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Esox357
08-29-2004, 12:49
I need some exercises that will work my gluteus maximus to either tone or build muscle. I run and do stairs occasionally and lift heavy on legs but my glutes seem to be unaffected. Any suggestions? Thanks Esox357

Jaltered
08-29-2004, 13:05
Try step-ups. First without dumbells (or any other kind of weight) then with.

Use a study weight bench (or any other platform that requires you to bring your knee to almost a 90-degree angle when you step up. Do ten step-ups with your right leg doing the stepping, then do ten with your left leg doing the stepping.

Right leg dominant:
-R leg, step up
-L leg follows
-R leg, steps down
-L leg follows
***repeat***

Once you've done a set or two of that, if its not killing you, try adding 5-10 pounds of weight in each hand and continue. If you're stepping high enough, this will work your glutes quite well. Try to keep a moderate to fast stepping motion. Keep your back straight (think good posture), and don't swing your arms. Have fun, and tell me how it works out! :)

USPMAN
08-29-2004, 15:34
Deadlift. Learn the form first.

live-free-r-die
08-29-2004, 17:24
Stretch your hip flexors, they inhibit your glutes.

ateamer
08-29-2004, 19:11
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=4100&tid=51

Glute-ham raise. If you don't have access to a GHR bench, lay prone on the floor with your feet anchored under something and do "natural" GHRs. Natural GHRs are much tougher, so will need to use your hands for assistance.

California Jack
08-29-2004, 20:08
Esox,

When you say you lift heavy for the legs, what exactly do you do for them?

Do you squat? Do you deadlift?

Jack

git_r_dun0405
08-29-2004, 21:59
SQUATS.

Berto
08-30-2004, 04:27
Deadlifts,Squats.As previously said,get the form down first w/ lighter weights and drop that can!!!:)

Esox357
08-30-2004, 13:35
I do hip sled, smith machine, leg extension foward and back. I do the leg abductor and adductor. I lift alot of weight for the hip sled and moderate on the rest. Thanks for the info again. Esox357

Animal Mother
08-31-2004, 02:30
It would appear you already have gotten your answer, squat and deadlift. And stay away from the Smith Machine.

California Jack
08-31-2004, 06:12
As far as unsolicited advice goes, Animal is right on the money.


STAY AWAY FROM THE SMITH MACHINE.

thaddeus
09-02-2004, 00:00
Try lunges followed up by hi-rep back extensions on the roman chair until your muscles are wobbling. Squeeze your butt on the extentions. Your butt will feel like jello afterward and get hard as a rock.

Squats are awesome.

I have had great success on the Smith machine. I understand the arguments against using it, but without a partner it allows me to push myself to failure. Those last couple reps are the entire key to a good workout.

FreakyBig
09-02-2004, 18:37
Originally posted by California Jack
As far as unsolicited advice goes, Animal is right on the money.


STAY AWAY FROM THE SMITH MACHINE.

WTF is wrong with the Smith Machine???

The smith is an awesome piece of equipment. It allows you to maximize weight without having the concern of having to maintain form or putting undue stress on the lower back. If you prefer free weight squats, more power to you, but dont go telling people to stay away from the smith especially novice weight trainers.

As far as glute exercises, theres nothing better than lunges to hit the glutes. Just add them to a normal hamstring workout including:
stiff legged dead lifts, good mornings, and leg curls.

Berto
09-02-2004, 20:14
It allows you to maximize weight without having the concern of having to maintain form...

Fundamental no-no.Learn proper form,then gradually add weight.

That's what's wrong with the Smith Machine. :)

FreakyBig
09-02-2004, 20:38
I'm sorry if I was misunderstood. It does look that way after I have re-read it. In no way am I saying that the Smith replaces the need for proper form. You do still have to maintain proper form while using the smith machine. I can get a hell of a workout with 315 or 365 on a smith for reps doing 3/4 squats while some know it all next to me is loading up the free weights doing his 1/4 squats and feeling like he owns the gym.

