Which manufacturers use forged steel frames and slides?

[Ludacris]

I want to know which makers to steer clear of, I don't want no stinkin' cast steel parts on any of my guns.

[Rob96]

Colt, Springfield, Kimber all use forged frames and slides.

[Ludacris]

Thank you Rob96 :)

What about Dan Wesson, Rock River Arms and Smith & Wesson?

[Rob96]

Rock River and S&W do as well. Don't know about Dan Wesson. Add to the list; Wilson, Baer, Clark. What are you looking to spend?

[Ludacris]

Originally posted by Rob96
Rock River and S&W do as well. Don't know about Dan Wesson. Add to the list; Wilson, Baer, Clark. What are you looking to spend?

I'm not looking at purchasing any of those(except perhaps a Wilson or a S&W). I'm just asking out of curiosity. Would you happen to know which grade stainless steel Wilson, S&W, Kimber and Springfield use for their frames and slides?

[Rob96]

It may be 416 grade ss. Don't quote me on that.

[adamsbomb]

Dan Wesson uses forged slides and cast frames on the major, and forged frames and slides on the patriot.

[glockophile]

Please clarify this. I am assuming that forged is better than cast? What does it mean in practical terms? Looking at the Dan Wesson site, it does indeed look like the partriot is all forged, and the major is half forged and half cast.

[gsbell]

Forged is generally better, more dense than cast.
But there are good cast guns out there.

[Rob96]

Caspian has very good cast products.

[SamColtFan]

To my knowledge, Colt is also one of the very few companies that uses forged slide stops in addition to forged frames and slides.

Regards,
Sam

[Rob96]

that uses forged slide stops in addition to forged frames and slides.


I think they are the only ones that are forged for this part.

[care-less]

I really am beside myself every time this subject is raised. Ruger pistols, revolvers, rifles, and shotguns are all cast; don't hear of too many people bad mouthing Ruger; mostly just praise about how tough they are. Browning/FN had to go to a cast frame on the 40 Hi-Power because the "forged" frames would not hold up!!! Imagine that! Now they use cast frames on all of the HP's. When you forge a part; the steel cannot be so tough or hard since you would wear out all your tooling machining it! With a cast part; you can use a tougher/harder steel since very little machining is required. Ruger casts for Caspian and many others. If properly done with quality steel; it will outlast anything that has ever been forged. Properly done is the key; no air voids, etc. Cheap cast parts are either done improperly, or use junk steel, and cannot match a forged part. All of that said, I still prefer forged myself; but only because I am old and fashioned; not because it is superior to cast. For guns that are going to be routinely shot with +P+ loads, etc; I prefer a cast frame. They will hold up better.

[gudel]

Ruger pistols, revolvers, rifles, and shotguns are all cast; don't hear of too many people bad mouthing Ruger; mostly just praise about how tough they are.

they're very inaccurate. i was not pleased with my p95. :( of course i wasn't shooting target at 50 yard, all i ask is hit the black from 7 yard. junk if you ask me. a glock 17 is more accurate than the p95.

i prefer forged parts for me. anyone know what a cold forged is?

[glockophile]

Originally posted by gudel
they're (Rugers) very inaccurate. i was not pleased with my p95. :( of course i wasn't shooting target at 50 yard, all i ask is hit the black from 7 yard. junk if you ask me. a glock 17 is more accurate than the p95.

That seems to be the reputation of Rugers: low-end, low-quality, cheap guns.

anyone know what a cold forged is?

Cold hammer forging is a method of making barrels. To make a cold forged barrel, a steel tube, with an inner diameter slightly larger than the desired bore diameter, is produced. A sintered mandrel is also produced. This mandrel has the form of the empty space of the finished bore. The mandrel is put in the tube, and together they are put into the hammer forge. The hammer forge is somewhat like a lathe, in that the assembly is spun around a carefully-aligned axis. As it spins, the hammer slams it repeatedly. After much slamming, the tube has been crushed around the mandrel, and the inside of the bore takes on the negative form of the mandrel. The mandrel is then spun out and used again.

