View Full Version : Tactics when facing armed threats?
We just finished an exhaustive thread, where, in retrospect, I see that there are at least two opposing camps with regard to civillian self-defense "tactics".
One seems to be based on the rationale that all that matters is nobody gets hurt. This camp favors submitting to armed felons (rather than fighting back) in the optimistic hope that by doing so no one will be hurt.
The second is based on the less optimistic rationale, that armed felons always pose a grave mortal danger because they are armed. And by being armed, they are in fact threatening their victims with serious injury or death. Since it is impossible to know for sure that submission will insure survival, this camp favors fighting back and attempting to permanently eliminatie the threat, if possible.
Which camp are you in, and why?
:)
I fear I'm in the "fight" camp - just because I am not willing to let someone who's using the threat of force to get me in their power. ("I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees" and all that.) I've seen too many bad results from attempts to rely on the goodwill of dangerous idiots. Nie wieder, eh?
Still, I'd probably attempt to adapt my behavior to the situation. I have been able to talk my way out of a lot, though not out of everything. That might be appropriate to try. Also, I am willing to pretend to acquiesce to the demands of a thief long enough to draw on him ("Let me get my money belt out for you . . . it's in HERE!" Pow.). So, I'm not just saying that anytime some kid tries to hold me up I plan on simply jerking out a weapon and attacking . . . it really depends on the situation.
Originally posted by V Creed
We just finished an exhaustive thread, where, in retrospect, I see that there are at least two opposing camps with regard to civillian self-defense "tactics".
One seems to be based on the rationale that all that matters is nobody gets hurt. This camp favors submitting to armed felons (rather than fighting back) in the optimistic hope that by doing so no one will be hurt.
The second is based on the less optimistic rationale, that armed felons always pose a grave mortal danger, because they are armed. And by being armed, they are in fact threatening their victims with serious injury or death. Since it is impossible to know for sure that submission will insure survival, this camp favors fighting back and attempting to permanently eliminatie the threat, if possible.
Which camp are you in, and why?
I'm in the camp that doesn't absurdly mischaracterize the camps. You're in the other camp. Your total inability to understand the positions taken by your debate adversaries doesn't bode well for this new thread.
In reality:
Camp 1 -- understands that having a gun pointed at you is a risk, but risks are not all or nothing, but a matter of degree. The all-important question is the nature of the crime. The issue is ROBBERY, not "all armed felons," as you so ridiculously mischaracterize.
Knowing that crime stats show that armed robbers seldom shoot their victims, and knowing that having an already drawn gun pointing at you puts you badly behind the power curve, you have to decide which course of action increases or decreases your chances. End of story. If the robber's primary motivation was to kill you, he probably already would have.
It should be obvious that anyone in Camp 2 who advocates, as the PRIMARY defensive measure of FIRST choice, drawing and firing against an already drawn gun is hardly offering a "less optimistic rationale;" in fact he is engaging in wishful thinking and offering almost criminally stupid and bad advice.
clubsoda22
09-20-2004, 13:15
It all depends on the situation. How many people am i up against? where's the cover? How many people an i with and who? I'm trained in and practice weapon grabs and disarm techniques, so i'd feel comfortable doing that at arms legnth with a single attacker. If i'm grossly outnumbered, i'm gonna throw the wallet an run.
Originally posted by clubsoda22
It all depends on the situation.
Exactly. A shame some can't grasp that basic reality.
Weighing the situation has to start with a rational assessment of risk vs assessment of chances for success of your various options.
What is NOT rational is a) attempting a very low chance of success counter-attack against b) someone very unlikely to shoot you.
This thread and its progenitor really go to show the critical importance of mindset and what I’ll call the "Goldilocks Rule of Combat Mindset":
Too hot or too cold can both get you killed.
Call it a prediction.
People who think they can outdraw someone who has their gun pointed at them need to get some force on force training. At best it is a lose - lose situation.
This is not to say that I won't fight, just that fighting is not always the best option.
Pete.
Originally posted by tslex
I’ll call the "Goldilocks Rule of Combat Mindset":
Don't you mean "Goldiglocks"??? ;z ;f ;z
Do the above posts mean that everybody but Erich is in the submissive group so far? ;P
Questions for those who would meekly submit to armed felons:
(1) Do you normally carry a concealed handgun?
(2) If so, why? Since you don't really plan on resisting armed criminals anyway?
V Creed predictably wrote:
Do the above posts mean that everybody but Erich is in the submissive group so far?
Um sure, yes, that's what it means.
Sigh.
V Creed, a question: Does your jacket have its own filing cabinet, or are they able to fit it all in a single drawer by using microfiche and writable CD-ROMs?
Originally posted by V Creed
Questions for those who would meekly submit to armed felons:
I literally can't tell if there's a human being or a tape loop at the other end of your posts. I've seldom seen anyone so unable to receive transmission.
I agree with dgg9…it is all situational. There are far too many variables in any real life situation to even address in a shoot/don’t shoot thread. Things from lighting, our physical condition, bystanders, cover, the BG actions….anything and everything can and WILL affect the decision. Too many see what they would LIKE to do…..
Okay, so you throw yourself to the right rolling three times ending up in a perfect kneeling position immediately firing your Glock, double-tapping the BG who drops with two perfectly placed shots through the heart. His accomplices who are six in number emerge from a van, but you don’t panic! The AWB has expired, and you still have enough rounds in your new hi-cap to get the job done. In true BG fashion, they spray you with automatic Uzis but every round misses. Each in turn falls from your perfect double-taps without so much as a twitch. Useless weapons fall from dead hands. As you stand and turn away from the carnage, the van inexplicably bursts into flames, illumination the darkened alley and the bodies of the fools who dared challenge you. As you walk away, standing erect, shirt torn revealing your defined muscular (and curiously enough, oiled) torso, your girlfriend, who now bears a more than passing resemblance to Elisha Cuthbert, runs to your side giving you support (that you in no way need)….commercial break….
The above was written tongue in cheek, and certainly not meant to insult anyone, but does illustrate a particular problematic way we tend to think. When we go through these “what would you do” scenarios, we tend to be unrealistically optimistic. In them, we remain totally calm and in control of our emotions and fears; we always have our weapons accessible, and they never hang in the holster or have a failure to fire; the BG is a drug dulled cretin who has never fired his weapon and has produced one only to intimidate us, the prepared victim; our feet never slip when we turn to go to cover or to fire and when we do move to cover; we never kneel and throw our entire body weight on a piece of gravel or broken glass.
The fact is that analyzing what we could, should, or would do, in these situations is either exactly like Monday morning QB’ing, or not unlike figuring what to do when you are driving through an intersection, and look to the right to see someone has run the light, and impact is one second away. The bottom line in both is that if you have not already acted “pro-actively” by preparation and training (buying a safe car with airbags, developing the habit of always wearing a safety belt, etc), you are at the will and whim of luck, gods, or kismet or whatever you call fate, The only thing you should count on to occur, is whatever you have NOT trained, or planned for.
All the tactical knowledge in the world will not help in the least way UNLESS we have spent hours and hours preparing for the ONLY thing that really counts in these situations: fast, accurate rounds on target at ANY distance, from ANY position, one or two-handed firing. In other words, we must have the very basics of firing our weapon ingrained into our muscle memory.
Situations like building clearing, drawing against armed assailants, disarming techniques and multiple assailants are things that LE, SRT, Spec Ops, and military have the benefit of training literally hours daily for. Having taken and passed a two day or even two week FOF course, three or four years ago from any one of several master instructors does not guarantee success and can often lead you to bad decisions. If you think that walking your house with a flashlight, and finding all the “danger zones” and acting out a home invasion, makes you ready to clear your own house at two in the morning seeking an armed intruder, you are deluding yourself and preparing for disaster.
I know that as armed citizens we may be forced to do any or all of the above mentioned things and recognizing that, we should all think along tactical “what would I do lines”, and strive to prepare our skills to respond to any situation, but not to the extent that we concern ourselves with nitpicking every single move that could be made in a fictitious situation. Instead, know your capabilities. If you can’t draw from concealed and fire accurately in less than 1 second, do it in 5 seconds, but HIT EVERY TIME, FIRST TIME. When the basics of firing your weapon are so ingrained into you that your mind is focused only on the situation at hand, you are ready to concentrate on “advanced” tactics.
This far too lengthy post is just some random thoughts I have. Please don’t waste your time posting “BUT I AM A WELL TRAINED…..” “I SERVED AS A …..Or “BUT THIS HAPPENED TO ME….” or picking apart every individual sentence herein. I know there are some superbly trained shooters here and recognize their training and skills. This was intended for food for thought for Joe Average shooter not the SRT and LE pros or other master shooters. Thanks for reading, Ross
Rambosky
09-20-2004, 20:36
Or you can talk your way out of it.
The original question was very clear and easy to understand, before it was intentionally hi-jacked. It was: Which camp are you in, and why?
If you have forgotten, the camps are:
Camp #1 favors submitting to armed felons rather than fighting back, in the hope that no one will be harmed.
Camp #2 favors going on the offensive and fighting back with lethal force.
Which camp are you in, and why?
V Creed, your scenario isn't a black/white either/or situation. There are more options available than immediately going to guns.
Have you had any force on force training? Did it include a scenario where your opponent is pointing a gun at you while your gun is still in its holster? How about multiple opponents?
Pete.
Originally posted by V Creed
If you have forgotten, the camps are:
Camp #1 favors submitting to armed felons rather than fighting back, in the hope that no one will be harmed.
Camp #2 favors going on the offensive and fighting back with lethal force.
Which camp are you in, and why?
Your question is stupid. No sane, intelligent person would do either option 100% of the time, in all scenarios. The choice on a case by case basis depends on circumstances, and what you reasonably perceive the odds of survival (and other factors) to be for each of your choices. SOMETIMES draw, SOMETIMES hand to hand, SOMETIMES comply, SOMETIMES talk, SOMETIMES run.
The real choice is:
Camp #3 favors assessing the specific circumstances and making the best choice for that scenario.
This has been told to you dozens of times, but you are incapable of listening, preferring to live in your strawman world.
Demi @ CSPT
09-21-2004, 07:42
We filmed this yesterday. It should give you an idea of which camp:
http://www.demibarbito.com/weps.MPG
Demi
www.DemiBarbito.com
Originally posted by V Creed
We just finished an exhaustive thread, where, in retrospect, I see that there are at least two opposing camps with regard to civillian self-defense "tactics".