I agree with your statement that the smith can keep someone from learning proper form, but seriously, how many people do you see in the gym using proper form on free weight squats doing at least a 1/2 squat.....very few. They are content with their 1/4 squats and keep adding weight before they can even do a set of full reps and then wonder why they see no growth in their quads.

Medpilot 2
09-02-2004, 21:45
To get very sore glutes

Nothing can beat lunges on a Smith machine.

Period.

Both feet slightly forward of the bar and step back with one foot to come down. Alternate both legs for about 10-20 reps on each leg.

Choose a weight that will allow you to come to failure on at the 10-20 rep range.

Guaranteed to work.

If you get good at using the Smith machine, you can advance the exercise using just dumbbells, but that's a lot more advanced.

Hydrilla
09-03-2004, 10:35
He's saying to stay away from the smith machine because it makes you have bad form, you go through a range of motion that isn't natural and can cause injury. Leg presses, smith machine exercises, etc won't build mass anywhere near as well as free weight squats and deadlifts. Period.

Originally posted by FreakyBig
WTF is wrong with the Smith Machine???

The smith is an awesome piece of equipment. It allows you to maximize weight without having the concern of having to maintain form or putting undue stress on the lower back. If you prefer free weight squats, more power to you, but dont go telling people to stay away from the smith especially novice weight trainers.

As far as glute exercises, theres nothing better than lunges to hit the glutes. Just add them to a normal hamstring workout including:
stiff legged dead lifts, good mornings, and leg curls.

California Jack
09-03-2004, 11:32
Hydrilla took the words out of my mouth. His range of motion statement hits the nail on the head.

Also, I think there is a commonly held belief that Smith Machines are dangerous and lead to injury.

I feel that especially novice trainers need to stay away from the Smith Machine. IMHO, I think telling novice trainers to use a Smith Machine is dangerous. This story is extreme and non-typical of Smith Machine injuries, but scary non the less....

http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/ClubIndustry/2003/09/01/277052

Thaddeus, about training sans partner. I train in my garage by myself. I spot my squats with saw horses, and have never been worried about pushing myself. In your gym, surely there is a power rack to squat in. Have you tried that? Though if you find the Smith comforting, what the heck.

Berto
09-03-2004, 18:55
Originally posted by FreakyBig
I'm sorry if I was misunderstood. It does look that way after I have re-read it. In no way am I saying that the Smith replaces the need for proper form. You do still have to maintain proper form while using the smith machine. I can get a hell of a workout with 315 or 365 on a smith for reps doing 3/4 squats while some know it all next to me is loading up the free weights doing his 1/4 squats and feeling like he owns the gym.

I agree with your statement that the smith can keep someone from learning proper form, but seriously, how many people do you see in the gym using proper form on free weight squats doing at least a 1/2 squat.....very few. They are content with their 1/4 squats and keep adding weight before they can even do a set of full reps and then wonder why they see no growth in their quads.

No worries on my end.:) Your observation on seeing improper form in the gym kinda prompted my response.The smith has it's benefits,but I'm always weary of seeing folks use it for heavy squats.
I messed with the Smith the other day as the the cage was "taken" by some yahoo doing three other excercises in addition.;Q I hate the rearward path you take as you lock out...I had to move my foot position inward to come close to decent form using it.I f you use free weight form you end up pushing against the path of movement more than actually moving the weight.It just feels all wrong.:(

live-free-r-die
09-03-2004, 19:14
Hey guys, look at it like this. A smith machine is like a gun rest, you can shoot great off it but it will never make you a better shot. Smith machines are great for looking cool in the gym but the re-enforce poor form and de-train the stabilizer muscles of the body.

California Jack
09-03-2004, 19:52
live free,

I agree 100%. I just want to add that Tudor Bompa, amongst others, says the linear tracking of the Smith is hard on the lower back and knees.
Jack:soap:

ProfMoriarty
10-02-2004, 21:52
Glutes: Compound exercise - Full squat
Isolation exercise- Kickbacks with ankle strap attached to
the low cable on a pulldown machine.

thaddeus
10-20-2004, 00:24
Originally posted by California Jack

Thaddeus, about training sans partner. I train in my garage by myself. I spot my squats with saw horses, and have never been worried about pushing myself. In your gym, surely there is a power rack to squat in. Have you tried that? Though if you find the Smith comforting, what the heck.

