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Valor1
08-20-2004, 21:30
Just a thought if you are going to be in a gunfight.

1)Get a gun with a marginal caliber.

You like those cute guns chambered for the .25 ACP, .22 LR and they really fit your pockets. You would even prefer your lady partner to pack them in their handbags because they are easy to shoot with. Who cares if they get attacked by thugs who are bigger than their husbands? Youíll even go for the derringers because they are easy to point and shoot. Your wife will definitely have the nerve to stand 3 feet away from her assailant right?

The 9mm, .40 S&@, .357 magnum, and .45 ACP? Well, they are outmoded. Get on with the times.

2)Buy a cheaper gun.

All guns will fire when you pull the trigger right? Why bother buying the more expensive HKís, Sigs, Glocks, etc.? Be smart and save all that money. Your not sure if youíll use them anyways. After all they are just brands.

The Jennings and company are the best value for money. I can buy three of these.

3)Trust only a truly modified weapon.

Your gun is nothing if you donít have them modified extensively. Most of the sidearms used in the military arenít modified right? Thatís why they donít trust it with their lives. Buy a gun and visit your gunsmith immediately. Get a wheel sized magwell before you insert your magazines. Install any adjustable sight immediately because your 10 round magazine will contain 10 different brands of ammunition. Change everything but the serial number. Then and only then can you go to a gunfight.

Make your gun very beautiful to join a gun beauty contest.

4)Economize on your holster or carry rig

Holsters are simply there to carry your guns. Why bother with its maximum availability and rapid accessibility? Just like your gun, you should be saving money on this one.

5)Buy cheap magazines

Just like your gun and holsters, why bother buying the quality brands? Who cares about their springs? Arenít they all made of steel? What about the followers? Well, they are just there. What about the bade pads? Do they all look the same right?

Youíve heard that one of the single causes of failure in an autopistol is the magazine. Still the most important thing is to save money. You can always buy them second hand. Why bother then?

6)Use the Ammo invented in somebodyís backyard.

You like those ammos that fire like shotguns with an effect of a slug. You like them so special that they have to labe lit ďDemon Slaying, Monster breathing, Monkey Eating Harry PotterĒ for maximum effectiveness. Who cares about the military who only uses ball ammo and still gets the job done?

Remember always save on cash. You can always drive a Kia Pride rather than a BMW. It is always the driverís skills in the long run that counts.

horge
08-20-2004, 22:17
Excellent points by Valor1, whom I respect very much.
However, I've seen those very points hijacked and subverted towards something other than optimal personal defense considerations.
I really do salute the points raised, and mean only well by the following rejoinder:

sarcasm warning, hehe

1)Get a gun with a BIG caliber.
Who cares if you might get better weapon control and higher rate of accurate fire with lighter calibers? What is important is that you use a caliber deemed macho by other manly men, especially those American manly men. After all, we don't want them looking down on our smaller errr... size. Compensate by getting something more robust! Make sure it's big so that it prints very clearly and therefore scares away would-be attackers from far away. You should be manly-man enough to haul that supersized double-chunk of steel everywhere.

The .32, .380, 9X18 Mak? Who cares if they can kill/stop, they acually require shot-placement to do their job --something manly cartridges don't need. After all we know that 9mm Parabellum, .357, .40S&W, .45 ACP, on up to .480 will kill just from the report alone.

2)Buy only EXPENSIVE guns.
It's utterly important to get a brand-name gun.
Because, we don't want to pack anything less than a manly-man's gun. We can't have our manly peers, most of all those American manly men, looking down on our poverty. Besides, we all know a gun's pricetag determines its reliablity, right? None of those $1,000 - $4,000 guns ever malfunction. Ever!

3)Trust only a factory, bone-stock weapon.
Afer all, if you're getting a manly-man, brand-name handgun, then it can't POSSIBLY ever fail to function perfectly as if tailored to you. Forget about slimmer grips or more visible sights for your smaller hands... Real manly men are what these guns are ergonomically designed for, and you're a manly man, aint'cha?

