View Full Version : gun fear
GARRY SMART
09-28-2004, 04:12
I'm a police weapons trainer now mostly concerned with teaching student police officers. I would be interested to hear from other trainers how they deal with students (police or otherwise), who show initial fear and nervousness on the range and in dry fire.
cheers
Smarts
I would suggest they consider a career in either the foodservice or janitorial industries. They will NEVER be good cops and should do your community the service of looking for alternative employment.
haspelbein
10-03-2004, 17:43
From my experience in the military, a certain low-level fear of guns may be natural and can be turned into a healthy respect, which is helpful.
I have however also seen people with an irrational fear of guns. In fact, I remember a person throwing up upon touching an HK G3 for the first time. Those people cannot be helped.
mrclean099
10-04-2004, 02:26
I used to have a fear of firearms. Not a completely irrational fear, just enough fear to keep me away from guns and all things associated with them. I think it stemmed from my sister attempting suicide with my father's old 20ga when I was a kid. She didn't pull the trigger, thank goodness. After that, I had trouble playing with realistic toy guns and GI Joe stuff.
I'm not a trainer, so please pardon me for hijacking the thread. I just wanted to give my input because I know what its like to fear guns. I'd say a little bit of personal counselling may be necessary for those who are timid around firearms. Of course, someone training to be a soldier or police officer should've handled it themselves before committing to training.
Maturity and healthy curiosity cured me. I think having a slight fear of firearms is a good thing. It encourages safe behavior. The more important thing I would be asking these gun shy recruits is whether or not they could kill someone. After all, what good is someone trained to use a firearm in combat if they can't shoot the enemy?
-Matt C.-
With all due respect, the best advice you could give recruits with gun phobias is to go get jobs as unarmed social workers, where they belong. ;Q
David Armstrong
10-04-2004, 12:21
Sigh. Despite the more radical rantings of some, nervousness and fear on the range or when initially handling a gun are to be expected. In fact, if someone were not a bit uncomfortable doing something new with such potential ramifications I'd question them. I've run a lot of people through training that were scared to death at the start, but were quite comfortable at the end of it. It is no different than being fearful the first time you take a cruiser therough a pursuit driving course, or being nervous about performance on the H2H mats. Claims that such people cannot be good officers have no basis in fact, and a large number of those who were fearful of guns initially have gone on to serve in honorable and effective LE and military careers.
Glenn E. Meyer
10-04-2004, 15:29
While Vicki Farnham's book is oriented towards women, it has good tips on dealing with the gun shy.
http://www.dtipubs.com/
I heard her talk and she has a good handle on it.
As far as what seems a true phobia, I doubt someone with that would go into law enforcement but such things can be treated very effectively nowadays.
Originally posted by Glenn E. Meyer
...As far as what seems a true phobia, I doubt someone with that would go into law enforcement but such things can be treated very effectively nowadays.
Unreasonable fear/panic = phobia. It may be lessened through emersion therapy and time, but it's always there, just under the surface, waiting to reappear. Unfortunately, it is most likely to resurface when faced with a gun in a life/death situation.
A true gun phobia (unreasonable fear of guns) could paralize the officer, or even cause her to flee in terror, at the worst possible moment. This, in turn, could cause the death of herself or of others.
The point? No one with a true gun phobia should be allowed to work as a police officer, for their own safety, as well as the safety of others. Refer them to a social work agency for employment. NO EXCEPTIONS, IMO! Phobias are forever.
Interesting. I am of one mind if one has fear of the gun. I am of another mind if one has fear(or being nervous) that he might not perform correctly with the gun.
Originally posted by David Armstrong
Sigh. Despite the more radical rantings of some, nervousness and fear on the range or when initially handling a gun are to be expected. In fact, if someone were not a bit uncomfortable doing something new with such potential ramifications I'd question them. I've run a lot of people through training that were scared to death at the start, but were quite comfortable at the end of it. It is no different than being fearful the first time you take a cruiser therough a pursuit driving course, or being nervous about performance on the H2H mats. Claims that such people cannot be good officers have no basis in fact, and a large number of those who were fearful of guns initially have gone on to serve in honorable and effective LE and military careers.
MrGlock21
10-07-2004, 19:20
Originally posted by mrclean099
[B]I think having a slight fear of firearms is a good thing.
/B]
I don't think so.
Perhaps you confuse FEAR with RESPECT.
Yes, it's a good thing to respect a firearm.
Originally posted by MrGlock21
I don't think so.
Perhaps you confuse FEAR with RESPECT.
Yes, it's a good thing to respect a firearm.
Interesting, I don't respect my firearms, or any of my other tools. :) I have respect for those who use tools well. I don't fear guns but I fear an idiot with a gun. Then again I'm sure that there are those who see guns as an oject of art.
Marty Hayes
10-08-2004, 12:58
Originally posted by GARRY SMART
I'm a police weapons trainer now mostly concerned with teaching student police officers. I would be interested to hear from other trainers how they deal with students (police or otherwise), who show initial fear and nervousness on the range and in dry fire.
cheers
Smarts
Garry:
Given your political climate down there, it is understandable that there might be some societal pre-conditioning, resulting this initial fear. I also agree with the comments that if the coppers to be can't get over it quickly, flush them.
No real tips here, just take all the mystery out of them by giving a good explanation on how they work, with a strict safety protocol.
This thread brings me back in time to the student who showed up in class many, many years ago, who wanted to overcome her fear of guns. According to her, she witnessed her family slaughtered when she was a child.
Anyway, we got her up on the line, tears rolling down her face, and knowing what was going on, we just kept her at it until she became confortable around them. (It wasalso my understanding that her new male partner had guns, and this was one of the reasons she wanted to kick this fear).
Exposure, safety and support brought her through it. Good luck.
One family member in law enforcment took entry level some firearms certification training (shotgun,& revolver) with a mix of sherriff, corrections, and probation staff.
