Hey, Tazz, how's the .223XR coming? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Tamara
04-19-2000, 19:04
Just curious...

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Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

Tazz10m
04-20-2000, 07:26
Still try'n to get it together Tam... I am getting my shop set up to do reloading and i am still "entertaining" (trying to figure out) the best way to set up the load...

Currently i am entertaining the idea of using a sabot so that the stock Glock barrels can be used, and tooling costs would be basically zilch... Since we are talking pistols here and relatively short ranges, i am thinking that accuracy may not suffer all that much... Also, with this set up it may be possible to get even higher velocities with even lower chamber pressures....

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

OLDGLORY
04-20-2000, 18:06
i thought we agreed it would be in a 45super case. and call it a {22-45} SOUNDS OLD WESTERN.

TED
04-20-2000, 23:30
You know, we could kneck the .45 or 10mm down to .30 and then use off the shelf sabots to go .223. I know some people who use Ruger Revolvers in .30 Carbine with the sabots and .223 projectiles and it is "interesting".

BTW, there is a company that specializes in making sabots. I bet they could make 10mm-.223 sabots for us and then all we would have to do is load development, no gun/barrel mods.

TED

[This message has been edited by TED (edited 04-21-2000).]

Tazz10m
04-21-2000, 04:41
Ted, if you figure out what that company is, let me know and i'll call them and find out...

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

HocKaLugi
04-21-2000, 05:20
I wonder how well a sabot will hold crimp and feed in a semiauto pistol. My guess would be not too well.

poochg
04-21-2000, 07:57
Well Alrighty then, here you go Tazz!
http://www.eabco.com/sabot01.html
http://jdc.family-biz.com/index.html

While these companies may not manufacture, certainly they can point their finger for you! Also the Remington techs that worked on their sabots can probably refer to others in the industry, assuming they are still with Remington!


[This message has been edited by poochg (edited 04-21-2000).]

CastleBravo
04-21-2000, 18:46
Are you guys talking about 10mm Auto or an M68 105mm tank cannon? http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

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CastleBravo

Tazz10m
04-22-2000, 10:04
Thanks Poochg!



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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

TenMan
04-22-2000, 14:15
Hi Tazz

If there's anything I can do to help, I'd be glad to. I only live about 30 miles north of you, and I have a pretty good setup here for chronographing loads, measuring pressure rings, etc.

Miss Kay and I are taking off in the RV for about 3 weeks, going down to Navajo country. We'll be back about mid-May.

Cheers,

TenMan

Tazz10m
04-22-2000, 22:27
Cool TenMan, Thanks!

Have fun on your trip!

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

g20g20
04-24-2000, 19:53
keep up the good work and maybe soon our collective dreams will be realized. Sign me up for testing when your ready to begin the frankenstein experimentation. Should be interesting.

g20g20
05-03-2000, 18:50
hey tazz, you have to provide regular updates or we will think you are not working on it.

NJW in AZ
05-06-2000, 14:38
We hashed this exact subject out quite a while ago on one of the Glock E-mail lists when the .224 Boz first came out. I think making anything close to the .224 boz will result in a law suit and no one will touch it including reamer makers, barrel makers, smiths etc.

I think the Sabot is the only way to go to test this theroy out. It is possible to make sabots out of solid plastic. A lathe is definaltly needed and possibly a mill. I have seen it done and it wouldn't be that hard with the right stuff. If anyone wants to discuss this project, mail me at wegner@theriver.com

NJW
n gh x j

poochg
05-06-2000, 17:42
Ahem, ok, I'm willing to give em a try!

NJW in AZ, you never asked me: (what kind of hash were you guys using?)


There are three choices as I see it; (with regards to using Sabots)

1. 10mm to 224 Sabots that fits right in the 10mm case and we just shove a 224 point in, change some springs lock and load. (Tazz is has these in the development phase by now, I'm sure, Tazz is a consument reloader and wildacatter he has been all over this project from the get go....)

2. We can use the 9X25 brass, A; neck it down to 30 caliber and use the 30/224 sabots already available or B; neck it all the way down to 224! (my personal favorite)

3. We can use 7.62 by 25 or 30 mauser brass and use the sabots (30cal to 223) or neck them down to 224. I think these will cycle from the breach side, but not as perfect as #2 above. (brass has less capacity) No problem here to get a company to make us a barrel or reamer and dies.

The only one that doesnít require reamers for barrels and new dies and the like is #1. Although I believe we could get barrels, we just change the neck angle, this is an American thing... Were not going to have some English company dictate what kind of wildcat cartridges we can develop. There are plenty of American gun smiths and machinists that are not going to stand for that!

The best accuracy will come from #2 plan B where we neck it down to 224. 9 X 25 Dillion Brass is made by Starline and it is as strong as 10mm. Nobody is going to stop us from going to 10mm to 30 caliber, heck even the smiths that signed the non- compete/disclosure would build our barrels and reamers and dies on that one for us. (#2 plan A)

Were at a standstill right now, because Tazz is seting up his reloader and entertaining! Can I get another Margarita please..........

Tazz10m
05-07-2000, 10:33
The right amount of reloading hash in proper proportion is required to get a round set just right...

The really cool advantage to the sabot path is that virtually any bullet could be fired out of a stock barrel. The trick is going to be finding a sabot that is optimally designed for accuracy as well as velocity. I have not found any yet. If we cant find any, then they will have to be designed and made.

If anyone finds any .40 sabots let us know. There is one company i know of that makes sabots... i still have to talk to them.

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

HiCap
05-07-2000, 11:05
I wonder about accuracy from a 223 bullet fired from a sabot in a 10mm barrel. My concern is that the twist rate may be too slow to stabilize the bullets well.

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Big Dawg #175

Tazz10m
05-11-2000, 16:43
HiCap, very good point... it seems though that the rate of twist is just about right... we will just have to test to find out...

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

STYX
05-13-2000, 11:02
hey tazz...

i know NOTHING about reloading, but i would love to help anyway i can. ...research, phone calls... whatever. just let me know.


-John

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"Cry me a river."

10mm ring member #1863

PurchGuru
05-22-2000, 15:39
Hey Tazz ...

Just wanted to bring this back to the top before it ran-out of the 10 day cycle ...

Any new news ???

Tazz10m
05-23-2000, 10:19
"Progress" is being made... slow but sure... nothing to speak of yet though... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Tamara
05-26-2000, 22:43
Re: sabots

Are we looking for some kind of long range accuracy? If so, due to the phenomenon known as "tip-off", sabots probably aren't the way to go.

If, on the other hand, all we're seeking is screaming 25yd hole-poking velocity, then sabots would be the hot ticket for quick & dirty load development...

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Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

Rusty Phillips
05-27-2000, 04:12
1st of all - check this out http://www.leitner-wise.com/lw782sx24.html

looks like a 10mm or 45 case necked to 30 cal.

(their site was down sat. am - keep checking them)

2nd of all - instead of having a custom barrel made for your first prototype - why not get a cheap POS CZ 52 chambered in 7.62x25mm?

load it up with saboted 22's (i think theyd have to be short bullets - a 55-62 grain .224 is looong!!!)

and blast away

I think you could buy a complete CZ52 for less than the cost of one custom barrel for your Glock

you might know someone who already has one.

you might not even need the sabots & 22 bullets - according to Chuck Karwan - the 7.62x25mm already knifes thru level 3A Kevlar like it is butter - a high speed 30 cal might be just the ticket

How bout a 7.62x25mm barrel for the G20?

will a 7.62x25mm cartridge fit in a G20 magazine? COAL on the 7.62 is 1.36" - Rim dia is 0.390" COAL on the 10mm is 1.26" - Rim dia is 0.424"

my G20 mag will barely hold in an empty mauser case - the lips are tight enuf.

dont know about the length though

if it could be done - 7.62 Mauser ammo is available pretty cheaply, and with a 22 sabot would be fun to play with


[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 05-27-2000).]

poochg
05-27-2000, 07:20
Yea, I have been waiting for Leitner to release the round to no avial. If it comes out, I for one intend to neck it down to .223! The lead guy at Leitner apparantly worked on the Boz project with those gun control Brits and CD has nothing good to say about Leitner, says they have no insurance flying by the seat of their pants. My question is does Leitner believe in the RKBA, cause CD sure as hell does not!!!

Tamara, Can I have both...(smile) I would like at least decent enough off hand accuracy to pop some varmits with a 6 or 7" barrel and spring change out of my G20 at ohhh at least 75 to 100 yds. This would make such a trail Gun, a super 22 and a 10mm, the woods would be safe again....and it could all be concealed!

I see nothing wrong with having the means to even the playing field when bad guys dress in kevlar suits, its just not common and scares the government types. Thats just not my main goal, I'm a sportsman first!

I prefer the 10mm case, it has more capacity and was designed for higher working pressures. Decent 223 velocities could be acheived out of the 7.62 X 25 Tokerav. I would consider Leitners case in either caliber 30 or 223 but we dont have it yet! Barrels could be made in the 30 cal from Bar Stow.

Soooo right now......all our hopes and dreams rest on the shoulders of our leader, Tazz the industrialist/inventor/craftsmen, who is very close to cracking this thing with sabots. Soon I look forward to little boxes of 10mm to 223 plastic sabots showing up on my doorstep, in designer colors no less!

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Guns don't raise criminals, mommies do!

Rusty Phillips
05-27-2000, 10:14
that link to JD Components is pretty informative

http://jdc.family-biz.com/loadinfo/30carbine/30carbine.html

a 30 carbine w/12.2 grains of AA#9 can push a 55 grain saboted bullet to 2400+ fps out of a 9 inch barrel????

that beats the BOZ doesnt it?

of course winchester says the regular 110 grain carbine bullet does 1790 fps / 783 foot lbs out of a 10 inch barrel - so is that really all that impressive?

for comparison - 10mm - 17.5 grains AA#9 w/135 grain bullet give 1507 fps/680 ft lbs (Hndldrs Dgst 1996)

assuming you dont loose too much capacity when you neck it down you ought to be able to get at least 12 grains into your new case



[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 05-27-2000).]

poochg
05-27-2000, 11:16
Sabots or not, I'm quite sure the 223XR (whatever) is going to require faster powder then #9 also I think the limitation is the gun and beating it up to much, not the case capacity, that we have!

Now their is a gun I donít have, a 30 carbine! I sure wish the DCM would include these babies in the program. I like the idea of the gov. selling you a gun. Can they really take it away later, when the entire program is civilian marksmanship....isnít that the militia, doesnít that just trump any future cards saying what is the militia and are you one??? (rhetorical question)


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Guns don't raise criminals, mommies do!

Tazz10m
05-27-2000, 15:58
The idea of necking down the cartridge has become an idea that is almost all the way down the toilet now. The .357 Sig has become a cartridge i will NEVER own now... Reason: The .357 Sig headspaces on the rim rather than the shoulder... this is not a good because it is causing problems with the shoulder giving way and making it so that the rim no longer contacts the barrel for headspacing. This may not be so much a problem for the first time a round is put up the pipe and fired, but, if the round is taken out and put back in (especially numerous times) there is a possiblilty of KA BOOM!!!!!

So... the only way to go with a necked down cartridge is to have it headspace on the shoulder... Also, i would hate to have the BOZ people give us a bunch of crap about stealing their idea... much as i think they can all kiss my nice tight BUTT!!! Police ONLY my BUTT!!! Tell 'em to call me i will tell them to their faces!

As for the long range use of the 223XR, we will just have to see what happens through experimentation. Poochg is right about the fast burning powder... we need to use a fast burning powder to control the destabilizing effect of the barrel blast after the saboted round leaves the barrel... but, i believe that if the sabot is designed right that will be kept to a minimum and long range accuracy will be improved. Look at the saboted shotgun slug rounds, they seem to be doing pretty good in the accuracy department. Also, let's all try to remember that this is a short range, high velocity, pistol/carbine round for "sporting/plinking" "PC" type purposes... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gifhttp://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gifhttp://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif gag... choke... retch...

...Anyway... the idea is to make the most inexpensive .223 round to spit out of a G20 platform and still keep it "effective"... preferably without a barrel change...

The bad guys can wear all the body armor they want... i aim for the head anyway... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

Also, as for the length of the 55 grn .223, a 200 grain pill is already shoved in the case about .375 so, that gives us a bit of room to work with seeing the fact that we are working with a much lighter bullet and can potentially shape the sabot in such a way as to maximize the powder capacity and still contain the .223 bullet.

Bottom line, we are going to have to play... ooops, i mean experiment with it a bit before we find the right combination. The key is going to be the sabot design though.

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

poochg
05-27-2000, 17:09
Tazz, headspacing aside, bullet set back can occur with straight wall cases just as easily as bottlenecks!

If I am lucky enough to get a 10mm case necked down to 223, I plan on roll crimping in the cannelure as I do in my AR. (no bullet set back their)

IMHO, a headspace on the shoulder is better, irrespective of this, I would love to shoot 223 points out of my G20 without a barrel change, so you go Tazz, you make those sabots happen.

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Guns don't raise criminals, mommies do!