4)Spend HEAVILY on your holster or carry rig
Because we all know that it's the brandname and pricetag that counts.
Use your IPSC speed rig for CCW, because those are pretty expensive, and very manly. We all know that the price of a rig determines its effectiveness, so ...you HAVE to spend a lot,

5)Buy only EXPENSIVE magazines
Even if you find a reasonably-priced second hand set of mags, and even if you can test them sufficiently to show them reliable ---only brand-new mags can ever be used, because only brand-new, expensive magazines are 100% reliable. Actually, don't use THEM either, because then they'll become 'used', just like those second hand mags you shouldn't buy. Expensive, manly-man magazines have to cost money, and we all know the cost of a magazine determines its reliability.

6)Don't use the Ammo invented in somebodyís backyard.
Absolutely don't use anything invented in someone's backyard!
All that ammunition invented and refined in the backyards and garages of people like Vernon Speer, Joyce Hornady and John Nosler --it's all crap... well it WAS, until it became a manly-man brand-name and was mass-produced in a factory... but we're talking about invention, right? Something has to be invented in a spankin-new R&D facilty, run through ATK Thiokol's simulation software, to be worth a godd*mn.

:)


Again, Valor1's made excellent points (albeit backhandedly), on
not settling for any less than is needed get the job done.

I'm just being the sarcastic jacka**, backhandedly pointing out that the valid principles he's highlighted are easily corrupted into serving the peer-pressure, keeping-up-with-the-Joneses, brand-conscious, caliber-phallic, gun-snob immaturity that retards too many firearms owners. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Utterly. Grrrrrr....
;f

Not everyone is a size X in an X environment, and the firearm, caliber and rig that suits them and their situation best won't be what best suits another. What's important is to understand what you're trying to protect, and just exactly how much it's worth to you, in terms of money and time spent towards reliable, effective defense.



:)
horge

jasonub
08-21-2004, 05:36
if im going into a gunfight and i know ill be fighting, ill bring an m16;f

9MX
08-21-2004, 07:45
hayy..whatever your gun is, ensure that you regularly practice using it before taking it to a gunfight;)

Alexii
08-21-2004, 08:45
Here's my take on this:

1) Carry the biggest gun caliber you can control. Why restrict yourself to a mouse caliber when you can, with practice, hit consistently with major calibers? Hand strength and size as well as frequency of practice largely determine which caliber is suited to the individual. As Massad Ayoob says, anything worth blowing a hole in, is worth blowing a BIG hole in. Same guy who said, "Friends don't let friends carry mouse guns".

2) Buy handgun brands that have proven track records. This is what forums like Glocktalk, SigForum, HKPro and printed media are for-- to learn well-known problems, solutions, and idiosyncracies of every known brand. Sure, there are expensive handguns out there and a high price tag does not guarantee to the hilt of utmost reliability. But so does a lower price tag. If you compare a thousand mid-expensive pistols to a thousand rock-bottom specials, the value of going towards the more expensive route becomes self evident.

3) Modify to improve individual functionality. Let's face it. No one brand can suit everybody. Hence, the need to modify to enhance and/or improve functionality. A myriad of sights, grips, finish, are available to suit every fickle whim of every shooter out there. Whatever the twisted reason of that hombre next to us at the shooting range for using a modified handgun that resembles a faucet assembly is his business. So long as he does not endanger other people, I have no qualms with his property. His gun. His money. His business.

4) Choose a holster WISELY. A holster, regardless of purpose or price, must exhibit two characteristics: it allows a full firing grip and it covers the trigger guard. My experience tells me NEVER to scrimp on holsters. It is after all, the carrying platform of a lethal implement that needs to be kept under wraps and yet instantly available when needed.

5) Choose TESTED factory magazines and TESTED aftermarket mags. Key word here is tested. Even mags from the factory can be lemons. Choose not to take the manufacturers' word on their equipment. There should be personal validation of the user when equipment failure exacts life and grave personal harm as payment.

6) Choose the heaviest ammo available in a specific caliber. Debatable. But It makes sense to me personally. 230gr for the .45ACP and 147gr for the 9mm. Again, your choice, your life. Choose what you think feels good. Sometimes, how you feel about your equipment makes a lot of difference. Happens to me.