Some of the probation staff were actually shaking when given revolvers for dry firing.
Some had been in a 'social service' probation function rather than warrant service, home visit or investigative function which is done by some sherriff staff.
He was amazed at how poor shots many of the class were.
Ironically 2 probation guys and a corrections guy were the best shots. BUT they were serious big game and bird hunters.
GoGoGophers
10-19-2004, 00:10
Amazing. How a simple, straightforward question can be so distorted is... incredible. How does (as stated by the thread starter) "initial fear and nervousness" in a new shooter equate to : Phobia! Irrationality! sic Unredeemable character! and / or theories on "emersion? therapy " and tales of sobbing students who witnessed, as children; suicide attempts! and horrendous murders! with firearms involved? Then the helpful comments digress into arguements over the semantics of respect vs fear and then tools vs users of tools etc., etc., on and on.
Good grief! Take a breath...
Doesn't anyone here remember the first time they shot a firearm? If you can honestly say that you weren't a little nervous and apprehensive (fearful), then you must have been, and perhaps still are, brain dead.
That's ALL this guy is talking about... nothing more. So far there hasn't been much useful advice given out here, just a bunch of rants and psychobabble. So right or wrong, here's my two cents worth... it cant be any worse than what's already been posted.
Smarts,---------------------------------------------------------
Provide each of your students with 500 rounds. Take them to the range. Instruct them in safe weapons procedures. Tell them to load and make ready. Tell them to SHOOT! If they ask, "At what?" Tell them, "Anything! It's a field day!" Shoot rocks, trees, cans. Hell, shoot up into the air! Shoot slow or fast (everybody likes fast!) Tell 'em to shoot Gangsta-style if they wish. For the more bloodthirsty, tell them to shoot at ferral dogs or rabbits (there's plenty of 'em "over there", right?)
The point is, let 'em have fun... no pressure... let 'em get their guns off... They won't be timid after that, and then, at their next session, the training can begin.
Glenn E. Meyer
10-19-2004, 08:49
Sigh - this is the real world and as Vicki Farnham and other well respected female writers who are shooters and professionals - you sometimes have to deal with folk who want to shoot a gun for personal or professional reason but have some real issues.
Some have been assaulted, seen bad things, etc. in the past and thus have some psychological sequelae. It is well documented that this happens to big strong MEN.
It's nice to have a tantrum but that's not useful. A trainer should be able to deal with and evaluate a mild performance anxiety and know that he or she might be seeing something deeper.
Ok I'm breathing. I think teaching a student that a gun is a tool and nothing more is important. I think determining the source of the fear is also important. Obviously some of us think a little deeper than others.
Originally posted by GoGoGophers
Amazing. How a simple, straightforward question can be so distorted is... incredible. How does (as stated by the thread starter) "initial fear and nervousness" in a new shooter equate to : Phobia! Irrationality! sic Unredeemable character! and / or theories on "emersion? therapy " and tales of sobbing students who witnessed, as children; suicide attempts! and horrendous murders! with firearms involved? Then the helpful comments digress into arguements over the semantics of respect vs fear and then tools vs users of tools etc., etc., on and on.
Good grief! Take a breath...
Doesn't anyone here remember the first time they shot a firearm? If you can honestly say that you weren't a little nervous and apprehensive (fearful), then you must have been, and perhaps still are, brain dead.
That's ALL this guy is talking about... nothing more. So far there hasn't been much useful advice given out here, just a bunch of rants and psychobabble. So right or wrong, here's my two cents worth... it cant be any worse than what's already been posted.
Smarts,---------------------------------------------------------
Provide each of your students with 500 rounds. Take them to the range. Instruct them in safe weapons procedures. Tell them to load and make ready. Tell them to SHOOT! If they ask, "At what?" Tell them, "Anything! It's a field day!" Shoot rocks, trees, cans. Hell, shoot up into the air! Shoot slow or fast (everybody likes fast!) Tell 'em to shoot Gangsta-style if they wish. For the more bloodthirsty, tell them to shoot at ferral dogs or rabbits (there's plenty of 'em "over there", right?)
The point is, let 'em have fun... no pressure... let 'em get their guns off... They won't be timid after that, and then, at their next session, the training can begin.
GoGoGophers
10-25-2004, 22:20
Taking the time as an instructor to evaluate and work with a particular student's unique needs due to some extraordinary psychological event that has impared the trainee's ability to function as a shooter is an admirable trait.
However, consider at least, the possibility that the initial question was unrelated to the above mentioned students with "special" psychological needs, but rather (as the thread starter definitely indicated) directed toward the more generalized population of newbys who are simply hesitant... and who may not benefit from the added confusion brought about by well intentioned deep thinkers.
K.I.S.S. (A deep concept in itself)
Nice post. When I read, "who show initial fear and nervousness on the range and in dry fire."
it seemed to me that the instructor must determine the "why" of it(to some degree) so that he can choose the right methods for each student. If it's just the normal stuff then no problem but if not then the instructor might need to refer the student to more appropiate help.
Yes the simplest level of the required complexity is probably the best.
Arc Angel
10-26-2004, 12:42
;Q I’ve had occasion to train students, both, in a dojo and on a firing line. Apprehension is OK; that’s something an instructor can work with; but, ‘fear’ - in the true sense of the word – is impossible to overcome.
Some people seem to have an almost, ‘natural instinct’ to hesitate or go into, ‘brain lock’ that effectively prevents them from ever becoming, either, truly reliable or lethal when the SHTF. Others are prone to become easily confused and will demonstrate a peculiar tendency to make incorrect decisions when under stress.
(I don't know what to say about those individuals I've met who are incurably uncoordinated. Sure, they're physically hopeless; but, you never know: Some of them might turn out to be great politicians!)
