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LexaDoig
08-09-2004, 21:18
Hey guys It's great to see good Philippine-related threads here so I decided to join in ;f I'm new to guns and I'm planning to get one soon... I don't wanna spend too much though...

My choices have boiled to these:

-Bersa Thunder 380
-FEG PPK clone
-Norinco Model 59 in 380 (makarov clone)
-Daewoo DP51
-FEG or Arcus hipower clone

The Bersa in blue is 17k at Hahn, they have stock, I just called them now.

Can you help me with the prices of those other pieces? I'm in the province, and the shops I've called don't seem to carry those...

Thanks!



PS Tuloy ba gunshow sa Megamall sa November???

batangueno
08-09-2004, 21:49
;F to the BOG.

My suggestion based on your list would be the Bersa Thunder 380. Horge, can explain further. :)

jundeleon
08-09-2004, 22:23
You did not mention the gun's intended use: carry or home defense or sporting purposes/competition.

For carry, the bersa 380 would be the ideal choice among the guns you listed. Its light concealable and easy to shoot. The caliber is a respectable self defense round.

For home defense and occassional range sessions, I think there are better choices for your budget. An armscor/RIA/Norinco 1911 in 45acp is an example.

mikey177
08-09-2004, 22:29
About two months ago, the Daewoo DP51 was available at Urban Industrial Corp. in EDSA Shangri-la. I'm also in the province so I can't say if they have any right now, but you can try calling them at (02) 638-3255 or 632-1760.

Oh, and welcome to the BoG.

I second jundeleon's suggestion to identify the intended use of the gun before you narrow down your choices.

mc_oliver
08-09-2004, 22:34
For a carry gun, I'd suggest you spend a little more and get a 2nd hand glock 26 or a Taurus PT-111. The 9mm offers a lot more options for defensive purposes with better performance compared to the 380 in the same package. ;) But that's just me.

Btw, welcome to BOGs.

Hermo Gut
08-09-2004, 22:57
Lexadoig,

I'm also for the Bersa ,considering your list, but at that price range I would also consider buying a 1911A1 Norinco (Milspec).The latter has better stopping power (.45cal.), reliable out of the box, many options for customization, economical, and durable.Also, because of 1911's flat sides it's easily concealable.Just me.

Welcome to Band of Glockers.:)

Hermo Gut;)

9MX
08-09-2004, 22:59
for IPSC competitions:

Production: CZ85/75, Jericho, Glock 17/19
Standard: Armscor/CZ/STI/SVI

for carry: any of the glocks i guess

if you're all set on the bersa .380, just wait for gunshow part 2. PBD has them also, and they have better customer svc than Hahn, IMHO

jasonub
08-09-2004, 23:52
to keep it simple just get a armscor 1911 45 acp, it was selling at 9995 per pistol. maybe you can get the same price on the next gun show.

its a no brainer if budget dictates ill buy the armscor for home and carry weapon

cznayr
08-10-2004, 00:00
If you're interested in Armscor, I can help you acquire one.. No strings attached .. My kinakapatid is from Armscor, he could arrange for everything.. License is at 6,500.. i don't know if that's cheap.. but you don't worry about anything.. just provide the picture..

Alexii
08-10-2004, 00:32
Originally posted by jasonub
to keep it simple just get a armscor 1911 45 acp, it was selling at 9995 per pistol. maybe you can get the same price on the next gun show.

its a no brainer if budget dictates ill buy the armscor for home and carry weapon

I agree. It's almost a steal when you consider the price. Armscor must've made a killing last gun show.

casmot
08-10-2004, 00:41
I have a DP51 which a used to carry during the PTC days. I find it to be a very reliable pistol. It would fire any rounds even those rejected by a CZ or glock. The only problem with a DP51 is the availablity of spare parts. Even the manufacture "Daewoo Precision Industries" won't answer your inquiries about spare parts. ;1

deenoh
08-10-2004, 06:30
If you're considering getting a Norinco, you might want to try getting one from us at Weapons Systems Corporation :)

jundeleon
08-10-2004, 06:57
For a basic 1911, which is a better choice Norinco or Armscor?

LexaDoig
08-10-2004, 07:02
Thanks for the welcome ;c

Yeah I forgot to mention the intended purpose of the gun. It's gonna be for weekend plinking and car/home defense. I may also decide to carry it...

I'm not thinking about competition shooting yet. I've got my hands full already...

I've been PMing horge over at thehighroad.org. He's the reason the Bersa is on top of my list ;f

I'm having second thoughts about Armscor, they don't exactly have a reputation for reliability (very important). Gotta agree though that 10k for their 1911 is a steal! BTW does this 10k gun accept hicap mags? Can I shoot this on competitions? I might decide to get the Bersa now then get this 10k Armscor come gunshow on November...

@mikey177, I called up the number you posted, they do have the Daewoo DP51 @ 22k. Interesting... Thanks!

