A Brief Primer on KB's

[WalterGA]

The purpose of this thread isn't to be contentious relative to this frequently misunderstood subject, but rather to offer a little rational thought and a few facts. (Particularly for the newbies who might have been influenced by the Internet Ignorami)

First, whether a pistol, eg., Glock, has a supported or unsupported chamber is generally irrelevant to the subject of KB's. While an unsupported chamber might contribute to a case failure, a case failure does not constitute a KB.

So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)

In order for a case failure @ 6 o'clock to cause a KB, one would have to accept the premise that such a failure would cause dramatic increases in chamber pressure. Does anybody really believe that a RELEASE of pressure @ 6 o'clock will increase chamber pressure? Ever take h.s. physics? If not, or if you failed h.s. physics, then perhaps you should try writing for a gunrag or sponsoring a specious internet site.

Let's use an analogy for the purposes of demonstrating the silliness of blaming lack of case support for KB's. Ever fill up an air tank? Ever wonder what happens to a steam boiler or water heater when tank pressures exceed the tanks' pressure maximums? Well, if the tank has a pop-off valve or other method of releasing pressure, not much happens. With no such relief mechanism, a lot happens, catastrophically. Get the analogy with pistol chambers? If you don't, then, well, good luck with your life.

Photos of blown-up pistols on websites prove nothing, nor make any statements about the design features of that particular blown-up pistol. The picture might just reflect the statistical quality control anomaly of a factory round, or it might indicate an overcharged reload. The posting of a picture or anecdote on the internet doesn't give one any facts at all regarding KB's. (Even if the photos are of G21's blown up by police officers)

There are, I believe, over 2 million Glocks alive and well worldwide. If, as is claimed by the uninformed, Glock's design causes Glocks to randomly explode, then we'd certainly be hearing of more than just a few random cases of exploded Glocks on the internet. Nope, if design flaws were the problem, we'd be seeing tens of thousands of blown-up Glocks, government-demanded recalls, and not just the few "examples" that are posted here-and-there.

Now for my own anecdote. I've fired somewhere in the vicinity of 150,000 rounds of my reloads through my Glocks, mostly through G21's. Matt, of CGR, and others, have fired many times more of their reloads through their Glocks than I have through mine. I reload my .45ACP's until the necks split. I've never even had a 6 o'clock case failure, let alone a KB, using a factory Glock barrel.

I did experience a KB with my original G21 (see photo), using an aftermarket barrel, powder that was too fast, bullet that was too heavy, and a little of my own carelessness mixed in. Clearly had a feedramp bullet setback, with the expected KB. Please note that the case is split down its entire length. If this had been a 6 o'clock blowout, the case would only have failed @ 6 o'clock.

Glocks are among the safest pistols in use today. They are not subject to an abnormal risk of KB. If you overcharge, or, especially, doublecharge a round or use an overcharged or doublecharged factory round, your pistol, regardless of manufacturer, will probably KB.

It's as simple as that.

[fabricator]

Hey! Eddie, Fred or Mark, this really needs to be stickied.

[pwharve]

Originally posted by fabricator
Hey! Eddie, Fred or Mark, this really needs to be stickied.

I second the motion.

[G36's Rule]

Excellent post Walter. Needs to be a sticky.

[Medpilot 2]

That makes sense to me.:)

You da man, Walter!!

Third (or forth) the sticky (but you know the question will still get axed.....

[ColoradoGlocker]

.

[G-30Jet]

Yes! After ignition (primer) the overdose of powder or bullet setback creates a moment of catastrophic shock wave that does not expell the bullet from the casing fast enough to releive the vessle (case) of its pressure caused by immediate expelling of burning gasses.


The case ruptures.Shockwave continues through the frame and components until containment by the frame is diminished, and hot gasses exit through any and all frame holes either built in or newly created by shockwave.

Glock 21(in your case) flies unnaturally from fist, shooting partner says: Hey man what the **** are you tossing YOUR 21 arround for!

You double over in pain and count fingers. If you are lucky you count five and no hospital visit is needed.

The next thing you begin is the denial process, or the now I know process.:soap:

[striderglock]

Excellent post! Needs to be sticky!

[BuffaloBo]

Your own definition of a "KB" is admittedly subjective. I don't care if it's a case failure, a 6 o'clock failure, an overloaded powder charge, wrong bullet choice or whatever. I'll still consider it a "KB" or whatever you want to call it because the gun and/or components fail consequentially.

I'll agree that Glocks are no more or no less prone to "KB's" then other quality handguns, however.

Maybe we need to rename automobile collisions accordingly to suit the circumstances of their causes?

[Metric]

First, whether a pistol, eg., Glock, has a supported or unsupported chamber is generally irrelevant to the subject of KB's. While an unsupported chamber might contribute to a case failure, a case failure does not constitute a KB.

So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)

Since everyone else is demanding that this post be framed and mounted, I suppose I should say a couple of things "for the sake of argument."

The above quote looks a bit to me like defining terminology in such a way that the term "KB" becomes non-useful. Of course, the fact may remain that a particular gun (say, for example, a Glock) is very prone to "case failure" (due to a lack of chamber support inherent in the design) which involves a loud noise sounding roughly like "kabooom" and perhaps permanent damage to the gun -- yet we're not allowed to call it a "KB" because it doesn't meet Walter's definition unless the barrel has been torn apart.

Glocks are among the safest pistols in use today. They are not subject to an abnormal risk of KB. If you overcharge, or, especially, doublecharge a round or use an overcharged or doublecharged factory round, your pistol, regardless of manufacturer, will probably KB.

It's as simple as that.

Assuming we use the "blown barrel" definition of "KB" -- it does not follow that all barrels are equally likely to spit, given a particular overcharge. Glocks may be more or less prone to this particular brand of catastrophic failure -- we simply do not have any solid data to compare, here (if I am ignorant on this point, please enlighten me). All we have is a message board that seems to see more than its share of "I saw a KB at the range today" threads on a regular basis.

[WalterGA]

Excellent demonstration of non sequitur. Thanks for the contribution. ;)

[jupiter]

I have been reloading for many years.
I have NEVER had any kind of KB except with a Glock!
I've seen glocks have what I call a Kb at least 4 times.
Twice it only blew the Mag out of the bottom of the gun.
Another time it blew the Mag out and the Extractor into nowhere land.
Another time at a Match where I didn't see the total outcome of what happened.
Just because The whole thing didn't explode does not mean it didn't have a KB in my eyes.
That Extractor that went into NOWHERE land could have just as easily
come back in my face.
There are far too many stories about Glock Kbs to just write it off
and disgard anything that didn't blow the barrel and slide to hell as not being a serious problem. Glock will tell you the kbs with happen because of reloading cast bullets with the hexagonal rifling.
I had a Barsto Barrel in my 34.
The bottom line for the Average shooter is to STAY away from ANY Reloaded Ammo. Also Stay away from the AMERC Crap.



With that said, I feel if you use good ammo, you will never have a problem with a glock.
I carry my 23 every day and not because I have to.
I have Sigs, HKs, Kimbers etc,etc,etc.
I feel like the glock is just about as quick out of the holster and
able to put good shots on targets as fast as any gun every made.

[Metric]

Originally posted by WalterGA
Excellent demonstration of non sequitur. Thanks for the contribution. ;)

To reiterate my non sequitur, you have defined a "KB" in such a way that most people will never see one. That doesn't change the fact that an unusually large number of people experience catastrophic failure, due in part to unsupported chambers, and report them here on this message board.

I suppose one of us should mention "Solomon juice" at this point, right?

[pwharve]

Definitions of KB not widthstanding, I still think this thread is worth the while.

Anecdotes about what pistols a particular person has KBed or not are not all that useful in the grand scheme of 10s of millions of pistols in use world wide. Does anyone deny that other pistols will KB, or other weapons in general? I've seen two, one was mine in a T/C Benchmark--fired out of battery.

The big thing I see the anti-Glock crowd bringing up is the lack of full case support. However, in one of the examples used above, the KB occured in a BarSto barrel--I thought those were reamed to SAAMI specs or tighter. So, doesn't that remove the lack of full case support as a factor in KB? Do the BarSto barrels still lack a fully supported chamber? If so, why? I'm looking to learn here.

And, if they are KB prone, why do you people who have KBed them keep using them?

How much of this is internet megaphone? Remember the internet and the tendency for lemmingism (and I'm NOT accusing anyone here of that--I'm not questionin anyone's bona fides) brought us all of those stupid send me a card e-mails and the thought that Target is owned by France.

Where are the statistics on the numbers of KB per unit? Or, alternatively, numbers of KB lawsuits per unit. AT the rate some people suggest Glocks KB, it would seem to me that Glock would be bankrupt. What are the statistics for KB in the militaries that have them in service? Militaries being what they are, I'm sure they keep records like we do.

Same goes for the G19 issue. I don't doubt one exists. Some percentage of pistols aren't working properly, this is a shame and something Glock should be investigating. I hope the return to standard mags resolves the problem forever. But, it is a percentage, and from what I can gather from my local dealers who sell the things, its not the majority percentage--they just don't get them back with complaints. One dealer hadn't even heard there was a problem, and he sells bunches of them. Mine isn't one of the ones with a problem, so far, and yes, I've tried all sorts of JHP. We'll see what shakes out over time.

I think cultism toward anything is pretty silly, Glocks included, but of all the well documented evidence I've been able to get my hands on leads me to believe that the internet anti-Glock megaphone is working well.

--pwharve

My own experience with a G22 and my early .40 reloads - I was loading 180 FMJ over AA5 powder (I forget the charge weight now). My wife was shooting my G22, and out of the corner of my eye I saw a flash larger than normal, not coming from the muzzle, but from the middle of the pistol, right behind the breech area.

As I got to her and checked her for damage (none!), I saw that the mag & backstrap plug had been ejected, slide stop sheared off and the slide was locked up tight (had to bang it against an I beam to break it loose!).

Chamber area had cracks on both sides with the case head blown out at the 6:00 (the dreaded unsupported area) and no primer in the case. Did not get the 'classic' barrel peel, though ;f

I believe what happened was bullet set-back creating a pressure spike. At first, I though kB (actually, more like OC ;f ), but gradually moved away from that explanation and have settled on set-back.