I don’t think any of this, necessarily, makes someone a bad person – at least not until a partner gets killed. However, like so many other things in life, it’s necessary for each of us to know what he is, or is not, competent to attempt. A student who is deathly afraid of guns, or is easily confused during personal confrontation may make a great administrator or judicial advocate. While you may not trust someone like this to properly back you up in a gun fight, you might find this same individual’s services more than satisfactory inside of a courtroom or jail. :cool:
Originally posted by Yeager
I would suggest they consider a career in either the foodservice or janitorial industries. They will NEVER be good cops and should do your community the service of looking for alternative employment.
You are my hero!
Stay safe buddy!
This isn't exactly the same thing, but it is related.
I've never been afraid of guns, but I was afraid of table saws for the longest time. It stemed from watching a fellow student, a teenage girl, slice off two of her fingers when I was 12. It didn't help any when my across the street neighbor sliced off four of his fingers a couple years later.
I've never been a real "handy" person and I developed a real aversion to power tools after that. I hated every minute of HS shop class.
What finally got me over it was when I wanted to build a replica Medieval crossbow a few years ago. I had an experienced crossbow builder show me how and work with me on the project and all it took was some good instruction on how to use the power tools safely and efficently, and then some practice using them, to get me over my "irrational" fear. Without that determination to complete the project, and the realization that I needed to be comfortable with those tools to do so, I wouldn't have gotten over it though.
I still treat all power tools with more then a healthy respect, but I'm no longer irrationally afraid of them. Cautiously paranoid maybe, but not scared.
Arc Angel
10-27-2004, 06:54
I still treat all power tools with more then a healthy respect, but I'm no longer irrationally afraid of them. Cautiously paranoid maybe, but not scared.
;Q That's OK, Rob. I worked my way through most of high school and part of college on a construction framing crew. I was always afraid of those damned circular saws; and, during those days, I met several other carpenters who were missing one digit or another. (The way crew members handled those saws I wasn't really surprised.) I always thought that if I didn't get, 'bit' by a saw, then, I'd probably be electrocuted by those crappy extension cords we used to use.
I think it must have been my memories of, 'Three fingers Graham' that kept me out of trouble. (The day I met him I held out my right-hand to shake; and, then, I realized that he really couldn't.) The sad part about, ‘Three Fingers’ was that he ultimately lost something like 5 or 6 fingers: one, two, or three at a time. I was present at two of these incidents. The experience leaves you, somewhere, between shock and amusement. Part of you wants to laugh and part of you wants to cry. (It’s kind’ a like reading one of these Glock calamity threads: ‘I never thought it would happen to me – but it did!’ etc., etc., etc. … )
I’ve, also, got two bullet scars on my own body. (Neither self-inflicted) I honestly believe that it’s a very good thing to have a, ‘healthy paranoia’ (As you say) about the use of ALL firearms. Quite frankly I’m much more concerned about shooting with one of these, ‘bulletproof pistoleros’ than I am about someone who’s, something of, a pain because he’s extra careful. All things considered it’s better to be a little paranoid about guns than it is to feel bulletproof! ;)
Back in the early 90s, a really good friend of mine asked me to try to train his Wife with Pistols; she wanted to join a police dept;
He said she would not let him show her anything, and she was physically frightened of his guns!
I arranged to meet her at the range, just her and I, when she arrived I was sat at a table with a Glock 17 in total bits!!
She had brought two coffees, so we chatted and drank our coffees, after a while I showed her the dissembled firing pin assembly! Sat in a lid from a jam jar, the parts, not me! The other parts were spread all over the place.
A hole in the table was an assembly aid, if the FP assembly is a mystery to you, suffice to say, it has two half collets that require some manual dexterity to complete the process of assembly.
One try and she had the pieces into a completed assembly! Showed her the reverse bit! No problems! We did this with all of parts, with detailed description of the function of said assemblies, and parts, the component parts of a cartridge was examined also, with the bit from my lecture on how a cartridge worked being inserted.
Ear muffs, and safety glasses were described, and examined at length, safe direction was explained, the bullet trap was also toured, and bits of bullets were looked at, and thrown by hand at the backstop.
We then took the Glock 17 and stripped it down, and reassembled a couple more times, showed her how to put a holster on, and we went into dry fire from the holster.
Her first two shots were two inch apart at 5 yds!
On entering the Police Academy two months later she had shot two of my classes, and done well, out of a class of 31 she was mostly second, sometimes first, her rival had been a Police Officer in an other jurisdiction for 5 years before arriving at the Ontario Police College.
This worked for me. Keep Safe.
Bayoucritter
10-27-2004, 20:57
You need to build their confidence that they can control the gun.
For new shooters I demonstrate by holding my G22 with only my thumb and trigger finger and fire off a round to show them while the gun has kick it will not fly out of my hands. Then I tell them to imagine how much more control they will have when they have both hands wrapped around the gun. Convincing in the early stages will go a long way towards overcoming the fear.
deutscheglocker
10-28-2004, 18:17
Brit,
I like it.
I wonder if I can get coffee like that. :)
DG
DragonRider
10-28-2004, 18:28
I teach new women shooters with the following scenario.
Have you ever played softball?
Most say yes.
Have you ever got a hard hit or thrown ball in a mit. Most say yes.
I say then that is at most what you will/would feel with 99 percent of all handguns. 22's are like using a tap hammer.
At the range, they say, yes it is a bit like softball. I reply, its the unknown facts that you worry about, but seeing people catching balls to your right and left tells you its going to be ok. Same psychology with a gun.
HTH
John
Deaf Smith
10-28-2004, 20:06
Whoa. Gang, don't tell them to cut and run without a try.
Now how many of you have seen people who were really afraid to learn how to drive a car? Well? Did you tell them to walk?
