A Brief Primer on KB's [Archive] - Glock Talk

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WalterGA
09-06-2004, 13:36
The purpose of this thread isn't to be contentious relative to this frequently misunderstood subject, but rather to offer a little rational thought and a few facts. (Particularly for the newbies who might have been influenced by the Internet Ignorami)

First, whether a pistol, eg., Glock, has a supported or unsupported chamber is generally irrelevant to the subject of KB's. While an unsupported chamber might contribute to a case failure, a case failure does not constitute a KB.

So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)

In order for a case failure @ 6 o'clock to cause a KB, one would have to accept the premise that such a failure would cause dramatic increases in chamber pressure. Does anybody really believe that a RELEASE of pressure @ 6 o'clock will increase chamber pressure? Ever take h.s. physics? If not, or if you failed h.s. physics, then perhaps you should try writing for a gunrag or sponsoring a specious internet site.

Let's use an analogy for the purposes of demonstrating the silliness of blaming lack of case support for KB's. Ever fill up an air tank? Ever wonder what happens to a steam boiler or water heater when tank pressures exceed the tanks' pressure maximums? Well, if the tank has a pop-off valve or other method of releasing pressure, not much happens. With no such relief mechanism, a lot happens, catastrophically. Get the analogy with pistol chambers? If you don't, then, well, good luck with your life.

Photos of blown-up pistols on websites prove nothing, nor make any statements about the design features of that particular blown-up pistol. The picture might just reflect the statistical quality control anomaly of a factory round, or it might indicate an overcharged reload. The posting of a picture or anecdote on the internet doesn't give one any facts at all regarding KB's. (Even if the photos are of G21's blown up by police officers)

There are, I believe, over 2 million Glocks alive and well worldwide. If, as is claimed by the uninformed, Glock's design causes Glocks to randomly explode, then we'd certainly be hearing of more than just a few random cases of exploded Glocks on the internet. Nope, if design flaws were the problem, we'd be seeing tens of thousands of blown-up Glocks, government-demanded recalls, and not just the few "examples" that are posted here-and-there.

Now for my own anecdote. I've fired somewhere in the vicinity of 150,000 rounds of my reloads through my Glocks, mostly through G21's. Matt, of CGR, and others, have fired many times more of their reloads through their Glocks than I have through mine. I reload my .45ACP's until the necks split. I've never even had a 6 o'clock case failure, let alone a KB, using a factory Glock barrel.

I did experience a KB with my original G21 (see photo), using an aftermarket barrel, powder that was too fast, bullet that was too heavy, and a little of my own carelessness mixed in. Clearly had a feedramp bullet setback, with the expected KB. Please note that the case is split down its entire length. If this had been a 6 o'clock blowout, the case would only have failed @ 6 o'clock.

Glocks are among the safest pistols in use today. They are not subject to an abnormal risk of KB. If you overcharge, or, especially, doublecharge a round or use an overcharged or doublecharged factory round, your pistol, regardless of manufacturer, will probably KB.

It's as simple as that.

fabricator
09-06-2004, 13:59
Hey! Eddie, Fred or Mark, this really needs to be stickied.

pwharve
09-06-2004, 14:46
Originally posted by fabricator
Hey! Eddie, Fred or Mark, this really needs to be stickied.

I second the motion.

G36's Rule
09-06-2004, 14:52
Excellent post Walter. Needs to be a sticky.

Medpilot 2
09-06-2004, 15:19
That makes sense to me.:)

09-06-2004, 15:44
You da man, Walter!!

Third (or forth) the sticky (but you know the question will still get axed.....

ColoradoGlocker
09-06-2004, 15:46
.

G-30Jet
09-06-2004, 15:51
Yes! After ignition (primer) the overdose of powder or bullet setback creates a moment of catastrophic shock wave that does not expell the bullet from the casing fast enough to releive the vessle (case) of its pressure caused by immediate expelling of burning gasses.


The case ruptures.Shockwave continues through the frame and components until containment by the frame is diminished, and hot gasses exit through any and all frame holes either built in or newly created by shockwave.

Glock 21(in your case) flies unnaturally from fist, shooting partner says: Hey man what the **** are you tossing YOUR 21 arround for!

You double over in pain and count fingers. If you are lucky you count five and no hospital visit is needed.

The next thing you begin is the denial process, or the now I know process.:soap:

striderglock
09-06-2004, 15:59
Excellent post! Needs to be sticky!

BuffaloBo
09-06-2004, 16:30
Your own definition of a "KB" is admittedly subjective. I don't care if it's a case failure, a 6 o'clock failure, an overloaded powder charge, wrong bullet choice or whatever. I'll still consider it a "KB" or whatever you want to call it because the gun and/or components fail consequentially.

I'll agree that Glocks are no more or no less prone to "KB's" then other quality handguns, however.

Maybe we need to rename automobile collisions accordingly to suit the circumstances of their causes?

Metric
09-06-2004, 16:58
First, whether a pistol, eg., Glock, has a supported or unsupported chamber is generally irrelevant to the subject of KB's. While an unsupported chamber might contribute to a case failure, a case failure does not constitute a KB.

So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)

Since everyone else is demanding that this post be framed and mounted, I suppose I should say a couple of things "for the sake of argument."

The above quote looks a bit to me like defining terminology in such a way that the term "KB" becomes non-useful. Of course, the fact may remain that a particular gun (say, for example, a Glock) is very prone to "case failure" (due to a lack of chamber support inherent in the design) which involves a loud noise sounding roughly like "kabooom" and perhaps permanent damage to the gun -- yet we're not allowed to call it a "KB" because it doesn't meet Walter's definition unless the barrel has been torn apart.

Glocks are among the safest pistols in use today. They are not subject to an abnormal risk of KB. If you overcharge, or, especially, doublecharge a round or use an overcharged or doublecharged factory round, your pistol, regardless of manufacturer, will probably KB.

It's as simple as that.

Assuming we use the "blown barrel" definition of "KB" -- it does not follow that all barrels are equally likely to spit, given a particular overcharge. Glocks may be more or less prone to this particular brand of catastrophic failure -- we simply do not have any solid data to compare, here (if I am ignorant on this point, please enlighten me). All we have is a message board that seems to see more than its share of "I saw a KB at the range today" threads on a regular basis.

WalterGA
09-06-2004, 17:38
Excellent demonstration of non sequitur. Thanks for the contribution. ;)

jupiter
09-06-2004, 18:16
I have been reloading for many years.
I have NEVER had any kind of KB except with a Glock!
I've seen glocks have what I call a Kb at least 4 times.
Twice it only blew the Mag out of the bottom of the gun.
Another time it blew the Mag out and the Extractor into nowhere land.
Another time at a Match where I didn't see the total outcome of what happened.
Just because The whole thing didn't explode does not mean it didn't have a KB in my eyes.
That Extractor that went into NOWHERE land could have just as easily
come back in my face.
There are far too many stories about Glock Kbs to just write it off
and disgard anything that didn't blow the barrel and slide to hell as not being a serious problem. Glock will tell you the kbs with happen because of reloading cast bullets with the hexagonal rifling.
I had a Barsto Barrel in my 34.
The bottom line for the Average shooter is to STAY away from ANY Reloaded Ammo. Also Stay away from the AMERC Crap.



With that said, I feel if you use good ammo, you will never have a problem with a glock.
I carry my 23 every day and not because I have to.
I have Sigs, HKs, Kimbers etc,etc,etc.
I feel like the glock is just about as quick out of the holster and
able to put good shots on targets as fast as any gun every made.

Metric
09-06-2004, 18:41
Originally posted by WalterGA
Excellent demonstration of non sequitur. Thanks for the contribution. ;)

To reiterate my non sequitur, you have defined a "KB" in such a way that most people will never see one. That doesn't change the fact that an unusually large number of people experience catastrophic failure, due in part to unsupported chambers, and report them here on this message board.

I suppose one of us should mention "Solomon juice" at this point, right?

pwharve
09-06-2004, 19:11
Definitions of KB not widthstanding, I still think this thread is worth the while.

Anecdotes about what pistols a particular person has KBed or not are not all that useful in the grand scheme of 10s of millions of pistols in use world wide. Does anyone deny that other pistols will KB, or other weapons in general? I've seen two, one was mine in a T/C Benchmark--fired out of battery.

The big thing I see the anti-Glock crowd bringing up is the lack of full case support. However, in one of the examples used above, the KB occured in a BarSto barrel--I thought those were reamed to SAAMI specs or tighter. So, doesn't that remove the lack of full case support as a factor in KB? Do the BarSto barrels still lack a fully supported chamber? If so, why? I'm looking to learn here.

And, if they are KB prone, why do you people who have KBed them keep using them?

How much of this is internet megaphone? Remember the internet and the tendency for lemmingism (and I'm NOT accusing anyone here of that--I'm not questionin anyone's bona fides) brought us all of those stupid send me a card e-mails and the thought that Target is owned by France.

Where are the statistics on the numbers of KB per unit? Or, alternatively, numbers of KB lawsuits per unit. AT the rate some people suggest Glocks KB, it would seem to me that Glock would be bankrupt. What are the statistics for KB in the militaries that have them in service? Militaries being what they are, I'm sure they keep records like we do.

Same goes for the G19 issue. I don't doubt one exists. Some percentage of pistols aren't working properly, this is a shame and something Glock should be investigating. I hope the return to standard mags resolves the problem forever. But, it is a percentage, and from what I can gather from my local dealers who sell the things, its not the majority percentage--they just don't get them back with complaints. One dealer hadn't even heard there was a problem, and he sells bunches of them. Mine isn't one of the ones with a problem, so far, and yes, I've tried all sorts of JHP. We'll see what shakes out over time.

I think cultism toward anything is pretty silly, Glocks included, but of all the well documented evidence I've been able to get my hands on leads me to believe that the internet anti-Glock megaphone is working well.

--pwharve

09-06-2004, 20:20
My own experience with a G22 and my early .40 reloads - I was loading 180 FMJ over AA5 powder (I forget the charge weight now). My wife was shooting my G22, and out of the corner of my eye I saw a flash larger than normal, not coming from the muzzle, but from the middle of the pistol, right behind the breech area.

As I got to her and checked her for damage (none!), I saw that the mag & backstrap plug had been ejected, slide stop sheared off and the slide was locked up tight (had to bang it against an I beam to break it loose!).

Chamber area had cracks on both sides with the case head blown out at the 6:00 (the dreaded unsupported area) and no primer in the case. Did not get the 'classic' barrel peel, though ;f

I believe what happened was bullet set-back creating a pressure spike. At first, I though kB (actually, more like OC ;f ), but gradually moved away from that explanation and have settled on set-back.

I have long since changed my reloading habits and no longer use 180gr bullets or that fast a powder in 40. I still carry that same G22 (obviously fixed since then), and have shot many hundreds, if not thousands of my reloads through it (with an aftermarket barrel) and my G35 with factory barrel. Not as many of my reloads thru a G27 & G23 with factory barrels with no ill effects.

I firmly believe, but have no real desire to test that belief, that even with a "fully supported chamber", the same thing would have happened, though maybe not the blow-out at 6.

09-06-2004, 20:22
case head

09-06-2004, 20:23
left side

BuffaloBo
09-06-2004, 21:09
Steve:

How long ago did this happen?
The reason why I ask is because I noticed that the case was a Federal. I heard or read somewhere that there might have been some issues with Federal cases being a little flimsy and were prone to blowouts. Also, I heard that they quietly fixed these deficiencies since then. BTW I load Federal cases in .40 these days with no apprehension.

philkryder
09-07-2004, 02:43
Originally posted by WalterGA
....

So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)
....


I like this definition since it clearly separates the case failure from the barrel slide failure.

If only it had been the original definition.

I doubt it will become common usage since the colloquial definition seems to be any type of damaging explosive incident.

I think we are doomed to have KB continue to "mean" both a case failure and a barrel/slide failure.

In any event, the unsupported chamber actually becomes a "relief valve" type of safety feature since it allows a less expensive failure to occur - the case rupture - rather than a Barrel/Slide failure. In this sense it acts much like the pressure relief valve in your steam boiler analogy.

I note from your past postings that you won't own/shoot .40 s&w -
Is it possible that .40s&w in the glock (based on the earlier 9mm slide constraints) has a thinner barrel/chamber than other .40s&w and therefore may be slightly more prone to the Barrel/Slide failure you call a KB?
Or is there some other reason for objecting to the .40s&w?

Thanks for the clear and well intentioned post.
I doubt you'll change the meaning of KB, but the discussion may help clarify the issues.

Phil

duckslayer79
09-07-2004, 03:39
Walter, Steve....


Ya'll still got hands? ;P God that looks like that would hurt to no end.

Good article;f


Take Care
"duck"

WalterGA
09-07-2004, 07:39
Originally posted by philkryder
II note from your past postings that you won't own/shoot .40 s&w -
Is it possible that .40s&w in the glock (based on the earlier 9mm slide constraints) has a thinner barrel/chamber than other .40s&w and therefore may be slightly more prone to the Barrel/Slide failure you call a KB?
Or is there some other reason for objecting to the .40s&w?
Phil

I only shoot my reloads. Years ago, there was an old ordnance officer who posted on GT and, before GT, on UGW. Can't remember the guys' name, but he thought the .40 was poorly conceived and designed.

My personal believe is that shortening a case that works well (10mm) and using the same bullet weights dramatically decrease the margin for error when reloading. Also, just don't have any place in my "arsenal" for .40. I'm pretty happy with 9mm and .45ACP. I've done a lot of experimenting with .400 Cor-Bon and .40 Super, without having to change platforms.

To reiterate: If Glock's design were flawed in such a manner as to cause KB's, then we'd be hearing of tens of thousands of KB's, not the few that are posted on this and other websites. Ol' Occam even works with Glocks. ;)

duck: Thanks to Glock's design, I suffered no damage from my REAL KB. Felt like I'd hit my trigger finger with a hammer, and I was afraid to look at my hand, as I expected to see part of my finger missing. Looked at finger and it was black, then I was afraid to clean the "black" off, for fear of seeing bone, mangled flesh, etc. Didn't even have a bruise!

As I've posted in the past, I was pleasantly surprised that Glock/Smyrna took care of me, even though I was using an aftermarket barrel with reloaded ammo.

Thanks for the interest and opinions expressed in this thread. I'd bet Ol' Pepper against a DemocRAT's brain (something valuable v. something worthless) that a "certain" specious website only quotes GT'ers who are on my infamous Ignore List, when discussing KB's and GT. ;) That rates a big ol' "hardehardeharharhar!" ;)

If G21's had "design flaws", wouldn't you think that I'd have had a problem by now, having fired over 100,000 rounds of my reloads through my G21's?? Some folks, of course, are offended by rational thought and "critical thinking skills." ;)

DannyR
09-07-2004, 08:25
I have no problems with my 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP and .45GAP reloads fired through my Glocks.

If there are 2,000,000 Glocks and 100,000 S&W pistols chambered in .40S&W, you are likely to hear 20x more Glock problems, even though the percentage is the same.

In my experience, I have found nearly all KB's to be ammo problems, some to be shooter errors caused by ammo problems, but none that are design related problems.

If a .40 blows down the magazine due to Glock's chamber, isn't that better than blowing straight back into the shooter's face. The round is not blowing because of the chamber design, it is blowing because of excess powder/excess pressure.

The FBI tested six .40 caliber Glocks 20,000 rounds each. Do you think the FBI would have adopted Glock if there had been a KB?

AND yes, I have seen a Glock KB at at match in Conyers, GA. Brand new G33 with gun show reloads. Was it the pistol or was it the ammo? What do you think?

Duck of Death
09-07-2004, 09:03
My question is would the same round that KBed in a Glock 40SW barrel have done so in a more supported chamber? Due to the large chamber and lack of support over the feel ramp there is less room for error using a Glock barrel. A barrel that leaves the brass bulged as badly as a factory Glock 40SW barrel is not for me. I installed a KKM. It's reliable, accurate and no more bulged brass.

Describe the KB any way you want, I don't want it happening to me. I do not trust Glock barrels in 40SW and hot reloads. I am a competative shooter and shoot thousands of reloads a year so I'll stick with the KKM.

I have a G17 Gen 1 that has a tight chamber and good case support, nothing wrong with this barrel that I could see.

KHAviator
09-07-2004, 09:22
FWIW According to the Yahoo finacial profile of Glock the number of pistols is over 2.5 Million.

Custom Glock Racing
09-07-2004, 09:26
Well done Walter. You hit the nail on the head, particularly by differentiating case head separations.

flatrock
09-07-2004, 09:35
KBs and case failures are both caused by too much pressure.

The case failure can occur due to weak brass at normal pressures, but the ones people tend to be most worried about are those from over pressure.

Those usually happen because of imporperly loaded ammunition, and I suspect that most KBs are because of double loads.

Another problem is leading of the barrel. This is something Glock barrels are susceptable to. You should not fire unjackeded or at least plated bullets from a glock barrel. Lead can build up and cause overpressure.

These are issues that Glock owners should be aware of, but when using factory loaded ammo, they should not be a problem.

Those that choose to reload should use jacketed or at least plated bullets, and be aware that the less fully supported stock barrel can leave bulges in the brass, and decrease it's strength when it's resized. Reloading .40 brass that's been fired in a Glock barrel may not be a good decision, especially if you load hot loads.

Custom Glock Racing
09-07-2004, 09:40
Another note. Despite what some unscrupulous manufacturers will tell you there is no such thing as a fully supported barrel for a glock. They simply don't exist.

DannyR
09-07-2004, 09:53
Aw, Matt, you've just disclosed another secret to the masses.;)

Custom Glock Racing
09-07-2004, 10:09
Does this mean that I will be thrown out of the Magicians Guild Danny?

DannyR
09-07-2004, 10:13
No, you have a lifetime membership to the guild. However, Federal barrels may start telling folks that you be one bad dude.;f

WIG19
09-07-2004, 10:46
I too would vote for a sticky on this one. Also, since I do not make a habit of frequenting "specious" web sites I have no way of knowing whether the fact that Portland continues to order Glocks is common knowledge or not, just ignored, or....? Well done, sir! ^c

I always like your parallels to "Things You Should've Learned in School (had you been paying attention)" ;)

philkryder
09-07-2004, 13:25
Originally posted by WalterGA
....
Years ago, there was an old ordnance officer who posted on GT and, before GT, on UGW. Can't remember the guys' name, but he thought the .40 was poorly conceived and designed.


....


