PM9 or P9-Covert for pocket carry...?

[at-home-daddy]

I've been going back and forth for some time about the Kel-Tec 3AT...or the Kahr PM9...or the Kahr P9 Covert (w/ the slide about 3/4" longer) -- for pocket carry. I'd like to go the Kahr route over Kel-Tec if pocket carry is possible (for quality and caliber reasons), but I wonder if a PM9 truly is a POCKET carry gun, or if that's stretching the meaning of "pocket" a bit. I know many do it, and at 6'1" I should be able to handle it, and assume I'll be able to do so. However, questions that occure as I get closer to a decision:

1). Is the PM9 a *comfortable* pocket gun, a true pocket gun in the strictest sense of the word? I realize the difference in width and size between it and a Kel-Tec is minimal...but is is just enough to make it uncomfortable for my purposes, wherein I throw on a pair of regular-fitting (not too loose, not too tight) jeans for just about everyday & all-day wear?

2). If the PM9 is acceptable, is the P9 Cover acceptable as well...or is that extra 3/4" length just enough to prohibit it from comfortable/secure/hidden jean-pocket carry?

Thanks -- and sorry to make my first post a plea for help...

[_The_Rev]

I have all three guns. the covert is not a good pocket. The pm9 is not bad, but once you have used the Kel-tec for pocket carry, you will never go back. I love the kahrs for iwb carry

[CougarRed]

The P9 Covert is 0.7" longer in the slide than the PM9, and 1 oz heavier.

I carried my P9 Covert today in the pocket of my slacks. Used an Uncle Mike's #3 pocket holster, which fits the gun perfectly.

[Short Cut]

I can only comment on the PM9. Yes it is imo a good pocket/ankle gun. Now a G26 is what I would consider stretching the definition of a pocket gun. The Kahr is flatter and not as tall or long as the Glock.

What makes the Kel-Tec attractive to me is the weight. The reason I don't own one is the caliber. For me it would be suitable as a backup gun, but not a primary. JMHO

The reason I have the PM9 is because sometimes I need something small as a primary yet I want to stay with 9mm or better for a cartridge. Again this is just a personal choice and I take the Kel-Tec over a sharp stick anyday. :)

[Michigun]

I own a PM9 & a Covert… got the PM9 1st & then the Covert down the road… I actually find that the grip on my Covert prints less in my pocket then what my PM9’s does. The Covert’s longer barrel makes the grip sit higher causing it to blend in better. YMMV of course.

The longer sight-plain on the Covert also really helps out my accuracy & speed while shooting… the little extra velocity from the longer barrel certainly doesn’t hurt either!

The recoil system in the Covert is simpler & more robust then the system found in the PM9, which I have had zero problems with by the way so it’s kind of moot… the Covert’s system is less complicated though.

Neither here nor there really, but the Covert’s design is the more proven one seeing how it’s just a P9 with a cropped grip. The P9 was Kahr’s 1st polymer pistol.

If I insert a 7-round grip-extending mag in the Covert I basically have a P9.

My main reason for wanting the Covert was for the fact that I shot it better then my PM9, which I attributed to the longer sight-plain found on the Covert… Finding that it actually concealed better in my pocket (its main carry place) was a bonus!

I still like the PM9, but the Covert option is also a good one… in my case it was the better one!

Grip length is just as important as width for a pocket carry gun. Seeing how both the PM9’s & the Covert’s grip length is the exact same, I find that the Covert’s extra slide length actually helps hide the “grip print” better. It causes the grip to ride just a hair (0.7”) higher in the pocket, which in my pocket puts the grip in an easier to hide position… it blends in better.

A pocket holster that breaks up the major outlines of the gun is a must! I actually have sold/passed up/retired more expensive pocket holsters for the inexpensive Uncle Mikes pocket holster… I just plain find that it conceals my Covert the best so far.

I must say however that I would be lying if I said I don’t purchase my jeans around my pocket Kahr. I definitely have jeans that are set to non-Kahr pocket carry. I’d rather spend at little more money & time getting the right jeans then to carry a smaller caliber.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that you probably will not find a way to pocket carry the Kahr (or Kel-Tec, or 5-shot snub, or etc…) without it looking like you have at least something in your pocket. (In other words don’t count on finding a way to conceal a pocket gun 100%.) As long as it doesn’t look like a gun you’re good to go. Heck, most wouldn’t even notice even if it did look like a gun!!!