This is how Glock barrels are made. It is not a competition-accurate way to make a barrel (not sure why) but it does produce a barrel with an exceptionally smooth work-hardened surface, making it very easy to clean and long-lasting. And it's accurate enough for real-world use, so all in all, it's a great way to make a barrel for Glocks. DW 1911s use hammer forged barrels, too, which is great.

Cold hammer forging has some benefits for barrel producers, too. It is very expensive to set up the equipment, but once it is set up, it allows very high-speed (effecient) production of highly consistent, high-quality barrels.

It's basically a cool way to make a barrel, but very expensive to get the machinery.

[G36's Rule]

Originally posted by gudel
they're very inaccurate. i was not pleased with my p95. :( of course i wasn't shooting target at 50 yard, all i ask is hit the black from 7 yard. junk if you ask me. a glock 17 is more accurate than the p95.

i prefer forged parts for me. anyone know what a cold forged is?

The problem is you, not the gun. All the Ruger pistols I've owned, including a P95, have been superbly accurate. And reliable.

[gudel]

Originally posted by G36's Rule
The problem is you, not the gun. All the Ruger pistols I've owned, including a P95, have been superbly accurate. And reliable.

if I can be accurate without even trying with HK USP45, XD40, SA Loaded 1911, Colt NRM 1911, Beretta 96 Brigadier, Glock 17, Glock 32, Glock 21, Glock 22 and Ruger's own MKII, then I exclude myself from the 'problem' you claimed. (Yes I've owned those guns)

Still it (P95) is a crappy gun. :) Notice how Ruger owners boast about how Ruger is strong, durable, overbuilt/over engineered blah blah blah but shy away when talking about accuracy.

I even posted on P97 vs G21 accuracy in ruger forum. You know what I got? No reply. Nobody touched that subject. I'd take on any ruger guys with their P95 and P97 with my G21 and G17. Looks like I'm not the only one. guy on the range next to me with his P89, the other with his P94. I made them embarassed with my G17/G22/G21. (I told them, you get a Glock after this, alright? ;f)

as glockophile said, low-end, low-quality, cheap guns. nothing wrong with that, some people can't justify $1000 guns, that's Okay. It's just not my thing.;f

of course Colt NRM 1911 looks better than any Ruger pistol line up :)

[G36's Rule]

I've owned P90, P94, P95, Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, Redhawk, Super RedHawk, GP100, SP101 and MkII in various barrel lengths. Plus I own a Mini14.

Except for the Mini, these firearms are all exceptionally accurate/reliable for the caliber/pistol type. The Rugers are low cost, high quality, high value firearms.

As I said, I've owned a P95. A very accurate, reliable firearm that was probably one of the better values out there when it was introduced.

Unless the "black" you refer to was less than .5" hitting it at 7 yards would be no problem with a P95.

[gudel]

Unless the "black" you refer to was less than .5" hitting it at 7 yards would be no problem with a P95.

not 0.5" from 7yard, how about Compact Disc size from 7 yard. I don't expect it to be 1911 accurate, of course it's not, even the price tells you that ;f

but just to be able to hit a CD from 7 yard would be NICE. if i can't hit it with the P95 but I can with others, then I'm gonna have a fit because it's not such a great value to me.

but then again you're a ruger guy. :) if ruger works for you, that's great man, keep at it. P series are just not for me.

[G36's Rule]

As an example:

The first CHL course I took back in '97 was shot with a Ruger P95 fairly newly purchased. I shot a 250 out of 250. The course consisted of 20 shots at 3 yards, 20 shots a 7 yards and 10 shots at 15 yards. First shot out of each string was DA. All timed.

My entire 50 shot group was measured at 3.5" by the range officer.

Has it ever occurred to you that you had a bad pistol? Maybe a exception to the rule?

[SamColtFan]

Hmmmm, Rugers are inaccurate? Went out varmint exterminating this past week with my friend's Ruger model 77 in .223. The prairie dogs were not too happy when hit at 300 yards.