Now with CHL classes, everyone there wanted to shoot, but in PADI, scuba, I have seen people panic even while just on their back in a swimming pool. Did we kick them out? No. Most took a but of coaching and positive verbial reenforcement. We had to keep telling them, softly, to breath naturaly, not "IF YOU HOLD YOUR BREATH YOUR LUNGS WILL BURST UNDERWATER!". See, one would be a bit consearned but not frightened if I said to just breath naturaly underwater, but to tell them they will DIE, and DIE PAINFULLY if they f-up, well, I might quit to if I was new.
I suggest at your department you have a special class for those who are more than just a bit nervious with weapons (otherwise it will take up lots of time you really need to spend on the others.) In that class you can take more time with them. If they still can't hack it after that, then maybe they are not cut out for work were weapons might be used.
Deaf
Originally posted by Yeager
I would suggest they consider a career in either the foodservice or janitorial industries. They will NEVER be good cops and should do your community the service of looking for alternative employment.
Just like any instructor who starts with a comment like that has no place teaching people. ;Q
Just to expand on this thread, this is a copy of an email I sent to another user in regard to this thread.
I've come to know this kind of attitude all too well! You get people who already have their stuff together and really just need minor pointers by an instructor, or otherwise just left alone to do their own thing. The instructor, seeing already capable people do their thing, then pat themself on the back for the excellent result they had absolutely no part in developing.
Then comes along someone with no tactical background and needs an instructor to point them in the right direction, then all of a sudden the instructor is faced with people who 'just can't be taught!' The problem is not that people can't be taught, but that 90% of instructors out there don't have the first freaking clue how to develop that foundation that turns people into 'gun people'!
The alledged instructors who posted on that thread may have well have just come out and blatently said 'I don't know how to train people', because that is what it all comes down to. It is no coincidence that it is usually the same people complaining about why police are such crap shots and how it is only the 'gun people' who do well, but do nothing to rectify the situation. It is the non gun people who need and can benefit the most from solid instruction, yet these self proclaimed guru's seem completely incapable of providing that initial foundation that is so critical to developing the novices into 'gun people'!
The whole thing just ****s me no end!
It should be the instructors primary function to create a training environment that allows the average Joe to become a tactically minded individual, and not just take the already tactically minded, then show them how they could do what they are currently doing differently! Anyone can take a trained person and tweak around their edges, but there are very few instructors out there who can take someone with no tactical background to speak of, then develop a solid foundation.
The reason so many police and military personnel are not tactically minded is precisely because the overwhelming majority of instructors have no ability or interest in developing foundational skills among the inexperienced! It is just soooo much easier to take the already qualified and show them something flash than it is to develop foundational skills in the 90% of people who make up the buld of police and military.
Some of the best operators I have come across have been some of the worst instructors as a result. They can take people with the attributes needed to be tactically aware already in place, then give them the technical skills to put those attributes to some use, but there are very few instructors out there who know how to inculcate and then further develop those attributes in the first place!
The over use of mindset is a classic example! The importance of mindset is heard so often it now comes across as a cliche, yet how many threads do you see on the internet on how you develop that mindset in the first instance? This thread alone reveals just how many people out there are completely defeatist in this regard!
Solid foundational skills in close quarter fighting and firearms are precisely the type of vehicle needed to develop tactically minded individuals, yet it is the very thing being denied to all those who don't already have those attributes or skills in place to begin with.
Has anyone wondered why so many police seem to be against any kind of tactical training? When under trained people undergo their firearms qualifications (and lets face it, outside of elite units the average po po or soldier really is undertrained!), fully knowing they don't really know what they are doing and will struggle to pass, and more to the point also know there is nobody out there who will be prepared to properly instruct them to get that foundation right, but will ***** about how bad they are, do you think that environment will encourage or discourage people to become more tactically aware?
Most instructors out there create a training environment that turns people away from wanting further training, then can't work out why more people don't train more! It is like all those threads you see 'such-and-such department gives out free training ammuinition, yet people still won't shoot!' Why would most people bother when they are given no direction in how they should be training properly to start with?
It ain't rocket science! Fundamentals are everything in creating the tactically minded, yet that is often the most badly overlooked portion of training.
It all comes down to the saying you see pop up every once in a while.
"The right kind of figher can make anything work!"
People need to spend less time concerning themselves with the latest ubergadgets and techniques, and more time on how to develop the attributes that will turn the average Joe into 'the right kind of fighter'. It doesn't happen by accident folks! It all comes down to how you train.
Arc Angel
10-29-2004, 11:14
Originally posted by ARH
Just like any instructor who starts with a comment like that has no place teaching people. ;Q
:) Now hold on a minute there, mate! That Fifth Column forum you moderate is kind of interesting. I really wish you’d stated your source reference for those FBI knifing statistics you quote, though – If true that’s very useful (even a little startling) information. In all honesty I think Yeager deserves to be, ‘cut some slack’ on this one. Granted his comment is a bit brusque; however, it’s not fair to take him so heavily to task; and to do it on both sides of the globe - well! I’m sure the world is full of instructors of one kind or another who, at some point in their experience, have concluded that certain students are truly hopeless. (I know I have; and I consider myself to be patience and sublimated ego, personified!)
I’ll give you that not everyone is able to teach. I’ll, also, agree that some great gunmen and martial artists make poor teachers, too; but in that, ‘universe of students’ who might show up at your door, IT IS NECESSARY for each one of them to bring something, IMPERATIVE, to the doorstep with him. In my own experience that something is, PASSIONATE DESIRE! If desire exceeds, both, emotional anxiety and concomitant physical hesitation, then, that student is a suitable candidate for instruction; however, some students (And, yes, I’ve met them.) have more complex personal issues to deal with – Issues that, short of withholding food and sleep for extended periods of time, NO instructor is going to be able to overcome.
