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Scatch Maroo
09-28-2004, 22:20
Is overpenetration of a BG an issue with a 10MM?

Scatch Maroo

G33
09-28-2004, 23:03
Depends.
What your target is.
Load you use.
Mike has stuff that runs the whole range.

Misses are the real problem.;)

Scatch Maroo
09-29-2004, 00:25
I noticed that some of you carry concealed, and I recall many an example of how many odd objects a 10mm could penetrate before being halted, and so I was just curious how likely it is that you'd shoot a bad guy and have the bullet go in and out and on to hit something else.

Scatch Maroo

noway
09-29-2004, 00:41
good post.


I have shot quite a few thick hogs with a 10mm. I have yet to recover any bullet. This was with pretty much the common 180/200gr SD bullet and with a few being slow expansion stuff ( XTPs/hardcast/Corbon Penetrators ). I know the hogs are 100% equal to a human but they are close to real world expectations.

If you have one of the hot nuclear loads offer by company X in a heavy weight, I would think overpenetration could be an issue. I'm I concern with it? NO!

if you feel overpenetration is a concern , then get a 40sw "like" performer and don't worry about it.


just my 2 cents thought.......


This message was present and approve by noway
;f

bambihunter
09-29-2004, 03:26
I carry DoubleTaps 135 grain loads. While I haven't got to test it on anything other than paper, Mike assures us it blows up when hitting anything of substance. This is actually why I went with that load anyway. I had moved into a subdivision where the houses are close together and I didn't want it to go through my walls and hurting a neighbor yet I wanted plenty of power discharged into the bad guy if needed...

That's what I personally love about the 10mm. It has got to be the most versatile auto cartridge available. What else can you load up this hot, yet load down so mild in an auto cartridge?

RMTactical
09-29-2004, 03:32
Depends on a couple of things. Load, distance, weight of bullet, how much tissue it impacts, expansion...

Rule10b5
09-29-2004, 09:25
Never done penetration tests with 10mm. With other calibers, though, I've found that unless you're using a heavyweight or bonded bullet once you pass a certain velocity threshold, you're a lot less likely to get overpenetration because the bullet expands like mad or just splatters in the target.

I'd be more worried standing behind a BG that got shot with a 230 gr. .45 ACP Hydrashok at 800-900 fps than a BG shot with a 135 gr. Nosler going at 1600 fps. By the same measure, a 135 gr. Nosler going at 1000 fps scares me more in terms of overpenetration. Just my opinion, of course.

Tazz10m
09-29-2004, 13:44
"Overpenetration" is not so much a function of the guns 'caliber' as it is a function of bullet design/shape combined with velocity and weight.

Simply put, a heavy fast pointy FMJ has the most potential to 'zip right thru' because it has the least amount of surface area so it has the least amount of resistance to stopping. A flat or hollow 'pointed' light bullet, is the, for obvious reasons. The faster, lighter, and more 'hollow' the bullet is, the least likely to penetrate, and the more likely it is to 'explode' or 'fragment' or 'deflect' on impact.

When shooting a 'body', there is not much choice as to what a particular bullet is actually going to hit. So, the bullet may zip though, or stop, or something in between. A bullet that passes all the way though and does the most amount of damage on the way is going to be the one with the best 'stopping potential'. Bullets don't have 'stopping power', that is a myth. YOU have the 'power' of decision, and that is no myth.

Bullets that expand create more frontal area after impact and so if they do pass all the way thru a body they are not likely to do much damage to 'another' after because they have already lost so much velocity and are more likely to 'slap' when they hit another object or body and so are less likely to penetrate a 'second body' and really cause 'damage', although, they may still 'hurt'...as in 'ouch!'

The 'ideal' bullet, then, would be one that has the best of all worlds for what your target is. It really doesn't matter what is behind a particular 'target' if the primary objective is to 'stop' the 'target'. If you miss, which IS the most common 'problem', you are potentially screwwwed no matter what bullet you use. Keep in mind that you can still hit the target and still miss if the bullet doesn't damage enough 'vitals'. If you don't 'stop' the 'bad guy', he may 'stop' you, and the hostage or 'innocent' is still screwwwwed by the bad guy, one way or another. And so, each shooter really needs to educate themselves on bullet construction, caliber and velocity, hitting the real target, and all the stuff that goes with it.

The point is, don't listen so much to 'tactical experts' and advertising hype. Learn the facts yourself, pick what you think is an ideal combo for getting the job done, and use that particular combo the way it works best. Try to set up your 'backstop', but again, stopping the problem is the key, so you don't get 'stopped'. If your kid is behind the bad guy, you might miss and hit him, so again, overpenetration really doesn't matter, you CAN'T shoot until you have an 'ok' opportunity. When you CAN shoot, 'overpenetration' will be your friend.

So, the moral of the story is that 'overpenetration' problems are really a myth if you are being a responsible gun user. Remember the rule, be sure of your backstop.

Tennessee Slim
09-29-2004, 14:18
Which is more likely to result in the death of you or of an innocent bystander, overpenetration or underpenetration?