9MX
08-10-2004, 07:52
Originally posted by LexaDoig
Thanks for the welcome ;c

I'm having second thoughts about Armscor, they don't exactly have a reputation for reliability (very important). Gotta agree though that 10k for their 1911 is a steal! BTW does this 10k gun accept hicap mags? Can I shoot this on competitions? I might decide to get the Bersa now then get this 10k Armscor come gunshow on November...

@mikey177, I called up the number you posted, they do have the Daewoo DP51 @ 22k. Interesting... Thanks!

have the armscor tuned by a reputable gunsmith and it should be ok. i think there are several shooters who only had cosmetic mods on their 1911s and they use it to compete. as per mc_o, first internal part to be replaced is the sear.

i believe the 10k armscor pistol is a single stack unit. had it been a double stack, i probably would have bought one;f

julianz
08-10-2004, 12:48
Originally posted by batangueno
;F to the BOG.

My suggestion based on your list would be the Bersa Thunder 380. Horge, can explain further. :)

i second batangueno Bersa T 380 from your list or you might want to expand your list madame pang mas mahuhusay.

horge
08-10-2004, 16:15
Regarding the 1911 firesale (P9,999) at Armscor last Gun Show...

The 1911's priced at P9,999 were Charles Daly rejects (NOT overruns), with surface pits and shallow voids due to bad casting, or else scratches and dings due to mishandling. Some of these flaws can be very minor and difficult to see, and those are the ones you want. These sale pistols came with only one mag included. Still, that's around P7,000 less than normal retail, if you can eat the flaws.

The Armscor GI series 1911's still out for sale are said by many to be among the last of their line: I was told that the GI model is being phased out (no longer being manufactured as an 'Armscor'), in an attempt to eliminate redundancy/confusion with Twin Pines' RIA, and only because Armscor handles US marketing for Twin Pines.

Just what I've been told.
Maybe those with better sources can comment.
--------

1911 vs. Bersa Thunder 380?
Here's my take, based on only 1,100 rounds through my Thunder 380, and a mere 7-800 rounds though various rental 1911's, as well as some idle analysis. well... a lot of idle analysis
;)

The BERSA points faster and easier than a 1911. With less muzzle flip, it allows more rapid rate of effective fire. Double- and even triple-taps can be executed, on target. It transitions from target to target faster, and its lighter weight is probably less hernia-inducing than an all-steel 1911 carry piece. It has very simple construction and so long as the ammo isn't undercharged and you don't limpwrist, will run flawlessly for the first 200-300 rounds. Beyond that, cartridge grit can start to retard slide cycling, but then if you're in a defense situation that requires more than 200-300 rounds, you need to pray more than to spray. The BERSA is a cartridge-brand omnivore. Virtually any .380 cartridge will feed reliably, although the rounder profile bullets will probably save from any wear on the aluminium frame's ramp. Magazines pack 7 or 9 rounds. Ultimate life-span may be 15 to 20 thousand rounds.

The 1911 almost always tends to shoot low, but this can be overcome with sight-tweaking and practice. The recoil is more of a rearwards shove with muzzle rise, as opposed to the rearwards thwap of a low bore-axis blowback (such as the Bersa), making for more comfortable shooting over hundreds of rounds. The 1911 has more accessories available for customizing your gun, and almost any gunsmith is familiar with it. The ramp angle on any locking breech firearm is going to be steep, and this increases the chances of a stem-bind or other FTF. Magazines pack 7 or 8 rounds (hardcore enthusiasts point out that malfunctions increase in number with the 8-rounders). Ultimate life-span runs into the hundreds of thousands rounds.

The .45 ACP cartridge is probably the most effective man-stopping handgun cartridge out there. Any more power starts to take away too much controllability for me, excepting gas guns. To my mind the cartridge was made for war, to be carried by persons constantly looking to find and efficiently kill a known enemy.

The .380 ACP is more of a gentleman's caliber --compromising stopping power with controllability and concealability. It was made for peacetime, to be carried by persons constantly looking to avoid violence from unknown enemies.

Both cartridges were designed by John Moses Browning, designer as well of the 1911 pistol. Browning himself apparently considered both the .45 and the .380 excessive for civilian carry, and favored the .32 cartridge instead.

--------------

Go to PB Dionisio Firing Range and rent their Bersa Thunder 380 --apparently the only Thunder 380 for rent in Luzon. Rent their 1911 too. Shoot 100 rounds through each, at a silhouette at 4 meters, and judge.

I wager you'll find that you shoot tighter groups with the 1911, slowfire. You actually will get recognizable 'groups' with a 1911. A BERSA at first use, merely lets you keep your shots on the target, but minute differences between your trigger-pulls spell into a larger scatter of shots.

If you speed up your ROF during that first session, to the adrenal levels of a real-life, multiple-target situation, the BERSA will likely surpass the 1911 in terms of shots on-target over time (particularly because of transitioning). However, as good as that description might make the BERSA out to be, constant training will improve your skill with the 1911 a very long way, compared to how far you can improve with the BERSA, with its off-center trigger bar. I believe that if you invest the time, a 1911 becomes easier to use, control and transition than a Thunder 380.