Regarding the argument based on anonymous appeal to authority, whether they are ill conceived or not, I think the same argument you made about Glocks in general also applies to .40s:
There are lots of them - and you will hear of failures.
If it were a real "problem" there'd be recalls.

Though I agree with your reasoning of reduced margin for error with heavier bullets, there are also many of us who shoot many rounds of .40 (including reloads) with no problems.

Any new news from Portland?
Do they really continue to use Glocks?

Phil

09-07-2004, 13:42
Originally posted by BuffaloBo
Steve:

How long ago did this happen?
The reason why I ask is because I noticed that the case was a Federal. I heard or read somewhere that there might have been some issues with Federal cases being a little flimsy and were prone to blowouts. Also, I heard that they quietly fixed these deficiencies since then. BTW I load Federal cases in .40 these days with no apprehension.

Going on 2 years now. I remember hearing the same thing about Federal (after this incident, of course!). I do my best to stick with Winchester brass now in everything I load.

Mdsteele
09-07-2004, 17:48
Good post Walt, Thanks!

pwharve
09-07-2004, 18:02
Originally posted by Custom Glock Racing
Another note. Despite what some unscrupulous manufacturers will tell you there is no such thing as a fully supported barrel for a glock. They simply don't exist.

Why is this? Feed ramp? I'm not engineer enough to figure out why on my own.

TIA.

--pwharve

fabricator
09-07-2004, 18:07
Originally posted by pwharve
Why is this? Feed ramp? I'm not engineer enough to figure out why on my own.

TIA.

--pwharve

Yes, because the magazine is so close to the chamber the feed ramp would be to steep, so they have to cut into the bottom of the chamber slightly, however there are many auto pistols that do this also not just glock.

Rod b
09-07-2004, 21:11
Good post Walter, I think the one common thread throughout all the posts is.

A huge number of Glocks in service = more KBs than less popular pistols

A lot of questions have to be raised about the quality of the ammunition used, both factory & reloads.

petej88
09-07-2004, 22:04
Actually, a third party barrel with more chamber support in the 6 o'clock area may induce bullet setback to a greater degree than a standard Glock barrel since the third party barrel requires a steeper feed ramp, which puts more pressure on the bullet as it hits the feed ramp. (sorry for the run on sentence, but it was kinda fun).

And I think Danny has a good point about the fact that if there are 20 times more Glocks out there than another brand, you will of course here a lot more about Glocks even if the other brand has a similar problem ratio.

WIG19
09-08-2004, 13:41
Sidearmor: Thanks ma'am for the sticky. ;D

WalterGA
09-08-2004, 16:03
Patricia: Thanks for EVERYTHING! :)

KNOW 1
09-08-2004, 16:57
Is this a US phenominon(how you spel?)? Can it be shown whether or not this occurs as frequently, or non-frequently in other countries? Do they reload as much? Do they use local factory ammunition? As far as the number of Glocks out there, wouldn't there be the same, about, or an equal amount of 1911's, though not all of the same manufacture? On the 1911 forum the list 13 1911 manufactures, and then have a "USGI" and "other 1911's" forums. Although I don't think it is such a problem, as much as it is exaggerated by those who do not favor Glock, I'm beggining to believe, "they do have a tendency". I've read enough posts by seemingly experienced Glock users, that are in between negative and positive, i.e. "I still use Glocks after mine Kb'd", or "I saw one Kb". This, however is not what is convincing me, it's the fact that the argument about Kb's is starting to sound like the, "1911's are 100% reliable out of the box", "just as reliable as Glock" and "it's the lower grade manufacturers that make them look bad" argument. Of course, who'd believe anything they read on the internet, anyway?

I've pile the logs, but, please, try to find it in your heart to forgive me.

DAG27
09-08-2004, 19:35
..

09-08-2004, 19:40
Unless you have chillin's in the house, leave it loaded and in the holster. That's what I do. Off my hip, and onto the dresser, still in its holster.

Sgt_Steiner
09-08-2004, 19:43
I'm not worried about Glock KB's but if I was it would be with .40's and .357 not a .45 low pressure round.

fabricator
09-08-2004, 19:46
Originally posted by DAG27
If you shouldn't chamber the same round more than once into your glock, how do you carry it with one chambered. Im a new glock owner, I have the 27 and am a tad concerned about it KB'in on me based on a some things I have read, but am starting to feel at ease. My routine though consists of chambering a round for the day, then at night, unloading it, and starting over in the am. If I shouldn't be doing this, what do you folks do?

^8 Where the heck did you get that cockamamy idea? If you are worried about bullet setback just check the rd against a new one from the box.;)

DAG27
09-08-2004, 19:50
..

Sgt_Steiner
09-08-2004, 19:53
Bullet setback is more of a problem with .357 than anything else.

Originally posted by fabricator
^8 Where the heck did you get that cockamamy idea? If you are worried about bullet setback just check the rd against a new one from the box.;)

Glock-N-Fun
09-09-2004, 11:19
To keep bullet setback in check,place a black ring around the bullet at the case mouth with a marker.

DAG27
09-09-2004, 19:25
..

ColoradoGlocker
09-10-2004, 00:14
.

Glock-N-Fun
09-10-2004, 09:26
CG,

Thank's,i keep forgetting that there are glockateers on this board that haven't been around firearms that long.

mballai
09-10-2004, 19:43
I believe the issue of Glock KBs that are not absolutely ammo related, are probably more how a gun handles high pressure. I gave up a much liked Glock 30 when the 45 KBs started surfacing. No I didn't believe it was going to KB, but guns don't always scale up the same: compare a .40 HP with the original in 9mm. I am not sure if they can beef up a polymer frame in the event you get some off spec ammo. My take is that Glocks are best in 9mm packages. If nothing else stay away from cheapo ammo.

Ulysses
09-10-2004, 22:17
Any firearm can fail if it gets old, is misused, wears out, used out of design, or is loaded with dangerous ammunition.

Glocks require correct handling, and ammunition which complies with the specifications.

If you push them beyond their capabilities beyond the break point you get KBs....

Just use it correctly it will serve you well.

No reason to drink kool-aid and chant... ;)

philkryder
09-10-2004, 23:02
Originally posted by Ulysses
Any firearm can fail if it gets old, is misused, wears out, used out of design, or is loaded with dangerous ammunition.

Glocks require correct handling, and ammunition which complies with the specifications.

If you push them beyond their capabilities beyond the break point you get KBs....

Just use it correctly it will serve you well.

No reason to drink kool-aid and chant... ;)


???

fabricator
09-11-2004, 06:54
Originally posted by Ulysses
Any firearm can fail if it gets old, is misused, wears out, used out of design, or is loaded with dangerous ammunition.

Glocks require correct handling, and ammunition which complies with the specifications.

If you push them beyond their capabilities beyond the break point you get KBs....

Just use it correctly it will serve you well.

No reason to drink kool-aid and chant... ;)

No reason to go all sheepleish either.

09-11-2004, 08:57
Originally posted by Ulysses
No reason to drink kool-aid and chant... ;)

mmmmmm, kool-aid mmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aid ;f

Sugar free, of course ;b

Glock4Life
09-13-2004, 22:43
Well done post by WGA. I'm glad they finally stickied the KB issue. Being a graduate of both H.S. and college physics, I must concur with the original poster. Oh, and I'll take my Kool-Aid with a touch of Grey Goose please.;)

petej88
09-14-2004, 14:05
Originally posted by sjstill
mmmmmm, kool-aid mmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aid ;f

Sugar free, of course ;b

I cannot get this catchy tune out of my head, "kool-aidmmmmmmm".;c

BrokenArrow
09-16-2004, 10:52
Not as good as Dean's kB FAQ, but not bad. ;)

Unsupported chambers may contribute to case failures, and case failures may contribute to kBs? Beats me. More support is better than less (until it interferes w reliability anyway) but enough is all anybody really needs. Glocks have enough for the FBI, DEA, Marshals, ISP, etc.

Good point though. Many of ruptured bbls I have seen (in Glocks, USPs, 1911s, Berettas...) did not rupture at the bottom position where the case had the least support. Many were on the sides or tops of the chamber... and lets not forget "38 Super Face" in 1911s was around long before kBs in Glocks, and 38 revolvers blew up plenty of cylinders too.

I _still_ think (but can't prove) the 40 cases were, and still are, failing more in all guns than the 9/45 ever did though. The 40 case may be closer to the edge where it gets interesting when you or the manufacturer mess up enough? AND the Glocks may be closer to the edge than some other designs too for a variety of reasons that are not "defects". So what? Live w it; plenty of good benefits that outweigh that risk (if any). ;b

gary newport
09-16-2004, 13:37
At my regular range, a display case hangs on the wall. Mounted in that display case are two big Smith N-frames and a bull-strong Ruger single-action. These revolvers are in very sad shape, with bowed and broken topstraps, and cylinders that are missing big chunks of steel.

An overpressure event can happen in any gun. I've never asked about these particular revolvers, but I can imagine something along the lines of "well, I was loading my usual charge of Unique, but I forgot I had Bullseye in the powder measure", or "I had a bullet stuck in the barrel so I decided just to shoot it out".

Be careful out there!

Roundeyesamurai
09-18-2004, 05:43
philkryder:

Any new news from Portland? Do they really continue to use Glocks?

To the best of my knowledge, yes, Glock apparently took back all of Portland Police Bureau's G21s and supplied them with G17s (G17 is what most PPB officers carry already, G21 was approved for those officers who chose to carry it instead of a G17).

petej88
09-18-2004, 11:06
With all due respect for the Portland City Police, it all sounds too much like a heavy handed budgeting maneuver by the City of Portland. I would not be surprised if someone got a pay raise/promotion for this ploy to standardize on one caliber at the expense of another company.

BrokenArrow
09-18-2004, 11:09
kaDrop! ;)

This Teutonic polymer wonder was just dropped by an Austin PD (TX) officer during an arrest scuffle and it broke into pieces! Have another of a USP that was dropped and broke like this too... ;b

philkryder
09-18-2004, 11:17
Originally posted by BrokenArrow
kaDrop! ;)

This Teutonic polymer wonder was just dropped and it broke into pieces! Have another of a USP that was dropped and broke like this too... ;b

how is this relevant?

BrokenArrow
09-18-2004, 11:35
I posted a pic, do I have to draw ya a picture too!? ;)

It's relevant in that stuff happens to _everybody_ sooner or later. A Walther P99 had a PMC case failure on a local range here and it cracked along the same lines as the one above, but held together.

Some Swiss cops had their new SIG P229s fracture slides and bounce pieces off the shooters just like some US military Beretta M9s did... Baltimore County PD broke 52 of their SIG P226s... HK USP compacts have been breaking firing pins for years... all excellent guns too.

Glocks do break. For a variety of reasons. So do other guns. You can worry/post excessively about it like they do on this forum, or just ignore/ live with it like they do on the other forums.

We don' need no stinkin' kB FAQ and/or primer no more than nobody else does! ;b

philkryder
09-18-2004, 11:43
Originally posted by BrokenArrow
I posted a pic, do I have to draw ya a picture too!? ;)

It's relevant in that stuff happens to _everybody_ sooner or later. A Walther P99 had a PMC case failure on a local range here and it cracked along the same lines as the one above, but held together.

Some Swiss cops had their new SIG P229s fracture slides and bounce pieces off the shooters just like some US military Beretta M9s did... Baltimore County PD broke 52 of their SIG P226s... HK USP compacts have been breaking firing pins for years... all excellent guns too.

Glocks do break. For a variety of reasons. So do other guns. You can worry/post excessively about it like they do on this forum, or just ignore/ live with it like they do on the other forums.

We don' need no stinkin' kB FAQ and/or primer no more than nobody else does! ;b

Thanks - your humor was obviously too subtle for me.
When you posted a non-Glock that had KB's and then said that it failed due to dropping, I couldn't see how it was relevant.

It's one thing for "stuff to happen" - It's quite another for someone to claim it is due to a design failure.

If you feel this thread bores you, just feel free to hold down on the alt key and press the left arrow.
Phil

Roundeyesamurai
09-18-2004, 14:39
petej88:

Personally, this sounds more like knee-jerk reaction than calculated ploy to standardize a particular cartridge.

A great number of police agencies standardize one cartridge for duty use, and if PPB wanted merely to do that, they could've done it simply enough by ordering officers to turn in their .45s a long time ago.

I think that the brass passed a brick when they were informed of "gun explosions" and implemented the first and (to them) most obvious reaction- replace the model that "exploded" with another model already in use, which hadn't "exploded".

"And, make it fast, the media is gonna be all over this!"

Justin1584
09-19-2004, 02:25
Originally posted by BrokenArrow
kaDrop! ;)

This Teutonic polymer wonder was just dropped by an Austin PD (TX) officer during an arrest scuffle and it broke into pieces! Have another of a USP that was dropped and broke like this too... ;b

NO WAY ;P Please post that USP pic.

BrokenArrow
09-20-2004, 09:31
No way! I think this is interesting as heck. ;)

Here's the broken USP pic. IIRC, the full size USP went into the plastic case OK after shooting. Case was dropped, when it was opened later, gun came out looking like this.

Obviously a design defect that needs attention, unless ya think these are anomalies and/or it's the only time it happened and I just happened to run across the pics?

Now who's gonna write that Walther/HK kD primer? ;b

BigDozer66
09-21-2004, 14:49
Originally posted by sjstill
mmmmmm, kool-aid mmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aid ;f

Sugar free, of course ;b

Sugar Free?

Man that stuff will stunt your growth!;)

Hey Kool-Aid!:cool:

BigDozer66

JSK333
09-25-2004, 16:11
One other question is: if the round is charged to a point higher than it is designed to handle, will it matter much in the long (or short) run how much case support it has?

I would venture: it will blow the case, regardless, because the pressure is past the point of what the case can handle (A + B = C, so Z is irrelevant).

I wonder if the difference between blowing out mags and mag releases, etc., and splitting the barrel, is due to how much bottom support the chamber has.

More support = split barrel, less support, blown out parts. Thoughts?

Roundeyesamurai
09-25-2004, 17:23
JSK333:

I do believe that's what WalterGA was referring to with his "pop-off valve" analogy earlier.

shootingbuff
10-13-2004, 09:22
Originally posted by Metric
To reiterate my non sequitur, you have defined a "KB" in such a way that most people will never see one. That doesn't change the fact that an unusually large number of people experience catastrophic failure, due in part to unsupported chambers, and report them here on this message board.

I suppose one of us should mention "Solomon juice" at this point, right?

FLASH - A KB is not a case failure. With a case failure it is something wrong with the ammo. It is a fact that a more fully supported chamber is less likely to have a case failure, but when things go boom it is better to have the case go first then to hope that the more fully supported chamber holds all that pressure.

Now for the rub. A KB is not a case failure. Just in case amy did not get that in WGA's post.

sb

KNOW 1
10-14-2004, 11:42
is a case failure due to a particular point on the case, which just happens to line up with the unsuported part of the barrel, or is it the entire circumference of the case and any part would fail where unsupported. If the former is true, could it fail at any point on the circumference of the case? If so, could a case failure occuring somewhere other than the unsupported part cause a Kb? If the latter is true, then I see the point, "a case failure is not a Kb."

Just don't know how case failures occur.

quantico
10-18-2004, 11:05
All pistols can and do occasionally fail when excessive pressure destroys the ability to stay in one piece. Glocks are in wide use and therefore have a large percentage of these failures. The failures are not of design or content failure, but of ammunition that is not in spec. Ocassionally a very lead fouled barrel will also cause a failure. I would not worry about any caliber glock that is cleaned and maintained well , and that uses quality ammunition that is new factory or reloaded by people with the skills to do so.

cebuboy
10-20-2004, 04:31
Originally posted by KNOW 1
is a case failure due to a particular point on the case, which just happens to line up with the unsuported part of the barrel,
Just don't know how case failures occur.

mine happened at the unsuported area, the area near the case head gave way and blew the mag out.

glk269mm
10-22-2004, 17:47
AAAAAH! Good old reliable WalterGA. I have not been around for a long time. Man, you ground me! BTW, I agree. Hey, what was up with that long break a few years ago?;)

BuffaloBo
11-04-2004, 13:01
Originally posted by glk269mm
AAAAAH! Hey, what was up with that long break a few years ago?;)

Speculation, - the state probably determined that he was a danger to himself and has since rehabilitated him.

Regal
11-07-2004, 20:18
delete

gary newport
11-08-2004, 17:33
Originally posted by Regal
;Q My 26 has only shot aprox 100 rounds and the other day after 6 rounds blew in my hand, factory federal load, the magazine blew apart, spring ect. plastic SOB flew all over, blew the slide lock lever and spring out gouging my hand pretty good. First frickkin gun that ever exploded in my hand. IMHO these guns are not very safe.

What Federal factory load were you using?

fabricator
11-08-2004, 17:54
Originally posted by Regal
;Q My 26 has only shot aprox 100 rounds and the other day after 6 rounds blew in my hand, factory federal load, the magazine blew apart, spring ect. plastic SOB flew all over, blew the slide lock lever and spring out gouging my hand pretty good. First frickkin gun that ever exploded in my hand. IMHO these guns are not very safe.

email federal and smyrna, I think both would like to see the gun and any left over ammo.

Mr.GLOCK19
11-10-2004, 17:15
i shouldn't have read this . . i always wanted a glock, i finally get one, an you guys are tellin me it might K.B . . in my hand? .. what ammo do i NOT use? . . i use hydra shocks, and there are a few I.Q's in there too.. any comments on the IQ bullets.. 65 grn? i shoot the cheap bullets at the range an keep the H.S an I.Q for self defence.. is that the right thing to do.? . . i do that with my rugerp90.. and its been fine.. but you got me worried about my glock19 now.. any comments are welcome.. ;P

gary newport
11-10-2004, 17:53
Originally posted by Mr.GLOCK19
i shouldn't have read this . . i always wanted a glock, i finally get one, an you guys are tellin me it might K.B . . in my hand? .. what ammo do i NOT use? . . i use hydra shocks, and there are a few I.Q's in there too.. any comments on the IQ bullets.. 65 grn? i shoot the cheap bullets at the range an keep the H.S an I.Q for self defence.. is that the right thing to do.? . . i do that with my rugerp90.. and its been fine.. but you got me worried about my glock19 now.. any comments are welcome.. ;P

WalterGA would prescribe Paxil. I'll just say STOP WORRYING! Don't shoot (naked) lead bullets. Don't shoot commercially reloaded ammo from some guy at a gun show. Don't shoot your friend's reloads. Buy Factory ammo. If you reload, do so carefully.