Consider this psycho-physical mélange: A student with a long history of being physically clumsy and uncoordinated at sports, suddenly, shows up at your door one day and requests; ‘I’m tired of being picked on at school; I want to learn how to fight.’ Well, in the process of teaching this, ‘sad sack’ how to deflect blows and make a few effective replies, the instructor discovers to his dismay that he’s confronted by a young man who is (1) incredibly uncoordinated, (2) overly anxious, (3) emotionally passive, (4) mentally hesitant, (5) unwilling to accept physical pain, and, (6) while he has an intellectual wish to defend himself, he lacks the REAL DESIRE to make it happen.
What you would have in this training scenario is, AN INTELLECTUAL IMPOSSIBLILITY RATHER THAN A STUDENT TRAINING PROBLEM. Now, even though this young man’s father may be one of your best friends as well as one of the (demonstrably) best pistoleros you’ve ever known, tell me: ‘What can you do to help this kid?’ Tear him down mentally and emotionally; take him back to the, ‘mentality of the womb’ and start building him up again? HARDLY! The only viable answer is to go to school with him and throw 1 or 2 of his protagonists out a window because, other than this, there’s no way that kid is going to resolve his problems with peer group, social confrontation.
Then there’s that guy who, perhaps largely because of health issues, can’t hold a gun steady, see clearly, or get over a really wicked trigger flinch. On top of this he’s something of an emotional coward and loud sounds tend to unnerve him. Can any firearms’ instructor teach this sort of individual how to unlearn habits that, even, the US army was unable to correct and become a competent gunman? I DON’T THINK SO! The question, then, arises; ‘Do similar sorts of individuals apply for employment as police officers?’ The honest answer has to be; ‘Sure they do!’ A few, even, make it through the academy and out onto the street. I’ve met one or two of them, here, in the USA; and, 'people being people' I have to suspect that you've got them, 'downunder' too.
Now I’ve never met Chuck Yeager; I’ve corresponded with him on the internet a few times; I’ve encountered several people who’ve trained with him; and I’ve, often, read his opinions on martial topics. I’ll grant you, ‘Mr. Sunshine’ he ain’t; but, make no mistake, Yeager is a highly qualified instructor whom I have to believe you, yourself, would be fortunate to train with. If Yeager wishes to express his disgust over the occasional, ‘impossible student’ - fine! These, 'educational nuisances’ do exist.
On the other hand I, actually, like and respect your professional attitude. You are to be commended for your obvious patience and willingness to work with, ‘the occupationally challenged’. Keep doing it long enough, though; and I am positive that, sooner or later, you’ll come to share some part of Yeager’s opinion: Certain students, just, don’t have it AND never will. I’ve said it before: There ARE other gunmen you’d never want to have to rely on for backup in a fight.
I read a number of the threads on your website: Useful stuff, but, how about cutting us Yanks some slack – We usually end up fighting on the same side of the battlefield, anyway. Either the world is getting smaller and smaller, or the internet is getting larger and larger. So why not take the time to get to know us better before taking one of our best instructors to task. ;)
Rusty Shackleford
10-29-2004, 14:32
Originally posted by Yeager
I would suggest they consider a career in either the foodservice or janitorial industries. They will NEVER be good cops and should do your community the service of looking for alternative employment.
Just like someone could never become a good pilot because they were nervous the first time the instructor said "you have the plane" and let go of the yoke... I love the self-serving logic. ;g
I run a successful training company. After you guys get one we will talk again.
Keep in mind we are talking about COPS and not students in general. I have trained a LOT of cops and I even train Instructors at a lot of Police Academies. Feel free to contact the Memphis Police Academy Firearms Training Unit and ask how much of my program they put DIRECTLY into their academy and in-service training (1750+ Officers).
My initial post was NOT about my ability to teach or a students ability to learn about firearms. It was about a Police Recruit who has an illogical fear of guns. It wasn't about his/her ability to shoot or not to shoot.
Police organizations take steps to weed out any Warriors who may apply. In the end all we have are Academy classes full of sheep who have NEVER shot a gun, NEVER been in a fight, and have no practical life experience.
As far as my training goes I have HUNDREDS of students right here on Glocktalk. Ask THEM about my training.
I have a 100% refund policy for anyone who is not satisfied with my training. I have trained thousands of folks since 1996 when I started my compnay and NOT ONE student has ever asked for a refund.
I stand by my original statement and until you are BACKED UP on a hot call by one of these USELESS new age "Armed Social Workers" you have NO IDEA what you are even talking about.
Until then why don't you guys keep your mouths shut?
Mrs.Cicero
10-29-2004, 19:37
Well, my first response to the original question starting this post was "why on EARTH would anyone with no firearms experience apply to be a LEO? And if this person really thought they did want to be a LEO, why would they not go GET SOME FIREARMS TRAINING/EXPERIENCE before they wasted their time/$/energy/attention (and that of their instructors) at the Academy? Doesn't ANYONE believe in preparing themselves to succeed anymore?"
My second response is that if I were a LEO, I'd want a gun nut for a partner, somone who just plain enjoys practicing and improving his skills, because people who are scared of, or "emotionally uncomfortable" with ANY piece of their equipment WON'T PRACTICE more than the absolute minimum necessary to qualify. And I sure wouldn't want the absolute minimum backing me up.
My third response was that when I first started shooting (at the ripe old age of 25), I was scared of the gun blowing up in my hand. Or breaking in some other fashion than I wouldn't be able to fix. Cure: find out how it works, disassemble it, put it back together, realize it ain't likely to happen, practice clearance drills until they are reflexive, witness husband blow up MY Glock in his hand with bad factory ammo, realize no one got hurt much (he did say "ow."), realize that it had been years since that particular fear had been felt, laugh, keep on practicing. I guess my point is that it matters exactly WHAT students are afraid of, because it is easier to overcome some fears/concerns with rational thought and practice than others.