Just my two cents worth, folks. We have a wide choice today in equipment and implements. A very good thing if we know what we need and we can effectively distinguish between primo products and armchair adventurer items. Just make sure we don't lose sight of the fundamentals the guys who've been there and done that intend for us to learn by heart and mind.

Valor1
08-21-2004, 09:59
Thanks Horge. The points i raised are really starting points. I liked the points you presented also in a sarcastic way that I did.:)
Yup you got it right. When I thought about this thread I was thinking in the extreme. This was the case when money is not an object (like the feeling of having just won the lottery;f ).

Thinking about the points I raised and Horge's plus the one by Alexii, people would be afraid facing us in a gunfight.:cool:

Oh jason, try bringing your M16 to Jollibee or at the mall's parking lots, let's see the reaction. Oh, if I know I'm going to be in a gunfight, I'll bring aloong twelve fully armed men to do the job themselves while I'm in my car waiting. Or probably bring a bazooka. Peace man!;f

horge
08-21-2004, 16:21
if I know I'm going to be in a gunfight, I'll bring along twelve fully armed men to do the job themselves while I'm in my car waiting.
:cool: :cool: :cool:
Hehe..

bagito
08-22-2004, 02:33
Originally posted by Valor1

Oh jason, try bringing your M16 to Jollibee or at the mall's parking lots, let's see the reaction. Oh, if I know I'm going to be in a gunfight, I'll bring aloong twelve fully armed men to do the job themselves while I'm in my car waiting. Or probably bring a bazooka. Peace man!;f [/B]

;z ;z ;z ryan jaworski

jasonub
08-22-2004, 05:59
:) Im just happy since i got a new m16A2

Alexii
08-22-2004, 06:01
Originally posted by jasonub
:) Im just happy since i got a new m16A2

Hey, please post a pic or two. How much did you get it for?

jmy
08-22-2004, 09:02
Originally posted by Alexii
Here's my take on this:

1) Carry the biggest gun caliber you can control. Why restrict yourself to a mouse caliber when you can, with practice, hit consistently with major calibers? Hand strength and size as well as frequency of practice largely determine which caliber is suited to the individual. As Massad Ayoob says, anything worth blowing a hole in, is worth blowing a BIG hole in. Same guy who said, "Friends don't let friends carry mouse guns".

2) Buy handgun brands that have proven track records. This is what forums like Glocktalk, SigForum, HKPro and printed media are for-- to learn well-known problems, solutions, and idiosyncracies of every known brand. Sure, there are expensive handguns out there and a high price tag does not guarantee to the hilt of utmost reliability. But so does a lower price tag. If you compare a thousand mid-expensive pistols to a thousand rock-bottom specials, the value of going towards the more expensive route becomes self evident.

3) Modify to improve individual functionality. Let's face it. No one brand can suit everybody. Hence, the need to modify to enhance and/or improve functionality. A myriad of sights, grips, finish, are available to suit every fickle whim of every shooter out there. Whatever the twisted reason of that hombre next to us at the shooting range for using a modified handgun that resembles a faucet assembly is his business. So long as he does not endanger other people, I have no qualms with his property. His gun. His money. His business.

4) Choose a holster WISELY. A holster, regardless of purpose or price, must exhibit two characteristics: it allows a full firing grip and it covers the trigger guard. My experience tells me NEVER to scrimp on holsters. It is after all, the carrying platform of a lethal implement that needs to be kept under wraps and yet instantly available when needed.

5) Choose TESTED factory magazines and TESTED aftermarket mags. Key word here is tested. Even mags from the factory can be lemons. Choose not to take the manufacturers' word on their equipment. There should be personal validation of the user when equipment failure exacts life and grave personal harm as payment.

6) Choose the heaviest ammo available in a specific caliber. Debatable. But It makes sense to me personally. 230gr for the .45ACP and 147gr for the 9mm. Again, your choice, your life. Choose what you think feels good. Sometimes, how you feel about your equipment makes a lot of difference. Happens to me.