It is true that the big ammo factories occasionally make a mistake, but such mistakes are rare. It is also true, as Walter has pointed out, that a case failure is NOT a KB! Glocks don't blow up unless subjected to excessive pressure. ALL guns can blow up if subjected to more pressure than they were designed to handle.

At the range I go to, there is a display case behind the counter which holds two big S&W N-frames and a bull-strong Ruger Blackhawk. All had serious KB! events. It can happen to any gun.

Millions of Glocks in this country consume hundreds of millions of rounds (collectively) each year safely. I have personally fired over fifteen thousand rounds through my various Glocks, including my reloads, in the past two years. None of my Glocks has blown up.

Relax and enjoy your Glock. Shoot it often. You are the owner of one of the finest, if not THE finest, fighting pistols available. ;c

JMag
11-10-2004, 18:03
Nice post, Walter.

Remember that with any product sold at high volume more problems can be reported. If Glock had defects in design a logical person could expect many more reports from many sources as to such KB failures.

gary newport
11-10-2004, 18:34
Originally posted by Regal
;Q My 26 has only shot aprox 100 rounds and the other day after 6 rounds blew in my hand, factory federal load, the magazine blew apart, spring ect. plastic SOB flew all over, blew the slide lock lever and spring out gouging my hand pretty good. First frickkin gun that ever exploded in my hand. IMHO these guns are not very safe.

Incidentally, that sounds like a case failure, not a KB! Unless your slide and barrel were damaged, that is. Were they?

Mr.GLOCK19
11-10-2004, 20:18
LoL.. . i'll try not to worry .. . and i'll have to look into the paxil LOL. . thanks again . .;z

Weaseled
11-19-2004, 10:53
Yesterday my father and I went out shooting -- some of you may have read the thread I started.

He brought his .44mag Super Blackhawk, and we were shooting ~12 year old many times again reloaded ammo. Out of the ~60 rounds we wanted to burn thru we had three rounds split the brass/case down the side.

My question is, if a case rupture like that would have happened on one of my many GLOCK's, would it most likely end up in a major failure??

Thanks, and so far my GLOCK's have performed near flawlessly. The only problems I've had was with Fiocchi (or however it's spelled) .45ACP rounds. Out of 50, 230gr FMJ rounds I had two that didn't go off and one that failed to eject. (Stuck in chamber as if it expanded or something.)

AME206350
11-21-2004, 18:06
Originally posted by Mr.GLOCK19
LoL.. . i'll try not to worry .. . and i'll have to look into the paxil LOL. . thanks again . .;z

DO NOT WORRY. Although case failures happen in all makes of firearms (you just never know). Glocks are first rate pistols and for what it's worth I believe that the 9mm Glocks are usually the last Glocks to have the "kb!kb!" finger pointed at it.

I feel bad for anyone who has had a major case failure but at the same time I have nothing but the utmost confidence with my G17. These pistols have been through some of the most rugged testing and are worthy of your trust.

I know a guy who had his little Nissan hatchback blow up but I'd still take a ride in one. KB's? Forget about it. Enjoy your awesome pistol. If you look hard enough you can read someone's horror-story about almost anything.

Don't get me started on that time I almost poked my eye out with my pillow...lol

JR

atmarcella
11-28-2004, 09:46
is it ok to use teflon coated bullets?

G33Man
12-06-2004, 08:11
I guess the concern I have is with the effects of a case failure on the gun and my hand. KB or no KB...it is the end result that I am worried about. "Good news...it was the ammo not the gun. Bad news....your right hand is permanently damaged."
I have witnesses a case failure in a Sig P229 in .40.
An ugly sound with flames shooting out of strange places was heard/seen. The magazine flew out of the bottom. That was it. The gun/ammo was checked over, mags reloaded and away it went.
It should be a concern with any polymer framed pistol. Not just Glocks.
I am dying for a 15 round pistol in .357 Sig. The G31 is the only pistol to currently fill that niche.
I am hesitant to buy one.
I carry a G33 from time to time. I had a FFL friend in need who sold it to me NIB for $380. It was hard to pass up.
It never goes to the range with me. I don't want to put a lot of rounds thru it. If I bought a G31 it would be so I could put it into my shooting rotation. I shoot around 1500-2000 rounds a month so it would get a lot of rounds of Federal American Eagle 125 gr FMJ in a year.
15 rounds of .357 Sig is very, very appealing......but in the back of my head I would definitely worry.

godawful
12-08-2004, 00:20
somebody was bringing up quantum physics or something and how it cannot possibly relate to overpressure in the chamber of a glock resulting in a KaBoom, but that is actually not really the thing to be looking at here.
the oversize chamber at the 6 o clock position allows the brass to bulge a bit, resulting in many possible failures. one can be that once the brass has bulged it can hang in the chamber and does not allow the slide to cycle which builds pressure in the barrel. and then i guess we all know what happens next. or do we need to take a college course to tell us that if the brass can't exit the chamber, and if the bullet can't exit the barrel, then all the stuff in the middle has to go somewhere. remember that autopistols depend on blowback to function.
yes, reloaded brass can be weaker, making this possibility more probable. rarely, factory ammo can have poor brass. however you look at it, it is POSSIBLE, however unlikely.
now with all that said, i sure hope to god nobody has to suffer any kind of injury from indulging in such a wonderful sport as handgunning and reloading. good luck to all you guys who reload. i used to do it myself. i hope you don't get hurt.

philkryder
12-08-2004, 22:28
Originally posted by godawful
???? which builds pressure in the barrel. and then i guess we all know what happens next.....

What? How would this build anymore pressure than a fixed breech gun?

godawful
12-08-2004, 23:13
welp, in a blowback gun, as the primer is fired and the powder burns, the brass usually begins moving rearward a bit. then as the bullet leaves the barrel, the pressure in the barrel "blows back" to slam the casing further rearward to rack the slide.
if the casing is bulged or weak, it can crack, allowing too much pressure to escape while the bullet is still in the barrel. if too much pressure is allowed to escape before the bullet exits the barrel (in other words, the pressure can no longer propel the bullet forward) and if the blowback is not powerful enough to move the casing further back, the pressure builds to a high enough level in the barrel to cause rupture. (maybe this can also happen if a crappy primer pops out after being fired)
the hole or tear in the brass is usually not large enough to allow all the pressure that is needed to propel the bullet forward and the casing backwards. if in some case a really large tear formed in the brass and was somehow able to travel rearward enough to cycle the slide and another round, then you may end up with a bullet still lodged in the barrel. upon the next round being fired, a barrel rupture is expected.
also, if the casing bulges enough, in an extreme example, it even hits the top of the clip, not allowing the slide to cycle properly.
*whew* and i only have a basic knowledge of how this all works, i am sure there is some guy out there who can expalin blowback and everything in a really scientific way. i think i remember reading that as the bullet exits the barrel, it creates a vacuuum therein, and then the implosion (not explosion) is actually what cycles the slide. maybe i got that part wrong, but it seems like that's what i read.
can anyone explain this better?

philkryder
12-08-2004, 23:39
Originally posted by godawful
welp, in a blowback gun, as the primer is fired and the powder burns, the brass usually begins moving rearward a bit. then as the bullet leaves the barrel, the pressure in the barrel "blows back" to slam the casing further rearward to rack the slide.
if the casing is bulged or weak, it can crack, allowing too much pressure to escape while the bullet is still in the barrel. if too much pressure is allowed to escape before the bullet exits the barrel (in other words, the pressure can no longer propel the bullet forward) and if the blowback is not powerful enough to move the casing further back, the pressure builds to a high enough level in the barrel to cause rupture. (maybe this can also happen if a crappy primer pops out after being fired)
the hole or tear in the brass is usually not large enough to allow all the pressure that is needed to propel the bullet forward and the casing backwards. if in some case a really large tear formed in the brass and was somehow able to travel rearward enough to cycle the slide and another round, then you may end up with a bullet still lodged in the barrel. upon the next round being fired, a barrel rupture is expected.
also, if the casing bulges enough, in an extreme example, it even hits the top of the clip, not allowing the slide to cycle properly.
*whew* and i only have a basic knowledge of how this all works, i am sure there is some guy out there who can expalin blowback and everything in a really scientific way. i think i remember reading that as the bullet exits the barrel, it creates a vacuuum therein, and then the implosion (not explosion) is actually what cycles the slide. maybe i got that part wrong, but it seems like that's what i read.
can anyone explain this better?

So,...

You're saying that there is sufficient pressure to tear a hole in a case -??but not sufficent pressure to push a bullet out of the barrel??

So are you talking about a case that is weakened to start with?
Or are you saying that this happens with a perfectly good case, due to the Glock design?

Are you also saying that AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel there is pressure that moves the slide?

godawful
12-09-2004, 01:19
Originally posted by philkryder
So,...

You're saying that there is sufficient pressure to tear a hole in a case -??but not sufficent pressure to push a bullet out of the barrel??

So are you talking about a case that is weakened to start with?
Or are you saying that this happens with a perfectly good case, due to the Glock design?

Are you also saying that AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel there is pressure that moves the slide?

yes to number one. it is easier to tear a hole in weakened brass than it is to push the bullet out of the barrel. but what is important here is that gas begins to leak from the hole, taking away from the pressure needed to propel the bullet forward.

to number 2- the case has to be faulty or weak to begin with. the enlarged part of the chamber in glocks can allow this to happen, i had a full auto m-11 that bulged the rear of the brass also.

to number 3, yes, the shell casing begins moving when the shell is fired, but moves mostly when the bullet leaves the barrel. think about it, if the casing exited immediately upon firing, what would the pressure behind the bullet have to push against in order to propel itself forward? if you look at a profile of most autoloaders you see that the barrel tilts when the slide is cycled. if the bullet moved slower, or at the same speed of the rearward-moving casing, then the bullet would fire high every time. i don't know the difference between blowback and delayed blowback, i'll have to look into that one.

gemeinschaft
12-12-2004, 09:27
I have shot over 69,000 rounds in my G19 and have had no problems.

However, I have witnessed issues with .40 and .357 sig glocks.

I think if one examines the process by which these pistols were designed and marketed, you could easily see where Glock has created some problems for themselves.

I will stick with 9 or 45, the way Gaston meant for them to be.

I believe the Kb that you are trying to discuss hear would fit this description :

spiral crack on frame starting on right side of pistol leading clockwise descending the grip; most of chamber gone from the barrel; ejected magazine; slide release and magazine release gone; slide stuck on frame rails that have been bent upwards; -- THis was with factory ammo.

I was standing about 12 feet away and got hit in the eye by a piece of metal (I think part of the chamber).

Wiley X sent me a few pairs of glasses for my testimonial.

Next time you have a pair of calipers, measure the chamber support on the .40 and the 9mm barrel; then ask yourself which one has to standup to more pressure.

KerrtMoremin
12-14-2004, 17:42
AUL GOLCKS BLOE UHPˇˇ
Jsut assck Deen Spier. The krangcky oaled farght... >;[

Vincent Black
12-15-2004, 08:27
Originally posted by KerrtMoremin
AUL GOLCKS BLOE UHPˇˇ
Jsut assck Deen Spier. The krangcky oaled farght... >;[

Dude....WTF is wrong with you? I know that I shouldn't even be typing a response to your posts, but I would really like to know what your deal is. If you can't communicate in an intelligent manner, then maybe the internet isn't for you. I would suggest that you stick with legos or some other children's toy to keep yourself amused, but I wouldn't want to feel responsible for you putting them in your mouth and choking on them. ;e

GoGoGophers
12-15-2004, 22:09
Originally posted by godawful
...remember that autopistols depend on blowback to function.

A Glock is a recoil operated pistol.

schapman43
12-20-2004, 02:45
List one mechanical device that takes many high stress cycles and never fails.

godawful
12-21-2004, 10:22
Originally posted by GoGoGophers
A Glock is a recoil operated pistol.

looks like you are partially right. very partially...
glockfaq.com
The G-26, like most Glocks, operates on the modified Browning, locked-breack, delayed blowback system. In this system, the square top front of the chamber area mates to a cut in the top front of the ejection port in the slide. The two parts remain locked together as they move backwards in recoil, until the ramped lug on the bottom of the barrel, hits the locking block in the frame. At that point, the angle of the barrel lug engaging the locking block cams the barrel downwards, while the slide continues rearward in a staight line. The barrel soon stops, while the slide continues rearward, with the extractor, having engaged the rim of the cartridge, removing the spent case from the chamber.

In the G-28, much of this operation is the same, with one primary exception. Because the pressures of the 380ACP (9mm Kurz) are so low, there is only enough residual energy to function the action, so there can be no delay, or too much energy will be bled away to maintain reliability. In order to cancel the modified-Browning systems locking mechanism, you will see a substantial portion of the breach block on the front of the chamber-end of the barrel has been milled away. This means that the locking of the action is accomplished completely by the recoil spring and the inertia of the slide at rest. When a round is fired, the slide almost immediately starts to the rear, but there is nothing keeping the barrel locked to it, so although the barrel is also moving to the rear, it is not tied to the slide. You will also note a machined ramp on the inside rear of the slide, which mates with the ramp machined on the top front of the breach block of the barrel. This reduces resistance and allows the barrel and slide to move past each other more easily and freely, again reducing any locking force.

WalterGA
12-21-2004, 16:03
Has my KB thread been hijacked, or what?? :)

Toyman
12-22-2004, 12:45
For those who can't read very well:

Properly loaded ammunition = a round of ammo

IMProperly loaded ammunition = a small bomb

There, make sense now?

Cat91
12-25-2004, 10:14
Frankly, I think that the whole kB! thing is a little overblown.

I had a 9mm model 19 from the first generation that I had for four years without any problems-got it in the divorce from first hubby. I also had a third generation (FWE prefix) model 23 for about eight months this past year and fired about 700 rounds of WWBs from Wal Mart and about a hundred Cor-Bons through it without a problem. I traded it off not because it sucked, but because (1) hubby is stuck on his Steyr M9 and wanted me to go down to 9mm so we could save money at the range by sharing ammo (9mm is a good bit cheaper than .40); (2) the Glock's grip is a little fat for my small hands (had that problem with my old 19 too, to a lesser extent because of the different grip on the 1st generation gun); and (3) I hit better with the 9mm anyway.

I got a Fabrique Nationale FNP-9, one of the milspec ones made by FNMI in Columbia, SC. Last two in the serial number was 59 and the gun came off the FNMI production line in the last week of June 2004. What a piece of crap that was. It wouldn't feed from a full magazine. And it had a busted firing pin spring right out of the box-I never even got to shoot it one time!! We hustled back to the shop and talked to the owner-a great guy. He took a look at it and was like "Well, hell. Never expected that! Look, I set one aside for me and I'll let you have it instead. How about that?"

We took him up on it. The last two of the new FNP's serial is 61, it was made two guns after the other one, on the same day. Just like the first one, it had three 16 round mags and felt great in my hand. It's a lot like a SIG P-226, but polymer-framed and small enough in the grip for a woman's hand (I find the SIG a little large-gripped too). And unlike no. 59, no. 61 is a nail-driver. It feeds full mags, no problem. I even drew a smiley face on a silhouette target with it! Two hundred rounds of WWB 115 grain and a thorough cleaning later, I was a totally satisfied customer with a big smile on MY face and a new FNP-9 stoked with 17 rounds of 115 grain Cor-Bon 9mm +P (1,350 fps and 446 ft/lb energy) stashed in the gun pocket of my purse.

The moral of this story is that obviously the first FNP I had came out of the factory with a broken firing pin after the test-firing, some sort of manufacturer's defect. The second FNP is an excellent handgun indeed and one we'll be keeping a good long time, I think. I like the DA/SA setup, with the 10-pound pull on the decocked action it is safe to carry locked and loaded (again, like a SIG only thinner and a bit lighter), and I like the large capacity the 9mm provides.

Such it is with Glocks. With the HUGE numbers of Glocks out there in the world, it only stands to reason that sometimes they'll get bad steel, goof a casting, have a quality control foulup...or just get some bad ammo...and the result is the infamous kB!. It shouldn't reflect on the thousands of *good* Glocks of all calibers out there in the hands of cops, military folks, civilians all over the world. We hear more about Glock blowups in the gun world because there are so many of them. The Glock is today what the .38 snubby was when I was growing up: Everyman's gun. It's ubiquitous.

(edit) Epilogue: I missed my 23 so much I got another one. ;Q . Should have stayed with it, darnit.

Miao, Cat

godawful
12-26-2004, 23:39
ok a new slogan for the glocksters...
SHOOT IT TIL IT EXPLODES
ya like?

GoGoGophers
12-30-2004, 00:42
Originally posted by WalterGA
Has my KB thread been hijacked, or what?? :)

Yes it has (or was), unlike all the other threads here on GT, that stay exactly on-topic!

Protect your turf, Walter... fame can sometimes be but a fleeting moment, if not properly "cultivated".

PS : A Glock is a recoil operated pistol. ;)

wetaylor58
01-13-2005, 12:54
Walter on an earlier post you mentioned you bought a 22" barrel with chokes for your A-5 Browning. I am look for one myself could you give me some info on where to buy one.

Washington,D.C.
01-23-2005, 20:58
Originally posted by wetaylor58
Walter on an earlier post you mentioned you bought a 22" barrel with chokes for your A-5 Browning. I am look for one myself could you give me some info on where to buy one. I think he's away skiing.

Jeff/1911
01-24-2005, 17:44
I hope that's true...we miss you around here Walter!

Washington, D.C. - Nice picture! I think I'd better taking up skiing...RIGHT THERE!

Jeff/1911.

AggieAK
02-11-2005, 09:30
um, help me out KB? Katistrophic blowup.... how about Killer Barrel, i have no frickin clue here. maybe there should be a tab up top, like by the "donations" tab in which you can put definitions for us young bucks.. just a thought.

Washington,D.C.
02-11-2005, 10:04
http://thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html KB was coined by Walter's good friend, firearms journalist Dean Speir."Kb! is shorthand for "kaBOOM!"Which is the written representation of what happens when one has a catastrophic explosive event in one's Glock." Being Winter,Walter is still away skiing but sent a photo.

Chainsaw Maniac
02-12-2005, 20:28
That's Wally in action!

We miss ya, Wally. Hope all is well with you.

newgunner
02-20-2005, 14:31
Why is it that on glock furoms they always tell you to AVIOD certain bullets, but in Hk furoms or other gun furoms, they tell you what bullets you BEST to use.