One seems to be based on the rationale that all that matters is nobody gets hurt. This camp favors submitting to armed felons (rather than fighting back) in the optimistic hope that by doing so no one will be hurt.
The second is based on the less optimistic rationale, that armed felons always pose a grave mortal danger because they are armed. And by being armed, they are in fact threatening their victims with serious injury or death. Since it is impossible to know for sure that submission will insure survival, this camp favors fighting back and attempting to permanently eliminatie the threat, if possible.
Which camp are you in, and why?
Since you participated in the thread I know that you read it, however for some reason you did not see that there were more than two "Camps". You failed to see or at least acknowledge that there were several that believed that every situation is different and that the answer is not a cut and dried answer. In fact there is no answer to the question as posed as it will depend on the situation. Resisting may be the answer or giving up the wallet may be the answer but it will depend on many factors some of which I outlined in my first post to the thread.
Originally posted by Demi @ CSPT
We filmed this yesterday. It should give you an idea of which camp:
http://www.demibarbito.com/weps.MPG
Demi
www.DemiBarbito.com
Demi,
Good video, thanks for posting it, but I have to ask. It seemed that both actors were reacting to the word "gun" from the cameraman. Was that the case or did I misinterpret that? If that is the case then would'nt both actors be reacting at the same time without a reactionary gap caused by one actor reacting to the other? If I misinterpreted what I saw then please excuse my question.
Originally posted by V Creed
We just finished an exhaustive thread, where, in retrospect, I see that there are at least two opposing camps with regard to civillian self-defense "tactics".
One seems to be based on the rationale that all that matters is nobody gets hurt. This camp favors submitting to armed felons (rather than fighting back) in the optimistic hope that by doing so no one will be hurt.
The second is based on the less optimistic rationale, that armed felons always pose a grave mortal danger because they are armed. And by being armed, they are in fact threatening their victims with serious injury or death. Since it is impossible to know for sure that submission will insure survival, this camp favors fighting back and attempting to permanently eliminatie the threat, if possible.
Which camp are you in, and why?
Each case would differ. The comment that you made that is the most incorrect is about Bush. Bush should be impeached the way that I see it!
Let me present a few pertinent quotes so those with less understanding of street reality can learn something about the principle of street survival:
"Apart from the odds that you will be killed anyway if you submit to threats of violence, it would seem---especially in today's world of permissive atrocity---that it may be your duty to resist...If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught is to fear his victim."
"The attacker must be stopped. At once and completely...Let your attacker worry about his life."
"The optimum defensive arm is the heavy-duty pistol..."
"If he has shot at us we must hit him before he can shoot again. If he is holding us by threat of force we have the edge of reaction time over him"....The perfect defense is a counter-attack that succeeds before the assailant discovers he has bitten off more than he can chew."
"...your life hangs upon your ability to block out all thoughts of your own peril, and to concentrate utterly upon the destruction of your enemy."
"The best personal defense is an explosive counter-attack."
"Any man who is a man may not, in honor, submit to threats of violence."
"...a victim who fighs back may suffer for it, but one who does not almost certainly will suffer for it. And, suffer or not, the one who fights back retains his dignity and self-respect."
Jeff Cooper, "Principles of Personal Defense"
-------------------------
In the original thread heading, the word "tactics" should have been "principles". My error. creed
Originally posted by V Creed
Let me present a few pertinent quotes so those with less understanding of street reality can learn something about street survival:
So, rather than actually engage the factual points being made here, you'll spew some irrelevant platitudes. As expected.
Originally posted by dgg9
So, rather than actually engage the factual points being made here, you'll spew some irrelevant platitudes. As expected.
You haven't made any factual points that I know of. Your posts contain mostly childish, cowardly, wimped-out rants, with no facts or substance.
Demi @ CSPT
09-21-2004, 09:08
"""the actors were reacting to the word "gun""""
Yes - for this "particular clip".
Demi
Originally posted by Gunhand
Bush should be impeached the way that I see it!
That explains everything. ;P ;Q ;P
Originally posted by V Creed
You haven't made any factual points that I know of. Your posts contain mostly childish, cowardly, wimped-out rants, with no facts or substance.
So "The choice on a case by case basis depends on circumstances, and what you reasonably perceive the odds of survival (and other factors) to be for each of your choices" is too difficult for you to grasp? Do you want to me to use smaller words, type phonetically, etc?
"Childish rants with no facts or substance" is a spot-on description of all your posts.
And everyone else in both threads saying the same thing as me -- they're all wimped-out cowards too?
Originally posted by tslex
V Creed, a question: Does your jacket have its own filing cabinet, or are they able to fit it all in a single drawer by using microfiche and writable CD-ROMs?
Not that it's pertinent to this discussion, but since you brought it up, the admin. Lt. testified in District Court that my file was the thickest in the department, contained the most letters of commendation and that I was the only officer in the history of the department (up until that time) to be presented with three "Officer of the Year" awards, one in person by the governor of the state of Florida.
And since you claim to be a lawyer, I should also point out that I never lost a felony case in court.
I started this thread because I was courious to find out if many modern day Americans had bought the "girlie-man", submissive concept of self-defense, invented about 30-40 years ago by ultra-liberals. Well...........it seems that decades of liberal indoctrination has effectively converted at least some men into passive, gutless, pansies. It now appears that my petite blonde Glock-packing wife has more "balls' than most American "men" posting here.
No wonder scum-of-the-earth gangbangers are running the cities now days!
I don't mind stating that any armed American, male or female, who would voluntarily submit to armed criminals is lower than whale s**t in my opinion.
When I worked the streets, I never knew a single cop to ever suggest submitting to armed criminals, and my city was one of the highest crime rate cities in the USA, often #1.
Geeeze, the depths to which some American males have sunk!
V Creed petulantly wrote:
And since you claim to be a lawyer,
Why, in heaven's name, would anyone "claim" to be a lawyer who was not in fact a lawyer, most especially on a board where lawyers are not objects of universal affection. I could as well say you "claim" to be a police officer, except that I don't doubt that you are (and more's the pity).
Reviewing your posts here and in the related thread, however, I see that you cannot seem to write more than a few lines without characterizing others as “wimps” or accusing them of cowardice. [You seem especially fixated on that particular term, as well as discussions about who is and is not "manly".] Valorous, honorable men seldom feel the need to trumpet their own courage or honor, nor do they expend much effort to question it in others.
As you pointed out, I’m a lawyer, not a psychologist, so I'm out of my depth when I engage in internet forum psychoanalysis. Still, I can’t help but wonder if your constant resort to those terms reveals some abiding inner crisis of confidence in your own qualities.
I can’t speak from experience, but I imagine that’s an awfully unpleasant way to live.
Rambosky
09-21-2004, 10:35
V Creed,
Well, if it will make you feel better............
"Use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction upon the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
My Mom taught me that. :cool:
Originally posted by tslex
As you pointed out, I’m a lawyer, not a psychologist, so I'm out of my depth when I engage in internet forum psychoanalysis.
I agree. ;f Give my regards to Mr. Black.
Originally posted by Rambosky
V Creed,
Well, if it will make you feel better............
"Use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction upon the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
My Mom taught me that. :cool:
You were a DC cop? What years? We may have some mutual friends. I spent several weeks up there with the DC Homicide Squad.
Originally posted by Demi @ CSPT
We filmed this yesterday. It should give you an idea of which camp:
http://www.demibarbito.com/weps.MPG
Demi
www.DemiBarbito.com
Which camp? Perhaps you can explain?
Originally posted by V Creed
Very few armed felons are up to taking out an experienced and competent armed and ready "victim" in time to keep themselves from being shot up. Especially since the victim knows he is going to draw and shoot, and the BG's don't.
Except of course when the BG already has his gun pointed at the victim.
clubsoda22
09-21-2004, 14:41
just because the bad guy has the gun pointed at you doesn't mean you lost. If it's only one guy at arms legnth i feel i have a good chance of winning. Knives on the other hand scare me.
Originally posted by clubsoda22
just because the bad guy has the gun pointed at you doesn't mean you lost. If it's only one guy at arms legnth i feel i have a good chance of winning. Knives on the other hand scare me.
And if he's not at arm's length?
More to the point: if you do escalate into shooting, you present some chance of death. You have to weigh that against your rational assessment of the chances for death the other way.
Rambosky
09-21-2004, 17:04
V Creed,
I was an officer for the Metropolitan Police Department Washington DC from 1970 to 1978.
The Cheif of Police was Jerry Wilson. My last boss was Sgt Paul Leper, who along with Officer Carl Barret and Carl Shollfer, were the officers who arrested the Watergate burglers.
I started out in uniform, then vice. I was stationed at 2nd District Hq located at 2301 L St, NW, Washington DC.
When were you there?
Originally posted by Rambosky
V Creed,
I was an officer for the Metropolitan Police Department Washington DC from 1970 to 1978.
The Cheif of Police was Jerry Wilson. My last boss was Sgt Paul Leper, who along with Officer Carl Barret and Carl Shollfer, were the officers who arrested the Watergate burglers.
I started out in uniform, then vice. I was stationed at 2nd District Hq located at 2301 L St, NW, Washington DC.
When were you there?
The case I mentioned was during that same time period. The letter of commendation I received for the arrest and successful prosecution of the murder suspect was signed by Mahlon E. Pitts, Deputy Chief of Police, Commander, Criminal Investigations Division, Metropolitan Police Department.
Best regards,
creed
Demi,
I determine the reaction-only times of shooters the following way:
With a G-19 loaded with a blank, the shooter stands with pistol in hand, finger on trigger, pointing at the target. At the beep the shooter fires one shot as quickly as he can. Average time for shooters who have NOT practiced this in advance = .25 second (1/4 second).
I consider this the absolutely fastest time that an armed criminal could possibly react to a draw and shoot by a victim. This because the criminal isn't going to be expecting the draw, like my test subjects were expecting the beep. A more likely reaction time involving an unsuspecting felon would be .50 second (1/2 second), or more.
Testing my own draw and shoot times, without any reaction time involved = .10 second (1/10 second) to .15 second).
This suggests that a fast man, with a concealed pistol in a fast draw carry holster (BladeTech, etc.), should be able to draw and shoot an armed felon at close range before the felon can react.
