Lasers? Opinions

[TenMil]

Lasers are interesting.
They are loved by gun-newbies and the sort of firearms enthusiast who bases his selections on movies or pop culture, they are shunned by "middle-of-the-road" gun types beacuse they are so prevelant in popular culture, but there are a lot of very knowledgable enthusiasts and rag writers who love them.
I do too.

Anyone have opinions on lasers?

[charlie-xray]

I would really love to have one for my planned purchase of a CZ. Cost should be reasonable at least.

[Errick]

Originally posted by TenMil
[B]Lasers are interesting.
/B]

Personal CPL only.


I'd like to try them just for fun but because I'm not a Cop or active military or on an anti-terror unit my need is less than .01%.


They are not legal for IDPA which is my main practice field so they useless there.

I do quite well with fixed sights at IDPA distances 20 yards on down to near contact shooting and can do well enough out to 50 yards or so.

High priced toy for me.


:cool:

[beachside39]

I wear contact lenses for 20/20 distant vision but I can't focus up close without reading glasses. So, when sighting a handgun, I can't clearly see the sights and the target simultaneously.

Therefore, I have laser sights on two of my carry guns, a Glock 36 and 27. This allows me to quickly focus on the target without concern for the iron sights. Of course, lighting conditions can diminish effectiveness.

I would prefer to use the normal sights and will do so when possible but this offers an option that accommodates my visual handicap.

[Erich]

I just purchased CT grips for my SIG P-228 (they were on sale at Natchez) . . . they should get here tomorrow. I wanted something that would help with low-light close-range stuff, and when I talked to Ernest Langdon (who would know), he said good things about them.

[Dogbite]

Well, i dont like them.I guess they do have certain applications,and would help in low light/close range situations.I think the cool factor gets to a lot of new shooters,and they never learn sight picture,trigger control,and the basics of shooting.Thats my .02.

[Erich]

Well, since I was on the rifle and pistol teams in college 20 years ago and since I've shot steadily since then, I'm not too worried about my ability to shoot with sights. :)

[Tom P]

About 10 years ago I paid $100 + for one.....it is good indoors (like the gun show where I tried it out) and in low light, but is useless before sunset outdoors.

[WalterGA]

x

[digitspaw]

I have LaserMax on all three of my GLOCKs. Love 'em for mutiple reasons:

They are intimidating and might help diffuse a situation

They allow me to have better overall peripheral vision and I don't get a myopic view of my total threat

The LaserMax guide rod and spring is an improvement over the factory plastic guide rod

The only drawback is that they're worthless outdoors during daylight.

You can get them for $269-$299 on e bay.

[WalterGA]

x

[JohnK]

Well, despite Walters usual stuff, I find my Crimson Trace Laser grips SUPERB for my old eyes.

I (and my wife) frequently carry Smith 642's. We are both 61, and neither one of us can see the tiny sights worth a damn.

With the Crimson Trace sights, a pie plate at 25 yards is toast. If the batteries fail, I still have the skimpy sights.

Ther is also an invaluable addition; you can keep your eyes ON THE THREAT, and his hands, instead of covering the area with the barrel/sights.

I am also an NRA certified instructor in many areas. The Laser sight makes trigger control/sight instruction a few minute thing. It is SO intutive, the students grasp the concepts instantly. It doesn't hurt for us old farts that think we know everything too.

I find them useful after a bit of "off' time, to re-aquaint myself with proper trigger control.

Walter, take a shot of synthetic oil, and call me in the morning.

[federali]

I recently had an opportunity to shoot a Glock 19 with an internal laser sight--Crimson Trace, I think. I was impressed with its accuracy--absolutely dead on. It has been my experience that newbe gun users with marginal firearms skills would tend to use a laser as a crutch and thus not further develop their shooting skills while the skilled handgun user would not derive much benefit from a laser.

Proper training with a laser must include a malfunction drill. That is, instead of trying to find or see the laser dot when it doesn't instantly materialize, immediately go to the iron sights. I've seen too many people at ranges waste time trying to figure out where the dot is. Had it been an actual confrontation, theyda been shot fulla holes.

I also don't like the idea that you must separately turn on the sight by pushing on the disessembly bar, or whatever it's called. This is a fine motor skill and fine motor skills tend to fail during a hot situation. Except when in your own home, if you have time to turn on the laser, you probably have time to retreat, which is what the law will expect you to do if you're not an LEO.