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

-- Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
by Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA
July 14, 1989

Tazz10m
09-29-2004, 15:41
Originally posted by Tennessee Slim
Which is more likely to result in the death of you or of an innocent bystander, overpenetration or underpenetration?

The answer is 'missing' the target.

Overpenetration is a myth.

Complete penetration is your friend.

Underpenetration? You might as well be using a BB gun.

A 'properly' designed hollowpoint driven at a high enough velocity will completely explode the target. Think "Praire dog go 'poof!'". So, there is something to be said for properly 'distributed' energy.

;f

bambihunter
09-29-2004, 15:51
Originally posted by Tazz10m
Think "Praire dog go 'poof!'".

I've got tons of experience and a few pics that perfectly show your description... If anyone wants to see some graphic pics I'll post the link to the pics. ;P

Tito
09-30-2004, 11:41
I agree with Special Agent Patrick.

agtman
09-30-2004, 18:15
Thanks to Tenn.Slim for citing Special Agent Patrick's article before I did:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Be sure to read all the paragraphs under the subheading, "Ammunition Selection Critieria," where he discusses the fiction of "overpenetration" in LE shootings. ;Q

The biggest "problem" in any lethal force encounter - civilian or LE - is MISSING the BG. ;P Not "overpenetration."

Under the stress of the situation, hitting your target COM is really a function of how extensively you've trained/practiced with your chosen 10mm carry load (or its FMJ equivalent).

As I've said before, unlike other cartridges, the 10mm AUTO is a harsh mistress. There's simply no avoiding that if you're going to carrying a "hot" 10mm load for personal SD or duty use, you must put in the time to practice with it regularly to maintain your proficiency, hand-eye coordination and good shooting technique.

http://bren-ten.com/agtman-delta/id6.html

:cool:

Tazz10m
10-01-2004, 13:00
Special Agent Patrick's article does have a lot of valid information, but it is still full of incorrect beliefs.

I could spend a lot of time tearing apart that article and back it all up with established documented fact, but, the amount of time that would take would be prohibitive as doing such things would eat too much into my bill paying ability.

Suffice it to say that "Stopping Potential" (my term) is based on a bullet/load's "Damaging Potential" combined with "Shot Placement". Shot Placement is also a functioning part of Damaging Potential.

Penetration and bullet diameter and velocity and shot placement are all wonderful things, but if not combined properly with "PROJECTILE DESIGN" they are not sufficiantly optimized. Further, a big, heavy, round, blunt,object is not sufficiently optimized for effectiveness if there is not enough energy in the loading/gun/missile to drive it at a velocity sufficient to cause 'effective' damage. This is more than likely why the ancient peoples got away from rocks and went to sharp arrows and spears.

Hunters have known all this from the time of the stone age. Arrows are not just designed with penetration, diameter, velocity, and shot placement in mind. Extensive attention has always been given to projectile design.

No one with any actual experience ever uses a pointy solid bullet or target shaped arrowhead to hunt with, because they will just 'zip' right through and the hole made will just close up behind. Futher, an arrowhead with no cutting ability soon gets slowed by friction on the shaft. A sufficiently large, sharp arrowhead does not so much cause tissue and other destruction as much as it causes damage. Sure you can get lucky with your experience and understanding and ability of 'placing' your shots accurately, but unless that is all you have, more is needed for 'effectiveness'.

Due to the dynamics of what it actually takes to be effective on a particular animal, there are an enormous number of possible variations of what a particular projectile might do. Call it 'luck', or lack thereof, or 'fortune', or unfortune, or whatever, either way, both must be considered when it comes to optimizing effectively. The effect of a properly designed bullet/load almost vaporizing a praire dog is a great example of effectiveness, although, when considering the same use of projectile/load design on a human body that might end up pictured in the newspapers or on the 6:OO news, as well as trying to make a positive ID, well, it might be a little less than 'ideal'.

Where is Osama? Did he get vaporized by a well designed projectile? Maybe! ;f But, how do we prove it? If we could prove it, Bush would look much better to many more people right now, and of course worse to some others.

Does it take at least a .22-250 to consistently explode a praire dog? No. Actually, it could easily be done with a 10mm (or even less) with a properly designed and loaded projectile. As a matter of fact it could be done with even an arrow, if that arrow head was designed right and driven at a sufficient velocity. Should we always try to vaporize our targets? No, of course not, but that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes the way to go, and it also doesn't mean that there isn't some bullet/load combo in between over-reacting by over-doing it and under-reacting by under-doing it that will be effective.

When a 'big game' hunter goes after a rhino he doesn't use a hollowpoint bullet, rather, he uses a bullet that is solid. Does this contradict what i've been saying? No. That bullet being used is big and solid and driven at such a high velocity that when it hits heavy bone the bone explodes and sends sharp hard fragments that cut the hell out of anything but bone in their path. Again, sharp, cutting, projectiles driven at sufficient velocity.

Remember, a knife is also a sharp, cutting, projectile driven at sufficient velocity by the hand...and so is a properly designed hunting spear.