Here’s a picture of the Covert in my front pocket: http://glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=2755356

I’d personally rather put a little more effort into pocket carrying the Kahr to have the 9mm round over the Kel-Tec in .380…

[Dandapani]

PM9 with proper pocket holster is a pocket carry piece. I'm packing as I type this. Not in jeans, tho. Khakis, dockers, etc. Or perhaps loose jeans.

[WIG19]

Originally posted by Michigun
Here’s a picture of the Covert in my front pocket: http://glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=2755356

Me: OK, that's the final straw; my dealer is scrounging me one of those right now. Right away think of the savings from the decrease in visits to the chiro, honey...!
CFO/Better-half: Well go ahead, then - it's actually kinda cute, they're prettier with that two-tone thing going. And if it'll keep you from lookin' at another guy's pants.... Why would he take a picture like that anyway?
Me: Well, he's from Michigan - I'm going shopping.
CFO/B-h: Michigan... oh.... oh.... I see.
:joker:

[Michigun]

Originally posted by WIG19
CFO/Better-half: ... Why would he take a picture like that anyway?

Me: Well, he's from Michigan - I'm going shopping.

CFO/B-h: Michigan... oh.... oh.... I see.


Watch it now! ;f

(By the way, that picture was a request in another past GT thread… figured it was fitting for this thread too… I really don’t just go around snapping pictures of my waistline all the time… no REALLY, I’m not lying...)

[at-home-daddy]

Well, while I don't go around looking at ment's waistlines, either, I was awfully glad you provided a picture of yours.;) Truly, thanks again for providing that -- I have to admit I'd nearly ruled out the Covert in favor of either the PM9 or P3AT. But your pants fit you about the same as mine, so I'm going to throw the Covert back in the running. Thanks, too, for the comments -- from you and everyone else -- about these various carry pistols. Continued comments are appreciated -- I'm going down this afternoon to fill out the CCW paperwork, so I won't be doing any serious shopping for a couple of weeks yet.

I'm rather excited to be able to carry...I made myself wait a year after taking up shooting before progressing to this point, to become more educated and practiced in pistol shooting before I allowed myself to carry. Overly cautious of me, perhaps, but it seemed like a wise idea at the time and I've been comfortable with the decision thus far. However, I gotta say I'm glad the year is just about up!

[JMag]

While, in general, I find a primary and a backup superfluous due to the fact that most civilian gun encounters do NOT involve more than two or three rounds used at best. I believe the Kahr products to be nice but not best suited for pocket carry (too bulky), at least for me. The Kel-Tecs are perfect in that role, IMHO. It is last- ditch and can assist one in a speedy exit from most encounters in most instances a non-LEO could find himself.

Before flaming away please note the aforementioned qualifiers.

[at-home-daddy]

Originally posted by JMag
While, in general, I find a primary and a backup superfluous due to the fact that most civilian gun encounters do NOT involve more than two or three rounds used at best.

I guess I should have clarified that this would be as a primary, not a BUG. Yes, I understand that the preceived wisdom is for the largest caliber and capacity that one can comfortably carry, but holster and IWB carry is just not practical for me for a variety of reasons...thus I'm left with pocket carry for my primary and the restrictions that comes with it (like pistol size and caliber). Hence my focus on the PM9, P9-Cover and Kel-Tec P3AT.

So while I'd love to carry my Sig P229 in .357Sig, unfortunately that's just not possible right now -- but maybe someday...

[LittleFoot]

at-home-daddy -

the problem with traditional 5 pocket jeans (especially if you're right-handed) is that the pocket openings are too narrow....yes you can get the pm9 in there, but you won't be getting it out easily or fast! same for the kel-tec, although to a lesser extent

with most other types of pants pockets, the pm9 is probably as easy to conceal as the kel-tec, with a lil' extra weight tugging on your beltline (it appears that Michigun is wearing jeans that have "Dockers"-style side pockets, although i didn't get a good look....no honest, i didn't)

where the kel-tec has the true CC advantage IMHO is with use of the factory belt-clip in situations where pockets are either too tight or do not exist (sweat-pants or jogging shorts....i guess some on this site might also carry in their swim trunks, but i find that extreme...i prefer a spear-gun); the disadvantage is that you can't carry a round in the chamber or risk talking like Michael Jackson for the rest of your years

my advice would be to get both

Originally posted by Michigun
The Covert’s longer barrel makes the grip sit higher causing it to blend in better.