I've thus far found NOTHING quite like a well-tuned 1911 trigger --less work to keep the muzzle from twitching during trigger pull, which is crucial towards marksmanship

My recommendation is to
get the Thunder 380 and a 1911.
That way everyone is happy ;)

JM2Pesos.



PS: At PB Dionisio Range, tell Ian what you're trying to do and she'll set you up right. Cute is one of the RO's there. Do NOT (I repeat, DO NOT) allow Cute to demonstrate the Pinoy-Mexican no-holster concealed-carry technique on any pistol you intend to handle afterwards.
;f

Eye Cutter
08-10-2004, 18:13
Originally posted by horge

PS: At PB Dionisio Range, tell Ian what you're trying to do and she'll set you up right. Cute is one of the RO's there. Do NOT (I repeat, DO NOT) allow Cute to demonstrate the Pinoy-Mexican no-holster concealed-carry technique on any pistol you intend to handle afterwards.
;f

;f ;f ;f

how much are the bersa .380's going for now?

batangueno is selling his browning hi-power and colt python, you should consider those 2 collectibles also

cznayr
08-10-2004, 19:24
I agree with eyecutter, consider the browning of batangueno ;)

revo
08-10-2004, 20:25
Although I don't reside in Pinas, my suggestion is to buy a gun
that you can easily get parts for.

Thus I vote for a 1911 Armscor of good quality.

batangueno
08-10-2004, 21:05
Yes, Eye Cutter and cznayr are right, you should consider batangueno's browning hi-power....hehe;f

jasonub
08-10-2004, 21:18
i shot a walther 380, hk p7 in 9mm, sig 220, sig 226, colt singlestack, armscor single stack, sti hi cap open, sti standard, various glocks wilson combat 45, various revolvers from 22 to 44 magnum, etc. owned a beretta 92fs,hkusp9 and hk usp 45, svi infinity standard pistol.
and so many rifles.

for defense ill go to the USP followed by the 1911. I had to finance my competition gun that serves as my self defense and home pistol so i sold a lot of my guns and got an sv in 40 cal.

that said if i had to buy another carry pistol it will be the usp 40.

my usp 9 shot 8000 rounds before selling it without problems, no jams or faiures whatsover. my usp 45 shot around 30000 rounds no jams or any failures whatsoever. almost as accurate as my svi.

given your choices i still will stick to the 1911. why, i can shoot a stock 1911 and do a sub 2 sec bill drill all a's on it and a 5 so and so sec el presidente with it and get good hits. thus transitions and recoil are not an issue. in my experience only. good luck

Hermo Gut
08-11-2004, 06:13
Jun ,

Just compare the material , try tapping the Norinco & Armscor's metal you'll know the difference. Also, ask any gunsmith and you'll know why. Even some of the other forum's pistol expert like 1911 Tuner ,Jim V , Brian Dover ,etc. will recommend this pistol at an instant. Norincos are way much easier to acquire here compared to the US.

I myself don't have any Norinco at the moment but I really wanted to have a couple of them. For a beginner & an expert, nothing beats the old ugly flat slab single stack 1911 , Glock is in close second.

Please don't get me wrong , I also love Armscor. I use their ammos by the hundreds. ;)

Hermo Gut:)

Valor1
08-11-2004, 09:01
If i were me, since both Norinco and Armscor are quite on the cheap side, I'll buy both. :) Or I'll buy the Norinco first and Armscor second. :) Then I'll buy the Glock...the Bersa...the CZ75...the HK...the Sigs. oops I forgot the first gun pa lang pala. I thought the first battery of guns;)

Armscor is highly recommended since it is made in the Phils. If you have any problems the service is easier to avail (including the parts).

mikey177
08-11-2004, 19:05
Valor1 made a good point: although we may start out with the intention of having "just one gun" to fulfill a variety of roles, most of us end up acquiring more firearms that excel in one particular role. For example, while a full-sized 1911 may be well-suited for home defense, there will be instances where you may want a smaller gun for concealed carry.

In the meantime, while you are still trying to decide on your first gun, here are some points to consider:

Carry Gun
- preferably lightweight, since you'll be lugging it around while you're out and about
- in the biggest caliber that you can shoot controllably
- with a small profile to aid in concealment under clothing
- high degree of reliability, even when exposed to all the lint and dirt that accumulates when carrying
- with adequate safety devices for your mode of carry

House Gun
- not necessarily lightweight, but not too heavy that it becomes unwieldy
- in a caliber suitable for your home environment, which minimizes the risk of overpenetration
- large enough to be gripped comfortably
- can be left loaded for long periods of time and still function on demand
- safeties must not be too intricate that they cannot be deactivated by feel in the dark or when rudely awakened

Just some random thoughts to further complicate your search :)

deenoh
08-12-2004, 05:56
For those who inquired about the Norinco 1911 models, wala na talagang stock. Sorry.

antediluvianist
08-12-2004, 08:35
Lexadoig, it has often been said that a person getting a first gun should get a revolver. Not in your list, but a used Smith&Wesson Model 10 - a classic revolver in .38 special, a cartridge which is arguably better than a .380, which you are considering - is being sold at Twin Pines for P17,000 (last time I looked, last month.) I believe they are from the HK policeforce, but not sure. These were standard cop firearms for many years.