I have long since changed my reloading habits and no longer use 180gr bullets or that fast a powder in 40. I still carry that same G22 (obviously fixed since then), and have shot many hundreds, if not thousands of my reloads through it (with an aftermarket barrel) and my G35 with factory barrel. Not as many of my reloads thru a G27 & G23 with factory barrels with no ill effects.

I firmly believe, but have no real desire to test that belief, that even with a "fully supported chamber", the same thing would have happened, though maybe not the blow-out at 6.

case head

left side

[BuffaloBo]

Steve:

How long ago did this happen?
The reason why I ask is because I noticed that the case was a Federal. I heard or read somewhere that there might have been some issues with Federal cases being a little flimsy and were prone to blowouts. Also, I heard that they quietly fixed these deficiencies since then. BTW I load Federal cases in .40 these days with no apprehension.

[philkryder]

Originally posted by WalterGA
....

So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)
....


I like this definition since it clearly separates the case failure from the barrel slide failure.

If only it had been the original definition.

I doubt it will become common usage since the colloquial definition seems to be any type of damaging explosive incident.

I think we are doomed to have KB continue to "mean" both a case failure and a barrel/slide failure.

In any event, the unsupported chamber actually becomes a "relief valve" type of safety feature since it allows a less expensive failure to occur - the case rupture - rather than a Barrel/Slide failure. In this sense it acts much like the pressure relief valve in your steam boiler analogy.

I note from your past postings that you won't own/shoot .40 s&w -
Is it possible that .40s&w in the glock (based on the earlier 9mm slide constraints) has a thinner barrel/chamber than other .40s&w and therefore may be slightly more prone to the Barrel/Slide failure you call a KB?
Or is there some other reason for objecting to the .40s&w?

Thanks for the clear and well intentioned post.
I doubt you'll change the meaning of KB, but the discussion may help clarify the issues.

Phil

[duckslayer79]

Walter, Steve....


Ya'll still got hands? ;P God that looks like that would hurt to no end.

Good article;f


Take Care
"duck"

[WalterGA]

Originally posted by philkryder
II note from your past postings that you won't own/shoot .40 s&w -
Is it possible that .40s&w in the glock (based on the earlier 9mm slide constraints) has a thinner barrel/chamber than other .40s&w and therefore may be slightly more prone to the Barrel/Slide failure you call a KB?
Or is there some other reason for objecting to the .40s&w?
Phil

I only shoot my reloads. Years ago, there was an old ordnance officer who posted on GT and, before GT, on UGW. Can't remember the guys' name, but he thought the .40 was poorly conceived and designed.

My personal believe is that shortening a case that works well (10mm) and using the same bullet weights dramatically decrease the margin for error when reloading. Also, just don't have any place in my "arsenal" for .40. I'm pretty happy with 9mm and .45ACP. I've done a lot of experimenting with .400 Cor-Bon and .40 Super, without having to change platforms.

To reiterate: If Glock's design were flawed in such a manner as to cause KB's, then we'd be hearing of tens of thousands of KB's, not the few that are posted on this and other websites. Ol' Occam even works with Glocks. ;)

duck: Thanks to Glock's design, I suffered no damage from my REAL KB. Felt like I'd hit my trigger finger with a hammer, and I was afraid to look at my hand, as I expected to see part of my finger missing. Looked at finger and it was black, then I was afraid to clean the "black" off, for fear of seeing bone, mangled flesh, etc. Didn't even have a bruise!

As I've posted in the past, I was pleasantly surprised that Glock/Smyrna took care of me, even though I was using an aftermarket barrel with reloaded ammo.

Thanks for the interest and opinions expressed in this thread. I'd bet Ol' Pepper against a DemocRAT's brain (something valuable v. something worthless) that a "certain" specious website only quotes GT'ers who are on my infamous Ignore List, when discussing KB's and GT. ;) That rates a big ol' "hardehardeharharhar!" ;)

If G21's had "design flaws", wouldn't you think that I'd have had a problem by now, having fired over 100,000 rounds of my reloads through my G21's?? Some folks, of course, are offended by rational thought and "critical thinking skills." ;)

[DannyR]

I have no problems with my 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP and .45GAP reloads fired through my Glocks.

If there are 2,000,000 Glocks and 100,000 S&W pistols chambered in .40S&W, you are likely to hear 20x more Glock problems, even though the percentage is the same.

In my experience, I have found nearly all KB's to be ammo problems, some to be shooter errors caused by ammo problems, but none that are design related problems.

If a .40 blows down the magazine due to Glock's chamber, isn't that better than blowing straight back into the shooter's face. The round is not blowing because of the chamber design, it is blowing because of excess powder/excess pressure.

The FBI tested six .40 caliber Glocks 20,000 rounds each. Do you think the FBI would have adopted Glock if there had been a KB?

AND yes, I have seen a Glock KB at at match in Conyers, GA. Brand new G33 with gun show reloads. Was it the pistol or was it the ammo? What do you think?

[Duck of Death]

My question is would the same round that KBed in a Glock 40SW barrel have done so in a more supported chamber? Due to the large chamber and lack of support over the feel ramp there is less room for error using a Glock barrel. A barrel that leaves the brass bulged as badly as a factory Glock 40SW barrel is not for me. I installed a KKM. It's reliable, accurate and no more bulged brass.

Describe the KB any way you want, I don't want it happening to me. I do not trust Glock barrels in 40SW and hot reloads. I am a competative shooter and shoot thousands of reloads a year so I'll stick with the KKM.

I have a G17 Gen 1 that has a tight chamber and good case support, nothing wrong with this barrel that I could see.

[KHAviator]

FWIW According to the Yahoo finacial profile of Glock the number of pistols is over 2.5 Million.

[Custom Glock Racing]

Well done Walter. You hit the nail on the head, particularly by differentiating case head separations.

[flatrock]

KBs and case failures are both caused by too much pressure.

The case failure can occur due to weak brass at normal pressures, but the ones people tend to be most worried about are those from over pressure.

Those usually happen because of imporperly loaded ammunition, and I suspect that most KBs are because of double loads.

Another problem is leading of the barrel. This is something Glock barrels are susceptable to. You should not fire unjackeded or at least plated bullets from a glock barrel. Lead can build up and cause overpressure.

These are issues that Glock owners should be aware of, but when using factory loaded ammo, they should not be a problem.

Those that choose to reload should use jacketed or at least plated bullets, and be aware that the less fully supported stock barrel can leave bulges in the brass, and decrease it's strength when it's resized. Reloading .40 brass that's been fired in a Glock barrel may not be a good decision, especially if you load hot loads.

[Custom Glock Racing]

Another note. Despite what some unscrupulous manufacturers will tell you there is no such thing as a fully supported barrel for a glock. They simply don't exist.

[DannyR]

Aw, Matt, you've just disclosed another secret to the masses.;)

[Custom Glock Racing]

Does this mean that I will be thrown out of the Magicians Guild Danny?

[DannyR]

No, you have a lifetime membership to the guild. However, Federal barrels may start telling folks that you be one bad dude.;f

[WIG19]

I too would vote for a sticky on this one. Also, since I do not make a habit of frequenting "specious" web sites I have no way of knowing whether the fact that Portland continues to order Glocks is common knowledge or not, just ignored, or....? Well done, sir! ^c

I always like your parallels to "Things You Should've Learned in School (had you been paying attention)" ;)

[philkryder]

Originally posted by WalterGA
....
Years ago, there was an old ordnance officer who posted on GT and, before GT, on UGW. Can't remember the guys' name, but he thought the .40 was poorly conceived and designed.


....


Regarding the argument based on anonymous appeal to authority, whether they are ill conceived or not, I think the same argument you made about Glocks in general also applies to .40s:
There are lots of them - and you will hear of failures.
If it were a real "problem" there'd be recalls.

Though I agree with your reasoning of reduced margin for error with heavier bullets, there are also many of us who shoot many rounds of .40 (including reloads) with no problems.

Any new news from Portland?
Do they really continue to use Glocks?

Phil

Originally posted by BuffaloBo
Steve:

How long ago did this happen?
The reason why I ask is because I noticed that the case was a Federal. I heard or read somewhere that there might have been some issues with Federal cases being a little flimsy and were prone to blowouts. Also, I heard that they quietly fixed these deficiencies since then. BTW I load Federal cases in .40 these days with no apprehension.

Going on 2 years now. I remember hearing the same thing about Federal (after this incident, of course!). I do my best to stick with Winchester brass now in everything I load.

[Mdsteele]

Good post Walt, Thanks!

[pwharve]

Originally posted by Custom Glock Racing
Another note. Despite what some unscrupulous manufacturers will tell you there is no such thing as a fully supported barrel for a glock. They simply don't exist.

Why is this? Feed ramp? I'm not engineer enough to figure out why on my own.

TIA.

--pwharve

[fabricator]

Originally posted by pwharve
Why is this? Feed ramp? I'm not engineer enough to figure out why on my own.

TIA.

--pwharve

Yes, because the magazine is so close to the chamber the feed ramp would be to steep, so they have to cut into the bottom of the chamber slightly, however there are many auto pistols that do this also not just glock.

[Rod b]

Good post Walter, I think the one common thread throughout all the posts is.

A huge number of Glocks in service = more KBs than less popular pistols

A lot of questions have to be raised about the quality of the ammunition used, both factory & reloads.

[petej88]

Actually, a third party barrel with more chamber support in the 6 o'clock area may induce bullet setback to a greater degree than a standard Glock barrel since the third party barrel requires a steeper feed ramp, which puts more pressure on the bullet as it hits the feed ramp. (sorry for the run on sentence, but it was kinda fun).

And I think Danny has a good point about the fact that if there are 20 times more Glocks out there than another brand, you will of course here a lot more about Glocks even if the other brand has a similar problem ratio.