What problems does that extra height present when you sit down?

[Rusty Phillips]

Originally posted by Michigun
Here’s a picture of the Covert in my front pocket: http://glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=2755356





yeah, sure, okay.



lol

[DeadBang]

My opinion, based on the options you've listed, is to go with the 9mm in either model Kahr if it will be your primary. Accordingly here are my thoughts on the questions you've asked:
... but I wonder if a PM9 truly is a POCKET carry gun. For me no,however, it's the closest thing to one in a 9mm auto caliber.
Is the PM9 a *comfortable* pocket gun, a true pocket gun in the strictest sense of the word? Yes and No, in an Uncle Mike's #3 Pocket holster my PM9 carries comfortably. No it is not a true pocket gun in the strictest sense of the word. (Ref. first question answered above).
If the PM9 is acceptable, is the P9 Cover acceptable as well...or is that extra 3/4" length just enough to prohibit it from comfortable/secure/hidden jean-pocket carry? If you can carry the PM9 via pocket than you should be able to carry the Covert.

My suggestion would be to wear a pair of jeans that would be your typical daily wear and go to your favorite gun store and start dropping these pistols into the pockets. If they have a UM pocket holster that you can try then use it as well.

My PM9 spends approximately 85% of it's time in a IWB holster, 10% in the pocket and the remaining 5% in off-body carry, i.e. fanny pack, etc. This is how I use mine and it could possible find more pocket time if it ever unseated my S&W 642. ;)


DeadBang

[JWM]

Originally posted by at-home-daddy
Is the PM9 a *comfortable* pocket gun, a true pocket gun in the strictest sense of the word?

I only have experience with the PM9. I carry it 100% pocket carry. Shorts, jeans, slacks, suit, whatever. I have a pocket holster I like, makes it much easier. It's in my pocket now.

About suit carry - I've found that I can carry the pistol in the left inside breast pocket of my suit blazer, no holster. Works well.

No matter the attire, spare mag goes in the left pants pocket.

Works for me...

[Michigun]

Originally posted by LittleFoot
What problems does that extra height present when you sit down?

For myself... zero.

[tenntrains]

All of you have discounted the KelTec P11 which is very near to the PM9 and is 9mm also. I carry one of these all the time in my front pocket in a pocket holster and no one has ever figured it out. I am going to buy a PM9 because I like the trigger action better. But the P11 has double stack 10 rounds +1 so it is a option no one has mentioned.

[Brian894X4]

I have a Kel-Tec P3AT and this really is a true pocket gun, that you can just toss in the pocket (in a safe pocket holster of course) and not notice it. This is really the perfect gun for having with you, when you don't think you'll need it and don't want something that will interfere with your daily activities, but I don't know that I would carry it very often as a primary. I've had a few reliability issues and .380 is no match for a 9mm or especially a .40. But still .380 in this size and weight is highly impressive.


I also have the Kahr PM40, which I use as my primary CCW. I think the PM series is perfect for concealed carry. I don't really see the point of Covert. It may not add a lot of weight, but it seems to add enough mass and for no real purpose. I'd rather have a regular P-series over a Covert.

Both of these guns are awesome. But if had to make a choice I'd go with PM Kahr over either the P3AT, if you are really concerned about having a reliable fight stopper. If you just want to feel confortable that you at least have something, then the P3AT is the lightest and easiest gun to conceal that is fairly reliable and chambered in a relatively OK caliber.

[Michigun]

Originally posted by tenntrains
All of you have discounted the KelTec P11 which is very near to the PM9 and is 9mm also.

Double stack -vs- single stack… I used to own a Kel-Tec P-11… I’ll take the PM9 or Covert thank you! ;)

Originally posted by Brian894X4
I don't really see the point of Covert. It may not add a lot of weight, but it seems to add enough mass and for no real purpose. I'd rather have a regular P-series over a Covert.