The point is, glocks blow up because they use crap ammo. Any gun that uses crap ammo will blow up. But GLOCKS have a higher chance of blowing up because of it's design. AKA they are lower quality firearms

It is recommended that you should get a jarvis or other barrel that is fully supported in order for a glock to not blow up =)

fabricator
02-20-2005, 14:43
Originally posted by newgunner
Why is it that on glock furoms they always tell you to AVIOD certain bullets, but in Hk furoms or other gun furoms, they tell you what bullets you BEST to use.

The point is, glocks blow up because they use crap ammo. Any gun that uses crap ammo will blow up. But GLOCKS have a higher chance of blowing up because of it's design. AKA they are lower quality firearms

It is recommended that you should get a jarvis or other barrel that is fully supported in order for a glock to not blow up =)

Ummm hmmmm.;Q

jmacelree
02-25-2005, 13:27
I met a guy in Baltimore many years ago who had been firing a .38 and after several rounds the gun stopped working. As it turned out he had a squib round stuck in the barrel and the following slugs stacked up behind it until the last one kept the cylinder from indexing. The gunsmith had to melt the lead out of the barrel and noticed that the back strap had stretched. Lucky for the shooter he had a heavy all steel gun, the loads were light and the cylinder gap allowed the gas to escape so the gun did not KB. A lighter weight gun or heavier loads may have resulted in the gun blowing apart or serious injury.

The point is that many factors contribute to a KB and the composition and strength of the gun are among them.

Glock4Life
03-09-2005, 20:17
Since I've been away from the board for some time, I never got a chance to say goodbye to WGA. All the threads were locked by the time I got back. Best of everything to you man and take care.

G4L

Shaker223
03-17-2005, 19:01
List one mechanical device that takes many high stress cycles and never fails.

A 100,000 mile engine may have around 514,260,000 cycles on a piston

Point_and_shoot
03-18-2005, 20:30
Originally posted by striderglock
Excellent post! Needs to be sticky!


What the hell is a sticky????

Washington,D.C.
03-18-2005, 21:24
A "sticky" is a thread "stuck" at the top/beginning of a forum.

cw2go
03-24-2005, 04:48
I can't agree with the original post. It's not a primer. And it misses the key points.

The real problem is that you can fire many Glocks slightly out-of-battery -- especially earlier models, like mine. Combine this with the unsupported chamber in the feed ramp area, and you are left with a blackened, stinging hand, a look of shock on your face, and wondering what the hell just happened, and why your magazine became a projectile. (Fortunately only the mag.) I wasn't really injured, and my G19 survived with a new slide release, mag release, and mag, and has had another 1 - 2,000 rds though it. But it was clear from the undertone of my discussion with the nice lady at Glock that this was not an uncommon thing, even with 9s, and that they don't really think you should be shooting reloads or Federal ammo. These were the only reloads it ever shot, and it blew before I had 20 rds of reloads through it (commercial reloads, not home brew). I won't be shooting reloads, plated slugs, or Federal ever again.

And I do think Glock should be seriously faulted for failing to call its "upgrade" a "recall", which would have saved quite a few of us the aforementioned stinging hand and damaged parts replacement. A proper warning, and a note about the "upgrade" would have been appropriate. This was not responsible corporate behavior.

So I see three key issues:
1. ability to fire out of full lockup
2. excessive unsupported chamber area
3. failure to notify the customer base of the need to get the parts upgrade

Add to this a fourth item, like a lead shaving, oversize case, dirty chamber, insufficient force chambering the first round -- anything which causes incomplete lockup -- NOW you have a Kb!

Just my opinion, but one that is now obvious to me, and I'm sticking to it.

-- cw

jmacelree
03-24-2005, 08:15
Originally posted by cw2go
And I do think Glock should be seriously faulted for failing to call its "upgrade" a "recall", which would have saved quite a few of us the aforementioned stinging hand and damaged parts replacement. A proper warning, and a note about the "upgrade" would have been appropriate. This was not responsible corporate behavior.
-- cw

What are the details on the "Upgrade" and how does one get it?

Washington,D.C.
03-24-2005, 11:39
Originally posted by jmacelree
What are the details on the "Upgrade" and how does one get it? Glock has a had a few parts upgrades.At one time they were even machining 45 and 10mm slide(and maybe others)at the extractor.The parts upgrades are still there but I think they stopped the slide machining.The biggest "upgrade" that should have been a recall is most of the frames with serial numbers beginning with "E" with three letters have faulty rails.Glock will replace the frame if it is on the defective rail list or if the rails have broken.

jmacelree
03-24-2005, 12:07
Very helpful, thanks.

philkryder
03-24-2005, 20:08
Originally posted by cw2go
....

The real problem is that you can fire many Glocks slightly out-of-battery --

-- cw

how can this happen?

If the slide moves back even a little, the trigger no longer operates the striker.
This happens long before the slide to barrel "opers"...

cw2go
03-26-2005, 06:54
It doesn't have to be far from full lockup to make a big difference. My Glock 19 appears to be able to fire over 1/16-inch from lockup (enough for the barrel to fall noticeably, perhaps 1/32-inch or better), but it will not fire with 1/8-inch slide retraction. Hopefully, the upgrade kit will reduce this. You can test your own, retracting the slide just slightly to see at what point it you can pull the trigger and where it gets blocked. I have not installed the upgrade yet to see what the effect is, but only the old Glocks need it -- as I understand it, all those built in the last decade or so do not, and models after the 24.

Information on the upgrade kit (and which s/ns need it) can be found at: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq.html

My writeup and photos on the kB! were posted at: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19-kb.html

The Glock kB! FAQ can be found at http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html -- there is a lot of info there.

-- cw

philkryder
03-26-2005, 13:14
Originally posted by cw2go
It doesn't have to be far from full lockup to make a big difference. My Glock 19 appears to be able to fire over 1/16-inch from lockup (enough for the barrel to fall noticeably, perhaps 1/32-inch or better), but it will not fire with 1/8-inch slide retraction. Hopefully, the upgrade kit will reduce this. You can test your own, retracting the slide just slightly to see at what point it you can pull the trigger and where it gets blocked. I have not installed the upgrade yet to see what the effect is, but only the old Glocks need it -- as I understand it, all those built in the last decade or so do not, and models after the 24.

Information on the upgrade kit (and which s/ns need it) can be found at: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq.html

My writeup and photos on the kB! were posted at: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19-kb.html

The Glock kB! FAQ can be found at http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html -- there is a lot of info there.

-- cw


we may differ on what we mean by "lockup"
when you move the slide back by 1/16,isn't the barrel still tight against the breech?

atmarcella
03-27-2005, 01:47
Originally posted by Washington,D.C.
Glock has a had a few parts upgrades.At one time they were even machining 45 and 10mm slide(and maybe others)at the extractor.The parts upgrades are still there but I think they stopped the slide machining.The biggest "upgrade" that should have been a recall is most of the frames with serial numbers beginning with "E" with three letters have faulty rails.Glock will replace the frame if it is on the defective rail list or if the rails have broken.

i have EVT143, do you think i should request for a new frame from glock? thanks

cw2go
03-27-2005, 02:15
Originally posted by philkryder
we may differ on what we mean by "lockup"
when you move the slide back by 1/16,isn't the barrel is still tight against the breech?
By full lockup, I mean locking surfaces fully and completely engaged as required to take the full design pressure of normal firing, plus the design safety margin (which should handle significant overpressure for proof firing). At 1/16" back, it is close to lockup, but has just started disengaging (which I suspect is significant), and you can still pull the trigger, so you could conceivably get a kB! in that condition.

The most common kB! is not a failure of the barrel, slide, or frame, but a case failure in the unsupported area at the feed ramp, which is obvious if you examine a failed case or check out the pictures. (This differs from the original post here, which defines kB! in a manner contrary to that of the person who defined the term, who'se site URL I posted above.)

You can test your own pistol (AFTER confirming it is unloaded) by gently pressing back the slide and verifying where it reaches the point where you can no longer get the trigger to release. Once I get the upgrade kit installed (which includes 6 parts: a new Extractor, Spring-loaded bearing, Firing pin safety and spring, Firing pin / striker, Trigger bar) I will run the test again to see if reductes the distance above.

-- cw

Tboh
03-27-2005, 09:50
Could I ask a basic Q here?

What is the carry round that has the lease problems. Least chance of KB, Miss feed, FTE, SSS and anything else that'll likely run into as a CCW.

.40 and 9mm in G23 in hand and possibly a G26 or 27 shortly.

Has anyone figured it out?
Thanks,

cw2go
03-28-2005, 06:04
Originally posted by Tboh
Could I ask a basic Q here?

What is the carry round that has the lease problems. Least chance of KB, Miss feed, FTE, SSS and anything else that'll likely run into as a CCW.
.40 and 9mm in G23 in hand and possibly a G26 or 27 shortly.
Has anyone figured it out?
Thanks,
Least reported problems appear to be the 9mm models, which would be expected since they were designed to pass tough military acceptance trials, and they've had the longest production runs. But it has to do more with what ammo you shoot than anything else. As a CCW, I'd stick to known factory loads, and you should be fine with any caliber. And run about a case (500 rds) through it, maybe in IPSC, before you give it the thumbs up.

-- cw

jmacelree
03-28-2005, 11:41
Originally posted by philkryder
how can this happen?

If the slide moves back even a little, the trigger no longer operates the striker.

In a perfect world the design would not allow an "out of battery" firing. However, all mechanical devices can get out of alignment, suffer wear, malfunction, defect or failure.;g

philkryder
03-28-2005, 23:55
Originally posted by jmacelree
In a perfect world the design would not allow an "out of battery" firing. However, all mechanical devices can get out of alignment, suffer wear, malfunction, defect or failure.;g

Perhaps - but have you actually seen that happen?

I did a test with a 10mm case in my glock 35.

I trimmed the case little by little.

I could never get the trigger to function UNLESS the breech was tight against the barrel.

The example listed in the URL is described by the poster as a simple case failure - and was attributed by the poster due to overpressure reloads. That's not a gun failure.

philkryder
03-29-2005, 00:05
Originally posted by cw2go
By full lockup, I mean locking surfaces fully and completely engaged as required to take the full design pressure of normal firing, plus the design safety margin (which should handle significant overpressure for proof firing). At 1/16" back, it is close to lockup, but has just started disengaging (which I suspect is significant), and you can still pull the trigger, so you could conceivably get a kB! in that condition.

The most common kB! is not a failure of the barrel, slide, or frame, but a case failure in the unsupported area at the feed ramp, which is obvious if you examine a failed case or check out the pictures. (This differs from the original post here, which defines kB! in a manner contrary to that of the person who defined the term, who'se site URL I posted above.)

You can test your own pistol (AFTER confirming it is unloaded) by gently pressing back the slide and verifying where it reaches the point where you can no longer get the trigger to release. Once I get the upgrade kit installed (which includes 6 parts: a new Extractor, Spring-loaded bearing, Firing pin safety and spring, Firing pin / striker, Trigger bar) I will run the test again to see if reductes the distance above.

-- cw

I think that you pinpointed the key issue - though with Walter gone, I am only interpreting his post.

I am sure that as you state he intended KBs to mean only the barrel/slide failures - case failures are (under this definition not KBs, but rather ammo failures)...

Regarding the "out of battery" experiences, the high speed photos that I've seen show the bullets leaving the barrel (and I assume pressure falling to near zero) before there is any movement of the slide relative to the frame and barrel.

This is why I feel that if the breech is tight against the barrel then the slight backward downward movement that is possible is not significant.

From my reading of your URL reference, it seems thit you too attribute the failure to be due to ammo overpressure.

jmacelree
03-29-2005, 08:00
Originally posted by philkryder
Perhaps - but have you actually seen that happen?

I did a test with a 10mm case in my glock 35.

I trimmed the case little by little.

I could never get the trigger to function UNLESS the breech was tight against the barrel.

The example listed in the URL is described by the poster as a simple case failure - and was attributed by the poster due to overpressure reloads. That's not a gun failure. Correct for one of the URLs, but one does deal with out of battery.

Yes, I have had it happen.(non Glock). It is now "retired" because it was too old and not worth the repair cost. It sounds like your gun is working the way it was designed to work. So do my "active" guns. I really like my Glock products.:)

My point is that we need to check our equipment regularly to make sure it is in proper working order. [Like checking the brakes on your car]If your equipment is not working properly then get it fixed or retire it.

philkryder
03-29-2005, 08:29
Originally posted by jmacelree
.....
Yes, I have had it happen.(non Glock).
....
ok - thanks for that data point...

cw2go
04-05-2005, 06:27
Originally posted by philkryder
The example listed in the URL is described by the poster as a simple case failure - and was attributed by the poster due to overpressure reloads. That's not a gun failure.
First, I was the poster, so I know exactly what the writeup says, and what all the evidence looks like, since I still have it. It is possible that there was some overpressure (impossible to say for sure), but that was not likely to cause the kB! -- it was most likely a slight out-of-battery condition. This is not a "simple case failure". The case is not designed to contain that level of pressure without support. It is a combination of several elements, the most critical are the ability to fire slightly out-of-battery (i.e.- short of full lockup) combined with a partially unsupported chamber. If the pressure was high, then that may also have been a contributing factor. If I were to rewrite the linked post about the G19 kB! (since I was the orignal author), I would more clearly characterize it as a slightly out-of-battery discharge, as this is where the evidence points. It is important that owners of the earlier models understand there is an upgrade kit to avoid this condition. If you have an early model (as listed in the link), get the upgrade!!

As for the attempt of several apologists to redefine kB! as *only* an event that completely blows up the firearm is particularly inappropriate. That is NOT the definition of kB! Attempting to redefine away is an inappropriate way to address the problem, especially when it is avoidable. That's like having a doctor who tells you it isn't cancer unless it kills you, so don't worry about it. The term kB! was coined by Dean Speir, and he calls this a kB!, so I will stick with his definition, not that of some revisionist.

For those worried about the problem, read the linked acticle (above) about the upgrade kit and find out if your model needs it. Glock should have called it a recall and gotten the word out, but they didn't. Even without the upgrade, you will be okay if you avoid reloads, lead, plated slugs, and Federal cases (unless you really know what you are doing, or like taking chances). Do this and you will not have a problem. This sure beats wringing your hands and wondering if you are okay.

If you do experience a kB!, please share the detailed info so we are all kept informed, and make sure you report it to Glock and the ammo manufacturer, and one of them will take care of the parts and repairs.

-- cw

philkryder
04-05-2005, 19:45
Originally posted by cw2go
First, I was the poster, so I know exactly what the writeup says, and what all the evidence looks like, since I still have it.


It is possible that there was some overpressure (impossible to say for sure), but that was not likely to cause the kB! --
it was most likely a slight out-of-battery condition.



This is not a "simple case failure". The case is not designed to contain

that

level of pressure without support.




It is a combination of several elements, the most critical are the ability to fire slightly out-of-battery (i.e.- short of full lockup) combined with a partially unsupported chamber. If the pressure was high, then that may also have been a contributing factor. If I were to rewrite the linked post about the G19 kB! (since I was the orignal author), I would more clearly characterize it as a slightly out-of-battery discharge, as this is where the evidence points. It is important that owners of the earlier models understand there is an upgrade kit to avoid this condition. If you have an early model (as listed in the link), get the upgrade!!

As for the attempt of several apologists to redefine kB! as *only* an event that completely blows up the firearm is particularly inappropriate. That is NOT the definition of kB! Attempting to redefine away is an inappropriate way to address the problem, especially when it is avoidable. That's like having a doctor who tells you it isn't cancer unless it kills you, so don't worry about it. The term kB! was coined by Dean Speir, and he calls this a kB!, so I will stick with his definition, not that of some revisionist.

For those worried about the problem, read the linked acticle (above) about the upgrade kit and find out if your model needs it. Glock should have called it a recall and gotten the word out, but they didn't. Even without the upgrade, you will be okay if you avoid reloads, lead, plated slugs, and Federal cases (unless you really know what you are doing, or like taking chances). Do this and you will not have a problem. This sure beats wringing your hands and wondering if you are okay.

If you do experience a kB!, please share the detailed info so we are all kept informed, and make sure you report it to Glock and the ammo manufacturer, and one of them will take care of the parts and repairs.

-- cw

Sorry for misinterpreting what you had written -


Here is the part of your URL post that made me term it a simple case failure - I note that you use the term "classic" rather than "simple" - my apologies.
....
Examination of the Glock and case show it to be a classic case failure kB!

Here is the part that made me suspect the ammo.
....
This commercial "reload" from a local firm was one of only 17 or so reloaded rounds ever fired through this pistol and examination of the primer showed a greater-than-expected flattening effect and engraving of primer metal, with a slight extrusion into the primer pin recess....


Regarding whether the cause was out of battery or overpressure:

We know that there were signs of overpressure per your post.

We also know that other rounds in this batch showed over pressure - again per your post.

We also know that Glocks do not fully support the case - per your references and many others.

We also know from your photos that the case failure occured ONLY in the unsupported area and not all the way around the case.

What I don't know is why you go from the above data to your opinion that
"...it was most likely a slight out-of-battery condition."


I will restate my reasons for disbelief in
"out of battery experiences" -
1) Though the trigger on a glock CAN activate the striker when the barrel is pushed slightly down and back, THE BREECH IS STILL TIGHT against the barrel and bullet.
2) all high speed photos of pistol bullets, that I have seen exiting a barrel have thus far always shown the bullet exiting the barrel BEFORE the slide-barrel begins to move relative to the frame. Any contrary photo would be very welcome.


Regarding whether to use Dean Speir's definition of KB rather than Walter's

I appreciate the argument that since Dean coined the term, it should mean exactly what he meant it to mean (sort of like the Cheshire cat in Alice)...

But, I also appreciate that language evolves, and I think that Walter was attempting to draw a clarifing distinction between different types of failures.

Vincep
04-06-2005, 22:56
Glocks aren't the only firearms that can kaboom. My Kel tec Sub 2000 kaboomed tonight. It's that dammed 40 caliber.



http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368499

JSOO
04-08-2005, 12:13
Pardon my ignorance here as I am new to the technical side of shooting but just what is a KB?

fabricator
04-08-2005, 13:30
Originally posted by JSOO
Pardon my ignorance here as I am new to the technical side of shooting but just what is a KB?