[WIG19]

Sidearmor: Thanks ma'am for the sticky. ;D

[WalterGA]

Patricia: Thanks for EVERYTHING! :)

[KNOW 1]

Is this a US phenominon(how you spel?)? Can it be shown whether or not this occurs as frequently, or non-frequently in other countries? Do they reload as much? Do they use local factory ammunition? As far as the number of Glocks out there, wouldn't there be the same, about, or an equal amount of 1911's, though not all of the same manufacture? On the 1911 forum the list 13 1911 manufactures, and then have a "USGI" and "other 1911's" forums. Although I don't think it is such a problem, as much as it is exaggerated by those who do not favor Glock, I'm beggining to believe, "they do have a tendency". I've read enough posts by seemingly experienced Glock users, that are in between negative and positive, i.e. "I still use Glocks after mine Kb'd", or "I saw one Kb". This, however is not what is convincing me, it's the fact that the argument about Kb's is starting to sound like the, "1911's are 100% reliable out of the box", "just as reliable as Glock" and "it's the lower grade manufacturers that make them look bad" argument. Of course, who'd believe anything they read on the internet, anyway?

I've pile the logs, but, please, try to find it in your heart to forgive me.

[DAG27]

..

Unless you have chillin's in the house, leave it loaded and in the holster. That's what I do. Off my hip, and onto the dresser, still in its holster.

[Sgt_Steiner]

I'm not worried about Glock KB's but if I was it would be with .40's and .357 not a .45 low pressure round.

[fabricator]

Originally posted by DAG27
If you shouldn't chamber the same round more than once into your glock, how do you carry it with one chambered. Im a new glock owner, I have the 27 and am a tad concerned about it KB'in on me based on a some things I have read, but am starting to feel at ease. My routine though consists of chambering a round for the day, then at night, unloading it, and starting over in the am. If I shouldn't be doing this, what do you folks do?

^8 Where the heck did you get that cockamamy idea? If you are worried about bullet setback just check the rd against a new one from the box.;)

[DAG27]

..

[Sgt_Steiner]

Bullet setback is more of a problem with .357 than anything else.

Originally posted by fabricator
^8 Where the heck did you get that cockamamy idea? If you are worried about bullet setback just check the rd against a new one from the box.;)

[Glock-N-Fun]

To keep bullet setback in check,place a black ring around the bullet at the case mouth with a marker.

[DAG27]

..

[ColoradoGlocker]

.

[Glock-N-Fun]

CG,

Thank's,i keep forgetting that there are glockateers on this board that haven't been around firearms that long.

[mballai]

I believe the issue of Glock KBs that are not absolutely ammo related, are probably more how a gun handles high pressure. I gave up a much liked Glock 30 when the 45 KBs started surfacing. No I didn't believe it was going to KB, but guns don't always scale up the same: compare a .40 HP with the original in 9mm. I am not sure if they can beef up a polymer frame in the event you get some off spec ammo. My take is that Glocks are best in 9mm packages. If nothing else stay away from cheapo ammo.

[Ulysses]

Any firearm can fail if it gets old, is misused, wears out, used out of design, or is loaded with dangerous ammunition.

Glocks require correct handling, and ammunition which complies with the specifications.

If you push them beyond their capabilities beyond the break point you get KBs....

Just use it correctly it will serve you well.

No reason to drink kool-aid and chant... ;)

[philkryder]

Originally posted by Ulysses
Any firearm can fail if it gets old, is misused, wears out, used out of design, or is loaded with dangerous ammunition.

Glocks require correct handling, and ammunition which complies with the specifications.

If you push them beyond their capabilities beyond the break point you get KBs....

Just use it correctly it will serve you well.

No reason to drink kool-aid and chant... ;)


???

[fabricator]

Originally posted by Ulysses
Any firearm can fail if it gets old, is misused, wears out, used out of design, or is loaded with dangerous ammunition.

Glocks require correct handling, and ammunition which complies with the specifications.

If you push them beyond their capabilities beyond the break point you get KBs....

Just use it correctly it will serve you well.

No reason to drink kool-aid and chant... ;)

No reason to go all sheepleish either.

Originally posted by Ulysses
No reason to drink kool-aid and chant... ;)

mmmmmm, kool-aid mmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aid ;f

Sugar free, of course ;b

[Glock4Life]

Well done post by WGA. I'm glad they finally stickied the KB issue. Being a graduate of both H.S. and college physics, I must concur with the original poster. Oh, and I'll take my Kool-Aid with a touch of Grey Goose please.;)

[petej88]

Originally posted by sjstill
mmmmmm, kool-aid mmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aid ;f

Sugar free, of course ;b

I cannot get this catchy tune out of my head, "kool-aidmmmmmmm".;c

[BrokenArrow]

Not as good as Dean's kB FAQ, but not bad. ;)

Unsupported chambers may contribute to case failures, and case failures may contribute to kBs? Beats me. More support is better than less (until it interferes w reliability anyway) but enough is all anybody really needs. Glocks have enough for the FBI, DEA, Marshals, ISP, etc.

Good point though. Many of ruptured bbls I have seen (in Glocks, USPs, 1911s, Berettas...) did not rupture at the bottom position where the case had the least support. Many were on the sides or tops of the chamber... and lets not forget "38 Super Face" in 1911s was around long before kBs in Glocks, and 38 revolvers blew up plenty of cylinders too.

I _still_ think (but can't prove) the 40 cases were, and still are, failing more in all guns than the 9/45 ever did though. The 40 case may be closer to the edge where it gets interesting when you or the manufacturer mess up enough? AND the Glocks may be closer to the edge than some other designs too for a variety of reasons that are not "defects". So what? Live w it; plenty of good benefits that outweigh that risk (if any). ;b

[gary newport]

At my regular range, a display case hangs on the wall. Mounted in that display case are two big Smith N-frames and a bull-strong Ruger single-action. These revolvers are in very sad shape, with bowed and broken topstraps, and cylinders that are missing big chunks of steel.

An overpressure event can happen in any gun. I've never asked about these particular revolvers, but I can imagine something along the lines of "well, I was loading my usual charge of Unique, but I forgot I had Bullseye in the powder measure", or "I had a bullet stuck in the barrel so I decided just to shoot it out".

Be careful out there!

[Roundeyesamurai]

philkryder:

Any new news from Portland? Do they really continue to use Glocks?

To the best of my knowledge, yes, Glock apparently took back all of Portland Police Bureau's G21s and supplied them with G17s (G17 is what most PPB officers carry already, G21 was approved for those officers who chose to carry it instead of a G17).

[petej88]

With all due respect for the Portland City Police, it all sounds too much like a heavy handed budgeting maneuver by the City of Portland. I would not be surprised if someone got a pay raise/promotion for this ploy to standardize on one caliber at the expense of another company.

[BrokenArrow]

kaDrop! ;)

This Teutonic polymer wonder was just dropped by an Austin PD (TX) officer during an arrest scuffle and it broke into pieces! Have another of a USP that was dropped and broke like this too... ;b

[philkryder]

Originally posted by BrokenArrow
kaDrop! ;)

This Teutonic polymer wonder was just dropped and it broke into pieces! Have another of a USP that was dropped and broke like this too... ;b

how is this relevant?

[BrokenArrow]

I posted a pic, do I have to draw ya a picture too!? ;)

It's relevant in that stuff happens to _everybody_ sooner or later. A Walther P99 had a PMC case failure on a local range here and it cracked along the same lines as the one above, but held together.

Some Swiss cops had their new SIG P229s fracture slides and bounce pieces off the shooters just like some US military Beretta M9s did... Baltimore County PD broke 52 of their SIG P226s... HK USP compacts have been breaking firing pins for years... all excellent guns too.

Glocks do break. For a variety of reasons. So do other guns. You can worry/post excessively about it like they do on this forum, or just ignore/ live with it like they do on the other forums.

We don' need no stinkin' kB FAQ and/or primer no more than nobody else does! ;b

[philkryder]

Originally posted by BrokenArrow
I posted a pic, do I have to draw ya a picture too!? ;)

It's relevant in that stuff happens to _everybody_ sooner or later. A Walther P99 had a PMC case failure on a local range here and it cracked along the same lines as the one above, but held together.

Some Swiss cops had their new SIG P229s fracture slides and bounce pieces off the shooters just like some US military Beretta M9s did... Baltimore County PD broke 52 of their SIG P226s... HK USP compacts have been breaking firing pins for years... all excellent guns too.

Glocks do break. For a variety of reasons. So do other guns. You can worry/post excessively about it like they do on this forum, or just ignore/ live with it like they do on the other forums.

We don' need no stinkin' kB FAQ and/or primer no more than nobody else does! ;b

Thanks - your humor was obviously too subtle for me.
When you posted a non-Glock that had KB's and then said that it failed due to dropping, I couldn't see how it was relevant.

It's one thing for "stuff to happen" - It's quite another for someone to claim it is due to a design failure.

If you feel this thread bores you, just feel free to hold down on the alt key and press the left arrow.
Phil

[Roundeyesamurai]

petej88:

Personally, this sounds more like knee-jerk reaction than calculated ploy to standardize a particular cartridge.

A great number of police agencies standardize one cartridge for duty use, and if PPB wanted merely to do that, they could've done it simply enough by ordering officers to turn in their .45s a long time ago.

I think that the brass passed a brick when they were informed of "gun explosions" and implemented the first and (to them) most obvious reaction- replace the model that "exploded" with another model already in use, which hadn't "exploded".

"And, make it fast, the media is gonna be all over this!"

[Justin1584]

Originally posted by BrokenArrow
kaDrop! ;)

This Teutonic polymer wonder was just dropped by an Austin PD (TX) officer during an arrest scuffle and it broke into pieces! Have another of a USP that was dropped and broke like this too... ;b

NO WAY ;P Please post that USP pic.

[BrokenArrow]

No way! I think this is interesting as heck. ;)

Here's the broken USP pic. IIRC, the full size USP went into the plastic case OK after shooting. Case was dropped, when it was opened later, gun came out looking like this.

Obviously a design defect that needs attention, unless ya think these are anomalies and/or it's the only time it happened and I just happened to run across the pics?

Now who's gonna write that Walther/HK kD primer? ;b

[BigDozer66]

Originally posted by sjstill
mmmmmm, kool-aid mmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aidmmmmmm, kool-aid ;f

Sugar free, of course ;b

Sugar Free?