[TenMil]

Originally posted by federali
Except when in your own home, if you have time to turn on the laser, you probably have time to retreat, which is what the law will expect you to do if you're not an LEO.

Maybe in your state, not in mine.
Castle Doctrine.
In FL, you are only obligated to make a reasonable attemtp at retreat when outside the home. When in the home, all bets are off for the poor bastard.

[federali]

All use of force laws are loaded with subjective phrases such as "reasonable." They're subject to interpretation and it is what the various attorneys can use in or to nail your butt to the cross. But, the point is well made: each gun user/carrier must be familiar with the laws of his own locality and state, together with wherever else he may carry a gun. I think we're starting to get into some thread drift.

[FullClip]

Have a cheap one clamped to the barrel of a Mossberg 500 with the Pachmyer pistol grip, and it makes sure hits on soda cans when firing from the hip as easy as pie. Maybe not a great defensive option, but wicked high in "cool factor" out at the gravel pit.;f
Thinking about getting the Crimson Trace grips for my Ultra-Carry, but don't like rubber grips as they tend to snag more on the cover shirt if carrying IWB.
Have to agree that in bright daylight, almost impossible to see the red dot, but don't think it would be a bad option.

[Erich]

Well, I ran out to the range yesterday with the CT grips on the 228. Pretty interesting. I sighted the gun in for 30' (I'll never use the laser beyond that).

First of all, I would never try to use the laser during the day. If I can see the sights, I'm using them.

However, the laser is a lot more precise than the factory Von Stavenhagen sights on the SIG. With the sights, bench-rested, I can do a one-hole 13-round that's perhaps two inches from outer edge to outer edge at 10 yards. With the laser, I can get every shot inside a 1"x1" square on a 100-yard sight-in target. Holy cow, it was astonishing.

I put the laser-gripped 228 on the nightstand now when I go to bed, together with the Surefire E2e. Who cares about intimidation of a burglar? I know for a fact that the round is going right where the red dot is.

[WalterGA]

x

[Erich]

I agree that the "intimidation factor" is something that one should not consider at all. If a person is not intimidated when he sees a pistol pointed at him . . . a dot's not likely to change his mind either. It's very likely that if I ever (God forbid) light a dot on someone, there's a bullet coming right behind it. I don't point guns at things I'm not going to shoot.

[wannacmyglock]

who cares who hates them. Do you buy the laser for you, or for somebody else? I love them for certain reasons, they have their time and place. Many don't want to rely on an electronic that may or may not work. I find my lasermax just as reliable as my glock, and I trust my life to my glock. Its nice to have in a high stress situation, especially if you have the tactical advantage of not being sited by the perp first. The intimidation factor is multiplied by the illustration of where the bullet will be going. Of course I choose to practice shot placement with my iron sites instead of the laser. I love mine.

[wannacmyglock]

Originally posted by federali
I also don't like the idea that you must separately turn on the sight by pushing on the disessembly bar, or whatever it's called. This is a fine motor skill and fine motor skills tend to fail during a hot situation. Except when in your own home, if you have time to turn on the laser, you probably have time to retreat, which is what the law will expect you to do if you're not an LEO.

I don't mind it at all, I actually love where the switch is placed. My finger isn't in the trigger guard untill I'm aiming. My index finger rests over the switch when its not inside the trigger guard so my opinion is its in a very convient location to turn on even during a stressful situation.

[WalterGA]

x

[bubbygator]

My signature shows my opinion of lasers.

[Erich]

There's no signature showing . . . do you have no opinion? :)

[DigitalMafia]

lasers...really neat...really expensive for the light/laser combo that I want for my glock..really useless in daylight...really ez to shoot some guy in the dark who has his on as they pretty much work both ways...but Walter hit it on the head with the cat comment-dead center.

Now if were talking about GIANT FREAK'IN LASERS!!! They are Evil~!:)
dm.

[fnfalman]

An infra-red laser coupled with night vision goggle would make a great sentry removal weapon. But then most of us are dreaming of being Rambos instead of truly stalking through the jungles of Indochina looking for Charlie. Nonetheless, the laser aimer makes your weapon appear to be very "tactical".