Revolvers hold fewer rounds than a semi-auto but most CIVILIAN gunfights are over in 3 shots. And of course there are "speedloaders" for revolvers, like what Dirty Harry used in his movies- for most people not as fast as a magazine change but fast enough.

Revolvers = you point and shoot. No manual safety, grip safety, trigger safety, magazine release button, slide release button; no slide, no bushing (1911); no limpwristing possible, like with a semi-auto; you can keep it loaded indefinitely, and no springs are in tension, no magazine spring to worry about, no recoil spring; and if it doesn't go bang! then just pull the trigger again - the feed mechanism is not dependent on round ignition; and, there is no problem with non-round nose bullets/hollow-point bullets not feeding correctly(wait till that happens to you in an Armscor or some other semi-auto.) At 3 am in the morning, awakened from a deep sleep by an intruder in the house, you will not want all the complications of a semiauto.

Or, for a similar amount of money you could get a Ttaurus .357, out of which you could also fire .38 and/or .,38 +P . Just a bit more money and you can get a Taurus 7-shooter (model 607) or 8-shooter (model 608), which is as good as the capacity of a 1911 (7 in the mag and 1 in the chamber IF you really want to). Good luck.

vega
08-12-2004, 08:51
Originally posted by antediluvianist
Revolvers hold fewer rounds than a semi-auto but most CIVILIAN gunfights are over in 3 shots.
What do you mean 3 rounds? We were taught to empty the magazine and when still in doubt, reload and shoot again.;)

vega

Valor1
08-12-2004, 10:04
Originally posted by vega
What do you mean 3 rounds? We were taught to empty the magazine and when still in doubt, reload and shoot again.;)

vega

Yup. As what Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch said," Shoot the bad guy until he rans away or until your clip is empty and then reload again and keep on shooting until the threat goes away." :)

vega
08-12-2004, 10:30
double post...

Saruman
08-12-2004, 16:41
spend a little more now and save yourself money later on.. get a glock in any caliber and you won't go wrong with all your intended purpose.. just get the standard or compact sized models to meet your need.. may it be weekend plinking or carry pistol and even occasional shooting competitions, a glock 17 or 19 would serve you well.. this is just me.. sayang kasi doble lakad ng papel and buying another when you find out that you want something more..;) ;)

deenoh
08-12-2004, 17:43
Sir Saruman, I completely agree with your opinion.

horge
08-12-2004, 18:17
Well, there you have it.

- Getting a 1911
- Getting a Bersa Thunder 380
- Getting a 1911 and a Bersa Thunder 380
- Getting batangueno's Browning HP
- Getting a revolver
- Getting a Glock


Whos says we BoG's can't all agree?
;f ;f ;f

cznayr
08-12-2004, 19:04
Well, there you have it.

- Getting a 1911
- Getting a Bersa Thunder 380
- Getting a 1911 and a Bersa Thunder 380
- Getting batangueno's Browning HP
- Getting a revolver
- Getting a Glock


Whos says we BoG's can't all agree?



horge you can add, getting all the items in the list ;f

antediluvianist
08-12-2004, 20:07
Well, according to the statistics quoted in gun forums, the average number of shots fired in a civilian gunfight is 2 - 3. The matter has been resolved, one way or the other, by then.

cznayr
08-12-2004, 20:10
Originally posted by antediluvianist
Well, according to the statistics quoted in gun forums, the average number of shots fired in a civilian gunfight is 2 - 3. The matter has been resolved, one way or the other, by then.

In most cases usually two to three shots except here in the Philippines where there are jaworski types.. hehe

But I agree with ante, basta di ka mike 2-3 shots lang... ;)

jasonub
08-12-2004, 21:11
Originally posted by Valor1
Yup. As what Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch said," Shoot the bad guy until he rans away or until your clip is empty and then reload again and keep on shooting until the threat goes away." :)


talk about overkill. lets see. my svi holds on my house mag a 140mm tube, 19 rounds of hornady 180 gr hollow points going at 1150 fps. now when i reload it will be 17 rounds of my competition ammo which will be a 180 gr lead tc going at 975 fps.

if i just put 1 mag into the guy and miss the other mag, do you think he will still be trying to fight?;P ;P ;P ;f ;f ;f

horge
08-13-2004, 02:51
Hmmmm
^8 ^8

Originally posted by Valor1
Yup. As what Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch said, "Shoot the bad guy until he rans away or until your clip is empty and then reload again and keep on shooting until the threat goes away."

Don't know who Clint Smith is, or the local context of his wisdom.

Within MY local context, I always assumed to run failure (2 COM, 1 in the noggin), and anticipate additional targets on exfil. Kinda hard to do the latter part if I'm busy hosing. Very rare to be assaulted by a single opponent these days, or by all of the bunch at the same time.