Man that stuff will stunt your growth!;)

Hey Kool-Aid!:cool:

BigDozer66

[JSK333]

One other question is: if the round is charged to a point higher than it is designed to handle, will it matter much in the long (or short) run how much case support it has?

I would venture: it will blow the case, regardless, because the pressure is past the point of what the case can handle (A + B = C, so Z is irrelevant).

I wonder if the difference between blowing out mags and mag releases, etc., and splitting the barrel, is due to how much bottom support the chamber has.

More support = split barrel, less support, blown out parts. Thoughts?

[Roundeyesamurai]

JSK333:

I do believe that's what WalterGA was referring to with his "pop-off valve" analogy earlier.

[shootingbuff]

Originally posted by Metric
To reiterate my non sequitur, you have defined a "KB" in such a way that most people will never see one. That doesn't change the fact that an unusually large number of people experience catastrophic failure, due in part to unsupported chambers, and report them here on this message board.

I suppose one of us should mention "Solomon juice" at this point, right?

FLASH - A KB is not a case failure. With a case failure it is something wrong with the ammo. It is a fact that a more fully supported chamber is less likely to have a case failure, but when things go boom it is better to have the case go first then to hope that the more fully supported chamber holds all that pressure.

Now for the rub. A KB is not a case failure. Just in case amy did not get that in WGA's post.

sb

[KNOW 1]

is a case failure due to a particular point on the case, which just happens to line up with the unsuported part of the barrel, or is it the entire circumference of the case and any part would fail where unsupported. If the former is true, could it fail at any point on the circumference of the case? If so, could a case failure occuring somewhere other than the unsupported part cause a Kb? If the latter is true, then I see the point, "a case failure is not a Kb."

Just don't know how case failures occur.

[quantico]

All pistols can and do occasionally fail when excessive pressure destroys the ability to stay in one piece. Glocks are in wide use and therefore have a large percentage of these failures. The failures are not of design or content failure, but of ammunition that is not in spec. Ocassionally a very lead fouled barrel will also cause a failure. I would not worry about any caliber glock that is cleaned and maintained well , and that uses quality ammunition that is new factory or reloaded by people with the skills to do so.

[cebuboy]

Originally posted by KNOW 1
is a case failure due to a particular point on the case, which just happens to line up with the unsuported part of the barrel,
Just don't know how case failures occur.

mine happened at the unsuported area, the area near the case head gave way and blew the mag out.

[glk269mm]

AAAAAH! Good old reliable WalterGA. I have not been around for a long time. Man, you ground me! BTW, I agree. Hey, what was up with that long break a few years ago?;)

[BuffaloBo]

Originally posted by glk269mm
AAAAAH! Hey, what was up with that long break a few years ago?;)

Speculation, - the state probably determined that he was a danger to himself and has since rehabilitated him.

[Regal]

delete

[gary newport]

Originally posted by Regal
;Q My 26 has only shot aprox 100 rounds and the other day after 6 rounds blew in my hand, factory federal load, the magazine blew apart, spring ect. plastic SOB flew all over, blew the slide lock lever and spring out gouging my hand pretty good. First frickkin gun that ever exploded in my hand. IMHO these guns are not very safe.

What Federal factory load were you using?

[fabricator]

Originally posted by Regal
;Q My 26 has only shot aprox 100 rounds and the other day after 6 rounds blew in my hand, factory federal load, the magazine blew apart, spring ect. plastic SOB flew all over, blew the slide lock lever and spring out gouging my hand pretty good. First frickkin gun that ever exploded in my hand. IMHO these guns are not very safe.

email federal and smyrna, I think both would like to see the gun and any left over ammo.

[Mr.GLOCK19]

i shouldn't have read this . . i always wanted a glock, i finally get one, an you guys are tellin me it might K.B . . in my hand? .. what ammo do i NOT use? . . i use hydra shocks, and there are a few I.Q's in there too.. any comments on the IQ bullets.. 65 grn? i shoot the cheap bullets at the range an keep the H.S an I.Q for self defence.. is that the right thing to do.? . . i do that with my rugerp90.. and its been fine.. but you got me worried about my glock19 now.. any comments are welcome.. ;P

[gary newport]

Originally posted by Mr.GLOCK19
i shouldn't have read this . . i always wanted a glock, i finally get one, an you guys are tellin me it might K.B . . in my hand? .. what ammo do i NOT use? . . i use hydra shocks, and there are a few I.Q's in there too.. any comments on the IQ bullets.. 65 grn? i shoot the cheap bullets at the range an keep the H.S an I.Q for self defence.. is that the right thing to do.? . . i do that with my rugerp90.. and its been fine.. but you got me worried about my glock19 now.. any comments are welcome.. ;P

WalterGA would prescribe Paxil. I'll just say STOP WORRYING! Don't shoot (naked) lead bullets. Don't shoot commercially reloaded ammo from some guy at a gun show. Don't shoot your friend's reloads. Buy Factory ammo. If you reload, do so carefully.

It is true that the big ammo factories occasionally make a mistake, but such mistakes are rare. It is also true, as Walter has pointed out, that a case failure is NOT a KB! Glocks don't blow up unless subjected to excessive pressure. ALL guns can blow up if subjected to more pressure than they were designed to handle.

At the range I go to, there is a display case behind the counter which holds two big S&W N-frames and a bull-strong Ruger Blackhawk. All had serious KB! events. It can happen to any gun.

Millions of Glocks in this country consume hundreds of millions of rounds (collectively) each year safely. I have personally fired over fifteen thousand rounds through my various Glocks, including my reloads, in the past two years. None of my Glocks has blown up.

Relax and enjoy your Glock. Shoot it often. You are the owner of one of the finest, if not THE finest, fighting pistols available. ;c

[JMag]

Nice post, Walter.

Remember that with any product sold at high volume more problems can be reported. If Glock had defects in design a logical person could expect many more reports from many sources as to such KB failures.

[gary newport]

Originally posted by Regal
;Q My 26 has only shot aprox 100 rounds and the other day after 6 rounds blew in my hand, factory federal load, the magazine blew apart, spring ect. plastic SOB flew all over, blew the slide lock lever and spring out gouging my hand pretty good. First frickkin gun that ever exploded in my hand. IMHO these guns are not very safe.

Incidentally, that sounds like a case failure, not a KB! Unless your slide and barrel were damaged, that is. Were they?

[Mr.GLOCK19]

LoL.. . i'll try not to worry .. . and i'll have to look into the paxil LOL. . thanks again . .;z

[Weaseled]

Yesterday my father and I went out shooting -- some of you may have read the thread I started.

He brought his .44mag Super Blackhawk, and we were shooting ~12 year old many times again reloaded ammo. Out of the ~60 rounds we wanted to burn thru we had three rounds split the brass/case down the side.

My question is, if a case rupture like that would have happened on one of my many GLOCK's, would it most likely end up in a major failure??

Thanks, and so far my GLOCK's have performed near flawlessly. The only problems I've had was with Fiocchi (or however it's spelled) .45ACP rounds. Out of 50, 230gr FMJ rounds I had two that didn't go off and one that failed to eject. (Stuck in chamber as if it expanded or something.)

[AME206350]

Originally posted by Mr.GLOCK19
LoL.. . i'll try not to worry .. . and i'll have to look into the paxil LOL. . thanks again . .;z

DO NOT WORRY. Although case failures happen in all makes of firearms (you just never know). Glocks are first rate pistols and for what it's worth I believe that the 9mm Glocks are usually the last Glocks to have the "kb!kb!" finger pointed at it.

I feel bad for anyone who has had a major case failure but at the same time I have nothing but the utmost confidence with my G17. These pistols have been through some of the most rugged testing and are worthy of your trust.

I know a guy who had his little Nissan hatchback blow up but I'd still take a ride in one. KB's? Forget about it. Enjoy your awesome pistol. If you look hard enough you can read someone's horror-story about almost anything.

Don't get me started on that time I almost poked my eye out with my pillow...lol

JR

[atmarcella]

is it ok to use teflon coated bullets?

[G33Man]

I guess the concern I have is with the effects of a case failure on the gun and my hand. KB or no KB...it is the end result that I am worried about. "Good news...it was the ammo not the gun. Bad news....your right hand is permanently damaged."
I have witnesses a case failure in a Sig P229 in .40.
An ugly sound with flames shooting out of strange places was heard/seen. The magazine flew out of the bottom. That was it. The gun/ammo was checked over, mags reloaded and away it went.
It should be a concern with any polymer framed pistol. Not just Glocks.
I am dying for a 15 round pistol in .357 Sig. The G31 is the only pistol to currently fill that niche.
I am hesitant to buy one.
I carry a G33 from time to time. I had a FFL friend in need who sold it to me NIB for $380. It was hard to pass up.
It never goes to the range with me. I don't want to put a lot of rounds thru it. If I bought a G31 it would be so I could put it into my shooting rotation. I shoot around 1500-2000 rounds a month so it would get a lot of rounds of Federal American Eagle 125 gr FMJ in a year.
15 rounds of .357 Sig is very, very appealing......but in the back of my head I would definitely worry.

[godawful]

somebody was bringing up quantum physics or something and how it cannot possibly relate to overpressure in the chamber of a glock resulting in a KaBoom, but that is actually not really the thing to be looking at here.
the oversize chamber at the 6 o clock position allows the brass to bulge a bit, resulting in many possible failures. one can be that once the brass has bulged it can hang in the chamber and does not allow the slide to cycle which builds pressure in the barrel. and then i guess we all know what happens next. or do we need to take a college course to tell us that if the brass can't exit the chamber, and if the bullet can't exit the barrel, then all the stuff in the middle has to go somewhere. remember that autopistols depend on blowback to function.
yes, reloaded brass can be weaker, making this possibility more probable. rarely, factory ammo can have poor brass. however you look at it, it is POSSIBLE, however unlikely.
now with all that said, i sure hope to god nobody has to suffer any kind of injury from indulging in such a wonderful sport as handgunning and reloading. good luck to all you guys who reload. i used to do it myself. i hope you don't get hurt.

[philkryder]

Originally posted by godawful
???? which builds pressure in the barrel. and then i guess we all know what happens next.....

What? How would this build anymore pressure than a fixed breech gun?