Praire dogs, when exploded by bullets, are exploded by sharp, cutting, projectiles driven at high velocity. In this case, even the air trapped and then released all at once by the hollowpoint becomes a 'cutting projectile' especially when combined with the animals 'fluid'. Think of how a 'water jet' can easily cut meat. Add some 'abrasive' and it will cut even hard steel, stone, ceramic, glass, and almost anything else.

My point is, that people need to design, or pick a design, balanced to get the job done and quit being extremists over-simplifing and over-complicating what it takes to be effective in a shooting. 'Light and fast' is an extreme. 'Heavy and slow' is an extreme. Anything over-complicated is doomed to failure. Anything over-simple is also doomed to failure. There is PLENTY of documented evidence that proves what works best. people just need to quit thinking they are so smart now and so stupid in the past. History is FULL of examples of 'what works'...and what doesn't. Ask Mr. Stoneage Mann, he'll tell you what works. He may be a bit brutal, low tech, and inaccurate about it, but he still knows what it takes to be effective...a simple properly placed projectile that causes sufficiently deep cutting DAMAGE, and preferably one that passes ALL THE WAY THROUGH the animal. How many here know that an American Native's bow and arrows were well enough designed to pass ALL the way THROUGH an elk or even a buffalo? It's true.

Form follows function.

Choose the right tool for the job.

Pick your load accordingly. ;f

V Creed
10-06-2004, 16:13
The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

---------------------------------------

I agree (1) that too little penetration is bad. And (2) alleged "over penetration" I don't worry about.

But, having seen BG's stopped instantly with one shallow penetrating COM pistol bullet, I know that there is more to "stopping power" than deep +12" penetration. Whether it's called shock, or stopping power, or whatever, it exists and isn't a myth.

If not, maybe the FBI can explain why deep penetrating .38 special 158gr RNL bullets don't have much stopping power, but much shallower penetrating .357 mag 125gr JHP's do?

Luckily, 10mm full-velocity ammo in the heavier weights have both deep penetration and decisive stopping power.

Tazz10m
10-06-2004, 16:30
Originally posted by V Creed
The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

---------------------------------------

I agree (1) that too little penetration is bad. And (2) alleged "over penetration" I don't worry about.

But, having seen BG's stopped instantly with one shallow penetrating COM pistol bullet, I know that there is more to "stopping power" than deep +12" penetration. Whether it's called shock, or stopping power, or whatever, it exists and isn't a myth.

If not, maybe the FBI can explain why deep penetrating .38 special 158gr RNL bullets don't have much stopping power, but much shallower penetrating .357 mag 125gr JHP's do?

Luckily, 10mm full-velocity ammo in the heavier weights have both deep penetration and decisive stopping power.

One of the more amazing things about "stopping" is the fact that some people that sustain relatively little damage die anyway because they simply believe they "have been shot so they are going to die" and give up the effort to live. Others, who have been shot all to hell, live quite a long time with such damage because they fight to stay alive.

As for "...why deep penetrating .38 special 158gr RNL bullets don't have much stopping power, but much shallower penetrating .357 mag 125gr JHP's do?" The .357 125gr JHP's (or 124gr JHP's) cause a hell of a lot more damage. Basically it's the difference between a long ice pick, and a shorter double edged knife. The knife is going to cause much more damage, placement for placement.

Tito
10-07-2004, 07:55
Originally posted by Tazz10m
Ask Mr. Stoneage Mann, he'll tell you what works.

Dude, are you out there?

Darkangel1846
10-10-2004, 12:21
Originally posted by Tazz10m
One of the more amazing things about "stopping" is the fact that some people that sustain relatively little damage die anyway because they simply believe they "have been shot so they are going to die" and give up the effort to live. Others, who have been shot all to hell, live quite a long time with such damage because they fight to stay alive.

As for "...why deep penetrating .38 special 158gr RNL bullets don't have much stopping power, but much shallower penetrating .357 mag 125gr JHP's do?" The .357 125gr JHP's (or 124gr JHP's) cause a hell of a lot more damage. Basically it's the difference between a long ice pick, and a shorter double edged knife. The knife is going to cause much more damage, placement for placement.

Dude you really think "over penetration" is a myth. I don't really remember where that concern came from except back in the 1960s there were a few cases of this in NYC. I think it was over penetration and not missed shots that killed a bystander.
When I used to work the ER we used to get a lot of through and through shots from the streets...close range 9mm and .38s.(usually shoot outs with the LEOs)
I think I might do a little research about "Over Penetration", see if it really is a myth.

Tazz10m
10-10-2004, 23:42
Originally posted by Tito
Dude, are you out there?


Yup! ;f

Study your anthropology. Even in North America there were people living "in the stone age" as near back as about 1860-1870 and maybe even later. In some parts of the world there still may be.

Tazz10m
10-10-2004, 23:56
Originally posted by Darkangel1846
Dude you really think "over penetration" is a myth. I don't really remember where that concern came from except back in the 1960s there were a few cases of this in NYC. I think it was over penetration and not missed shots that killed a bystander.
When I used to work the ER we used to get a lot of through and through shots from the streets...close range 9mm and .38s.(usually shoot outs with the LEOs)
I think I might do a little research about "Over Penetration", see if it really is a myth.