Merovign
05-27-2000, 17:34
For those who are just after velocity, have a look at:
http://www.rbcd.net/

They claim a 77gr 10mm at 2400 fps. I'll be talking to them tuesday for more information and to place an order. I'll get back to y'all if I find anything special.

Tazz10m
05-27-2000, 18:58
Poochg, bullet setback is also a SERIOUS consern with the .357 Sig and the .400 Corbon, and, even some factory ammo has been having problems with this issue. Checking ALL your ammo of these calibers to make sure the bullets are tight and proper is IMHO imperative.

But... this is not what i am refering to with the issue of the headspacing on the rim. What i am talking about is the shoulder "giving out" and "pushing in" shortening the OAL of the case... preventing the rim from headspacing properly.

I agree, headspacing on the shoulder is much better. I dont know why these cartridges werent designed to headspace on the shoulder.

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Fredalso
05-27-2000, 19:44
Tazz-
The .357Sig will headspace on either the case mouth or the shoulder - whichever first stops its forward motion. So there should be no problem roll crimping the [cannelured] bullet and relying on the shoulder for headspace. Just set up the die to avoid setting the shoulder back too far - which you'd want to do anyway.

"""""""""""""

Setback is less a problem with straightwalled cases. Any setback must force the bullet to engage more of the case, which is probably a hair smaller than the bullet. This is not so with necked cartridges.

I like the idea of a sabot for another reason - high velocity without high pressure. With the sabot, the projectile has full 10mm diameter, but weighs only about 60gr. So moderate pressure, acting on the full diameter, makes enough force to really accellerate that light projectile. If you go to max case pressure, so much the faster.

[This message has been edited by Fredalso (edited 05-28-2000).]

poochg
06-08-2000, 17:25
Good point Fredalso!

Speaking of setback, how much are these sabots going to set us back, Tazz?

I found this thread trying to sneak away, so I rescued it from the 10mm trash heap!

Or are we all done here?

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MMM=Million Mislead Moms
Guns don't raise criminals, mommies do!

Tazz10m
06-09-2000, 14:55
I dont know, try sticking a fork in it... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

Poochg, just now responding... where ya been?

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

poochg
06-09-2000, 16:31
Tazz, I've been sitting here by my reloading bench this hole time! I got 500 new 10mm cases all primed up and I'm ready to break into one of my ammo cans from IMI filled with 223 55grn tips, got my powder dry, got my 10mm dies all set up in the press, I just need some 10mm/223 sabots. Whatís the word, are you gonna be able to make it happen?

Like to start off with say 2,000. Man I am getting tempted to buy a Taurus raging hornet while I'm sitting here waiting, but then I would have to carry two hog legs into the back country.

Those damn Limeys are reading our posts, Civil Defense, has got a lock on this deal. I've exchanged emails with them, they said they have read the posts. There laughing at us they say there is no way, your gonna pull this off! They are laughing at Lietner too, they say Lietner is operating on a shoestring with no insurance and they wont make it either. Your reputation is on the line here Tazz, in fact you represent the American Gun industry now, these englishmen who have given up their rights to personal firearms say they have exclusive rights to this deal, they say this 223XR is never to be.

Just think how it will feel when your being interviewed by Guns & Ammo about the new cartridge you designed, think of all the free publicity Agrip will get.....forget the Kayaks and seals man, it will be yachts, beluga caviar and the south seas for you!

While Ted Nugent is blasting warthogs, you will be popping gazelles and dingos at 200 yards off hand with your 223XR!

By the way, have you made any progress?


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MMM=Million Mislead Moms
Guns don't raise criminals, mommies do!

Kaliburz
06-10-2000, 20:25
Hummmmmmm......

Well, just an FYI...but you all probably knew of this site any how.
www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/runammo.html (http://www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/runammo.html)

It's a java program that list the case specs of rounds, one being the Boz...... and others.

poochg
06-10-2000, 20:49
No I didn't, thank you, thats a quick usefull site. Are you interested in the boz, do you shoot 10mm?

Tazz10m
06-11-2000, 13:49
Great post Poochg! Hahahahaha!! Toooo funny!! http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gifhttp://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gifhttp://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

The bloody Limies have nothin on us Americans! We even speak English better than they do! HA! So there!

As for the 223XR, XR stands for "10Ring" as in "THE 10RING" as in the worlds most exlusive club, as in US.

We here in The 10Ring have designed this exceptional cartridge as a group, which means that IT CANT BE PATENTED! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! BUT IT HAS OUR NAME, and it is ALL over the internet, a matter of record, made public for all to see... complete with dates, spec's, everything... The 10Ring gets credit for this one, and that is something no one can ever take away from us. The Boz boys tried to keep the Boz for LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY!! Welllllllllllllllll.... i guess they can just KISS OUR NICE TIGHT BUTTS on THAT one!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

The 223XR is just a silly little sabot away. I am planning on getting with my CAD/CAM guy any day now, but just have been too busy lately. I was hoping there was already a well designed sabot out there so that we didnt have to redesign the wheel on this one, especially since it's so simple. Looks like we will have to have some sabots specially made... oh well, no biggie... just takes a little time, money, and know-how... The sabot is already designed.

http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Kaliburz
06-25-2000, 20:37
Poochg,

The truth, I don't shoot a 10mm, yet http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif. I shoot 40 *&*, 45ACP, 38 Super, 357 Sig, 223 Rem, 30-06, 30-30, 38 Special, 22 WMR & 22LR. And yes, I'm interested in the Boz...or something with it's ballistics or exceeds it's ballistics.

And to all,

I wanted to to some cross posting here. Below is a link to AR15.com where a nice talk on the Boz started. Just an FYI. I'll put a post there to this one topic. Sorry I haven't replied ...it's been a while since I've been online....or rememberd to check to see any new posts here.....How about this idea....40 Super case necked to .223"..if it hasn't been discussed already....
http://forums.ar15.com/Forum5/HTML/001996.html

Enjoy.

Kaliburz
on:
AK-47.net
AR15.com
Glocktalk.com

Rusty Phillips
06-26-2000, 18:49
ignoring sabots for the sake of discussion.....

that comment on ar15.com "about a short 22BR being usefull for converting 45acp pistols to a "BOZ" style round" got me thinking

would it be better to start out with a pistol case & neck it down, or start with a necked down rifle cartridge & shorten it?

the 7.62x39 (russian) rim is not very much larger than the 10mm

the 22PPC is a shortened knecked down 7.62x39

the 22 Waldog is a shorter (1.375") 22PPC run through a shortened 22/250 die.

How bout an even shorter verion of the 22 Waldog for use in the G20?

perhaps form it in an 22/250 improved die (the Shannon version shoulder is .443" dia & 35degree)....

cut it off with as short a neck as is possible....

if needed lathe off part of the rim (it is 0.020 larger than a 10mm rim) or open up the breechface slightly

there you go - a "22Waldog-250Improved-Short"

I think .223XR is a little more catchy though.

anyone up for a .172" version?

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want to advertise on Glocktalk? click here http://glocktalk.com/adspots.shtml

http://www.collinsarms.com/GlkAnim1.gif

[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 06-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 06-26-2000).]

poochg
06-26-2000, 21:19
Rusty,

Apparently the 10mm case is able to hold the pressure more then the Glock 20 that was used in the Boz test.....I am told..that it was beat up by the Boz and then knecked down 10mm case held up just fine....so whats the point of the rifle cartridge, its really not needed is it? The thicker base would only serve to limit powder capacity, all lengths being equal to 10mm, which might limit some powder choices.....

What would gain in the Boz to use a rifle case? We already have the 9 X 25 case that is part way down to a 223 already, no more hassle with it and its not that far down from 9mm to 30 caliber for the Sabots....(When Mr. Tazz ever starts shipping them)

So Tazz.....wazzznew with the sabots?

Kaliburz
06-29-2000, 08:47
poochg,

It's just a starting point I would say. If you saw the last post there by "benchjewler" on 6/28, all he needs is to have Kurt cut 22BR dies and have a barrel made and start resizing 22BR brass ----> 22BRS.
As Rusty said, they're working on one for a 45. The 308 case, which was the parent of the 22BR, is the parent of the 22 BRS (Bench Rest Short)as it's being called.
I'm not an expert on this stuff. But the only way to find out how much case capacity it'll have is for someone to make the brass and do that "water test" as I think I heard to find out the volume.
The case is strong, and for experimenting, you want that, at least that's what I would want personally. Later, if this round catches on, and testing shows that the case pressues are lower/significatly lower then what the parent case can handle, the case can be redesigned, increasing volume. At that point, someone could ask Starline or another brass maker to mass produce it. But in the testing phase....... This stuff takes time and $$$$$$.
It took time to for us to find out the world was round, and it took time for us to get to the moon, one small step at a time. It'll take time to get the 22BRS tested. (The Boz went through a lot of testing....those damn Brits spent lots of pounds on it I bet.)

Here's a dumb thought....I think it's dumb, but..... Any one think of making a Boz case duplicate, except for the caliber? Make it into a .17 caliber (.172"). A little small....

Kaliburz

Tazz10m
06-29-2000, 21:24
Still trying to find the right company to make the sabots, and i am also still fine tuning the sabot design before i call them. If i do it right i believe we can actually get some fairly decent accuracy out of it.

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Tamara
06-30-2000, 13:47
Chatting with Lendringser today he brought up some good, if somewhat killjoy, points. Will a saboted round have enough spin to stabilize out of a pistol? For defense use, you gotta worry about the discarded sabot bits. They'll definitely put an eye out inside 7 yards. Just some points that may or may not have already been considered...

------------------
Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

Tazz10m
06-30-2000, 19:36
The spin looks to be about perfect, but we will of course have to test it, and the sabot is designed to hold together and "parachute" away allowing the bullet to continue forward without effecting flight. I'm not sure it would be ideal as a hostage rescue round, and as for using it as a general purpose personal defense round, i would rather have a heavier bigger mushrooming round...

Now on the other hand as a "Special Purpose" round for special vermin and other "recreational" uses, i think it has LOTS of potential... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

One more REALLY cool thing... you could also alternate rounds with this little set up.... oooooooooo.... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Kaliburz
07-10-2000, 21:57
Tazz,

When they're ready, I'd like to purchase some. May not have a 10mm, yet, but I guess I can experiment in my......40

Kaliburz

Shred
07-12-2000, 14:17
There's no way a real US patent on the .224 BOZ cartridge is going to stand up (CD probably cheaped out and filed for a Design patent, which covers the _exact_ design, but change an angle or two and you're scot-free). That would be good enough for them-- with that patent they can control BOZ ammo and barrel manufacturers. Good for us too, we can do what we want.

-Shred (played with a .224 BOZ once)

Kaliburz
07-17-2000, 11:47
Shred,

Intersting.....very interesting. Gonna have to do more research.

You played with one!!! Lucky Dog. How much "playing"....got to shoot it or just look at it? Come on, let us know.....

Kaliburz

poochg
07-17-2000, 17:38
double tap but I held off on the mozenbeek!

[This message has been edited by poochg (edited 07-17-2000).]

poochg
07-17-2000, 17:39
Originally posted by Shred:
There's no way a real US patent on the .224 BOZ cartridge is going to stand up (CD probably cheaped out and filed for a Design patent, which covers the _exact_ design, but change an angle or two and you're scot-free). That would be good enough for them-- with that patent they can control BOZ ammo and barrel manufacturers. Good for us too, we can do what we want.

-Shred (played with a .224 BOZ once)

First of all I'm jealous.....Now I want to know every little detail.......

Well, tell us man......was it the out of the 1911, the Glock the mp5, did you just play with the ammo, like juggling it, what kind of play, where were you, can I go there? (you know stuff like that man) If the Glock, how was it modified?

Shred
07-24-2000, 17:17
Well, all I got to do was fiddle with the pistol (a modified 6" STI Hunter-- rebarreled and had the funky Briley front-end), and some of the brass/loaded rounds. At that time there were only about a dozen or so loaded rounds in the country, so I didn't get to shoot any http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/frown.gif. Customs had decided that the reloading dies were some sort of barrel and weren't letting them in.

I did talk to somebody that had shot it and he said recoil was pretty light (a .22 cal bull-barrel will do that)

The round looks even wierder and stubbier in person.

- Shred

Shred
07-24-2000, 17:20
Well, all I got to do was fiddle with the pistol (a modified 6" STI Hunter-- rebarreled and had the funky Briley front-end), and some of the brass/loaded rounds. At that time there were only about a dozen or so loaded rounds in the country, so I didn't get to shoot any http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/frown.gif. Customs had decided that the reloading dies were some sort of barrel and weren't letting them in.

I did talk to somebody that had shot it and he said recoil was pretty light (a .22 cal bull-barrel will do that)

The round looks even wierder and stubbier in person.

- Shred

poochg
07-27-2000, 12:00
Tazzzzzz,

Give us an update.......

Tazz10m
07-28-2000, 18:07
Still looking into who is going to make the sabot. I got it designed, now i just got to get it made...

