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Babysinister
11-10-2005, 10:46
Originally posted by Albert Shear


Babysinister-FC stamped had a weakness in the web area of the case construction-a defect. Federal strengthened the case and to differentiate the the newer cases from the older they began stamping the Federal instead of FC.


Thank you for the info. I do have a whole bunch of 9mm Federal stamped FC, that's why I asked. I bought my first Glock, a G19, just a month ago. I haven't been able to fire it yet, what with Wilma and post-hurricane repairs and all. I had it in my range bag all ready to go for this weekend. I guess now I'll unload the FC 9mm and replace the batch with some Georgia Arms factory ammo that I bought when I got the gun. Whew! Seems that the time lag between buying the gun and taking it to the range for the first time is a blessing in disguise. What do you do when you have a bunch of FC stamped ammo, return it to Federal? Or just flush them down the toilet? ;)

Robert302
11-11-2005, 14:20
I was thinking about doing a test on glocks and federal FC stamped ammo and other ammo. Just to find out which glock models are most prone to blowing up due to a defective load.

I just need all the glock owners here to send me their guns so I can test. I'll cover shipping and I'm not responsible if your glock is returned to you in more than one piece.
;f ;z

BrokenArrow
11-11-2005, 16:10
New Federal v old FC?

Isn't it the other way 'round?

I have a bunch of new production Federal 9mm ammo (American Eagle and HST) and it's marked FC, not Federal.

I know there was some problems w Federal 40 S&W ammo a few yrs ago, and the 40 cases were tweaked... 155 HS and 180 FMJ to be specific. Blew cases in guns other than Glocks too BTW.

The new HST ammo I have was made long after those problems were discoverd and fixed, and they are marked FC. ;b

CCCPsoldier
11-20-2005, 13:09
if my brand new glock 26 can eat up wolf ammo like nuthing,than i agree it most likely won't go boom in my hands...

jmacelree
11-21-2005, 10:27
Originally posted by CCCPsoldier
if my brand new glock 26 can eat up wolf ammo like nuthing,than i agree it most likely won't go boom in my hands...

I think Wolf is made with steel cases. They may be stronger than brass cases, which would reduce the problem.

CCCPsoldier
11-21-2005, 12:10
yah they are steel cased.also in some wolf ammo they use a little steel in the bullets to make things cheaper.not really hard steel or anything.recently wolf ammo makes quality hunting ammo in brass cases in bunch of dif calibers.would take a lot more pressure to rupture a steel case! :cool:

DRH
12-10-2005, 00:11
First off what does KB stand for?
Is this mostly an issue with Glock
40 SW and if so should I only
use factory ammo if I buy a Glock?
Am I better off to buy a SIG 40 SW
if I want to use reloads because quite
frankly this freaks me out a little.

fabricator
12-10-2005, 05:28
Originally posted by DRH
First off what does KB stand for?
Is this mostly an issue with Glock
40 SW and if so should I only
use factory ammo if I buy a Glock?
Am I better off to buy a SIG 40 SW
if I want to use reloads because quite
frankly this freaks me out a little.

Is that supposed to be a poem? If so it doesnt rhyme very good.

mobocracy
12-10-2005, 08:57
Originally posted by fabricator
Is that supposed to be a poem? If so it doesnt rhyme very good.

You'd prefer Haiku format?

Glock a loose chamber
Feeds fresh rounds very easy
Will sometimes kaboom

Third party barrel
With better chamber support
Fires reloads with ease

Babysinister
12-10-2005, 11:12
Originally posted by mobocracy
You'd prefer Haiku format?

Glock a loose chamber
Feeds fresh rounds very easy
Will sometimes kaboom

Third party barrel
With better chamber support
Fires reloads with ease

Better still, how about a Nostradamus prophetic quatrain?

In the New City in the year five
careless owner place cylinder with bad stuffing
inside tube that shoots; its end is weak,
therefore kaboom will happen with great sound.

fabricator
12-10-2005, 16:48
Originally posted by mobocracy
You'd prefer Haiku format?

Glock a loose chamber
Feeds fresh rounds very easy
Will sometimes kaboom

Third party barrel
With better chamber support
Fires reloads with ease

Much better;)

BGPD
12-11-2005, 05:38
Originally posted by DRH
First off what does KB stand for?
Is this mostly an issue with Glock
40 SW and if so should I only
use factory ammo if I buy a Glock?
Am I better off to buy a SIG 40 SW
if I want to use reloads because quite
frankly this freaks me out a little.


since you received no real answers from the last time I checked in I'll try.
KB stands for KaBoom. Its when the unsupported lower section of the case(because of the barel/chamber design) lets go and a rupture occurs at the moment of firing. The "hot gas" is directed downward through the magwell, and some out through the barrel with the bullet if your lucky and with the extractor.

Its generally an issue with .40 caliber Glocks and bad cases.
Use only new .40 factory amo and you'll be fine. If you reload be very careful on overcharging.

Its not a common enough occurrance to worry about imo.

fabricator
12-11-2005, 05:40
Especially if you shoot a itty bitty .40 bullet.

gary newport
12-20-2005, 18:52
Originally posted by DRH
First off what does KB stand for?
Is this mostly an issue with Glock
40 SW and if so should I only
use factory ammo if I buy a Glock?
Am I better off to buy a SIG 40 SW
if I want to use reloads because quite
frankly this freaks me out a little.

I'd suggest reading the beginning of this thread. A case failure cannot usefully be considered a kB! A REAL kB! occurs when significant overpressure cause the GUN to blow up, bending and ripping steel. ANY gun will blow up if subjected to pressure beyond its designed tolerance. Overpressure events usually occur when one (or more) of the following is true: (1) the round is over/double charged or charged with the wrong powder. (2) the bullet is set back in the case, reducing volume and increasing pressure, (3) a round is fired through an obstructed bore, possibly a bullet left by a previous under-charged round (a squib). Overpressure has essentially nothing to do with "unsupported" chambers.

jmacelree
12-21-2005, 10:05
Gary is right to advise you to start at the beginning of this thread.

Some will present a technical definition, but in general terms, KB means - KA BOOOOM - Blowing up the gun - Blowing apart the gun - Very bad if you are close to the gun - Injury or death can occur. There are many many reasons for a KB.

There are also many many reasons for over pressure. I would add to the above that over pressure can also be caused by the over all length (OAL) being too long which engages the bullet with the lands and groves of the rifling before the detonation of the round. Loading the wrong (too big) diameter bullet can also cause over pressure. Very fast powder in a big case and too much air or space combined with a heavy bullet might cause over pressure.

Rounds that do not fully load into the chamber and the gun (defective perhaps)still allows the round to be detonated causing an explosion. This may not technically be over pressure and it may not technicly be a KB (depending on who supplies the definiition), but there is an explosion and the explosion is not contained because the case is not supported. The case is ruptured and may cause collateral damage. If you are the one holding the gun at the time, you will hear KA BOOOM and you will be lucky if no one is injured.

If you are reloading, you need to follow the recipe. You need to be very careful and remember you are dealing with a controlled explosion in your hand that is not far from your head. The "Myth Busters" on the Discovery Channel did a show on plugged shotgun barrels with interesting results.

Some people have bad luck and report a KB even when they act cautiously with a modern gun and new factory ammo. KBs have been reported with many brands and types of guns and ammo. Some may be more susceptible than others.

If you are using factory rounds you need to make sure your gun is in good working condition and designed for those rounds (some rounds are marked as high pressure or high velocity). Some guns, depending on age, condition, materials, design and etc, etc should only be fired with lower pressure rounds. Some are not safe to fire at all. Guns are mechanical devices and like all mechanical devices need to be properly inspected and maintained but all will eventually fail.

Some KBs have been reported with "old" factory rounds. Yet many people shoot "old" military surplus regularly without problems. Others report KBs with rounds that were found in an old drawer or box. A cutious person would not eat a pill he found lying around because he does not know what is in it. The same should apply to ammo.

Some people like to test the extremes (like the guy who fired an elephant rifle round in a modified handgun ;g - reportedly lost part of his hand and it my not have been a KB). Others do not use common sense and caution;P. Some in both groups have been seriously injured or killed.

BE CAREFUL - BE SAFE

English
12-25-2005, 06:11
This is clearly a very popular thread and I have amazed myself by reading it all. Rather than go back and find all the references I will just refer to the ideas.

One of the most striking things is the aggressive interaction initiated by the man (avatar of Tasmanian wolf) who has had twenty Glocks but thinks that they are more likely to blow up because they have sloppy chambers. His extremely aggressive initial approach triggered everyone else into a fight mode rather than a rational problem solving mode. He has done the thread a great disservice. His principal belief that loose chambers cause blowouts has to be nonsense. All cartridge cases expand to seal the chamber, more or less, regardless of how sloppy the chamber is and then spring back most of the way. A sloppy chamber will produce a bigger diameter “empty” than a tight chamber. The expansion happens in the early phase of the ignition because the brass is very weak in comparison to the chamber. Any “slap” of brass on chamber at this stage must be negligible compared to the later rise in pressure. If anything a sloppy chamber will reduce the total pressure because it provides a bigger space for the “burn”.

All barrels must be designed to some compromise with respect to their resistance to exceptional events and all will blow up given the wrong, or right, circumstances. I doubt that the G21 is more likely to blow up than the G20 because, as asserted by the same man, their exterior diameters are the same but the hole in the 45 is bigger than the hole in the 10mm. The standard pressures are nearly twice as high in the 10mm and so the 45 has less likelihood of a charge big enough in the right circumstances. When we come to the .40S&W in comparison to the 9mm he might have a valid point. The working pressures are much the same but the chamber wall is thinner in the 40. I don’t believe it but I could be convinced by appropriate evidence.

I have long believed that all manufacturers made a serious mistake by treating the 40 as a bigger bore 9mm just because it could be fitted into the same frame. It shoots bigger bullets at the same velocities and so has more recoil. It needs a correspondingly heavier slide and barrel to slow the slide recoil velocity. It is significant that the accuracy of the .40S&W from a revolver is inherently high but from an auto it is poor compared to other autos. I believe excessive initial slide velocity is the cause and initial slide velocity is hardly affected by spring strength. I think Glock should go the same way as with the GAP45 and increase the slide weight but I don’t think that this has any connection with KB incidents.

Why do we care whether the chamber is tight or loose? For best accuracy we want a tight chamber and a tight slide but a relatively small amount of dirt or grit can cause a failure to feed or failure to go completely into battery. This is not just because there is more friction in the chamber. The timing of the rise of the cartridge depends on both the strength of the magazine spring and the speed of the forward motion of the slide. If the slide is slowed by dirt the magazine spring will give the cartridge too much vertical velocity relative to its horizontal velocity. The result will be that it is too high by the time it reaches the chamber mouth and can jam against the upper edge of the chamber. A slightly looser chamber is not so sensitive to this timing problem and will also put up with a more angled presentation of the cartridge. If you want a reliable defensive handgun that keeps going bang when you pull the trigger until the magazine is empty you need a slightly sloppy slide that does not get slowed down by dirt and a slightly sloppy chamber. If you want maximum accuracy then you want both to be tight. There is no “best” solution – it’s a compromise. In this case, versatile as they are, the Glock pistols are strictly designed for combat use which has to include difficult conditions. They don’t need to shoot into 1 or 2” at 25 yds because 4” is good enough for the purpose. If you want to reload, get better accuracy or shoot lead bullets then you need an after market barrel made for that purpose. If you want service reliability and acceptable accuracy for the purpose with a little more velocity for a given pressure then you want a Glock polygonal barrel and the bulged cases don’t matter.

There is no indication that the so called unsupported barrel causes any other problems (if you don’t reload) because the case wall at that point is thick enough not to burst in a normal firing event. If you block the barrel with a squib load and then fire another normal cartridge you just might be lucky enough for this section to blow out while the barrel is still locked to the slide and this might just save you from a far worse barrel burst. Was it designed as a safety valve? I doubt it! It was designed to give a shallower ramp into the chamber which in turn improves reliability. Could the barrel have been located a little further forward at the cost of miniscule extra length of the pistol? Probably! Would it have been better if it had? Possibly. Was it therefore a design fix in late development? Could be. Does it matter in the least for a combat pistol? Not a jot!

The man who did the entirely sensible experiment of successively shortening a 10mm case to find out whether his .40S&W Glock would fire out of battery had it right but I don’t think that is part of the KB problem. If the cartridge is far enough out of the chamber to be dangerous the striker will be blocked in all but very rare cases. In this category of rare events the cartridge would be ignited before it is properly supported and the result would be a burst cartridge case not a burst barrel because the case would burst long before the pressure reached a level which would endanger the barrel. There has been no evidence put forward of any such mechanical failure of the striker safety block being the source of a case blow out.

The head of the Portland Police Bureau should have been sacked over the G21 KBs. Perhaps he has been by now. To have two failures within two days when the last was five or so years previously has to be an ammunition problem. It was all the same batch of ammunition and not their normal ammunition but the guns had been working for a long time before that training day with no problem. Coincidences do happen but you shouldn’t rely on them. The fact that one failure was at the end of the day and the other was only 20rds after cleaning also says that it was not a build up of dirt in the conventional sense. Those who start with preconceptions are likely to make costly mistakes. To carry on shooting after the first KB without determining the cause seems close to criminal negligence. To try to put the blame onto Glock seems to be either a case of passing the buck or culpable stupidity.