It's likely Clint is merely using humorous exaggeration to make a point: that you ensure a STOP. I just think it can be a quality, rather than a quantity issue.



horge

Evan N. Payawal
08-13-2004, 03:57
Originally posted by mc_oliver
For a carry gun, I'd suggest you spend a little more and get a 2nd hand glock 26 or a Taurus PT-111. The 9mm offers a lot more options for defensive purposes with better performance compared to the 380 in the same package. ;) But that's just me.

Btw, welcome to BOGs.

Have read a lot of bad stuff about the Taurus PT-111 on the web, specifically the posted claims of some (complete with photos) that the pins on the frame of the PT-111 break before 1000 rounds, so the gun can actually break apart in your hand while you fire it. Is this true? Even the PT-145 has been claimed to fracture its polymer frmae at about 400 rounds.

New_comer
08-13-2004, 05:01
Originally posted by LexaDoig
Thanks for the welcome ;c

Yeah I forgot to mention the intended purpose of the gun. It's gonna be for weekend plinking and car/home defense. I may also decide to carry it...

I'm not thinking about competition shooting yet. I've got my hands full already...

I've been PMing horge over at thehighroad.org. He's the reason the Bersa is on top of my list ;f

I'm having second thoughts about Armscor, they don't exactly have a reputation for reliability (very important). Gotta agree though that 10k for their 1911 is a steal! BTW does this 10k gun accept hicap mags? Can I shoot this on competitions? I might decide to get the Bersa now then get this 10k Armscor come gunshow on November...

@mikey177, I called up the number you posted, they do have the Daewoo DP51 @ 22k. Interesting... Thanks!

Seems like you're looking for an all-purpose gun for SD/HD, carry, plinking, competition...

Competition discounts any of the 380acp guns on your list, unfortunately including the sexy Bersa.

That leaves the Hi-power clones in FEG and Arcus, and the DP51, all of which are 9mm guns.

For carry purposes, however, the all steel hi-power clones are on the heavy side, so that leaves the alloy DP51, but was claimed earlier to be poorly supported as regards parts availability...

Then you have NONE. ;)

Which brings us back to the basic question that ante noted: how are you with guns? Any previous experiences? If none at all, consider a good revolver in 38 spl. If you plan to join a gunclub, get a 357 magnum in S&W (not cheap), or Taurus (affordable). Why a revolver? Easy to use, load, and check if loaded, compared to a semi; which makes it less prone to AD's. Well, others can add to this...

If in case you are at ease with semis, consider the affordable wondernines, like the Beretta-clones of Taurus (alloy), PT-92 and PT917 are tough as they come. Fuhget about the polymer Tauri. The 917 is small enough to be carried, w/ a 17 rd capacity.

Armscor and Norinco are cheap but rather heavy. Norinco is very UGLY IMHO, with a lot of machine marks and imperfect fittings, but of very good forged steel construction. If you want tough, there you have it. Armscor comes in 17 shot 9mm, which I remember having read to be easily convertible to the larger calibers should you desire so later...

I don't see the point of going single stack with the proliferation of 13-15 rounders in 40SW and 45acp. If you imagine yourself playing in IPSC, a 40 in 1911 armscor is a great choice

Other mid-range options are the HS2000, Bernardelli, Jericho and maybe the CZ compacts.

If you want great saleability over time, consider the more expensive but extremely reliable semis in Glock (17, 19, 23), SIG and my favorite, HK USP. :cool:

Also, ignore those models with ports up top. They get dirty very easily.

Oh, and welcome to BOG's ;)

vega
08-13-2004, 06:16
Originally posted by antediluvianist
Well, according to the statistics quoted in gun forums, the average number of shots fired in a civilian gunfight is 2 - 3. The matter has been resolved, one way or the other, by then. Hey ante, I was kidding with you. Don't take it too seriously. I agree with 3 shoots. I just hope those shots will be coming from me. On the other hand, I would prefer no shots at all.

Going back to the issue, LexaDoig welcome to the forum!;c I have a few snitches with my Bersa before. It only likes factory load ammo and had FTF on reloads. Other than that it was a great pistol. Just like everyone else here, we need to start somewhere and after that the bug will bite you.

Either you start with Bersa today, I'm pretty sure you will want another one tomorrow. Goodluck with your search.

vega

casmot
08-13-2004, 08:02
Originally posted by New_comer
Also, ignore those models with ports up top. They get dirty very easily.

Oh, and welcome to BOG's ;)

Not only do they get dirty very easily but they are also very loud and you can get burned when you shoot it in a confined space.

LexaDoig
08-13-2004, 08:38
Great tips! Thanks everyone.

BTW I'm quite mechanically inclined so I'll probably not have problems operating autoloaders...