Until just a few years ago, as a matter of policy NYPD were still using FMJ's and RNL's, thanks to some "expert".

When you worked the ER, how many 'innocent' people were seriously injured by hollowpoints that had already penetrated all the way through a criminal and then hit them? I would suspect not many at all if not none at all.

Up until just a few years ago, an average of 4 out of 5 shots fired by the NYPD completely missed their 'targets' in 'shootouts'.

Do your research, and let us know what you come up with.

JoeSnuffy
10-14-2004, 23:59
Well penetration can be an issue if you are using hot and heavy loads

Why just the other day I was out on a good friend of mines Swift Boat
and we were surprised to see a big blue whale....

My friends boat is about 50 ft. long and that whale must have been twice that length...at least 100 ft long if he was an inch...had to go well over 150 tons to boot...

Well sir lucky for me I had my skinning knife and my G20 with the 6 inch barrel

I took a shot at that ole ceatacean but he sounded right off our port bow...at least I think it was port...I had the wine bottle in my left hand and the G20 in my right..so yep it was our port bow...

I figured he was doing a few knots faster than we were so I knew I had to lead him by about half a boat length....The sonar was popping pretty loud as that big blue boy was headed down past 250 fathoms...I knew I had to shoot or risk a miss at that depth..

I fired and then once again for good luck...those big beartooth bullets dove deep...and must have tore a big hole through that monster...he rose from the deep like a Polaris missle and danced on his tail like Flipper (you know him...They call him flipper flipper faster than lightning...no one you see is smarter than he)... on Mexican Red Meth

Thats when we could see daylight clean through his mid section...and fluffy white clouds...

Well sir things picked up after that...a US Navy fast attack sub also came to the surface and boy was the captain mad...Seems that round went clean through that whale and down through the conning tower of that sub...shot a hole in the Captains head (the crapper to you land lubbers) messed up several back issues of Handgunner magazine and exited clean out the bottom of his boat...

To make matters worse that bullet must have had a lot of energy left because he got a report from the state dept that a chinaman was shot right off his front porch by a bullet that came up from underneath him right through his concrete basement floor...the bullet went clean through that chinamans leg and then it musta went up through his roof and hit his son who was replacing those red tiles they are all so fond of...he fell off and landed in a big bucket of fish heads

So now I suppose they want the US taxpayers to pay for their lunch...

It next downed a ChiCom Mig fighter jet and then a Rooskie communication satelite..

Where it went after that is kinda a mystery but ...I think those sunspots we have been having are no accident...

Moral of the story...watch where you point that thing...

I hereby testify this here story is completely true...and my friend John Kerry says if I vote for him a few dozen times like a whole bunch of other folks have promised or been paid to... he will vouch for it...

And who wouldnt believe a self decorated war hero from Massashoo****..(gusuntheit)

Tazz10m
10-15-2004, 11:03
I was a little sceptical about this story, so i checked it out with the CBS and the Chinese News Service...

IT'S TRUE!!!

Joe, that story is classic! It really belongs not just here, but in the "8:40 PM" thread. Feel free to repeat that story there, it'll fit right in!

Hey, on a side note, i thought that song "Flipper" was written about John Kerry?

;f

JoeSnuffy
10-17-2004, 13:54
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1248042/posts



Satellite Smashes Chinese House
BBC News ^ | 17 OCT 2004

Posted on 10/17/2004 2:23:37 PM CDT by Anduril1

Sunday, 17 October, 2004, 11:06 GMT 12:06 UK

Satellite smashes Chinese house

A Chinese satellite has smashed into a villager's house on its return to earth, the country's media reports. The satellite destroyed
the building in Sichuan province, but officials say no-one was hurt.

A local newspaper printed a picture of a kettle-shaped capsule which appeared to be about two metres long, lying amid broken
bricks, beams and roof tiles.

The satellite was part of a space probe to carry out land surveys and other research, Xinhua news agency said.

"The satellite landed in our home. Maybe this means we'll have good luck this year," the tenant of the wrecked apartment was quoted
as saying by the newspaper.

Yeah well...If you ask me the Party officials can keep their their version of the story....General Paos Kung Fu Chicken Coop Soup will freeze over before they would ever admit that that 10mm hole through it is what really brought her down or that an interprising young capitalist in Utah mighta had somethin' to do with it....

LDHunter
10-22-2004, 06:51
Methinks y'all been sniffin' the 231 jug again... ;z

$bob$

glockophile
10-25-2004, 01:48
This thread is ridiculous. So many things can and do go wrong in any type of gun fight. There are so many enormous risks. All gun fights are about choosing the best among several very bad options. There are NO good outcomes in a gunfight. Even the best possible case, where the display of a gun causes the situation to de-escalate, is still a bad outcome, because lethal force entered the scenario, even if it wasn't used. All handgun rounds are under-powered and inadequate and none of them penetrate adequately. You want a round that will dump as much eneergy as possible, cause as much tissue damage as possible, and penetrate as deeply as possible, and that means either a rifle round or a shotgun blast. Any pistol round is going to come up short compared to a rifle or a shotgun. A bullet may have to go through multiple layers of clothing, skin and bone, plus inches of fat and muscle, to get through to anything where it might cause incapacitation. Or it might have to go through a car door, a piece of furniture, etc, plus bone, fat and muscle to hopefully get to a major nerve center, heart or blood vessel. NO handgun round (other than hunting rounds) can do that reliably.