I like the original theme of the thread which distinguishes between a barrel splitting incident and a much less dangerous burst case incident but I will shortly explain why I think that many of these incidents have the same cause.

The barrel and slide start moving back together as soon as the bullet starts moving forwards. Under normal circumstances the barrel does not cam down out of breech lockup until the bullet has cleared the barrel and the gas pressure is virtually zero. This obviously happens very rapidly and the empty cases of my G20 10mm show a smear of the firing pin indentation on the primer so the barrel is camming down before the striker has rebounded.

How can a barrel blow up? The simple but unhelpful answer is because the pressure is higher than it was designed for or it has been weakened in some way irrelevant to this discussion. So the proper question is how does the pressure get so high that a barrel can blow up? This takes many times the working pressure! There are two ways. One is that the cartridge has been over charged for the propellant used. The other is that it is burning in too confined a space. I think that the first is rare in auto pistols because they use small cartridges designed for smokeless powders and so do not have much room for a double charge, which is the most likely reloading error. This is much more likely with what are actually old fashioned revolver cartridges designed originally for black powder and which therefore have more spare volume.

The simplest form of “too small a space” is caused by a load with no propellant, or very little, which leaves a bullet part way up the barrel. The next bullet then comes to an abrupt stop but the powder keeps burning even faster than normal because it is hotter, and the result is an explosion. Bear with me for re-stating the obvious – for those new to such topics it is necessary and I am getting to the denoument as fast as I can. Likewise if you load a very heavy bullet with a powder and charge designed and tested for a light bullet, the space available expands too slowly, the pressure builds too rapidly and damage is likely to follow. Even if you crimp the bullet too tightly in the case the extra time it takes to start moving can be enough to cause a dangerous build up of pressure as the powder has extra time to “burn” before the space available to it has opened up enough to both cool its temperature, and therefore rate of reaction, or to reduce its pressure by containing it in a bigger volume.

How else can we achieve this undesirable effect? If a previous bullet or bullets leaves a substantial deposit part way down the barrel, then the next bullet will slow down enough for pressure to become high enough to cause damage. The actual damage will depend on how much it is slowed and how far down the barrel the obstruction is located but in any case the bullet can end up leaving the barrel and taking the obstruction with it. The PPB should have looked for it! Remember that the barrel and slide have started to recoil together and that the engineer who designed and tested it expects the bullet to have left the barrel before the breech unlocks. But is this case the bullet has been slowed down even though the pressures are much higher than he expected and his calculations and testing are worthless.

If the partial obstruction is a short way down the barrel the recoil will have been reduced at an early stage and the slide velocity will be low. The breech will still be locked as the pressure builds to a dangerous level and the barrel will bulge or burst.

If the obstruction is further down the barrel the pressure will be lower because there is more space and so a burst barrel is less likely but a more important effect will have taken over. The bullet has moved further and faster before meeting the obstruction and so will have produced more recoil. This will have produced more slide velocity which will have unlocked the breech. The high gas pressure will be forcing the cartridge case walls against the side of the chamber very hard so the probable result is that the head of the case blows off taking the extractor with it but leaving the rest of the cartridge expanded tight in place against the chamber. This is because the chamber has actually been swelled outwards by the excessive pressure but has than sprung back to grip the walls of the case when the pressure fell. This fits the picture of the barrel shown earlier in the thread.

This hypothesis fits the facts and provides a single explanation for many of both types of explosive event. The problem is an ammunition problem and is nothing to do with the weakness of the barrel or the unsupported section. As to what manufacturing fault of the bullet can leave such an obstruction, I cannot guess. Perhaps it needs a rare sequence of failures.

I believe that case blowouts are much more likely to be caused in this way than by a failure to go into battery combined with a failure of the striker safety block. If I were a proper engineer I suspect that I could do calculations based on the pressure resistance of the exposed case and the limitations on bullet velocity that would be created to show that this was so.

The moral of the story is that we should use good bullets. The difficulty with this is that, for all we know, some apparently good and expensive bullets might be at risk of this occasional failure. What we need is a data base of KB events, including case blow outs, so that we can see if there is any consistent pattern to implicate particular bullets or firearms.


English

emm
12-25-2005, 16:05
English - I've wanted to see a database for a long time, that way we all could get a good analysis of what the problems might be.

I just returned a "probably" perfectly good barrel because I can't "afford" to blow up a G29 that wouldn't be covered by Glock Inc. The main reason for being "scared" is I just can't get that good KB data analysis that I need...

Possible fields:
Gun Model
Barrel Length
Barrel Manufacture
Un-Supported Area Measurement
Ammo Manufacturer
Lot Number
Bullet Wt
Bullet Manufacturer
Bullet Type
If Reloads
Power Type
Power Wt
Primer
Time of Occurrence
Who was shooting gun when it occurred
Weather Conditions
Temp
Humidity
KB Info
What Broke (barrel, frame, slide etc...)
and more...

MOHAA Player
02-26-2006, 09:33
I owned numerious Glocks over the years in all calibers and fired alot of different rounds and never had a problem with the stock barrels.

Robert302
02-26-2006, 14:57
I think "emm" must be a paranoid crack smoker..

The chances of having a KB are very slim to none with a glock.

Go buy a Hi-point or some other gun, etc. When it jams at the moment your life is being threatened, you will wish you kept the glock.


To Hi-point owners: no hate to Hi-point guns, I have the 995 9mm carbine, it jams a few times everytime I'm at the range. I love the carbine, it is fun but I just wouldn't fully trust my life to it.

AWGD8
03-22-2006, 20:26
I`m not too worried about Glock KB! What the heck is wrong with you guys? :soap:

Anyone here know an insurance policy that specifically for the right hand coverage? :supergrin:

win231
05-19-2006, 18:53
I'd have to acknowledge that with most P.D.'s using Glocks (I read something like 80%), if there was an inherent design flaw contributing to KB's, there would have to be an epidemic of problems & there are not. It's possible that with so many Glocks out there, there may be more problems with Glocks, but I think it's due to improper handloads.

mobocracy
05-19-2006, 19:03
Originally posted by win231
I'd have to acknowledge that with most P.D.'s using Glocks (I read something like 80%), if there was an inherent design flaw contributing to KB's, there would have to be an epidemic of problems & there are not. It's possible that with so many Glocks out there, there may be more problems with Glocks, but I think it's due to improper handloads.

Blaming improper handloads doesn't adequately explain many reported KBs, since a lot seem to have happened with factory ammo (based on what I've read).

I think it's more likely that the unsupported area on Glock barrels just pushes the tolerance factor close enough to the edge that the large number of Glocks simply exposes it.

jbremount
05-20-2006, 11:31
English....This is a picture of my Storm Lake aftermarket barrel(left) next to my Glock 23 stock barrel(right). The Storm Lake never buldges the cases even with the A-- Kicking Double Tab ammo. The Glock barrel buldges the case with winchester white box target loads. I have seen pictures of other aftermarket barrels that have even "more" case support than the storm lake barrels. Everyone is coming to their own conclusions,right or/and wrong about the glock buldge and case rupture at the 6 o'clock position. My opinion is that the the Kb problems starts with the lack of case support in the 6 o'clock area. The big time barrels makers have decided a course of action to take and are engineering and manufacturing their glock barrels with much better case support and tighter chambers than the glock factory barrels. I do not know of even one aftermarket barrel maker that is making a barrel with the same or less case support and oversized chamber as the glock factory barrel. Glocks are used by civilians and PD in the U.S. I think the big oversized chamber and lack of case support is more of a problem for them. I personally would rather have standard rifing and the ability to shoot lead in a barrel myself. Quite a few people reload in the U.S. To sum this all up, I agree with the barrel makers, get a barrel with a tighter chamber and "maxium case support" for the high pressure .40/10mm caliber guns. I believe Lone Wolf dist. is coming out with a barrel for the .40 that will probably be the best deal for the bucks.


http://i4.tinypic.com/106eb0x.jpg[/IMG][B][B]

RtBrane
08-07-2006, 03:14
Normally, I load my G27 (40sw) by chambering a round from a fully loaded mag, then struggle to top off the mag. Wait a minuite, I've got an empty mag, I'll put a single round in that for loading the chamber. Yeah, right. Jammed against the barrel ramp. Start over, same problem. Tried slingshot and slide release, same result. Not everytime, but better than 50% jammed. (Through several classes, this gun has never malfunctioned.) Tried several different brands, hollowpoint and flatpoint. All will jam. Smacking the bottom of the mag will cause the round to finish chambering.
After this, I noticed the rounds didn't look right. Compared them to fresh ammo, realized all had some setback.
Hmmm, time to bring out the calipers and run a small test.
Jammed produced setback from 0.015" to 0.065":shocked:
Non-jam loading also produced setback, as much as 0.019"
However, I also measured bullets moving out after chambering. 0.001 to .004" Appearently, the slide velocity is rather high.

Obviously, the chambering dynamics are different between hand cycling and firing, since I've run mags dry many times without any jamming on the last round.
However, the bullet displacement that this little test indicates, brings me to the tentative conclusion that this may be the causitive factor in some of the case ruptures, and chamber failures (KBooms). Especially the puzzling factory ammo KB's.
It may also explain the accuracy complaints about the .40sw, since varying the powder space in the case will effect pressure which changes bullet placement at the target.

BTW, for those interested, the minimum chamber wall thickness I found was 0.080" (RH side). I measured the chamber walls of a Colt Pocket9 (only 9mm on hand), minimum was 0.074"

I think I'll take calipers with me next time I shoot, and check rounds that have been dynamically loaded.

Will

BrokenArrow
08-07-2006, 13:09
How's the reliability w the aftermarket Glock bbls w more case support?

Only experience I have is w Jarvis Glock bbls, and they caution while more supported, may not be as reliable. :alien:

mobocracy
08-07-2006, 18:59
Originally posted by BrokenArrow
How's the reliability w the aftermarket Glock bbls w more case support?

Only experience I have is w Jarvis Glock bbls, and they caution while more supported, may not be as reliable. :alien:
A drop-in replacement barrel might give feed problems for two reasons. Most have tighter chamber tolerances, which means that out of spec ammo may not chamber or eject reliably. And then there's the question of barrel fit in a "drop-in" replacement. Mine's worked well, but it's not hard to imagine that a replacement barrel maker might err on the "tight fit" side, impacting performance.

I'd personally like to see aftermarket barrels come in "combat" chambering/fits, with slightly looser tolerances and "match" chambering/fits.

I had to tighten my 10mm crimps .003-5" at the case mouth to get my reloads to run reliably in my Glock 29 with a KKM barrel. Previously they worked great in S&W 1006 & 1066, but were .003-5 larger than Remington UMC factory loads.

English
08-08-2006, 03:47
There is a lot of feeling but no evidence that the relatively loose chamber and unsupported area of the Glock chamber are significant contributory factors in KBs. Both will weaken the brass for reloading but lots of KBs have occured with factory ammo. Lots of KBs have also occured with many different makes of handgun and in both revolvers (fully supported chambers) and in autos. The Glock chamber looks like an attractive red herring!

English

mobocracy
08-08-2006, 04:58
Originally posted by English
[B]There is a lot of feeling but no evidence that the relatively loose chamber and unsupported area of the Glock chamber are significant contributory factors in KBs. Both will weaken the brass for reloading but lots of KBs have occured with factory ammo. Lots of KBs have also occured with many different makes of handgun and in both revolvers (fully supported chambers) and in autos. The Glock chamber looks like an attractive red herring!

Please do detail your experience with revolver KBs not directly attributable to overcharges. I've seen KB'd revolvers, but they were always associated with double charges of fast powders.

BuckyP
08-08-2006, 07:06
Originally posted by English
The man who did the entirely sensible experiment of successively shortening a 10mm case to find out whether his .40S&W Glock would fire out of battery had it right but I don’t think that is part of the KB problem. If the cartridge is far enough out of the chamber to be dangerous the striker will be blocked in all but very rare cases. In this category of rare events the cartridge would be ignited before it is properly supported and the result would be a burst cartridge case not a burst barrel because the case would burst long before the pressure reached a level which would endanger the barrel. There has been no evidence put forward of any such mechanical failure of the striker safety block being the source of a case blow out.

<snip>

The barrel and slide start moving back together as soon as the bullet starts moving forwards. Under normal circumstances the barrel does not cam down out of breech lockup until the bullet has cleared the barrel and the gas pressure is virtually zero. This obviously happens very rapidly and the empty cases of my G20 10mm show a smear of the firing pin indentation on the primer so the barrel is camming down before the striker has rebounded.

<snip>

I believe that case blowouts are much more likely to be caused in this way than by a failure to go into battery combined with a failure of the striker safety block. If I were a proper engineer I suspect that I could do calculations based on the pressure resistance of the exposed case and the limitations on bullet velocity that would be created to show that this was so.

English

You mention an out of battery condition and claim that the little extra bit of exposed case shouldn't be enough to cause a blow out. However, you must also consider the fact that in this condition the gun is unlocked or partially unlocked, and therefore is likely to be completely unlocked before such time that the pressures have dropped to a safe level.