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

poochg
07-28-2000, 20:30
Well, what is required of the producer, what qualifications are needed to produce this item, injection molding, ???? poured molding? what kind of company should be looking for, we have many a hightec company in Southern Calif and we have a lot of resourses here on GT!!! Let us know, we want to help.......

Tazz10m
07-29-2000, 11:55
Ultra precision, for one. If the sabot is going to "peel" away from the spinning bullet/sabot combo without touching the bullet and effecting it as it peels away the sabot is going to have to be absolutely precise and balanced all the way around. At those speeds, the slightest little difference in the thickness or shape of the plastic could cause the sabot to "bump" the bullet as it peels away.

Are there any CAD/CAM freaks among us?

Also, sooner or later the issue of money is going to come up when it comes to the actual mold making and molding of the sabot. Cost of plastic will be next to nothing, but the making of the mold and time on the molding equipment is going to have to cost something... i dont know how much of that we can get "donated" or traded for whatever. I would like to see this whole project done as a 10Ring group thing, non-profit, with the proceeds going to a worthy cause. Everyone involved could get credit for it, with marketing exposure for the companies that help. I think it would also bring alot more people into the world of versatile 10mm... and all the good stuff that goes with that! http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

HocKaLugi
07-29-2000, 18:13
I'll help. But I want my name to be on the case headstamp.

Q-Ball
07-30-2000, 05:37
Hey Tazz.
If you ever decide to get away from the sabot idea let me know. I have a buddy who is quite the machinist, he could easily cut a chamber reamer to your specifications. I know thats only one link in the chain, but it is one step closer.
Later
Q


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We are the people our parents warned us about.

Tazz10m
07-30-2000, 19:06
Hock, would that be ".223 Hock"? Nice to dream, huh?

Q-Ball, your offer is SO tantalizing! But, developing a necked down cartridge could be looked at as being a copy-cat... and might even bring patent infringement litigation swarming right out of the wood work... so, i think it might just be better to stick with the sabot... hey... can your buddy make sizing dies for the brass? http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Rusty Phillips
07-31-2000, 12:57
any chance on getting a 10mm to .25 caliber sabot as well? (didnt think so)

any other thoughts on the 25 instead of .224?

Im concerned that most available .224 (rifle) bullets are too long (longer than similar wts. in 25 cal)....

seems that the 25 acp 50 grain fmj bullet would be cheap, have helacious penetration at the velocities attainable, and allow more powder (cause it is shorter) than a .224 bullet of the same weight.

does anyone make a round nose FMJ .224 (for the 218 bee or the hornet or ????) I guess it would be a 40 grainer for the 218 bee..... what kind of cost are they per hundred?

sorry for rambling, just curious.

Fredalso
07-31-2000, 14:34
Good point ( http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif) Rusty -
A .224 55gr FMJBT is around 0.740" long, and would need some plastic behind it, while a 180gr JHP is just about 0.640". But 25ACP bullets may be constructed lightly. (I don't have ANY to check.)

And the 40gr .224 bullets I've found are all designed for expansion, so that's a tradeoff as well.

And as you imply, the bullet nose shape, and the sabot shape, must play together well in order to get good feed reliability.

Also, rifling twist was mentioned before. I wonder if the sabots will take the Glock rifling well, with the accelleration they'll get. If so, then the 9.8" twist is fine. But many aftermarket barrels use 16" twist.

Details, details, details.
Lots of room for experimentation, unfortunately.

poochg
07-31-2000, 17:48
Rusty, with regards to rifling, I intend to use an aftermaket 6 or 7 inch barrel with conventional rifeling. The 1 in 9 twist works well in the AR's so it should be fine.

I agree that 25's would be better in some respects the reasons mentioned, but I want it in 223, the bullet selection is better and trajectory is flater in 223 and I can think of a few other reasons too! But purley as a wildcat, I think 25 would be a better choice. No patent infringements on a real 10 x 25.......heheehe.

My personal opinion is if we are to use sabots, we should be able to get a sabot maker to pony up for a 9mm to 223 sabot. That would sell to a broader market of 9 mm based guns. We could use the dillion 10 X 25 and buy stock barells and dies already on the market!!! Have you considered this taz? I know it would take a barrel change for 10mm but i think start up costs could be pushed on to a sabot maker, like one of the two that I refered to you eariler?

Tazz10m
08-01-2000, 16:01
Yep, i've considered all this stuff... and i think that the .25 is a good idea too... it is also possible that the same sabot that is used for the .223 can be used for the .25, and there are alot of different .25 bullets out there both for rifle and pistol. If we can get one sabot to work for a range of bullet sizes we could really keep costs down. As for what a particular bullet will do, look at how each bullet considered performs at whatever the projected velocity will be. For instance, a .223 Rem starting 3240fps at the muzzle is going about 1610fps at 400yds, so, look to see how that bullet performs on prairie rats (for instance) at 400yds to get an idea how the same bullet will perform at around 25-50 yds in .223XR form. Estimated velocity for a 55grainer .223XR is about 1800-2100fps at the muzzle. It might go faster, but it is really hard to tell not knowing what is going to happen with pressures and powder volume limitations. What would really be cool is to use teflon sabots... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gifhttp://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gifhttp://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif but that would for sure raise up the price a bit, but i dont know how much... Teflon is really expensive compared to other plastics, but... a sabot doesnt use much plastic/Teflon... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif Also, the sabots could/should be silicon coated... Also, variations in sabot design is not that big a deal after the first design is done, as most of the work is already done.

Just remember, no experiment is a failure...

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Tamara
08-03-2000, 20:53
Have we been over the bullet setback thing and I just slept through it? I can't find my notes... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/embarass.gif

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Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

Fredalso
08-04-2000, 02:18
Good question, Tamara. (And good to see you here again.)

One of the nice things about a straight-walled case is a natural resistance to setback. But I don't believe we've talked about the [plastic] sabot's weaker strength, where less friction will result. Perhaps a case cannelure just behind the sabot base (ala Federal 9mm and others) would help reduce setback.

If the design migrated to a necked case, such as based on the 9x25D, then the sabot could have one or more crimp grooves built in. Since headspace is on the shoulder, a small roll crimp should work.

Interesting thing about using a 9x25D - there would be more powder space when using long bullets. But I do wonder if the plastic would stand up to the powder flame on all sides.

poochg
08-04-2000, 18:49
Fred/Tamara,

If a 30 cal to .223 sabot can handle the heat, the 10mm to .223 should be ok, provide they are made of similar material!

I think a canelured sabot would be the way to go, because we can't have any bullet set back, no, no, no! (its easy to put in the mold and you dont have to use the canelure)

The small point of these rounds should help prevent them from nose diving squarly into the feed ramp to cause it in the first place, but it seems to me that even with the straight walled case the plastic would be more willing to set back then a jacketed bullet, so here again either on the case or better yet on the sabot, I would like see a canelure to be sure.

I prefer a fully kneced down brass case to roll crimp right on a .223 bullet myself, just like the Boz but If a 10mm sabot can be made I would shoot!

Tazz10m
08-05-2000, 20:06
Yes, the sabot gets a canalure. It's also shaped at the front like a typical 10mm bullet for reliable feeding.

As for strength of the sabot, there are some really cool plastics out there which are very strong and fire resistant. Also, they are self-lubricating so that should help in the velocity realm as well as with cleaning.

The sabot is also designed to take the pressure of firing and transfer it all to moving the bullet.

The combination should allow us to use a very fast burning powder and help us to make up for some of that lost space in the powder room.

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

poochg
08-06-2000, 12:04
Great Tazz, I have never seen a canilure on a sabot, so that is a nice improvement. All the ones I've seen do have tapered conical bullet like shapes but I think its more to decrease the weight (smaller weight disturbs the larger mass less) becasue the 223 tip is going to stick out so far out and be hitting the feed ramp and directing the bullets path long before the sabot comes into play.

Well, all I can say is I'm as ready as I was last year, more speed to you!!!!!

Tazz10m
08-08-2000, 19:32
The way i got this thing designed, i dont know as if the tip will hit the feed ramp at all. The way the G29 is designed, the bullet almost goes straight into the chamber... and the way the sabot is designed, the sabot will hit the feed ramp way before the tip of the bullet hits it. If a bullet/gun combo is designed correctly, the tip of the bullet should NEVER touch anything. Any deformation of a the tip of a bullet, (obviously an issue with soft points), will throw accuracy right into the trash...

As for the canalure... i am not really sure that the sabot really needs one at all... as the sharp edge of the case will easily dig into the plastic of the sabot... but... i figure it might be nice to have an "edge" for the case mouth edge to butt up into as that might give a little more positive hold on any back pressure, and maybe it will lessen the need for as much crimp pressure.


------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Tamara
08-26-2000, 03:09
BTT...

Just noticed that this thread has been in constant rotation since 4/20. Can't just let it die!

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Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

Rusty Phillips
08-26-2000, 05:30
you would have to dig it up yet again....

ye troublemaker

Tazz10m
08-26-2000, 13:26
Trouble maker yea, but, SO good at it! http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Tazz10m
09-08-2000, 08:28
Yes! The rumors are TRUE! I found a source to get the 223XR sabot made just for us!! We are now waiting on a price from them.......... AAAAK!! The waiting is killing me! http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif I also have a source to load them commercially..... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

HiCap
09-08-2000, 09:27
Load them commercially? That may be expensive, can we buy the sabots and load our own? Hey, then we'll have the 223XR short loaded in a 40 case, hmm. Imagine a 40 carbine with a Schere 29rd mag loaded with 223XR sabots! Then the 223XR Super loaded in a 40 Super case, wow. It'll be like a handheld semi-auto 22-250. Then we can put on one of those funky carbine uppers and make a real blaster. This is great!

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Big Dawg #175

PurchGuru
09-08-2000, 16:55
Hey Taz ... did you leave the gate open again ??? Now we have to chase those dawgs out again !!!

They get so envious of our good caliber !

Wulfenite
09-09-2000, 09:45
Perhaps Tazz's source can put together some rock salt loads in 10mm to help control the mutts. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif

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Wulfenite
10-Ring Member #359
10mm - That's Gonna Leave A Mark...

Fredalso
09-09-2000, 15:29
But seriously, folks......

We should welcome our brethern from lesser places; how else can they learn? http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif

Hicap-
It would have potential for the 40 Super [does that need an "(R)"?).
But I have some concern, perhaps unfounded, about setback in the bottlenecked case.
I think a plastic sabot would not hold in the neck as well as a metal bullet.

Now if the sabot had a (potential) crimp groove, then the case mouth could be roll-crimped into it.

G33
09-09-2000, 17:22
My G20 is getting real excited!! http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif

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Grock (first Glock: 1,000,000 B.C.)

HiCap
09-09-2000, 17:32
Fredalso, I am pretty sure a cannelure was already decided on. If not then hopefully I can cannelure them if needed.

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Big Dawg #175

[This message has been edited by HiCap (edited 09-09-2000).]

Tazz10m
09-10-2000, 10:53
Plastic sabots are so soft that we may not need a cannelure, but we will put one in if we need it. Plastic is self lubricating and so "slippery" so we may need a little help from a cannelure, but we have to be careful because the cartridge headspaces on the rim. So far though, i dont see any problem with going with a sabot, rather i see more benefits. Also, by rigging up a little jig, the sabots could be drilled out on center and made to accept larger bullets like the .308 or .357, etc,. I guess that would give the .357 Sig a little run for it's money. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Fredalso
09-10-2000, 13:55
For use in 10mm, if there is a setback problem, we could maybe solve it by a cannelure in the case, just below the sabot base. Sort of like Federal does with all their 9mm ammo.

For use in 40 Super, a roll crimp should work, with the cartridge seating on the shoulder.

Tazz10m
09-10-2000, 19:33
Yeah, or even on both the sabot and the case. I wonder if it could be fairly deeply crimped on 4 sides of the case mouth so that would still leave a large surface area to headspace on, and upon firing the case would spread to complete the headspace.

It looks like we also may have some slide cycling issues relative to the low recoil impulse. We may need to use a dual spring setup.

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

Wulfenite
09-11-2000, 03:58
Does anyone know how the glock polygonal rifling will affect accuracy? I'm sure there is lots of experience with sabots in traditional rifling but as is the case with glocks and lead bullets or the marlin microgrove rifling and cast bullets, different combinations can produce unpredictable results.

------------------
Wulfenite
10-Ring Member #359
10mm - That's Gonna Leave A Mark...

Fredalso
09-11-2000, 04:46
Tazz-
Now that's an interesting idea.
Simplest way, at first anyway, might be a 2-step crimp.
First step is a normal taper crimp.
Second step might use a roll-crimp die which has been broach cut to leave 4 or 6 pieces of the roll.
(Or maybe reverse those two steps; whichever works best.)
It's a way to try this without the cost of making a really-complicated taper-plus-roll die.

Glock rifling plus plastic sabot?
Yeah, could be a problem, I guess.
If so, worst case is need of an aftermarket G20 or G29 barrel.

Logos35
09-22-2000, 15:50
Sent off an email to JD Jones regarding the development of a .224 Boz equivalent. Below is what he had to say.