I was thinking of bench presses actually. I can really push myself on the Smith machine with more weight, to total failure even on negative reps.
By myself, a bench press workout is seriously lacking.

Blaster
11-16-2004, 18:37
I'm proud to say that I have spent countless hours in the gym over many years and NEVER once have I used the Smith Machine.

There is nothing like the Squat. It's a basic exercise that must been done if your serious about leg development and overall strength.

Medpilot 2
11-17-2004, 03:57
I can't believe what I'm reading. Everyone that is saying the Smith Machine is bad because it forces you to use "bad form".

Okay, can someone explain why the Smith "forces" a person to have bad form?

I can demonstrate bad form on any machine. To say that good form on a Smith Machine is impossible sounds a little ignorant to me. It's a bar that goes straight up and down. How a person position their body while using the Smith is entirely up is entirely up to them, not the machine.

Animal Mother
11-17-2004, 04:29
Originally posted by Medpilot 2
I can't believe what I'm reading. Everyone that is saying the Smith Machine is bad because it forces you to use "bad form".

Okay, can someone explain why the Smith "forces" a person to have bad form?

I can demonstrate bad form on any machine. To say that good form on a Smith Machine is impossible sounds a little ignorant to me. It's a bar that goes straight up and down. How a person position their body while using the Smith is entirely up is entirely up to them, not the machine.
Exactly because the Smith Machine only allows the bar to travel in one plane. It prevents the stabilizer muscles from operating in the same way they do when doing a free weight exercise, thus they become detrained. Some also believe squatting on a smith machine causes excessive strain on the knees, based on personal observation, it definitely causes people to use poor squat form.

Medpilot 2
11-17-2004, 04:53
Have you ever carefully watched someone do a barbell squat correctly? The bar should only move UP and DOWN, not side to side or diagonally. The same exact motion and direction the Smith Machine moves in. So to say that the Smith promotes bad form doesn’t make sense.

I'm a firm believer in using free weights over machines because of working the stabilizer muscles as you mention.
I'm a part-time personal trainer and I train my clients on 80% dumbbells (for upper-body) just for that very reason. For lower-body, it's a little different.

The smith machine (when used correctly) can build leg strength quicker than free weights. The stability muscles you are working with leg exercise are mostly core (torso) muscle groups. When you have to stabilize a barbell on you shoulders when doing squats, it's your torso that does most of the stabilization. I'm not saying that one exercise is better than another here; I'm just saying that each has their advantages and disadvantages. But to say that the Smith Machine is a bad machine over all makes me think that you are either MIS or UN informed about how to use one.

Animal Mother
11-17-2004, 05:41
Originally posted by Medpilot 2
Have you ever carefully watched someone do a barbell squat correctly? The bar should only move UP and DOWN, not side to side or diagonally. The same exact motion and direction the Smith Machine moves in. So to say that the Smith promotes bad form doesn’t make sense.

I'm a firm believer in using free weights over machines because of working the stabilizer muscles as you mention.
I'm a part-time personal trainer and I train my clients on 80% dumbbells (for upper-body) just for that very reason. For lower-body, it's a little different.

The smith machine (when used correctly) can build leg strength quicker than free weights. The stability muscles you are working with leg exercise are mostly core (torso) muscle groups. When you have to stabilize a barbell on you shoulders when doing squats, it's your torso that does most of the stabilization. I'm not saying that one exercise is better than another here; I'm just saying that each has their advantages and disadvantages. But to say that the Smith Machine is a bad machine over all makes me think that you are either MIS or UN informed about how to use one.
No, I've never watched a person do a squat, not once. Yes, the bar goes up and down, but when it isn't running on tracks, the stabilizer muscles are what MAKE it go up and down, while your glutes and quads and hips provide the main pushing power. That's why you push out your abdominals when squatting, stability. It isn't necessary to do that with a smith machine, or at least, not as necessary. I further disagree with your claim that you can gain strength faster on a Smith machine, that's like saying you get stronger faster doing chest press on a machine than benching. Oddly, almost every major strength, conditioning and powerlifting agrees with me. The smith machine has some applications, but it wouldn't be among the first 30 or 40 things I'd buy when putting together a gym.