KaaaaaaaaBooooooommmmmmm! It is when something causes a firearm to make like a hand grenade, they can but seldom do cause serious injury, much is made of it on the internet, but it is really much ado about very little.

cw2go
04-09-2005, 07:46
Originally posted by philkryder
Sorry for misinterpreting what you had written -
.........
Regarding whether the cause was out of battery or overpressure:
We know that there were signs of overpressure per your post.
We also know that other rounds in this batch showed over pressure - again per your post.
We also know that Glocks do not fully support the case - per your references and many others.
We also know from your photos that the case failure occured ONLY in the unsupported area and not all the way around the case.
What I don't know is why you go from the above data to your opinion that
"...it was most likely a slight out-of-battery condition."

I will restate my reasons for disbelief in
"out of battery experiences" -
1) Though the trigger on a glock CAN activate the striker when the barrel is pushed slightly down and back, THE BREECH IS STILL TIGHT against the barrel and bullet.
2) all high speed photos of pistol bullets, that I have seen exiting a barrel have thus far always shown the bullet exiting the barrel BEFORE the slide-barrel begins to move relative to the frame. Any contrary photo would be very welcome.

Regarding whether to use Dean Speir's definition of KB rather than Walter's
I appreciate the argument that since Dean coined the term, it should mean exactly what he meant it to mean (sort of like the Cheshire cat in Alice)...

But, I also appreciate that language evolves, and I think that Walter was attempting to draw a clarifing distinction between different types of failures.
Phil,
I can understand the confusion. Way back when I wrote up the original description (over 2 years ago, although there were a few recent additions/edits, it is mostly what I wrote the day it happened), I simply indicated all those items I thought might be involved. In the (considerable) intervening time, I have listened to and tested other ideas. Dean pointed out that "reading" primers was not a reliable measure of pressure. I originally balked at this, but it is a good point -- I was comparing primers of different, unknown brands. If I had reloaded the ammunition myself, and used the same brand and batch of primers (and shells, and slugs, etc.) then I would have a handle on more variables. But that is not the situation -- different primers, cases, and powders were all involved, and the primers that appeared more flattened may be softer primers. So that is just one data point in the analysis. I did not know the G19 could fire without being fully in battery, but testing shows I can move the slide a little, perhaps 3/32" (not exactly "tight against the barrel"), which I think may be enough to allow the case to set back slightly and blow out near the rim, as in the photos. Newer Glocks apparently will not do this, I'm told, and I have new parts from Glock to install to (hopefully) remedy this. Yours may not do this, but mine can.

So what do I think happened? I think it was the cheap plated slugs (which appeared to be jacketed, but I got fooled), which were slightly irregular, may have shaved off just a bit of metal into the chamber neck area and reduced my headspace. And/or the cases might have been slightly oversized. And the round let the slide close enough to discharge, but not quite enough to go to "full lockup" -- maybe 1/16th short -- and this -- possible combined with a slightly hotter charge -- allowed the slide to move back slightly more at discharge, and to blow out the side of the case in the unsupported area. It's just my theory, but I have had a long time to look at all the evidence, and I think it is the most probable cause. I may be wrong, but it has never had a problem with factory loads, and I have fired well over 1,000 rds (of white box Win 115 gr solids) in IPSC matches since then, with no changes other than replacing the damaged parts, so I have confidence in it, although I now know about and have received all the Glock "upgrade" parts, so these will go in before I do much more shooting.

The bottom line to all of this: you can parse my words, and others can come up with creative new definitions of what a kB! really is, but that's just talk. It doesn't solve anything. What is productive is if people do their homework and check to see if their Glocks need the upgrade, and get it done if they qualify. And they can check to see if theirs can discharge with the slide set back over 1/16" or so. And they should avoid lead or plated slugs, Federal ammo (at least for 9mm and .40), and reloads (unless they are *very* experienced and can control tolerances quite well). Maybe those precautions are not necessary with the new ones, and maybe not if you put on a better barrel.

I'd like to see people get the word, because Glock has not done a recall and NEVER tried to get the word out that people they need this "upgrade". I didn't know. I had NO idea this was possible (although I have seen perhaps 100 or more notices about Remington safeties and Ruger SA safety upgrades). The precise reason it happened is not certain. How to keep it from happening is pretty well known. So the productive focus is on getting the word out to other Glock owners rather than (as it happens) trying to correct people on different boards who want to reintepret what happened as being something different, or to try to redefine what a kB! as something else, or to say there is nothing to worry about -- that rubs the wrong way. (The language here is not "evolving", it is being misused, hijacking a term to exclude events which it specifically includes. And I don't need a high-speed camera to tell me it didn't stay locked up long enough, and it isn't supposed to blow pieces out in your hand and leave me feeling like I forgot to let go of a firecracker. That was some pretty powerful "contrary evidence" that it didn't stay locked up long enough.)

But the message is to pay attention and stay safe, since Glock refused to recall the affected pistols, and just isn't getting the word out. What happened, happened. If any of you guys need the "upgrade", get it (go to the web site I listed a few days ago in a prior post for details) -- and tell Glock that responsible corporations get the word out to their customers BEFORE they have a catastrophic event, not after. Let them know what you think of their policy of saving a few bucks by calling a recall situation an "upgrade" to prevent it from blow pieces out in your hand and disabling itself in the process.

-- cw

philkryder
04-09-2005, 21:21
CW -

First let me thank you for taking the time to explain and re-clarify.

So often these discussion degenerate into name calling and personal accusations - rather than a rational review of the facts.

I agree folks would do well to insure that their guns are well maintained and in good working order.

Also, it is both true and a good point that you have much more experience with your gun than anyone else has had.

When you pull the slide back that 1/16 of an inch doesn't the barrel just slide down the incline in the locking block?
Does it really move away from the breech?

The reason that I keep coming back to this point is that about a year ago I tried to make my G35 40 cal fire with a gap between the barrel and the breech.

I started with an empty 10mm. case.
It is the same diameter as my .40 but with a larger primer and is of course a bit longer.

I then got a Lee case trimmer.
I would put the case into the barrel and try to close the gun and get it to fire.

I could never get the barrel to even start up the ramp in the locking block - until the case was short enough to allow the slide to close completely.
Based on that experiment it just seems more likely and simpler that the pressure exceeded the case's strenght.
Especially since the failure occurred in the unsupported part of the case and not all around the case.

I dont know if you can try something similar with the 9mm.

thanks
Phil

cw2go
04-12-2005, 05:59
Phil - You are correct in your undertone that none of us *really* knows, we are all justa trying to figure this out, and many of us are just trying to contribute clues and assemble facts, which was what my original write-up was for.

You are approaching the slide lockup question from a different direction. I just tried moving the slide slightly to the rear (simulating a case which was not fully seated) until the trigger would no longer give me that characteristic Glock click. Yes, the barrel drops at an incline, and does not make a big gap at the breech, but I think if you are starting ANYWHERE short of full design lcokup/closure, the slide will begin moving earlier, expose slightly more case, and the unsupported area on the case then may give way. kB!

This is just my theory after spending hours with inspection lights and trying to see just how the thing could fail like that. And (based on early reports that Glocks had no problem with hot Israeli, +P, and CorBon-type ammo), and considering they must contain a proof load, the pressure theory didn't seem to be a good fit. Incomplete lockup did. That was a puzzlement until I went back to examine the ammo I bought, and found that the "jackets" were suprisingly irregular. After some discussion on another board (Battlerifles or Amback, I think), it was suggested that this was not really jacketed ammo, just plated. Bingo!! That's what it looks like -- that, or the world's most wavy, irregular jacket. I know on some firearms, like M1As, Garands, and BM59/62 types, reduced headspace can cause interesting problems that look like something else. This happens when the tiny shoulder at the chamber neck cruds up. This sounds like a possible. Others thought the casing was not properly sized, but Glocks chamber is "military" oversize. I don't think it was the chamber, I think it was the slug, where tolerences are less precise with a cast slug getting an imprecise jacket, you have the option for tiny shavings to accumulate at the neck. This prevents complete lockup of the slide (probably a bad term, since it doesn't really lock like a rotating bolt would...), which exacerbates the unsupported chamber issue. If there was higher than normal pressure, this could also have been a contributing factor.... Again, these are only theories, but I suspect it was more than one thing that led to this, as these are thoroughly tested arms, and very few -- even of this earlier generation -- have had any problems.

-- cw

skar
04-14-2005, 10:10
Have a g17(and love it) and would like to get a .40 or 10mm
? how are the sigs on kabooms.?

Joe D
05-05-2005, 06:17
They will all blow up if double charged/over charged. Bullet set back will also cause a gun to blow.

philkryder
05-05-2005, 21:26
Originally posted by cw2go
.....
I just tried moving the slide slightly to the rear (simulating a case which was not fully seated)
...

The tests I did - (with a case (10 mm) that could not fully seat in my .40 cal)
indicated that if the case is not fully seated, then the breech cannot close against the barrel.
And the slide cannot go up the incline.

Try it and let me know what you learn...

Washington,D.C.
05-06-2005, 13:06
Originally posted by WalterGA
The purpose of this thread isn't to be contentious relative to this frequently misunderstood subject, but rather to offer a little rational thought and a few facts. (Particularly for the newbies who might have been influenced by the Internet Ignorami)

First, whether a pistol, eg., Glock, has a supported or unsupported chamber is generally irrelevant to the subject of KB's. While an unsupported chamber might contribute to a case failure, a case failure does not constitute a KB.

So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)

In order for a case failure @ 6 o'clock to cause a KB, one would have to accept the premise that such a failure would cause dramatic increases in chamber pressure. Does anybody really believe that a RELEASE of pressure @ 6 o'clock will increase chamber pressure? Ever take h.s. physics? If not, or if you failed h.s. physics, then perhaps you should try writing for a gunrag or sponsoring a specious internet site.

Let's use an analogy for the purposes of demonstrating the silliness of blaming lack of case support for KB's. Ever fill up an air tank? Ever wonder what happens to a steam boiler or water heater when tank pressures exceed the tanks' pressure maximums? Well, if the tank has a pop-off valve or other method of releasing pressure, not much happens. With no such relief mechanism, a lot happens, catastrophically. Get the analogy with pistol chambers? If you don't, then, well, good luck with your life.

Photos of blown-up pistols on websites prove nothing, nor make any statements about the design features of that particular blown-up pistol. The picture might just reflect the statistical quality control anomaly of a factory round, or it might indicate an overcharged reload. The posting of a picture or anecdote on the internet doesn't give one any facts at all regarding KB's. (Even if the photos are of G21's blown up by police officers)

There are, I believe, over 2 million Glocks alive and well worldwide. If, as is claimed by the uninformed, Glock's design causes Glocks to randomly explode, then we'd certainly be hearing of more than just a few random cases of exploded Glocks on the internet. Nope, if design flaws were the problem, we'd be seeing tens of thousands of blown-up Glocks, government-demanded recalls, and not just the few "examples" that are posted here-and-there.

Now for my own anecdote. I've fired somewhere in the vicinity of 150,000 rounds of my reloads through my Glocks, mostly through G21's. Matt, of CGR, and others, have fired many times more of their reloads through their Glocks than I have through mine. I reload my .45ACP's until the necks split. I've never even had a 6 o'clock case failure, let alone a KB, using a factory Glock barrel.

I did experience a KB with my original G21 (see photo), using an aftermarket barrel, powder that was too fast, bullet that was too heavy, and a little of my own carelessness mixed in. Clearly had a feedramp bullet setback, with the expected KB. Please note that the case is split down its entire length. If this had been a 6 o'clock blowout, the case would only have failed @ 6 o'clock.

Glocks are among the safest pistols in use today. They are not subject to an abnormal risk of KB. If you overcharge, or, especially, doublecharge a round or use an overcharged or doublecharged factory round, your pistol, regardless of manufacturer, will probably KB.

It's as simple as that.

atmarcella
05-06-2005, 20:24
the question now is: are glocks more prone to "case failure's" compared to other pistols bcos of its unsupported barrel, tendency to fire out of battery etc.?

2nd question: in the event of a case failure, is the damage to a glock more catastrophic compared to other pistols? i have personally seen a case failure on a taurus "all steel" pistol, and i think its slide stop just came loose, guys at my club blamed the brass/shell, it was a "pmc" shell.

thanks in advance:)

Quail Fat
05-30-2005, 23:35
Upgrade, smupgrade.. That won't fix a piss-poor chamber. The problem is simply the Glock chamber walls are too thin and the tennifer surface hardening makes it brittle.. The 40 Glock chamber is simply a reamed out 9mm chamber, the 45 chamber is simply a reamed out 10mm chamber.

When other brands of polymer guns kaBoom, the chambers don't blow apart like the Glock. Other brands of polymer guns have a lot thicker chambers.

Bullet setback, lead in the barrel or a double charge of powder, when combined with a thin chamber is a receipe for disaster.

Good luck finding a picture of an XD or H&K chamber than has failed.

Here is a picture if my XD-40sc chamber. Notice how thick it is and how it supports the case. If I did have a kaBoom, my reciever would be trashed, but at least I won't have to worry about shrapnel from a grenaded chamber exploding in my face. Now feild strip your 40 caliber Glock, insert bullet into chamber and take a look at it..

I'd like to see somebody take a similar photograph and post it on this forum. It's a design flaw, and nothing will convince me otherwise.;b

Quail Fat
06-04-2005, 20:59
Here is a Glock chamber for comparison with the above post.

qiqazz
06-10-2005, 14:08
I think it's sad that this has to be sticky. There are no conclusions in this entire guide that an individual of reasonable intelligence, and minimal education shouldn't be able to reach on their own. Yet some won't accept facts that contadict their beliefs-- unless they are presented in a manner which requires sufficient hoop-jumping in the form of occasional usage of terms that they learned in school. This seems to be how they(individuals of reasonable intelligence who think themselves superior to genius) determine that you are on par with their grossly exaggerated minimum level of reasoning set to determine whether or not a view is fact or fallacy, regardless of the tangibility of their own original belief *cough Dean Speir cough*.

qiqazz
06-10-2005, 14:27
I shouldn't say too much about Speir, as if it weren't for his kb! page's liberal use of anecdotal 'evidence', and general Glock bashing(consisting primarily of lies- not even bent truthes just made up on the spot information almost as if the 'Brady Campaign' manages his site and 'research') with frequent references to GlockTalk Forums, I would have never found this place. Kudos to Speir for introducing me to you guys!

jupiter
06-10-2005, 15:15
I have Several Glock pistols and love them.
I carry a Glock 23 Daily and would bet my life on one.
With that said, I do think a Glock is more likely to KB than other pistols.
Just look at the other forums.
Do they have a KB sticky?
Almost everyone I know (People who do alot of shooting that is)have had or witnessed or know someone who has had a KB with a Glock at one time or another.
If you use good ammo, It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY you will ever have a problem with a glock.
If you shoot reloads, LEAD or FMJ, you run a Greater chance of a KB with a glock than with a sig, beretta ,hk or 1911.
I know some who reload all the time for Glocks without problems.
But you better be careful with Brass selection etc. (AMERC) for one.

If I carry one, I must not be too worried about a KB!

BeBop
06-13-2005, 11:37
Appologies in advance ... What does KB stand for?

TrapdoorBilly
06-13-2005, 13:24
Originally posted by BeBop
Appologies in advance ... What does KB stand for?

KA-BOOM

TrapdoorBilly
06-13-2005, 14:31
Originally posted by Quail Fat

Bullet setback, lead in the barrel or a double charge of powder, when combined with a thin chamber is a receipe for disaster.



Lead in a barrel may or may not cause a problem in some handguns, bullet setback sure can raise pressures and double charges of certain powders will almost always cause problems. Have never personally seen a blown Glock, heck I just bought my 1st one, a Glock rebuilt G-23, but I have seen some Single Action and double Action revolvers blow from what I assume were double charges. Did see one S&W M-36 with a blown cyl. due to what looked like a blockage in the bbl. With as many Glocks out there as ther are I am not surprised that some have failed, the question becomes is it a flaw with the gun or what was being fired in it. Saying it hase not happened to an XD or HK is just foolish, at best.

Quail Fat
06-13-2005, 16:40
Originally posted by TrapdoorBilly
Saying it hasent happened to an XD or HK is just foolish, at best.

You won't find an XD or an H&K chamber that has ruptured, however there are a lot of Glock chambers that have burst. :)

Again, you won't find a picture, nor has anybody reported a ruptured XD and/or H&K chamber.

Glock chambers are thin, loose and sloppy. Look at the picture, the XD and H&K has the best support and has a thick chamber wall.

gary newport
06-13-2005, 16:48
Originally posted by Quail Fat
You won't find an XD or an H&K chamber that has ruptured, however there are a lot of Glock chambers that have burst. :)

Again, you won't find a picture, nor has anybody reported a ruptured XD and/or H&K chamber.

Glock chambers are thin, loose and sloppy. Look at the picture, the XD and H&K has the best support and has a thick chamber wall.

You won't? An XD or H&K can't be blown up by a serious overpressure event? As Walter would probably say, "horsehockey!" Do you know any more funny stories?

Thick or thin, put too much pressure in that chamber and it WILL blow!

fabricator
06-13-2005, 17:35
Originally posted by Quail Fat
You won't find an XD or an H&K chamber that has ruptured, however there are a lot of Glock chambers that have burst. :)

Again, you won't find a picture, nor has anybody reported a ruptured XD and/or H&K chamber.

Glock chambers are thin, loose and sloppy. Look at the picture, the XD and H&K has the best support and has a thick chamber wall.

Send me one of each and I'll blow it six ways from sunday, I have personally seen a head separation in an hk that trashed the frame, the same would happen in an xd, and as far as burst chambers are concerned the stronger the containment the stronger the bomb.

sneakyracer
06-13-2005, 18:48
Originally posted by Quail Fat
Here is a Glock chamber for comparison with the above post.

I checked all my three pistols, Glock 17, 27 and a Kimber .45 5" , I removed the barrels and inserted a new cartridge in all three. They ALL looked like the photo you posted. The cartridge wasnt fully supported all the way to the back in the 6 o clock position.

All three catridges exposed just about the same ammount of brass in that area.

I think its inherent of the browing type pistol design.

Quail Fat
06-13-2005, 19:10
Originally posted by fabricator
Send me one of each and I'll blow it six ways from sunday, I have personally seen a head separation in an hk that trashed the frame, the same would happen in an xd, and as far as burst chambers are concerned the stronger the containment the stronger the bomb.

Duh.. Of course the reciever will blow. I never said it wouldn't. It's the chamber on the Glock that blows. With the H&K and XD, bullet setback or a double charge of powder will only trash the reciever. There isn't enough powder to blow the chamber, the only thing that blows is the case.