"the barrel is camming down before the striker has rebounded"

I don't believe the striker of a GLOCK rebounds as it does in most autos and remains forward until partially cocked by the action.

English
08-08-2006, 10:50
Originally posted by BuckyP
You mention an out of battery condition and claim that the little extra bit of exposed case shouldn't be enough to cause a blow out. However, you must also consider the fact that in this condition the gun is unlocked or partially unlocked, and therefore is likely to be completely unlocked before such time that the pressures have dropped to a safe level.

"the barrel is camming down before the striker has rebounded"

I don't believe the striker of a GLOCK rebounds as it does in most autos and remains forward until partially cocked by the action.

If I remember correctly, you have missed a large and important part between the second and third parragraphs of mine that you quote.

Last part first - I think you are right about the striker smear. Thank you.

If, as you are suggesting in your first paragraph, the gun can be fired while slightly out of battery then it might well be that it could come far enough out of battery for the pressure to burst the case before the bullet leaves the barrel. If this was so we would see a smiley further forward on the remains of the case and a hole in the case at the rear six O'clock position. I am not denying this but have seen no evidence of it. In Walter G's terminology this would not be a KB since there is no overpressure and burst chamber, ringed barrel and so on.

It makes more sense to me to think of the whole range of proper KBs as variations on the same theme. They all show signs of excess pressure and not all can be put down to overcharging or undercharging. In some cases we have the remains of the case seized into the barrel so tightly that it can only be hammered out. The head of the case seems invariably to be blown into the distance. The front of the case can be seized in the barrel by only one mechanism. The pressure has to not only expand the case to fit the chamber but to expand the chamber itself to such an extent that when the pressure is released the chamber shrinks back onto the case, which had expanded to the swollen size of the chamber. It forms a compression fit which is used in some advanced mechanical assembly processes with high pressure hydraulics. In this case the pressure is not quite enough to burrst the chamber but is far higher than normal.

Since many KBs have not involved reloads it seems that the most likely mechanism is a partial and temporary blockage in the barrel. This delays the bullet long enough for the pressure to build to very high levels. That increases the temperature. That accelerates the burn rate of the propellant. That puts up the pressure, and so on to KB. If the bullet did not move there would be no recoil to open the slide and the chamber would burst. If there is a little movement the slide will start to move but the barrel will burst before it opens the breach. With more bullet movement there is likely to be enough recoil to open the slide before the bullet leaves the barrel and we get a simple burst case or a burst case seized into the chamber.

Since we don't find the delayed bullet in the barrel it does not form a complete blockage but since the pressures are enough to expand the bore, the bullet would be blown out past the obstruction anyway.

English

gary newport
08-08-2006, 13:14
Originally posted by mobocracy
Please do detail your experience with revolver KBs not directly attributable to overcharges. I've seen KB'd revolvers, but they were always associated with double charges of fast powders.

At the range I go to, there is a display case with a couple of S&W N-frame revolvers and a bull-strong Ruger Blackhawk. All have FULLY-SUPPORTED chambers--and all experienced true kB! events--topstraps are curled upward or broken, cylinders are broken, etc. Little tags identify the cause for each: TRIPLE charge, wrong powder, and wrong bullet. Add occluded barrel (which really encompasses "wrong bullet") and you have the Usual Suspects for TRUE kB! events--excessive pressure.

I've seen dramatic case failures when a 9mm cartridge is fired in a .40 Glock (don't ask!). Guess what? NO DAMAGE to the gun! WalterGA was right in this matter, as he so often was on other matters.

mobocracy
08-08-2006, 14:00
Originally posted by gary newport
I've seen dramatic case failures when a 9mm cartridge is fired in a .40 Glock (don't ask!). Guess what? NO DAMAGE to the gun! WalterGA was right in this matter, as he so often was on other matters.

Heh..kind of like this?

http://www.mobocracy.org/images/10mm-in-45acp.jpg

That's a 10mm case that managed to get fired in a .45 ACP 1911. Didn't even keyhole, but it also didn't eject right or feed the next round.

A friend of mine, military gun collector and Ph.D. managed to load a magazine of 10mm into my .45 ACP 1911 and let one off. He's suitably punished at every range session with questions as to why "this bullet won't fit...".

It didn't damage the gun or magazine at all. After field stripping and checking the barrel for obstructions, it managed to be as accurate as ever and I've had no problems in 1k+ rounds fired through it since.

RtBrane
08-08-2006, 22:13
Gentlemen, you are wandering off track when you talk about firing smaller than proper caliber rounds. While the brass may look dramatic, you do not have a pressure seal in the barrel, which is required to burst the chamber. Probably don't have a good seal at the breach face either. If the bullet was lead, you might cause some lead to be smeared in the rifleing by flame cutting as the hot gasses blow past the undersized slug. This might be a problem with later shots with proper size ammo.
Will

English
08-09-2006, 04:03
Originally posted by mobocracy
Please do detail your experience with revolver KBs not directly attributable to overcharges. I've seen KB'd revolvers, but they were always associated with double charges of fast powders.

I am not denying the existence of many KBs due to overcharging and many due to the less obvious problem of sub minimal loads flashing over. These are all well know and well understood. Equally, a slightly too large bullet with a normal charge will cause a KB - this does in fact obstruct the bore, just as I am suggesting for other cases, for long enough for the pressure from a normal charge to build high enough to burst the barrel.

When we take away the obvious cases of why KBs happen we are left with a mystery. There seem to be many cases where none of the obvious reasons apply. I am doing no more than try to address those cases.

To answer the question directly: no I have no personal experiences with revolver KBs. Neither do I know of anyone who has such experiences in any number which would provide significant evidence.

I know of one case in which a friend changed his mild revolver loads to a different but seemingly identical lead bullet from a very respected maker and changed propellant at the same time to a charge that should have had the same power. (There were complicated reasons for why he made two changes at the same time.) They were rather inaccurate but the first that he knew of a real problem came on only the second cylinder when the cases would not extract. He found massive leading and was obviously close to a KB. He is meticulous about cleaning and so he was sure that there was no leading before he started the session and I am sure he was right, but after a hard time getting the leading out he fired another six to see if it was a freak occurence. The result was more heavy leading and he stopped the experiment before the cases seized in the chambers. He scrapped all his ammo from that batch but opened and measured the charges and they were as they should have been.

This is not conclusive evidence of anything other than that we are playing a game with rare random dangers.

The position that many of us fall into is to assume that we understand these dangers and that they can't happen to us because we know better. I believe that the "knowledge" that loose Glock chambers cause KBs is one such example. No one has come up with any sensible mechanism by which a loose chamber can cause a KB. Before someone tells us again that Glock chamber walls are thinner than X chamber walls, can I repeat that they still do not burst with normal pressures and that an exceptional event is required to seize a case into a chamber or burst a barrel. Both of these categories expand the bore size before in one case it bursts and in the other it springs back to size. Other makes might offer a little more margin but the phenomenon still exists.

English

RtBrane
08-10-2006, 02:21
ENGLISH,
Did you catch my post at the bottom of page 11? I'd like your feedback on my data.
I haven't made it to the range yet, but I did more testing. Did some further hand cycling, with various amounts of ammo in the mag. With a full mag, I got the least bullet setback, from 0.00 to 0.001". Half-mag produced 0.001 to 0.002". No jams. Re-cycling the same round to see if the setback continued, which it does. Tried 3 brands, 4 bullet weights, plus a commercial reload. Some move easier than others. This is very limited testing, using one Glock, a G27.
I suspect that LEO's might have more KB's, if my theory is accurate. They typically load and unload their guns each shift. Also, some have specified practice ammo, and don't normally shoot their duty ammo. If the same round gets chambered often enough, might be a problem.
What I don't know is what pressure correlates with bullet setback in the .40sw. I imagine there are a number of variables involved here, but I don't have the background to say at what increment setback becomes critical. I seem to recall hearing that along with increased pressure, it induces a spike in the presure rise, which compounds the problem.
BTW, I have seen a G27 after a KB. I arrived at an indoor range shortly after, and had a look at the remains. This was the first G27 the store received, I think, and they added it to the rentals. The rangemaster took it out first, and it grenadeded(sp) with the second mag. (They only allow factory ammo in their rentals.) I think the slide may have been the only salvageable part. Beat the hell out of his hand. They sent it into Glock, which sent back a new gun. The chamber was blown apart. Destroyed the frame, mag, trigger group was blown out. Glad I wasn't holding it. At the time, we assumed it was a bad barrel. Maybe, maybe not!
Will

English
08-10-2006, 04:50
RtBrane,

I certainly found your posts interesting. My immediate thought was "If the .40 then why not the 9 since the .40 bullet is held by a bigger circumference area than the 9?" My next thought was that the pressure is limited by the tension in the case wall pressing inwards on the bullet and that as the 9 has a smaller diameter then this will produce a greater inward pressure for the same tension. Greater pressure over less distance probably equals the same total grip.

There is no doubt that setback bullets will produce higher pressures. I doubt if a 0.001" will make much difference but by the time we get to 50 or 60 thou instead of one, that could be significant. What you say about LEO's is interseting. The problem was recognised by Fairbairn and Sykes back in Shanghai. The instituted a controlled cycling of their ammunition so that all duty rounds were shot in training within a three month period. They also had a system of preventing individual rounds being chambered too many times. I don't remember the figures of the scheme but it was all set out in tables.

As a round is chambered it follows a random path as it bounces from surface to surface. Part of this randomness would almost certianly exist even if every round was absolutely identical (see chaos theory) but in fact there will be a variation in charge and bullet weight, a variation in case wall thickness and consequent possible tension, and a variation in crimp. As you have shown with hand cycling rounds, the speed of the slide after recoil is not the same as with hand cycling. This is because the slide bounces off its stop after recoil and so has a running start before the recoil spring starts to accelerate it towards the breach. So a slighty heavier charge could produce a faster slide pickup and if that is followed by a bad bounce for the next cartridge it could cause exceptional setback in a cartridge with a weak grip on its bullet and that could do it! It takes a lot of fairly rare things coming together but KBs are very infrequent.

I am not trying to knock Glocks, I think that they are a brilliant design and no engineer can anticipate all possible problems, but there seems to be some evidence that this is more of a problem with Glocks than with other makes. The same goes for the .40S&W compared with other cartrridges, though all have the same problem at, perhaps, a lower frequency. One of the complaints about .40S&W Glocks, which I share, is that they were built on a barely converted 9mm platform. This was, of course why the .40S&W was invented in the first place! Many people complain about its snappy recoil and I think that is because the slide is not heavy enough. The momentum imparted to the pistol by the bullet is much the same as a .45 and the most significant thing is that the bullet has left the barrel before the breach unlocks. The felt recoil is almost entirely a matter of the way that the slide moves after the bullet has left the barrel. I believe that the snappiness of the .40 cal Glocks is because of the extra speed with which the slide hits its stop. If this is so then the speed of return of the slide will also be greater because it starts off with a bigger rebound. It all fits together reasonably well as an explanation. Congratulations!

It might even be possible to find forensic evidence in the form of a cartridge case showing evidence of the bullet being driven back before it is fired. Apart from that it should be possible to do lots and lots of painstaking test and measurement to produce a distribution curve of the ammount of setback so that an estimate could be made of the frequency of sufficient setback to cause a KB. Fire a round. Take the chambered round out and measure it. Repace it as carefully as possible from another magazine. Replace the original magazine. Fire the previously measured round. Take out the chambered round etc. A few thousand round should be enough - of each of several manufacturers of course. I would not like to do it! In any case we can't assume a nice distribution curve or that our batch of ammo is representative.

The phenomenon that your hypothesis does not seem to explain is how some KBs combine with a partial breach opening. (I repeat that simply firing out of battery will not produce excess pressures and cannot seize the case in the chamber but would just blow the case without damage to the barrel.) Somehow the pistol has to be in battery before it is fired and then excess pressure still has to exist as the pistol comes out of battery.

Maybe I will think about this another day.

English

gary newport
08-10-2006, 16:38
A very interesting analysis of the Glock KB issue was done by Mark Passamaneck, a forensic engineer who investigates "accidents and failures for a living." His work is available in two places (that I know of); an article on the GlockFAQ website and a chapter in the excellent second edition of Robin Taylor's book, The Glock in Competition.

He blew up his Glock unintentionally, blew some up intentionally under laboratory conditions and examined others which had blown up.

Like WalterGA, Passamaneck makes a clear distinction between case failures and barrel failures. On the subject of "unsupported" chambers, he writes:

"The loose, partially unsupported chamber has attracted a lot of the gun store commando spotlights in the past few years, but the chamber dimensions, in and of themselves, will not cause a KB. Additionally, case failures exhibit a very different failure mode than gross overpressure....Case failures rarely damage the slide or barrel. Sometimes magazines, triggers and mag releases are liberated, but usually a few bucks in parts puts them back together again. The pressure vents downward through the front part of the grip...."

In contrast, "[t]he damage and potential injury due to a barrel failure is quite different. Barrel failures are caused by gross overpressure. Obstructed barrels, double charges, deep-seated bullets and severe leading can be responsible for gross overpressurization."