[Erich]

Makes for fast low-light point shooting. :cool:

[benatlexus]

Does anyone have an actual laser reccomendation other than Lasermax and crimson trace? Something that bolts on an AR or a glock rail??

Thanks,

Ben

[erickb1800]

I carry a Springfield Operator 1911, with a streamlight M6. For those not familiar with them, it is an integrated xenon light/laser combo. I agree with getting familiar with your gun, i.e. iron sights. I also agree with the intimidation factor, but only in certain situations. The laser would be a quick aiming device in a low light situation....I fully nitend on installing the laser guide rod in my glock 30 when i buy it next month. My experience with lasers has been a very favorable one....

[Crimson Trace]

I agree, You should always be able to sight and shoot a handgun without a laser. This new technology was never meant to replace your fixed sights, but to supplement them in difficult situations-like firing on the move or from awkward positions, defending yourself in close quarters, aiming in low light where iron sights are difficult to see, and any time that you're under stress. Under these kinds of conditions, our natural and automatic reaction is to focus on the threat, not the gun-sights.

Consider,

- Lightening Fast Target acquisition
You'll shoot faster and more precisely than you ever thought possible with a handgun. A good quaility laser with a clear, bright, long-lasting laser beam puts you on target at the speed of light.

- Repeatable Pinpoint Accuracy
Tack-driving accuracy time after time. The laser adjusts easily and holds point of aim through thousands of rounds of fire.

- Enhanced Field of Vision
Now you can confidently focus on the target instead of the gun-our natural reaction whenever we're under pressure.

- A Proven Powerful Deterrent
The powerful presence of a Laser in self defense and law enforcement encounters has frequently de-escalated the threat and eliminated the need to shoot.

- Enhanced Vision-Both eyes on your target. Eliminates "front sight tunnel vision".

- Extremely Effective in Low Light Situations-when you can't see your front sights well.

- Visual Training Tool-improves trigger control and accuracy


As for a laser for the AR-15, We are headed in that direction....

http://www.crimsontrace.com/images/product_images/ar-15.jpg

[Erich]

Hi CT,

Good to see you over here. I bought your 228 grips (as we discussed on PM over at TFL) and - as you can see up-thread - I'm pretty darn happy with them!

cheers, erich

[Skyhook]

you are vision-impaired enough to require the use of eyeglasses to see clearly across the room;
It's the middle of the night and you are awakened to find an intruder standing in your bedroom doorway;
You cannot afford the time to find and place your glasses upon your face, but with the laser, you can easily aim your defense weapon at the intruder and "take it from there".
Make sense? (By 'Intruder I mean intruder , not one of the kids, ok?)

I've been thinking of getting a couple of the Lasermax things me own self.

[D25]

Originally posted by Skyhook
you are vision-impaired enough to require the use of eyeglasses to see clearly across the room;
It's the middle of the night and you are awakened to find an intruder standing in your bedroom doorway;
You cannot afford the time to find and place your glasses upon your face, but with the laser, you can easily aim your defense weapon at the intruder and "take it from there".
Make sense? (By 'Intruder I mean intruder , not one of the kids, ok?)

I've been thinking of getting a couple of the Lasermax things me own self.

If you need eyeglasses to see across the room, and you don't have glasses on, you sure as hell don't need to be pointing a gun at anything. Know your target and what is beyond.

[Skyhook]

In the middle of the night, in my bedroom? Just know there will be some questions that need answering.
Besides, how many GTers are there who possess perfect eyesight or sleep with their glasses on?
Gimme the red dot and that'll do for now.... I think.

[Erich]

I actually possess (knock wood) perfect vision, but that's an angle I had never considered, Skyhook. I know Rule 4 and all that, but if a man and his elderly wife live alone and the man awakens to see a figure standing over his bed while he feels his longtime bride beside him . . . that bright red dot will look good!

[Short Cut]

My personal opinion is that they are of very limited benefit to your average CCW permit holder or on a HD pistol. I've used a Lasermax and the one biggest reason I don't use one is that they get a person in the habit of not seeing their sights.

[Stopdropnroll]

But, in a life or death situation, you are not looking at your sights...I believe, the average shooter will be unable to look at the sights. The shooter will have 100% of his/her attention looking at the preditor that is currently theating them.