I totally approve of people scared of guns trying to overcome that by getting some training, I'm happy to take them to the range, and ease them into it (I do think one-on-one is a better way to do this than in a class). I just don't think that anyone who hasn't already overcome their firearm-related fears should be wasting my tax dollars trying to do it at the Academy.
Mrs.C
RealLiberal
10-29-2004, 21:25
I have never been in LE (nor will I ever be, *shudder*), but as I was the 'packing' half of a jewelry transportation group for a year and change I can give you my experience on learning guns. The biggest thing that bothered me was all the dang noise they make, and the concern that you could accidentially set them off. Being trained to shoot and carry by several people (most notably two of my uncles) I eventually just got used to the fact that the gun was not going to fire itself, and the noise just became so routine it didn't bother me. But I guess I'm not really a good example of gun fear, I just don't tolerate nearby explosions well.
Deaf Smith
10-29-2004, 21:45
Yeager,
I can understand someone who is really afraid would slow down a class and thus one would want to get them out of that class, but, if they still want to become LEOs, and are willing to keep trying to lose or control their fear of weapons, then I would give them a chance.
In WW2 both Boyton and Robert Johnson almost washed out flight school becuase they were very shaky pilots (but became top aces.)
Now fear of weapons is more that not getting the hang of flying but teaching recruits today is not as pressureious as in WW2. There is no reason you cannot go a bit extra and have a class, with maybe psychologist, that can help them overcome their handicap. I know some still will not be able to cope but some will.
Since we are not in some hard pressed war where we cannot afford the time to help some that can be helped, I suggest giving them a shot at a special class just for those who are hoplophobic. Just look at it as recruitment of the NRA.
Deaf
G. Gunman
10-29-2004, 22:25
Now fear of weapons is more that not getting the hang of flying but teaching recruits today is not as pressureious as in WW2. There is no reason you cannot go a bit extra and have a class, with maybe psychologist, that can help them overcome their handicap. I know some still will not be able to cope but some will.
;Q 'Pressureious'? Kind 'a says it all, doesn't it. There ya go, Yeager, a psychologist in every class to help the, 'slower' students adjust to all the incipient violence! Maybe that psychologist will suggest some form of familiarization technique (Like sucking on a gun barrel) in order to reduce any irrational fears.
Wait, belay that! I think I'll, just, suck on that gun barrel - myself. This way I wont have to read any more of this maudlin, ridiculously compassionate, ‘gun dweeb’ stuff! ;g
Originally posted by Yeager
I run a successful training company. After you guys get one we will talk again.
I don't need to run a school to realise that it is blatently asinine to say the only future for inexperienced gun users is a career cleaning toilets and scraping mildew from tiles.;Q
Have to wonder why bother having instructors at all?
Just another question. Is this the same approach you take when trying to drum up business among police departments?
Police organizations take steps to weed out any Warriors who may apply. In the end all we have are Academy classes full of sheep who have NEVER shot a gun, NEVER been in a fight, and have no practical life experience.
Call me old fashioned, but isn't it your job, and that of the academy, to actually train people so they become qualified?
I mean why bother even having academies if that is the attitude you are going to take?
ARH,
I would AGAIN like to point out this isn't about teaching people to shoot. It is about weeding out folks who shouldn't be cops.
You obviously don't know anything about training Cops. Not good ones anyway. Teaching a sheep how to shoot just means you have sheep that can qualify with a gun. To take someone who is so weak minded and has so little fighting spirit and try to build them into a Warrior is STUPID.
Police Academies need to START with WARRIORS and not dainty little sissys who will never be able to protect themselves or the people in their community.
Are you the person who was afraid from the first post? McDonald's is hiring.
Originally posted by Yeager:
"I would AGAIN like to point out this isn't about teaching people to shoot. It is about weeding out folks who shouldn't be cops.
You obviously don't know anything about training Cops. Not good ones anyway. Teaching a sheep how to shoot just means you have sheep that can qualify with a gun. To take someone who is so weak minded and has so little fighting spirit and try to build them into a Warrior is STUPID.
Police Academies need to START with WARRIORS and not dainty little sissys who will never be able to protect themselves or the people in their community.
Are you the person who was afraid from the first post? McDonald's is hiring."
Excellent post!
As a Patrol Sergeant in the big city, I see officers who fit the above bill every day(the sheep). I usually try to find an assignment for them that will minimize the possibility of them getting themselves or someone else hurt.
Unfortunately, there are so many squirrels and so few cages.
You are most definitely correct in saying that police departments need to start with warriors and not sissies.
It's not so much about being afraid of shooting, as about being afraid of everything.
;z
Actually, it is all about teaching people to shoot. In case you haven't noticed, the poster starting this thread is also from Australia, so trying to get experience in firearms isn't quite the same as what it is in the States, which makes much of what people have posted here as criticisms a little off base at best.
That also means there is a need to take non gun people and train them! It really is that simple, but clearly beyond your ability. It speaks volumes of your quality as an instructor if you really do think people without experience with guns are automatically "sheep" and "weak minded".
I really can't help but see the irony between what you are saying here and what appears on your website.
We don’t care if you are a Dentist, Navy SEAL, Computer Geek, Concerned Citizen, or Patrolman. No matter what you do for a living, we will always treat you with respect; and you will receive the best training available, regardless of cost. It is our belief that Warriors come from all walks of life and that all Warriors are our brothers.
How much else of what you are pushing is blatent bull****?
Like I said, some people have no place being instructors.
Just in respone to Arc Angels post, which I missed earlier.
I agree on the central importance motivation will play in an instructors ability to develop a student. While there will always be people that will be unable to develop as a result of permanant physical distability, in addition to others who actively refuse to learn, there was absolutely no mention of this in the first post. To go on to say these police recruits are unteachable because they have no experience is such an incredible leap to be beyond all reason!
The Australian population as a whole experiences extremely low gun ownership and use. Aprehensive students dealing with potentially lethal weapons is typically the norm, so for an instructor to say these people are unteachable reveals more on the abilities of that instructor than the students.