He continues "Of the several dozen blown Glock barrels I have personally been involved with reviewed injury reports from, the worst injury besides soiled shorts and bruised confidences are blood blisters and a sprained finger here and there....[t]here was not one slide separation and not one grenaded chamber. I cannot say that for other blown guns I have examined. A blown Beretta or a blown 1911 can severely injure the shooter. The chambers on most other pistols are round on the exterior, so there is not a predictable failure location....Good engineering design incorporates predictable failure locations and modes. Glocks are very strong indeed. If I was forced to fire a double-charged or otherwise excess pressure round, I would choose a Glock to shoot it in every time."

Passamaneck has much more to say on the topic of this thread and I commend his chapter in the Robin Taylor book to your attention.

Bottom line: the generous chamber dimensions of Glocks, particularly in larger calibers, may make them more prone to case failures but DO NOT make them more prone to blowing up barrels!

English
08-10-2006, 17:41
Thank you gary. I keep recommending "The Glock in Competition", especially relative to leading dangers in polygonally rifled barrels.

English

mpmarty
08-17-2006, 11:15
Well, I guess I'll chime in here with a personal experience.
My shooting partner used to compete in IPSC back in the late eighties with a S&W 4516. This is a 3" barrel 45acp. In order to make "major" we had to load his ammo with a 265 grain keith type cast wad cutter and max charge. He got smart and sold the smith and bought a Glock 17 and I was left with a bunch of 265gr. 45 auto ammo. Well, I had my Glock 21 and decided to just use it as a noisy bullet puller.

One night at the indoor range, I had a guy on each side of me shooting 357 revolvers with short barrels. The 265gr ammo would sometimes not feed and the slide would close on an empty chamber. Sure enough, I had a ftf and assumed the empty chamber situation and without thinking (and stupidly) jacked the slide and fired again. What had happened was the first failure was a round without powder which moved the slug down the barrel about an inch. The second round went off and I got one hell of a kick and two slugs hit the target downrange the prinmer was completely flattened on the fired case, there was a small smiley face at six o'clock and I had a very slight ring bulge in the barrel. That was it, I continued to use that barrel in that gun for another match and then sent it in to Smyrna for a new barrel. As I recall the load we were using was 5.5 grains of red dot. If ever an overload/overpressure was going to cause a KB that was a great opportunity. As it happened, no real harm or damage and I gained a great deal of respect for my 21.

Marty in Oregon

bigK
09-14-2006, 12:19
I was in a gun shop yesterday and they have a G23 with a kkm barrel on display that is split in half....very impressive what guys can do with their reloaded .40 ammo...:animlol:

thogue
09-26-2007, 14:55
Originally posted by gary newport
In contrast, "[t]he damage and potential injury due to a barrel failure is quite different. Barrel failures are caused by gross overpressure. Obstructed barrels, double charges, deep-seated bullets and severe leading can be responsible for gross overpressurization."

He continues "Of the several dozen blown Glock barrels I have personally been involved with reviewed injury reports from, the worst injury besides soiled shorts and bruised confidences are blood blisters and a sprained finger here and there....[t]here was not one slide separation and not one grenaded chamber. I cannot say that for other blown guns I have examined. A blown Beretta or a blown 1911 can severely injure the shooter. The chambers on most other pistols are round on the exterior, so there is not a predictable failure location....Good engineering design incorporates predictable failure locations and modes. Glocks are very strong indeed. If I was forced to fire a double-charged or otherwise excess pressure round, I would choose a Glock to shoot it in every time."

Passamaneck has much more to say on the topic of this thread and I commend his chapter in the Robin Taylor book to your attention.

Bottom line: the generous chamber dimensions of Glocks, particularly in larger calibers, may make them more prone to case failures but DO NOT make them more prone to blowing up barrels! [/B]

I think this should be noted and consider as an important part of this read. I have yet to read this guys research or "confirm" it but it makes total since in my eyes (I got an A is physics). I have been really worried about reloads/Kb! issues/case failures.

one thing I have determined = KB DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING. ITS SHORT FOR KABOOM WHICH YOU SEE IN CARTOONS. It is a total failure to describe real problems with guns. Someone who obviously did not fully understand and evaluate problems(edit: major hince on problemS plural as in more than 1).

and Glock owners should no have fears. Just practice safe shooting and everything is ok.

This post was extremely helpful to me and I think a full read took me over a half hour.

another late edit: Sorry about my angst about "Kb" but I really feel like it only adds confusion. As someone who just became seriously interested in glocks I found this almost offensive. I did lots of research of reloads and this supposid kaboom. Forum searching before I figured out it was "Kb" I did not get much info.... anyways... why add such confusion? why cant we just say fire o-o-b, case failure, barrel failure, etc...?

frank23185
11-30-2007, 18:53
...................

rmgunsmith
02-07-2008, 16:09
I recently experienced my Glock 20 KB after sucessfully firing four full magazines of both factory PMC loads and custom loads from my shop. When it happened the magazine shot straight out, the Wolff recoil spriing and one pice guide rod launched 20 feet, along with some of the polymer frame. The fram was cracked almost in half and the new Storm Lake barrel was split the entire length on the underside. The barrel tried to blow as the front of the slide was bowed.

My hand felt this sharp pain, especially in my trigger finger, which turned black, and hurt like heck. My right hand went numb briefly, but after two weeks there appears to be no physical lasting damage.

I have sent the Glock 20 back to Davidsons who is forwarding on to Glock. My sales rep at Davidsons said he had never seen anything like it and wondered how I kept from being injured.

I talked with a Glock representative at the 2008 Shot Show, who sounded positive that Glock would probably replace it.

I see from your post that they did even with an aftermarket barrel. Thanks for the encouragment.




I only shoot my reloads. Years ago, there was an old ordnance officer who posted on GT and, before GT, on UGW. Can't remember the guys' name, but he thought the .40 was poorly conceived and designed.

My personal believe is that shortening a case that works well (10mm) and using the same bullet weights dramatically decrease the margin for error when reloading. Also, just don't have any place in my "arsenal" for .40. I'm pretty happy with 9mm and .45ACP. I've done a lot of experimenting with .400 Cor-Bon and .40 Super, without having to change platforms.

To reiterate: If Glock's design were flawed in such a manner as to cause KB's, then we'd be hearing of tens of thousands of KB's, not the few that are posted on this and other websites. Ol' Occam even works with Glocks. ;)

duck: Thanks to Glock's design, I suffered no damage from my REAL KB. Felt like I'd hit my trigger finger with a hammer, and I was afraid to look at my hand, as I expected to see part of my finger missing. Looked at finger and it was black, then I was afraid to clean the "black" off, for fear of seeing bone, mangled flesh, etc. Didn't even have a bruise!

As I've posted in the past, I was pleasantly surprised that Glock/Smyrna took care of me, even though I was using an aftermarket barrel with reloaded ammo.

Thanks for the interest and opinions expressed in this thread. I'd bet Ol' Pepper against a DemocRAT's brain (something valuable v. something worthless) that a "certain" specious website only quotes GT'ers who are on my infamous Ignore List, when discussing KB's and GT. ;) That rates a big ol' "hardehardeharharhar!" ;)

If G21's had "design flaws", wouldn't you think that I'd have had a problem by now, having fired over 100,000 rounds of my reloads through my G21's?? Some folks, of course, are offended by rational thought and "critical thinking skills." ;)

Arc Angel
02-07-2008, 17:32
:freak: Not that anybody cares; but, according to the guy who invented the term, it ain't, 'KB'; and it ain't, 'KB!'. Instead it's, 'kB!' or, 'kaBoom!'

I've done a pretty good job of intentionally avoiding this thread for the past 3 years. I will now, however, venture an opinion: I think that English's thinking is closer to what's actually going on than anything else I read. IMO, there is more to the picture, though, than currently meets the eye!

I, also, think that the newly discovered phenomenon of, 'Glock frame harmonics' is involved: e.g.; The Haddon Heights, NJ; and Albuquerque, NM 40 caliber Glock problems along with the subsequent changes that Glock made to the frames of recently manufactured 40 caliber pistols.

Personally, I think that Austrian Engineer's comments on G-22 performance AND frame harmonics go a long way toward understanding exactly, 'What' is happening. I, also, find English's other comment on, 'primer smears' to be interesting.

As I type this I'm wondering what happens when a barrel firing a high speed AND high pressure bullet begins to tilt at the exact instant that primer ignition takes place? Of course, I don't know anymore than anyone else on this board. I'm just speculating by offering an additional hypothesis for further consideration. So far, nobody has offered a demonstrable or definitive explanation for Glock 40 caliber, 'kaBooms!'; and, believe me, neither am I.

Just thinking out loud, that's all. :)

shotgunred
03-02-2008, 12:06
My own experience with a G22 and my early .40 reloads - I was loading 180 FMJ over AA5 powder (I forget the charge weight now). My wife was shooting my G22, and out of the corner of my eye I saw a flash larger than normal, not coming from the muzzle, but from the middle of the pistol, right behind the breech area.



Chamber area had cracks on both sides with the case head blown out at the 6:00 (the dreaded unsupported area) and no primer in the case. Did not get the 'classic' barrel peel, though ;f


I have long since changed my reloading habits and no longer use 180gr bullets or that fast a powder in 40. I still carry that same G22 (obviously fixed since then), and have shot many hundreds, if not thousands of my reloads through it (with an aftermarket barrel) and my G35 with factory barrel. Not as many of my reloads thru a G27 & G23 with factory barrels with no ill effects.

I firmly believe, but have no real desire to test that belief, that even with a "fully supported chamber", the same thing would have happened, though maybe not the blow-out at 6.

I have had two events with my glock 23. Both of them involving aa#5.
I bough my 23 when they first came out. I preordered it before they were available. At the time AA#5 was the recommended powder for reloading. I now have two cases of the stuff on a shelf. It may have its uses but I wouldn’t use it for my glock ever again.

First time damaged the barrel. I found a small crack on were the chamber meets the barrel.
Second time the side of the bullet case (unsupported spot) blew out and took the ejector with it.
I don’t believe that either time was the guns fault. I think it is an issue of AA#5 burning too fast with 180 grains of lead and the pressures that causes.

TexanGlockFanatic
12-06-2008, 21:29
Howdy everyone. I am new to this forum but I have read some of this thread. I had a KB a week ago. I purchased my third Glock on Nov. 21 (2 - 9mm and now a 45). It is a Glock 36. I had fired about 70 - 80 rounds of Winchester target ammo. I then loaded 5 rounds of some self defense ammo that I have (I use the same brand in my Glock 26 and have fired at least 50 - 60 of this brand in the Glock 26 before) in my Glock 36 and let the slide ram home. It was fully in battery. The first round I fired blew out at the bottom of the case, the magazine, broke the trigger, and the magazine release, and made the polymer frame swell.

I have called the ammo company - RBCD in San Antonio, Texas and they had me ship the gun and some of the ammo to them. The day they received it, they called me and said they would not repair my gun as the ammo is to be used only in fully supported chambers. The ammo company's website said this: "RBCD Performance Plus - Handgun /Rifle Ammunition has the highest velocity of any commercially available ammunition, at Standard Pressure Levels (never Plus P or higher pressure levels)." It also says this: "The Ammunition loaded by RBCD Performance Plus, Inc. is manufactured with new cartridge cases, powders and primers designed to SAAMI and our strict and exacting specifications. Always at Standard Pressure Levels (never Plus P or higher pressure levels)."

So they shipped the gun back to me b/c they would not fix it and I argued with them on the phone and there was nothing they were going to do. Here are pictures of the gun and case that blew out the side.


http://www.jamesschroeder.net/albums/Guns/100_1586.thumb.jpg


http://www.jamesschroeder.net/albums/Guns/100_1577.thumb.jpg
Broke magazine release and trigger

http://www.jamesschroeder.net/albums/Guns/100_1589.thumb.jpg
Frame buldging

http://www.jamesschroeder.net/albums/Guns/100_1601.thumb.jpg
Crack in frame on both sides of gun around the mag. release



So the gun is off to Glock but they say they won't pay for repairs as it is an ammo issue. :-(

James

bluejdixon
12-19-2008, 10:30
could you have possibly posted smaller photos?

TexanGlockFanatic
12-23-2008, 21:51
could you have possibly posted smaller photos?


They are just links off my website. They are much smaller here than on the website so maybe it is something with Glocktalk. However, you can check it out at www.jamesschroeder.net/gallery/Guns and see bigger pics.

bluejdixon
12-23-2008, 21:58
Holy crap! So glad you got to keep your digits.... wow!

TexanGlockFanatic
12-26-2008, 16:38
Holy crap! So glad you got to keep your digits.... wow!


I was very blessed that I only had a couple of blisters and sore palms!

The ammo company will not fix it through some legal jargon and so it is at Glock. They have said they will not fix it under warranty as it was an ammo issue, but I have sent a letter asking them to put pressure on the ammo company with me so we will see what they say.

erichodges
02-25-2009, 11:27
FWIW According to the Yahoo finacial profile of Glock the number of pistols is over 2.5 Million.



googling for 5 minutes yielded me roughly the same results

bdc
03-15-2009, 10:00
Walters original definition of a Glock KB is flawed. Simplified, he states that unintended pyrotechnic events occurring inside a pistol are non-significant events if they only damage plastic parts or human beings.