It's not guaranteed, of course. But the action vs reaction times should give the victim a slight advantage.
Originally posted by V Creed
Testing my own draw and shoot times, without any reaction time involved = .10 second (1/10 second) to .15 second).
I call BS on that number. 1/10 second to draw and shoot and make a hit?
Even if we stipulate your ludicrous number, you've apparently watched too much TV. The problem with your notion is that, once hit, the BG doesn't just calmly collapse. The shot BG can and probably will clench his fist with the gun in it, and cook off at least one round.
Originally posted by dgg9
I call BS on that number. 1/10 second to draw and shoot and make a hit?
.10 is my fastest time. That's why I stated .10-.15. Draw and shoot including reaction time = .30-.40 seconds.
A good friend of mine can draw and shoot a Colt .45LC single action cowboy gun, and hit a target, in quite a bit less time than that = .04-.07 seconds (not including reaction time).
Maybe you guys need some more practice?
The pistol I used for the timing was a G-19 with 3.5 trigger, shaved triggerguard and recontoured grip (simulates 1911 grip angle). Holster: BladeTech. Technique: speed rock.
Originally posted by V Creed
.10 is my fastest time. That's why I stated .10-.15. Draw and shoot including reaction time = .30-.40 seconds.
Again, I call BS. First of all, how did you time the no-reaction draw? Using what mechanism? Anyone doing the timing has to react to hit the timer. You would need some sort of mechanical device that reacts to your hand movement.
I could believe that you have some sort of unreal draw time, OR, consider all the bragging and posturing you do on this board, I could believe you're simply an over-inflated blowhard. I know what _I_ consider more credible.
And all this nonsense avoids the main issue: the BG, when shot, does not simply turn into powder and dissolve, instantly paralyzed. He'll very likely clench his firing hand reflexively and cook off at least one round.
Demi,
To more accurately time how long it takes for an armed suspect, with gun in hand, to react to the "victim's" draw & shoot, try this:
Use as a test subject an "average" person, not a trained martial artist. Tell him you are going to simulate an armed robbery and want him to assist (don't tell him he is definately going to have to shoot, or that he is being timed, only that if the "victim" tries anything, to shoot.)
Then you and the "assistant", with guns containing empty primed cases only (no bullets or powder), approach the "victim", who is similarly armed, but carrying concealed so the test subject doesn't know, and "rob" him at gunpoint. Have the "assistant" do all the talking and robbing.
The "victim", a trained, fast man with a gun, should be instructed ahead of time to pretend to cooperate until the "right moment", then draw and shoot the assistant with one shot only.
Have a timer running in the background (unknown to the assistant) so the amount of time between the "victim's" shot and the assistant's shot will be timed. You, as observer, should be able to tell who shoots first.
Let us know what happens. ;f
David Armstrong
09-22-2004, 08:56
The original question was very clear and easy to understand, before it was intentionally hi-jacked. It was: Which camp are you in, and why?
There is the problem, which you apparently are unable or unwilling to understand--the question is not clear and easy to understand, and there are more than two camps possible. When you realize those truths then you might be able to begin an understanding of the dynamics of confrontation.
Originally posted by dgg9
Again, I call BS.
Does the name Bob Munden ring any bells? ;f
What I used to do back in the old days before timers, was have another cop stand in front of me with his hands spread apart like he was going to clap his hands. He would be instructed to clap his hands together as soon as he saw me start to draw.
With an unloaded gun in my holster, I would talk to him for anywhere from a few seconds, to a minute or more, and when I thought the time was right I would draw and "shoot". Very seldom could the assistant clap his hands together before the pistol was between them.
Try it. (But triple check to make sure the gun is empty!!!)
Originally posted by V Creed
You, as an observer, should be able to tell who shoots first.
Shooting a few milliseconds first, which is unlikely enough, is not enough. The BG will still likely get at least one shot off.
If the BG has his gun out and pointed at you, finger on the trigger, you're simply kidding yourself if you think you can shoot him into oblivion so instantaneously that you can be confident in not getting hit yourself.
Originally posted by V Creed
Does the name Bob Munden ring any bells?
Sure, and you're claiming to be in the same league as him. Note that he did single action revolver draws, from a low slung holster. YOU need to draw from a belt high holster from under a concealment garment.
The fact that you claim to be in the same ballpark as a world record holder is what pegs the BS meter.
What I used to do back in the old days before timers, was have another cop stand in front of me with his hands spread apart like he was going to clap his hands. He would be instructed to clap his hands together as soon as he saw me start to draw.
With an unloaded gun in my holster, I would talk to him for anywhere from a few seconds, to a minute or more, and when I thought the time was right I would draw and "shoot". Very seldom could the assistant clap his hands together before the pistol was between them.
Now we're offering "Magnificent Seven" scenes as useful guidance?
Your example is useless. The clapping motion is not the same as someone with a gun ALREADY DRAWN, already pointed at you, finger on trigger.
Tell you what: we can do this with Airsoft guns. I'll play the BG. I predict that, whatever else happens, you take at least one round.
Originally posted by dgg9
Shooting a few milliseconds first, which is unlikely enough, is not enough. The BG will still likely get at least one shot off.
Maybe he will be physically able to get an ACCURATE shot off after taking a COM hit, maybe he won't. I've seen BG's dropped instantly, and I've seen them take good COM hits and not drop for 10-15 seconds.
But either way, I am not going to be just standing there waiting to find out. I'm going to be blocking his gun hand, or moving, as I'm shooting.
David Armstrong
09-22-2004, 09:10
With an unloaded gun in my holster, I would talk to him for anywhere from a few seconds, to a minute or more, and when I thought the time was right I would draw and "shoot". Very seldom could the assistant clap his hands together before the pistol was between them.
Unfortunately for your cause, that is a rather simple parlor trick that can be done by almost anybody with about 2 minutes of training (I recommend a Red Gun so you don't violate safety rules). And I'll back up dgg9 on the time question: How do you time a no-reaction draw? There has to be some reaction time in there someplace. I can understand splits between shots, but that is not particularly relevant to the discussion.
Originally posted by dgg9
[B]Does the name Bob Munden ring any bells?
Sure, and you're claiming to be in the same league as him.
I never claimed any such thing. What I said was that I had a friend who could draw and shoot way faster than I could, even though he was using a Colt SA 45.
The only reason I mentioned it at all, was you were insinuating that my times were impossible.
Originally posted by V Creed
The only reason I mentioned it at all, was you were insinuating that my times were impossible.
Not impossible, just extremely unlikely. Quite frankly, the alternative that you're BSing seems far more likely.
And the fact that your advice to the board requires semi-superhuman draw times AND the instantaneous collapse of the BG make it easy to dismiss as being without merit. You're banking on 99.99th percentile skill AND extreme luck in BG reaction -- pretty presumptive.
Originally posted by David Armstrong
Unfortunately for your cause, that is a rather simple parlor trick that can be done by almost anybody with about 2 minutes of training (I recommend a Red Gun so you don't violate safety rules). And I'll back up dgg9 on the time question: How do you time a no-reaction draw?
There are two ways:
(1) Fire a number of timed shots with gun in hand, finger on trigger, loaded with blanks or live ammo. On the beep fire instantly. Do it 5x after getting warmed-up, and use the average as your "reaction time". Then, using live ammo, draw and shoot on the beep. Subtract out your known average reaction time = your no-reaction time.
For example, if your average reaction time = .20 seconds, and your draw and shoot time = .30, then .10 is your no reaction time.
(2) My timer is aPocket Pro. It has an "instant" mode = timer starts when button is pushed, stops at shot.
I prefer #1, since pushing the button does distract my draw = slows me down some.
Bob has a better timer system that he built himself. With his timer you merely have your hand resting on the already depressed button, and when you move your hand to draw, the timer automatically starts = don't have to push any buttons. It's a far better system.
His timer also uses a light as the starting signal = faster than listening for a beep, and more realsitic, since visual cues (not audio cues) are what initiate your draw on the street +99% of the time.
V Creed improbably wrote:
Testing my own draw and shoot times, without any reaction time involved = .10 second (1/10 second) to .15 second).
Suuuure.
See this website for world record fast draws (http://www.fastdraw.org/wfda/) and remember that these are fast draw competition draw -- the gun is firing the split instant it clears the holster and no one's aiming.
Originally posted by tslex
Suuuure.
[/B]
Geeeze! When will you guys realize that when you want the truth, just listen to ole V Creed?
THE SIXGUNS OF BOB MUNDEN
...JOHN TAFFIN
He stands with his gun hand poised slightly above the smooth one piece ivory grips of his holstered .45 Colt Single Action. His gloved left hand is ready to slap the hammer back as the .45 is drawn, that is to say fan the hammer of the heavily modified Colt. You, having accepted the challenge to see the draw as it is made, are almost as tense as he is. Then it happens. You don't see it. All you see is the muzzle flash as the gun is fired.
Why didn't you see the draw? Certainly your eye can move faster than the human hand! Not so. It takes fifteen one hundredth's of a second to blink and Bob Munden, the Fastest Man Who Ever Lived, has just drawn and fired a Colt Single Action .45 four and three-quarter inch barreled gunfighter's favorite sixgun in less than two one hundredths of a second, .0175 seconds to be exact. You no longer doubt that this truly is the fastest man who ever lived!
------------------------
Tslex, Read Taffin's lips: Less than TWO ONE-HUNDREDTHS of a second! NOT 1/10th second. (Not .10!) But .0175!!! Maybe you don't understand what the little dot thingy means???
That's over 5x faster than my fastest ever time = .10 seconsd. And Bob can do it in .040 all day long, which is slow for him, but still almost 3x faster than my best.
David Armstrong
09-22-2004, 10:02
(1)....
Sorry, but that doesn't work right. With each instance you are prepared for the shot, and know that you will be shooting. You have not done a reaction time check at all.
(2)....
Again, no cigar. You are still including some response to stimulus, which is a reaction time factor.
The only reason I mentioned it at all, was you were insinuating that my times were impossible.
I won't insinuate they are impossible, but I will bet a whole lot of money that you can't do it regularly under simulated street conditions with a somewhat normal street-carry gun. Plus, as dgg9 points out, if you have to be a Bob Munden in order for your plan to succeed, it's not a very good plan for most people.
David Armstrong
09-22-2004, 10:07
I don't mind stating that any armed American, male or female, who would voluntarily submit to armed criminals is lower than whale s**t in my opinion.