Medpilot 2
11-17-2004, 08:03
Sorry, I don’t mean any disrespect with my sarcastic tone. I’m just a smartass by nature.;f

I still don’t understand why it’s said that proper form is impossible on a Smith Machine? I see people using improper form on free weight squats all the time. It’s all about knowing what you are doing.

The reason I say Smith squats will increase your strength faster is because you don’t have to involve any stability muscle groups. There is a complete isolation of a set muscle group going on when using the Smith Machine. I wouldn’t recommend someone to only do Smith squats however. Doing so will not develop any core muscle groups making free weight squats harder.

The statement about gaining more strength on a chest machine is both right and wrong. Yes you will increase strength faster in that one plain of motion, but that’s useless in the real world. I think a free weight workout is more beneficial when you are talking about “real world” strength. You are engaging more muscle groups with free weights so the strength gaining process takes more time but can be more beneficial in the long run.


Oddly, almost every major strength, conditioning and powerlifting agrees with me.

That statement does not really help your argument without some kind of reference to back it up. I can make the opposite claim myself. Not that I would though because I think we disagreeing on two different things. I’m not saying that free weights are inferior to machines. My last post explains that. I’m just saying that the Smith Machine can be a good tool for developing certain muscle groups. The title of this thread was “Glutes Workout”. If you want to only work the Glutes and nothing else, the Smith Machine can be a good tool for that.

BrokenArrow
11-18-2004, 21:55
This is a classic example of thread hijacking! ;)

Since I see folks who have degrees in exercise physiology and/or ACSM certifications using the Smith machines, I'm gonna assume they have their time and place for some folks.

As to glute work... lunges work better than squats for me. I like jumping split lunges.

From a standing position jump and split your legs into the lunge position (how deep/wide/low is up to you). Then jump and reverse the lead leg position. Repeat.

Use no weight, barbell, or dumbbells. Even some heavy squatters can get a good workout w no/light weights if they work 'em hard, that is jump high/fast and lunge low/deep.

Another good one is to get your girl on top and try to bounce her head off the ceiling... ;b

Animal Mother
11-18-2004, 22:11
Originally posted by Medpilot 2
Sorry, I don’t mean any disrespect with my sarcastic tone. I’m just a smartass by nature.;f

I still don’t understand why it’s said that proper form is impossible on a Smith Machine? I see people using improper form on free weight squats all the time. It’s all about knowing what you are doing.
It's easy to use improper form anywhere, the major points against the Smith Machine are the limitation on range of motion and failure to train secondary muscle groups. Proper form isn't really the issue, the fact that free weight exercises are far superior is.

The reason I say Smith squats will increase your strength faster is because you don’t have to involve any stability muscle groups. There is a complete isolation of a set muscle group going on when using the Smith Machine. I wouldn’t recommend someone to only do Smith squats however. Doing so will not develop any core muscle groups making free weight squats harder.
But what would be the point of developing strength in this way? It isn't applicapble to general fitness, powerlifting, or bodybuilding. Outside of a rehabilitation scenario, I don't see why you'd want to develop strength in that way.

The statement about gaining more strength on a chest machine is both right and wrong. Yes you will increase strength faster in that one plain of motion, but that’s useless in the real world. I think a free weight workout is more beneficial when you are talking about “real world” strength. You are engaging more muscle groups with free weights so the strength gaining process takes more time but can be more beneficial in the long run.
This statement also applies to the Smith Machine, and explains the objection to using it.

That statement does not really help your argument without some kind of reference to back it up.
Not a problem.