In a Post-Glock world, such bigotry favoring steel above all other is unacceptable and should be challenged on moral grounds.

In the eyes of the Almighty: Steel, plastic and human beings are all dense materials!

nraman
04-11-2009, 14:31
I'd like to share my opinion on KBs. I have owned a number of Glocks in many calibers and reloaded for all of them. I examined and compared the 9mm chambers of G17, G26 against 9mm Berettas and IMHO the Glock chamber is as tight or most likely tighter considering that I had to modify the shell holder plate in my reloading press to size the cases a little more for the Glock. I believe the reason is that a 9mm Luger round is European designed and was tapered to promote reliable feeding. Tight barrels work fine.
The .40, 10mm and .45 were designed in the US where it is customary to design cartridges with straight walls. Such cartridges will require a looser chamber to maintain feeding reliability. In the case of the .40, they made the chamber walls thinner than the 9mm (to make it fit the 9mm frame?).
All of the above have looser chambers than other makes, the 45 being the worst, hardly any support at 6 o'clock. If it was not for the low chamber pressure, it would be the one to watch.
When I had a G20, I used to look for once fired brass. Brass fired in a G20 (identified by the primer dents) would often have a 6 o'clock bulge while brass fired in other pistols did not. A friend of mine had a Colt 1911 10mm, a chamber comparison showed that the G20 was looser.
Case caused KBs are not new, they used to happen in 1911 .45s once in a while, long before Glocks came around when somebody decided to improve reliability by throating his barrel a bit too much.
IMHO they screwed up when they designed the .40 and 10mm with a straightwall case. A tapered case would feed reliably in a nice tight chamber.

Deputy276
04-16-2009, 16:33
I just ordered a Glock 17 (my second G17, had one of the early versions a while back). I also have a SIG226 in .40S&W. I have NO worries that either pistol will function perfectly. But I won't buy a Glock in .40S&W.
That's my own preference based on observed and reported performance of the gun with both reloaded and factory ammo. It's simply not worth the risk, however minimal, to me.

techno97
05-11-2009, 05:27
I recently experienced my Glock 20 KB after sucessfully firing four full magazines of both factory PMC loads and custom loads from my shop. When it happened the magazine shot straight out, the Wolff recoil spriing and one pice guide rod launched 20 feet, along with some of the polymer frame. The fram was cracked almost in half and the new Storm Lake barrel was split the entire length on the underside. The barrel tried to blow as the front of the slide was bowed.

My hand felt this sharp pain, especially in my trigger finger, which turned black, and hurt like heck. My right hand went numb briefly, but after two weeks there appears to be no physical lasting damage.

I have sent the Glock 20 back to Davidsons who is forwarding on to Glock. My sales rep at Davidsons said he had never seen anything like it and wondered how I kept from being injured.

I talked with a Glock representative at the 2008 Shot Show, who sounded positive that Glock would probably replace it.

I see from your post that they did even with an aftermarket barrel. Thanks for the encouragment.


I recently experienced 3 case failures in the last month while using my G21SF that has really got me looking into my entire reloading process as all three events only occured when I started reloading for myself. Hence, I have no one else to blame save myself.

Having said the same, I can't help but say that GLOCKS are really sturdy and reliable as the damage to my favorite G21SF remained nominal in all three kb experiences. The damages to my glock during the respective events were as follows:

1st Kb - 25 April 2009 - Slide release (standard) which broke in half, trigger (not entire assembly) which cracked and broke in the middle horizontally, and some chip to the frame near the center bracket that has no use whatsoever.

2nd Kb - 2 May 2009 - Magazine release catch (where the part that sticks out from the opposite side of the mag release button broke off), trigger (again), and polymer opening of magazine.

3rd Kb - 10 May 2009 - Trigger, trigger bar (that tip of the trigger bar that rubs with the safety plunger broke off), and shattered Magazine Follower.

techno97
05-11-2009, 05:34
I recently experienced my Glock 20 KB after sucessfully firing four full magazines of both factory PMC loads and custom loads from my shop. When it happened the magazine shot straight out, the Wolff recoil spriing and one pice guide rod launched 20 feet, along with some of the polymer frame. The fram was cracked almost in half and the new Storm Lake barrel was split the entire length on the underside. The barrel tried to blow as the front of the slide was bowed.

My hand felt this sharp pain, especially in my trigger finger, which turned black, and hurt like heck. My right hand went numb briefly, but after two weeks there appears to be no physical lasting damage.

I have sent the Glock 20 back to Davidsons who is forwarding on to Glock. My sales rep at Davidsons said he had never seen anything like it and wondered how I kept from being injured.

I talked with a Glock representative at the 2008 Shot Show, who sounded positive that Glock would probably replace it.

I see from your post that they did even with an aftermarket barrel. Thanks for the encouragment.


I recently experienced 3 case failures in the last month while using my G21SF that has really got me looking into my entire reloading process as all three events only occured when I started reloading for myself. Hence, I have no one else to blame save myself.

Having said the same, I can't help but say that GLOCKS are really sturdy and reliable as the damage to my favorite G21SF remained nominal in all three kb experiences. The damages to my glock during the respective events were as follows:

1st Kb - 25 April 2009 - Slide release (standard) which broke in half, trigger (not entire assembly) which cracked and broke in the middle horizontally, and some chip to the frame near the center bracket that has no use whatsoever.

2nd Kb - 2 May 2009 - Magazine release catch (where the part that sticks out from the opposite side of the mag release button broke off), trigger (again), and polymer opening of magazine.

3rd Kb - 10 May 2009 - Trigger, trigger bar (that tip of the trigger bar that rubs with the safety plunger broke off), and shattered Magazine Follower.

apart from the foregoing, no other visible or operational parts seemed to be damaged. Sadly though, due to the unavailability of spare parts in our country, and having bought the last trigger bar assembly available after my 1st kb, the trigger I'm using (as I did during the last kb) is but a superglued trigger from remains of both triggers I wrecked. (Hoping that my GF would be able to get me one before her departure from Europe this month as no news of any replacement parts to arrive here in the Philippines any time soon).

Anyway, and more importantly, to those who may experience the same, do make sure to have your hands go through an x-ray just to make sure that no shrapnel remains in the same, particularly if you should experience any wound of any kind (and no matter how small). Coz during the said events, I did suffer a bleeding hand during the 1st kb, and albeit having no pain whatsoever, the x-ray revealed shrapnels in my hand which the Doctor had to remove through minor surgery. (will post pics of the shrapnel later).

Just a bit of advice that may save your hand/life.

nraman
05-20-2009, 21:18
But I won't buy a Glock in .40S&W.
That's my own preference based on observed and reported performance of the gun with both reloaded and factory ammo. It's simply not worth the risk, however minimal, to me.

Our local police department uses the G22C, I have not heard of a single KB.
I own a 22C and use mostly factory, never lead.

Deputy276
05-21-2009, 07:59
Our local police department uses the G22C, I have not heard of a single KB.
I own a 22C and use mostly factory, never lead.

Doesn't matter whether you use relaods or factory loads, lead or FMJ, KABOOMS have been reported in all of them.

bluejdixon
05-21-2009, 13:37
I too own a 22C, and its been nothing but a champion.

Deputy276
05-21-2009, 16:00
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

gary newport
05-21-2009, 18:32
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

Pity Walter isn't around....

AustinTx
05-25-2009, 16:33
Deputy276
I have read that info more than once. It really does contain some good advice and I believe their info is documented. IOW no lies were posted. I reckon some can't stand the truth. Glock tries to fix every problem, in secret and never admit that there was any kind of problem, to begin with. I still like my Glock 9s, 40s & 357s and they are plural.

I personally believe that most KBs are caused by the popularity of progressive reloading equipment being made cheap enough for them to be in widespread use.

Deputy276
05-25-2009, 16:38
Austin: Don't get me wrong...I LIKE the heck out of my Glock 17 and 26. It's just my personal choice to not go with the .40S&W in Glocks.

The reasons for Kabooms seems to be as numerous as the Glock models :supergrin:
I tend to think the lack of adequate chamber support might be the main problem. I'm wondering how many people have switched to supported chamber barrels and had Kaboom problems with them??? :dunno:

AustinTx
05-25-2009, 17:01
Deputy276
I fully understand your feeling about the 40s. I use 357 for CCW, but I do own 3 Glock 40s.

nraman
05-25-2009, 21:04
I think that there is some justified confusion about KBs and their cause.
I believe there are two types.
Type 1. The supported part of the case lets go. Possible reasons, chamber design that does not provide enough support, fired out of battery.
Type 2. Part of the chamber or the whole chamber and part of the barrel fail and the barrel splits in half. This condition has nothing to do with how well the case is supported, it has to do with the ability of the barrel to contain the pressure. Either the pressure is too high due to faulty ammunition or obstruction or other pressure related issue, or the barrel itself is not capable of handling pressures it should due to the barrel steel, thickness or its heat treatment.
I think that other than 9mm Glocks can have both issues. Not enough support and thin wall chambers.

Deputy276
05-25-2009, 21:17
I think that other than 9mm Glocks can have both issues. Not enough support and thin wall chambers.

You might want to check the sidebar to that link I provided. There are at least two cases of 9MM Kabooms in Glocks. One in a Glock 19 using gunshow reloads and one in a Model 34 using factory ammo.

Ryobi
05-26-2009, 12:11
Catastrophic failures, frequently referred to on the internet as "KB's" are no more common in .40 caliber guns or glocks than those from other manufacturers and other chamberings. Double charged rounds can and have destroyed a number of guns, not just glocks.

Deputy276
05-26-2009, 13:52
Catastrophic failures, frequently referred to on the internet as "KB's" are no more common in .40 caliber guns or glocks than those from other manufacturers and other chamberings. Double charged rounds can and have destroyed a number of guns, not just glocks.

Interesting opinion. I'd sure like to know how you formed it and what figures you use to back it up. Here's some feedback based on verifiable facts:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/hhnj.html

Ryobi
05-26-2009, 14:01
Direct experience.

gary newport
05-26-2009, 14:06
Austin: Don't get me wrong...I LIKE the heck out of my Glock 17 and 26. It's just my personal choice to not go with the .40S&W in Glocks.

The reasons for Kabooms seems to be as numerous as the Glock models :supergrin:
I tend to think the lack of adequate chamber support might be the main problem. I'm wondering how many people have switched to supported chamber barrels and had Kaboom problems with them??? :dunno:

Lack of chamber support may increase the chances for a case failure in the presence of other conditions (old or defective case, somewhat excessive pressure), but a case failure is not a catastrophic over-pressure even resulting in a "blowed-up" gun! Speir can't tell the difference between these two events; Walter could. I suggest reading Walter's analysis at the beginning of this thread for an enlightened discussion of these two phenomena.

Revolvers have plenty of case support. They blow up when subjected to severe over-pressure. The range I attend most frequently has three such revolvers in a display case--two N-frame Smiths and a bull-strong Ruger single-action--all showing mangled metal and split cylinders.

gary newport
05-26-2009, 14:10
Interesting opinion. I'd sure like to know how you formed it and what figures you use to back it up. Here's some feedback based on verifiable facts:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/hhnj.html

Facts...or hearsay?

If I want facts about blowing up Glocks, I'll check with Mark Passaneck, a forensics engineer who blew up a Glock unintentionally and then went on to blow some up deliberately under controlled conditions. You may find his results highly informative.

Passaneck summarizes his research in Robin Taylor's book, The Glock in Competition (2nd ed.), a book I'd recommend for many other reasons.

Deputy276
05-26-2009, 14:24
The Glocks in my link were malfunctioning with FACTORY AMMO..not reloads or hot loads. You can believe whoever you like and stick your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la, but police departments DON'T have a hidden agenda for not wanting Glocks. Read the sidebar. ISP dumped their Glock 22s in favor of the Glock 17. It's not anti-Glock that's the issue...just defective guns. It's not just 22s blowing up, it's stovepipes and failures to eject.

http://www.tribstar.com/local/local_story_102231432.html

Defective state police guns to be replaced
The Tribune-Star Published: April 12, 2006 11:14 pm <!-- icons -->

Indiana State Police will receive new Glock 9 mm handguns as a result of functional problems with their current Glock 40-caliber handguns.

About 50 guns that were identified as dysfunctional through a manufacturer defect will be replaced, said Indiana State Police Sgt. Joe Watts.

The manufacturer is replacing the guns at no cost to State Police, Watts said.

No timeline has been set for when the new handguns will arrive. When they arrive, police will be trained on their use.

State troopers can carry one of the new, replaced handguns or the gun previously carried, a Beretta 40-caliber, he said.

Last year, State Police replaced their old Berettas with the new Glocks.
<!-- icons -->

nraman
05-26-2009, 14:24
You might want to check the sidebar to that link I provided. There are at least two cases of 9MM Kabooms in Glocks. One in a Glock 19 using gunshow reloads and one in a Model 34 using factory ammo.