Regards,
Sam

[WalterGA]

Originally posted by care-less
I really am beside myself every time this subject is raised. Ruger pistols, revolvers, rifles, and shotguns are all cast; don't hear of too many people bad mouthing Ruger; mostly just praise about how tough they are. Browning/FN had to go to a cast frame on the 40 Hi-Power because the "forged" frames would not hold up!!! Imagine that! Now they use cast frames on all of the HP's. When you forge a part; the steel cannot be so tough or hard since you would wear out all your tooling machining it! With a cast part; you can use a tougher/harder steel since very little machining is required. Ruger casts for Caspian and many others. If properly done with quality steel; it will outlast anything that has ever been forged. Properly done is the key; no air voids, etc. Cheap cast parts are either done improperly, or use junk steel, and cannot match a forged part. All of that said, I still prefer forged myself; but only because I am old and fashioned; not because it is superior to cast. For guns that are going to be routinely shot with +P+ loads, etc; I prefer a cast frame. They will hold up better.

Hmmmm. Sounds authoritative, all right, but also sounds like just so much horseschict to me! How about backing up your metallurgical "expertise" with some authoritative documentation?

Let me clarify: I think you're f.o.s.!

[RonC]

I don't know who Wild Bill Caldwell is, but he sure sounds authoritative to me. He is extremely well regarded over at pistolsmith.com...

"In certain cases forging steel can be good. Can make steel better for certain aplications. In some cases it can be no help at all, and can cause total disaster if not done properly. I'll try to limit this post to guns, particularly 1911 frames. Not knives, not damascus steel, not plows. Just forging and how it applies to 1911 frames, as in "forging versus cast".

The so called forged frames should be called drop forged frames. Proper forging technique calls for heating the steel to a certain temperature, then hammering in a proper sequence and with varying strength hammer blows, until the steel cools to a temperature where hammering should be stopped. Then the steel is reheated and hammered again. This is repeated until desired shape and dimensions are reached. A skilled blacksmith can refine the grain structure and grain direction. No frames are forged this way. Frame forging is done by heating a chunk of steel, placing it in a die, a matching die is slammed into this, and this is the 1911 forged frame. A quick way to get the general shape of the frame. This doesn't do anything to help the steel, and unless stress relieved and annealed, the frame is loaded with stress. It will certainly move during machining and heat treating. If the steel was not at the proper temperature when the hammer falls, lots can happen. All bad. Too hot: giant and very weak and brittle grain structure. To cold: inclusions, cold shuts. Not a good foundation to build on.

Forging, I've done. Casting? None. But as I understand the procedure, a mold is made in the shape of the frame, hot steel is poured in, centrifugally spun, cooled and the mold is broken away. This must be faster than machining from barstock. But I've never done it so I can't say for sure. Many say castings aren't as strong as forgings. Again all I can say is, if it's properly forged, yes. But drop forged? I'll take a good casting over drop forged any day. As I understand it, all Ruger frames (Blackhawks, Redhawks) are cast. They have some powerful cartridges and I've never heard of one failing. We use cast Caspian frames, and some of our wildcats we've experimented with (but won't sell) are very hot. No frame failures. So the next time you hear "my frame is better because it's forged" Ask to see his blacksmith shop (forge, anvil,hammers) and see if the singer don't change his tune to "it's drop forged" (if he even knows the difference).

Thanks
Bill Caldwell
Wild Bill Caldwell Tactical Weaponry "

[rsilvers]

Interesting.

So one should not assume drop-forged is better unless you know it was stress releaved and then harneded and then machined as the final step -- even though this eats tooling. I think Les Baer does it this way.

But drop forging, if done the best way, should be more dense, no?

As far as slide-stops -- Wilson's Bulletproof is machines from barstock. Ed Brown's Hardcore is cast. I had them both side by side. The Ed Brown had very mild casting marks on the back which I will stone off, but the Wilson was not as smooth on the shaft. So I am going with the Ed Brown (which I find surprising because I wanted to avoid cast, but it looked nice and was real hard).

[auto45]

Cast frames work fine. I expect cast slides are fine also for most shooters.

Even plastic frames work so I can't imagine how a cast metal frame would be a problem.

But, cast doesn't finish as well as forged and I doubt they are better, so why bother when the majority of 1911's made are forged?

IMHO, price would be the only reason to buy cast. Unless you want something different like Caspian offers with their double stack, single stack with a large mag well, etc, etc.

Did you ever see a gun bbl made out of castings? :cool:

[RonC]

I believe cannon barrels are cast.

[rsilvers]

Actually I was told that there were some highly sought after barrels that were cast.