"First I would scrap the 22 idea. 6.5---30 cal would be more effective, far easier to make and load for as well as possibly producing enough recoil to operate the gun. I would think a test contender barrel to develop ballistics the first step after developing forming-reaming-loading dies. I would expect the form -- ream--load dies would run in the area of $6--800. Reamers--$-175, Just about everything I've heard from private military type sources in and out of the US RE the 224 BOZ has been quite negative. After seeing what happens in a test barrel is the time to start looking into putting it into an autopistol. I'll look at Glocktalk when I get time---I usually don't look at the "chat rooms" due to the excessive amount of dangerous and misinformation in them. One major point woulb be---what do you expect this round to do??? JD"

For those of you who are unfamiliar with JD--he is one of the most prolific wildcatters who ever walked, and builds everything from exotic TC Contender/Encore barrels to Class II/III works of art.
http://www.sskindustries.com/

He asks a truly valid question--what do we want it to do?

poochg
09-22-2000, 20:00
We want it to send a 62 grain 224 diamter bullet at least or about in the range of 2,000 FPS! (more is ok, but 1,800 or forget about it)

Lots I can do with that round......hunt, plink, add another caliber to my 10's list, shoot bullets that cost me $.035 apiece, let my 22 lr know whos boss......is this is enough for JD........

Love ya JD, but no thanks on the 6mm, sure in theory it might be better.....but we want it in .224. If we have to we will move to a heaveir bullet and slow the velocity down, but .224 is like the yardstick for this project.......dont you all agree?

PurchGuru
10-10-2000, 17:42
Relax Tamara, I found it ... (answer to another post being started and wondering where this one had gotten off to ...).

------------------
#710 in "The 10 Ring"

Why 10 mm ? ...

Because it is the MEANEST dog in the fight!

Tamara
10-10-2000, 19:08
Heh... The Eternal Thread...

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Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

poochg
10-15-2000, 07:00
Are you down there in that dungeon playing with your samuri again?

poochg
10-15-2000, 07:00
Sorry, but only forum leaders are permitted to delete posts.

But ours is busy polishing his samauri!

[This message has been edited by poochg (edited 10-15-2000).]

PurchGuru
10-20-2000, 14:58
Taz,

You haven't posted to this for some time ... We aren't going to let it fall-off the list.

Anything new to report ???

Tazz10m
10-20-2000, 15:21
...still work'n on it... There are several different routes that could be taken on this project and we are trying to figure the best one to take. We are still waiting to hear from a couple of "experts"...

...the rest, i really can't talk about until later...

Isnt waiting and not knowing fun? http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

------------------
The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.

poochg
10-20-2000, 18:16
Tazz223XR,

Who's "we"?

What are the "routes"?

and

Who are the "experts"?

poochg
11-11-2000, 08:15
Not so fast there Tazz a maraz.........

Are you your word? This post is growing like my children! Now whats up, you said you wanted to make this happen, now you don't even seem to want to talk about it.

I'm not trying to embarrass you, but how about a response to my prior post?

G33
11-11-2000, 14:09
Wait........


Wait........


Wait.........


http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif...........

poochg
11-14-2000, 10:24
Originally posted by PurchGuru:
Taz,

You haven't posted to this for some time ... We aren't going to let it fall-off the list.

Anything new to report ???

Here here, indeed!!!!

Tazzz??????

Tazz10m
11-15-2000, 10:40
Huh? What? Where??? http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

It's like this people, i only have so much time to put into this project, especially when there is no promise of compensation for monies spent to make it happen. On top of that i have been totally swamped with "prepaid" orders, and those babies pay for my time to do "new product research". What most of you dont know is that i have been fighting a couple of companies that got together, stole Agrip secrets, made a faked product like Agrip, tried to sell the product in Eagle Hardware, and tried to put me out of business by trying to exhaust my ability to pay for attorney and court costs.

I won, they LOST!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gifhttp://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gifhttp://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gifhttp://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

Those companies are "Trade Associates" of Auburn, Washington, which makes cheap Tiawanese pnumatic tools like air hammers and chisels, paint guns, sanders, etc., under various names. These tools are VERY common in the big hardware stores. The guy that owns this company is named "Bill Turnbull", and his wife is in cahoots with him. The other company is "Silver Beau Construction", good question on the address, the guy is a fly-by-night-gypsy that is currently hiding from creditors down around San Louis Obispo, CA. His name is "Randy Schindele". The guy is a low-life piece of crap who would let kids starve just to make a buck. Pi$$ on him. Pi$$ on his wife Rachael too. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

Top Current Priority: paying off all the debt related to this fiasco, and getting back on my feet. All this means is the customer comes first, cool projects second.

In addition, the "slowness" of GT loading, or even loading properly really hinders my ability to respond to threads here at GT in a timely manner...

So, what does all this mean? It means that if i dont get any help or money earmarked specifically for this project, it has to wait. Simple huh?

It also would have been nice if the guy that ALREADY makes sabots for other calibers would get back to me like he said he would.

Unless we have people here at GT that can donate CAD/CAM services to help us out, this project is going to take a while... sorry...

------------------
Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

poochg
11-17-2000, 20:55
Don't get me wrong, It's not that I am un-sympathetic.......its just.......well.....ok the truth is; the dog ate my homework.

All I asked was:

Who's "we"?

What are the "routes"?

and

Who are the "experts"?

poochg
12-02-2000, 17:55
So Tazz......really have you been hosing us?

Just trying to keep face or what? You post on this board all the time, so its not like you dont have the time to post, why don't you respond to my question?

Tazz10m
12-02-2000, 18:14
Poochg, no, i really dont have any time. All my time is paid for in advance by my customers, and Agrip is not all we make here, we also make aircraft steering controls and are in the middle of designing several new products, some of which are going through testing right now.

Who is "we" and what "it" is that we are working on? All classified on a "need to know" basis. If no one can figure out "who" it is exactly that is working on a specific project, they dont know who to milk for the information, so they are less likely to try. As for the "it", or the specific products being worked on, we dont talk about the products we are inventing for obvious reasons.

As for the .223XR, it is just going to have to wait until the time/funds become availible. Squeeky wheel gets the grease. Got money?

------------------
Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

m65swede
12-13-2000, 15:15
I'm fairly new to GlockTalk and just found this thread today. But I am a long time reloader and sabot shooter, so thought I would relate a couple of things (and BTT).

These modern sabots can withstand any pressures/velocities you could generate in a handgun caliber such as this. Proper design can lead to exceptional accuracy as well.

An earlier post questioned the distance at which the sabot falls away from the bullet. There seems to be a lot of variation in the sabots used in commercial shotgun/slug sabots and muzzleloader sabots. I usually find the spent sabot from 10 to 35 yards downrange.

But, my Shooting Chrony wears a 1/2 inch diameter x 3/8 deep crater in its metal case; result of a Hornady shotgun slug sabot @ 12 feet. The slug was centered over the "eyes", but the sabot had apparently peeled away at this short range.

Interesting project ya got going here. Hmmmm, I wonder how fast the .224 Hornady 35 grain V-Max would fly out of a short barrel?

Swede


------------------
Big Dawg #633
Member NRA, ISRA, VHA
6.5mm Swedish Mausers and Varmint Rifles

HiCap
12-13-2000, 18:58
Hey, lets make this three pages long, whaddaya say?

------------------
Big Dawg #175

MCNETT
12-14-2000, 05:23
COOL!

------------------
"TO OUTLAW GUNS MEANS THAT ONLY THE OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS"

Tazz10m
12-14-2000, 09:48
Where are we now? In the process of getting in place a new computer and better CAD/CAM software to streamline the design/mfg process.

We are in the middle of introducing a new tritium night sight that is different than anything on the market... VERY fast, VERY accurate, in any light and even at extended distances... stay tuned...

------------------
Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

Tamara
12-14-2000, 11:14
The lights in the mad scientist workshop on Fox Island burn deep into the night, for "invention knows no timeclock". http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

------------------
Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
10mm: When you care enough to send the very best!

Tazz10m
12-16-2000, 07:33
Oh so it's YOU Tam who's been watching me through that telescope from across the water! How's the resolution? I'm looking for a good spotting scope. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif It's SO funny you should write that, because that is exactly what i was doing late into last night... designing a new night site... and was/am so amazed at how much consideration was/is going into the exact size of the white dot on the front sight, and the tritium lamp in the middle, and width of the sight, and the shape of the sight, and how the front sight fits into the rear sight, and how all that relates to seeing that front sight against any background, and how to get that elusive ever finer accuracy, faster, easier, more naturally, so that the mind subconsciously lines up the sights, so you can keep your eyes on the TARGET (read "threat") and the front sight is where you want it automatically. I know what i want to design, i even have prototypes... but the specific size relationships of everything are just mind boggling... especially when you have to put it down on paper, and everything is just so small that it is basically impossible to draw at 1:1 scale because the pen lines are so thick, (thin as they are). So, ya draw it bigger, and it looks wrong, even though it's right... AAAAAAakkkkkk..... this, is were the imagination comes in! (...and the ability to make quick easy and cheap prototypes... and loving what you're doing...) I had to force myself to put it all down and go to sleep last night.

Then there's the rear sight.........

http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

------------------
Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

Tamara
12-23-2000, 17:41
Tazz,

Isn't that why God created CAD programs? http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/wink2.gif

------------------
Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
10mm: When you care enough to send the very best!

TKM
12-23-2000, 19:46
Okay, as I see it, you want a sight that naturally draws the eye to the center of the focal area. Have you spoken to the people at the mudflap factory? Two chrome-plated beautys on either side of an "ahhumm" upright center column. It will sell big in truck-stops. Just a thought. Whats the word on the Elvis toilet seat covers? Bah furshlugginer Humbug.

------------------
Happiness is a warm 10.

Tazz10m
12-23-2000, 20:25
Tam, there are some things that CAD just can't do... they haven't quite got the Phazi-Psychophysiologic Seconde Guesseur Module (or 3PSGM) dialed in yet... and they don't want to pay me enought to fix it... although i thought i might have overheard something about somebody that was willing to do it for some sushi as long as it was Kosher... geeeeee, now why does THAT sound so familiar?

TKM, the trick to making these babies work is to get RID of the "distractions"...

http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

------------------
Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

CastleBravo
12-27-2000, 16:31
All this is nice, but will putting an Agrip on my Glock 20C make it too fat? I mean, I love the idea... but it's kind of a borderline case from the girth point of view as it is http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

------------------
CastleBravo
10 Ring # 5150

Tazz10m
12-27-2000, 19:19
Well, Agrip mic's out at .025" thick and .010" when compressed. Is that too thick? Also, there is an unconditional money back guarantee, as in i will even refund your shipping and handling if you dont like it or whatever.

------------------
Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

[This message has been edited by Tazz10m (edited 12-29-2000).]

Tamara
01-30-2001, 07:28
Whew! Just caught it before it dropped off the scope.

Can't let the 10-Ring's version of "The Eternal Flame" get extinguished!

------------------
Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
MOLON LABE!

Erich
02-08-2001, 10:48
Hey, this is a really interesting thread. I'm just writing because I don't want to see it die. I love bottlenecked rounds: the more extreme, the better.

Let me know when you get it perfected!
cheers, erich

lendringser
02-27-2001, 15:44
[shameless attempt to rekindle The Post That Would Not Die]

Whatever happened to the sabot idea? You know, .223 bullets in a discarding plastic sabot? The howling from the Dawg Pound would never cease when they get to see the velocity and kinetic energy numbers.(But then again, they're so in love with their slow, heavy, bumbling bricks...)

[/shameless attempt to rekindle The Post That Would Not Die]


------------------
"I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I

TKM
02-27-2001, 17:31
Just spitballing here. How about a hard(sealing waxish) compound with a gas check. Maybe just for prototypes... I use something similar with paintballs to colorize the pigeons. I had a good idea once, really I did. Honest.

------------------
Happiness is a warm 10.

poochg
04-28-2001, 13:12
Thought some of you newcommers might like to see a piece of history from the 10 ring. this was a folow up post that went as long or longer then this one!

So Tazz10mm, how is it comming? Just curious!

Fortyfied
05-07-2001, 11:58
Has a 10mm bottleneck wildcat in .30 carbine been made? Maybe it was tried and failed? The cartridge would look similar to the 357Sig, but would launch a .3065 bullet.

------------------
Big Dawg 870
The 10 Ring 870

[This message has been edited by Fortyfied (edited 05-07-2001).]

poochg
05-07-2001, 15:31
People here have talked about using 30 cal to 223 accelerators in the 30 carbine! I have load data for that load, if you want it, if you have bought the accelerators, you probably got the load data.......

Westicle
05-08-2001, 05:46
Yes the .30 Cal Bottle neck Cartridge has been made by a Fellow in British Columbia Canada.

It is called the .30 Armco "The .30Armco, by the way, is a 10mm case necked down, firing a 110grain .308 varmint bullet at 1850fps from a 5" 1911!"

http://www.armco-guns.com/images/Text%20Pics/30armco1.jpg

Check out his web Site at ARMCO GUNS (http://www.armco-guns.com)



------------------
Proud TO BE CANADIAN
Big Dawg #403 (G21C)
Niner #403 (G17)
Wheelhouse #403 (617-1/SBH .44)

G33
05-08-2001, 17:27
Oooooooooh!
Looks like the .357 Sig on steroids.