[godawful]

welp, in a blowback gun, as the primer is fired and the powder burns, the brass usually begins moving rearward a bit. then as the bullet leaves the barrel, the pressure in the barrel "blows back" to slam the casing further rearward to rack the slide.
if the casing is bulged or weak, it can crack, allowing too much pressure to escape while the bullet is still in the barrel. if too much pressure is allowed to escape before the bullet exits the barrel (in other words, the pressure can no longer propel the bullet forward) and if the blowback is not powerful enough to move the casing further back, the pressure builds to a high enough level in the barrel to cause rupture. (maybe this can also happen if a crappy primer pops out after being fired)
the hole or tear in the brass is usually not large enough to allow all the pressure that is needed to propel the bullet forward and the casing backwards. if in some case a really large tear formed in the brass and was somehow able to travel rearward enough to cycle the slide and another round, then you may end up with a bullet still lodged in the barrel. upon the next round being fired, a barrel rupture is expected.
also, if the casing bulges enough, in an extreme example, it even hits the top of the clip, not allowing the slide to cycle properly.
*whew* and i only have a basic knowledge of how this all works, i am sure there is some guy out there who can expalin blowback and everything in a really scientific way. i think i remember reading that as the bullet exits the barrel, it creates a vacuuum therein, and then the implosion (not explosion) is actually what cycles the slide. maybe i got that part wrong, but it seems like that's what i read.
can anyone explain this better?

[philkryder]

Originally posted by godawful
welp, in a blowback gun, as the primer is fired and the powder burns, the brass usually begins moving rearward a bit. then as the bullet leaves the barrel, the pressure in the barrel "blows back" to slam the casing further rearward to rack the slide.
if the casing is bulged or weak, it can crack, allowing too much pressure to escape while the bullet is still in the barrel. if too much pressure is allowed to escape before the bullet exits the barrel (in other words, the pressure can no longer propel the bullet forward) and if the blowback is not powerful enough to move the casing further back, the pressure builds to a high enough level in the barrel to cause rupture. (maybe this can also happen if a crappy primer pops out after being fired)
the hole or tear in the brass is usually not large enough to allow all the pressure that is needed to propel the bullet forward and the casing backwards. if in some case a really large tear formed in the brass and was somehow able to travel rearward enough to cycle the slide and another round, then you may end up with a bullet still lodged in the barrel. upon the next round being fired, a barrel rupture is expected.
also, if the casing bulges enough, in an extreme example, it even hits the top of the clip, not allowing the slide to cycle properly.
*whew* and i only have a basic knowledge of how this all works, i am sure there is some guy out there who can expalin blowback and everything in a really scientific way. i think i remember reading that as the bullet exits the barrel, it creates a vacuuum therein, and then the implosion (not explosion) is actually what cycles the slide. maybe i got that part wrong, but it seems like that's what i read.
can anyone explain this better?

So,...

You're saying that there is sufficient pressure to tear a hole in a case -??but not sufficent pressure to push a bullet out of the barrel??

So are you talking about a case that is weakened to start with?
Or are you saying that this happens with a perfectly good case, due to the Glock design?

Are you also saying that AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel there is pressure that moves the slide?

[godawful]

Originally posted by philkryder
So,...

You're saying that there is sufficient pressure to tear a hole in a case -??but not sufficent pressure to push a bullet out of the barrel??

So are you talking about a case that is weakened to start with?
Or are you saying that this happens with a perfectly good case, due to the Glock design?

Are you also saying that AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel there is pressure that moves the slide?

yes to number one. it is easier to tear a hole in weakened brass than it is to push the bullet out of the barrel. but what is important here is that gas begins to leak from the hole, taking away from the pressure needed to propel the bullet forward.

to number 2- the case has to be faulty or weak to begin with. the enlarged part of the chamber in glocks can allow this to happen, i had a full auto m-11 that bulged the rear of the brass also.

to number 3, yes, the shell casing begins moving when the shell is fired, but moves mostly when the bullet leaves the barrel. think about it, if the casing exited immediately upon firing, what would the pressure behind the bullet have to push against in order to propel itself forward? if you look at a profile of most autoloaders you see that the barrel tilts when the slide is cycled. if the bullet moved slower, or at the same speed of the rearward-moving casing, then the bullet would fire high every time. i don't know the difference between blowback and delayed blowback, i'll have to look into that one.

[gemeinschaft]

I have shot over 69,000 rounds in my G19 and have had no problems.

However, I have witnessed issues with .40 and .357 sig glocks.

I think if one examines the process by which these pistols were designed and marketed, you could easily see where Glock has created some problems for themselves.

I will stick with 9 or 45, the way Gaston meant for them to be.

I believe the Kb that you are trying to discuss hear would fit this description :

spiral crack on frame starting on right side of pistol leading clockwise descending the grip; most of chamber gone from the barrel; ejected magazine; slide release and magazine release gone; slide stuck on frame rails that have been bent upwards; -- THis was with factory ammo.

I was standing about 12 feet away and got hit in the eye by a piece of metal (I think part of the chamber).

Wiley X sent me a few pairs of glasses for my testimonial.

Next time you have a pair of calipers, measure the chamber support on the .40 and the 9mm barrel; then ask yourself which one has to standup to more pressure.

[KerrtMoremin]

AUL GOLCKS BLOE UHPˇˇ
Jsut assck Deen Spier. The krangcky oaled farght... >;[

[Vincent Black]

Originally posted by KerrtMoremin
AUL GOLCKS BLOE UHPˇˇ
Jsut assck Deen Spier. The krangcky oaled farght... >;[

Dude....WTF is wrong with you? I know that I shouldn't even be typing a response to your posts, but I would really like to know what your deal is. If you can't communicate in an intelligent manner, then maybe the internet isn't for you. I would suggest that you stick with legos or some other children's toy to keep yourself amused, but I wouldn't want to feel responsible for you putting them in your mouth and choking on them. ;e

[GoGoGophers]

Originally posted by godawful
...remember that autopistols depend on blowback to function.

A Glock is a recoil operated pistol.

[schapman43]

List one mechanical device that takes many high stress cycles and never fails.

[godawful]

Originally posted by GoGoGophers
A Glock is a recoil operated pistol.

looks like you are partially right. very partially...
glockfaq.com
The G-26, like most Glocks, operates on the modified Browning, locked-breack, delayed blowback system. In this system, the square top front of the chamber area mates to a cut in the top front of the ejection port in the slide. The two parts remain locked together as they move backwards in recoil, until the ramped lug on the bottom of the barrel, hits the locking block in the frame. At that point, the angle of the barrel lug engaging the locking block cams the barrel downwards, while the slide continues rearward in a staight line. The barrel soon stops, while the slide continues rearward, with the extractor, having engaged the rim of the cartridge, removing the spent case from the chamber.

In the G-28, much of this operation is the same, with one primary exception. Because the pressures of the 380ACP (9mm Kurz) are so low, there is only enough residual energy to function the action, so there can be no delay, or too much energy will be bled away to maintain reliability. In order to cancel the modified-Browning systems locking mechanism, you will see a substantial portion of the breach block on the front of the chamber-end of the barrel has been milled away. This means that the locking of the action is accomplished completely by the recoil spring and the inertia of the slide at rest. When a round is fired, the slide almost immediately starts to the rear, but there is nothing keeping the barrel locked to it, so although the barrel is also moving to the rear, it is not tied to the slide. You will also note a machined ramp on the inside rear of the slide, which mates with the ramp machined on the top front of the breach block of the barrel. This reduces resistance and allows the barrel and slide to move past each other more easily and freely, again reducing any locking force.

[WalterGA]

Has my KB thread been hijacked, or what?? :)

[Toyman]

For those who can't read very well:

Properly loaded ammunition = a round of ammo

IMProperly loaded ammunition = a small bomb

There, make sense now?

[Cat91]

Frankly, I think that the whole kB! thing is a little overblown.

I had a 9mm model 19 from the first generation that I had for four years without any problems-got it in the divorce from first hubby. I also had a third generation (FWE prefix) model 23 for about eight months this past year and fired about 700 rounds of WWBs from Wal Mart and about a hundred Cor-Bons through it without a problem. I traded it off not because it sucked, but because (1) hubby is stuck on his Steyr M9 and wanted me to go down to 9mm so we could save money at the range by sharing ammo (9mm is a good bit cheaper than .40); (2) the Glock's grip is a little fat for my small hands (had that problem with my old 19 too, to a lesser extent because of the different grip on the 1st generation gun); and (3) I hit better with the 9mm anyway.

I got a Fabrique Nationale FNP-9, one of the milspec ones made by FNMI in Columbia, SC. Last two in the serial number was 59 and the gun came off the FNMI production line in the last week of June 2004. What a piece of crap that was. It wouldn't feed from a full magazine. And it had a busted firing pin spring right out of the box-I never even got to shoot it one time!! We hustled back to the shop and talked to the owner-a great guy. He took a look at it and was like "Well, hell. Never expected that! Look, I set one aside for me and I'll let you have it instead. How about that?"

We took him up on it. The last two of the new FNP's serial is 61, it was made two guns after the other one, on the same day. Just like the first one, it had three 16 round mags and felt great in my hand. It's a lot like a SIG P-226, but polymer-framed and small enough in the grip for a woman's hand (I find the SIG a little large-gripped too). And unlike no. 59, no. 61 is a nail-driver. It feeds full mags, no problem. I even drew a smiley face on a silhouette target with it! Two hundred rounds of WWB 115 grain and a thorough cleaning later, I was a totally satisfied customer with a big smile on MY face and a new FNP-9 stoked with 17 rounds of 115 grain Cor-Bon 9mm +P (1,350 fps and 446 ft/lb energy) stashed in the gun pocket of my purse.

The moral of this story is that obviously the first FNP I had came out of the factory with a broken firing pin after the test-firing, some sort of manufacturer's defect. The second FNP is an excellent handgun indeed and one we'll be keeping a good long time, I think. I like the DA/SA setup, with the 10-pound pull on the decocked action it is safe to carry locked and loaded (again, like a SIG only thinner and a bit lighter), and I like the large capacity the 9mm provides.