To each his own Brian894X4!

I “see the point” of each Kahr pistol myself. The P9 Covert is only 1oz heavier then the PM9 & the only place the Covert has any added mass over the PM9 is with its longer (0.7”) muzzle… all other overall dimensions are equal. I find the less complicated design, increased muzzle velocity & extra sight radius of the Covert a “real purpose”. Insert a 7-round grip-extending mag in the Covert & you basically have a regular P9 now.

[at-home-daddy]

Originally posted by Brian894X4
If you just want to feel confortable that you at least have something, then the P3AT is the lightest and easiest gun to conceal that is fairly reliable and chambered in a relatively OK caliber.
A thanks to everyone who commented and offered suggestions and feedback. Here's a quick update: after trying the P9-Covert, the PM9 and, yes, a Kel-Tec P3AT, I ended up going with the P3AT and, in fact, am picking it up this afternoon after the required wait. With the attire I normally wear, I found the Kahr simply too blocky and thick for pocket carry; the P3AT, on the other hand, felt ideal. Later on down the road, I can see the P9-Covert being a perfect IWB carry...but for now, the P3AT appears to be perfect pocket carry pistol for me.

Let's hope it functions as well as it carries...;)

[Colorado Fatboy]

If you haven't already done so already visit the following forums:

www.ktog.org

www.ktrange.com

There is some very valuable info there. Also I would recommend doing a "fluff n buff" before shooting it. All the info can be found on the links listed above.

[Gunmeister]

My $.02 worth on the subject.
Anyone who can afford a Kahr PM9 and chooses a Kel-Tec product over the Kahr really needs to re-evaluate their options.If the K-T is what you can afford then so be it.
Over the past five years or so,I have owned 2 K-T P32s and a KT P11. Of the three, the P11 was the better but was like a brick in your pocket and the stock trigger is super bad, it had to make a trip back to the factory before it was quasi reliable (your basic semi-auto jam-o-matic). Both P32s were terrible and numerous trips to the factory produced little results. Both would FTF unless ball ammo was used and both had FTE probs that never did get fixed. I gave one away and traded the other for one third of what I paid for it. From what I read on the K-T forum I have no reason to believe the P3AT is any better. Most Gunzines give the P3AT reviews from pretty good to great but consider that the writers want to get paid and free trial guns from K-T so they can't be too critical. I once read that K-Ts when brand new need so much work on them to get reliability, that they should be marketed as "Kit Guns".
Of the 17 handguns I own, four are Kahrs and each one has operated flawlessly. The mag release on my PM9 needs replacing and that's the only problem incured on any one of the four and the factory is providing the replacement parts free of charge. Mega thou rounds fired with no malfs. My Covert .40sw is my least favorite because of the long barrel and short grip it feels nose heavy. When you add a Pearce grip extention for better control, you may as well bought a K40. For some reason the Covert creases the brass when ejecting a spent round but Kahr says no problem unless of course you're a reloader, which I'm not.
Kahr's box stock trigger is superior to most other out of the box D/A only pistols, including Glocks. K-T triggers are really poor IMHO. Also, I think most would agree that 9mm is better than any .380acp.
All things considered, the PM9 is so far superior in all respects to any K-T product and if you can afford the price tag, that's the way to go. I know many will disagree, but a used Kahr is much better than a new K-T or Bersa for that matter. One must consider how much their life is worth and would a couple hundred dollars more be money well spent.

[Brian894X4]

I've owned a Kel-Tec P32, P3AT and my Kahr PM40. Of the three, the Kahr was the least reliable out of the box, followed by the P32 (both had to go back to the factory) and then the P3AT. All had numerous problems, but most were solved by the factory. Right now, I would consider my PM40 and P3AT to be equally reliable (having not yet shot the PM40 with the new spring) which means they should work about 90% of the time. When it comes to weight and size, nothing out there beats the P3AT. It's just incredible and it is a decent gun. A fluff and buff does go a very long way. They are not "carry out of the box guns" and either is the Kahr. (At least the PM series) I personally rather carry my Kahr PM40 than anything else, because it has a lot more firepower than the P3AT and is lighter and smaller than any of my Glocks.