Tazz10m
05-09-2001, 07:03
Well, there is always the "other alternative" which is to use the 30 Armco brass and barrel, then load them up with 30-223 sabots... which theoretically will work, but, if a bottle necked cartridge is going to be used, why not neck it all the way down to .223? Reason: we want to use the stock 10mm barrel and cases. (That 30 Armco really is cool though! http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif )

------------------
Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

Rusty Phillips
05-12-2001, 07:53
you know - all this talk about & waiting for sabots has really gotten to me.

i just cant stand it anymore.

i want to load something.

SO,

im going to take some Speer 50 grain TNT's and wrap the bullets up as tightly as i can in teflon pipe tape until they are about .452-.460 inches, and then stuff them into 45 acp cases full of bullseye and cut them loose in my 625.

if i had a 610 id try to do this in 10mm but i dont so i wont.

i figure at least we can start experimenting with quasi saboted 223's in our 10's and 45's.

probably a 610 (or 625) would allow some of the load development to progress without having to worry about slide velocity and automatic function of the G20.

we can sort all that out later IF we get sabots.

STOP THE MADNESS! somebody give me some sabots before do something really foolish - please!

Tazz10m
05-12-2001, 09:02
Rusty, maybe you could find a .45 sabot and wrap the bullet, stuff it, and slit the teflon tape so that it peals away on exit. This way you have sabot against the barrel rather than teflon tape. Teflon tape against the barrel might expand and cause a pressure spike, but i have no idea.

------------------
Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

poochg
05-12-2001, 15:52
A barrel/cylinder gap is less then ideal for shooting sabots! (be very carefull)

poochg
05-12-2001, 15:52
[This message has been edited by poochg (edited 05-12-2001).]

Tamara
05-13-2001, 04:33
Has anyone converted a 610 to .40-44 Woodswalker yet?

10mm 150gr Sierras @ 2400ish fps sounds intrigueing... http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/devil.gif

------------------
Come say "Hi!" at my neighborhood gun shop (http://www.beigerocket.com/montague.htm)!
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Big Dawg #447
MOLON LABE!

Rusty Phillips
05-23-2001, 13:55
i tried wrapping a 50 grain tnt in pipe tape, but ran out of pipe tape before i could get it up to anything close to .452"

so.... i thought why not try it in my 9mm?

heres the pic of a loaded round next to a Triton 115 grain quick shock

http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/RustyRP/images/P5220009.jpg

basically to make the bullet / sabot (non discarding as I was later to find out) combination - I stuck the bullet point end first into a small dia drinking straw so i would have something to hold onto

then i wrapped teflon pipe tape around the bullet (clockwise if looking at the base of the bullet) using the straw as a handle

when I got it close to 9mm - I ran out of pipe tape.... so I sort of mushed it together between my fingers - to roll it up tighter

then - thinking that it might help to consolidate the teflon layers together.... i heated the nose of the bullet with a flame from a match.... as a side note - the plastic drinking straw immediately melted away from the bullet / pipe tape, and the frontmost part fo the teflon got a little sooty, but it did seem to harden up a bit

I then pushed the slightly oversized bullet through my lee loader (9mm) which has a tapered passageway and was perfect for compacting the oversized teflon wadding down to close to .355

this composite bullet was then seated over 6.8 grains of accurate #5, and then I attempted to crimp it into place using my Dilon 550

attempted to crimp is the operative phrase, as the bullet easily pulled out when I attempted to check its fit in the chamber - dumping the powder charge all over.....

not wanting to delay the test firing any longer I decided to shake all the powder off of my pants & onto asheet of paper & try to get it back into the case as best as possible

I then attempted to fire said cartridge out of my G26....

for some strange reason it didnt fire on the first strike....

i reset the trigger & tried again - this time i got a light poof.... the slide didnt even move

i didnt see a bullet impact in the soft sandy soil I was using as a backdrop, but I did see a small shard of teflon pipe tape flying around

thinking that the teflon & the bullet might be stuck in the barrel, I carefully disassembled the gun & looked down the barrel from the chamber end

it was clear.... not even any powder residue like i normally get with my 4.9 grain (accurate #5) 147 ranier loads....

i looked in the empty case, no powder residue

i was able to find the bullet - and as you will see there was no deformation to the bullet, and only a little distortion to the teflon

http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/RustyRP/images/P5220033.jpg

Im not sure, but it seems to me that the teflon bullet was pushed out the barrel by the primer charge (and all the unburnt powder was blown out the barrel too)

at any rate - I had fun, and I didnt blow anything up or lose any brain cells or fingers or anything

of course, some might say I didnt have too many brain cells to begin with, but that is perhaps the beginning of another thread....

ONE MORE THING - man - those 224's are LOONG...... I am now of the opinion that instead of trying to get sabots for the 9mm 10mm or 45acp or whatever.... we would be better served finding a source of ultra liteweight (RCBD style) full caliber (short) bullets..... I think we would have much better success pushing a short full caliber 55-75 grain fmj to super high velocities than to get anything close to the same results with a 55 grina 224 bullet in a sabot....

due to the projectile length, and the length requirement to fit in the magazine, IMO you end up with too little powder space left over

the round I made up above was too long to fit in the G26 mag..... I realize that the 10mm is a tad longer, but you still have the problem of putting a long bullet in a short case and wanting to cram in a fair bit of powder to boot.

ok - i better go to bed before the meds wear off

http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/RustyRP/images/P5220011.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/RustyRP/images/P5220020.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/RustyRP/images/P5220014.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/RustyRP/images/P5220015.jpg

[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 05-27-2001).]

VN350X10
05-23-2001, 14:38
Hey Tazz, just a thought herehttp://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/sunglasses.gifoes anyone remember the .357/.44 Bain & Davis "BOBCAT" from the early '70s ?
It worked very well, sabot,cyl. gap & all.
But in this case, the sabot was really a sleve to support the case, & it acted like a chamber insert; the bbl. was bore size for the bullet.

Rusty Phillips
06-16-2001, 07:19
ok so anybody made any progress on this ????

any thoughts on the teflon patched bullets described above?

well, ok - so the pics in my description dont work - go to my web site & scroll down
http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/RustyRP/

comments?

Fredalso
06-16-2001, 09:30
Sounds like a lot of work.
And the teflon tape may be too soft to take the rifling.
If you do that again, how about using a faster powder (light bullet), and firing it thru a chronograph?
Might even start with a .22/.30 sabot, and build that up.

Tazz10m
06-16-2001, 12:40
Quite possibly the easiest thing to do would be to get a .400 OD rod of teflon and then cut down little pellets to length, then drill them in a jig with a drill press to .22, then cut a X dead center from the top. It would be best to first put the teflon rod in a lathe and shape each sabot first so that there is a relief area so that the petals can peal back easy and lathe away some of the base so more powder will fit and bevel the OD of the mouth so it will feed best then cut each one out, drill, and countersink the mouth so the wind catches the petals and slows the sabot and peals the petals back. It could be done pretty easy but it would take some time to get the jigs made and dialed in with a little precision. I'll try to remember to pick up some teflon rod next time i am out and about.

------------------
Your first and best weapon or tool is always your mind.

Reality always takes precedence.

The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort. Get Agrip!

Kilgor
11-25-2001, 16:07
New info?

Rusty Phillips
11-25-2001, 16:15
I said it before and Ill say it again

Originally posted by Rusty Phillips
i tried wrapping a 50 grain tnt in pipe tape,

- man - those 224's are LOONG...... I am now of the opinion that instead of trying to get sabots for the 9mm 10mm or 45acp or whatever.... we would be better served finding a source of ultra liteweight (RCBD style) full caliber (short) bullets..... I think we would have much better success pushing a short full caliber 55-75 grain fmj to super high velocities than to get anything close to the same results with a 55 grina 224 bullet in a sabot....

due to the projectile length, and the length requirement to fit in the magazine, IMO you end up with too little powder space left over


IF YOU WANT SUPER HIGH VELOCITY,

and it has to fit in a G20 magazine,

follow the RCBD example

Kaliburz
11-26-2001, 05:26
Interesting. I glanced at the posts, but 6 pages of stuff, one can miss a lot.

Any how, the length is no problem for Kaliburz since I'm planning to use it in a 6" 610.

Casper
11-28-2001, 14:12
Have you looked at black powder rifle sabots for the old .40 henry? I believe they use a 32 caliber bullet. If you haven't looked into the modern black powder stuff recently, you might be pleasantly surprised ;)

Tazz10m
11-28-2001, 16:31
I did a lot of looking around, but i never found any .40 cal sabots. Did i miss some???

Got a link?

Update: MarkCO is on the project...

Stay tuned...

Casper
11-28-2001, 23:33
Sorry, I went back and looked. I thought for sure I saw some 409 sabots, but they were 451.

PurchGuru
12-26-2001, 14:47
Just wanted to bring this to the fore-front again ... any new news?

Tamara
12-28-2001, 05:33
...to see this thread still alive. ;a

Rusty Phillips
12-29-2001, 02:11
Originally posted by Tamara
...to see this thread still alive. ;a

Even better to see that you are still alive. Hope all is well.

sopmodm4
01-03-2002, 06:59
Yippe I' making the first post of the year 2002(on this thread);)

Any luck on the sabots?
I wonder if a .50BMG sabot could be turned down to .45ACP diameter without falling apart?That would allow the use of a .30cal varmint bullet in a Glock 21.

Hmmmmm?

BTW:I saw a post on wilcats cartridges being renamed to avoid copyright infringement for those who merely copyrighted rather than pantented their ideas.There is a version of the .300 Whisper called the .300 Fireball.It's a subsonic round for use in suppressed M16s and it has actually been used by SpecOps teams on more then one occasion.I wonder if there is a similar alternative to the ".2** B*z"?Anyway if you can buy a .300 fireball barrel,dies,reamers when it is an exact copy of a JDJ caliber why not the other?

PurchGuru
11-27-2002, 21:29
Couldn't let this thing totally disappear ...

Hey TAZ! Have you forgotten us? ;a

Tazz10m
11-28-2002, 01:16
Haven't forgotten at all. The on going big hold-up is getting the sabots made. I talked at length with the owner of a good sized company that specializes in making sabots at the shot show and the costs involved are enormous and basically prohibitive without a much larger market for the sabots. Many thousands of dollars.

Anyone feeling philanthropic?

Rusty Phillips
11-28-2002, 16:25
tazz - i know you guys are hung up on sabots.....


but how difficult would it be to get some jacketed 77 grain 10mm bullets

or even 55 grain?



wouldnt this be a good place to start? at least you can be loading and shooting something instead of wasting time trying to convince someone to make sabots

from the rbcd website
10mm 77 gr. TFSP 2420 fps / 1015 flbs

Tazz10m
11-28-2002, 16:58
I don't think anyone would mind having 77 or 55 grain 10mm bullets to shoot, but the reasons we wanted to go with the .223 bullet was the variety of .22 bullets available out there for reloading and the fact that British company making the .224 Boz are playing the stuuuuuuuuupid "LEO Only" game. We 10-Ringers just wanted to have a round we could call our own that was not compromised by political or commercial issues.

A 77 grainer kick'n 2420 fps??? ;f How stable is the flight? What kind of accuracy are people getting at 25, 50, and 100yds?

PurchGuru
11-28-2002, 17:01
Yes, Taz ... how about our buddy down in Alabama/OleMiss that likes to load special 10mm? Probably worth a checkout?

You know who I mean don't you?

Rusty Phillips
11-29-2002, 09:23
http://www.rbcd.net/Personal%20Defense%20Ammo.htm

or call 210-223-4009 or
Toll Free: 1-877-688-5985

as far as accuracy - i dunno - why dont you buy some and let us know

the reason i keep bringing this up is that if you ultimately do want to load 10 mm / 223 sabots, you are gonna have to go with some pretty fast powders - as the bullets are gonna offer very little resistance and the expansion ratio is pretty big (volume behind the bullet as it travels down the bore)

the other problem is providing enough momentum to cycle the slide all the way back

didnt cds have to lighten their slide?

you can sort thru these issues with either a 60 grain 10mm bullet, or with a 10/223 sabot and 55 grain 223 bullet.....

besides - i honestly think that you stand a lot better chance of getting a 60 grain 10mm bullet before the end of 2002 than you do getting a 10/223 sabot before the end of 2007

and finally - lets talk about projectile length

a 60 grain 10mm bullet would be pretty damn short... you might even make it as a hollow based style just to give enough bearing surface

compared to this - a 55 grain 223 bullet is very long.... you might not have much room left for powder after cramming in that rifle bullet in to a oal that will fit a g20 mag

G33
11-29-2002, 15:45
I am thinking it would be easier to just steal...uh mean appropriate...the .224 Boz and all needed adjuncts.;Q

brass shower
05-05-2003, 17:09
Any updates to this project?

DeadMansLife
05-05-2003, 17:46
I don't know about updates but I have an idea.