Yes, sure, perhaps a bullet could go through a target and cause harm on the other side... but if some innocent person is so close to someone who is causing deadly harm, the situation is horrible, someone is almost certain to be getting hurt anyway. That should be a very rare situation, unless you're a SWAT sniper, in which case you might use special frangible ammo, etc for something like that. If you're wasting time planning for these extremely rare and dangerous situations, then you must train continuously and be absolutely sharp for all the other much more likely situations. Even these "likely" situations are things that few of us will ever encounter in our lives, thank God.

Use the most powerful round you can handle, always, unless you really are on a SWAT team and you anticipate dealing with hostages, shootouts in drug labs, shootouts on an airplane, etc. All pistols are inadequate weapons. It's what you have because you can't carry a rifle or a shotgun, both of which always have more penetration that pistols.

PurchGuru
10-29-2004, 20:06
Exactly!

That is why I always carry my bazooka. It can penetrate several inches of steel armor and blast the "soft organ" critters inside.

Did I mention that the bazooka I carry is made by Gaston? It is his model 20! I choose my loading carefully, too!

Tito
11-03-2004, 06:55
So, how you like my little friend? She's a bazooooooka!

http://cist.nease.net/Glock20.jpg

gdk123
11-09-2004, 08:34
i was told by police friends that their depts consider 10mm a liabilty because of its probability to pass through people even in hollow point. is that true.

noway
11-09-2004, 08:49
Now my thoughts; Every bullet has the potential of overpentrating, crap every thing a dept does could be "potential liability". ( recalled young lady killed with less-than lethal ammo a few weeks back .......)


Think about this for one second, most LEOs today that use the 10mm used the 10mm lite aka 40sw performance. So if most of the LEO agencies in the USA are using a 40sw caliber and most of the 10mms stills in services are using 40sw "like performance" ala "10mm-lite/FBI-lite/etc.... ) then they should be at no more risk of over penetrating.

The police force should worry more about markmanship and actually hitting a person vrs over penetration issues. You probably stand more of a chance of being hit by a miss than a overpenetrated projectile. ;f

El Capitan
11-11-2004, 21:15
http://members.aol.com/MrNeon69/business.gif
He said 'overpenetration'.

heh, heh, heh, heh

V Creed
11-12-2004, 14:21
The final word: Every single "failure to stop", both on the street and in the woods, that I have personally witnessed, has been due to insufficient penetration. No exceptions.

On the other hand, the "fastest stops" have always been the result of COM hits with high velocity bullets, especially expanding bullets.

Best loads = deep penetrating, high velocity JHP's. ^c

kassenz
11-14-2004, 15:40
from my research, Most of the commercially available 10mm loads are loaded within 50fps on 40sw loads. The only high-energy loads are hard to find, like doubletap or cor-bon. Full loads to have increased flash, recoil, and penetration, but you already new that.
Got a 10mm? Federal Hydrashoks are a lite round and have good power. I would run full power if I had a 10mm, Because, isn't that way you bought it?

My advise is: buy different ammo, have fun trying what feels good to you.

seanmc42
12-08-2004, 19:46
Do we really have a thread titled
"Sticky Overpenetration" ?

rickyj
12-23-2004, 12:17
The only way to kill something (quickly) is through blood loss or CNS damage. Assuming that hitting a target as small as the CNS in a fast moving, three dimensional, unpredictable, high stress environments is not going to happen reliably - then you should be shooting center torso for the purpose of blood loss. Your bullet needs to penetrate through the body (bones, muscle, etc) and do as much cutting as possible to maximize blood loss. That is it.

Now I would say, and this is just personal opinion mingled in with various facts, that a bullet needs three things to kill:

1) Mass - enough inertia to pass through the body. Very light bullets simply do not have enough mass to do this. They will transfer 100% of their energy to the much heavier body nearly instantly, resulting in all of their energy being transferred very shallowly.

2) Velocity - the faster the bullet is going, the more energy it has to pass through the body. Tissue does not have time to "move out of the way" of a faster moving bullet, resulting in more tissue damage. There is NOT that much energy in a bullet, the reason it does so much damage is that the effects of that energy are "deposited" into the body in such a short amount of time.

3) Bullet design - cutting edges and tissue damage. Hollow points have sharper edges and larger diameters, so they can do more tissue damage and cause more blood loss.


So assuming that your bullet has been designed to achieve every bit of cutting that is physically possible, the best way to maximize lethality is to make the bullet heavy enough to go through the entire body (because the more damage the bullet does, the more blood loss occurs), and with enough velocity to go through the entire body.

Any time you try to make a bullet so that it won't pass through the body (to prevent overpenetration) you have to be decreasing effectiveness in killing the target. Period. If the bullet stops halfway through the body, then something is wrong.