Valor1
08-13-2004, 09:26
You are right Horge. Clint Smith is really quite exaggerating and on a lighter side if engaged in a gunfight. Its just that he's trying to tell his students that if ever most gets involved in a gunfight, you won't have time to think. Your inital reaction is simply shoot the threat until you STOPPED him or he's down or he's running with his tails between his legs. If in the case, he doesn't do that and you are still alive in a gunfight and your gun runs empty, change mags and do it again. Shoot and shoot. If you ran out of ammo, better pray to the bullet fairy to drop a fresh magazine.

julianz
08-13-2004, 11:15
Originally posted by Evan N. Payawal
Have read a lot of bad stuff about the Taurus PT-111 on the web, specifically the posted claims of some (complete with photos) that the pins on the frame of the PT-111 break before 1000 rounds, so the gun can actually break apart in your hand while you fire it. Is this true? Even the PT-145 has been claimed to fracture its polymer frmae at about 400 rounds.


well i will find out when i get back , i have a PT111 mil ti 250 rounds fmj 50 rounds hollows no signs of pin break, the only thing i can say about the PT111 is that its to difficult to reassemble .

vega
08-13-2004, 13:41
Have read a lot of bad stuff about the Taurus PT-111 on the web
I read somewhere that Taurus resolved this problem.
Also Gun Test gave a thumbs-up on PT111.
http://www.gun-tests.com/pub/13_3/features/4692-1.html

vega

horge
08-13-2004, 15:39
Yes, but the Taurus models for sale here are usually older problem-prone ones.
You can tell by the grip moulding.

antediluvianist
08-13-2004, 18:05
Originally posted by antediluvianist
Well, according to the statistics quoted in gun forums, the average number of shots fired in a civilian gunfight is 2 - 3. The matter has been resolved, one way or the other, by then.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey ante, I was kidding with you. Don't take it too seriously. I agree with 3 shoots. I just hope those shots will be coming from me. On the other hand, I would prefer no shots at all.

OK. I'm not "offended" at all. Just couldn't tell if you were serious or not about the "reload and keep firing into the guy" thing. Of course, for some people - certain politicians come to mind - making sure they're absolutely, excessively, dead would be a good idea.

Hermo Gut
08-13-2004, 23:53
I agree with New Comer ,the Norinco 1911A1 is really ugly (tool marks ,fittings ,etc.) but when it shoots it's as beautiful as most 50T pesos worth pistol. I know , I have about a dozen of those (HK,Walther,Para ,Colt etc.) and Norinco is not far behind in terms of accuracy ,durability & reliability.;)

However , in terms of saleability ,reliability & "aesthetics" go with New Comer's advice on Glock, SIG ,& HK .;)

mc_oliver
08-14-2004, 07:48
I was aware of the PT-945 frame-cracking problem but not in the PT-111. An officemate had one and the trigger was long and bad but not horrible. ;f

It didn't choke on any of the ammo we've tried, from the armscor fmj's to the corbon 115's. I don't think the round count reached 1k, though. The grip wasn't very conducive to high round count shooting.

The ones I'm seeing in Trust Trade looks slightly different (and more expensive) which leads me to think baka upgraded na rin yung mga models.

Nothing against the Bersa, I just prefer the 9 for carry...ahh, hehe, that's coming from a guy who keeps a "vintage 380" handy. ;);f

Alexii
08-15-2004, 08:22
Originally posted by horge
Don't know who Clint Smith is, or the local context of his wisdom.

Same guy who said, "Always cheat, always win". He's a tactics guru who runs the arguably best tactics-based shooting school in the US, Thunder Ranch.

julianz
08-15-2004, 08:50
(Originally posted by mc_oliver)
The ones I'm seeing in Trust Trade looks slightly different (and more expensive) which leads me to think baka upgraded na rin yung mga models.

Sir Mc
I guess you are referring to the PT111 Millenium Titanium ,more expensive than the regular PT111 or the 24/7 with Tac rail and may police model pa on display the last time i checked.

vega
08-15-2004, 09:10
LexaDoig - My brother sent me an email. The Bersa is a keeper. I'm glad he changed his mind.

vega

mc_oliver
08-15-2004, 20:35
Originally posted by julianz
Sir Mc
I guess you are referring to the PT111 Millenium Titanium ,more expensive than the regular PT111 or the 24/7 with Tac rail and may police model pa on display the last time i checked.

Thanks for the info dre. With their pricing, I think a 2nd hand glock 26 is a practical option for me. Na putok ko yung G26 ni Dino last week, nagulo na naman mundo ko...hehe ;f

LexaDoig
08-15-2004, 22:36
LexaDoig - My brother sent me an email. The Bersa is a keeper. I'm glad he changed his mind.

Yeah I was texting him the other day.

Tnx.

vega
08-22-2004, 18:43
LexaDoig - So which one have you decided?

vega

LexaDoig
08-22-2004, 21:41
vega, I haven't really decided yet... I might go to manila tomorrow to look around...

deenoh
08-22-2004, 21:51
Originally posted by mc_oliver
Thanks for the info dre. With their pricing, I think a 2nd hand glock 26 is a practical option for me. Na putok ko yung G26 ni Dino last week, nagulo na naman mundo ko...hehe ;f

Mc_O,

Its time to join the fold uli ;f ;f ;f

flyboy 1
08-23-2004, 05:22
...