Such it is with Glocks. With the HUGE numbers of Glocks out there in the world, it only stands to reason that sometimes they'll get bad steel, goof a casting, have a quality control foulup...or just get some bad ammo...and the result is the infamous kB!. It shouldn't reflect on the thousands of *good* Glocks of all calibers out there in the hands of cops, military folks, civilians all over the world. We hear more about Glock blowups in the gun world because there are so many of them. The Glock is today what the .38 snubby was when I was growing up: Everyman's gun. It's ubiquitous.

(edit) Epilogue: I missed my 23 so much I got another one. ;Q . Should have stayed with it, darnit.

Miao, Cat

[godawful]

ok a new slogan for the glocksters...
SHOOT IT TIL IT EXPLODES
ya like?

[GoGoGophers]

Originally posted by WalterGA
Has my KB thread been hijacked, or what?? :)

Yes it has (or was), unlike all the other threads here on GT, that stay exactly on-topic!

Protect your turf, Walter... fame can sometimes be but a fleeting moment, if not properly "cultivated".

PS : A Glock is a recoil operated pistol. ;)

[wetaylor58]

Walter on an earlier post you mentioned you bought a 22" barrel with chokes for your A-5 Browning. I am look for one myself could you give me some info on where to buy one.

[Washington,D.C.]

Originally posted by wetaylor58
Walter on an earlier post you mentioned you bought a 22" barrel with chokes for your A-5 Browning. I am look for one myself could you give me some info on where to buy one. I think he's away skiing.

[Jeff/1911]

I hope that's true...we miss you around here Walter!

Washington, D.C. - Nice picture! I think I'd better taking up skiing...RIGHT THERE!

Jeff/1911.

[AggieAK]

um, help me out KB? Katistrophic blowup.... how about Killer Barrel, i have no frickin clue here. maybe there should be a tab up top, like by the "donations" tab in which you can put definitions for us young bucks.. just a thought.

[Washington,D.C.]

http://thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html KB was coined by Walter's good friend, firearms journalist Dean Speir."Kb! is shorthand for "kaBOOM!"Which is the written representation of what happens when one has a catastrophic explosive event in one's Glock." Being Winter,Walter is still away skiing but sent a photo.

[Chainsaw Maniac]

That's Wally in action!

We miss ya, Wally. Hope all is well with you.

[newgunner]

Why is it that on glock furoms they always tell you to AVIOD certain bullets, but in Hk furoms or other gun furoms, they tell you what bullets you BEST to use.

The point is, glocks blow up because they use crap ammo. Any gun that uses crap ammo will blow up. But GLOCKS have a higher chance of blowing up because of it's design. AKA they are lower quality firearms

It is recommended that you should get a jarvis or other barrel that is fully supported in order for a glock to not blow up =)

[fabricator]

Originally posted by newgunner
Why is it that on glock furoms they always tell you to AVIOD certain bullets, but in Hk furoms or other gun furoms, they tell you what bullets you BEST to use.

The point is, glocks blow up because they use crap ammo. Any gun that uses crap ammo will blow up. But GLOCKS have a higher chance of blowing up because of it's design. AKA they are lower quality firearms

It is recommended that you should get a jarvis or other barrel that is fully supported in order for a glock to not blow up =)

Ummm hmmmm.;Q

[jmacelree]

I met a guy in Baltimore many years ago who had been firing a .38 and after several rounds the gun stopped working. As it turned out he had a squib round stuck in the barrel and the following slugs stacked up behind it until the last one kept the cylinder from indexing. The gunsmith had to melt the lead out of the barrel and noticed that the back strap had stretched. Lucky for the shooter he had a heavy all steel gun, the loads were light and the cylinder gap allowed the gas to escape so the gun did not KB. A lighter weight gun or heavier loads may have resulted in the gun blowing apart or serious injury.

The point is that many factors contribute to a KB and the composition and strength of the gun are among them.

[Glock4Life]

Since I've been away from the board for some time, I never got a chance to say goodbye to WGA. All the threads were locked by the time I got back. Best of everything to you man and take care.

G4L

[Shaker223]

List one mechanical device that takes many high stress cycles and never fails.

A 100,000 mile engine may have around 514,260,000 cycles on a piston

[Point_and_shoot]

Originally posted by striderglock
Excellent post! Needs to be sticky!


What the hell is a sticky????

[Washington,D.C.]

A "sticky" is a thread "stuck" at the top/beginning of a forum.

[cw2go]

I can't agree with the original post. It's not a primer. And it misses the key points.

The real problem is that you can fire many Glocks slightly out-of-battery -- especially earlier models, like mine. Combine this with the unsupported chamber in the feed ramp area, and you are left with a blackened, stinging hand, a look of shock on your face, and wondering what the hell just happened, and why your magazine became a projectile. (Fortunately only the mag.) I wasn't really injured, and my G19 survived with a new slide release, mag release, and mag, and has had another 1 - 2,000 rds though it. But it was clear from the undertone of my discussion with the nice lady at Glock that this was not an uncommon thing, even with 9s, and that they don't really think you should be shooting reloads or Federal ammo. These were the only reloads it ever shot, and it blew before I had 20 rds of reloads through it (commercial reloads, not home brew). I won't be shooting reloads, plated slugs, or Federal ever again.

And I do think Glock should be seriously faulted for failing to call its "upgrade" a "recall", which would have saved quite a few of us the aforementioned stinging hand and damaged parts replacement. A proper warning, and a note about the "upgrade" would have been appropriate. This was not responsible corporate behavior.

So I see three key issues:
1. ability to fire out of full lockup
2. excessive unsupported chamber area
3. failure to notify the customer base of the need to get the parts upgrade

Add to this a fourth item, like a lead shaving, oversize case, dirty chamber, insufficient force chambering the first round -- anything which causes incomplete lockup -- NOW you have a Kb!

Just my opinion, but one that is now obvious to me, and I'm sticking to it.

-- cw

[jmacelree]

Originally posted by cw2go
And I do think Glock should be seriously faulted for failing to call its "upgrade" a "recall", which would have saved quite a few of us the aforementioned stinging hand and damaged parts replacement. A proper warning, and a note about the "upgrade" would have been appropriate. This was not responsible corporate behavior.
-- cw

What are the details on the "Upgrade" and how does one get it?

[Washington,D.C.]

Originally posted by jmacelree
What are the details on the "Upgrade" and how does one get it? Glock has a had a few parts upgrades.At one time they were even machining 45 and 10mm slide(and maybe others)at the extractor.The parts upgrades are still there but I think they stopped the slide machining.The biggest "upgrade" that should have been a recall is most of the frames with serial numbers beginning with "E" with three letters have faulty rails.Glock will replace the frame if it is on the defective rail list or if the rails have broken.

[jmacelree]

Very helpful, thanks.

[philkryder]

Originally posted by cw2go
....

The real problem is that you can fire many Glocks slightly out-of-battery --

-- cw

how can this happen?

If the slide moves back even a little, the trigger no longer operates the striker.
This happens long before the slide to barrel "opers"...

[cw2go]

It doesn't have to be far from full lockup to make a big difference. My Glock 19 appears to be able to fire over 1/16-inch from lockup (enough for the barrel to fall noticeably, perhaps 1/32-inch or better), but it will not fire with 1/8-inch slide retraction. Hopefully, the upgrade kit will reduce this. You can test your own, retracting the slide just slightly to see at what point it you can pull the trigger and where it gets blocked. I have not installed the upgrade yet to see what the effect is, but only the old Glocks need it -- as I understand it, all those built in the last decade or so do not, and models after the 24.

Information on the upgrade kit (and which s/ns need it) can be found at: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq.html

My writeup and photos on the kB! were posted at: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19-kb.html

The Glock kB! FAQ can be found at http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html -- there is a lot of info there.

-- cw

[philkryder]

Originally posted by cw2go
It doesn't have to be far from full lockup to make a big difference. My Glock 19 appears to be able to fire over 1/16-inch from lockup (enough for the barrel to fall noticeably, perhaps 1/32-inch or better), but it will not fire with 1/8-inch slide retraction. Hopefully, the upgrade kit will reduce this. You can test your own, retracting the slide just slightly to see at what point it you can pull the trigger and where it gets blocked. I have not installed the upgrade yet to see what the effect is, but only the old Glocks need it -- as I understand it, all those built in the last decade or so do not, and models after the 24.

Information on the upgrade kit (and which s/ns need it) can be found at: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq.html

My writeup and photos on the kB! were posted at: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19-kb.html

The Glock kB! FAQ can be found at http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html -- there is a lot of info there.

-- cw


we may differ on what we mean by "lockup"
when you move the slide back by 1/16,isn't the barrel still tight against the breech?

[atmarcella]

Originally posted by Washington,D.C.
Glock has a had a few parts upgrades.At one time they were even machining 45 and 10mm slide(and maybe others)at the extractor.The parts upgrades are still there but I think they stopped the slide machining.The biggest "upgrade" that should have been a recall is most of the frames with serial numbers beginning with "E" with three letters have faulty rails.Glock will replace the frame if it is on the defective rail list or if the rails have broken.

i have EVT143, do you think i should request for a new frame from glock? thanks

[cw2go]

Originally posted by philkryder
we may differ on what we mean by "lockup"
when you move the slide back by 1/16,isn't the barrel is still tight against the breech?
By full lockup, I mean locking surfaces fully and completely engaged as required to take the full design pressure of normal firing, plus the design safety margin (which should handle significant overpressure for proof firing). At 1/16" back, it is close to lockup, but has just started disengaging (which I suspect is significant), and you can still pull the trigger, so you could conceivably get a kB! in that condition.

The most common kB! is not a failure of the barrel, slide, or frame, but a case failure in the unsupported area at the feed ramp, which is obvious if you examine a failed case or check out the pictures. (This differs from the original post here, which defines kB! in a manner contrary to that of the person who defined the term, who'se site URL I posted above.)

You can test your own pistol (AFTER confirming it is unloaded) by gently pressing back the slide and verifying where it reaches the point where you can no longer get the trigger to release. Once I get the upgrade kit installed (which includes 6 parts: a new Extractor, Spring-loaded bearing, Firing pin safety and spring, Firing pin / striker, Trigger bar) I will run the test again to see if reductes the distance above.