How about using the .224 BOZ dimensions and a 10mm Mag case trimmed to 26mm and change the shoulder angle 1į? It is not the same cartrige and therefore not subject to the patent.

Sure, you'd still have to buy a barrel but you'd have what you wanted to begin with, a .224 BOZ that is not restricted.

Anvil
05-08-2003, 04:50
I don't have much handloading / wildcatting experience to donate to this project but I'm enthrawled by the thread. While I don't have any usefull info to contribute I can doanate a few dollars to the cause. Tazz, do you have a paypal account?

faro
05-08-2003, 12:42
I am trying ot find the patents that cover the .224 BOZ but I am unable to find anything. I have searched the PTO website and other places with no results. Any ideas?

faro
05-19-2003, 00:53
Still looking...

MakeMineA10mm
05-23-2003, 13:17
I see two diametrically opposed goals here:

1. This was originally invisaged as a way to get the 224 BOZ for us without all the rigemarole of the CDS BS (LE-Only and Patented).

2. Taz wants to do it with a standard 10mm case (40-cal sabots to shoot 224" bullets in the standard 10mm case).

I think there are too many roadblocks to get both of these goals in one leap. There is a lot of expense and trouble with the 40-cal sabots, as Taz has already said.

If any of you are really serious about this, there is already an off-the-shelf answer for you. Just get a 30 ARMCO barrel, and load the already-available 224 to 30-cal sabots in it. The only quirk that needs to be overcome with this is that there may be OAL of the loaded rounds issues. This would be more easily overcome than getting 40-cal sabots made. (One can carefully select the 224" bullets to reduce the OAL, such as lightweight, non-spire-point bullets of the type commonly made for 218 Bee, or one can ream the sabot pocket for the 224" bullets a little deeper. Or, I suppose you can do both, such as loading the 63gr Win. SMP bullet, which is blunt-nosed, yet get heavier weight, by reaming the bullet pocket in the sabot deeper.)

PurchGuru
10-24-2004, 08:49
OK, OK ... I have been away for awhile and this thread has nearly died!

I guess no new news??? Maybe if I "wake" the thread back up we can work on it some more?

Tazz, I KNOW that you haven't forgotten about this!!!!!

Kaliburz
10-24-2004, 11:08
Originally posted by PurchGuru
OK, OK ... I have been away for awhile and this thread has nearly died!

I guess no new news??? Maybe if I "wake" the thread back up we can work on it some more?

Tazz, I KNOW that you haven't forgotten about this!!!!!

I forgot about this thread..... and that I was on the inform if someone posts lists....



With the FN 5.7 (if I recall the caliber) pistol available to the public now, is a custom round (or was it saboted idea, haven'ted followed that much which route was taken or recall ) expensive....

;e ;a

brass shower
10-24-2004, 11:43
A couple interesting things I've noticed recently

The leitner-wise 7.82Sx24 is a 10mm necked down to .30 caliber like the Canadian 30 armco and loaded with a saboted .224" bullet. http://www.leitner-wise.com/products/82s.htm has more infomation.

Of greater interest since it seems to be nearing release is the .22 Reed Express, a 7.62x25 necked down to .224 , it can be found at http://www.reedsammo.com/Page.html

The preliminary load data is done, all the loads are from a 10" Contender barrel 10 shot strings average velocity. Those marked with a * are not running at full power yet. We have not finished any of the loads with all the suitable powders and bullets.

30g - 2782
33g - 2733
35g - 2721
40g - 2596
45g - 2510
50g - 2480
53g - *
55g - 1981*
60g - *

G33
10-24-2004, 13:55
Yar....
Where is Tamara?
I know...TFL.;a

Kaliburz
10-24-2004, 22:40
Originally posted by brass shower
A couple interesting things I've noticed recently

The leitner-wise 7.82Sx24 is a 10mm necked down to .30 caliber like the Canadian 30 armco and loaded with a saboted .224" bullet. http://www.leitner-wise.com/products/82s.htm has more infomation.

Of greater interest since it seems to be nearing release is the .22 Reed Express, a 7.62x25 necked down to .224 , it can be found at http://www.reedsammo.com/Page.html

The preliminary load data is done, all the loads are from a 10" Contender barrel 10 shot strings average velocity. Those marked with a * are not running at full power yet. We have not finished any of the loads with all the suitable powders and bullets.

30g - 2782
33g - 2733
35g - 2721
40g - 2596
45g - 2510
50g - 2480
53g - *
55g - 1981*
60g - *

Nice. I wonder what the overall length of the ammo is......

I know the 7.62x25 is too long to fit in a 1911 frame, but if this wildcat is shorter, it might fit. The head is similar to a 9mm.....

Wildcats are nice, but standardization is also cool. As I said, the 5.7x28 would be cool...as it's now "legal and available".

brass shower
10-25-2004, 22:18
Reed mentioned a 1911 project in the works, which will be very cool. The 5.7x28 35 gr clocks 2100 fps out of my five-seven, and is a hoot to shoot, the lack of reload info or dies for the round disappoints me though. I sure wouldnt mind another couple hundred fps added onto the same bullet, or heavier bullets for that matter. Tracers sure are fun too and are readily available to load up in Reed's cartrige. Brass available by resizing 7.62x25... I cant think of anything I dislike about this round aside from it not being released yet.

PurchGuru
11-08-2004, 19:59
OK,

Had to push this thing back to the top ... Tazz, is this a dead issue or are you still thinking about it?

Why don't you put the dungeon rat on it ... you know, ole sammi boy ... ;a

(intended to incite samurairabbi into action)

Tazz10m
11-08-2004, 21:46
I wouldn't count on Sammi being too interested in anything having to do with a real caliber until he finally wakes up and buys a 10mm. Sammi is just a well taken care of 10 Ring dungeon slave boy. We just like to make him feel special because that way we get more work out of him. Sammi is also into S&M so he actually loves the abuse anyway.

As for the 223XR, i think it's more than likely going to boil down to me finally getting around to hand making some sabots which MCNETT can then load up, and we can then dial them in to proper specs. After that it boils down to who and how they can be mass produced for as little money as possible. This last part is the tricky part as it will not be "cheap". Since "a profit making" was/has not been in the planning so far, it will be really interesting to see what kind of "donations" (money, time, resources, etc.,) will come the way of the 223XR.

TKM
01-03-2005, 00:59
Just dragging the thread into the new year.

Someone was asking about the 224Boz and I'm just checking for progress.

Oh well.

Tazz10m
02-10-2005, 22:07
The .223XR is alive well and progressing nicely. Preliminary drawings, designed, engineered, and drawn by yours truly, are now in the hands of the machinist, a 10 Ring member, no less. The persons, except for yours truly, doing this will remain secret until the project is complete and it's time to take a bow. The first of the prototype .223XR rounds are in progress being milled to perfection. They will then loaded into nice fresh 10mm brass... soon to be test fired by yours truly. Design will then be refined and adjustments made until properly dialed in. We will load no 10 until it's time. We are pushing for a 55 grainer kicking out to 2305 fps with a standard G20 barrel, and 2435 fps with a 6". Of course, these velocities are still just theoretical until we actually do it. We think we can do it and maybe can even better those velocities. Heavy emphasis is being placed on proper spin rate and petal separation aerodynamics in order to maximize accuracy. The .223XR is also designed in such a way that will idealize chamber pressure and reduce or eliminate any problems with barrel fouling. We are off to a very good start. We have the technology. The 10 Ringer doing the machining is also an expert in making plastic injection molds and will make them as soon as the design is finalized. This will take a little time and patience, but will be worth it. This project has also led to other fun little projectile projects to be announced... but first comes the .223XR.

We are on it! ;f

fraglord
02-11-2005, 15:28
Tazz,

thanks for all your efforts on this cartridge. Like many others I have been considering purchasing a FN 5.7, not due to need but just because it's so cool. $800+ for the gun and $40/box for ammo is just too much for something like that. I will gladly pony up for a .223 XR conversion barrel and some Doubletap ammo, however. I think there are many other G20 owners who will as well.

Keep us updated!

Tazz10m
02-12-2005, 00:07
Conversion barrel??? We don't need no stinking conversion barrels! The .223XR is designed to be fired out of standard "10mm Auto" barrels! That means it will work out of any 10mm firearm in good shape... G29, G20, Delta Elites, MecTec CCU's, MP5/10mm's....... ;f It's also looking like it may even be possible to use these same sabots in 40 S&W brass and barrels, but we are not holding our breath on that one. It may be necessary to use shorter bullets than 55 grainers if .40 S&W is the aim. Also, if going the 40 route, the velocities will be no where near as fast as the 10.

Did i mention that the sabots will be made available alone for reloaders to roll their own? Oh yeah, baby! Not just preloaded complete cartridges.

Being a 10 Ring member DOES have its advantages! ;f

swampmaster
02-12-2005, 05:32
OMG I think I am having a feeling that I have not had in a long time.I think it is time to get the G20 and Smith Brothers,and Mr. Kimber ready for action again

fraglord
02-12-2005, 09:11
Holy cow I had no idea the .223 XR could be fired out of a standard 10mm barrel! I thought it would need a conversion barrel like 9x25mm.

This caliber will be a success.

JinLA
02-12-2005, 11:25
Wow, we've got some talented folk here!
This is a much better idea than 224boz. I'll take 2!;f

Tazz10m
02-12-2005, 15:15
The only thing that i can think of that the .224 Boz might have over the .223XR is accuracy. It can be pretty difficult to make a bullet carried by a sabot super accurate. But then, when it all gets down to the nitty-gritty and it's intended purpose the .223XR really doesn't need to be 1 MOA accurate. If we can get 2 inch groups at 100 yds, i'll dance a little jig! If we can get 1 inch groups at 100 yrds, i'll have a screaming orgasm and pass out! ;f

Wulfenite
02-12-2005, 15:26
Heck, if it will stay on COM at a 100 yards out of my 29 it will do everything I need it to.

Kilgor
02-12-2005, 16:39
Crap, I can't get 1" groups at 25 yards, much less 100. It's a pistol. I would be happy with 3" groups at 25 yards.

If I have a 100 yard shot where I need to put the bullet into 1-2", I am reaching for something with a stock.

Kaliburz
02-14-2005, 23:56
Sweet.

Pinkerton
02-22-2005, 01:38
Tazz,

I would be very interested in some Sabots and loaded ammo.
Please keep us informed!


Thanks,

Pinkerton OUT!

maarten221
03-11-2005, 13:08
Just an idea here and not to throw you guys off...

Why place the sabot behind the round? While I carried in South Africa I had .45 ACP rounds that had a blue plastic cap over a steel, pointed core. It looked something like this:

I can't remember the quoted velocities, but I know it was more than 1400fps - they were also deadly accurate. I can remember knocking soda cans off a fence at around 25 yds off hand. Sounds a little better than the accuracy of other sobated rounds. Imagine what a high powered 10mm sabot like this can do?

Sturmcrow
03-18-2005, 23:53
When a sabot is behind the bullet it effectively acts as an oversized gasket that ties the pressure of the expanding gasses to the projectile. If the sabot were in front, wouldn't it just shoot out of the barrel by itself, leaving the projectile behind to tumble out of control in the gasses?

Tazz10m
03-19-2005, 00:06
Originally posted by Sturmcrow
When a sabot is behind the bullet it effectively acts as an oversized gasket that ties the pressure of the expanding gasses to the projectile. If the sabot were in front, wouldn't it just shoot out of the barrel by itself, leaving the projectile behind to tumble out of control in the gasses?

Basically, yes.

The sabot also has to do a bit of stabilizing of the bullet and then let the bullet go on its own without upsetting it or slowing it down.

Greybeard
03-26-2005, 09:13
Very interesting thread. I can certainly appreciate some of the things involved in getting to this point.

New G29 might need to eat some of that one of these days ... ' Got a chrono and a buddy with Dillon 550B. Poor guy still shoots a Sig in .40. Maybe there is hope for him too. ;)

Disciple
09-09-2005, 04:37
Update?

longship
09-16-2005, 06:54
I'm really interested in this project myself. Any ideas of when there might be an update? Thanks for all your work on this idea. :cool:

badkarmaiii
11-24-2005, 02:13
My .02,
I'd rather have a 10mm necked down to .30 than .224. The use of already available sabots would facilitate .224 bullets. I think something like the .30 Armco or 7.82 L-W would be really nifty for extended range pistol shooting as well as soft armor penetration with better terminal results that any .22 varmint round derivative. If one could mimick the 7.62x39 to fit in a 10mm Auto envelope, I think it would do what the .224 BOZ and 5.7x28 endeavored to accomplish, only better, with the option of a small-bore projectile if the legions of varmints should attack.

JWP
12-13-2005, 10:59
what i'm doing till this happens is using the 30cal sabots with a 40gr bullet in cz52 762x25 cartridge

2100fps with non max load

GroundedCLK
05-11-2006, 08:20
I know this thread is old but has it gone anywhere.

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/board/?topic=topic1&msg=972

Tazz10m
05-14-2006, 01:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah, bleah, bleah, bleah, boz this, boz that, that ad is a bunch of crap.