Valor1
08-23-2004, 05:36
Alam nyo, pagkaganda talga ng Glock 26 na iyan. Napakasarap ibaril. Napaka-versatile. Lagyan mo ng A&G grip extender tapos gamit ka ng G19 or G 17 mags grabe na pagka-high cap mo. Gusto mo ikabit mo extra barrel ng G19 extended gun ka na kaagad. pagka-cute at dali pang itago. SArap pa iputok. Lagay mo sa ankle holster pasok ka na kahit saaan na hindi halata. Gusto mo sa bulsa mo o sa bag ng Misis mo. Ang galing talaga.;)
http://www.hunt101.com/img/187903.jpg

LexaDoig
08-26-2004, 00:35
The Daewoo DP51 is available at Shooters Guns & Ammo Corp in Cubao. What can you say about this shop? Safe to buy from them?

What about Hahn? Is it safe to buy a Bersa from Hahn?

Saruman
08-26-2004, 07:54
Originally posted by Valor1
Alam nyo, pagkaganda talga ng Glock 26 na iyan. Napakasarap ibaril. Napaka-versatile. Lagyan mo ng A&G grip extender tapos gamit ka ng G19 or G 17 mags grabe na pagka-high cap mo. Gusto mo ikabit mo extra barrel ng G19 extended gun ka na kaagad. pagka-cute at dali pang itago. SArap pa iputok. Lagay mo sa ankle holster pasok ka na kahit saaan na hindi halata. Gusto mo sa bulsa mo o sa bag ng Misis mo. Ang galing talaga.;)
http://www.usgalco.com/Catalog/normal/DEEPCVR.jpg

medyo dinagdagan ko lang ng isa yung G26 + 1 = G27;f ;f nilagyan ng +2 ang mags, at nag kabit ng meps.. 10rnds ng .40 with the same dimension as the G26.. mas sure bet!!;) ;)

vega
08-26-2004, 08:09
Bersa from Hahn came from PB Dionisio. I got my Bersa from Hahn.

Don't know about the other store.

vega

LexaDoig
10-27-2004, 23:04
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/RonnieG-dp51a.jpg

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/RonnieG-dp51b.jpg


I was able to break-in my new gun yesterday. It went through 40 rounds of Armscor FMJ without a hitch, and all A's at that. I also rapid-fired fired 6 rounds of lead reloads without problems. I'm gonna shoot more this sunday...

It came out of Urban Industrial in 4 weeks and 2 days, not bad I suppose, but they didn't return my requirements as promised; they said I had to pay an additional 100 so they could "pull-out" my papers. They claimed that this was a new FED policy, just this october. ;Q

Anyway I'm quite satisfied with my new purchase. There were no major cosmetic flaws, no cracks, and no rust.

Thanks to everyone for the help. :cool:

mc_oliver
10-27-2004, 23:43
Si casmot used to use a daewoo for Production. Might want to PM him for some gun tips. ;)

New_comer
10-28-2004, 00:15
Congrats on your new purchase! :cool: Ganda daw performance nyan, meron kasi kumpare ko DP51. Kung di sya nakabili ng 40cal na HS2000, yan pa rin ang gamit nya sa competition.

Ngayon, dapat sinusubuan palagi yan ng bala para di sya iiyak sa gun case nya, para bagang tuta. Dapat hinihimas himas at kinakasa-kasa, para makilala ang Amo. ;)

batangueno
10-28-2004, 00:57
Nice gun and nice pictures. Congrats. ^c

Valor1
10-28-2004, 01:28
Conratulations! ganda nyan ah. mukhang okey ang ergonomics. balita ko matibay din daw yan. iyan ba iyong mayroong fast fire trigger ba tawag doon?

mc_oliver
10-28-2004, 01:30
hehe, tri-fire trigger. ;)

Valor1
10-28-2004, 02:37
Thanks Oliver. Ibig sabihin tri-fire as in three shots? he he he;)

batangueno
10-28-2004, 02:41
Originally posted by Valor1
Thanks Oliver. Ibig sabihin tri-fire as in three shots? he he he;) Puede yata SA, DA/SA or DAO. Pero hindi ko sure. :)

flyboy 1
10-28-2004, 02:46
...

deenoh
10-28-2004, 05:48
Hindi naman lahat sir. Yun mga guns lang ng BOGs na purchased from us are the ones I handle and dry fire without dummy rounds.

Eye Cutter
10-28-2004, 05:56
Casmot and Darwin uses the DP-51. Si casmot nga lang tinabi daewoo niya muna since he got his CZ-85B. I-research mo yung s&w pistol that uses standard 15 rd mags. Compatible yan sa dp-51. Yan lang ang kulang sa daewoo, mag capacity. Pero we were able to modify casmots mags to hold 15rds.