I have trained with, and trained some of the most uncoordinated people you could find in martial arts. Barring physical disabilities, coordination can be developed in anyone. All it takes is the incremental development of their movement, joint by joint if need be. IMO this is the best way to go regardless of pre-existing coordination levels in order to prevent bad habbits from developing.
Anxiety is the result of inexperience and uncertainty. Dealing specifically with guns, I've seen people incredibly fearful of guns undergo massive confidence boosts in a matter of days, once they become familiar with how to operate the weapon safely, and learn it isn't about to turn around by itself and shoot them in the face. People here have labeled this an illogical fear, but how does the student know it is illogical untill they receive peoper instruction in the first place?
I have also dealt with people in unarmed fighting who were anxious over the idea of being hit or injured, or just fighting in general. That has included active special forces. It is usually very well placed, typically being the result of the student not knowing how to defend themslves properly. I have come across exceptionally few novices who were not what I would consider to be overly anxious. It is all part of being a novice, and is overcome through decent training and instruction.
I don't think I know what you mean by emotionally passive. Could you elaborate?
Mental hesitancy is an issue at all levels of skill, and is typically the result of two factors: inexperience and/or a poor decision making process. Inexperience is basically linked up with what I have already posted. People will e hesitant when they don't think they are good enoguh. The solution is more and better training, not defeatism from the instructors.
Poor decision making processes is linked up with two issues; either not having any options for a given situation, or having too many and not being able to choose. I have found the easiest way to overcome this, particularly when dealing with novices, is to simply give them a strait forward game plan they are to run when in a confrontation. When ever they are in a situation causing doubt, there is no doubt, they will carry out that one game plan to end it, containing very specific tools and tactics, so there are no real choises that need to be made.
If someone is refusing to accept pain at all, there is a problem because they are actively refusing to develop. If it is just a matter of they can't accept pain, that is just a matter of a gradual aclimatisation to contact, the same way people gradually aclimatise and develop themselves in physical training. Nobody starts out running by entering in a marathon.
So long as an intellectual will is there and no prohibitive physical injuries, everything else can be developed if the instructor is capable. You would probably be supprised how many world class fighters there are out there who started off with incredibly humble beginnings! That does leave the question of whether for situations such as training people to be police, where the is a time limit to be adhered to, there will be enough time to train people to a necessary standard, however if an instructor can't overcome "initial fear and nervousness" in the average Joe out there and turn them into capable fighters, they have no place instructing.
Originally posted by Yeager
ARH,
I would AGAIN like to point out this isn't about teaching people to shoot. It is about weeding out folks who shouldn't be cops.
You obviously don't know anything about training Cops. Not good ones anyway. Teaching a sheep how to shoot just means you have sheep that can qualify with a gun. To take someone who is so weak minded and has so little fighting spirit and try to build them into a Warrior is STUPID.
Police Academies need to START with WARRIORS and not dainty little sissys who will never be able to protect themselves or the people in their community.
Are you the person who was afraid from the first post? McDonald's is hiring.
I'll drink to that! ;Y ;D ;Y
ARH writes: I don't need to run a school to realise that it is blatently asinine to say the only future for inexperienced gun users is a career cleaning toilets and scraping mildew from tiles
This is a complete strawman argument on your part as Yeager NEVER said or implied this.
Where did he say INEXPERIENCED GUNHANDLERS?
Please show us the post.
The issue here is about training people who have an extreme phobia about firearms to go into a public profession where they may have to use firearms in a life and death situation where other people's lives hand in the balance. It is not about someone who has no experience with guns or is a bit nervous with them.
Not everyone has the right mindset and constitution to be in law enforcement where they will have to proceed into dangerous situations.
Originally posted by V42
This is a complete strawman argument on your part as Yeager NEVER said or implied this.
Where did he say INEXPERIENCED GUNHANDLERS?
Please show us the post.
The issue here is about training people who have an extreme phobia about firearms to go into a public profession where they may have to use firearms in a life and death situation where other people's lives hand in the balance. It is not about someone who has no experience with guns or is a bit nervous with them.
V42
Without getting into the Yeager/ARH punchup, the first post by Garry SMART was how instructors should deal with students exhibiting initial fear or nervousness when handling firearms. The subject of "training people who have an extreme phobia about firearms" is no doubt worthy of a separate thread. But how about we address Garry's concerns in this thread rather than hijack it and make it into something it was never intended to be.
BTW are there any police trainers out there who have not trained new police and found some of them initially apprehensive around guns.
Yeager,
I've got no argument about the fact that police departments need warriors and not sheep. The bottom line in this day and age is that in a lot of cases it's not what we get, but as trainers we still have to deal with them. I've been doing this since 1977 so I guess I've at least got some idea of how things are changing in the hiring process - whether I like it or not!
ARH,
I welcome the day we meet so you can say those things to my face. Until then why don't you shut up.
Originally posted by MC
[B]Without getting into the Yeager/ARH punchup, the first post by Garry SMART was how instructors should deal with students exhibiting initial fear or nervousness when handling firearms.
I think we are hopelessly mired in semantics. I believe what someone described as "initial fear and nervousness," Yeager and others may have interpreted as 'extreme fear," and thus made his comments.
But he most certainly did not say or suggest: "the only future for inexperienced gun users is a career cleaning toilets and scraping mildew from tiles" as ARH posted. There is a vast difference between someone who is merely inexperienced and someone who is nervous or even terrified.
Given Yeager's experience and background as displayed on
http://www.warriormindset.com/instructors/TRI-Yeager.htm, I would certainly pay attention to his oppinion about who would make good cops and who would not, whether or not I agreed with it.
I've got no argument about the fact that police departments need warriors and not sheep. The bottom line in this day and age is that in a lot of cases it's not what we get.