Any gun, any caliber can KB for a variety of reasons. I don't believe there is a problem with the 9mm Glocks.

gary newport
05-26-2009, 14:42
The Glocks in my link were malfunctioning with FACTORY AMMO..not reloads or hot loads. You can believe whoever you like and stick your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la, but police departments DON'T have a hidden agenda for not wanting Glocks. Read the sidebar. ISP dumped their Glock 22s in favor of the Glock 17. It's not anti-Glock that's the issue...just defective guns. It's not just 22s blowing up, it's stovepipes and failures to eject.

http://www.tribstar.com/local/local_story_102231432.html

Defective state police guns to be replaced
The Tribune-Star Published: April 12, 2006 11:14 pm <!-- icons -->

Indiana State Police will receive new Glock 9 mm handguns as a result of functional problems with their current Glock 40-caliber handguns.

About 50 guns that were identified as dysfunctional through a manufacturer defect will be replaced, said Indiana State Police Sgt. Joe Watts.

The manufacturer is replacing the guns at no cost to State Police, Watts said.

No timeline has been set for when the new handguns will arrive. When they arrive, police will be trained on their use.

State troopers can carry one of the new, replaced handguns or the gun previously carried, a Beretta 40-caliber, he said.

Last year, State Police replaced their old Berettas with the new Glocks.
<!-- icons -->

Umm, overloaded factory ammo happens too. One agency lost a couple of .45 GAP Glocks to over-pressure rounds from Speer. Speer acknowledged the problem.

And this thread is NOT about "stovepipes and failures to eject!"

Deputy276
05-26-2009, 14:43
Any gun, any caliber can KB for a variety of reasons. I don't believe there is a problem with the 9mm.

Believe what you want...

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19-kb.html

Both the Model 19 and Model 34 have had Kabooms. The Model 19 with reloads and the Model 34 with factory ammo.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19_topless.html

Deputy276
05-26-2009, 14:45
Umm, overloaded factory ammo happens too. One agency lost a couple of .45 GAP Glocks to over-pressure rounds from Speer. Speer acknowledged the problem.

And this thread is NOT about "stovepipes and failures to eject!"

I see...so it's ALWAYS the ammo's fault. :upeyes:

Where is that dang Kool-Aid jug???? :supergrin:

gary newport
05-26-2009, 14:52
Believe what you want...

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19-kb.html

Both the Model 19 and Model 34 have had Kabooms. The Model 19 with reloads and the Model 34 with factory ammo.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19_topless.html

The last of those links has nothing to do with "Kabooms!" It is about a broken slide lock lever spring in a G19. I've seen that with G19s which had the old wasp-waist spring. I've alos experienced three failures of that spring in my old G30 (which did not have wasp-waist springs; the failures, all of which happened early on in my experience with the G30 and are likely a result of sloppy field-stripping/reassembly of the weapon). If that spring breaks, the slide does NOT depart from the frame unless and until you pull the trigger on an empty chamber! As long as you insert a loaded magazine every time the slide locks back you can keep shooting until the cows come home!

gary newport
05-26-2009, 14:53
I see...so it's ALWAYS the ammo's fault. :upeyes:

Where is that dang Kool-Aid jug???? :supergrin:

You'll find it over there, next to Passamaneck's empirical analysis! :supergrin:

nraman
05-26-2009, 15:17
Believe what you want...

There is a picture of a KB case to the right of the article. The primer strike seems to be high. This could be a normal or it could be an indication of out of battery KB. The case failed at the 4 o'clock position, when the most common area of failure is the 6 o'clock, again out of battery indication.
Just a thought.

Deputy276
05-26-2009, 16:40
There is a picture of a KB case to the right of the article. The primer strike seems to be high. This could be a normal or it could be an indication of out of battery KB. The case failed at the 4 o'clock position, when the most common area of failure is the 6 o'clock, again out of battery indication.
Just a thought.

According to the Glock people out of battery fire can't/doesn't happen. You need a stronger dose of Kool Aid :supergrin:

AustinTx
05-26-2009, 17:06
I had never heard of any make of semi-auto pistol that had cartridge cases blowing out at the 6 O'clock position, until the 40 S&W and Glocks for it, was in common use. It also happened with Glock 45 ACP but I never have seen such a failure, in a 10 mm Glock.

I think the 40 S&W is really a poor design and deserves some of the credit for KBs. The Glock chambers do seem to have less chamber support, at 6 O'clock, than other makers guns. I haven't had any problem with any of my Glock pistols.

Anyone can define a KB, anyway they perceive it, but I consider I have a KB, if hot, high pressure gas comes out of the gun anyplace, than the muzzle. Glocks are not actually "perfect" but Glock won't ever admit it. They clean up any problems and try to keep anyone from knowing about them. I have heard of more than one LE agency replacing their new Glock 40 S&W pistols with a 9mm version. Why would they do that, if there's no problem?

Modern guns are fired many more rounds, over their lifetime, than guns up to about 1950. I have known several people that probably never owned 2 full boxes of ammo, for their guns. They just plain didn't have the money for that and I mean a box of 22rf. I have bought 12 gauge buckshot by the 5 each out of a broken box of 25, at hardware stores.

Deputy276
05-26-2009, 18:13
I had never heard of any make of semi-auto pistol that had cartridge cases blowing out at the 6 O'clock position, until the 40 S&W and Glocks for it, was in common use. It also happened with Glock 45 ACP but I never have seen such a failure, in a 10 mm Glock.

I think the 40 S&W is really a poor design and deserves some of the credit for KBs. The Glock chambers do seem to have less chamber support, at 6 O'clock, than other makers guns. I haven't had any problem with any of my Glock pistols.

Anyone can define a KB, anyway they perceive it, but I consider I have a KB, if hot, high pressure gas comes out of the gun anyplace, than the muzzle. Glocks are not actually "perfect" but Glock won't ever admit it. They clean up any problems and try to keep anyone from knowing about them. I have heard of more than one LE agency replacing their new Glock 40 S&W pistols with a 9mm version. Why would they do that, if there's no problem?

Modern guns are fired many more rounds, over their lifetime, than guns up to about 1950. I have known several people that probably never owned 2 full boxes of ammo, for their guns. They just plain didn't have the money for that and I mean a box of 22rf. I have bought 12 gauge buckshot by the 5 each out of a broken box of 25, at hardware stores.

Well said! :thumbsup:

NEOH212
08-21-2009, 01:52
The purpose of this thread isn't to be contentious relative to this frequently misunderstood subject, but rather to offer a little rational thought and a few facts. (Particularly for the newbies who might have been influenced by the Internet Ignorami)

First, whether a pistol, eg., Glock, has a supported or unsupported chamber is generally irrelevant to the subject of KB's. While an unsupported chamber might contribute to a case failure, a case failure does not constitute a KB.

So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)

In order for a case failure @ 6 o'clock to cause a KB, one would have to accept the premise that such a failure would cause dramatic increases in chamber pressure. Does anybody really believe that a RELEASE of pressure @ 6 o'clock will increase chamber pressure? Ever take h.s. physics? If not, or if you failed h.s. physics, then perhaps you should try writing for a gunrag or sponsoring a specious internet site.

Let's use an analogy for the purposes of demonstrating the silliness of blaming lack of case support for KB's. Ever fill up an air tank? Ever wonder what happens to a steam boiler or water heater when tank pressures exceed the tanks' pressure maximums? Well, if the tank has a pop-off valve or other method of releasing pressure, not much happens. With no such relief mechanism, a lot happens, catastrophically. Get the analogy with pistol chambers? If you don't, then, well, good luck with your life.

Photos of blown-up pistols on websites prove nothing, nor make any statements about the design features of that particular blown-up pistol. The picture might just reflect the statistical quality control anomaly of a factory round, or it might indicate an overcharged reload. The posting of a picture or anecdote on the internet doesn't give one any facts at all regarding KB's. (Even if the photos are of G21's blown up by police officers)

There are, I believe, over 2 million Glocks alive and well worldwide. If, as is claimed by the uninformed, Glock's design causes Glocks to randomly explode, then we'd certainly be hearing of more than just a few random cases of exploded Glocks on the internet. Nope, if design flaws were the problem, we'd be seeing tens of thousands of blown-up Glocks, government-demanded recalls, and not just the few "examples" that are posted here-and-there.

Now for my own anecdote. I've fired somewhere in the vicinity of 150,000 rounds of my reloads through my Glocks, mostly through G21's. Matt, of CGR, and others, have fired many times more of their reloads through their Glocks than I have through mine. I reload my .45ACP's until the necks split. I've never even had a 6 o'clock case failure, let alone a KB, using a factory Glock barrel.

I did experience a KB with my original G21 (see photo), using an aftermarket barrel, powder that was too fast, bullet that was too heavy, and a little of my own carelessness mixed in. Clearly had a feedramp bullet setback, with the expected KB. Please note that the case is split down its entire length. If this had been a 6 o'clock blowout, the case would only have failed @ 6 o'clock.

Glocks are among the safest pistols in use today. They are not subject to an abnormal risk of KB. If you overcharge, or, especially, doublecharge a round or use an overcharged or doublecharged factory round, your pistol, regardless of manufacturer, will probably KB.

It's as simple as that.

Oh man! You just took away all of the fun from all of the Glock bashers by telling it like it actually is! :cheers::agree:

AustinTx
08-22-2009, 16:21
WalterGa definition of a KB.
So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)

AustinTx definition of a KB.
Anyone can define a KB, anyway they perceive it, but I consider I have a KB, if hot, high pressure gas comes out of the gun anyplace, than the muzzle.


I don't want to have either kind, of KB or whatever you care to call it.

myglockisa23
08-23-2009, 18:46
I saw a KB at Conyers several years ago... I'll try to find the pictures we took.... it was G23 with reloads...damaged barrel and frame....

Deputy276
08-23-2009, 21:48
I saw a KB at Conyers several years ago... I'll try to find the pictures we took.... it was G23 with reloads...damaged barrel and frame....

IMPOSSIBLE!!! We have numerous post that insist they are "PERFECT"!!! :rofl:

AustinTx: to quote an infamous ex-President...."it all depends on what "is" is". :supergrin:

techno97
09-01-2009, 15:16
At the end of the day and objectively speaking, KBs are really about bad ammo/reloads and/or lack of proper maintenance.

By the way, re fully supported barrels, well, I recently acquired a barsto barrel for my G21SF and while testing out some loads I recently made, I came across two loads that was obviously overcharged (got mixed up with some old/discarded loads), the same having registered a 1200 fps and 1100++ fps respectively. Given my past experiences narrated in the first page of this thread, I do believe that if I then was using my original/factory barrel, I would have experienced another KB. However, and to my great satisfaction, instead of the shell blowing up, what I experienced was but a gigantic "recoil" which actually broke my two handed grip, the gun jumping towards the right and back. Hence, with respect to supported and unsupported barrels, I do believe that there really is a difference especially with respect to the barrel chamber's "tightness" :)

Deputy276
09-01-2009, 17:23
At the end of the day and objectively speaking, KBs are really about bad ammo/reloads and/or lack of proper maintenance.



That's you opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. But I sure don't agree. There are just too many instances of the Glock .40S&W Kabooming using a wide variety of ammo for it to be bad ammo. And I don't get the "lack of proper maintenance" comment at all. Glocks are famous for needing minimal maintenance. Maybe if you dunked the barrel in oil and tried to shoot it, you could use that excuse. Otherwise, I don't buy it.

tpaw
09-11-2009, 23:07
So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both.

I could not agree more, but we need to hear from a broad consensus of Glock owners who have had KB's in order to get a more universal opinion, not just yours.
Although many point their finger at the .40, I'm sure KB's have occured in other Glock calibers, and they have. It would be interesting to hear what experiences others have had regarding KB's, and the calibers involved.

myg30
09-13-2009, 08:53
That's you opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. But I sure don't agree. There are just too many instances of the Glock .40S&W Kabooming using a wide variety of ammo for it to be bad ammo. And I don't get the "lack of proper maintenance" comment at all. Glocks are famous for needing minimal maintenance. Maybe if you dunked the barrel in oil and tried to shoot it, you could use that excuse. Otherwise, I don't buy it.

I think the lack of maintenance means to clean the lead out of the barrel.
To much build up can and will cause a failure and increase in pressure that will vent from everywhere other than the barrel.[read this on the first page].
Pistol rounds chamber on the edge of the brass case. Lead buildup may not allow the case to seat fully but Glocks are not suppose to fire out of battery.
I choose to keep mine clean especially after shooting lots of lead.
There are those of us that keep our cars and trucks sparkling clean even
when we drive them every day. The rest of us keep our guns clean but might not shoot them once a month!

Deputy276
09-13-2009, 10:17
I think the lack of maintenance means to clean the lead out of the barrel.
To much build up can and will cause a failure and increase in pressure that will vent from everywhere other than the barrel.[read this on the first page].
Pistol rounds chamber on the edge of the brass case. Lead buildup may not allow the case to seat fully but Glocks are not suppose to fire out of battery.
I choose to keep mine clean especially after shooting lots of lead.
There are those of us that keep our cars and trucks sparkling clean even
when we drive them every day. The rest of us keep our guns clean but might not shoot them once a month!