Just my opinion - but I want any bullets that I shoot to go completely through the BG.

Tito
12-28-2004, 08:02
Originally posted by rickyj
The only way to kill something (quickly) is through blood loss or CNS damage. Assuming that hitting a target as small as the CNS in a fast moving, three dimensional, unpredictable, high stress environments is not going to happen reliably - then you should be shooting center torso for the purpose of blood loss. Your bullet needs to penetrate through the body (bones, muscle, etc) and do as much cutting as possible to maximize blood loss. That is it.

Now I would say, and this is just personal opinion mingled in with various facts, that a bullet needs three things to kill:

1) Mass - enough inertia to pass through the body. Very light bullets simply do not have enough mass to do this. They will transfer 100% of their energy to the much heavier body nearly instantly, resulting in all of their energy being transferred very shallowly.

2) Velocity - the faster the bullet is going, the more energy it has to pass through the body. Tissue does not have time to "move out of the way" of a faster moving bullet, resulting in more tissue damage. There is NOT that much energy in a bullet, the reason it does so much damage is that the effects of that energy are "deposited" into the body in such a short amount of time.

3) Bullet design - cutting edges and tissue damage. Hollow points have sharper edges and larger diameters, so they can do more tissue damage and cause more blood loss.


So assuming that your bullet has been designed to achieve every bit of cutting that is physically possible, the best way to maximize lethality is to make the bullet heavy enough to go through the entire body (because the more damage the bullet does, the more blood loss occurs), and with enough velocity to go through the entire body.

Any time you try to make a bullet so that it won't pass through the body (to prevent overpenetration) you have to be decreasing effectiveness in killing the target. Period. If the bullet stops halfway through the body, then something is wrong.

Just my opinion - but I want any bullets that I shoot to go completely through the BG.

Agreed. That's why I carry 200g. XTPs @ 1,250 fps. in my 20 and 29.

V Creed
01-12-2005, 13:46
I agree. I've never worried about "over penetration", which is more of a legal issue than a survival issue. It's under penetration that concerns me. ;P

Chainsaw Maniac
01-29-2005, 20:45
XTPs for defense? To each their own. If I wanted something truly WICKED, I believe I would stick with Double Tap's 165 grain Gold Dots.

AK_Stick
02-03-2005, 21:33
I completely penetraded a black bear with 1 round of hornaday 200 grn XTP from a glock 29 so yes if you shoot corbon or double tap your looking at a round that has the potential to over penitrate would I worry about it? nah

Chainsaw Maniac
02-03-2005, 23:47
I'm curious. How heavy was that bear, Stick?

AK_Stick
02-04-2005, 00:27
big, I dont have his weight or age infront of me, but in the 550-600 range

Chainsaw Maniac
02-04-2005, 00:34
Then that was a helluva shot with a FACTORY XTP! McNett has said that he recommends his HOT XTPs on bears up to 400 pounds. With a G20. Maybe he's a bit on the conservative side. Ya think?

Tazz10m
02-04-2005, 02:01
Way to revive a thread, AK_Stick!

Where'd ya hit 'em, what angle, how thick was he, boar or sow, and did you hit any bones?

Oh, and how far did he go???

Inquiring minds want to know!

A G29, no less! Ya got ta love it!

Pictures????

Chainsaw Maniac
02-04-2005, 12:28
QUOTE: "A G29, no less! Ya got ta love it!"

Yeah, I saw that too. THAT was one helluva shot! But I believe I would have wanted a long gun for backup somewhere in the equation, just in case.....

Tazz10m
02-04-2005, 14:07
Originally posted by Chainsaw Maniac
QUOTE: "A G29, no less! Ya got ta love it!"

Yeah, I saw that too. THAT was one helluva shot! But I believe I would have wanted a long gun for backup somewhere in the equation, just in case.....

Awww... com'on Chainsaw! Ya just know that would take all the fun out of it! ;f

AK_Stick
02-04-2005, 15:21
it was a lucky shot, between two ribs into the heart and lungs and through the other side without hitting any bones. Would I count on it again? hell no, would I use a XTP on bear again? probably but only if I couldn't get some DT, it was rather different being only a few yards from a large black bear, even with my 375 ICL laying across my lap with 5 rounds of 300 grn persuasion

AK_Stick
02-04-2005, 15:22
I'll try to find the story, I posted it here back right after I took him, but that was in june...

Chainsaw Maniac
02-04-2005, 16:15
QUOTE: "it was a lucky shot, between two ribs into the heart and lungs and through the other side without hitting any bones"

I wondered about that. But I still say it was a helluva shot. And with a G29 to boot! We'll probably be talking about that one for a while.

Next time we hear someone try to claim that a G29 performs like a .40, I now have the perfect answer!