...but, to better answer your question, it appears our guy who was to do his part has not been able to "do his part" (for whatever reason)... and so... we need to find someone who CAN...

We have not failed... yet! :supergrin:

...so... any relatively ambitious takers out there with the where-with-all to "follow thru" in making a sabot?

Tazz10m
06-24-2006, 01:00
Can we have a drum roll, please...

MCNETT is now ON IT! God Bless him!!!

:supergrin:

Stay tuned, people...

Wulfenite
06-24-2006, 09:34
Dang! That's as good as done then.


Btw...so far so good on the new agrip. I think I got it stuck down good this time cause I used most of a can of brake pad cleaner getting the frame degreased. Its just extra special when its new and fuzzy.

Kaliburz
06-25-2006, 11:55
Originally posted by GroundedCLK
I know this thread is old but has it gone anywhere.

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/board/?topic=topic1&msg=972

But I thought the Boz round was pripatory.... how in the name of Earth did somone "make dies"....

$tinger
07-22-2006, 20:27
Is the .223XR still going to fire saboted bullets or will the case be necked?

MNShooter
09-17-2006, 17:19
Anything new happening?

Pinkerton
09-17-2006, 18:32
I'm still hopefully waiting!!

Pinkerton OUT!

TKM
09-17-2006, 19:52
Originally posted by Kaliburz
But I thought the Boz round was priapismic.... how in the name of Earth did somone "make dies"....



There, fixed it for you.:supergrin:

Kilgor
07-09-2007, 01:26
Well?

klmmicro
01-20-2008, 21:40
Well?

Rabbit Creek
01-28-2008, 23:53
Greetings all, I did this project back in the early 90s and the secret is to use 10mm Magnum brass which has a length of 1.250.

The longer brass gives room for the bottle neck and powder capacity.

I wrote it up on the olde AmmoLab forums and not long after, the Brits borrowed my idea.

dwebb210
03-01-2008, 20:12
Will the 1:15.75" twist of the 10mm Glock barrel be sufficient to stabilize
a 55 grain .223 bullet?

Sounds like a fun project.

I loaded sabots in a revolver a couple of years ago.

Shooting .44 and 9mm slugs from a S&W 500 magnum was a riot.

Virtually no recoil, but still good velocities.

(the best part about that was the sabots for a .50 caliber firearm are
readily available at any store that cators to muzzle loaders)

grendelbane
03-04-2008, 19:45
Will the 1:15.75" twist of the 10mm Glock barrel be sufficient to stabilize
a 55 grain .223 bullet?

I seriously doubt it. 1/12" would probably work. Not sure how the added length of the sabot, and its departure in flight are going to effect the stability of the bullet.

When fired from .308 type barrels, typically the twist rate is 1/10", or 1/12". I suspect about the same would be necessary for this application.

Not that I ever expect to see it gain widespread use.

poochg
12-10-2008, 13:39
RIP or has anyone made a 10 mm shoot a 223 bullet?

Ryantowry_81
02-05-2009, 01:48
this is actually an interesting thread. if i still had that jewelers lathe that is at my dad's house now i would have to try it myself with some custom machined sabbots. i would be real interested to see the numbers on it.

Keep us informed guys

twoblackbelts
05-09-2009, 00:07
Call your dad and ask him if he wants to sell the lathe, and I'll do it.:wavey:

MySiK26
06-05-2009, 09:56
update?

BOB_HOWARD_13
08-02-2009, 21:36
Well darn! I erad all the way through this thread from god knows when in 2000 to find that it ends with no results on the 8th page?? What needs to be done, I was so excited to get to the end and see what happened! I am so very dissapointed right now!

BOB_HOWARD_13
11-17-2009, 01:06
Still Nothing? What happened to the people that were "ON IT"?

G33
11-17-2009, 01:28
DOA.
:supergrin:

BOB_HOWARD_13
11-18-2009, 15:20
This is really a burr in my bum.

JTknives
02-28-2010, 17:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah, bleah, bleah, bleah, boz this, boz that, that ad is a bunch of crap.

...but, to better answer your question, it appears our guy who was to do his part has not been able to "do his part" (for whatever reason)... and so... we need to find someone who CAN...

We have not failed... yet! :supergrin:

...so... any relatively ambitious takers out there with the where-with-all to "follow thru" in making a sabot?

hay Tazz10m (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2037), I am a machinist and also reload for the 10mm. i started a thread about necking down a 10mm to 224 but heck i will try a sabot first. If you want to pass on the drawing i will bang some sabots out maybe as soon as tomorrow night depending how difficult your design is. the thing is our shop is lacking work right now so one of our 9 Axis mill/lath is sitting dormit which would be perfect for turning these puppy's out at an amazing speed.

BOB_HOWARD_13
03-24-2010, 17:18
Holy cow, Taz get back to this guy!!! Wooooot!

Kegs
04-02-2010, 21:17
Why do you guys want to go down to .223? Wouldn't a 6.5mm bullet be plenty fast and have better ballistics?

VN350X10
04-13-2010, 20:52
Kegs, have you ever looked at the published ballistics of the .224 Boz ?
Think semi-auto 221 Fireball !
Not that it's practical for most, but a very neat concept.

uncle albert

BOB_HOWARD_13
02-19-2011, 00:54
Please god do something with this!

appleseedgunsmith
05-19-2011, 07:50
I have a 1911 para frame pistol that I built in a custom caliber. Its a .30 mauser necked to .224. I called it .22-30 sbs. 45gr hornady bee bullets hit 2000fps from 6 inch bbl. Load is 9.5 gr hlilgun and cci 450 primer. 50kpsi+! The slide needed lightening, and I run 7lb rec spr. And 19 lb mainspring. But still only get 80% reliability. Function and misfires still bug me. Too much mass in the barrel because of that tiny hole instead of a big one. Primers neeed to be hard and thick. Also tried aa1680,vvn105,w296/h110,4227 and others. Cases made by annealing using a heatsink since they are too short to stand in water. First test gun was a t/c encore 20inch bbl. 2600 fps same loads! Pushed 35gr vmax to 3000 fps. Got maybe 1000 rds in rifle and 500 in pistol .........both fine. Did replace firing pins after some dragging and flame erosion/piercing w/early loads. Total cost w/r&d,parts,dies,reamer is above $5000.00

appleseedgunsmith
05-19-2011, 08:25
gun and cart dimen

poochg
05-19-2011, 11:20
Tazz......... Your Fired!!!

Tazz10m
01-03-2012, 21:14
Tazz......... Your Fired!!!

No... now you're tossed in the dungeon for not bringing this to my attention. Bad poochg, BAD.

Sorry, people, but i can't guess when and where this stuff gets posted. Learn to be squeaky wheels.

I'll get on this asap.

VN350X10
01-04-2012, 22:11
Might be time to go to a less-extreme case neckdown & use a sabot.
Just a thought.

uncle albert

Tazz10m
01-20-2012, 13:43
I've tried to contact this KTknives guy a couple of different ways and so far the guy seems to have disappeared.

The reason for going with a straight, standard, 10mm case that is not necked down is so that there is no need to buy a new barrel. Another advantage is that alternating rounds (.223XR, 10mm, .223XR, 10mm, etc.,) could be loaded in the same mag. And there are a bunch of other benefits as already discussed in this thread.

At any rate, this project is technically not all that difficult. All we really need is a good machinist. The sabots could actually be "production machined" out of Teflon rod... so technically, we really don't even need to have a plastic injection mold made and mold them in order to have them fairly cheaply. And, technically we don't want to make a mold until we get the sabot design dialed in right... so... it's back to machining. Also, if there is a sabot for another caliber that is already made for .223, which there is, (.308) we could conceivably start with a "go between" sabot to carry that sabot... (.400 -.308). But, again, it's likely back to machining because i don't think any such sabot already exists. I can't believe we don't have a machinist amongst us... or at least someone with a metal turning lathe.

arushus
01-21-2012, 12:14
I just googled JT knives, thinking maybe the guy owned a company with such a name, turns out there is! The contact email on the website is joe@jtknives.com...perhaps trying this email contact will work?

BOB_HOWARD_13
06-09-2012, 15:08
Thank god this has gone somewhere since I last checked in! I will start checking in more often. maybe every month instead of every 6.....

Aglifter
01-01-2013, 20:13
If someone wants to send me the designs, I can see if the machinist we use on a regular basis, can do it.

We have a good relationship with him.

BOB_HOWARD_13
01-30-2013, 21:01
for god sakes give him the specs!

BOB_HOWARD_13
03-18-2013, 21:55
the specs man! THE SPECS!

BOB_HOWARD_13
04-21-2013, 20:05
Idea: Lets all pitch in on a cheap 3d printer and make the damn things to see if it works, then when we have time to tinker with stuff we can worry about larger-scale production. anyone like this idea? I have been kicking it around in my head for a while, but haven't had a chance to log on here. The printer would not have to be that precise, as the prototypes could be hand-sanded if need be.

darthchicken
04-22-2013, 22:52
You don't even need to buy a 3d printer. If you can find somebody that can design what you want, you can just post it up on shapeways.com and buy straight from them. I don't know anything about 3d printing or design work, but I've seen some pretty crazy things from folks using this service

http://www.shapeways.com/create?li=home-create

Tazz10m
04-23-2013, 01:43
If someone wants to send me the designs, I can see if the machinist we use on a regular basis, can do it.

We have a good relationship with him.

People... i do not sit and monitor this thread. And, I never get any notices from GT that anyone has posted on this. Those who think they can help make this project happen need to at least pm me so i can be made aware. Better yet, call me:

Brooks 253-549-2866

Tazz10m
05-05-2013, 11:53
Development Update!

Ok, so i was sitting there staring at the .223XR drawings and all of a sudden something SO FREAKING OBVIOUS suddenly dawned on me... A POSSIBLE CHEAP AND EASY SOLUTION... so i contacted the guy who's dad makes the sabots for a bunch of other calibers.... and we had a really good talk... discussed a bunch of stuff... he loved the .223XR idea, but said he still didn't have anything ready made and that tooling would cost about $10,000... So i discussed my "cheap and simple" idea with him... and he said he had never thought of it! He also said that it might solve (i think it would solve) product need solutions some of his customers have been begging for (like the government)... So, i'm like; COOL!!! I told him that if he patents it to please put my name on the patent somewhere... and to call me if he needed help with it.

At any rate..... This is just way to simple, easy to make, and cheap to make to just sit around waiting for someone else to do, so i am going to do it myself. I just need to get a couple of fairly inexpensive tools and the material to make the sabot, etc., and get jiggie with it. We may have these soon... prototypes to test, anyway, and i think the prototypes will work from the git go... and... i also found a new plastics distributor that is LOCAL... so i'll call them Monday to find out what they have... :dancing:

Tazz10m
10-09-2013, 23:59
And on this day it was done...

The .223 XR is ALIVE...

It EXISTS...

It's REAL...

AND... at the moment, it weighs 95 grains with a 55 grain .223 bullet...

AND... don't tell anybody... but i made the sabot out of Teflon...:wow:

Shhhhhhhhh.....:zipmouth:

:dancing::banana::dancing:

Hey, anyone live near Tacoma with a chrono?

Trapped_in_Kali
10-10-2013, 07:35
:dancingbanana:

RWBlue
10-10-2013, 08:28
And on this day it was done...

The .223 XR is ALIVE...

It EXISTS...

It's REAL...

AND... at the moment, it weighs 95 grains with a 55 grain .223 bullet...

AND... don't tell anybody... but i made the sabot out of Teflon...:wow:

Shhhhhhhhh.....:zipmouth:

:dancing::banana::dancing:

Hey, anyone live near Tacoma with a chrono?

Photo please.

poochg
10-10-2013, 10:18
Well Tazz, it blows my mind that you could have gotten it to exist without working up loads with the feedback of a chronograph but we can leave that alone for the moment....

A couple of questions;

Did you have a case die made for it, if not how are you loading the cartridges to run thru a chrono?
What is the overall cartridge length?
Do you know the angle of the cartridge shoulder?
Who made your barrel and how long is it?
What is the loading data your using for the 55 grain bullet, ie; powder make and number of grains?
Are you crimpling the bullet?

Of course the lack of a picture, kinda predicts where this is going....however, the answers to the above, should help clear things up a bit and give us an idea of how you cobbled it. BTW, I have a chronograph, I wouldn't work up a standard 10mm load without one and to consider working up an experimental load without one; well, it would be laughable, if it wasn't so sad to think of risks a young mind would be exposed too.....

Ok Tazz redeem yourself, if you can!

_The_Shadow
10-10-2013, 10:56
Tazz, please send some samples to the Shadow! :whistling:

Or just post some pics before and after loaded and shot...:wavey:

Tazz10m
10-10-2013, 11:08
Who let poochg the dog out of the dungeon? Throw him back in... and toss in a little torture, while your at it..!

VN350X10
10-10-2013, 17:02
Tazz,
One quick, simple question.
Will your "simple solution" be commercially viable ?
If it can be made at a profit, it will LIVE !!