Just my two cents worth, folks. We have a wide choice today in equipment and implements. A very good thing if we know what we need and we can effectively distinguish between primo products and armchair adventurer items. Just make sure we don't lose sight of the fundamentals the guys who've been there and done that intend for us to learn by heart and mind.


DITTO.Also,for me,as far as handgun calibers go,I'll still choose the .45 ACP.Maybe,I'm too biased about the .45 ACP but with respect to all other handgun calibers,the .45 ACP has the most history behind it and the most proven.

jmy

vega
08-22-2004, 16:15
DITTO.Also,for me,as far as handgun calibers go,I'll still choose the .45 ACP.Maybe,I'm too biased about the .45 ACP but with respect to all other handgun calibers,the .45 ACP has the most history behind it and the most proven.
Didn't Col. Cooper said, the smallest caliber that one should bring to a gunfight should start with a "4"?

vega

JuDGe
08-22-2004, 17:08
Originally posted by vega
Didn't Col. Cooper said, the smallest caliber that one should bring to a gunfight should start with a "4"?

Yup!..... a ".40 Swift&Wicked" ;f

cznayr
08-22-2004, 18:32
yes, a 40.. ample stopping power and high capacity magazines.. ;)

vega
08-22-2004, 18:34
Actually, when he said that, the 40SW wasn't around yet. He meant 41, 44 and the 45.

vega

jasonub
08-22-2004, 19:47
Originally posted by Alexii
Hey, please post a pic or two. How much did you get it for?

ill post a pic as soon as i can. Oliver shot it yesterday

price? less than 50k:)

Alexii
08-22-2004, 21:16
Originally posted by vega
Didn't Col. Cooper said, the smallest caliber that one should bring to a gunfight should start with a "4"?

I'll feel adequately protected with a .357 revolver though.;)

9MX
08-22-2004, 21:20
Originally posted by jasonub
:) Im just happy since i got a new m16A2

baka you wan't to share your happiness, paputok naman:cool:

mc_oliver
08-22-2004, 22:20
Originally posted by vega
Didn't Col. Cooper said, the smallest caliber that one should bring to a gunfight should start with a "4"?

vega
I-round off mo yun .355, .4 na rin. ;f

Alexii
08-22-2004, 23:05
Originally posted by mc_oliver
I-round off mo yun .355, .4 na rin. ;f

E di mas okay pala .38 kaysa sa .357-- mas malapit sa 4. He he.

paltic
08-22-2004, 23:09
pareng jason,
kaya mo siguro ibenenta yung .22 airgun mo dahil may kukunin ka palang .223:cool: sana makahawak kaming lahat;f bushmaster ba na a2 or colt? 1/9 or 1/7 twist?........below 50k???;P ;P ;P bayaran ko sa iyo ng P 55k;)

jasonub
08-23-2004, 00:54
Originally posted by paltic
pareng jason,
kaya mo siguro ibenenta yung .22 airgun mo dahil may kukunin ka palang .223:cool: sana makahawak kaming lahat;f bushmaster ba na a2 or colt? 1/9 or 1/7 twist?........below 50k???;P ;P ;P bayaran ko sa iyo ng P 55k;)

elisco frame but colt na lahat. the twist is still for the 55 grain thus its 1/12. colt barrel a2 flash hider a2 upper receiver, a2 front sight, a2 but stock, a2 foregrips, a2 grip, bolt colt mp, lower internal parts fabrique national.

in pristine condition, barrel new, receiver upper and lower new, internals new. i love this rifle!

lf im going to sell it mga 60t;g but that is if im going to sell it. someoone is offering me a magpul but stock kayalang 25t;g

9mx, how much are armscor 5.56 mm rounds each and sure you can fire it.

9MX
08-23-2004, 05:41
Originally posted by jasonub

9mx, how much are armscor 5.56 mm rounds each and sure you can fire it.

will let you know tomorrow:)

Evan N. Payawal
08-23-2004, 19:02
Conquering your enemy without battle is the acme of a general's skill. In other words, NEVER go to any place where you KNOW there will be a gunfight. My firearm is the last option...always.