AK_Stick
02-04-2005, 18:27
I had my 375 ICL very close, and my buddy backing me up with a 338 and 44 just incase

here are some pictures, sorry they arn't very good, it was getting dark and we had two bears to skin. (other bear was hit by the 375 with a finisher put in him from the 10mm)

http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/users/41c3d8d5z4464e86e/ad90/__sr_/f4f0.jpg?phfGCBCB4mZjqT_S

http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/users/41c3d8d5z4464e86e/ad90/__sr_/fcc6.jpg?phfGCBCBcwOZ3TmA

Chainsaw Maniac
02-04-2005, 20:32
Nice work, Mr. Stick! ;c ;c ;c

Toomas
02-28-2005, 20:19
Considering these facts before accepting through-n-throughs:
-Virtually all handgun rounds vary in diameter only approx one quarter of an inch (.22 vs .50 is only .28 inches).
-Expansion of these rounds upon impact then makes the "hole" vary up to another quarter to half of an inch.
-The above numbers are much smaller when considering the fact that most of us are using something between a 9mm and a .45 cal.
-Most of you brag about your preferred hot loads. Hot loads add velocity and torque. Think about WHY you are getting excited about these hot loads. It's because they have more power. Power for what?
-Power to penetrate, power to cause impact stress, power to knock down, power to cause damage when penetrating soft tissues.
-What good is all that power when the bullet passes through your fleshy target?!!??!

OK, maybe you were 1/16" closer to a major blood vessel because of expansion or because you simply have a big bore. Maybe your full penetration cut throgh an extra 2" of ribs and meat, but if that's the case then you've already went beyond the vitals. Human torsos front to back are average less than a foot thick, and most game animals are about 2 feet thick. If yuo pass through these then consider how much damage you've caused with your wound cavities, and think about all of the power you've wasted. Keep the power in your target for best results in maximizing the wound cavities. A hole doesn't always keep your game in place.

Black Snowman
03-04-2005, 17:45
Over penetration for someone in a personal defense scenario, particularly with a handgun, is a non-issue. For organizations sending many rounds down range by people of variable experience and skill attempting to protect the public more than themselves, they have some room for concern.

It's my opinion that an under-penetrating round is more likely to cause loss of life do to an inability to rapidly stop a hostile target than even missed rounds having the unlikely result of striking an unintended target.

Look at the Hollywood shootout. 1000+ rounds of 7.62x39 FMJ expended by the bad guys and they only managed to hit people they were targeting. No reports of stray rounds hitting anyone. Even those who were hit, in one case 9 times, were able to be saved with fairly prompt medical attention. The only loss of life in that even were the 2 criminals.

Too me nearly any handgun round is going to be a compromise. I'll carry the biggest round I can carry and control. For me that usually works out to 10mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP but I wouldn't feel bad about toting a 454 Casull or even a 500 S&W if the circumstances warranted it. But if I'm expecting trouble, I'll take .308 or 12 gauge slugs thank you. :)

My Dad's home defense pairing is a 44 Mag Blackhawk for checking noises and a 458 Win Mag if he's holed up waiting for the Police.

Good information to know:
http://www.firearmstactical.com

-What good is all that power when the bullet passes through your fleshy target?!!??!
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

PaleGreenHorse
03-04-2005, 18:11
I thought lighting people on fire was against the geneva convention??? Well there goes your .454 casull idea, lol;f

hollow10mm
03-04-2005, 19:43
same with the 4 inch 500 S&W.

porterfield
03-05-2005, 09:16
I have read BlkSnow's overpenetration points on a different forum and all I have to say is--I couldn't agree more!
Great post.

DonD
03-05-2005, 09:28
I like the post, the only comment I'd have is that a max loaded .500 Mag will seriously outperform a .308 in anything but armor penetration and trajectory. My .500 Mag handloads have more energy and far more penetration and cross section. Don ;f ;f

xd>glock2me
03-05-2005, 09:53
458 Win Mag


;P ;P ;P - should work good if a bear is in their also!

The 500 is such a big gun! I held a 4" the other day and it was just overwhelming!

Black Snowman
03-11-2005, 19:35
My Dad has spotted a Couger just behind their back yard fence mosying tward the nearby farm. He has some copper solids for disabling engines of escaping criminals as well. He's all sighted in for the road at the top of the hill.

Because laws don't stop criminals. People do.

senseijohn
05-29-2005, 19:07
Hi everyone. The overpenetration being discussed appears to be aimed (no pun) at human bad guys. My foremost thought in carrying the 10mm is canine. I live in Maine where it has become/is COOL to own a pit-bull terrier or Rottweiller. My youngest brother was attacked in front of me by a "TRAINED" dog. Hence, my sights (no pun) are set on Relative Firepower and absolutely stopping a aggressive threat from a dog. Anyone new to maine should be prepared for the reality of neighborhood gangs that will "send" a attack dog upon you or those you love. The idea is to attack with impunity. They do not register nor admit to owning a dog after the attack. Many such attacks take place, check the news. Lest we forget, what happens to the bullets that miss the bad guy. I understand that frangibles do in fact work on innocents. "you don't win a fight, you survive it."