One, it is not voluntary. I doubt anybody would volunteer to do that. There is a difference between submission and a logical, reasoned choice. When you learn the differnce maybe we can have a reasoanble conversation based on reality rather than fantasy.
mattburkett
09-22-2004, 10:08
Wow. What a bunch of crap.
"Testing my own draw and shoot times, without any reaction time involved = .10 second (1/10 second) to .15 second)."
"A good friend of mine can draw and shoot a Colt .45LC single action cowboy gun, and hit a target, in quite a bit less time than that = .04-.07 seconds (not including reaction time)."
First, I love the not including reaction time. Hmm, then there is no way to time it without high speed video equipment that I know of but then again its not like I am a professional shooter or anything.;)
Second, if you could draw even without the "reaction time" in .10 from hands at sides, I would know your name and probably have it on video. Hell I would hire you to do a video just to show it off!
Third, kind of funny to find out the Bob Munden doesn't hold any world records with the WFDA (http://www.fastdraw.org/wfda/). Sideshows are still cool though and he does a great job as an entertainer.
Have fun, I am going to work on my slow .65 Comp-tac.com holster, SVI Cross Comp in 9mm draw that won the Nationals last year. BTW that includes reaction time. It is probably only a .005 without it!
;f
Originally posted by V Creed
Geeeze! When will you guys realize that when you want the truth, just listen to ole V Creed?
LOL!
Drawing from a low slung cowboy holster at 3:00 is much easier than drawing from a belt-high holster at 4:30 or so, and from under a concealing garment. Not to mention, the cowboy competitor is not in fear of his life.
Sorry, the verdict is still: 100% BS.
And even if it were true, it would still disqualify it from serious consideration since no combat technique that requires way, way, WAY above average skill or speed should be counted on.
Originally posted by David Armstrong
I won't insinuate they are impossible, but I will bet a whole lot of money that you can't do it regularly under simulated street conditions with a somewhat normal street-carry gun. Plus, as dgg9 points out, if you have to be a Bob Munden in order for your plan to succeed, it's not a very good plan for most people.
I never said this was a street time. This is obviously not my "street" time, but since the BG's reaction time is going to be 1/2 second, or more, I don't have to do it in .30 of a second. A .45 second draw and shoot is plenty fast enough on the street. And I can do that just fine, as long as I'm carrying the right pistol in the right holster.
Now.......if all I'm carrying is my pocket pistol naked in a tight jeans pocket, that's a different story. ;f In that case, I'll have to rely more on a subterfuge-draw, than just a fast draw.
Originally posted by V Creed
I never said this was a street time. This is obviously not my "street" time, but since the BG's reaction time is going to be 1/2 second, or more, I don't have to do it in .30 of a second. A .450 second draw and shoot is plenty fast enough on the street. And I can do that as long as I'm carring the right pistol in the right holster.
Sorry, the BS meter is pegged at 100. You can claim this all day but I doubt anyone will believe this nonsense.
Originally posted by mattburkett
Wow. What a bunch of crap.
First, I love the not including reaction time. Hmm, then there is no way to time it without high speed video equipment that I know of but then again its not like I am a professional shooter or anything.;)
Second, if you could draw even without the "reaction time" in .10 from hands at sides, I would know your name and probably have it on video. Hell I would hire you to do a video just to show it off!
Matt,
When you draw against an armed robber, there isn't any reaction time for you, only for him. Why? Because you start the draw any time you want, and he has to react (reaction time delay) and play catch-up.
If you can't do a .30 draw and shoot, including reaction time, better not claim to be a "fastdraw" pro. I was able to get into the .30 to .40 second bracket after only a week's practice.
.30 isn't all that fast, for pros. And your claimed .65 is so slow, it's about what my draw and shoot time was BEFORE I started practicing.
By the way, I know what Bob Munden can do, because I've seen him do it many times. And he's 63 years old.
What I would suggest is those of you with timers start practicing at home with just primed cases (so you don't shoot yourselves). You'll soon be able figure out which techniques are fastest and what equipment works best. You'll also quickly be able to get into the .30-.40 bracket = a week or two.
I tried all kinds of guns, and found that the G-19 works best, with a 3.5 trigger and shaved trigger-guard. The technique I use is a "speed rock" where the pistol fires immedaitely after leaving the holster and with barrel tilted up towards the target. At belly-to-belly self-defense ranges it works fine.
But beware, you will experience muzzle blast "slap" on your side when using live ammo, and could possibly shoot/injure yourself. So.....I recommend not using live ammo for practice. Wax/rubber bullet loads are supposed to work fine.
Bob gave me hell when he found out I was doing it with live ammo, so I'm passing the warning along.
Originally posted by V Creed
If you can't do a .30 draw and shoot, including reaction time, better not claim to be a pro shooter. I was able to get into the .30 to .40 second bracket after only a week's practice.
Well thanks for making it all so clear:
1. Vig Creed (after 1 week of practice) is a significantly faster shooter than Matt Burkett, and therefore:
2. Anyone attempting the VC method of street defense also needs to be a significantly faster shooter than Matt Burkett as a pre-requisite for success. Although possibly the "twice as fast as Matt Burkett" level that VC possesses is not necessary.
Originally posted by V Creed
Matt,
When you draw against an armed robber, there isn't any reaction time for you, only for him. Why? Because you start the draw any time you want, and he has to react and play catch-up.
If you can't do a .30 draw and shoot, including reaction time, better not claim to be a pro shooter. I was able to get into the .30 to .40 second bracket after only a week's practice. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the little dot thingy and the numbers following it, either?
.30 isn't all that fast. And your claimed .65 is so slow, it's about what my draw and shoot time was BEFORE I started practicing.
You either need more practice, or more math lessons.
By the way, I know what 63 year old Bob Munden can do, because I've seen him do it many times.
[list=1]
the robber can still pull the trigger faster than you can draw.
you are making the assumption that he will hesitate or doesn't know what he is doing.
much like the past thread of USMC guy drawing and hitting a target in 1.5 seconds from a flap holster ..Bull ****
Bob Munden is the last example I would use to give credit to your position.
[/list=1]
If you are drawing in less than .5 second - how come you aren't more well known outside of forums?
Originally posted by MarkP
the robber can still pull the trigger faster than you can draw.
And:
5. The robber, upon being shot, won't reflexively clench his hand and pull the trigger and you won't get hit. Your hastily flung speed-rock shot paralyzes the BG instantly, whose gun slides out of his instantaneously insensate grip, to fall harmlessly to the pavement.
Originally posted by dgg9
Your hastily flung speed-rock shot paralyzes the BG instantly, whose gun slides out of his instantaneously insensate grip, to fall harmlessly to the pavement.
That is one of the funniest things I've ever read!
BradC
Originally posted by MarkP
[list=1]
(1) the robber can still pull the trigger faster than you can draw.
(2) If you are drawing in less than .5 second - how come you aren't more well known outside of forums?
(1) And you know this how? ;Q
(2) Because .50 isn't fast! (Bob Munden's .0175 is 28 times faster than .50 seconds.) Did all you guys skip your math classes?
It is way different in REAL life having a gun pointed at you. You would crap in your pants faster than you could draw with a BG's gun in your face. Go back a watch some more Super Cops on TV. Oh Yeh..... is that a puddle you are standing in?
Originally posted by V Creed
Because .50 isn't fast! (Bob Munden's .0175 is 28 times faster than .50 seconds.)
We've been through this already. Why are you ignoring that fact that his draw in that environment is significantly different (and easier) than a real-world CCW draw?
If .50 isn't fast, then why are top shooting competitors saying it IS fast? Are they all wrong or incompetent? Are are you BSing? What's more likely?
mattburkett
09-22-2004, 11:29
OOhhhhoohhhooohhh,
Internet fight!!!!
FIGHT
FIGHT
FIGHT
FIGHT
FIGHT
Huh, ask Bob why he doesn't have the fast draw world record then.
"If you can't do a .30 draw and shoot, including reaction time, better not claim to be a pro shooter." Guess I better call all of my sponsors and tell them I am quitting with my 5 world championships and over 100 other titles. Must not be good enough anymore.
Right, phuctard I have cash that says your full of *****. Want to put some money where your mouth is?
I doubt it, so why don't you just go hide behind your keyboard again.
oooh! I'll put up some cash too! Lets see some high quality video of these lightning fast draws.
Matt told me my .85's were slow, I had no idea they were this slow though... ;)
BradC
Originally posted by V Creed
(1) And you know this how? ;Q
(2) Because .50 isn't fast! (Bob Munden's .0175 is 28 times faster than .50 seconds.) Did all you guys skip your math classes?
Most electronic timers I've seen only go down to the hundreth of a second - how does he get measured to ten thousands of a second ..hmmmm? ^8
and you are using this as an example ?
http://www.bob-munden.com/bob_munden_06_thumb.jpg
I rest my case.
Originally posted by mattburkett
Want to put some money where your mouth is?
I doubt it, so why don't you just go hide behind your keyboard again.
What I bet is this, if you practice (the way I described in a post above) I'll bet that in two weeks, or less, you'll be able to do speed-rocks, and hit a face-to-face armed robber target COM, in .30 to .40 of a second, or less. (I did get below .30 several times, but suspected I "anticipated" the beep, so didn't count those times.)
You only doubt that you can, because you probably never practiced it. I only practiced my fastdraw after watching Bob at work, and wondering how hard it was to do fastdraws.
Use a Glock, shave the triggerguard so you can access the trigger as soon as you clear plastic, and practice. Then come back here and apologise for your insulting, erroneous remarks, and explain to everyone how, thanks to creed, you have learned that .65 is indeed a very pedestrian time.
Same goes for the rest of the nay-sayers. What I say I've done, I have. And if I can, so can anybody else who has normal physical ability.
David Armstrong
09-22-2004, 11:55
I never said this was a street time.
Then it has absolutely no relevance to what we are discussing, which was my point.
A .45 second draw and shoot is plenty fast enough on the street. And I can do that just fine, as long as I'm carrying the right pistol in the right holster.
And the key is "right pistol in the right holster." But I'm going to still have to question the validity of your claim, but I will STILL bet a whole lot of money that you can't do it regularly under simulated street conditions with a somewhat normal street-carry gun.
David Armstrong
09-22-2004, 11:57
.30 isn't all that fast. And your claimed .65 is so slow, it's about what my draw and shoot time was BEFORE I started practicing.