I have had a chance to interview dozens of officers involved in shootings, not one could relay that he looked at his/her sights at the time of fired shot/shots...It was all index shooting...

The sympathetic nervous system is designed to focus on the threat. Lasers make sense in that you now have an aiming device on the threat you are looking at...all at the same distance you are already focused at.


SDnR ;)

[Alexit]

At the range I usually shoot during daytime so its hard to "get used to using the laser" but ocassionally I will be at an indoor range and I can practice with it.

I believe it is an effective training tool, I spend more time dry-firing with the laser on than off.

If I felt an intruder in the room, I would not hesitate to push the switch as it may give me that small advantage. Will I not use the irons, nope, I will still take my preferred stance, both eyes open and try not to fixate on the target, to be sure of what is going on around me.

I will use every advantage I can get...

[Skyhook]

Originally posted by Stopdropnroll
But, in a life or death situation, you are not looking at your sights...I believe, the average shooter will be unable to look at the sights. The shooter will have 100% of his/her attention looking at the preditor that is currently theating them.

I have had a chance to interview dozens of officers involved in shootings, not one could relay that he looked at his/her sights at the time of fired shot/shots...It was all index shooting...

The sympathetic nervous system is designed to focus on the threat. Lasers make sense in that you now have an aiming device on the threat you are looking at...all at the same distance you are already focused at.


SDnR ;) ^6

This agrees with just about everything I've read or experienced in stress fire situations.
Recall the admonitions of Front Sight, Front sight! when training? Well, that often is not enough and I think the little red dot would really help.

[Short Cut]

Originally posted by Stopdropnroll
But, in a life or death situation, you are not looking at your sights...I believe, the average shooter will be unable to look at the sights. The shooter will have 100% of his/her attention looking at the preditor that is currently theating them.

I have had a chance to interview dozens of officers involved in shootings, not one could relay that he looked at his/her sights at the time of fired shot/shots...It was all index shooting...

First please understand I'm not being arguemntative. I'd like to delve into a couple of your comments further.

If I've heard it once I've heard it a thousand times that one will fight as they train. I question if that statement is then largely incorrect as it relates to seeing one's sights? Possibly officers can't correctly recall such a small and comparitively insignificant fact as seeing their sights after being in a life threatening shooting? As an intuitive estimation it seems to me that neither would be 100% constant.

What do you think?

[Erich]

Yeah, I've seen it in print that the officers who hit when returning fire were much more likely to report having seen their sights. OTOH, I've talked to a world-class competitor/trainer whose seen videos of many of those shootings and who told me, "They might have said they saw their sights, but most of them couldn't have."

Hey, it seems like there are two schools of thought on this, and it seems like the currently ascendant (and more adamant) school says one should use one's sights. I don't really expect to be brought over to one side or another by anything written here (or elsewhere): both sides make intriguing points.

And it sure doesn't hurt me to practice shooting with my sights (I'm pretty adept) . . . and to occasionally practice shooting in low light with the laser alone. But y'all do what you feel comfortable with after you've thought it through for yourselves.

[SgtKabar]

It's probably not a bad idea to take a BG view of your laser. I have a LaserMax on my G19, and in a low-light encounter in my house I'm not concerned that he'll see the red dot on his chest or wherever. He probably is not going to look down, but if he's looking in my direction he's going to see the laser pulsing, and it's quite likely going to blind him if I aim at his head. I'm anticipating that the distance wouldn't be more than 20 feet, so that's a pretty easy two shot situation. In any case, he's going to be blinded first by my Elektrolumens TriStar Phazer LED (210 lumens - this is not a commercial), and if he can recover from that, he'll see the pulsing laser. As a test, I put the pistol (unloaded) on a table and turned on the laser, walked across the room and looked at the gun (not directly at the laser). It's very spooky. Any BG with a lick of sense will leave a cloud of dust like Wile E. Coyote's Roadrunner nemesis.

As an aside, practicing at an indoor range with the laser is an excellent way to deal with trigger pull issues. You can see the dot dancing on your target if you're having a squeezing problem, and two-eyed target acquisition is a wonderful thing, too.

[Weston]

I purchased a G22, internal laser, and external slide mounted light that I originally thought made sense for home defense late at night. I am perfectly satisfied with the pistol. And I would be equally happy with the laser/light had I the need for aggressor tactics using such devices.

