How are the PM40's now, really?

[lewis]

I ask this because I had an early one that was just horrible. Kahr customer service did replace it and I killed my hands trying to break in the second one and it was jammamatic also. The typical failure to go all the way into battery failure. I ended up getting rid of it and my other kahrs because I got so pissed off. I know it was a mistake now (see my thread about getting my k40 back.) Anyway, I love the concept of the PM40, I was just wondering if they have gotten them straightened out yet.

[oldguy]

Can't really answer your question but in my opinion only the 40 is
just too muuch pressure for many of the small polymer guns, at some point in making pistols "too small" we lose quality, reliability,
and just plain fun in shooting, i have 40's but in steel full size models they shoot fine, accurate, etc,but in the small guns I go no
bigger then 9mm. I have a 2003 elite mk9 and so far it is great very
little recoil, accurate and a joy to shoot. i have been reloading
and shooting over 40 years and I know many will disagree but any
gun under 20oz for the 40cal is going to see a short life.

[Tennessee Slim]

I bought one about 10 weeks ago that already has gone back for a little doctoring. After break-in it still had multiple problems so I returned it. It’s better now but I’m not yet convinced it’s suitably reliable for CC. For one thing, it’s very particular about limp-wristing. Like oldguy says, there’s so much power in the cartridge and so little mass in the mechanism, I think it’s a precarious balance that makes it cycle reliably. Maybe too precarious. I’m still seeing FTEs with 135-gr. Cor-Bon (which I had planned to use as my CC/SD ammo) that I suspect is related to the power of the load. Frank Harris @Kahr told me the PM40 prefers light bullets; I think it also might prefer light loads.

FWIW, I’ve been watching a similar thread on another firearms-related board asking if anyone has a PM40 that they’re satisfied with. Not just new out of the box, but period, even after being “fixed” by Kahr. That thread was started four days ago (17 June) and as yet there’s not been one affirmative answer.

[oldguy]

One thing you can try TS is a lube called fp10 basically give it a bath in this stuff, I "think" rubbing of the slide on polymer frame
is some of the problems, I just did not like the look of the Kahr
plastic frames or the ones I have seen at gun shows. That is the
reason I went with the mk9 over the pm9.

[Michigun]

Originally posted by oldguy
Can't really answer your question but in my opinion only the 40 is just too muuch pressure for many of the small polymer guns, at some point in making pistols "too small" we lose quality, reliability, and just plain fun in shooting...

My thoughts exactly on the PM40... I feel the same about the MK40 as well.

[Hipshot]

I just had my PM40 at the range this past weekend, trying diferent ammo and different mags. I had my gun back at the factory after I bought it, new, since it would fail to feed the first and sometimes the second round from a topped off mag with one in the chamber. They polished the feed ramp and a couple other things, and it is substantially better. I also played with different mag springs; the original and one mag with Wolff spring. After about 300 rounds, this is what I've discovered.

After leaving all my mags (long and short) fully loaded for 3 weeks the gun is much better. With original spring in the short and the long mags, only 1 failure to feed first round out of the mag; all the rest fed properly. With the one mag with Wolff spring is a long one, and it continues to FTF first or second round with a few ammo types. I'm convinced now that there are a few things that can help and will eventually eliminate my FTFs. One is be sure that I don't limp wrist. Another is to choose factory ammo that works, but wait until several hundred or more rounds have gone through the gun. Handload to the short overall length (I'm handloader for 40 years, too) basically 1.120". Keep mags loaded for a month or more.

I found less FTF with heavy bullets!