Alam ko din ang Daewoo DP-51 is a copy of Walther's P88 pistol. I'm not sure but the trigger action is excellent!

julianz
10-28-2004, 05:56
maganda , makinis at mukhang ambi safety pa ..magkano kuha mo Lexadoig?

LexaDoig
10-28-2004, 07:16
19.8k + licensing.

The manual calls it "fast action". The cocked hammer can be pushed forward but the mainspring is still compressed, and the trigger moves to forward position like it is in DA. When the trigger is pressed halfway the hammer flicks back to the rear then acts like SA. It has the trigger travel of DA but the weight of SA.

Does anyone know of real-world scenarios where this "fast action" would be useful? Aside from cheating at competitions (fake "hammer down") ;f

I've read that the S&W 59 mags do work but don't slide lock

horge
10-28-2004, 07:43
Wow. Very nice pistol!
Congratulations!

Eye Cutter
10-28-2004, 07:49
http://www.wapahani.com/walthp88.jpg

http://www.wapahani.com/w-p88c.jpg

darwin25
10-28-2004, 18:36
Originally posted by LexaDoig
19.8k + licensing.

The manual calls it "fast action". The cocked hammer can be pushed forward but the mainspring is still compressed, and the trigger moves to forward position like it is in DA. When the trigger is pressed halfway the hammer flicks back to the rear then acts like SA. It has the trigger travel of DA but the weight of SA.

Does anyone know of real-world scenarios where this "fast action" would be useful? Aside from cheating at competitions (fake "hammer down") ;f

I've read that the S&W 59 mags do work but don't slide lock

Yap, those S&W mags works with the DP51. The slide locks ok with mine. Medyo may contact lang yung upper part ng mag sa draw bar. Mine is a 17 rd Mec-gar. Gusto ko nga kikilin yung mag to remove some metal para mawala yung contact. I haven't tested it fully yet. Baka mamaya or bukas pag nagkita kami ni Alexxi to close the deal on his .22 magnum revolver.;f ;f . I already got a speed-loader for it;z

LexaDoig
10-31-2004, 18:59
I shot some more yesterday. The sights seem to be on (aimed at "A" and "B"):

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/RonnieG-ab.jpg


However, I got about 2 FTFs when shooting some conical flat-nose lead reloads. The soft lead nose seems to get snagged in the feed ramp. Should I use lead bullets of a different shape? There were no problems with FMJ.

ogiebb
10-31-2004, 20:17
Originally posted by LexaDoig
I shot some more yesterday. The sights seem to be on (aimed at "A" and "B"):

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/RonnieG-ab.jpg


However, I got about 2 FTFs when shooting some conical flat-nose lead reloads. The soft lead nose seems to get snagged in the feed ramp. Should I use lead bullets of a different shape? There were no problems with FMJ.


polish your feed ramp on an upward stroke using a 600 grit sand paper or cloth with Flitz just a few strokes will do.. this will at least eliminate a few of those feed ramp jams..the jams are probably because of the soft heads ...

LexaDoig
11-01-2004, 02:24
Here's the unpolished feed ramp:

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/RonnieG-ramp.jpg

ogiebb
11-01-2004, 05:57
yep still needs some more, medyo kita pa yung mga machine marks polish it to a mirror shine .its a personal thing my gunsmith always polishes all the guns he builds ..im not trying to be a smart ass ,just giving out suggestions..in the end bahala ka pa din sa gusto mo.

darwin25
11-02-2004, 16:50
Originally posted by darwin25
Yap, those S&W mags works with the DP51. The slide locks ok with mine. Medyo may contact lang yung upper part ng mag sa draw bar. Mine is a 17 rd Mec-gar. Gusto ko nga kikilin yung mag to remove some metal para mawala yung contact. I haven't tested it fully yet. Baka mamaya or bukas pag nagkita kami ni Alexxi to close the deal on his .22 magnum revolver.;f ;f . I already got a speed-loader for it;z

Solved the problem with my Mec-gar. I just removed some plastic in the inner panel of the right side grip where it makes contact with the drawbar. It now runs smooth with FMJs. I am yet to try it again with JHP's.

New_comer
11-02-2004, 17:35
Originally posted by darwin25
... Baka mamaya or bukas pag nagkita kami ni Alexxi to close the deal on his .22 magnum revolver.;f ;f . I already got a speed-loader for it;z

Hi, darwin,

San ka nakabili nyan? Balak kong iregalo sa erpats ko speedloader for his S&W 22magnum, pero bokya sa lahat ng shops sa MCS or elsewhere.

Thanks ;)

darwin25
11-02-2004, 18:52
Originally posted by New_comer
Hi, darwin,

San ka nakabili nyan? Balak kong iregalo sa erpats ko speedloader for his S&W 22magnum, pero bokya sa lahat ng shops sa MCS or elsewhere.

Thanks ;)

I bought it at Tools Trading sa 3rd floor Robinson's Fairview. Its a good resource for speedloaders. Ask the Model HKS-48K. They also have 9 shot speedloaders for the Taurus .22 LR and a lot of other hard to find speed loaders.