;z ;z ;z ;5 ;5 ;5
Besides being a daring street cop and world-class tough-guy, V Creed is evidently a Holmesian invesitgative genius. Matt Burkett and I have been thoroughly undone.
I "claim" to be a lawyer.
Matt "claims" to a professional shooter.
V's razor sharp discernment was able to cut through such distracting red herrings as my diploma, bar admissions, case load and client list. He wasn't deluded by false leads like Matt's trophies, sponsors and videos.
[Although it is kind of nifty to be put in the same company as Matt Burkett on a shooting board, even if put there by a lunatic.]
Please tell us you've made it all up about being a cop and no one ever really went to jail on your say so and you don't/didn't ever really wander about with a gun and a badge.
David Armstrong
09-22-2004, 12:04
Same goes for the rest of the doubters. What I say I've done, I have. And if I can, so can anybody else who has normal physical ability.
The key there would be your statement of "if I can". Until you can provide some sort of evidence to back up such an outlandish claim, I'm afraid that it has to remain in more-than-a-little-questionable category.
Originally posted by tslex
[Although it is kind of nifty to be put in the same company as Matt Burkett on a shooting board, even if put there by a lunatic.]
Geeze, tslex, the worst thing I ever called you was "lawyer". ;P ;Q ;P
Originally posted by David Armstrong
The key there would be your statement of "if I can". Until you can provide some sort of evidence to back up such an outlandish claim, I'm afraid that it has to remain in more-than-a-little-questionable category.
It's easy to find out. All you have to do is practice about 1/2 hour per day, for two weeks. You can thank me then. ;)
mattburkett
09-22-2004, 12:20
So V does that mean our bet is on?
.30 first shot registered on the clock reacting to a beep on a Pact Mark IV timer?
How does $5000 sound?
Originally posted by V Creed
practice. Then come back here and apologise for your insulting, erroneous remarks, and explain to everyone how, thanks to creed, you have learned that .65 is indeed a very pedestrian time.
Your psychotic break from reality makes me feel I'm in a David Lynch movie.
mattburkett
09-22-2004, 12:35
dgg,
I thought it was a michael moore rerun!!;f ;a ;f
Originally posted by mattburkett
I thought it was a michael moore rerun!!;f ;a ;f
Hey, what are you still doing here? As a known "pedestrian" shooter, you should be out practicing the Vig Creed style, and within a week you'll be at least passable, with <0.30 sec draw times.
Oh, did I mention my new program, which will give you double Michael Jordan's vertical leap in one week? Trust me.
Originally posted by mattburkett
So V does that mean our bet is on?
.30 first shot registered on the clock reacting to a beep on a Pact Mark IV timer?
How does $5000 sound?
You wouldn't pay off anyway.
What about practicing like I described? Do that and in two weeks you'll be glad we didn't bet, because you (being a pro) will probably be way below .30 seconds. I've seen Bob do it way way way faster than that, including reaction time. So under .30 shouldn't be any big feat for you.
In fact, I've seen Bob's very nice wife Becky do it in under .40, including reaction time, with a SA Ruger .45.
What I will do is bet 5k that I can do it faster than your .65, since you seem to think that's fast.
mattburkett
09-22-2004, 12:41
Chicken huh?
Hell V I will wave the cash in front of your nose or even put it in a special bank account. Step up or step off biiatch.:cool:
Vig Creed to Matt Burkett:
Get back to me after you've practiced.
This exchange should be added to the dictionary definition of "chutzpah."
PS: didn't "Bagdad Bob" escape after the Iraq War? I think I know where he ended up.
It's interesting how V Creed complained in prior posts about the downfall of society and the rise of girlie-man.
Because, where and when I grew up, at this point the biggest guy in the crowd would be holding five large from Matt, five large from V, and someone would be rounding up a timer.
The way I see it, there are three camps.
CAMP 1. Guys who take the bet and win it (after which we all say you were right).
CAMP 2. Guys who take the bet and lose it (after which we all say you were full of it, but at least not a coward).
CAMP 3. Blowhard pansies who don't take the bet.
So, to quote a great tactical theorist and practitioner: Which camp are you in?
David Armstrong
09-22-2004, 12:52
It's easy to find out.
It should be. All you have to do is provide some small bit of proof. So far, that has been lacking.
David Armstrong
09-22-2004, 12:55
So V does that mean our bet is on?
Hey now Matt, just a minute! I made the offer of a bet first. I think I should get first shot (excuse the pun) before you take all of his money!
Originally posted by V Creed
....
In fact, I've seen Bob's 55-60 something wife do it in under .40, including reaction time, with a SA Ruger .45.
.....
from Bob Munden's web site (http://www.bob-munden.com/about.htm) The Mundens perform stage shows indoors and outdoors using blank ammunition loaded for safety but powerful enough to break balloon targets 8 feet away.
I have rubber bands that have a greater power factor than that !
Originally posted by mattburkett
Chicken huh?
Hell V I will wave the cash in front of your nose or even put it in a special bank account. Step up or step off biiatch.:cool:
You have my offer. Since I only bet on "sure things", and since you think .65 is so hot, that's the number I'll bet I can beat. And you are in luck, after Bob gave me hell for doing fastdraw with real ammo last year, I quit practicing. So I'm out of practice and have to start all over again.
RULES
Timer: Bob Munden's visual cue timer
Target: Standard IPSC/IDPA target, scored hit/miss, one step away
Shots: 5 tries, best time used for score
Starting position: Standing facing the target 1 yard away, hands any way I want, as long as they are not touching the pistol
Gun: My G-19
Ammo: WallMart el cheapo 9mm FMJ
Holster: My OWB street carry plastic
Clothing: Anything I want
Sole judge and money-holder: Mrs Munden
Shoot Location: Butte Gun Club, Butte, Montana
Date: Within 30 days after your 5k is on deposit, and after I've practiced at least 3x with Bob's timer. (I never have used a visual cue timer before, but am hearing impaired from a year on the VCORPS AMU Pistol Team in the Army, so can't trust to being able to hear "beeps" well enough for a money contest.)
You'll never send the money anyway, and I'll tell you why. When your money is at stake, you'll start practicing Like I described, just to see if I'm right. And when you find out that .65 is indeed real slow, you'll back out.
If not, go ahead and send the money to Becky, and PM me when you do. (See Bob Munden's site for address.)
Originally posted by MarkP
[list=1]
the robber can still pull the trigger faster than you can draw.
you are making the assumption that he will hesitate or doesn't know what he is doing.
much like the past thread of USMC guy drawing and hitting a target in 1.5 seconds from a flap holster ..Bull ****
Bob Munden is the last example I would use to give credit to your position.
[/list=1]
If you are drawing in less than .5 second - how come you aren't more well known outside of forums?
I might disagree with your first sentence. Reaction times can vary widely. A .7 reaction time might very well be reasonable for the BG. Thus Matt and his .65 would be faster. Also what the BG reacts to could be significant also. Just saying you can pull the trigger faster than you can draw leaves out alot of factors. IMHO
David Armstrong
09-22-2004, 13:22
Shots: 5 tries, best time used for score
LOL!! Quick translation: "I don't think that I can do it 80% of the time!" What a hoot! And of course the other requirements are not even close to what was originally suggested/claimed. I think we've just seen the real colors come out.
Originally posted by tslex
CAMP 3. Blowhard pansies who don't take the bet.
So, to quote a great tactical theorist and practitioner: Which camp are you in?
I'll take your 5k too, girlie-man. Send it to Mrs Munden, if you've got the balls. ;f Same rules.
Originally posted by talon
I might disagree with your first sentence. Reaction times can vary widely. A .7 reaction time might very well be reasonable for the BG. Thus Matt and his .65 would be faster. Also what the BG reacts to could be significant also. Just saying you can pull the trigger faster than you can draw leaves out alot of factors. IMHO
Range - CQB - inside 8 feet , (balloon poppin' distance) .
Point a loaded gun at someone.
Place your finger on trigger - safety is off.
Press trigger at any sign of movement.
end of story.
Originally posted by MarkP
Range - CQB - inside 8 feet , (balloon poppin' distance) .
Point a loaded gun at someone.
Place your finger on trigger - safety is off.
Press trigger at any sign of movement.
end of story.
"At any sign of movement". That is the key isnt it ? That gets the ole reaction time down pretty low. Now if the typical BG actually shot "at any sign of movement" I think I would be reading about alot more dead people. Then again I don't like the word typical. I think "the story" isn't quite that cut and dry. Seems to me the BG would be shooting every guy that made a move for his wallet. Of course at least one poster won't be worried about that .1 reaction time. :)
Originally posted by David Armstrong
LOL!! Quick translation: "I don't think that I can do it 80% of the time!" What a hoot! And of course the other requirements are not even close to what was originally suggested/claimed. I think we've just seen the real colors come out.
Shucks, with those rules, I might give it a go, lol.
Silence, Matt? You must have tried a few speed-rocks and found out .65 isn't all that fast?
So........I'll make the proposed event even more interesting.
If I break .65 and win your 5k (and tslex's 5k), I'll shoot the remaining shots for $500 each, with .50 being the time I have to beat. If I break .50, I'll shoot the remaining shots with .45 as the time I have to beat. If I break .45, I'll shoot the remaining shots with .40 as the time I have to beat. If I break .40, I'll shoot the remaining shot with .35 as the time to beat. How's that for fairness?
Since the winter temperature in Butte ranges from +50F to -40F (it snowed here last Sunday and Monday), and the wind is always ripping at the range, my only stipulation is that I can wait to shoot until the temp is +30F, or warmer.
Originally posted by MarkP
Range - CQB - inside 8 feet , (balloon poppin' distance) .
Point a loaded gun at someone.
Place your finger on trigger - safety is off.
Press trigger at any sign of movement.
end of story.
I guess you've never seen any really fast draw & shoot guys? I can't do it, but Bob Munden could draw and shoot (and probably even have his .45 back in his holster) before you could pull the trigger. And that's with you alert and ready, which an armed robber probably wouldn't be. End of story.
Originally posted by V Creed
I guess you've never seen any really fast draw & shoot guys? I can't do it, but Bob Munden could draw and shoot (and probably even have his .45 back in his holster) before you could pull the trigger. And that's with you alert and ready, which an armed robber probably wouldn't be. End of story.