The Glock chamber is loose. As the brass expands, it slaps into the wall of the chamber. If you slap it hard enough the chamber will burst. With a snug XD or H&K chamber, there isn't enough room for the brass to slap it, like it does with the Glock.

You won't see the chamber blow on the H&K and the XD. It will never happen...

fabricator
06-13-2005, 19:25
Originally posted by Quail Fat
Duh.. Of course the reciever will blow. I never said it wouldn't. It's the chamber on the Glock that blows. With the H&K and XD, bullet setback or a double charge of powder will only trash the reciever. There isn't enough powder to blow the chamber, the only thing that blows is the case.

The Glock chamber is loose. As the brass expands, it slaps into the wall of the chamber. If you slap it hard enough the chamber will burst. With a snug XD or H&K chamber, there isn't enough room for the brass to slap it, like it does with the Glock.

You won't see the chamber blow on the H&K and the XD. It will never happen...

Not true, many kbs you read of are caused by case head separations, and your theory on why kbs happen is patently ridiculous, I dont know where to start it is so wrong, you actually think the case wall slapping the chamber causes ruptures?

Quail Fat
06-13-2005, 20:35
Originally posted by fabricator
Not true, many kbs you read of are caused by case head separations, and your theory on why kbs happen is patently ridiculous, I dont know where to start it is so wrong, you actually think the case wall slapping the chamber causes ruptures?

Why would a case head separation cause a Glock chamber to burst?

Nobody elses chambers burst from a case head separtaion...

The case wall slapping the chamber causes metallurgical stress of the chamber. The thinnest area of the chamber is at the 4 and 8 o'clock position. This area doesn't have the neccessary strength to contain a case head separation, this is where Glock chambers will usually start to separate.

In most pistols, the gasses will vent out of the weakest part of the case. With the Glock, this will be the thinnest area of the case, were it is unsupported. This is also the location of the 4 and 8 o'clock position.

What else causes Glock chambers to blow apart?

Again, why do Glock chambers explode and H&K and XD chambers stay together?

Why are the only chambers that blow apart, Glock chambers?

I've never heard of a Sig chamber blowing apart. Nor have I heard of a Ruger, H&K, XD, or a Steyr chamber exploding.

gary newport
06-13-2005, 20:45
Originally posted by Quail Fat
Why would a case head separation cause a Glock chamber to burst?

Nobody elses chambers burst from a case head separtaion...

The case wall slapping the chamber causes metallurgical stress of the chamber. The thinnest area of the chamber is at the 4 and 8 o'clock position. This area doesn't have the neccessary strength to contain a case head separation, this is where Glock chambers will usually start to separate.

In most pistols, the gasses will vent out of the weakest part of the case. With the Glock, this will be the thinnest area of the case, were it is unsupported. This is also the location of the 4 and 8 o'clock position.

What else causes Glock chambers to blow apart?

Again, why do Glock chambers explode and H&K and XD chambers stay together?

Why are the only chambers that blow apart, Glock chambers?

I've never heard of a Sig chamber blowing apart. Nor have I heard of a Ruger, H&K, XD, or a Steyr chamber exploding.

As Walter pointed out when he started this thread, a case failure is NOT a kB! A 9mm fired in a Glock .40 has a catastrophic case failure, yet nothing at all happens to the gun, even though the chamber gets "slapped" with the radically-expanded 9mm case. A simple case failure might blow the magazine out and do a few minor things to some frame parts, but it will NOT rupture the chamber by "slapping" it!

More to the point: if you think that Glocks are the ONLY handguns to experience kBs, you need to get out more. Come to the range I frequent and you'll see two big Smith N-frames and a bull-strong Ruger hanging on the wall with topstraps bowed and broken. An overpressure event can be catastrophic for any gun.

BeBop
06-13-2005, 21:22
Thanks, Trap! Lots to learn. It sounds like KB's are due to ammo, as opposed to the firearm. Of course, I also can't seem to get the smilies to show up on my Mac. Darn Junior members!!!

Quail Fat
06-13-2005, 22:50
Originally posted by gary newport
As Walter pointed out when he started this thread, a case failure is NOT a kB!

Obviously case failure is not a kB. I never said it was. A kB is the chamber exloding and blowing shrapnel all over Kingdon Come, which seemingly, Glock has cornered the market with regards to pistols.

Originally posted by gary newport
A 9mm fired in a Glock .40 has a catastrophic case failure, yet nothing at all happens to the gun, even though the chamber gets "slapped" with the radically-expanded 9mm case. A simple case failure might blow the magazine out and do a few minor things to some frame parts, but it will NOT rupture the chamber by "slapping" it!

The 9mm fired in a 40 won't cause a kB because the 9mm brass won't slap the 40 chamber. Probably because eithr the bullet will exit the case and vent the gases around the bullet out the front of the barrel, or the 9mm brass will tear before it has the chance to expand to 40 caliber. The slow moving bullet will simply funnel it's way out of the end of the barrel at whatever velocity it left the case.


I never said GLocks are the ONLY handguns to experience kBs. I said GLocks are the only PISTOLS. A big Smith N-frame is a REVOLVER. Yes revolvers will explode. We are discussing polymer framed pistols..


Here are some questions for you:

If the expanding brass slapping the Glock chamber wall doesn't cause the chamber to rupture, then what does? It does happen does it not? This question, for some reason never gets an answer. (Hint: Think loose, thin, brittle and unsupported)

Why do XDs, SigSaurs and H&K chambers stay together? I've never heard of one, nor have I seen a picture of a grenaded chamber from one of these three gun manufacturers. However, there are plenty of photographs, range stories and WWW reports of Glock chambers that have been trashed.

A tight unsupported chamber, like a Beretta 40 doesn't explode.. Yet some Glock 40/45 chambers do explode. It is VERY VERY rare, but it is nonetheless a fact.

Glock chambers sometimes burst, yet other manufacturers chambers do not. (referring to XD, Sigs and H&K)

Sigs, XD and H&K chambers are not only tighter, but also support the brass and are thicker. That is a fact. Glock chambers are loose, thin and offer less chamber support,this is also a fact.

Originally posted by gary newport
More to the point: if you think that Glocks are the ONLY handguns to experience kBs, you need to get out more. Come to the range I frequent and you'll see two big Smith N-frames and a bull-strong Ruger hanging on the wall with topstraps bowed and broken. An overpressure event can be catastrophic for any gun.

An overpressure will cause an XD, SigPro and an H&K USP/P-2000 to blow up the polymer frame, but for Lords sake, the freakin' chambers don't fly apart like the do on a Glock.

There are very few reports of a Glock chamber staying together while the frame comes apart. Glock chambers are simply inferior. Why is this such a hard pill to swallow? I own a Glock 21, I shoot it all the time. It has never malfuctioned and realistically it more than likely won't have a kB.

With my XD, there isn't a remote possibilty of my chamber coming apart. It's impossible. The XD chamber is overengineered.

It should be obvious that Glock simply didn't do any plugged bore tests with their guns prior to releasing them. Heckler and Koch and SigSaur, along with Rugers and designed to not blow apart their chambers with a plugged bore.

fabricator
06-14-2005, 06:18
Originally posted by Quail Fat


Here are some questions for you:

If the expanding brass slapping the Glock chamber wall doesn't cause the chamber to rupture, then what does? It does happen does it not? This question, for some reason never gets an answer. (Hint: Think loose, thin, brittle chamber

No, the case "slapping" the chamber wall does not cause the chamber to explode, where did you get this "slapping" theory? Is it your own? Or do you have a some data to cite? The reason chambers explode, and it can happen on any firearm from the largest bore rifle to the smallest pistol, is there is an over pressure event, wether it be from to much powder or an obstructed bore, if you were to put a bullet in a paper cartridge and double charge it with fast burning powder and fire it, it would cause a ruptured chamber just the same as you would have with a brass case, would that be because the paper "slapped" the chamber hard enough? The simple answer to your question is the brass case "slapping" the chamber has nothing to do with rupturing the chamber, it is a simple matter of overpressure, the case actually helps contain the explosion it adds to the overall strength of the chamber, take fast burning powder and pack it in a pipe with a fuse, set it off, what happens?
There was no brass case to "slap" the inside of the pipe, why did it explode? There was to much pressure for the pipe to contain so it ruptured thats why.
If glock started making rubber cases would chamber ruptures be a thing of the past? There would be no case "slap" right? or better yet a caseless cartridge it would be impossible for one to blow up because there is no case to "slap" the chamber right?

TrapdoorBilly
06-14-2005, 06:56
^ The more of QF I read the more convinced I am that his only problem, if you can call it that, is he does not like Glocks.

Quail Fat
06-14-2005, 07:15
Originally posted by fabricator
No, the case "slapping" the chamber wall does not cause the chamber to explode, where did you get this "slapping" theory? Is it your own? Or do you have a some data to cite? The reason chambers explode, and it can happen on any firearm from the largest bore rifle to the smallest pistol, is there is an over pressure event, wether it be from to much powder or an obstructed bore, if you were to put a bullet in a paper cartridge and double charge it with fast burning powder and fire it, it would cause a ruptured chamber just the same as you would have with a brass case, would that be because the paper "slapped" the chamber hard enough? The simple answer to your question is the brass case "slapping" the chamber has nothing to do with rupturing the chamber, it is a simple matter of overpressure, the case actually helps contain the explosion it adds to the overall strength of the chamber, take fast burning powder and pack it in a pipe with a fuse, set it off, what happens?
There was no brass case to "slap" the inside of the pipe, why did it explode? There was to much pressure for the pipe to contain so it ruptured thats why.
If glock started making rubber cases would chamber ruptures be a thing of the past? There would be no case "slap" right? or better yet a caseless cartridge it would be impossible for one to blow up because there is no case to "slap" the chamber right?

Maybe slapping is a poor choice of words. If loose chambers are such a great idea, how come only Glock uses them?

Jeez.. why can't somebody tell me why Glock chambers explode and why H&Ks, Sigs and XD don't?

Once again, my question is avoided.

Quail Fat
06-14-2005, 07:24
Originally posted by TrapdoorBilly
^ The more of QF I read the more convinced I am that his only problem, if you can call it that, is he does not like Glocks.

I don't hate Glocks. Did you even read my post? I've owned over 20 of them and I shoot Glocks very well.

Will somebody please answer this simple question.

1. During case head separation, Why do some Glock chambers explode, while H&K/Sig/XD chambers do not explode?

fabricator
06-14-2005, 07:34
Originally posted by Quail Fat
I don't hate Glocks. Did you even read my post? I've owned over 20 of them and I shoot Glocks very well.

Will somebody please answer this simple question.

1. During case head separation, Why do some Glock chambers explode, while H&K/Sig/XD chambers do not explode?

Did you read my post or do you just choose to ignore it, can you state categorically that there has never been a rupture of a hk or xd chamber?

fabricator
06-14-2005, 07:37
In order for your question to be relevant you have to be able to prove there has never been a rupture of an hk or xd chamber.

Quail Fat
06-14-2005, 09:03
Originally posted by fabricator
In order for your question to be relevant you have to be able to prove there has never been a rupture of an hk or xd chamber.

There hasn't been. You can't prove otherwise.;)

So I have to prove there has never been a rupture of an XD/H&K/SigSauer chamber for my question to be relevant?

I have searched all over the web and have never read of any reports, nor have I ever heard of any reports, nor have I ever seen a photograph or witnessed an H&K/XD/SigSaur chamber explode. I can't offer any more proof than that.

Why can't the Glock 40/45 chamber contain a case-head separation??

fabricator
06-14-2005, 09:22
Originally posted by Quail Fat
There hasn't been. You can't prove otherwise.;)

So I have to prove there has never been a rupture of an XD/H&K/SigSauer chamber for my question to be relevant?

I have searched all over the web and have never read of any reports, nor have I ever heard of any reports, nor have I ever seen a photograph or witnessed an H&K/XD/SigSaur chamber explode. I can't offer any more proof than that.

Why can't the Glock 40/45 chamber contain a case-head separation??

There is a very simple answer to that one, the chamber will not rupture upon case head separation, the case fails at the six oclock position and high pressure gases are blown out thru the magwell, causing the mag to be blown out and often cracking the frame as has happened here (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/hk-kb.html) And would happen on an xd also, can you prove that a case head separation has ever caused a glock chamber to rupture?
I have personally had case head separations with glock, colt, kimber, in all these events the chamber did not rupture, and the only damage to the guns was trashed mags and in the glock a broken mag relaese, these were all case head separations and nothing happened the chamber here is the one that I had in my 21 note the intact chamber.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/fabricator01/DSC00041.jpg

Quail Fat
06-14-2005, 09:57
Originally posted by fabricator
There is a very simple answer to that one, the chamber will not rupture upon case head separation, the case fails at the six oclock position and high pressure gases are blown out thru the magwell...

Sometimes the Glock chamber will rupture upon case head separation yet H&Ks, Sigs and XDs do not.

This won't happen to an XD (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g35-fed40b.html)

fabricator
06-14-2005, 10:08
Originally posted by Quail Fat
Sometimes the Glock chamber will rupture upon case head separation yet H&Ks, Sigs and XDs do not.

This won't happen to an XD (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g35-fed40b.html)

Never say never my friend, neither of us can state categorically that there are no xd or hk barrels out there with blown chambers, only a fool would do so, when at any time he could be proven to be wrong, there is also the numbers thing, there are hundreds of thousands more glocks out there than hk or xd combined, therefore there is a much larger chance that any given thing is going to happen in the glock.

Quail Fat
06-14-2005, 10:24
Originally posted by fabricator
Never say never my friend, neither of us can state categorically that there are no xd or hk barrels out there with blown chambers, only a fool would do so, when at any time he could be proven to be wrong, there is also the numbers thing, there are hundreds of thousands more glocks out there than hk or xd combined, therefore there is a much larger chance that any given thing is going to happen in the glock.

There are more 1911s out there than Glock 21s. Not too many reports of 1911 chambers going south..

;b

jmacelree
06-14-2005, 10:45
After many years of shooting and reading, I have come to the conclusion that all guns, under the proper (bad) conditions, can explode causing damage (call it a KB or what ever you want). To determine the cause of the explosion damage, a full examination of all components is required and as many variables need to be eliminated as possible.

Even the massive 8 inch guns of the USS IOWA could not contain a charge that was too hot for a heavy projectile, but it took a team of experts to find the true cause. Check out below for details.

http://anil299.tripod.com/vol_003_no_001/reviews/pb/page004.html

In general, the dynamics of over pressure explosions causing damage are the same for all types of pistols, revolvers, rifles, shot guns and cannons. In the most basic terms, the damage relates to to how high the pressure gets, how fast the pressure is lowered by venting and where the venting occurs. Variables such as locked/unlocked breach, chamber/barrel thickness, heavy or light recoil springs, material used in construction, type and weight of powder charge, primer, design and material of casing, head spacing, design and fit of bullet, rifling, condition of gun, and etc.,etc., all factor into the end result. The true or full cause of a KB may prove to be very simple or very complicated.

The pressure caused by the expanding gas of the burning powder must vent (be released) somewhere unless the chamber/barrel is strong enough to fully contain it. In all probability, it will vent first at the point of least resistance. Without an obstructed barrel, given proper a proper powder charge, proper head spacing and a properly sized bullet, the normal point of least resistance is to push the projectile (bullet) down the barrel. However, all may not be proper or normal.

If a round is double charged with a fast burning powder or the bullet is too heavy for the charge, an over pressure condition will result -KB. If a squib round lodges in the barrel and a second round is fired without clearing the obstruction, an over pressure condition will result - KB. If the bullet is physically retarded from moving out of the case, an over pressure condition will result - KB. The over pressure condition may result in some damage to the gun, barrel or casing - KB. If the casing is not fully seated into the chamber before detonation, the casing will not likely contain the pressure and will rupture - KB. The rupture may also cause secondary damage or detonation - KB. An explosion with negative consequences will likely occur from the above circumstances. The extent and area of damage will depend on many factors including the design of the gun.

In short, over pressure and/or malfunction can blow up ANY gun, so proceed with caution and common sense.

fabricator
06-14-2005, 11:32
Originally posted by Quail Fat
There are more 1911s out there than Glock 21s. Not too many reports of 1911 chambers going south..

;b

Do you have actual numbers of glock and 1911 chambers that have failed? If not any conjecture is meaningless.

Quail Fat
06-14-2005, 14:09
Originally posted by fabricator
Do you have actual numbers of glock and 1911 chambers that have failed? If not any conjecture is meaningless.

Here's a snippet for you.. (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html)

fabricator
06-14-2005, 14:55
Originally posted by Quail Fat
Here's a snippet for you.. (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html)

As I thought, good luck on you quest my friend, live long and prosper.

Quail Fat
06-14-2005, 15:33
Originally posted by fabricator
As I thought, good luck on you quest my friend, live long and prosper.

May the force be with you ;b

jmacelree
06-14-2005, 15:58
Has anyone run side by side tests (same cal. - same loads - same brass) with a Glock, 1911, Sig, H&K, Beretta or others at max levels or above and compared the casings for expansion, over expansion, buldges, cracks or ruptures? ;)

Quail Fat
06-14-2005, 16:18
Originally posted by jmacelree
Has anyone run side by side tests (same cal. - same loads - same brass) with a Glock, 1911, Sig, H&K, Beretta or others at max levels or above and compared the casings for expansion, over expansion, buldges, cracks or ruptures? ;)

This would be a plugged bore test. As far as I know, only Ruger and H&K tested their guns with a plugged bore. The Dept. of Homeland Security had a plugged bore test, which the Sig passed.

philkryder
06-14-2005, 19:19
Some how in this discussion there is an attempt to make the "standard of comparison" HK and XD pistols.

But, rather should it not be the SAMMI spec for the ammo used?

Other brands of pistol may indeed be stronger than Glock.


And, other brands may indeed be less prone to 6 oclock failures due to tighter chambers.

But the standard is the SAMMI ammo standard.

When brass fails it:
Is either weaker than the SAMMI standard or
The pressure is higher.

If the Glock chamber fails, then it would require post failure analysis of the barrel and case to see what the pressures were.


If you shoot non-standard ammo, then guns with higher proof ratings may be a good choice for you.

Otherwise, if you shoot loads that meet SAMMI specs then what difference does it make?



Regarding, Glocks firing with un-closed chambers - please try for yourself the test I ran by shortening a 10mm case.

Until the case is short enough to allow the Glock to close, you can't close it.
However, ONCE it does close, it can close completely.
Try it.
Report back.