The only 100% reliable "carry out of the box" guns I've owned are my Glocks. I absolutely never worry about whether they will fire, nor do I have to do any modifications to them. But the problem with the Glocks is as light as they are compared to other full sized duty weapons, their double stack design does not suit them well for deep conceal cover. When Glock makes a "real" single stack slim gun (not the G36 which is no slimmer than G17) then I'll be in heaven!!!

[LittleFoot]

Originally posted by Brian894X4
The only 100% reliable "carry out of the box" guns I've owned are my Glocks.

I don't know what 100% reliable "carry out of the box" amounts to (i've owned two glocks that have FTE at least once or more at the range), but I feel my p32 has been pretty good overall. If I needed a last minute purchase carry gun without time to practice, it probably wouldn't be a .32 acp anyway. But it seems to get more reliable the more I practice with it. One round I can definitely (that one's for you Michigun) advise against in this gun is the Magsafe -- WAY too hot & jam-prone for this gun.

Originally posted by Brian894X4
When Glock makes a "real" single stack slim gun (not the G36 which is no slimmer than G17) then I'll be in heaven!!!

I think we'll all be in heaven.....or at least in the grave. I think if they were going to do it, they'd a done it by now. Glock likely has set the bar too high with its reputation for dependability, and could find it nearly impossible to keep that intact with the development of a small frame gun. They have to weigh the many LEO buyers that place a premium on dependability against the risk of tarnishing that reputation. The "fluffs & buffs" and "barrel recalls" and "keyholing" that some of the other guns exhibit would not be tolerated by sheriffs and police chiefs. Not when SIG-Sauer and S&W are ready alternatives.

[Gunmeister]

I will agree, early PM 40's were problematic but Kahr has fixed that. I have a MK40 Elite that I like a lot but it's a little heavy for it's size. My PM9 is just right.
There are thousands of people out there who swear by their K-T's and just as many who swear at them. I swore at all three of mine.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck with your K-T. If it were mine I'd shoot the heck out of it, at least 500 rounds before I made it my primary weapon. If it hasn't broken by then chances are it might be reliable.
Don't give up on that PM40, if the factory fixed it it should be fine. If you shoot the 200 rounds that Kahr recommends for break in I think you'll learn to like it a lot.
I too like my Glocks very much (G33 and G26) but as you said they are just a tad big for the pocket. I must admit, all four of my Kahrs have far better triggers, stock, than any stock Glock
As has been written many times, " A concealed weapon isn't meant to be comfortable, it's meant to be comforting."

[Brian894X4]

Originally posted by LittleFoot


I think we'll all be in heaven.....or at least in the grave. I think if they were going to do it, they'd a done it by now. Glock likely has set the bar too high with its reputation for dependability, and could find it nearly impossible to keep that intact with the development of a small frame gun. They have to weigh the many LEO buyers that place a premium on dependability against the risk of tarnishing that reputation. The "fluffs & buffs" and "barrel recalls" and "keyholing" that some of the other guns exhibit would not be tolerated by sheriffs and police chiefs. Not when SIG-Sauer and S&W are ready alternatives.

Good point. I didn't really figure Glock will make super compact single stack gun. Although, I wouldn't mind a .45 GAP in Glock 27 size, or even in G23 size, and there is real hope for one of those.
Not exactly super compact, but it would fit my hands a lot better than the G36 and have just as much firepower.

[Brian894X4]

Originally posted by Gunmeister
I will agree, early PM 40's were problematic but Kahr has fixed that. I have a MK40 Elite that I like a lot but it's a little heavy for it's size. My PM9 is just right.
There are thousands of people out there who swear by their K-T's and just as many who swear at them. I swore at all three of mine.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck with your K-T. If it were mine I'd shoot the heck out of it, at least 500 rounds before I made it my primary weapon. If it hasn't broken by then chances are it might be reliable.
Don't give up on that PM40, if the factory fixed it it should be fine. If you shoot the 200 rounds that Kahr recommends for break in I think you'll learn to like it a lot.
I too like my Glocks very much (G33 and G26) but as you said they are just a tad big for the pocket. I must admit, all four of my Kahrs have far better triggers, stock, than any stock Glock
As has been written many times, " A concealed weapon isn't meant to be comfortable, it's meant to be comforting."