Charles Poliquin (http://www.t-nation.com/portal_includes/articles/1999/body_75cp) All in all, the Smith machine is a training piece for dorks.Bob Youngs (http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=3329&tid=) Q. Can you do box squats in a smith machine or will it be to limited?
A. Never ever use a Smith Machine for anything.
There are others, but we could toss "experts" at one another all year. I think there are very limited circumstances when the Smith Machine can be useful, but I don't think it should be a staple of any program, or even of most gyms.

I can make the opposite claim myself. Not that I would though because I think we disagreeing on two different things. I’m not saying that free weights are inferior to machines. My last post explains that. I’m just saying that the Smith Machine can be a good tool for developing certain muscle groups. The title of this thread was “Glutes Workout”. If you want to only work the Glutes and nothing else, the Smith Machine can be a good tool for that.
Again, even if what you're saying is true, and I don't think it is. You'll end up developing the glutes, and nothing else. Thus, you'll have a nice rear end, but the first time you try and run, you'll pull a hamstring. In general, I think functional strength is, if not the primary goal, an expected part of working out and the Smith Machine doesn't provide it.

benji
11-26-2004, 20:59
atf squats or walking lunges kill my glutes on a weekly basis.

California Jack
11-26-2004, 21:19
I jumped out of the Smith Machine debate a long time ago. Here is an article with references about the Smith Machine...


SMITH MACHINES: Building Muscle or Causing Injury.

WATCH OUT for that “self-spotting” Smith machine next time you’re at the gym. Although thousands of gym-goers rely on these machines everyday for a safe, spotter-free workout, experts in the field are starting to question just how safe Smith machines really are. It might be self-spotting, but is the linear barbell movement of the machine putting excessive strain on your back and knees? Smith machines are currently well accepted throughout the entire industry, but should professionals really be allowing their clients and athletes to do squats and bench presses with this equipment?

Recent studies, research and applied biomechanical theories shed some light into this debate that affects so many lifters everyday. T.O. Bompa and L.J. Cornacchia jointly authored some of the most well-read material written on this subject in 1998. In an article published in the Journal of Athletic Training by the National Trainer’s Association, they write, “The Smith machine forces you to move the bar on a straight line while your body is planted in one spot. This is not a natural movement pattern.” Bompa and Cornacchia go on to explain that the spine’s natural curvature and integrity is undermined by the machine’s movement in only one dimension, the vertical plane. As a result, lifters may incur injuries of the back or joints. “The straight up and down movement of the bar while your feet are planted in a Smith machine squat produces excessive strain on the lower back and knees.”

Bompa and Cornacchia weren’t the first researchers to find fault in movements that restrict the body’s natural motion and force the lifter to repeat those movements over and over. Stone, Johnson and Carter also wrote on this subject in 1979. They denounced squatting on a smith machine as, “an idea both hideous and destructive.” 2 They felt this way for several reasons, with the first one being that any athlete needs to learn balance, which is removed from any smith machine motion. Second, the “straight up and down” movement of the bar reduces the lifter’s use of his or her optimal strength curve. “The smith machine also requires that the lifter either squats with his torso much closer to vertical than would be done with a real squat, which mechanically decreases the involvement of both the spinal erectors and the hamstrings. While this would be fine if it was done by the lifter’s muscular control, when the Smith machine does this it is disadvantageous to the lifter by virtue of decreasing the ability of the hamstrings to protect the knee joint.” Stone, Johnson and Carter continue and explain just how harmful this limited motion can be on the knees. “Another mistake is allowing the knees to drift forward over the toes, the chance of which is increased by the Smith machine. As was previously mentioned, this greatly increases the shearing force on the knees. This, from a device touted by the ignorant as ‘safe.’”