Many of the Kabooms were experienced with jacketed ammo. No lead is involved there. The Glock was designed for military purposes using FMJ bullets. They can shoot many thousands of them with NO maintenance.
I NEVER use lead for any of my semi-autos. To do so means you take your chances and suffer the consequences. The tradeoff of cheaper ammo is risk of destroying your gun. Something I won't chance.

unclecharlie
09-20-2009, 20:34
Okay, so it (very rarely) happens with .40 cal. How about with .45GAP? Personally, I LIKE the availability and price of .40- over .45GAP, anyway- but I'll bite on the kB issue. Is it worth the hassle of going to a different caliber? Asking because I'm partial to the compact Glock sizes, they just fit my hand best and do everything I need well. And as good as the 9mm is, I have to compensate a little; I'm a small guy with a small package. I need a bigger bullet.http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/embarass%20.gif

BTW, anybody want to trade a new or like-new 23 for my like-new 29?

Deputy276
09-21-2009, 12:57
I haven't heard of any Kabooms in .45GAP. And the 9MM seems to have the least number of Kabooms of the regular calibers.

SHOOTER629
01-01-2010, 23:42
I had to research this KB years ago and found, the officer was using reloads that had a larger charge then recommended.Any gun today can KB, with the right mix of powder, double-charge etc.

atxjax
10-25-2010, 07:18
awesome info here. Thanks for the read.

rottglocken
11-16-2010, 06:58
I had to research this KB years ago and found, the officer was using reloads that had a larger charge then recommended.Any gun today can KB, with the right mix of powder, double-charge etc.

What does that picture of a FiveseveN have to do with the 45 kB?

AustinTx
11-16-2010, 23:54
What does that picture of a FiveseveN have to do with the 45 kB?

Like it has been said, I think someone screwed up.

rottglocken
11-17-2010, 07:52
Sorry. Did not see that anyone had mentioned it.

ElrodCod
11-17-2010, 08:49
I had a "case failure" in two guns; one was a Colt 1911 & the other a SIG 220. The grips were shattered on the Colt & the remaining round in the magazine were jammed down. The mag was ruined but the gun was ok. A similar event happened with the SIG except that the gun was ruined because the aluminum receiver bulged and split open. Those events were KB's as far as I'm concerned dispite the OP's contention otherwise.

Arc Angel
12-05-2010, 19:22
You know, I've waited for more than six years to answer this post. I thought to answer it when it first came out; but, at the time, I was fully aware that to do so would have caused an emotional, 'firestorm' among impassioned owner/admirers.

So, I very deliberately decided to remain silent. Now I'm thinking that if I owe Glock Talk one last post, this is it. So, here goes:

'First, whether a pistol, eg., (SIC) Glock, has a supported or unsupported chamber is generally irrelevant to the subject of KB's. (SIC) While an unsupported chamber might contribute to a case failure, a case failure does not constitute a KB. (SIC)'

Incorrect. If supported or unsupported chambers did not contribute to Glock kB!'s then a steady progression of tighter and tighter chamber mouths would not be evident throughout subsequent generations of Glock pistols.

Incorrect, again. A case failure, if it is significant enough, can certainly cause a kB!.

'So, what's a KB, (SIC) then? Well, to me, a KB (SIC) results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)'

Incorrect. The key phrase here is, 'to me'. It relegates everything that follows to a subjective context. Furthermore, the originator of the expression, 'kaBoom!' would (I am sure.) never agree to such a narrow definition.

'In order for a case failure @ 6 o'clock to cause a KB, (SIC) one would have to accept the premise that such a failure would cause dramatic increases in chamber pressure. Does anybody really believe that a RELEASE of pressure @ 6 o'clock will increase chamber pressure? Ever take h.s. physics? If not, or if you failed h.s. physics, then perhaps you should try writing for a gunrag (SIC) or sponsoring a specious internet site.'

Incorrect. This remark is contrived in such a way as to be a convoluted slam at Dean Speir. ANY sudden release of case pressure, at any location other than the case mouth, can - I am certain - cause a kaBoom! event.

'Let's use an analogy for the purposes of demonstrating the silliness of blaming lack of case support for KB's. (SIC) Ever fill up an air tank? Ever wonder what happens to a steam boiler or water heater when tank pressures exceed the tanks' pressure maximums? Well, if the tank has a pop-off valve or other method of releasing pressure, not much happens. With no such relief mechanism, a lot happens, catastrophically. Get the analogy with pistol chambers? If you don't, then, well, good luck with your life.'

Incorrect. The above is a classic example of an illogical non-sequitur. (I prefer to call specious logic like this, 'mental diarrhea'.)

'Photos of blown-up pistols on websites prove nothing, nor make any statements about the design features of that particular blown-up pistol. The picture might just reflect the statistical quality control anomaly of a factory round, or it might indicate an overcharged reload. The posting of a picture or anecdote on the internet doesn't give one any facts at all regarding KB's. (SIC) (Even if the photos are of G21's blown up by police officers)'

This premise is arguable; and, an opposite situation or opinion would be, equally, as valid. Neither premise is capable of producing a preponderance of irrefutable evidence - Period.

'There are, I believe, over 2 million Glocks alive and well worldwide. If, as is claimed by the uninformed, Glock's design causes Glocks to randomly explode, then we'd certainly be hearing of more than just a few random cases of exploded Glocks on the internet. Nope, if design flaws were the problem, we'd be seeing tens of thousands of blown-up Glocks, government-demanded recalls, and not just the few "examples" that are posted here-and-there.'

Incorrect. Glocks kaBoom! more often, and for more different reasons, than any other pistol. From someone who demands a preponderance of evidence in order to prevail, this laissez-faire acceptance of what amounts to little more than unsubstantiated technical innuendo is rather surprising - if not prejudicial.

In my experience: If Glock pistols are anything, at all, they are, 'works in progress'. Consequently, one of Glock's outstanding physical characteristics is, for lack of a better word, 'inconsistency'.

Some Glock pistols do this; and other Glock pistols do that. Besides, Glock, GmbH has quietly settled so many lawsuits that it is extremely difficult to know just how broad this problem actually is?

It is, however, 'a large number' that has clearly been litigated rather than enforced by any government fiat. Lucky for Glock, GmbH - Huh!)

'Now for my own anecdote. I've fired somewhere in the vicinity of 150,000 rounds of my reloads through my Glocks, mostly through G21's. Matt, of CGR, and others, have fired many times more of their reloads through their Glocks than I have through mine. I reload my .45ACP's until the necks split. I've never even had a 6 o'clock case failure, let alone a KB, using a factory Glock barrel.'

So what! One of the first things I ever learned about my brand new G-21's - You know, the Glock pistols with the sporadically defective #4256 trigger bars - was that, if you wanted to prevent them from blowing up in your hand, they had to be very carefully custom-tuned.

In fact, in order to continue safely running my early third generation Glock 21's, over a 3 or 4 year period-of-time, I was forced to become a knowledgeable (and still uncertified) Glock armorer. (Just like the author of the commentary I'm presently critiquing.)

When it came to successfully running one of my Model 21's, knowing how to custom-tune them made all the difference between safe and unsafe operation. By the way, my own round count is, also, in the tens of thousands. Again, so what!

'I did experience a KB (SIC) with my original G21 (see photo), using an aftermarket barrel, powder that was too fast, bullet that was too heavy, and a little of my own carelessness mixed in. Clearly had a feedramp (SIC) bullet setback, with the expected KB. (SIC) Please note that the case is split down its entire length. If this had been a 6 o'clock blowout, the case would only have failed @ 6 o'clock.'

And, the point is ...... ? This colorful personal anecdote is strictly an emotional appeal that validates absolutely nothing.

'Glocks are among the safest pistols in use today. They are not subject to an abnormal risk of KB. (SIC) If you overcharge, or, especially, doublecharge (SIC) a round or use an overcharged or doublecharged (SIC) factory round, your pistol, regardless of manufacturer, will probably KB. (SIC) It's as simple as that.'

No, it's not, 'as simple' as that. When the author wrote his original article, he was completely ignorant about a unique operating characteristic of all polymer frame pistols: One subsequently identified by Glock, GmbH as, 'frame harmonics'.

'Frame harmonics' is a polymer pistol frame operating phenomenon that - to the best of my knowledge - I am the first member of this board to, either, mention or post any suspicions about.

At the time, the reaction of the general membership was, 'dead silence'; and, it took the Glock factory, itself, more than another year before they were finally ready to publicly admit this unique operating characteristic of polymer frame pistols.

As already stated: Glock's polymer frame pistols are, indeed, 'works in progress'. As a group, the third generation pistols - and especially the later serial number third generation pistols - are, without question, the most trouble free polymer pistols in the world.

Still, and again as I've already stated, if Glock's model lineup of polymer pistols has two outstanding physical characteristics, those characteristics would be extreme reliability AND inconsistency.

The long and the short of things is that - regardless of whatever the model number may be - if you have a Glock pistol that works, keep it.

If, however, you have a Glock pistol that does not work then attribute it to a, 'learning curve' - Either: your own, or someone else's. (It's, kind 'a, like being part of a great industrial experiment - Isn't it!)

rottglocken
12-06-2010, 11:19
You know, I've waited for more than six years to answer this post. I thought to answer it when it first came out; but, at the time, I was fully aware that to do so would have caused an emotional, 'firestorm' among impassioned owner/admirers.


............interesting monologue/dissertation snipped..............

Interesting.

I have a very early 3rd generation G19 (before the third pin), and a very recent G23. I have trusted, and will continue to trust, my life to either of them any time I leave my home state. Until such time as one of them blows one of my fingers off. If that happens, I will whine, cry, and feel violated. And move to a lesser defensive pistol at such time.

AustinTx
12-06-2010, 22:28
'Frame harmonics' is a polymer pistol frame operating phenomenon that - to the best of my knowledge - I am the first member of this board to, either, mention or post any suspicions about.

At the time, the reaction of the general membership was, 'dead silence'; and, it took the Glock factory, itself, more than another year before they were finally ready to publicly admit this unique operating characteristic of polymer frame pistols.

As already stated: Glock's polymer frame pistols are, indeed, 'works in progress'. As a group, the third generation pistols - and especially the later serial number third generation pistols - are, without question, the most trouble free polymer pistols in the world.

Still, and again as I've already stated, if Glock's model lineup of polymer pistols has two outstanding physical characteristics, those characteristics would be extreme reliability AND inconsistency.

The long and the short of things is that - regardless of whatever the model number may be - if you have a Glock pistol that works, keep it.

If, however, you have a Glock pistol that does not work then attribute it to a, 'learning curve' - Either: your own, or someone else's. (It's, kind 'a, like being part of a great industrial experiment - Isn't it!)

Thank you & thank you, just when I don't expect to find anything new and interesting, on GT, SHAZAAM, it happens.

'Frame harmonics' is the perfect name for the problem occurring here, IMO. I believe, if some very high speed movies were taken, of Glocks firing, we would see some strange frame shapes. I can't remember ever seeing a picture of a shell case blowing out, in the 6 O'clock chamber position, until Glock came along. It's sorta like he said, if your Glock works, keep it.

Finally, a breath of fresh air!:snoopy:

rottglocken
12-07-2010, 09:47
Thank you & thank you, just when I don't expect to find anything new and interesting, on GT, SHAZAAM, it happens.

'Frame harmonics' is the perfect name for the problem occurring here, IMO. I believe, if some very high speed movies were taken, of Glocks firing, we would see some strange frame shapes. I can't remember ever seeing a picture of a shell case blowing out, in the 6 O'clock chamber position, until Glock came along. It's sorta like he said, if your Glock works, keep it.

Finally, a breath of fresh air!:snoopy:

Ever heard of a 1911 .38 Super? I thought they used to be notorious for that.

However, things were generally better contained than on a plastic-framed pistol. And the issue even with them was too much pressure in a barrel that didn't offer enough case support. I think that is all it boils down to: chamber opened up enough to ensure reliability leaves a little too much case web unsupported. Get even a little more than a 3-sigma deviation in pressure on the high side, and you get a blow-out in the weakest area, 6 o'clock. Pressure is released into an area that is not designed to contain it, and the frame ruptures.

All that being said, I'll still stand by what I said above. But I won't be doing any kind of fiddling with my G23 unless it has an aftermarket barrel in it (with a tighter chamber).

AustinTx
12-08-2010, 19:15
Ever heard of a 1911 .38 Super? I thought they used to be notorious for that.

However, things were generally better contained than on a plastic-framed pistol. And the issue even with them was too much pressure in a barrel that didn't offer enough case support. I think that is all it boils down to: chamber opened up enough to ensure reliability leaves a little too much case web unsupported. Get even a little more than a 3-sigma deviation in pressure on the high side, and you get a blow-out in the weakest area, 6 o'clock. Pressure is released into an area that is not designed to contain it, and the frame ruptures.

All that being said, I'll still stand by what I said above. But I won't be doing any kind of fiddling with my G23 unless it has an aftermarket barrel in it (with a tighter chamber).

You are correct about the 38 Super, in 1911 type guns. That was caused by re-loaders putting too much powder, in the case to make some magical 'power factor'. Some folks grew beards to cover the scars, on their face. That got to be known as "super face". The 38 Super was already a high pressure cartridge, in the factory loadings and to exceed that was just plain ignorance. I remember "super face".