Yes, your advice requires Bob Munden level skills to pull off. Only Bob Munden has those skills. And even Bob Munden might well get shot by the BG's reflexive trigger pull. Hence your advice is ridiculous. End of story.
Originally posted by V Creed
Silence, Matt? You must have tried a few speed-rocks and found out .65 isn't all that fast?
No, we all saw your weasel-like attempt to change the terms of the bet for what it was: laughable.
Originally posted by dgg9
Yes, your advice requires Bob Munden level skills to pull off. Only Bob Munden has those skills. And even Bob Munden might well get shot by the BG's reflexive trigger pull. Hence your advice is ridiculous. End of story.
Why reflexive ? If he doesn't get a CNS hit, the BG might very well make some deliberate shots. I remember the video of the bank robber who took a round to the heart and was still able to run outside of the bank.
Originally posted by talon
Why reflexive ? If he doesn't get a CNS hit, the BG might very well make some deliberate shots.
Sure, he might very well get several aimed shots.
What I'm saying is that -- unlike we safety-ingrained shooters -- he'll likely have finger on trigger, so at a minimum, when shot, he'll squeeze off at least that one round.
The notion that the gun will glide harmlessly from his instantly relaxed fingers is wishful thinking.
For the record, I'm not saying not to draw on the drawn gun -- if you think there's little choice. The whole issue from the other thread is to rationally assess the BG's intentions, and do a risk comparison of your options (and also not to kid yourself about your chances of walking away unscathed). If you genuinely think he's going to hurt you anyway, you pick your best time and make your move and hope your training and practice carry the day. But if all he wants is your wallet and is unlikely to shoot you, you might come to a different conclusion, namely that escalation here may not be beneficial for you.
Thanks for the clarification. I pretty much agree with your post. I know of at least one case where the GG prevailed against the drawn gun. He did use a distraction though. Of course if the BG will let me take my cover garment off, kneel down 1 yard in front of me with his head lined up at a level with the top of my holster, and I can place my hand directly above my gun........ :)
Originally posted by dgg9
Sure, he might very well get several aimed shots.
What I'm saying is that -- unlike we safety-ingrained shooters -- he'll likely have finger on trigger, so at a minimum, when shot, he'll squeeze off at least that one round.
The notion that the gun will glide harmlessly from his instantly relaxed fingers is wishful thinking.
For the record, I'm not saying not to draw on the drawn gun -- if you think there's little choice. The whole issue from the other thread is to rationally assess the BG's intentions, and do a risk comparison of your options (and also not to kid yourself about your chances of walking away unscathed). If you genuinely think he's going to hurt you anyway, you pick your best time and make your move and hope your training and practice carry the day. But if all he wants is your wallet and is unlikely to shoot you, you might come to a different conclusion, namely that escalation here may not be beneficial for you.
mattburkett
09-23-2004, 08:31
V, no I was not silence, I have a life outside of a computer. I find it amazing that you got my original proposal and immediately chickened out on it and posted your new rules and then try to act tough. LOL. I like how the time went from a .30 to now a .65 for the contest. Hell I can beat a .65 with your rules. I could probably get a monkey to do that and without two weeks of practice. Figures you don't want to step up to the real test.;n
Replacement of the timer is cute too. "Bob Munden's visual cue timer" Oh thats right because that is an industry standard timer! BS. You get to use a real timer from PACT, CE or CED because that is what everyone else in the real world uses for competition or tactical training. I will call Pact and have them add a light to one just to help you out. Oh and BTW we start hands relaxed at sides not a millimeter from the gun which would definitely be obvious to the bad guy. This isn't a bad cowboy movie at High Noon.
You are just in the wrong forum. ( I am not sure which one you should be in, it just isn't here.) For the wannabe fast draw stuff, I have done a .27 draw once. Guess what? Nobody cares since that isn't streetable gear or position. We were talking about a defensive real world draw. But apparently you missed that.
BTW a .65 is a real world on demand draw from hands at sides to a Comp-tac.com holster to the "Burkett Fighting Stance" (you guys like that one? hehe) with both hands getting to the gun and bringing it up to eye level for an A zone hit at 10 yards. I can keep effectively firing after that too not just one shot one yard away. My record is a .53 from hands at sides with a Pact timer on a 7 yard target. 1.21 was the record for Draw Shot Reload Shot that I set for Gungames magazine on film.
Step up or step off Girlyman!
Pact timer (we will add a light for you)
Target at 1 yard cause I feel like being nice (COM hit is all that counts)
Hands relaxed at sides
Beat a .30
Glock - don't care what mods it has
Holster in a carry position - IDPA rules
Very impressive Matt !! What are your first shot times from concealment ? I see some .9's at the local clubs which is my current goal.
As has been pointed out, V Creed, you stated you could make the draw in .1. Then you amended to say you could make it in .3. Then you said "what I say I can do I can do" or words to that effect (I'm not interested in you enough to quote your prior posts, but it's there, unless you edit them).
Then Matt challenged you to a bet to back up the second claim (which was giving you a break, since the time is three times greater than your first claim).
You did not take that bet. (See my prior post about Three Camps and blowhard pansies.)
Then you offered another bet, a silly bet, that you can speed rock faster than .65 seconds. Now you are surprised no one will take this silliness. That "bet" has all the uncertainty of a bet that if I push you off the roof of a building in a vacuum (and wouldn't that be fun) you will fall at about 9.8 meters/sec/sec.
Bottom line: you CLAIMED you could draw and fire a shot that would put down a BG in .1. Then you claimed you could do it in .3. You can't.
Which would be a big "so what" if you weren't on a tactics board suggesting that this fantasy was the basis for a real-world armed response and calling those who disagree nasty names.
Welcome to my ignore list.
My personal shooting rules:
1) Luby's cafeteria, kill 'em all situation: shoot
2) "we're gonna take a little ride" situation: subterfuge, distraction, shoot.
3) Home invasion, or MENACING armed bad guys in my house: shoot
All other situations: play it by ear, with the intention of avoiding violence, because:
a) Robbery and burglary don't deserve the death penalty.
b) If I escalate the violence there's no guarantee I'm the one who's gonna win (no matter how good I am), there's no guarantee my shots (or HIS shots, that I've incited) aren't gonna hit an innocent bystander (no matter how careful I am), OR, I COULD find out after it's all over that I misunderstood the seriousness of the situation--and I might feel very very bad that I killed someone who maybe wasn't overall such a terrible desperado.
c) A WHOLE LOT less paperwork and lawsuits!
d) No kidding, the other day at the range I got TWO dead-primer misfires from Winchester Silver Tips (they were over 20 years old. Musta got a tiny bit of oil on them over all that time), AND, my 1911 that has NEVER failed to function in ANY WAY for close to THIRTY YEARS decided to catch the slide release bar in the take down notch during recoil (BOY, it took me a bit to figure out what the heck happened!). You can never tell! Talk about being scared, try drawing on an armed felon and having your gun go "CLICK!"
People who want to fire at the least excuse are making MANY BIG MISTAKES. They need to look at themselves and perceive that the real reason they want to fight isn't their own safety, but some other, well,..."immature" reason.
Originally posted by V Creed
I guess you've never seen any really fast draw & shoot guys? I can't do it, but Bob Munden could draw and shoot (and probably even have his .45 back in his holster) before you could pull the trigger. And that's with you alert and ready, which an armed robber probably wouldn't be. End of story.
I don't expect Bob Munden to create any significant injury with his "loads that are safe but can still burst a balloon at 8 yds".
He does have some interesting ccw gear - for the year 1850 .
mattburkett
09-23-2004, 10:57
As has been pointed out, V Creed, you stated you could make the draw in .1. Then you amended to say you could make it in .3. Then you said "what I say I can do I can do" or words to that effect (I'm not interested in you enough to quote your prior posts, but it's there, unless you edit them).
Thanks for being more succinct than I was. :)
This goes out to you and Markp
^6
Originally posted by mattburkett
[B]
(1) Hell I can beat a .65 with your rules.
(2) Replacement of the timer is cute too.
(3) Oh and BTW we start hands relaxed at sides not a millimeter from the gun which would definitely be obvious to the bad guy.
(4) I have done a .27 draw once.
(5) Step up or step off Girlyman!
(1) You can beat .65? That's exactly what I've been saying all along. Anyone who practices a little bit can beat .65. You were the one denying it, and claiming .65 was so fast.
(2) As I've alread said, I'm hearing impaired from too many gun shots on the Army Pistol Team and can't hear "beeps" with or without muffs on. I can only hear them with hearing aids on. (Do you always have to take advantage of the handicaped to win?)
(3) Hands relaxed at sides? Since when did felons start mandating a certain "victim starting position" ??? (I've gone hand-to-hand, and disarmed felons armed with pistols three times, and never once started relaxed with hands at sides. That's just gamesmanship BS that doesn't apply on the street.)
(4) You've done a .27 draw & shoot??? At the risk of repeating myself once again, what I've been saying is that .30 is fast (for me), but the .65 time you originally quoted is real, real, slow (for me). And you just proved it.
(5) You've got my offer, step up or step off. And I haven't done a single fastdraw in the past year or two, until this AM when I got my old rig out and did a few. So you have a really big advantage, since I'm way out of practice.
Like I originally said, I knew you weren't going to take the bet. Why? Because you know I can do what I say. And so can just about anybody else who practices a little bit, including you, as you have already admitted.
My rig, that I just got out of the safe, is an actual street-carry gun and holster. It's a G-19, with only one fastdraw mod = shaved triggerguard. Holster = 100% stock BladeTech, standard vertical on-belt concealed carry model, that carries the pistol high, with grip about elbow level. It's a plain-Jane street rig, designed for concealed carry.
Perhaps you don't realize it, but IPSC and IDPA are no more "street realistic" than the fastdraw contest we have been discussing. I've "been there", and know the difference.
How about you tslex? Is your 5k in or out? And how about the wimpy little "never been there" fantasyland BS champ dgg9? I'll be glad to let you in on the bet too, if your mommy will lend you the money.
Originally posted by V Creed
You've done a .27 ??? At the risk of repeating myself, that's ecxactly what I've been saying. Your .65 is real, real, slow, and you just proved it.
I must say, your obnoxiousness and denseness, while once annoying, are now becoming amusing. Now that I know you're a blowhard/buffoon, never to be taken seriously, I can have fun with this. Once I decided you are the GT "Cliff Claven," the rest fell into place.