For serious lifters, there is even more at stake when using a Smith machine. Scholz and McMillan wrote an article that appeared in Physical Therapy in 1995. “You have to especially watch the Smith machine, since it is used the most for compound exercises. You will injure yourself using heavy weights for compounds on a smith machine. A natural arc is a system that allows the muscle and bone to optimize a lifting assignment. By denying the arc, you are not only putting undue stress on the muscles and nerves, stunting growth, but also on the ligaments and bones and everything else involved in a lift, and that in turn can lead to some seriously unhealthy practices.” 3

The amount of research describing the relationship between Smith machines and injury may come as a surprise to many lifters who use a Smith machine as part of their everyday workout regime. Rod Cole, Head Strength Coach at Kansas State University, was quick to react to these kinds of findings when word first came out. “I used to include a Smith machine in some workout programs I designed for my athletes. But after a few sore backs, knees and some other injuries, compounded with the research that was being published at the time, I stopped relying on Smith machines. I just don’t want to take a chance with my athletes.”

Coach Cole wasn’t alone. Other professionals in the industry reacted similarly to the latest news about the safety concerns involved with working out on a Smith machine. Corporate fitness center purchasers within the Ford Motor Company also didn’t want to take any more risks. Dee Smith, a corporate fitness center purchaser at UAW-Ford, explains, “The liabilities of running a corporate fitness center are already great, so we try to minimize the involved risks whenever possible. When I heard that Smith machines were increasing the possibility of injury, it was a simple decision to stop buying those units.” Aside from the insurance and liability aspects, fitness center managers, coaches, trainers and gym owners also feel that biomechanics often get overlooked and need to be addressed more often. “When research proved that these machines were forcing my lifters to move unnaturally, I immediately began to look for alternatives,” she added.

What can a coach or fitness center manager do to alleviate this problem? First, research suggests that lifters should stop using Smith machines or any other machine that severely restricts one’s natural movement. Stop the injuries before they start! Upon learning more about the research, many fitness professionals have decided to increase their facility’s dependence on free-weights, countering the industry-wide movement toward machines. But some professionals, like Rod Cole at Kansas State and Dee Smith at Ford Motors, turned to new technology. Dee explained to me, “We have found success with the Max Rack, which combines free-weight barbell motion with the safety features of a Smith machine. Everyone at our facilities has forgotten the Smith machine.” Max Rack, Inc., a weight lifting equipment manufacturer located in Columbus, Ohio, has developed and patented the technology that allows for safer and more bio-mechanically correct barbell motion. The machine also allows the lifter to perform a greater number of exercises than a machine with only vertical movement. Rod added, “That’s why I’ve gone to Max Rack- it provides safety within a natural multi-plane movement- unlike the single-plane motion of a Smith machine.” Dee explained how the new technology has affected her co-workers and peers: “My clients have stopped doing what the Smith machine was forcing them to do and can now listen to their bodies.”

-Dr. Ron O’Brien, 8-time U.S.A. Olympic Diving Coach and advocate of free-weights

REFERENCES

1 Bompa, T.O. and Cornacchia, L.J. Serious Strength Training, Journal of Athletic Training. Vol. 33, Oct. 1998. National Athletic Trainer’s Association

2 Stone, M.H., Johnson, R. L. , & Carter, D. R. (1979). A short-term comparison of two different methods of resistance training on leg strength and power. Athletic Training, 14, 158-160.

3 Scholz JP, Mcmillan AG, Neuromuscular coordination of squat lifting, II: Individual differences. Physical Therapy, Feb. 1995; 75(2) 133-144.

Other Brooks, Douglas. Effective Strength Training: Analysis and Technique. Human Kinetics Pub, August 2001

Bompa and Comacchia article about the dangers of lifting on a Smith machine.

The smith machine forces you to move the bar on a straight line while your body is planted in one spot. This is not a natural movement pattern. In a natural squat the bar moves in an arc, more pronounced when you squat on the whole surface of the soles of your feet. The straight up and down movement of the bar while your feet are planted in a smith machine squat produces excessive strain on the lower back and knees. (Bompa and Cornacchia 1998).

Medpilot 2
11-27-2004, 10:07
I'll have to do some more research and get back to this thread.

I'd like to know why so many people are getting hurt on the Smith Machine.

I only use the Smith for rearward lunges (using 275lbs) and have never been hurt.