I don't. In fact it turns out that I’m not particularly energized by the idea of painting a well-lighted sign on my chest reading “shoot me here!”

Other than that the laser comes in handy when pointing out distant objects and the light is just the right touch for working your way to the kitchen for that midnight snack.

That saleman saw me coming.

[SgtKabar]

Weston,

The Elektrolumens light is a hand held flashlight. I have an ancient G19 that doesn't have a rail, so the internal laser was a perfect solution. Sounds like you're in good shape, though, if the BG is raiding your refrigerator when your heading for that midnight snack.

[Weston]

I purchased an internal laser for my G22 after reading about and developing an appreciation for the effectiveness of low-light tactics. I like being effective. But as is sometimes the case it was only after I had actually purchased the thing that I learned a great deal more about the many, dangerous nuances to these tactics. Especially when operating alone and with family in close proximity to the engagement. And for some reason knowledgeable friends that I know to respect don’t enlighten me to my errors until after I make an idiot of myself, underscoring the painfully humorous aspect to your characterization of the typical laser consumer. Its me.

And so the laser sat for the past two years in the pistol, in the safe, and making for interesting conversation only. I had not intention of using it in a tactical situation, at least not without being supervised by a SWAT team on my side.

However, at the very recent recommendation of someone from Glock Talk I took the G22 with laser to the range to test whether it in-fact helps with trigger pull. I am confident with my aim at a deliberate pace but things get squirrelly under rapid fire.

Whoever gave me that advice, however, was right on the button. I wish I could remember who it was because I would like to thank him/her. I purchased a laser to aim at night. I will now use it to account and learn during the day. And for this I am, after a much doldrums, very satisfied with my purchase of a laser.

[Stopdropnroll]

Shortcut, I don't take you comments as arguementative, you are simply thinking for yourself ...drawing conclusions when "you" are convinced.

Every officer I have talked to demonstrated almost text book shooting behavior. One of those behaviors is "hyper-vigilance"...Each officer was able to provide outstanding detail about what he saw, citing the feeling that the event was playing out in slow motion visually. (frame by frame) They came up with great (visual) descriptions of details. Yet they deny almost all deny hearing the shots, sirens, partners coming up on them, verbal instructions, radio communications etc... "auditory exclusion"

During all this...most of them specifically remarked that they never looked at thier sights.

SDnR ;)

[agksimon]

I have shot competitively in the military and civilian life and am well acquainted with aimed and point shooting. I now have a Crimson Trace laser on my S&W 360PD and will never take it off, as I found it to be just as fast for getting on target as point shooting, but far more accurate. I still practice point shooting and aimed shooting, but neither can match that laser. I'm sold on it.
By the way, the one I have shows up reasonably well in daylight, as long as it's not an extremely bright day.

[Buzz_Hog]

Originally posted by Stopdropnroll
Shortcut, I don't take you comments as arguementative, you are simply thinking for yourself ...drawing conclusions when "you" are convinced.

Every officer I have talked to demonstrated almost text book shooting behavior. One of those behaviors is "hyper-vigilance"...Each officer was able to provide outstanding detail about what he saw, citing the feeling that the event was playing out in slow motion visually. (frame by frame) They came up with great (visual) descriptions of details. Yet they deny almost all deny hearing the shots, sirens, partners coming up on them, verbal instructions, radio communications etc... "auditory exclusion"

During all this...most of them specifically remarked that they never looked at thier sights.

SDnR ;)

Tactical reloading is taught to be done without eyeballing the weapon or magazine. Formally, the person is trained to maintain sight on the threat, informally, they are being trained to perform the action unhindered by the fact that natural course will not allow them to take their attention off the threat.

I agree with what Stopdropandroll is saying. Everyone will have the good intent of using sights and following procedures, but when your life is on the line in a defensive posture, more likely than not you will be firing your weapon at a target upon which you eyes have focus.

[Walter45Auto]

I like lasers. I'm gettin real itchy to hurry up and get lasergrips for my P90. They're great to have at night, but BE SURE YOU KEEP GOOD BATTERIES IN IT IF IT IS ON YOUR DEFENSE GUN!!! My Dad's batteries ran out in his Kimber's Laser Grips, we got them replaced, and now they work BETTER THAN WHEN THE GRIPS WERE NEW!!!!



;g

;8 ;I