Been waiting for this for a while, & congratz !

uncle albert

poochg
10-10-2013, 17:44
You cant touch this dog, so forget about your beast master day dreams and show us the money!!!!

Tazz10m
10-10-2013, 18:05
Tazz,
One quick, simple question.
Will your "simple solution" be commercially viable ?
If it can be made at a profit, it will LIVE !!

Been waiting for this for a while, & congratz !

uncle albert

Yes, easily. Several ways to go about it, and i'm in talks with people right now about that. I'm not saying it's going to be all that cheap to start with, but if the fun of it all gets enough people going on it, the costs will go down and the profit will go up. Right now, each sabot is being made one at a time... and it ain't all that quick. But, considering how much fun i'm having, i don't care so much about the time...although, eventually time will become a huge consideration. PTFE is a bit on the expensive side, also... especially when we kick up to the better grades. The grade i'm using right now is kind of strange to machine, but, it works.

I'll have some pictures as soon as i can.

Hey, ya know how to make Teflon even slippery'r?

Get it soapy. :rofl::upeyes::dunno::whistling:

RWBlue
10-10-2013, 18:48
Yes, easily. Several ways to go about it, and i'm in talks with people right now about that.

You could of course load with trailboss. This should keep you in the safe zone, but I don't expect it will cycle and you will not be pushing it fast.

I would suggest using one of the computer programs. This should get you close. Then shoot over a chroni.

Be safe as you develop your loads.

As far as commercially viable, I don't think it will be. But then again I have a 300-221 and I never thought that there would be a blackout.

Taterhead
10-10-2013, 19:43
Neat project Tazz. Thanks for the update.

Photos please!!!

Tazz10m
10-10-2013, 20:48
You could of course load with trailboss. This should keep you in the safe zone, but I don't expect it will cycle and you will not be pushing it fast.

I would suggest using one of the computer programs. This should get you close. Then shoot over a chroni.

Be safe as you develop your loads.

As far as commercially viable, I don't think it will be. But then again I have a 300-221 and I never thought that there would be a blackout.

Load development is not that difficult because i am using PTFE for the sabot. PTFE is very soft and VERY slippery. The difficulty is not so much holding pressures back, but rather getting pressures UP. But i have some little tricks to do that and have already incorporated some of them, so, basically all i have to do is keep "turning the dial" until i get the pressures optimized.

The .223 XR now exists, but, there is a lot of "balancing" to be done before it's going to be optimized. I just have to play with it a bit and see what it does under different pressures, and i'm not just talking powder pressures. There are all sorts of crazy pressures going against this thing from literally every direction. As the pressures get up there we may find the sabot blowing past the bullet in the barrel and i'll have to dig back into my bag of tricks. I actually expect this to happen... so if it doesn't, i'll be really surprised.

Also, for the record, i've never seen anyone else use PTFE for a sabot... so this may be a first. But if anybody knows of or can find any PTFE sabots out there for anything, report it back here. Usually UHMW plastic is used.

VN350X10
10-10-2013, 20:52
With enough experience loading, it's easily possible to get within about 90-95% of top without danger, to gun or operator.
It's only that last 5% that really tends to get hairy.
Wish I was there to help Tazz, I think I could be of great assistance, even without my chrono.
Loading since 1973, 1 (ONE) KB, and it was due to a mfgr's. mis-print.
And uncle doesn't load "bunniefartz", not even for competition.

edit to add:
In all of my reloading & experimenting I have not seen PTFE used for sabots either, usually due to cost of tooling. Other plastics are far easier & cheaper to mold, & virtually all commercially available sabots are molded, for speed of production.

u.a.

Tazz10m
10-10-2013, 21:04
God Bless you, Uncle! NO bunniefartz! One might as well be shooting bunny cotton tails.

The difference that i'm trying to get across here with the pressures is the differences in materials used. Normally a bullet is lead, copper, or a combination of the two. But here the "bullet" is really kind of a soft plastic. And it's pretty much the slipperiest thing on the planet. It's not going to "lead up" the barrel, but rather lubricate it with each shot. I may even use a alloy that will probably clean and lube the barrel with each shot, as well as get the pressures and velocity up.

The suspense of all this is amazing... especially when holding it in your hand.

CHRONO TO DA TAZZMAN, STAT!!!

Gunna hav ta staht mix'n sum gella up heya sewn.

VN350X10
10-10-2013, 21:17
Tazz,
A suggestion. There's an industrial plastic that's possibly what you might need. It's commercial name is Tivar. It's available in 88 & 100 durometer that I've used, might be what you need/want. It's the same basic PTFE family, but not near as slippery.
Just a suggestion.

uncle

Tazz10m
10-10-2013, 21:27
Tazz,
A suggestion. There's an industrial plastic that's possibly what you might need. It's commercial name is Tivar. It's available in 88 & 100 durometer that I've used, might be what you need/want. It's the same basic PTFE family, but not near as slippery.
Just a suggestion.

uncle

Tivar, huh? Can't remember ever hearing of that. Where ya get'n that stuff?

VN350X10
10-10-2013, 21:37
We use it in industrial conveyers. I'll get data for you in a day or so, including suppliers that handle it.

uncle

Tazz10m
10-10-2013, 21:39
Tivar, huh? Can't remember ever hearing of that. Where ya get'n that stuff?

Oh, that's funny! Tivar is UHMW. Yeah, i've got loads of it. Sorry, no pun intended. (But i'll take it! :supergrin:).

UHMW is actually pretty slippery stuff and it's very strong. It's used in everything from 5 gal paint buckets to cutting boards. PTFE is quite similar, and looks and feels almost exactly the same. If you didn't know any better you would think a block of PTFE was UHMW if you held it in your hand. PTFE is MUCH more expensive, though... and for good reason... and those reasons are why i'm using it. (Sorry, don't want to give too much away to anyone who might be going to try to upstage us on this one. This is when all the "me too" copycat types come out of the woodwork ...thieves trying to steal others thunder.)

RWBlue
10-10-2013, 22:16
The difficulty is not so much holding pressures back, but rather getting pressures UP.

That is kind of what I am thinking. I have had misfires with 44mag and 45-70 when I was trying to load the wrong powders light. I changed powders and could go hotter and lighter.

Be safe.

As far as the sabot blowing by the bullet, I would suggest using a (I forget the term. It is the flat copper item lead bullet loaders sometimes use on the back of the bullet to reduce leading....)

I tired, I am going to bed. The term will hit me in the middle of the night and I will update this post.

Tazz10m
10-11-2013, 10:30
That is kind of what I am thinking. I have had misfires with 44mag and 45-70 when I was trying to load the wrong powders light. I changed powders and could go hotter and lighter.

Be safe.

As far as the sabot blowing by the bullet, I would suggest using a (I forget the term. It is the flat copper item lead bullet loaders sometimes use on the back of the bullet to reduce leading....)

I tired, I am going to bed. The term will hit me in the middle of the night and I will update this post.

Yup, it's called a "gas check"... and if i have to, i will use one... but right now i'm trying to reduce the overall weight and maintain the front to rear balance i've got going. I may have to use one, though, because there is also a possibility of the little bullet getting spit out and the sabot left behind in the barrel. There is also the possibility a gas check will improve the flight balance.

What would be REALLY cool is to photograph it coming out the barrel with the petals opening and the bullet separating from the sabot. That would be golden. Anybody got a high speed camera?

Tazz10m
10-12-2013, 15:47
With enough experience loading, it's easily possible to get within about 90-95% of top without danger, to gun or operator.
It's only that last 5% that really tends to get hairy.
Wish I was there to help Tazz, I think I could be of great assistance, even without my chrono.
Loading since 1973, 1 (ONE) KB, and it was due to a mfgr's. mis-print.
And uncle doesn't load "bunniefartz", not even for competition.

edit to add:
In all of my reloading & experimenting I have not seen PTFE used for sabots either, usually due to cost of tooling. Other plastics are far easier & cheaper to mold, & virtually all commercially available sabots are molded, for speed of production.

u.a.

I talked to the guy and his son that own the company that makes the sabots and they make all their sabots out of UHMW. They said they didn't even think of using PTFE. I also gave them the concept of a "double sabot". So that idea is now out-of-the-bag.

As for tooling; molding PTFE is essentially exactly the same as molding UHMW... but the PTFE is MUCH more expensive... and it's not quite as strong... but it handles MUCH higher temperatures.

I am machining these sabots out one at a time. The tooling is super easy. It's like machining butter. Each one takes just a few minutes to make. But i've got a couple friends that live very close by that are all into molding/casting, etc., so when the time comes to injection mold, no problem.

I was working on this project last night and i think i've pretty much got it nailed now. I figured out a SUPER "easy" "sabot base reinforcer"... and also what i think will be a much better sabot "petal" design, especially for strength, pressure, aerodynamics, and accuracy. So, as soon as i can get a chrono happening, the sooner i can refine the loads. Right now i can work up the loads without the chrono, but, i won't know what the velocity is.

Also, i haven't been able to find any .400 gas-checks (or there abouts). So, if you know of any, send me some direction. I can make gas-checks, but, i'd rather not reinvent the wheel trying to make them. I'm still not sure if i'll need them, but it would be nice to have a easy source if i do.

dm1906
10-12-2013, 16:48
......Also, i haven't been able to find any .400 gas-checks (or there abouts). So, if you know of any, send me some direction. I can make gas-checks, but, i'd rather not reinvent the wheel trying to make them. I'm still not sure if i'll need them, but it would be nice to have a easy source if i do.

I use .416 Hornady gas checks for .40/10mm. After annealing, they size down perfect.

That said, a good plastic sabot is as good as a copper check. If not, they wouldn't be any good in the calibers they are very popular. These include .22/.25 all the way up to full size field artillery, and the M1 Abrams 105 and 120mm (sending the DU tank killer). The heat and velocity doesn't seem to affect the performance of them in 12 ga. (I use Win. 3" XP3 at 2300 FPS), .30-06 shooting 40 gr. .223 at 4500 FPS, and a bunch in between, as well as .50 BP, in my experience. Be careful to not over-engineer such a simple concept.

VN350X10
10-12-2013, 16:59
Tazz, the idea of a "double sabot" was in use many years ago, in muzzle-loaders !
It was called the "Poly-Wad", molded to hold a round ball. It was double-ended so it could take the ball in either end, & the open end served as a gas-check

like this: )( , just deeper, I'm not real artistic on a computer & I don't do CAD.


uncle

RWBlue
10-12-2013, 19:11
Taz, there is a reason i have always thought this project should be with the 45ACP/Super. There are just so many components and guns avaliable.

Tazz10m
10-12-2013, 22:38
The reason for the possible desire for a copper gas check was not so much to seal the gasses, but rather to provide a much more solid base to push against the bottom of the sabot with. It allows for a thinner bottom, and that allows more space for powder. The sabot is already pretty long because the .223 55 grain bullet is relatively long. Also, with a boat tail .223 there is not complete support of the base unless i want to shape the sabot the same as the base of the bullet, which i don't, because i want to be able to use the same sabot for non-boat tail bullet designs. But, like i said, i also figured out how to support the base without using a gas-check. I just figure the gas-check might be needed to get the pressures even higher, and maybe even clean the barrel a bit, and it's a "base support" all at the same time.

As for the .416 gas-checks, i'm not sure they will still be small enough (diameter) because as we go deeper into the 10mm brass the brass thickens and the ID becomes <.400. The last thing i want to do is bulge the case. If the cartridge doesn't go fully into battery we could get a kB.

One thing, though, i know for certain; This is FUN!

Tazz10m
10-12-2013, 22:47
Tazz, the idea of a "double sabot" was in use many years ago, in muzzle-loaders !
It was called the "Poly-Wad", molded to hold a round ball. It was double-ended so it could take the ball in either end, & the open end served as a gas-check

like this: )( , just deeper, I'm not real artistic on a computer & I don't do CAD.


uncle

Very interesting... i didn't know that about the double sabot for muzzle loaders... but that is still a completely different kind of "double sabot" that i was referring to. What i was talking about is taking a .30 - .223 sabot and putting it in the .400 - .30 sabot (none available that i know of). When you fire both sabots peel away more or less at the same time. But, as a manufacturer, i've learned the value of having one part do the job instead of 2. Now, if i want to shoot, for instance, a .30 cal bullet out of my 10, i can just drill the hole for the bullet bigger. Simple.

Tazz10m
10-12-2013, 22:56
Taz, there is a reason i have always thought this project should be with the 45ACP/Super. There are just so many components and guns avaliable.

Yeah, but the whole idea was to be able to just use a stock 10mm barrel that one already has. 10mm also has higher capacity. Not only that, but the 10mm Glocks are technically a bit stronger as the metal is thicker.

The reason there are so many components for .45 is that people made them. So, we are going to make them so they can "exist" so we and everybody can have them. Got to start somewhere. Also, i don't think there are any sabots for .45 - .223... so we would have to make a sabot anyway.

Also, we are not doing this because it is easy.... we are doing it because it is har... FUN! Plus, WE get to be the first! :supergrin:

Oh, and it also helps promote the 10mm. And as your president, i think i have at least a little responsibility to do that.