I have fired factory 45ACP in a Colt 1911A1 and a Glock 21, with very different results. The cases fired, in the Glock had such a big bulge they wouldn't go in a re-sizing die. The very same ammo was fired in the Colt with absolutely no indication of anything amiss. It was commercial Remington FMC, 230gr, 45ACP ammo.

But, as you point out, the metal framed guns do seem to have a better chance of coming out unscathed.

nraman
03-18-2011, 09:48
I think that it is possible for a Glock to fire while slightly out of battery. I believe that Glock went through the trouble of redesigning the recoil spring in Gen 4 to avoid that. The Gen 4 Glocks appear to be a bit more positive in their lock up as the barrel slides in the slide.
If the number of KBs goes down on Gen 4 it could prove my point.
The new chambers in 40 S&W also appear to be tighter than some earlier versions.

nraman
03-18-2011, 09:59
I have fired factory 45ACP in a Colt 1911A1 and a Glock 21, with very different results. The cases fired, in the Glock had such a big bulge they wouldn't go in a re-sizing die. The very same ammo was fired in the Colt with absolutely no indication of anything amiss. It was commercial Remington FMC, 230gr, 45ACP ammo.

The original Glock was designed for the 9x19, a tapered round. Glock 9x19 chambers are nice and tight. The tapered cartridge feeds very well.
When they had to adapt their pistol to US cartridges, they had to deal with straight wall cartridges such as 40 S&W, 10mm, 45ACP. To assure reliability they went nuts with the chambers making them loose and without the support we were used to. Putting a round in the barrel of a G21 and looking at the bottom reveals the problem, no support. The 45 is their worst. If it was not for the low pressures of the 45, every single round would be a KB.
I cannot understand why the US manufacturers keep designing straight wall semi auto cartridges when a little taper can make them feed so much better and can use a tight chamber.

AustinTx
03-18-2011, 19:21
The original Glock was designed for the 9x19, a tapered round. Glock 9x19 chambers are nice and tight. The tapered cartridge feeds very well.
When they had to adapt their pistol to US cartridges, they had to deal with straight wall cartridges such as 40 S&W, 10mm, 45ACP. To assure reliability they went nuts with the chambers making them loose and without the support we were used to. Putting a round in the barrel of a G21 and looking at the bottom reveals the problem, no support. The 45 is their worst. If it was not for the low pressures of the 45, every single round would be a KB.
I cannot understand why the US manufacturers keep designing straight wall semi auto cartridges when a little taper can make them feed so much better and can use a tight chamber.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this. It's a pretty poor excuse for Glock's shoddy design. You are entirely correct about the 45 ACP being a low pressure round and being the only reason they didn't have KBs, with all the Glock 45s.

The 10mm that you refer to, is actually a European design, by Norma.

The 45 ACP is over 100 years old. It shouldn't be a surprise to the Europeans, about straight wall pistol cases. The Glock 21 is the new kid on the block. Glock is the only gun that I've ever seen a bulged 45 ACP case from.

10mmLover
03-23-2011, 17:20
WOW! Been hunting with my G20 10mm with my handloads for years with no problems useing Aliant Blue dot powder and Hornady 180gr XTP's in Star line brass with Winchester primers. I also use the home cast Lee 175gr TC, TL bullets with no problems. Im also useing Lee's great Factory crimp die to post size the cases and make them more reliable in my oppinion.

g22gen4
07-30-2011, 01:01
im new to this forum and this is prob one of my favorite reads on here so far.. tbh i didnt look too much into the kb rumors about glocks online.. it seemed obvious enough to me seeing all the posts of ppl saying they've shot thousands of rounds with no problems and the fact that police are using them... which quite frankly if the gun is failing regularly in anyway they i would doubt they'd keep it in service.

gary newport
07-30-2011, 01:06
Don't believe everything you read about Glocks on the web--especially if it is written by Dean Speir! :cool:

gary newport
07-30-2011, 01:24
I'm not quite sure what to make of this. It's a pretty poor excuse for Glock's shoddy design. You are entirely correct about the 45 ACP being a low pressure round and being the only reason they didn't have KBs, with all the Glock 45s.

The 10mm that you refer to, is actually a European design, by Norma.

The 45 ACP is over 100 years old. It shouldn't be a surprise to the Europeans, about straight wall pistol cases. The Glock 21 is the new kid on the block. Glock is the only gun that I've ever seen a bulged 45 ACP case from.

"Glock's shoddy design" for .45 ACP? :rofl: "...the 45 ACP being a low pressure round..." is what the .45 ACP Glocks were designed to shoot. "The Glock 21 is the only gun that I've ever seen a bulged 45 ACP case from." After 20,000 rounds, give or take a few thousand, I've never seen a "bulged" case emerge from my .45 Glocks--ACP or GAP!

10mmLover
07-30-2011, 16:34
In all honesty, I have had 0 issues with case bulges in my 10mm, 40S&W, or the 357sig. run'em through my Lee dies and shoot'em. my S&W 1006 bulges cases worse than my Glocks!

AustinTx
07-30-2011, 23:16
"Glock's shoddy design" for .45 ACP? :rofl: "...the 45 ACP being a low pressure round..." is what the .45 ACP Glocks were designed to shoot. "The Glock 21 is the only gun that I've ever seen a bulged 45 ACP case from." After 20,000 rounds, give or take a few thousand, I've never seen a "bulged" case emerge from my .45 Glocks--ACP or GAP!

I didn't refer to any of your 20,000 rounds, give or take. The Glock 21 is still the only .45 ACP pistol that I have seen a bulged .45 ACP case from. It was a Remington 230gr FMJ. The bulge was so bad, it wouldn't go into a re-sizing die.

Ammo from that same box was fired in a Colt 1911A1 and the case was still shaped the same as before it was fired.

hunter 111
03-29-2012, 14:47
My own experience with a G22 and my early .40 reloads - I was loading 180 FMJ over AA5 powder (I forget the charge weight now). My wife was shooting my G22, and out of the corner of my eye I saw a flash larger than normal, not coming from the muzzle, but from the middle of the pistol, right behind the breech area.

As I got to her and checked her for damage (none!), I saw that the mag & backstrap plug had been ejected, slide stop sheared off and the slide was locked up tight (had to bang it against an I beam to break it loose!).

Chamber area had cracks on both sides with the case head blown out at the 6:00 (the dreaded unsupported area) and no primer in the case. Did not get the 'classic' barrel peel, though ;f

I believe what happened was bullet set-back creating a pressure spike. At first, I though kB (actually, more like OC ;f ), but gradually moved away from that explanation and have settled on set-back.

I have long since changed my reloading habits and no longer use 180gr bullets or that fast a powder in 40. I still carry that same G22 (obviously fixed since then), and have shot many hundreds, if not thousands of my reloads through it (with an aftermarket barrel) and my G35 with factory barrel. Not as many of my reloads thru a G27 & G23 with factory barrels with no ill effects.

I firmly believe, but have no real desire to test that belief, that even with a "fully supported chamber", the same thing would have happened, though maybe not the blow-out at 6.
things I have noticed through the years most K BOOMS are 40 cal

least amount of K BOOMS 9mm

SHOOTER629
03-29-2012, 15:16
What does that picture of a FiveseveN have to do with the 45 kB?

Just to show any gun can KB! :whistling:

gary newport
03-29-2012, 21:18
I didn't refer to any of your 20,000 rounds, give or take. The Glock 21 is still the only .45 ACP pistol that I have seen a bulged .45 ACP case from. It was a Remington 230gr FMJ. The bulge was so bad, it wouldn't go into a re-sizing die.

Ammo from that same box was fired in a Colt 1911A1 and the case was still shaped the same as before it was fired.

I don't know what to tell you, other than you may have gotten a defective piece of brass.

I have had .45 ACP brass not go into a .45 ACP case gauge, but the brass was mixed and some had most certainly been fired in 1911s I used to shoot 1911s.). Some of the brass was much used, so excessive expansion is certainly a possibility. Just about all of those cases failing the check chambered and fired just fine in a G21. Still, none were visibly bulged.

As an aside, I've never had a problem with .45 GAP brass fired in one of my Glocks--or the once-fired GAP brass a GT member helped me score. All fit easily after resizing.

hooyah1964
03-30-2012, 13:54
Boy this has been an interesting read even tho it's looong. Feb 2012 my G30SF only 1 mo old, "kaboomed" with split frame, blown mag (hit and killed my rt shoe sole" destroyed trigger etc. No damage to upper...slide, barrel, extractor or other. Using Lawman factory ammo blown case at 6 o'clock. Slight damage to my rt hand scratches on my face and arms..Yeah boy that was fun...All the forensic examination says bad load, Glock replaced gun with only $47.00 charge...Happy w/ Glock pissed at "Lawman/Speer" said it could not have been their problem as no other reported failures...Don't believe in lawsuits but a good ol fashion butt kicking might be needed foe those who don't make mistakes..Gun back ran 300 rds last Monday..alls good

Arc Angel
03-30-2012, 14:03
Boy this has been an interesting read even tho it's looong. Feb 2012 my G30SF only 1 mo old, "kaboomed" with split frame, blown mag (hit and killed my rt shoe sole" destroyed trigger etc. No damage to upper...slide, barrel, extractor or other. Using Lawman factory ammo blown case at 6 o'clock. Slight damage to my rt hand scratches on my face and arms..Yeah boy that was fun...All the forensic examination says bad load, Glock replaced gun with only $47.00 charge...Happy w/ Glock pissed at "Lawman/Speer" said it could not have been their problem as no other reported failures...Don't believe in lawsuits but a good ol fashion butt kicking might be needed foe those who don't make mistakes..Gun back ran 300 rds last Monday..alls good

:shocked: Actually I'm very glad you weren't more seriously injured! I've been trying to remain silent; but, THIS I can't resist:

All the forensic examination says bad load, Glock replaced gun with only $47.00 charge...Happy w/ Glock pissed at "Lawman/Speer" said it could not have been their problem as no other reported failures ....

Do you ever get the feeling that, 'You're back in high school. It's prom night; and you're, still, a virgin.' ;)

hooyah1964
03-30-2012, 14:18
Yeah, but....

hooyah1964
03-30-2012, 14:23
Ever noticed how little kids will say when asked Who did that/" "I dunno" That dude is known worldwide Responsibility and integrity is doing the right thing even if noone is watching.

AustinTx
04-01-2012, 23:18
I don't know what to tell you, other than you may have gotten a defective piece of brass.

I have had .45 ACP brass not go into a .45 ACP case gauge, but the brass was mixed and some had most certainly been fired in 1911s I used to shoot 1911s.). Some of the brass was much used, so excessive expansion is certainly a possibility. Just about all of those cases failing the check chambered and fired just fine in a G21. Still, none were visibly bulged.

As an aside, I've never had a problem with .45 GAP brass fired in one of my Glocks--or the once-fired GAP brass a GT member helped me score. All fit easily after resizing.

What I got, defective, was a Glock 21 with a Glock barrel in it. I shoot reloaded 45 ACP, in a 1911 until the case mouth splits.

The fact that your 45 brass would not go, in the 45 case gauge and then ran perfectly, in your Glock pistol should prove that your Glock chamber is too large,.

Never mind about your case gauge, my 45 brass wouldn't go in a resizing die. What took so long to get here? I thought this was dead, last year.

ROGER4314
11-09-2012, 10:29
I waas observing a CHL class in Texas and noticed a lady who was single firing a Glock .40 cal. My curiosity got the best of me so I checked her gun out. She had been firing (10-12 rounds) 9mm in her .40 S&W Glock. I'll try to upload some pics of the brass. No harm was done to the gun or any shooter

Flash

Arc Angel
11-09-2012, 10:57
....... I checked her gun out. She had been firing (10-12 rounds) 9mm in her .40 S&W Glock. .......

:wow: Gasp!

And she didn't have a clue? I've heard of ghetto convenience store bandits doing things like this; but, personally, I've never witnessed anything even close to such incredibly naive behavior.

(Although I do have a friend who consistently loads semi-auto pistol magazines backwards before handing them to me. THAT can really slow the gun down!) :supergrin:

AustinTx
11-18-2012, 22:11
:wow: Gasp!

And she didn't have a clue? I've heard of ghetto convenience store bandits doing things like this; but, personally, I've never witnessed anything even close to such incredibly naive behavior.

(Although I do have a friend who consistently loads semi-auto pistol magazines backwards before handing them to me. THAT can really slow the gun down!) :supergrin:

The economy has really gotten bad. People are having to cut expenses everywhere. 9mm, in a 40 S&W gun is a pretty bad money saver. It's not dangerous, just not much velocity and accuracy.

benatwhodotnet
12-10-2013, 10:02
I'm 56 and have been a shooter most of my life and a reloader for over 20 years. I also work in a technical profession full of acronyms. KB is Kilobyte, Keyboard, Knowledge Base, Kick Back, and a lot of other things. When I was in school I was taught not to use any abbreviation or acronym until AFTER you have defined the term. This is not the place to exhibit your secret handshakes. A forum is for information sharing. Unless you say what you're talking about it's just so much jibberish!

benatwhodotnet
12-10-2013, 10:07
Seriously?!? KB is KABOOM? I found it in post #367 of this thread...

nraman
12-10-2013, 10:56
Unless you say what you're talking about it's just so much jibberish!

Does this help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8rYotiiFP8