flash and recoil is mild. As afr as testing how it expands out of my Kahr it does it every time. As far as 147 grain loads goes, I tried a bunch when I decided not to use and my supply of 124+P+ Hydra Shoks dried up. I found that out of my Kahr in 124 grain loads the 124+P EFMJ was most accurate over Gold Dot, CorBon, as far as 147 grain loads Winchester SilverTip and Federal HST were more accrate for me. I tested both on how they expanded when shot from my Kahr and the HST did better than the SilverTip. Now recently I tried 124+p Golden Sabers and was really surprised on how they shot.I haven't tested them in the gel yet but will be testing sometime next month.