Valor1
08-23-2004, 19:07
Well, of course the best way to win in a gunfight is never to get involved in one. .

paltik45
08-23-2004, 23:18
Originally posted by Valor1
Well, of course the best way to win in a gunfight is never to get involved in one. .


Yup, I agree with that Sir and dont forget to follow the K.I.S.S. principles. (aka Keep It Simple S-2pyeed);f I've witnessed A real gunfight between a cop and a barangay Kapitan. The cop fired first his .38 rev hitting the Kapitan on the chest. Then the Kapitan drew and fired his .45 1911 hitting the cop in the chest. At the same time the cop fired his second shot with his .38spl rev. hitting the Brgy. Kap on the chest. They both fell on the ground at the same time. The cop was dead on the spot and the Kap. lived for a couple of hours at the hospital. The distance between the two gunfighters was about two yards. The cop was supposed to serve a warrant of arrest to the son of the Kapitan which was a known pusher/addict. It happened at around 11:30 AM in Laguna I am on my way to school that time when it happened.

Moral lesson: It doesn't need fancy gadget to win a gunfight its the skill and the knowledge to win it. During my practice as a physical therapist back home. I met and talked to a lot of people civilian and military thats been in a gunfight. Some of them had fractured bone from gunshot wound the least and "SPINAL CORD INJURY" the worst. I was surprised when I did the stats. on the "shots fired"......It was only 2(two). ;) So boys and girls always remember the K.I.S.S:)

paltik45
08-23-2004, 23:23
Oh..... by the way that incident made me a believer of the .45cal delivered by the trusted 1911.:cool: I can't settle for anything less than a KWATRO SINGKO amigo. :cool:

s.g
08-25-2004, 08:10
Thanks for sharing this incident, Paltik45.

:)

New_comer
08-25-2004, 08:18
Maybe the Kapitan was high on drugs too...

Suki ng anak ;)

dbp
08-25-2004, 09:34
Interesting post guys. I go with valor's view if there would be a gunfight, I'll bring along the rest of the guys. Like they say the more the merrier...;) he he . Congrats jasonub on your new AR pwede ka na magjoin sa IPSC rifle competition. Ok ang 55grn for standard rifle competitions but maybe in the future u cud get a 9 in 1 twist para makagamit ka ng 65 grn bullet for longer distances (ie 300+ meters) ;) Regards to all the BOGS;f

CarlosDJackal
08-25-2004, 15:46
If I knew I was getting into a gunfight and had no way of avoiding it, I'd carry around my 12 GA shotgun and my CAR-15 with my Glock 35 on my hip. ;f

I carry my Glock 23 with a single spare magazine everyday. But there are times when I can only carry my Kel Tec P-32 (which will soon be replaced by the .380). Do I feel undergunned? Not really, I know I can use that pocket rocket effectively enough that if I do my part, I should come out ahead.

Our mindset, tactics, and skill is a heck of a lot more important than the equipment we use. JM2CW.

bulm540
08-25-2004, 17:36
Originally posted by dbp
Interesting post guys. I go with valor's view if there would be a gunfight, I'll bring along the rest of the guys. Like they say the more the merrier...;) he he . Congrats jasonub on your new AR pwede ka na magjoin sa IPSC rifle competition. Ok ang 55grn for standard rifle competitions but maybe in the future u cud get a 9 in 1 twist para makagamit ka ng 65 grn bullet for longer distances (ie 300+ meters) ;) Regards to all the BOGS;f
Ahhh... , you mean 62 grains... if you can get hold of black hills they have 69 grains ammo.

julianz
08-26-2004, 07:55
got to get me one of those scatter guns pump action or auto loaders , if the enemy is behind cover ..grenade shall do the trick...

Saruman
08-26-2004, 08:02
Originally posted by CarlosDJackal
But there are times when I can only carry my Kel Tec P-32 (which will soon be replaced by the .380). Do I feel undergunned? Not really, I know I can use that pocket rocket effectively enough that if I do my part, I should come out ahead.

Our mindset, tactics, and skill is a heck of a lot more important than the equipment we use. JM2CW.

was looking for that P3AT Kel Tec here last gun show... too bad they don't have it here.. nice pocket blaster..:) :)