My only FTFs happened when the chamber was loaded and a full mag was inserted. IF there was going to be a FTF, the first round out of the mag would nosedive. 99% of the time I could hit the back of the slide with my off hand and the gun would go into battery. Some ammo that would FTF last month did not FTF this weekend and I attribute that to having the mag springs being under tension for two weeks straight. (This is counter intuitive; one usually needs a heavy mag spring to deal with the rapid slide movement of these short barrelled guns.) I suspect that there is too much pressure from the mag on the first round so that it slows down the slide and reduces the effect of the recoil spring. I'd love to get an increased recoil spring, but when I called Wolff they told me they don't make them for the PM40. Kahr doesn't carry them, either. Once I'm past the first round, the rest feed just fine.

I do use FP10 and also Mil-Tech on slides with this and other semi-autos I have.

I have records of all the types and weights of ammo used from day one and the results. I've tries just about all the 40 S&W I can find, including Aguila, Dynamite Nobel, Magtech, Federal, Winchester, Remington UMC), CorBon, Speer, Fiocchi and who knows what. I handload Winchester, Remington and Speer as well as Ranier in 155, 165 and 180. Speer #13 manual lists OAL of 1.120 (I think) and that's what I use, now. Powders include VV N340 and N350 and PowerPistol. I'm still experimenting with bullet weights and loads for what will feed reliably. I think that eventually the gun will break in and will feed reliably.

Basically, I like the gun. It rubs the corner of my web between thumb and forefinger when shooting a lot, so I just put a bandaid in the area and shoot. Recoil is a short jolt rather than a push. Doesn't bother me once the bandaid is in place.

[oldguy]

Hipshot, sounds like your on right track, I have found some auto pistols don't like a full mag. ( I wll take some heat over this however I usally care one round short), we were told in military years
ago to care 2-3 short in the m16.

these little pistols are great but beacuse of such short slide all
has to work perfect every time, not much room for dirt, etc. I'm sold
on fp10 it seems to make all guns work better, I have a 22/45 ruger,
plastic frame and it just made a great difference in it over time.

[Tennessee Slim]

I love the hell out of mine. It shoots great (when it shoots), it's more accurate than I am, and it packs one helluva wallop in a tiny package.

I will sort out every last problem, I don't care if it harelips the Pope.

[JackDRipper]

I have noticed with both my PM9 and new PM40 if I rack the slide to feed the top round of a full mag I get some failures to feed the first round. Whereas with the slide locked back and using the slide release to feed the first round they always feed for me.
Has anyone else had a Kahr mag follower break? The lower front of the plastic follower broke off and fell down in the mag body while I was shooting my new PM40 the other day. Only had about 100 rounds through it when it broke. The broken follower caused some failures to feed as I continued shooting the PM40. Kahr said they'd send a new follower.
I really like my PM9 and now new PM40 and find them "pleasant" to shoot for their size and weight. I had a Kel Tec P40 which was heavier and larger than the PM40 with much more recoil.
JR

[Hipshot]

I had a follower break in exactly the same place, in the front. I was able to use it by carefully inserting the first round into the mag. When I sent the PM40 back for adjustment and polishing I included the mag with the busted follower; they sent a new mag as replacement along with my gun.

Another observation on my PM40; this one is unusual for me:

I was cleaning the gun after my weekend range session of about 200 rounds or so. All variety and manner of commercial loads were fired. I expected to have a black, gooey mess to clean and was pleasantly surprised to see that the gun cleaned up remarkably quickly with my usual MPro-7. Literally, just a wipe in all the grooves, a q-tip in and around the trigger spring area and the rotating widget at the rear of the frame; hardly any powder residue in any place. Barrel cleaned up with a few strokes of brass brush with MPro-7. I did need a brass brush to get the hardened carbon off of the breach face. Dried with another patch and lubed with MilTech (this time; sometimes I use FP-10). This was by far the easiest, quickest cleanup for this gun. I think the use of FP-10 and/or MilTech is helpful in keeping fowling/residue from sticking. Any other opinions?

[oldguy]

I've posted this before but old folks repeat themselves often,
I use an air compressor to clean and lube with fp10, then around
1000 rounds I will dis-assemble and check for wear/cleaning, so
far my guns look and shoot as new.