Phil

gary newport
06-14-2005, 19:21
Originally posted by Quail Fat
Here's a snippet for you.. (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html)

AHA! With a "reliable source" like Dean Speir, you certainly have the "facts" to support your position! ;Q

Quail Fat
06-14-2005, 20:14
Originally posted by gary newport
AHA! With a "reliable source" like Dean Speir, you certainly have the "facts" to support your position! ;Q

Yep. Sure Dean is Crusty and all, but as far as I can tell, he's not making this stuff up.:)

jupiter
06-14-2005, 20:49
I did a search of Google Groups starting Jan 1, 1985 and ending Dec. 31, 1990 and found only 59 hits for the word "Glock".
http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&num=100&q=glock&safe=off&qt_s=Search&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1985&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1990
Some were not even about Glock handguns.


I then narrowed the search for the year 1991 only and found over 400 hits.
http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&num=100&q=glock&safe=off&qt_s=Search&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1991&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1991



More people were starting to get online and I started finding some interesting threads about glocks.
This was my own attempt at getting to the bottom of all the Kaboom stories.

Quail Fat
06-14-2005, 22:24
Why chambers should not explode (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=139656)

Eddie C.
06-15-2005, 12:17
Quail Fat, with most of your knowledge of Glocks coming from Dean Speir, I guess pretty soon we could say "Yer perty neer genious!"

Walter must be losing his mind wanting to answer this thread...;g


Eddie;)

jmacelree
06-15-2005, 13:36
Originally posted by Quail Fat
This would be a plugged bore test. As far as I know, only Ruger and H&K tested their guns with a plugged bore. The Dept. of Homeland Security had a plugged bore test, which the Sig passed.

I want to take the plugged bores, bad bullets, bad seating, firing out of battery, and etc. out of the variables and deal only with high pressure or over pressure loads as they affect the casing and any resulting damage to the gun.

So much has been said about "unsupported brass chamber design" that I was hoping to find a test limited to that issue. Does it make a difference and if so, what is that point and what is the difference?

We can all conjecture, I am looking for hard test data on one aspect of design.

philkryder
06-15-2005, 22:06
Has anyone any NEW news from Portland PD.

I note that the snippet linked above is about a year old.


It would seem that they would have been able to complete any needed lab tests by now.

Anyone?

Is anyone a Portland resident?

thanks
Phil

philkryder
06-15-2005, 22:17
Originally posted by Eddie C.
Quail Fat, with most of your knowledge of Glocks coming from Dean Speir, I guess pretty soon we could say "Yer perty neer genious!"

Walter must be losing his mind wanting to answer this thread...;g


Eddie;)


Although I don't agree with some of his opinions - I am curious about this disparagement of Dean Speir.

I once challenged Walter to provide evidence of his oft stated accusations that Dean was an inveterate prevaricator.

I received what I considered to be a "null" response.

Did you ever see anything that materially disproved any facts that Mr. Speir has stated?
Could you give an example?

Thanks
Phil

Eddie C.
06-16-2005, 08:43
Originally posted by philkryder
Although I don't agree with some of his opinions - I am curious about this disparagement of Dean Speir.

I once challenged Walter to provide evidence of his oft stated accusations that Dean was an inveterate prevaricator.

I received what I considered to be a "null" response.

Did you ever see anything that materially disproved any facts that Mr. Speir has stated?
Could you give an example?

Thanks
Phil


I was sent this by a friend of ours:

Eddie,

Philkryder unknowingly answered his own question about Speir's veracity and honesty. Wonder why the info on the Portland PD hasn't been updated in a year?? Fact is, Portland PD doesn't want to admit what White Laboratories told them, which is that they had an ammo, not a Glock problem.

W.
--------------------------------------------


Hope that helps.

Eddie;f

jmacelree
06-16-2005, 08:53
Is the White Lab report public? If it was sent to a police department would that be available through a freedom of information request?

What was the problem with their ammo?

fabricator
06-16-2005, 10:53
Originally posted by Eddie C.
I was sent this by a friend of ours:

Eddie,

Philkryder unknowingly answered his own question about Speir's veracity and honesty. Wonder why the info on the Portland PD hasn't been updated in a year?? Fact is, Portland PD doesn't want to admit what White Laboratories told them, which is that they had an ammo, not a Glock problem.

W.
--------------------------------------------


Hope that helps.

Eddie;f

I wondered if our friend was going to get in on his sticky somehow;f Kind of like someone who has passed from the scene and keeps an eye on us from out there.;f

Eddie C.
06-16-2005, 16:17
Originally posted by fabricator
I wondered if our friend was going to get in on his sticky somehow;f Kind of like someone who has passed from the scene and keeps an eye on us from out there.;f





^6 ^c

philkryder
06-16-2005, 19:18
Originally posted by Eddie C.
I was sent this by a friend of ours:

Eddie,

Philkryder unknowingly answered his own question about Speir's veracity and honesty. Wonder why the info on the Portland PD hasn't been updated in a year?? Fact is, Portland PD doesn't want to admit what White Laboratories told them, which is that they had an ammo, not a Glock problem.

W.
--------------------------------------------


Hope that helps.

Eddie;f

Actually it doesn't help much.

I think "our friend" is putting the worst possible construction and interpretation on the Portland events as they relate to Speir.

This is the type of response that Walter would often provide - seemingly erudite - but orthogonal to the issue at hand.

The fact that Portland PD hasn't come forth with any new news (even an interim status report of what they are doing) is a reflection on the Portland PD - but hardly on Speir -

Or am I missing something?

A simple link to a page in error with a quote would have been a direct and straight-forward response.

I've never gotten such a simple response.

Phil

fabricator
06-16-2005, 19:33
Originally posted by philkryder
Well - I think "our friend" is putting the worst possible construction and interpretation on events.

The fact that Portland PD hasn't come forth with any new news (even an interim status report of what they are doing) is a reflection on them - but hardly on Speir -

Or am I missing something?

A simple link to a page in error is all I'm asking for.
Phil

Phil, do you actually think deano is fair and balanced in his treatment of glocks?

Eddie C.
06-16-2005, 19:39
I know that Dean has called us on Glock Talk 'Kool-Aid drinkers'. I guess that's in reference to our admiration for a pistol which we feel is reliable and well made, and Dean feels is a kabooming pile of plastic and metal. Take it from there.

Eddie C.

philkryder
06-16-2005, 20:35
Originally posted by fabricator
Phil, do you actually think deano is fair and balanced in his treatment of glocks?


No - I don't - but that's very different from chronic prevarication...(Walter word for lying)...

philkryder
06-16-2005, 20:47
Originally posted by Eddie C.
I know that Dean has called us on Glock Talk 'Kool-Aid drinkers'. I guess that's in reference to our admiration for a pistol which we feel is reliable and well made, and Dean feels is a kabooming pile of plastic and metal. Take it from there.

Eddie C.


That's it????


Don't get me wrong - I clearly beleive Glocks are safe - as is proven everyday by those of us who us them.

And, I believe that they are safe even with lead reloads and infrequent cleanings as those who see my Glock at our range often kid me about it getting cleaned every year or so.

And, I believe the "firing out of battery" rumors are just that because, I've done the test to prove to myself that if a Glock can close the receiver to the barrel, then it will be able to have the slide go up the incline and fully close.


And, I believe that Portland PD has probably NOT received lab test results confirming their original position -
or they would have produced the reports in the same public venue that they originally used to announce the "problem".

But, none of that makes Dean Speir a liar.

The koolaid drinking is obvious literary license.

And I'm still waiting and hoping for a clear reference...

Phil

Eddie C.
06-17-2005, 07:38
Originally posted by philkryder
That's it????


Don't get me wrong - I clearly beleive Glocks are safe - as is proven everyday by those of us who us them.

And, I believe that they are safe even with lead reloads and infrequent cleanings as those who see my Glock at our range often kid me about it getting cleaned every year or so.

And, I believe the "firing out of battery" rumors are just that because, I've done the test to prove to myself that if a Glock can close the receiver to the barrel, then it will be able to have the slide go up the incline and fully close.


And, I believe that Portland PD has probably NOT received lab test results confirming their original position -
or they would have produced the reports in the same public venue that they originally used to announce the "problem".

But, none of that makes Dean Speir a liar.

The koolaid drinking is obvious literary license.

And I'm still waiting and hoping for a clear reference...

Phil



Phil,
If you want references, go read Deans writings at the Gun Zone, for his views on what he thinks. I have enough work here keeping these banana's in line, without worrying who's writing what somewhere else.


Eddie C.

philkryder
06-17-2005, 08:59
Originally posted by Eddie C.
Phil,
If you want references, go read Deans writings at the Gun Zone, for his views on what he thinks. I have enough work here keeping these banana's in line, without worrying who's writing what somewhere else.


Eddie C.


Ok - sure - been there - done that.

I thought that since the disparagement was so pervasive, it would be easy for someone to point to a single specific reference.

Absent that....

Maybe someone else has a specific refernce....

fabricator
06-17-2005, 09:06
Phil, exactly what are you looking for?

philkryder
06-17-2005, 18:31
Originally posted by fabricator
Phil, exactly what are you looking for?


The ideal would be two URLs -

The first would be pointed to something Speir had written or said that was alleged to be false.

The second would be another reference showing WHY the first was false.

BrokenArrow
07-20-2005, 15:05
The obstructed bore test is pretty much a standard now and has been used for some time; most service pistols wll pass it.

The Glock, SIG, HK, and Beretta 40s have passed the obstructed bore test as done by the FBI (Glock in 97), INS/BP (Beretta/SIG in 94 and 99), and the DHS (SIG/HK in 04) for example.

So Glock 40s have passed obstructed bore tests and some have still ruptured chambers... which suggests something was very wrong w the gun and/or ammo and/or shooter at the time. Some folks could kB an M1 tank if they coud reload for it...

I was standing next to a brand new Ruger GP100 in 1989 that ruptured a chamber w a round of Federal factory 125g SJHP! Hard to find a tougher gun w more chamber support than that... I trust Glocks w factory ammo. I think they may be closer to the edge than some other guns, but not enough to make me crazy. ;)

Stuff happens. To everybody. Sooner or later. ;b

Tang419
07-22-2005, 10:25
Anyone seen this page ? http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html



Edit: Nevermind, I see there has been some issues with his before. A lot of tension between TGZ and GT.

MXRacer101
07-27-2005, 14:26
Personally, I would like to see Dean Speir and WalterGa both un-banned and given their own forum on GT to have at each other. Name the new forum KaBoom so we all can kick back and watch the fireworks.
~1

jmacelree
07-27-2005, 15:24
Originally posted by MXRacer101
Name the new forum KaBoom so we all can kick back and watch the fireworks.
~1

I think Kaboom Kaboom because of the double explosions.

Did that guy shooting the 600 nitro express pistol loose his thumb?
STUPD

BrokenArrow
The obstructed bore tests are making me feel better. Does any of the test material show serial numbers or date of manufacture of the weapon? Where would I look for that info? Many of my guns predate the dates you mentioned.

ZM01066
08-08-2005, 11:36
I am a newbie and I haven't read past the initial post on this thread. I've owned a few pistols and finally have settled on a Glock 26, which I find to be amazingly accurate, and will soon purchase a G32C. Since my friend showed me how to aim properly as well as gave me some good safety training, I've become a decent shot, which, to me, means that at this point in time I can put 50% of my shots on a paper plate at 25 yards and I am still improving. My question is what is a "KB"? And what is meant by "a KB at 6 o'clock"? Please excuse my ignorance, or, if you cannot, tell me why. Thanks.

Doug;Q

ZM01066
08-08-2005, 11:51
Never mind. Have read the thread and understand "KB" and 6 O'clock, etc. Sorry to be so quick to jump in. Thanks.

Doug ;Q

metroplex
08-29-2005, 11:53
My G17 stock barrel chamber is very loose, I can literally rock the cartridge case around. However I collect all of the spent brass cases and have not seen any unusual defects indicating overpressure or the partially supported chamber is a problem.

I think it's the folks that reload their cartridges with too much powder that have the KB's.

mobocracy
09-11-2005, 09:07
From the almost meaningless datapoints department:

I just picked up a Glock 29 yesterday. It's my first Glock and my 3rd 10mm pistol. I'm compared three different loadings in each chamber.

My conclusion is that the S&W chamber is maybe slightly tighter, with very slightly less slop with a loaded round dropped in the chamber. A spent case fired in the 1006 has almost no lateral movement to it in the 1006 chamber, when inserted into the G29 chamber there is some lateral movement possible.

Both chambers seem to have about the same amount of "missing" case support at the 6 o'clock point, although the G29 seems to have a wider unsupported taper between 3 and 6 o'clock and 6 and 9 o'clock than the S&W 1006.

It's kind of hard for me to see that these very slight differences would mean much, but I also can't help but admit that I'll be buying a KKM barrel for shooting reloads with it.

Atty_Guy
10-14-2005, 17:29
Interesting thread.

jbremount
10-17-2005, 19:30
This is a informative thread, but I think we should consider what the engineers at reputable companies that makes barrels think about the current design of barrels in this discussion of kb's.( Let's just forgot about the double or triple charge situations for a moment as that is pilot error.) Now,it appears that that the most sucessful aftermarket barrel manufactures(Barstol/KKM/Jarvis/etc/if not all) are making .40 and .45 barrels with tighter chambers and "much" more case support in the 6'oclock position, and conventional rifling. I do not think these guys lack understanding of what it takes to make a better barrel or a gun reliable. In fact, I think, they are on top of their game and are market driven to produce a better product and achieve product growth or lose profit/layoff workers/go out of business/etc/etc. If Glock gave you a choice between a barrel with a tighter chamber, more case support in the 6'oclock position, conventional rifling, or the current factory barrel, which would you choose? Sometimes one has to think outside of their own little box. Think..why are the successful guys who have lived and breathe barrel manufacturing for years or decades in a compeitive market thinking a certain way?

jmacelree
10-18-2005, 07:28
Generally, agreed. However the down side to the very tight barrel is the reliability of feeding ammo and possible dirty field conditions. For target use or if you want to shoot reloads then the after market barrel is the way to go. For business purposes, I am inclined to stick with the Glock factory barrel and high quality factory ammo.

I also believe that any weapon used for business should be individually tested with several hundred rounds of the carry ammo and function with 100% reliability before it is used in business.

mobocracy
10-18-2005, 14:37
Originally posted by jbremount
If Glock gave you a choice between a barrel with a tighter chamber, more case support in the 6'oclock position, conventional rifling, or the current factory barrel, which would you choose? Sometimes one has to think outside of their own little box. Think..why are the successful guys who have lived and breathe barrel manufacturing for years or decades in a compeitive market thinking a certain way?

My gut instinct is that the original Glock design for the Austrian military was a marvel of engineering:

Minimal weight, nearly indestructable modern materials, huge capacity and designed to be extremely reliable under the most awful of conditions, and I think the looser chamber with the wider taper was part of that reliability package.

I also think, though, that this design philosophy doesn't necessarily "fit" for weapons that aren't going to be used in a non-combat environment. I think most guns, including most LEO guns and virtually all civilian CCW guns, don't spend a couple of weeks in the mud/rain/weather or really get all that dirty, or at least not in-the-field combat dirty.

Which I think means that some of the design aspects, such as the loose chamber, need to be re-thought in terms of the way many people actually use some of the other calibers (.45, 10mm -- heavily reloaded) and perhaps in light of the pressure differences between the original cartridge, 9x19 and other cartridges for which the design has been simply resized (10mm, .40S&W, .357Sig).

philkryder
10-18-2005, 18:44
Originally posted by mobocracy
My gut instinct is that the original Glock design for the Austrian military was a marvel of engineering:

Minimal weight, nearly indestructable modern materials, huge capacity and designed to be extremely reliable under the most awful of conditions, and I think the looser chamber with the wider taper was part of that reliability package.

I also think, though, that this design philosophy doesn't necessarily "fit" for weapons that aren't going to be used in a non-combat environment. I think most guns, including most LEO guns and virtually all civilian CCW guns, don't spend a couple of weeks in the mud/rain/weather or really get all that dirty, or at least not in-the-field combat dirty.

Which I think means that some of the design aspects, such as the loose chamber, need to be re-thought in terms of the way many people actually use some of the other calibers (.45, 10mm -- heavily reloaded) and perhaps in light of the pressure differences between the original cartridge, 9x19 and other cartridges for which the design has been simply resized (10mm, .40S&W, .357Sig).


What is the "downside" of the current design that rethinking might change?

Good ammo, that is within spec works JUST FINE in millions of Glocks everyday....

9x19 at Nato levels is relatively high pressure.

As was pointed out in one of the very early posts in this thread, the "loose support" in the chamber allows BRASS failure as a "safety valve" rather than catastrophic chamber or barrel failure. It does more than just ensure reliable feeding.

The loose fit is "a good thing" (tm)... :)

mobocracy
10-18-2005, 19:51
Originally posted by philkryder
What is the "downside" of the current design that rethinking might change?

Good ammo, that is within spec works JUST FINE in millions of Glocks everyday....

9x19 at Nato levels is relatively high pressure.

As was pointed out in one of the very early posts in this thread, the "loose support" in the chamber allows BRASS failure as a "safety valve" rather than catastrophic chamber or barrel failure. It does more than just ensure reliable feeding.

The loose fit is "a good thing" (tm)... :)
Can you post some references to 9x19 NATO ammo pressure specs and how they differ from SAAMI specs for 9x19? I have heard apocryphal stories of 9x19 NATO "submachine gun" ammo, but I'm unaware of a NATO 9x19 pressure specification that exceeds 9x19 SAAMI specifications. I can find SAAMI specs for 9x19 "+P" loads, too, or is your point that NATO 9x19 is loaded to what's usually referred to as the SAAMI-recognized +P pressure spec?

As far as the idea that the loose chamber allows for a "safety valve", that would make sense if the overpressure had someplace to go and didn't blow out magazines and all the other secondary damage seen in KBs.

If fully supporting the chamber in a barrel that "needs" a pressure release as you describe results in catestrophic barrel failures, then the barrel is insufficient in some aspect of its design (wall thickness, metallurgy, etc).

jbremount
10-18-2005, 20:40
Originally posted by philkryder
What is the "downside" of the current design that rethinking might change?

Good ammo, that is within spec works JUST FINE in millions of Glocks everyday....

9x19 at Nato levels is relatively high pressure.