Your current denseness-du-jour: you are invalidly mixing draw types. The cowboy fast draw, that people might get .27 in, is completely non sequitur to a defensive situation. No one on the street wears a low slung leg holster with no cover garment. The .68 draw time refers to street gear: belt holster not further forward than 3:00 (and realistically more like 4:00 - 5:00 for most people), cover garment, etc. No one starts with hand almost touching the gun.
You are conflating the two: claiming the cowboy quick-draw time will transfer to street gear/clothes.
Well dgg9, since you claim to know so much, where is your 5k? Or are you all name-calling hot air, and no substance? Put your money where your clueless effeminate mouth is, and start acting like a man.
Originally posted by V Creed
Well dgg9, since you claim to know so much, where is your 5k? Or are you all name-calling hot air, and no substance? Put your money where your clueless effeminate mouth is, and start acting like a man.
Gee, Cliffie, should I take your bogus, altered bet? Nah. But I'll buy into the real bet, the one Matt Burkett offered, the one you bragged you could do. THAT bet I'll take. Or are you all name-calling hot air, and no substance? Put your money where your clueless effeminate mouth is, and start acting like a man.
dgg9 incisively wrote:
GT's "Cliff CLaven"
And Matt Burkett said I was succinct!?
"Uh, you see Sammy, when your average North American bad guy is engaged in a nefarious act of armed crime, it's been well documented that a lightning fast draw of the type practiced by certain tribes found in the deep Amazon. . . . "
Originally posted by dgg9
[B]Gee, should I take your bogus, altered bet? Nah.
That's exactly what I thought. A "golly gee" wuss.
Tell you what I'll do. I'll break the bet down into two phases.
Phase one: $2.5k says I can break .65, same rules as I outlined above.
Phase two: Another 2.5k says I can break .40, same rules. (To refresh your memory, I originally said I had done draw & shoots in .30-.40 of a second, including reaction time = under .40.)
Same deal for Matt & tslex, since they don't seem willing to cough up money for my original offer.
Originally posted by tslex
"Uh, you see Sammy, when your average North American bad guy is engaged in a nefarious act of armed crime, it's been well documented that a lightning fast draw of the type practiced by certain tribes found in the deep Amazon. . . . "
"It's a little known fact, there, Diane, that a sub-microsecond draw can be learned inside a week...."
Oh ! I didnt pick up on those .68, .65 times were from concealment.
WOW !!!
Originally posted by dgg9
I must say, your obnoxiousness and denseness, while once annoying, are now becoming amusing. Now that I know you're a blowhard/buffoon, never to be taken seriously, I can have fun with this. Once I decided you are the GT "Cliff Claven," the rest fell into place.
Your current denseness-du-jour: you are invalidly mixing draw types. The cowboy fast draw, that people might get .27 in, is completely non sequitur to a defensive situation. No one on the street wears a low slung leg holster with no cover garment. The .68 draw time refers to street gear: belt holster not further forward than 3:00 (and realistically more like 4:00 - 5:00 for most people), cover garment, etc. No one starts with hand almost touching the gun.
You are conflating the two: claiming the cowboy quick-draw time will transfer to street gear/clothes.
Originally posted by talon
Oh ! I didnt pick up on those .68, .65 times were from concealment.
I don't know if Matt's times were from concealment, but in any event they're with streetable gear: a real holster in a real location, a real draw starting from some neutral hand position, etc.
The more real you make it, the slower the draw becomes. Cover garments can range from moderately in the way to really in the way, as in winter time. Conversely, in the summer, the cover garment might be light, but you're more likely to have on a slower-to-access IWB (as opposed to OWB).
Your real life rig and clothes -- on that day, at that moment -- are all going to be subtly a little bit moved around, just a little arbitrary in where it's sitting and unpredictable, so don't count on the same well-honed draw you get in competition, much less the ludicrous cowboy quickdraw maneuver.
and you should be .15 second faster at 10 ft, since you can fire a 2 handed point shot and hit the chest at that range, if you are pretty good. If you are drawing on the guy, YOUR reaction time (.20 second) is NOT part of your (.50 second WITH reaction time) So an OPENLY worn rig draw against a bad guy could be .30 second, but you wont get the chance, and concealment will add BACK that .20 second.
If the guy has a DA trigger pull, and you hit him in the chest with a MASSIVELY effective rd, the odds are that he will be unable to fire any sort of shot at all, much less a controled one. If you follow up with more such loads, at .14 second splits, you are really likely to overwhelm the guy.
When a guy is pointing a gun at you, but NOT shooting, he doesn't WANT to shoot you, right there and then. That means he has to REVERSE his thought process and message that his nerves are sending to his trigger finger. He may be unable to take a life on purpose, you know. Most men can't, not even to save their own lives. However, scumbags usually number among the 25% or so of the population who CAN take a life. He may well miss you, or get a poor hit, and immediate medical care can still save you, even if you are hit in one lung, the spleen etc. They can save you sometimes hours after you take a .32 ball hit to the guts, too.
competitors. I've heard that from Bob Arganbright. all the real Western shottists know that Bob used to cheat on the "self start" times. He'd set the timer button (on a 3 legged stand) in such a way as to let him Draw his SA revolver from his low cut rig, and still be holding down the timer with his trigger finger. His Guiness claim of .02 second draw (no reaction time) and just noise making with a blank, was nothing more than the time to yank the trigger and the hammer to fall. :-)
In other words, let's say you post a .25 second to react, draw and hit with wax at 5 yds, somewhere on the torso, from a hand-hover start position, "twisting" the gun out of the rig,holding the trigger back, and fanning the hammer. You have 3 tries to come within .03 of you record (.28 second) for a hit under the same condtions, or your shot is blown off as having been a "jump'. IN other words, you drew slightly BEFORE the signal of the timer, which negated some or all of your .20 second reaction time. So lets say you really can average .35 second for such a reaction draw and hit, and you shave .10 second off by "jumping" the start signal. That is such a tiny time frame that no one can see that you "cheated". So they instituted the "back it up" rule, for establishing what's a real record time.
and your hand is ALREADY in your front pants pocket, already with a firing grip on a proper pocket pistol, in a slick Kydex pocket rig, neither pocket nor pants being too tight, and a Khaki sized "mouth" on the pants pocket, and the Kydex rig is velcroed into the pocket, you can SLOWLY pull the gun clear of the pocket, and THEN go fast. He will have at most .20 second before you can chest hit him at arm's length. That's most likely where he will BE, ya know, since he said:"hand it over. Some guys can get clear of the pocket and level(ie, gut hit) in as little as .15 second.
He has to REALIZE that what you are doing is not handing over a wallet, AND THEN react to that realization. All that is going to take him .30 second, minimum, and probably more like .40 second. In .40 second, from just "clear" of the pocket, you can get both hands on i the pocket pc and BRAIN him, at 10 ft or less.
Originally posted by ussee
competitors. I've heard that from Bob Arganbright. all the real Western shottists know that Bob used to cheat on the "self start" times.
ussee, your buddy is full of it. I've watched Bob Munden do draw & shoots on the clock many times, and anyone who says he cheats, is a liar.
Yeah, I asked Matt about his concealment times, I think he has me on ignore. :) .65 from concealment impresses the heck out of me. I shoot IDPA a little bit, all seasons, and hopefully the rig movement and clothing choices and movement will mirror real life. Actually I think some of those IDPA stages are much tougher than the real thing. :) From a rig, clothing, movement perspective. Havent had a single target shoot back yet. :)
Originally posted by dgg9
I don't know if Matt's times were from concealment, but in any event they're with streetable gear: a real holster in a real location, a real draw starting from some neutral hand position, etc.
The more real you make it, the slower the draw becomes. Cover garments can range from moderately in the way to really in the way, as in winter time. Conversely, in the summer, the cover garment might be light, but you're more likely to have on a slower-to-access IWB (as opposed to OWB).
Your real life rig and clothes -- on that day, at that moment -- are all going to be subtly a little bit moved around, just a little arbitrary in where it's sitting and unpredictable, so don't count on the same well-honed draw you get in competition, much less the ludicrous cowboy quickdraw maneuver.
Just wondering if anybody else thinks Mr. V Creed. has the right mindset AFTER its been determined that one has to go to guns ?
Talon asked:
Just wondering if anybody else thinks Mr. V Creed. has the right mindset AFTER its been determined that one has to go to guns ?
Ya know what, I almost do. Once the DECISION has been made to go to guns, go as fast as you can, get rounds on from retention, shoot the threat to the ground, have the mindset and will to keep fighting through whatever happens to you (b/c in the scenario we've been discussing you are very likely to get shot). I'd add that you have to MOVE offline as well.
Trouble with V Creed (besides his vacuous rhetoric, unlikely boasts and needles ad hominem attacks) is that he cannot understand (or at least his over-inflated self view requires him to act as if he cannot understand) the need to actually DECIDE. The better tactic might be to comply, or to seem to comply, or to distract, or to move, or to go hands on, or to use a blade or impact weapon, or . . . or. . . or. . . Every battle, Sun Tzu says, is won or lost before it is fought.
What matters most -- what will determine the outcome -- is mindset and the decision.
Unless you are a self-deluded blowhard, then what matters is talking tough.
mattburkett
09-23-2004, 16:41
So you still whine and won't take the bet.
Figures. Now everyone knows exactly what kind of person you are and I bet no one is surprised.
Deaf Smith
09-23-2004, 17:10
Guys, ussee is gunkid. You remember him, right. That's Hardin, tobe, yessir, kiddoblue, etc... The troll. Same old gunkid.
Deaf
Originally posted by mattburkett
So you still whine and won't take the bet.
Figures. Now everyone knows exactly what kind of person you are and I bet no one is surprised.
Matt, there you go, wanting to bet again! ;Q
You are the one who brought up betting in the first place, not me. But ever since I accepted, you have been coming up with all kinds of wuss excuses to back out. ;T
That doesn't surprise me a bit, since I predicted you would right from the start.
Tell you what I'll do. Your current excuse for backing out, and a flimsy one at that, is you want me to use a "beep" start instead of a "visual".
What I'll offer to do is use X-Ring fastdraw rubber bullets (which I never used before, but just now ordered from Dillon) so that I can shoot without hearing protection. That way I can (maybe) hear the "beep" well enough to draw on time. Plus that will allow me to shoot indoors, so the weather won't hold things up.