[NGWT]

I bought my PM40 used about 5 months ago. I probably have around 800 rounds thru it and it has been perfect.

[32TUBB]

I'll make this as short as possible.

I bought a PM40 NIB, 200 rounds of Wally World White Box stuff and headed to the range. I'll skip all the details but I called the factory the next morning really honked off. I got a hold of Stefan Dorman (keep this name in a safe place...he's great). He told me to send it back.

They polished in all the right places, new recoil spring etc. and sent it back. Went back to the range and experienced a 29% failure rate. Called the factory the next morning. Stefan said to send it back and he'd send a brand new one. (The original one was built in October 2003.

Took the new one out to the range and put 200 rounds Of Speer 165 gr. HP through it with an 18% failure rate (all failure to feed). I brought it home, cleaned it and polished the entire barrel, the feed ramp and then (at Stefan's suggestion) lubed the hell out of the slide rails and the part of the polymer frame that the slide slides on with Tetra Gun Grease. This time I ran 20 Gold Dots and 60 Hydra-Shok through it and had an 18% failure rate but all failures were with the larger mag.

Realizing that I may have isolated the problem, I bought 50 rounds of Blazer FMJ and ran them through fast (all in the smaller mag). Not a single problem!:)

When I had the failures (slide locking to the rear), if I looked down inside at the magazine the round would be laying flat instead of the nose of the round being slightly elevated. That made me look closer at the six round mag and I found that without to much effort I could wiggle the extension + the extension was just barely touching the bottom of the grip, both of which were keeping the round from "pointing up" and subsequently preventing it from feeding into the chamber.

I called Stefan today and got the impression that Kahr may have identified with the fact that they're having some magazine issues. He's sending me a new mag to replace the defective one I've got now. I hope the new one is the shorter one. (BTW - the spring in the six round mag feels like it's at least twice as strong as the one in the five round mag)

I'm taking it back out tomorrow and running 100 rounds (UMC and Speer) through it using the five round mag. If it does what I think it's going to do I'll finally have what I wanted to begin with...a way accurate small framed large bore semi for CC that's dependable.

I'll let you know how that session turms out

[lewis]

This pretty much confirms my suspicions. My PM40 was an early one and it had constant failures of the slide to go all the way into battery, even after 250 rounds. I called the factory, ended up sending it back with all 5 of my mags. I called them and they said it worked fine for them, but they were sending me a brand new one anyway. I work part time at a gun store and when the new gun got to the store, they had only sent 2 mags and we had to call them to get the others. Someone else working in the store had a contact at Kahr and was able to get it straightened out. I was kind of turned off on the PM40 and traded the brand new one in instead of trying it out. The problem is, I love the concept of this little gun. My department issue duty round is the 165 gr. Golden Saber. If I could get a PM40 that would be reliable with this round, I would buy it in a heartbeat. I have heard they are redesigning the extractor and I have heard of mag problems. I think I am just going to wait a while longer until all the bugs are worked out, then get another one.

Thanks for the replies.

[32TUBB]

Lewis,

I was sharing this story with a friend of mine (an l.e.o.) and I called Justin Moon of Kahr "the Bill Gates of firearms". It seems like Gates, he releases stuff way ahead of its time.

If you go to Kahr section on pistolsmith.com and go way back and read the posts of the guys that bought the PM9s when they first came out it's like history repeating itself.

Over time they got the bugs worked out and now you can't pry the 9s from their hands.

I'm sitting here impatiently waiting for the range to open up. I'll let you know what happens.

[drofnas]

on history repeating itself. I had one of the early PM9's and had a ton of problems. I wish I'd bought the P9 Covert they had in the store at the time instead. I ended up bailing completely for a couple years. I now have a PM9 that any issues I've had were my fault. It's nice to be at fault when you can fix you and not spend another $540++.

Do what you need to do, but I'd wait a while and try again in a year or so.