I have about 500+ rounds through my Kahr PM40. While it had some major teething problems, I absolutely love this gun. The trigger is the best of any DAO I've shot, including the Glock and it just feels perfect in my relatively small hands. I now carry it as my primary CCW over anything else. My Kel-Tec and Glocks pretty much just gather dust now. Even in the woods, where I would normally Carry my higher capacity Glocks and don't have to worry about concealability, I tend to take the Kahr instead, just because it's lighter and feels better to carry. It's really amazing that you can pack 6 rounds of .40 cal firepower in such a small package. So, while I did have some problems at first, I can overlook that for the many other advantages with this weapon.

If Kahr ever makes a .45 GAP model, sign me up!!!!!

[Catbird]

at-home-daddy -

Since you have already made your decision to go with the Kel-Tec P3AT, I would like to recommend this holster for times when you don't want to carry it in your pocket.

I received mine yesterday and wore it today for the first time under a T-shirt when my son and I went to the movies. My son is very "gun savvy" and he had no idea I had it on. (We saw The Village...good movie!).


http://comp-tac.com/images/centerline/tot_conceal_2.gif

Comp-Tac Centerline Holster

[LittleFoot]

catbird -- any comfort issues? does rope cut into the back of the neck? does gun grip swing back and forth on chest like cheese-grater?

also, what degree of confidence that gun stays put? what degree of difficulty of getting gun out quickly (without pulling trigger)?

also, without giving the storyline away, is the village a scary movie or a confusing plot-twister (like sixth sense)? ;!

[Catbird]

Originally posted by LittleFoot
1. catbird -- any comfort issues? does rope cut into the back of the neck? does gun grip swing back and forth on chest like cheese-grater?

2. also, what degree of confidence that gun stays put? what degree of difficulty of getting gun out quickly (without pulling trigger)?

3. also, without giving the storyline away, is the village a scary movie or a confusing plot-twister (like sixth sense)? ;!

1. No, not so far. I'm not sure that I would want to jog, play tennis, basketball, etc. with it on. For driving, browsing Wal-Mart, going to church, etc., I think it's very good.

2. I have a few Comp-Tac holsters and all of them (including this one) are made with an adjustable tension screw. I have absolutely no concern about the gun accidentally coming out of the holster. This is NOT meant to be a speed holster. It's more for deep concealment like "SmartCarry" and bellyband type holsters intended for discreet carry.

3. It is a combination, but is NOT confusing. Several twists and turns and surprises. I don't want to give anything away. Go see it. If you like this type of movie, you'll love this one.

[Michigun]

Just a few statements...

1st, my Kel-Tec P-32 has been VERY, VERY reliable... I have over 5,000 rounds through mine & have only had 3 failures with her to date. 2 of those were do to out-of-spec ammo that PMC ended up sending me 2 boxes for my trouble & the other 1 was when my hammer spring broke just before the 4,000 round mark... should have replaced all springs waaaay before that round count! ;)

2nd, you’ll NEVER see a single stack 9mm GLOCK, because it won’t score enough BATFE points.

3rd, the G36 is the thinnest GLOCK made... it has about the exact same profile of the G19/G23/G33/G30/G29 & it is thinner then the 9mm, 40 cal & 357sig GLOCKs.

[Brian894X4]

Originally posted by Michigun

3rd, the G36 is the thinnest GLOCK made... it has about the exact same profile of the G19/G23/G33/G30/G29 & it is thinner then the 9mm, 40 cal & 357sig GLOCKs.

I owned a G36 and while it may technically be the thinnest Glock made, it is so close to the same width as all the other standard Glocks that the difference is not noticable and the overall grip was still bigger than a standard Glock, due to the longer .45 round, as I recall.

[Michigun]

Originally posted by Brian894X4
I owned a G36... it is so close to the same width as all the other standard Glocks that the difference is not noticable...

I've owned 2 G36's along the way myself & can see where you’re coming from for sure. (It’s thinner, but not by a lot... enough to make a few happy however & that’s cool.) I did however find the difference a least a little noticeable though.