I fear it is exactly as you describe, that departments are limited in the material they get in the new people who join the force. And unless any of those rookies have a glaring problem that screams out, there may be little that anyone can do about it.
V42
Excellent post.
Your points are well taken. I have a lot of respect for Yeager, I just think this thread has strayed a long way from it's original intent
regards
Mark
ARH: I think you have let your mouth overload your ass on this one. I have taken numerous class's from numerous different instructors. Yeagers way of teaching is nothing short of magical. He can take someone who may not have the best firearm handling skills and show them very simple but effect changes that realy further their skill. Being an excellent shooter has NOTHING to do with being a WARRIOR. Being a WARRIOR has everything to do with MINDSET. Thats something that comes from within. It can be brought out in most people, but some got it and some don't. Being able to shoot a stationary target at 21ft is one thing, being able to stay alive in a gunfight is another. You have to be aware of your enviroment, the people around you, and how you will deal with it should the SHTF. I can honestly say I am much better prepared to defend my life and the lives of my family and friends after taking his class. Thats being a WARRIOR. Yes WARRIORS come from all walks of life, DR's lawyers, "insurance agents", plumbers, mechanics. How you chose to use your instinct is up to you.
If your scared of guns, you shouldnt be a cop. PERIOD! Notice I didn't say new to guns, or inexperienced, I said scared. In my opinion, a cop thats not a WARRIOR will get themselves or their partner killed or hurt. YMMV
TP
G. Gunman
10-30-2004, 21:17
;P Arghhh! What can I say? In the world in which I grew up and have had to live a significant portion of my life, either:
YOU CAME UP TO SPEED, REAL FAST, OR BAD THINGS WOULD HAPPEN TO YOU EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.
Sure I suppose with enough patience, empathy, and insightful understanding, even, a troop of Girl Scouts could be turned into an effective SEAL team. In the alternative you could, also, start out with a group of aggressive athletic young men in order to accomplish the exact same goal with much less effort, and in far less time.
Maybe this pragmatism on our part is the reason our forefathers were able to kick Great Britain, the Hell, out and (at least so far) get to keep our guns. You guys, on the other hand, are still largely disarmed subjects. Has the thought ever occurred to you that; ‘Maybe you’re so badly confused because someone is poisoning your drinking water?’ Give it a rest, mate! ;g
G's Gunman
Funnily enough, I grew up in a very similar environment, so what? That was then, this is now.
<<Sure I suppose with enough patience, empathy, and insightful understanding, even, a troop of Girl Scouts could be turned into an effective SEAL team. In the alternative you could, also, start out with a group of aggressive athletic young men in order to accomplish the exact same goal with much less effort, and in far less time.>>
I guess you've never been an LEO, or at least not recently. I love listening to this wishful crap about how only warriors should be allowed into law enforcement.
FWIW I agree. But guess what, that ain't the way it is any more. We get so much PC pushed down our throats nowadays that the very attributes that make for a good officer are deliberately screened out during selection.
OK, let's see now, where did Political Correctness come from? Oh that's right, American universities like Berkely. And despite that you've got the hide to ask if we're so badly confused because someones poisoning our drinking water? Also, what pragmatism? You think US LE isn't as screwed up as anywhere else because of the way the administrations play politics with their mens lives.
Congratulations on kicking the British out and God knows they needed it but again, so what? That was how many hundred years ago? What's it got to do with the creeping poison that's infecting our societies now. I'd give a lot to get rid of some of the types I've seen in LE, but baby, It ain't gunna happen. This is the new order and you either sit in your rocking chair saying, "this ain't the way it was when I started", or you deal with it.
RANT OFF
G. Gunman
11-02-2004, 07:49
Originally posted by MC
Congratulations on kicking the British out and God knows they needed it but again, so what? That was how many hundred years ago? What's it got to do with the creeping poison that's infecting our societies now. I'd give a lot to get rid of some of the types I've seen in LE, but baby, It ain't gonna happen. This is the new order and you either sit in your rocking chair saying, "this ain't the way it was when I started", or you deal with it.
RANT OFF
;Q Well, I'm glad to be able to help you get this, 'off your chest'! I couldn't help, but, notice that you and I are saying pretty much the same thing - only in a slightly different way! Speaking of, ‘hiding’, I'd be blind if I didn't notice that you, also, neglect to mention, ‘Where’ you’re from? By any chance it wouldn't be ... . Would it? ;f
Hey! At least, now, that we're off this ridiculous, overly compassionate, ‘gun dweeb’ stuff, maybe, we can start making some real progress with this thread. (I kind 'a suspect I might even feel comfortable going into a real gunfight with you as backup, too. Can I be any nicer?) ;)
Originally posted by G. Gunman
;Q Well, I'm glad to be able to help you get this, 'off your chest'! I couldn't help, but, notice that you and I are saying pretty much the same thing - only in a slightly different way! Speaking of, ‘hiding’, I'd be blind if I didn't notice that you, also, neglect to mention, ‘Where’ you’re from? By any chance it wouldn't be ... . Would it? ;f
Hey! At least, now, that we're off this ridiculous, overly compassionate, ‘gun dweeb’ stuff, maybe, we can start making some real progress with this thread. (I kind 'a suspect I might even feel comfortable going into a real gunfight with you as backup, too. Can I be any nicer?) ;)
Actually I do feel better, thank you for asking. Yes, as you have surmised, I am Australian. It's had little to do with hiding BTW, Glock Talk was the first forum I began posting on some four years ago and I was a little wary at the time. If you care to compare the information on our profiles, it actually says a lot more than yours which at present basically just tells me that you're breathing. If you're terminally bored you can have a look on the Police Policy Studies Council website (http://theppsc.org), there's a very basic bio on me there.
It would be nice to see the thread return to it's original intent.
As for the gunfight thing. I think I'd need to know you a little better - ok, a lot better. :)
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