Does that suit you? Or are you going to keep on ;1 about every little thing, and wimp out again?
This is your last chance to make an easy 5k, because I'm tired of fooling around.
blank shot is about .06 second.
No, Matt did NOT say that he got .65 second for A zone hits at 10 yds, including reaction time and a concealed draw. He said he could do that from an openly worn speed rig. That's still lightning fast, as fast as anyone has EVER proven it could be done, with secure gear and live ammo and an average, for such hits at such a range. I used to crack .70 second pretty reliably, when I was warmed up, with a rig that's probably .05 second slower than the rig he uses, but I'd never bet on getting better shots than to hit the C zone at such speeds. The 10" A zone is alot smaller than the entire torso. Under pressue, I'd never bet on averaging under .80 second, and only half of them in the A zone. :-) 'That's still moving right along. With a cocked and locked `1911, that is moving so fast that the slightest "catch" in the draw can mean a round goes down your leg.
I'm surprised ! That a man with your rep would give him the time of day. :) Then again your the only super squad guy I know who is willing to receive phone calls. !
Edited to add, Rob and Brian has returned my emails, but David didnt, probably and email problem.
Originally posted by mattburkett
So you still whine and won't take the bet.
Figures. Now everyone knows exactly what kind of person you are and I bet no one is surprised.
Originally posted by V Creed
Matt, there you go, wanting to bet again! ;Q
You are the one who brought up betting in the first place, not me. But ever since I accepted, you have been coming up with all kinds of wuss excuses to back out. ;T
That doesn't surprise me a bit, since I predicted you would right from the start. Why? Because like all tinhorns, you like to bully others around, but can't walk the walk when called.
Tell you what I'll do. Your current excuse for backing out, and a flimsy one at that, is you want me to use a "beep" start instead of a "visual". Even though I've explained that I can't use a "beep" due to a severe gunshot induced +90% hearing loss in both ears.
What I'll offer to do is use X-Ring fastdraw rubber bullets (which I never used before, but just now ordered from Dillon) so that I can shoot without hearing protection, and with hearing aids on. That way I can (maybe) hear the "beep" well enough to draw on time. Plus they will allow me to shoot indoors, so the weather won't hold things up.
Does that suit you? Or are you going to keep on ;1 about every little thing, and wimp out again?
This is your last chance to make an easy 5k, because I'm tired of fooling around. PM me when the money is on the way to the Mundens.
just a point-of-order:
Matt offers the bet and VCREED accepts.
Matt sets the conditions and determines who holds the $$, NOT VCREED.
Can you imagine going to Vegas and stetting up your own rules to play the house? That is what VCREED is attempting here.
If you can't "hear the beep" - get a set of electronic earmuffs.
mattburkett
09-23-2004, 19:36
Ahh,
I have offered a lighted version of the Pact timer and no you still haven't accepted my bet. You keep making up crappier versions of the same thing only slower and easier. Figures. ;Q
BTW USEE the .68 average was my time out of my Comp-Tac holster in an IDPA legal position. You are correct, that wasn't concealed. .85 concealed. :) This was just after having trained up for the Steel Challenge.
MarkP, I wish I could do that in Vegas. I would OWN that town! "No, no, no, I want to get paid triple on a blackjack and I want an extra 10 aces in every deck!!!" Yeah, that would make that game easier.
Talon, thanks for the compliments. :)
Is this "bet" thing going to happen? V Creed and Matt, why don't you agree to some terms and get it on.
If you both used the same holster make, gun make and ammo, just see who is faster. Matt says he is 0.65 and V Creed claims he is under that. Just shoot a standard crossed popper stop plate. It could be clocked, but bottom plate wins. Best 3 out of 5.
Or use a clamshell with an activator. An impartial party can yank the rope. Shoot 5 times each. Fastest time wins, or fastest average time wins.
There are many ways to set up a reasonable criteria.
If V Creed is at 0.3 or whatever and Matt thinks it can't be done, then that seems reasonable.
You guys can use my home range in Colorado, it still not too cold.
Hey now ! No common sense allowed.
Originally posted by MarkCO
Is this "bet" thing going to happen? V Creed and Matt, why don't you agree to some terms and get it on.
If you both used the same holster make, gun make and ammo, just see who is faster. Matt says he is 0.65 and V Creed claims he is under that. Just shoot a standard crossed popper stop plate. It could be clocked, but bottom plate wins. Best 3 out of 5.
Or use a clamshell with an activator. An impartial party can yank the rope. Shoot 5 times each. Fastest time wins, or fastest average time wins.
There are many ways to set up a reasonable criteria.
If V Creed is at 0.3 or whatever and Matt thinks it can't be done, then that seems reasonable.
You guys can use my home range in Colorado, it still not too cold.
Thank goodness !!!!!!!!! .85 I can deal with. :) Just a few more years. :)
Originally posted by mattburkett
Ahh,
I have offered a lighted version of the Pact timer and no you still haven't accepted my bet. You keep making up crappier versions of the same thing only slower and easier. Figures. ;Q
BTW USEE the .68 average was my time out of my Comp-Tac holster in an IDPA legal position. You are correct, that wasn't concealed. .85 concealed. :) This was just after having trained up for the Steel Challenge.
MarkP, I wish I could do that in Vegas. I would OWN that town! "No, no, no, I want to get paid triple on a blackjack and I want an extra 10 aces in every deck!!!" Yeah, that would make that game easier.
Talon, thanks for the compliments. :)
Ya know, all this name calling, challenging, fast time arguments, patting on the back, etc.. is fun!!! But hard to read...
Can we set up a conference call for tomorrow???? This would be much better to listen to then read!!! And we can quickly come to terms on how the competition will go, and how much the bet will be for!!!
EK
Halfcocked
09-24-2004, 02:40
The best discussion V. Creed has created on this board wasn't an actual thread, but several Glocktalkers at a recent tactical class wondering whether he was actually a police officer or just a 16 year old kid living with his parents. We settled on the latter.
Now, where did I leave that "Do not feed the trolls" sign??
the coat left unfastened? since bad weather, decorum, or heat can meann you use a shirt, or FASTEN the coat, that "little finger brush" FBI style is bs,most of the time. I only used one hand clearing methods for practicing for strong hand only scenarios. Even if wearing an unfastened coat, I clear it with the weak hand, both for simplification of techniques (KISS) and for getting a better shot at an unsnagged,proper firing grip on the gun.
I could get .85 sec ccw times, too, after getting warmed up and inside the C zone, at 5 yds, with a lw Commander,from under a hung out T shirt tail, navel rig.
Glenn E. Meyer
09-24-2004, 09:06
Originally posted by Halfcocked
The best discussion V. Creed has created on this board wasn't an actual thread, but several Glocktalkers at a recent tactical class wondering whether he was actually a police officer or just a 16 year old kid living with his parents. We settled on the latter.
Now, where did I leave that "Do not feed the trolls" sign??
;z ;z ;z ;z ;z
From the old guy! ;z ;z ;z
See you again, soon.
Originally posted by MarkCO
Is this "bet" thing going to happen? V Creed and Matt, why don't you agree to some terms and get it on.
If V Creed is at 0.3 or whatever and Matt thinks it can't be done, then that seems reasonable.
I've posted the offer, rules, and shoot location. I've designated an honest, well known, fastdraw expert as stakes-holder and judge. Now it's up to Matt to send his $$$ in, or decline.
If he does send it in, I'll put up my $$$, and shoot within 30 days, indoors, using the make and model timer he specified.
I'll repost the final version of the rules:
RULES
Timer: The make/model timer Matt has demanded, "beep" que
Hearing protection: none, shooter will wear hearing aids
Target: Standard IPSC or IDPA target, scored hit/miss, one step away
Shots: 5 tries, best time with hit used for score
Starting position: Standing facing the target 1 yard away, hands any way the shooter wants, as long as they are not touching the pistol
Gun: Glock 19
Ammo: X-Ring rubber bullets (type typically used in fastdraw contests)
Holster: Stock OWB concealed-street-carry BladeTech, worn in standard verticle position on trouser belt
Clothing: Any
Sole judge and money-holder: Becky Munden, Munden Enterprises, former SASS women's national champion
Shoot Location: Butte, Montana, at any suitable, well lit, indoor location
MATCH #1: 5 tries to beat Matt's .65 second time. Stakes = 2.5k
MATCH #2: 5 tries to equal creed's claimed .30 to .40 time bracket = must beat .40 second. Stakes = 2.5k
Originally posted by Halfcocked
The best discussion V. Creed has created on this board wasn't an actual thread, but several Glocktalkers at a recent tactical class wondering whether he was actually a police officer or just a 16 year old kid living with his parents. We settled on the latter.
Now, where did I leave that "Do not feed the trolls" sign??
Boy, do I wish I was 16 again!!! I'm an old xcop, 3 "Officer of the Year" awards, SWAT team leader, Poilce Sniper, and made 300-400 felony arrests in 8 years on the mean streets of a S.FL ghetto city.
That was back when police "tactics" amounted to crashing doors (before the BG's knew we were there) and always shooting first, if necessary.
If you think I'm a troll, you can put up 5k too. ;f
How many times did you slip in the puddle you made on the floor?
Originally posted by Gunhand
How many times did you slip in the puddle you made on the floor?
I'll let you throw in 5k too, if you are so sure of your judgement. ;f
Isn't it strange that none of those questioning my credentials are cops or xcops? ;P
and he's talking about AVERAGES, of 5 tries, not one lucky FLUKE, and he said using a SECURE holster, a fighting handgun,and hands at sides start position. My kid's old lady can post times in the .50's, using an SA revolver, at 1 yd, hand hover start position, with a walk and draw rig and an SA revolver, with the hammer spur sticking up in the air 2". Try it with a REAL gun and holster, at the range the man specified, hands at sides, average of 5 tries, wussy.
Originally posted by V Creed
I'll let you throw in 5k too, if you are so sure of your judgement. ;f
Isn't it strange that none of those questioning my credentials are cops or xcops? ;P
How do you know what my credentials are? I am not the one that wants to do door smashing on BG's that don't know your coming.( Not that they done deserve it )Or the guy who claims to be a quick draw. I am the guy that puts myself in front of bullets that are ment for someone else and knows they are coming. Are you willing to do that?
Halfcocked
09-24-2004, 12:00
And another V Creed thread readies to close...