As was pointed out in one of the very early posts in this thread, the "loose support" in the chamber allows BRASS failure as a "safety valve" rather than catastrophic chamber or barrel failure. It does more than just ensure reliable feeding.

The loose fit is "a good thing" (tm)... :)

I have a pile of .40 brass that a friend gave me from his shooting range and almost "all" of the brass shot from a glock .40 has the bulge. My glock's factory barrel would bulge the case even with winchester value pack ammo which is not a hot round. Now, I reload and shoot factory ammo for the 38/357, the 44 and 45acp and 45 colt. One should always look at your brass and primers for signs of stress. This bulge is not a good thing! Especially with such mildly loaded ammo as the winchester white box. I have never heard of a pistol having a safety valve to self destruct such as you described. Most of the LEO and civilians that are purchasing Glock pistols do not shoot ammo that requires this overly large chamber. I have heard that glock's ammo feeding reliability is increased with the large unsupported area in the 6'oclock position. My ammo feeding so far has been 100% with a Storm Lake aftermarket barrel with much more case support and a slightly differently angled feed ramp. So the ammo feeding reasoning is just not true. That is a design problem that can be fixed. My Storm Lake aftermarket barrel has a tighter chamber and I have never had a failure to chamber issue. Never. Also,the difference in the case support is very apparent. MY aftermarket barrel never bulges the case. "Never!" I have shot 200 gr double tab ammo and the cases looked better than the winchester white box brass from a factory barrel. I have heard chatter that Glock is fixing the case support issue at the 6'oclock position on some of the newer guns. Check out the barrels on the new .357sig. I still think glock's are great guns,98% perfect! It is just their barrels in the larger calibers that need some adjustments. Then again, all good guns hang around and get improved over time. At the present,I find it easier to just buy an aftermarket barrel and be happy.

philkryder
10-19-2005, 00:31
Originally posted by jbremount
I have a pile of .40 brass that a friend gave me from his shooting range and almost "all" of the brass shot from a glock .40 has the bulge.

.... be happy.

You should do whatever you feel you need to do to "be happy."

But, I've never seen the downside of bulged brass.

If you only fire it once - as Glock recommends you use new ammo - then it is a non-issue.

If you fire reloads, then you already know the risks and should take whatever precautions you feel you need to accept responsibility for your own actions.

My point was that the design is not at fault when following the manufacturers recommendations.

Phil

philkryder
10-19-2005, 00:34
Originally posted by mobocracy
Can you post some references to 9x19 NATO ammo pressure specs and how they differ from SAAMI specs for 9x19? I have heard apocryphal stories of 9x19 NATO "submachine gun" ammo, but I'm unaware of a NATO 9x19 pressure specification that exceeds 9x19 SAAMI specifications. I can find SAAMI specs for 9x19 "+P" loads, too, or is your point that NATO 9x19 is loaded to what's usually referred to as the SAAMI-recognized +P pressure spec?

As far as the idea that the loose chamber allows for a "safety valve", that would make sense if the overpressure had someplace to go and didn't blow out magazines and all the other secondary damage seen in KBs.

If fully supporting the chamber in a barrel that "needs" a pressure release as you describe results in catestrophic barrel failures, then the barrel is insufficient in some aspect of its design (wall thickness, metallurgy, etc).

Those things such as blown out magazines are much less a problem than blown chambers.

As for Nato and plus p pressures, my point was that they are not significantly less than the other calibers 10, 40, 357, that were mentioned in the earlier post.

Phil

philkryder
10-19-2005, 19:00
Originally posted by jbremount
.... Think.

.why are the successful guys who have lived and breathe barrel manufacturing for years or decades in a compeitive market thinking a certain way?

Well, I thought for a bit and here is what I came up with.

After market barrel manufacturers sell barrels that are different than the factory barrels.

If they were the SAME, no one would buy them.
So they must make them different to attract buyers.

mobocracy
10-20-2005, 17:23
Originally posted by philkryder
Well, I thought for a bit and here is what I came up with.

After market barrel manufacturers sell barrels that are different than the factory barrels.

If they were the SAME, no one would buy them.
So they must make them different to attract buyers.

The implication is that KKM/Jarvis/Barsto/etc barrels with tighter chambers, more case support and button rifling are only like that because it makes them different than the factory barrel, and not because those specific features have meaningful benefits.

That's a ludicrous argument.

philkryder
10-20-2005, 19:57
Originally posted by mobocracy
The implication is that KKM/Jarvis/Barsto/etc barrels with tighter chambers, more case support and button rifling are only like that because it makes them different than the factory barrel, and not because those specific features have meaningful benefits.

That's a ludicrous argument.


Perhaps you think it is ludicrous -
but
?would you buy them if they were the same as factory OEM?

The secondary manufacturers must differentiate their products to have a market.

But that differentiation doesn't make them "better" or somehow "more optimal".

Search the posts to see how many of us successfully shoot many reloads - including lead - from factory barrels...


I'm sure that if Glock were to switch to tight cut or button rifled barrels from the factory, that there would arise a secondary manufacture with "loose - combat spec polygonal rifled barrels" for maximum reliabilty and velocity...

That's one of the beauties of capitalism and being free to choose.

philkryder
10-20-2005, 21:03
Originally posted by mobocracy
..., then the barrel is insufficient in some aspect of its design (wall thickness, metallurgy, etc).

Not necessarily -

The safety valve need only come into effect with ammo BEYOND spec.

mobocracy
10-20-2005, 21:33
Originally posted by philkryder
Perhaps you think it is ludicrous -
but
?would you buy them if they were the same as factory OEM?

The secondary manufacturers must differentiate their products to have a market.

But that differentiation doesn't make them "better" or somehow "more optimal".
I think the KKM barrel I have in my Glock 29 is "better" and "more optimal" than the factory barrel. It groups a hell of a lot tighter than my stock barrel and my fired cases are far less expanded than they are out of my stock barrel.

Fired cases from my S&W 1066 and 1006 have a lot of slop in my stock barrel, but have little or none in the KKM. Fired cases from my stock barrel are so expanded that they stick in my 1066 and 1006 chamber to the point of needing to knock them out with a brass rod, KKM fired cases do not.

I call this actual differentiation demonstrating a better product and not just market differentiation.
Search the posts to see how many of us successfully shoot many reloads - including lead - from factory barrels... I don't doubt that some people shoot lead reloads in their stock barrels, but most everyone I've talked to who shoots 10mm reloads considered an aftermarket barrel a requirement.
I'm sure that if Glock were to switch to tight cut or button rifled barrels from the factory, that there would arise a secondary manufacture with "loose - combat spec polygonal rifled barrels" for maximum reliabilty and velocity...
If you think that was the case, why are there no barrels advertised like this for other guns that don't ship with loose, unsupported chambers? For example, I've never seen a secondary market for Kimber barrels offering loose unsuppported chambers. Could it be it's a solution looking for a problem?

jbremount
10-21-2005, 07:18
Originally posted by philkryder
Not necessarily -

The safety valve need only come into effect with ammo BEYOND spec.


You have got to be joking with this safety valve theory!

Were did you read that in Glock's literature or "any" literature?

jbremount
10-21-2005, 07:51
Originally posted by philkryder

Search the posts to see how many of us successfully shoot many reloads - including lead - from factory barrels...

(I too have shot lead through glock factory barrels but the aftermarket barrels makers give you barrels with rifling that shoot lead bullets better.)


I'm sure that if Glock were to switch to tight cut or button rifled barrels from the factory, that there would arise a secondary manufacture with "loose - combat spec polygonal rifled barrels" for maximum reliabilty and velocity...

(If Glock were to swith, you could not "give" the current barrels away! No one manufactures loose chambered,polygonal rifeled barrels for pistols and plans to become a competive barrel manufacter in today's market.)

That's one of the beauties of capitalism and being free to choose. [/B]

(One of the beauties of capitalism and the freedom to choose is that the market dictates success, not company politics. That is why aftermarket barrels are selling. They offer a better product. I put a Clark barrel in my 1911 back in 1992 because the aftermarket barrel offers a match chamber and better lockup than the factory colt barrel. Aftermarket barrels that are better than a gun company's factory barrels are nothing new. Some gun manufacturer are giving you a decent factory barrel and some are not. That's one of the main reasons the market for aftermarket barrels is thriving.)

Babysinister
10-22-2005, 17:24
I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g

fabricator
10-22-2005, 18:20
Originally posted by Babysinister
I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g

Yes, shoot and enjoy, if you are shooting quality ammo from a place like georgia arms, or factory loaded stuff you will likely never have any kind of problem, I shoot only my reloads, no factory, more than I can keep track of, in the hundreds of thousands and have only had a couple of minor problems, this stuff is more tempest in a teacup than anything, shoot, enjoy, and forget about this thread.

Glock30fan
10-23-2005, 02:33
Originally posted by Babysinister
I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g

You are more likely to be hit by lightning while shooting the G-19 than to have it kB. And I'm not being facetious!

Babysinister
10-23-2005, 06:14
Originally posted by Glock30fan
You are more likely to be hit by lightning while shooting the G-19 than to have it kB. And I'm not being facetious!

Actually, I've been hit by secondary lightning -- in April, 1994, in West Kendall, and survived. Since then, the natives fear me. But, yes, I was not firing a G19 at the time. With Wilma coming to Miami, now I have something to look forward to. Thanks for the responses. They are most becalming.

jbremount
10-23-2005, 06:23
Originally posted by Babysinister
I'm a Glock newbie and I'm getting a headache already with the KB issue. Please, I have one question: I just purchased a NIB G19. I plan to shoot only factory-made FMJ and JHP through it, as repeatedly recommended in this threat. That is, no reloads. I bought the G19 from a respected licensed dealer at a Miami Gun Show a week ago. I haven't shot the gun yet. A lady named Wilma is blocking my access to the range this weekend, but I digress. At the gun show I also bought 200 rounds of FMJ 9mmP from a Georgia Arms distributor at the same show. The bags are marked "factory loaded," and they look it. I also plan to shoot Remington, Federal, and Winchester rounds through it. Now to my question: are these good safe rounds that the Glock is designed to shoot? Or should I squint a lot when I shoot the
gun? ;g This is my only Glock. I do not shoot 40 or 357 sig. ;g


Glocks in 9mm are ok, you will probably never have a kb.

Robert302
10-25-2005, 17:04
I'm always scared to buy those corbon .40 bullets for my Glock 27. They are loaded up to do 1900fps. I just stay away from all those high powered rounds, scared of fragging my pistol..

The strongest ammo limit for me is stuff like Federal Hydra-shock. They have 1190fps, JHP.

atmarcella
10-26-2005, 02:56
i've fired around a hundred rounds of corbon thru my g22 w/o any problems whatsoever, well......except for the wicked recoil;f

Babysinister
10-28-2005, 11:51
Originally posted by KerrtMoremin
AUL GOLCKS BLOE UHPˇˇ
Jsut assck Deen Spier. The krangcky oaled farght... >;[

After I managed to put a stop from my helpless laughter after reading this post, I think I've identified this character. Except for the 'do he's wearing, he looks just like one of the musicians who were ordered to play their string instruments to cover up the cries of pain while Tuco is getting a beating inside the command post in The Good the Bad and the Ugly. This is the guy who finally stops playing and looks pitifully at the brutal guard, who commands him to continue playing. Congrats, that was the best acting in the picture after Eli Wallach's Tuco.

It's a long thread, it may be tedious to find the post I'm quoting, it's on page 4 of the thread, towards the end, if that helps.

BGPD
11-08-2005, 08:06
Well, It just happened. I have a 22 and 23(along with a 19 that I have been using off and on for over 10 years). I decided to take the 23 and some new mags to the range yesterday along with some Ranger Win.180gr SXT and Fed.155gr HydraShok. The Fed's were purchased at a recent gun show and were a case that was open but full.
After determining the Fed's were more accurate in the 23 I starting using them exclusivley for practice. I noticed a couple rounds were hotter than the rest but just figured it was me getting tired so I continued. Several rounds into that mag it happened.

BANG! MAG DUMPED TO MY FEET, EXTRACTOR WENT FLYING SLIDE LOCKED!
I stood for a moment, looked at my hurting hands and saw all ten digits, no blood, just red marks. I was fine, no emabarassing stains on the pants either.

My gunsmith will be checking it this coming Monday.
The gun-extractor long gone, case head stripped off and gone with rest of case left in chamber. Classic 6'oclock rupture visible.
Mag-split down the right side.
The frame-all seems normal.
Barrel-all seems normal.
Slide-all seems normal.

Ammo-after re-composing myself I checked each box of the Federal 155gr HydraShok in the case, round by round. Including the unfinished box I was shooting at the time of the incident. All of the other headstamps read Federal but this one box read FC. Clearly the older rounds. The seller had found a way to get rid of them, hide them in case lots. Lesson learned!

Babysinister
11-08-2005, 08:54
Originally posted by Albert Shear
Ammo-after re-composing myself I checked each box of the Federal 155gr HydraShok in the case, round by round. Including the unfinished box I was shooting at the time of the incident. All of the other headstamps read Federal but this one box read FC. Clearly the older rounds. The seller had found a way to get rid of them, hide them in case lots. Lesson learned!

I have a few boxes of Federal Hydra Shok in 9mmP for my G19, including my carry rounds. I wasn't aware there was a problem with the older rounds. Mine are practically all FCs. Were these FC's recalled?? Would love to know!

mobocracy
11-08-2005, 12:25
Originally posted by Albert Shear
Ammo-after re-composing myself I checked each box of the Federal 155gr HydraShok in the case, round by round. Including the unfinished box I was shooting at the time of the incident. All of the other headstamps read Federal but this one box read FC. Clearly the older rounds. The seller had found a way to get rid of them, hide them in case lots. Lesson learned! [/B]

Ouch! Glad you're still in one piece, even if your gun isn't -- you can buy a new Glock, you can't buy new fingers.

I'm always dubious about gun show ammo to begin with. Sometimes it looks like old stock, sometimes new, but I always wonder how the guys at these tables can get ammo and sell it lower than some of the usual online places that seem to be low-price leaders.

I've bought some remanufactured .45ACP, but the guy selling it was locally based (he had flyers and contact info), and I'm a little less worried about .45 than other ammo.

jbremount
11-08-2005, 20:23
hello Albert, I understand your pain! A good day shooting should not end that way! You should read the preceding posts about the kb's of the .40 caliber glocks? Lots of good discussion there. I am not an expert gunsmith/engineer by no stretch of the imagination, but from my experience reloading pistol and rifle ammo, I have a hard time believing that the 6'oclock bulge in the brass shot from a glock should be acceptable. It is just plain and simply, poor barrel engineering for such a high pressure catridge like the 40. My factory barrel bulged the brass "every" time with mildly loaded Winchester white box ammo. I have a Storm Lake barrel for my glock 23, and I shoot 180-200 grain, loaded for bear stuff with no sign of case bulge at the 6 o'clock position. One can learn a lot from the empty brass their pistol or rifle ejects.

jmacelree
11-09-2005, 07:49
Glad that you are OK.

I wonder if some of the ammo was reloaded, not just old. You might want to notify Federal and Glock and preserve the evidence for their professional inspection. They might be able to check this out by an examination of the cases and disassembly of the rounds.

mobocracy
11-09-2005, 07:53
Originally posted by jbremount
hello Albert, I understand your pain! A good day shooting should not end that way! You should read the preceding posts about the kb's of the .40 caliber glocks? Lots of good discussion there. I am not an expert gunsmith/engineer by no stretch of the imagination, but from my experience reloading pistol and rifle ammo, I have a hard time believing that the 6'oclock bulge in the brass shot from a glock should be acceptable. It is just plain and simply, poor barrel engineering for such a high pressure catridge like the 40. My factory barrel bulged the brass "every" time with mildly loaded Winchester white box ammo. I have a Storm Lake barrel for my glock 23, and I shoot 180-200 grain, loaded for bear stuff with no sign of case bulge at the 6 o'clock position. One can learn a lot from the empty brass their pistol or rifle ejects.

I can only guess that the Glock engineers tested various barrel configurations and determined the amount of case head support for reliable function with new ammo that also gave them the biggest opening to feed new rounds to prevent jamming.

One gets the impression, though, that the tolerance associated with case head support favors the big opening/reliable feeding aspect vs. more case head support.

I have a KKM Precision for my G29, and given the number of aftermarker barrel vendors and the relative popularity of them among Glock owners, I'm surprised Glock hasn't offered "full support" barrels either as a model variation (G29S) or as an accessory. Maybe this would be tantamount to admitting that their barrels lack support and increase their liability -- I don't know.

jmacelree
11-09-2005, 09:23
The after market barrel and design issues have been discussed at very great length. Even after market barrels will KB if the load is too hot or defective. That is why it is important to first determine if the ammo was within specs.

If the ammo was within spec., then the agrument for design change and after market barrels is stronger.

The other lesson to be learned here is about not using any ammo with a suspect history.

Cheap ammo can be very costly - way beyond the value of the gun. What are your fingers, hand, arm or eyes worth?

mobocracy
11-09-2005, 09:29
Originally posted by jmacelree
The after market barrel and design issues have been discussed at very great length. Even after market barrels will KB if the load is too hot or defective. That is why it is important to first determine if the ammo was within specs.

If the ammo was within spec., then the agrument for design change and after market barrels is stronger.

The other lesson to be learned here is about not using any ammo with a suspect history.

Cheap ammo can be very costly - way beyond the value of the gun. What are your fingers, hand, arm or eyes worth?

I don't disagree about "cheap" ammo, but I think the important and unanswered question is about how much tolerance the stock barrels are offering should ammo vary from spec.

There's all kinds of things besides reloading or double-charging that could cause a case to fail, and pushing the case support to the outer limits of case strength tolerances just seems risky.

BGPD
11-09-2005, 09:50
Thanks all.
The Federal ammo all appeared to be new boxes,unbroken end flaps and new, unfired rounds that did not look to be reloaded. Comparing to a new box of HydraShok I just purchased they are identical.

Babysinister-FC stamped had a weakness in the web area of the case construction-a defect. Federal strengthened the case and to differentiate the the newer cases from the older they began stamping the Federal instead of FC.

As soon as I get more into the gun and install a new extractor and remove the case remnant from the chamber, my 'smith and I will go over completely. Right now it appears no other damage exists.

BGPD
11-10-2005, 05:33
I took a few pics yesterday.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/alshear/DSCN0084.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/alshear/DSCN0087.jpg

And split in mag.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/alshear/DSCN0085.jpg

jmacelree
11-10-2005, 07:36
That you need to send to Glock and Federal