Done a lot of thinking re: Ammo

[CougarRed]

I am fairly new to handguns. When I first got into it, I stumbled across the stopping power stats put out by Sanow and Marshall. I was intrigued. You have to admit, their percentages were pretty cool. And there was an inherit appeal to the notion that the more foot-pounds of energy a round had, the more deadly it was.

I then stumbled across Mas Ayoob's recommendations for various calibres at:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_48/ai_82551648

His recommendations almost paralleled the Marshall/Sanow tables, so that was confirmation for me. In addition, I saw some brochure put out by Federal that listed muzzle velocity and foot-pounds of energy for its various rounds.

So, I was off on a speed quest. Bought some Magsafe, some +p+ 9mm, and some Corbon 135 gr 40 S&W. Even bought a 357 barrel for my Sig P226-40 so I could shoot bullets faster.

I was oblivious to the whole debate between Fackler and Sanow/Marshall/Ayoob. Sure, I visited AmmoLab, and I understood there was an FBI protocol regarding penetration, but I still labored under the impression that more foot-pounds meant more injury and greater chance of death.

I have now read and digested the material at the Firearms Tactical Institute where much of the writings of the Fackler school are collected.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

I have come to the conclusion I was focused on the wrong place - the end of the barrel (ie velocity). Instead, I realize now that the right place to focus is on how the bullet reacts with the target.

To that end, the FBI and Fackler make sense when they talk about:

1) penetrating far enough to damage vital organs.

2) permanent cavity is a crush injury path whereas temporary
cavity is virtually meaningless

3) size of permanent injury cavity depends on depth of penetration and size of expansion (and shot placement)

While it may be counterintuitive, the fact is that lighter, faster hollowpoints penetrate less than slower, heavier ones, and therefore have less chance to injure vitals.

I have now studied the terminal ballistic effects of the 147 9mm JHP now. A standard 147 will usually penetrate farther than the +p+ 115 and 124 gram rounds, even when the 147 expands properly.

Likewise, the 180 40S&W tend to penetrate more reliably than the 135 and 155 gr.

Toss in the fact that the standard pressure rounds are more fun to shoot (less recoil) than their souped up little brothers, and count me a convert to the Fackler/FBI school.

Jerry Kirkpatrick, where are my Ranger T 147 and 180s please!

[Michigun]

All of that can give you a headache, but is still pretty fun doing your own research in the end & coming to your own conclusion.

Can you now see why +p & +p+ mid-weight 9mm ammo is so popular? ;)

[Dandapani]

I'm convinced by data and my own tests that out of the short barreled PM9, 147 grain premium JHP works the best. Penetration and expansion! There's another thread on the Niner Club regarding old tests with the 147 and why Ayoob preaches from the book of Corbon. Seems he has an interest in the company...

[jdege]

I spent a great deal of time, pontificating over these numbers, when I started.

I've since come to the conclusion that reliability is the most critical aspect, particularly with HPs.

If it doesn't shoot, it doesn't matter how well it would have done if it had.

[SRN]

CougarRed,

You're where I was about five years ago. After more study and reading, plus a little experimentation on my part, here is where I am now.

(1) The really critical item in choosing a defensive load is that it and your firearm function together in an absolutely reliable manner. At least 200 rounds of your defensive ammo through an autoloader without a failure. Since a revolver has less complicated ammo handling, you can get away with less testing - I think 60 rounds is a good number. This testing has implications if you want to shoot really expensive defensive ammo.

(2) Shot placement is next most important. Know what to shoot for and why. From the draw be able to put 2 shots into a 4 inch diameter circle at 20 feet in 2 seconds with your defensive load. (You may choose some other standard to meet, but this is mine.) You must practice and control recoil to attain this level. If you have to use less macho ammo to hit the target and get quick follow-ups, then the tradeoff is worth it to me.

(3) After you're sure the bullet will leave your gun and hit your target, now you can worry about what it will do when it gets there. There are things I like and dislike about both Marshall's and Fackler's points of view:

- I like Marshall's decision to use real world data. I don't like his selection criteria (one shot stop after a torso hit), nor his refusal to let others see his raw data (he says he promised confidentiality to get much of it).

- I like Fackler's experimental approach, the use of his experience as a surgeon, and the reproducibility and openess of his data. Much of what he says makes alot of sense. However, there may be many factors that influence stopping power that can be missed in an approach that says "x, y, and z are important and I'll test for these and the best in my test will be the best on the street." Also, I don't like the personal attacks made on Marshall and Sanow by Fackler and his followers.

Taking everything into account, I've chosen to use 124 grain Gold Dots +P in my MK9. The availability of the reclassified ammo at low prices allows me to practice on a regular basis. The +P load I use to get the most velocity out of the short MK9. Both Marshall and Fackler agree that this loading should be a reasonably good stopper.

No handgun round is going to be a bolt of lightning. Shoot till the attack is stopped. Continue your research and keep an open mind.

regards,
Steve

[LittleFoot]

Steve (or SRN)-

it is very refreshing to read the remarks of a member who possesses rational thought and the intellect to be able to see both sides (pros and cons) of an issue; and further, to explain how or why they arrived at an educated decision for their own self-defense, rather than declaring their choice as all-wise and belittling others' choices....thank you

i guess it is no coincidence to find such remarks within the confines of the Kahr Club

[CougarRed]

Steve -

I am not much on personal attacks by either side. Nor am I impressed by the financial stake Marshall, Sanow and Ayoob seem to have in the debate.

I think that Fackler has it right that consistent 12-16" penetration is optimal, and reliable expansion a bonus. The FBI seems to agree. Good enough for me.

PBB

[oldfella]

I finally got to the range yesterday, still in process of selecting a defense round for my MK9 Elite 2003 after completing the "break-in" requirement. I finished what I had left of the Cor-Bon 125gr +P and shot some of my new 115gr +P, I also shot some of the Golden Saber 124gr +P.... no problems at all!

Unlike some of the experts here, and there, I am not...I can only go by what other have to say, and mostly about where my rounds hit and how it feels to shot in terms of recoil. So far the jury is still out. Next I will try the new Cor-Bon 100gr Pow-R-Ball, and the Speer Gold Dot 124gr, which I understand is a preferred round by the LEOs. I am going to select after I try these... too darn expensive to continue to try different ammo.