Originally posted by Brian894X4
... the overall grip was still bigger than a standard Glock, due to the longer .45 round...

Front to back, yes... width wise it is a hair slimmer.




I’m a big Kahr fan for sure, but have to say that I mainly CCW a G34 (my G19 is next most carried) in an OWB kydex FIST... I don’t find it a chore at all. My Kahrs (mainly my P9 Covert at that) are for filling those special niches only.

[Brian894X4]

Originally posted by Michigun
....but have to say that I mainly CCW a G34 (my G19 is next most carried) in an OWB kydex FIST... I don’t find it a chore at all. My Kahrs (mainly my P9 Covert at that) are for filling those special niches only.

Wow! A G34 is a lot of gun to try to conceal. That's impressive. My Kahr PM40 spoiled the heck out me. I don't even like to carry my G27, even though it carrys almost twice the capacity in not that much bigger of a package.

[redskyzatknight]

If it's just for pocket carry, get the PM9. I've tried pocket carry myself and though it (PM9) disappears, it does seem heavy tome. Kel Tec's feel cheap to me.

[Michigun]

Originally posted by Brian894X4
A G34 is a lot of gun to try to conceal.

No try, only do. ;)

[Chainsaw Maniac]

I heard at one time that the polymer frame Kahrs did not hold up well. Have they worked the bugs out? I have been thinking about an MK9 for pocket carry, but I may still look at the PM9.

[Michigun]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Maniac
I heard at one time that the polymer frame Kahrs did not hold up well.

You must be thinking of the Taurus Millennium (P-111, P-140, P-145) Series... ;)

Originally posted by Chainsaw Maniac
Have they worked the bugs out? I have been thinking about an MK9 for pocket carry, but I may still look at the PM9.

My 1st polymer Kahr was the PM9… it was one of the 1st PM9’s shipped & had a serial number quite a bit less then 100… thousands & thousands of rounds without ANY polymer frame issues… great gun!

[Catbird]

Chainsaw Maniac commented:
"I heard at one time that the polymer frame Kahrs did not hold up well."

Michigun commented:
"You must be thinking of the Taurus Millennium (P-111, P-140, P-145) Series..."

At one time, there was some discussion about Kahr polymer frame warpage. IIRC, some owners were noticing that the left, rear rail area seemed to develop a noticeable bow which worsened over time/shooting. Actually, my 2 plus year old P40 has some of this warpage. I just keep a close eye on it and have NOT yet consulted Kahr because it is not as bad as some others that I've read about. I may give "Dottie" a call and get an update.

[Michigun]

Originally posted by Catbird
At one time, there was some discussion about Kahr polymer frame warpage. IIRC, some owners were noticing that the left, rear rail area seemed to develop a noticeable bow which worsened over time/shooting.

Yes, that was a problem mainly with early Kahr P9's... it came up again with some early polymer .40 cal. models too. (Have not heard of it/seen it once in a PM9.)

(My reference to the Taurus was just a poke at'em... they had/have polymer frames cracking problems for sure.)

Originally posted by Catbird
Actually, my 2 plus year old P40 has some of this warpage. I just keep a close eye on it and have NOT yet consulted Kahr because it is not as bad as some others that I've read about. I may give "Dottie" a call and get an update.

Neither here nor there really...

It's no secret that I'm not a big fan of the .40 cal. round (or 357 sig for that matter) in particular... I'm especially not a .40 cal. fan when it comes to the polymer Kahr. It's just me though.

[RonRC]

Michigun,

What is it you don't like about the 40 S&W? After reading so many favorable comments about the 40, I am curious about the disadvantages.

Thanks,
Ron

[Brian894X4]

Originally posted by Michigun

Neither here nor there really...

It's no secret that I'm not a big fan of the .40 cal. round (or 357 sig for that matter) in particular... I'm especially not a .40 cal. fan when it comes to the polymer Kahr. It's just me though.

All my guns are .40. I love the round. There's a reason why it's fast becoming the most popular Law Enforcement round of choice.

There's nothing wrong with 9mm, but I spend a lot of time outdoors, and I gladly trade one or two extra rounds for a heavier bullet in case I have to defend myself from some dangerou 4 legged critters.