-- cw

[Tboh]

Could I ask a basic Q here?

What is the carry round that has the lease problems. Least chance of KB, Miss feed, FTE, SSS and anything else that'll likely run into as a CCW.

.40 and 9mm in G23 in hand and possibly a G26 or 27 shortly.

Has anyone figured it out?
Thanks,

[cw2go]

Originally posted by Tboh
Could I ask a basic Q here?

What is the carry round that has the lease problems. Least chance of KB, Miss feed, FTE, SSS and anything else that'll likely run into as a CCW.
.40 and 9mm in G23 in hand and possibly a G26 or 27 shortly.
Has anyone figured it out?
Thanks,
Least reported problems appear to be the 9mm models, which would be expected since they were designed to pass tough military acceptance trials, and they've had the longest production runs. But it has to do more with what ammo you shoot than anything else. As a CCW, I'd stick to known factory loads, and you should be fine with any caliber. And run about a case (500 rds) through it, maybe in IPSC, before you give it the thumbs up.

-- cw

[jmacelree]

Originally posted by philkryder
how can this happen?

If the slide moves back even a little, the trigger no longer operates the striker.

In a perfect world the design would not allow an "out of battery" firing. However, all mechanical devices can get out of alignment, suffer wear, malfunction, defect or failure.;g

[philkryder]

Originally posted by jmacelree
In a perfect world the design would not allow an "out of battery" firing. However, all mechanical devices can get out of alignment, suffer wear, malfunction, defect or failure.;g

Perhaps - but have you actually seen that happen?

I did a test with a 10mm case in my glock 35.

I trimmed the case little by little.

I could never get the trigger to function UNLESS the breech was tight against the barrel.

The example listed in the URL is described by the poster as a simple case failure - and was attributed by the poster due to overpressure reloads. That's not a gun failure.

[philkryder]

Originally posted by cw2go
By full lockup, I mean locking surfaces fully and completely engaged as required to take the full design pressure of normal firing, plus the design safety margin (which should handle significant overpressure for proof firing). At 1/16" back, it is close to lockup, but has just started disengaging (which I suspect is significant), and you can still pull the trigger, so you could conceivably get a kB! in that condition.

The most common kB! is not a failure of the barrel, slide, or frame, but a case failure in the unsupported area at the feed ramp, which is obvious if you examine a failed case or check out the pictures. (This differs from the original post here, which defines kB! in a manner contrary to that of the person who defined the term, who'se site URL I posted above.)

You can test your own pistol (AFTER confirming it is unloaded) by gently pressing back the slide and verifying where it reaches the point where you can no longer get the trigger to release. Once I get the upgrade kit installed (which includes 6 parts: a new Extractor, Spring-loaded bearing, Firing pin safety and spring, Firing pin / striker, Trigger bar) I will run the test again to see if reductes the distance above.

-- cw

I think that you pinpointed the key issue - though with Walter gone, I am only interpreting his post.

I am sure that as you state he intended KBs to mean only the barrel/slide failures - case failures are (under this definition not KBs, but rather ammo failures)...

Regarding the "out of battery" experiences, the high speed photos that I've seen show the bullets leaving the barrel (and I assume pressure falling to near zero) before there is any movement of the slide relative to the frame and barrel.

This is why I feel that if the breech is tight against the barrel then the slight backward downward movement that is possible is not significant.

From my reading of your URL reference, it seems thit you too attribute the failure to be due to ammo overpressure.

[jmacelree]

Originally posted by philkryder
Perhaps - but have you actually seen that happen?

I did a test with a 10mm case in my glock 35.

I trimmed the case little by little.

I could never get the trigger to function UNLESS the breech was tight against the barrel.

The example listed in the URL is described by the poster as a simple case failure - and was attributed by the poster due to overpressure reloads. That's not a gun failure. Correct for one of the URLs, but one does deal with out of battery.

Yes, I have had it happen.(non Glock). It is now "retired" because it was too old and not worth the repair cost. It sounds like your gun is working the way it was designed to work. So do my "active" guns. I really like my Glock products.:)

My point is that we need to check our equipment regularly to make sure it is in proper working order. [Like checking the brakes on your car]If your equipment is not working properly then get it fixed or retire it.

[philkryder]

Originally posted by jmacelree
.....
Yes, I have had it happen.(non Glock).
....
ok - thanks for that data point...

[cw2go]

Originally posted by philkryder
The example listed in the URL is described by the poster as a simple case failure - and was attributed by the poster due to overpressure reloads. That's not a gun failure.
First, I was the poster, so I know exactly what the writeup says, and what all the evidence looks like, since I still have it. It is possible that there was some overpressure (impossible to say for sure), but that was not likely to cause the kB! -- it was most likely a slight out-of-battery condition. This is not a "simple case failure". The case is not designed to contain that level of pressure without support. It is a combination of several elements, the most critical are the ability to fire slightly out-of-battery (i.e.- short of full lockup) combined with a partially unsupported chamber. If the pressure was high, then that may also have been a contributing factor. If I were to rewrite the linked post about the G19 kB! (since I was the orignal author), I would more clearly characterize it as a slightly out-of-battery discharge, as this is where the evidence points. It is important that owners of the earlier models understand there is an upgrade kit to avoid this condition. If you have an early model (as listed in the link), get the upgrade!!

As for the attempt of several apologists to redefine kB! as *only* an event that completely blows up the firearm is particularly inappropriate. That is NOT the definition of kB! Attempting to redefine away is an inappropriate way to address the problem, especially when it is avoidable. That's like having a doctor who tells you it isn't cancer unless it kills you, so don't worry about it. The term kB! was coined by Dean Speir, and he calls this a kB!, so I will stick with his definition, not that of some revisionist.

For those worried about the problem, read the linked acticle (above) about the upgrade kit and find out if your model needs it. Glock should have called it a recall and gotten the word out, but they didn't. Even without the upgrade, you will be okay if you avoid reloads, lead, plated slugs, and Federal cases (unless you really know what you are doing, or like taking chances). Do this and you will not have a problem. This sure beats wringing your hands and wondering if you are okay.

If you do experience a kB!, please share the detailed info so we are all kept informed, and make sure you report it to Glock and the ammo manufacturer, and one of them will take care of the parts and repairs.

-- cw

[philkryder]

Originally posted by cw2go
First, I was the poster, so I know exactly what the writeup says, and what all the evidence looks like, since I still have it.


It is possible that there was some overpressure (impossible to say for sure), but that was not likely to cause the kB! --
it was most likely a slight out-of-battery condition.



This is not a "simple case failure". The case is not designed to contain

that

level of pressure without support.




It is a combination of several elements, the most critical are the ability to fire slightly out-of-battery (i.e.- short of full lockup) combined with a partially unsupported chamber. If the pressure was high, then that may also have been a contributing factor. If I were to rewrite the linked post about the G19 kB! (since I was the orignal author), I would more clearly characterize it as a slightly out-of-battery discharge, as this is where the evidence points. It is important that owners of the earlier models understand there is an upgrade kit to avoid this condition. If you have an early model (as listed in the link), get the upgrade!!

As for the attempt of several apologists to redefine kB! as *only* an event that completely blows up the firearm is particularly inappropriate. That is NOT the definition of kB! Attempting to redefine away is an inappropriate way to address the problem, especially when it is avoidable. That's like having a doctor who tells you it isn't cancer unless it kills you, so don't worry about it. The term kB! was coined by Dean Speir, and he calls this a kB!, so I will stick with his definition, not that of some revisionist.

For those worried about the problem, read the linked acticle (above) about the upgrade kit and find out if your model needs it. Glock should have called it a recall and gotten the word out, but they didn't. Even without the upgrade, you will be okay if you avoid reloads, lead, plated slugs, and Federal cases (unless you really know what you are doing, or like taking chances). Do this and you will not have a problem. This sure beats wringing your hands and wondering if you are okay.

If you do experience a kB!, please share the detailed info so we are all kept informed, and make sure you report it to Glock and the ammo manufacturer, and one of them will take care of the parts and repairs.

-- cw

Sorry for misinterpreting what you had written -


Here is the part of your URL post that made me term it a simple case failure - I note that you use the term "classic" rather than "simple" - my apologies.
....
Examination of the Glock and case show it to be a classic case failure kB!

Here is the part that made me suspect the ammo.
....
This commercial "reload" from a local firm was one of only 17 or so reloaded rounds ever fired through this pistol and examination of the primer showed a greater-than-expected flattening effect and engraving of primer metal, with a slight extrusion into the primer pin recess....


Regarding whether the cause was out of battery or overpressure:

We know that there were signs of overpressure per your post.

We also know that other rounds in this batch showed over pressure - again per your post.

We also know that Glocks do not fully support the case - per your references and many others.

We also know from your photos that the case failure occured ONLY in the unsupported area and not all the way around the case.

What I don't know is why you go from the above data to your opinion that
"...it was most likely a slight out-of-battery condition."


I will restate my reasons for disbelief in
"out of battery experiences" -
1) Though the trigger on a glock CAN activate the striker when the barrel is pushed slightly down and back, THE BREECH IS STILL TIGHT against the barrel and bullet.
2) all high speed photos of pistol bullets, that I have seen exiting a barrel have thus far always shown the bullet exiting the barrel BEFORE the slide-barrel begins to move relative to the frame. Any contrary photo would be very welcome.


Regarding whether to use Dean Speir's definition of KB rather than Walter's

I appreciate the argument that since Dean coined the term, it should mean exactly what he meant it to mean (sort of like the Cheshire cat in Alice)...

But, I also appreciate that language evolves, and I think that Walter was attempting to draw a clarifing distinction between different types of failures.

[Vincep]

Glocks aren't the only firearms that can kaboom. My Kel tec Sub 2000 kaboomed tonight. It's that dammed 40 caliber.



http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368499

[JSOO]

Pardon my ignorance here as I am new to the technical side of shooting but just what is a KB?

[fabricator]

Originally posted by JSOO
Pardon my ignorance here as I am new to the technical side of shooting but just what is a KB?


KaaaaaaaaBooooooommmmmmm! It is when something causes a firearm to make like a hand grenade, they can but seldom do cause serious injury, much is made of it on the internet, but it is really much ado about very little.

[cw2go]

Originally posted by philkryder
Sorry for misinterpreting what you had written -
.........
Regarding whether the cause was out of battery or overpressure:
We know that there were signs of overpressure per your post.
We also know that other rounds in this batch showed over pressure - again per your post.
We also know that Glocks do not fully support the case - per your references and many others.
We also know from your photos that the case failure occured ONLY in the unsupported area and not all the way around the case.
What I don't know is why you go from the above data to your opinion that
"...it was most likely a slight out-of-battery condition."

I will restate my reasons for disbelief in
"out of battery experiences" -
1) Though the trigger on a glock CAN activate the striker when the barrel is pushed slightly down and back, THE BREECH IS STILL TIGHT against the barrel and bullet.
2) all high speed photos of pistol bullets, that I have seen exiting a barrel have thus far always shown the bullet exiting the barrel BEFORE the slide-barrel begins to move relative to the frame. Any contrary photo would be very welcome.

Regarding whether to use Dean Speir's definition of KB rather than Walter's
I appreciate the argument that since Dean coined the term, it should mean exactly what he meant it to mean (sort of like the Cheshire cat in Alice)...

But, I also appreciate that language evolves, and I think that Walter was attempting to draw a clarifing distinction between different types of failures.
Phil,
I can understand the confusion. Way back when I wrote up the original description (over 2 years ago, although there were a few recent additions/edits, it is mostly what I wrote the day it happened), I simply indicated all those items I thought might be involved. In the (considerable) intervening time, I have listened to and tested other ideas. Dean pointed out that "reading" primers was not a reliable measure of pressure. I originally balked at this, but it is a good point -- I was comparing primers of different, unknown brands. If I had reloaded the ammunition myself, and used the same brand and batch of primers (and shells, and slugs, etc.) then I would have a handle on more variables. But that is not the situation -- different primers, cases, and powders were all involved, and the primers that appeared more flattened may be softer primers. So that is just one data point in the analysis. I did not know the G19 could fire without being fully in battery, but testing shows I can move the slide a little, perhaps 3/32" (not exactly "tight against the barrel"), which I think may be enough to allow the case to set back slightly and blow out near the rim, as in the photos. Newer Glocks apparently will not do this, I'm told, and I have new parts from Glock to install to (hopefully) remedy this. Yours may not do this, but mine can.

So what do I think happened? I think it was the cheap plated slugs (which appeared to be jacketed, but I got fooled), which were slightly irregular, may have shaved off just a bit of metal into the chamber neck area and reduced my headspace. And/or the cases might have been slightly oversized. And the round let the slide close enough to discharge, but not quite enough to go to "full lockup" -- maybe 1/16th short -- and this -- possible combined with a slightly hotter charge -- allowed the slide to move back slightly more at discharge, and to blow out the side of the case in the unsupported area. It's just my theory, but I have had a long time to look at all the evidence, and I think it is the most probable cause. I may be wrong, but it has never had a problem with factory loads, and I have fired well over 1,000 rds (of white box Win 115 gr solids) in IPSC matches since then, with no changes other than replacing the damaged parts, so I have confidence in it, although I now know about and have received all the Glock "upgrade" parts, so these will go in before I do much more shooting.

The bottom line to all of this: you can parse my words, and others can come up with creative new definitions of what a kB! really is, but that's just talk. It doesn't solve anything. What is productive is if people do their homework and check to see if their Glocks need the upgrade, and get it done if they qualify. And they can check to see if theirs can discharge with the slide set back over 1/16" or so. And they should avoid lead or plated slugs, Federal ammo (at least for 9mm and .40), and reloads (unless they are *very* experienced and can control tolerances quite well). Maybe those precautions are not necessary with the new ones, and maybe not if you put on a better barrel.

I'd like to see people get the word, because Glock has not done a recall and NEVER tried to get the word out that people they need this "upgrade". I didn't know. I had NO idea this was possible (although I have seen perhaps 100 or more notices about Remington safeties and Ruger SA safety upgrades). The precise reason it happened is not certain. How to keep it from happening is pretty well known. So the productive focus is on getting the word out to other Glock owners rather than (as it happens) trying to correct people on different boards who want to reintepret what happened as being something different, or to try to redefine what a kB! as something else, or to say there is nothing to worry about -- that rubs the wrong way. (The language here is not "evolving", it is being misused, hijacking a term to exclude events which it specifically includes. And I don't need a high-speed camera to tell me it didn't stay locked up long enough, and it isn't supposed to blow pieces out in your hand and leave me feeling like I forgot to let go of a firecracker. That was some pretty powerful "contrary evidence" that it didn't stay locked up long enough.)

But the message is to pay attention and stay safe, since Glock refused to recall the affected pistols, and just isn't getting the word out. What happened, happened. If any of you guys need the "upgrade", get it (go to the web site I listed a few days ago in a prior post for details) -- and tell Glock that responsible corporations get the word out to their customers BEFORE they have a catastrophic event, not after. Let them know what you think of their policy of saving a few bucks by calling a recall situation an "upgrade" to prevent it from blow pieces out in your hand and disabling itself in the process.

-- cw

[philkryder]

CW -

First let me thank you for taking the time to explain and re-clarify.

So often these discussion degenerate into name calling and personal accusations - rather than a rational review of the facts.

I agree folks would do well to insure that their guns are well maintained and in good working order.

Also, it is both true and a good point that you have much more experience with your gun than anyone else has had.

When you pull the slide back that 1/16 of an inch doesn't the barrel just slide down the incline in the locking block?
Does it really move away from the breech?

The reason that I keep coming back to this point is that about a year ago I tried to make my G35 40 cal fire with a gap between the barrel and the breech.

I started with an empty 10mm. case.
It is the same diameter as my .40 but with a larger primer and is of course a bit longer.

I then got a Lee case trimmer.
I would put the case into the barrel and try to close the gun and get it to fire.

I could never get the barrel to even start up the ramp in the locking block - until the case was short enough to allow the slide to close completely.
Based on that experiment it just seems more likely and simpler that the pressure exceeded the case's strenght.
Especially since the failure occurred in the unsupported part of the case and not all around the case.

I dont know if you can try something similar with the 9mm.

thanks
Phil

[cw2go]

Phil - You are correct in your undertone that none of us *really* knows, we are all justa trying to figure this out, and many of us are just trying to contribute clues and assemble facts, which was what my original write-up was for.

You are approaching the slide lockup question from a different direction. I just tried moving the slide slightly to the rear (simulating a case which was not fully seated) until the trigger would no longer give me that characteristic Glock click. Yes, the barrel drops at an incline, and does not make a big gap at the breech, but I think if you are starting ANYWHERE short of full design lcokup/closure, the slide will begin moving earlier, expose slightly more case, and the unsupported area on the case then may give way. kB!

This is just my theory after spending hours with inspection lights and trying to see just how the thing could fail like that. And (based on early reports that Glocks had no problem with hot Israeli, +P, and CorBon-type ammo), and considering they must contain a proof load, the pressure theory didn't seem to be a good fit. Incomplete lockup did. That was a puzzlement until I went back to examine the ammo I bought, and found that the "jackets" were suprisingly irregular. After some discussion on another board (Battlerifles or Amback, I think), it was suggested that this was not really jacketed ammo, just plated. Bingo!! That's what it looks like -- that, or the world's most wavy, irregular jacket. I know on some firearms, like M1As, Garands, and BM59/62 types, reduced headspace can cause interesting problems that look like something else. This happens when the tiny shoulder at the chamber neck cruds up. This sounds like a possible. Others thought the casing was not properly sized, but Glocks chamber is "military" oversize. I don't think it was the chamber, I think it was the slug, where tolerences are less precise with a cast slug getting an imprecise jacket, you have the option for tiny shavings to accumulate at the neck. This prevents complete lockup of the slide (probably a bad term, since it doesn't really lock like a rotating bolt would...), which exacerbates the unsupported chamber issue. If there was higher than normal pressure, this could also have been a contributing factor.... Again, these are only theories, but I suspect it was more than one thing that led to this, as these are thoroughly tested arms, and very few -- even of this earlier generation -- have had any problems.

-- cw

[skar]

Have a g17(and love it) and would like to get a .40 or 10mm
? how are the sigs on kabooms.?

[Joe D]

They will all blow up if double charged/over charged. Bullet set back will also cause a gun to blow.

[philkryder]

Originally posted by cw2go
.....
I just tried moving the slide slightly to the rear (simulating a case which was not fully seated)
...

The tests I did - (with a case (10 mm) that could not fully seat in my .40 cal)
indicated that if the case is not fully seated, then the breech cannot close against the barrel.
And the slide cannot go up the incline.

Try it and let me know what you learn...

[Washington,D.C.]

Originally posted by WalterGA
The purpose of this thread isn't to be contentious relative to this frequently misunderstood subject, but rather to offer a little rational thought and a few facts. (Particularly for the newbies who might have been influenced by the Internet Ignorami)

First, whether a pistol, eg., Glock, has a supported or unsupported chamber is generally irrelevant to the subject of KB's. While an unsupported chamber might contribute to a case failure, a case failure does not constitute a KB.

So, what's a KB, then? Well, to me, a KB results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)

In order for a case failure @ 6 o'clock to cause a KB, one would have to accept the premise that such a failure would cause dramatic increases in chamber pressure. Does anybody really believe that a RELEASE of pressure @ 6 o'clock will increase chamber pressure? Ever take h.s. physics? If not, or if you failed h.s. physics, then perhaps you should try writing for a gunrag or sponsoring a specious internet site.

Let's use an analogy for the purposes of demonstrating the silliness of blaming lack of case support for KB's. Ever fill up an air tank? Ever wonder what happens to a steam boiler or water heater when tank pressures exceed the tanks' pressure maximums? Well, if the tank has a pop-off valve or other method of releasing pressure, not much happens. With no such relief mechanism, a lot happens, catastrophically. Get the analogy with pistol chambers? If you don't, then, well, good luck with your life.

Photos of blown-up pistols on websites prove nothing, nor make any statements about the design features of that particular blown-up pistol. The picture might just reflect the statistical quality control anomaly of a factory round, or it might indicate an overcharged reload. The po