My PM40 is the lightest .40 I have, obviously. It does kick, but it's no where near as bad I thought it would be. My Glock .40s feel more like 9mm, but that's probably more due to the design of the guns.

The advantage of 9mm, is they are cheap, easy on the guns, easy to find and have slightly higher capacity. But I'd rather go up against a couger or bear with a .40 or .45

[Michigun]

Please keep in mind here that this is my opinion & that I haven't made it a lifelong goal to go around "slamming" the .40 S&W round... I realize that others really like the .40 cal. & this is cool/fine with me. It was not my intent to turn this thread into a 40 -vs- 9 debate!

Originally posted by RonRC
Michigun,

What is it you don't like about the 40 S&W? After reading so many favorable comments about the 40, I am curious about the disadvantages.

I find the .40 S&W design itself one that “lives on the edge”… the .40 S&W case has proven itself weaker, with all things equal, then other cartridges in the auto-loading pistol. It is more susceptible to bullet setback/over pressure.

In particular to the 9mm specifically:

The .40 S&W is only 1mm (0.039”) larger in diameter then the 9mm.

The .40 cal. & the 9mm ballistics are VERY close when comparing the top ammo performers for each… heck, the .40 cal. & the 9mm are VERY close when comparing just about everything!

Ever noticed that most of the new pistols that “hit the shelves” are chambered in 9mm & that the .40 cal. comes next, if it even comes at all? :) More guns available in 9mm & just about always-available 1st… I hate waiting for the things I want! ;)

With the .40 cal.’s increased ammo cost, increased recoil, increased wear-n-tear on a given platform & all of thee above, I don’t personally find it “worth it” overall over the 9mm in particular.

Originally posted by Brian894X4
There's a reason why it's (.40 cal.) fast becoming the most popular Law Enforcement round of choice.

Knowing what I know about the majority of law enforcement agencies I take their choices with a grain of salt. Lots of odd politics/policies & things that don’t make much sense… money also will play a role.

Originally posted by Brian894X4
There's nothing wrong with 9mm, but I spend a lot of time outdoors, and I gladly trade one or two extra rounds for a heavier bullet in case I have to defend myself from some dangerou 4 legged critters.

The advantage of 9mm… But I'd rather go up against a couger or bear with a .40 or .45

I’d choose neither myself… “lowest” I’d go would be a 10mm G20 with standard capacity mag(s), but would prefer to have a 12-gauge! Again, just IMO.



The new 9mm ain’t the old 9mm & the old 9mm is the one compared to the newer .40 cal. fairly often… that’s unfair to the newer 9mm.

[Article2]

I find the .40 S&W design itself one that “lives on the edge”… the .40 S&W case has proven itself weaker, with all things equal, then other cartridges in the auto-loading pistol.

This is off topic but with regard to Michigun's earlier post here are a couple of excerpts from an article comparing .40 S&W and .45 GAP that I found interesting:

Original article (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/petej/45gap.defend.htm)

The .40 is a high pressure caliber (35,000 psi) that probably should have better beefed up brass . . . For example, full power (20,000 – 23,000 psi) 45 GAP ammo expands the case diameter by only 0.0065 in a Glock pistol. On the other hand, full power .40 ammo over-expands the case diameter by 0.010 in a Glock pistol.

Resizing fired .40 brass is much more of a chore for reloaders than .45 GAP brass is. Even with a full resize, the .40 brass may not meet SAAMI case diameter specifications and can be a tight squeeze into the barrel chamber. On the other hand, fired .45 GAP brass can generally fit completely into the chamber even before resizing.

The .45 GAP will easily match the capabilities of the .40, and is a safer cartridge because of its reinforced brass and 34% lower working pressure than the .40S&W.

[Michigun]

Again, just for the record I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with others going with the .40 S&W (not that it would or should mean squat to anyone)… it just plain doesn’t “tickle my fancy” is all, but I know it’ll get the job done. (I wouldn’t cuss one bit if a .40 S&W gun were ever “issued” to me… I may cuss a lot if that .40 caliber gun wasn’t a G22 or G35 however! ;))

Disclaimer: None of the above will keep me from throwing out a lighthearted “.40 cal.” jab every now & then though ;f, but it should be taken how it’s meant… a lighthearted jab!)