Darkangel1846
06-15-2005, 15:25
Well I did do some research on over penitration. I found it to be somewhat mythical. You find traces of suspected overpenatration with innocent bystanders. But I think mostly its missed shots.
Although I find many a person talking about overpenatration, and what might happen, I can't seem to find any specific documented incidence where it did happened. Now I can find several references where bystanders were hit by wild (missed shots) shots fired by both police, criminals, and private citizens. Can't seem to find any documentation on through and through shots killing anyone else........except in theory or in movies.
My Glock 20 has become my most favoret handgun. For target I practice with standard rounds that are about 1000 fps. For CCW I pack the Double Tap 155 gr HPs, at close to 1500 fps. In the back woods I pack the 200 grain Penatrating HPs just incase Mr. Smoky Bear decides he wants to talk to me.
Next to the .44 mag, this is the most versital handgun on the Market.
Next The 6 inch compensated barrel.
Over Penatration is a myth started by some High ranking LEO who didn't want to take some heat for having to powerful a ammo.
DA

147 Grain
08-01-2005, 16:57
Before worrying about overpenetration, we need to be more concerned with hitting the target.

We always here talk about a bullet going through somebody, but don't think twice about all the misses than put many more people at risk than a spent bullet exiting the BG.

senseijohn
08-01-2005, 18:30
Hi everyone. I am unsure of the source, however I recall hearing of an incident where a military diplomatic bodyguard needed to open fire in a crowded room. His solution was to drop to the floor landing on his elbows. He took a single shot with a .45auto killing the attacker. The angle to target was believed to be between 45 and 60 degrees. The Ambassador was quite impressed. MORAL: LEOs or civilians have the opportunity to move prior to a shot (ala the Mexican drill). That is to say, movement on any plane, in advance or retreat, horizontal or vertical to ensure the safest attack angle.

Toomas
08-02-2005, 10:55
[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseijohn

You see, there are those that understand overpenetration very well and use it to their tactical advantage. In the case cited by senseimillajohn the bodyguard realized that all he had to do was to shoot through a few legs to kill the assassin. If he was to hit a bystander in the thigh then it could still pass through and find it's target and not cause collateral casualties. Overpenetration is not always a bad thing. ~rf

Overpenetration is not a myth since it is proven in terminal ballistics. Even though you do not hear about a lot of cases the potential does still exist and there must be some cases in print. In the civilian world, including civilian police, most folks use lower calibers that don't necessarily have the energy to overpenetrate a torso, and many folks also like to keep hollowpoints loaded. This combination keeps the number of incidents to a minimum.

Keep an eye out for any news stories of someone being shot with higher calibers-you may be able to find some case history. If you find any post them here.....

147 Grain
08-02-2005, 13:31
....but the frequency of being hit by an overpenetrating bullet is far less than being hit by a stray round at full power.

Overpenetration is the exception here and not the rule as too many are worried about.

Toomas
08-02-2005, 13:48
Originally posted by 147 Grain
....but the frequency of being hit by an overpenetrating bullet is far less than being hit by a stray round at full power.

Overpenetration is the exception here and not the rule as too many are worried about.

I absolutely agree 100%. There are far too many folks buying firearms without putting enough thought and practice into it. Firearms owners have a responsibility to become somewhat proficient with their firearms so that they can actually hit a reasonable target. Most people couldn't hit a person standing in the same room much less standing 25 yards away. But it looks so easy on tv......

My G20 with 150 gn Noslers pushed by 7 grains of Winchester231 at about 1250 fps, topped by an eotech holosight, will keep 8 out of 10 on a 10" bell at 100 yards from an off hand modified weaver stance. I can hit any reasonable target (and them some), so I like to consider overpenetration in my home defense loads. I keep my 15 rd mag loaded with the first bullet being a 180 gn fmj for a warning shot (to me a warning shot is in the leg or foot), then I've got 6 glaser safety slugs, and then the rest are my pet homeloaded noslers.

Turk40SW
08-11-2005, 19:32
warning shot?

IMHO that's a really bad idea.. If I need to pull the trigger, its because I want someone stopped right that very second.. Warning shots will get you killed or thrown in jail..

I prefer 12-14" of penetration.. 14 being a winter carry to deal with extra layering.

If I had the gear, I'd setup a chronometer on the back side of a 12" slab of Ballistics gelatin "wearing clothes" front and back with another slab behind it, also wearing "wearing clothes". Maybe a 3ft distance..

I'm not worried about overpenetration as i am missing.. I am guessing that after 12" of travel through COM the bullet's velocity has dropped so low, and expanded so large that the chances of causing major damage to a second person is slim.. I could be wrong, i'm just deducing

DonD
08-13-2005, 22:32
For Toomas, if you fire a warning shot here in NM, you're likely to end up in jail. You may only shoot if you're at risk of death or serious bodily injury. You also cannot pull the gun to "warn" the assailant. Without real risk of the above serious injury or death, you're guilty of brandishing a firearm and again are in trouble. Don

Darkangel1846
08-21-2005, 18:25
Originally posted by Toomas
I absolutely agree 100%. There are far too many folks buying firearms without putting enough thought and practice into it. Firearms owners have a responsibility to become somewhat proficient with their firearms so that they can actually hit a reasonable target. Most people couldn't hit a person standing in the same room much less standing 25 yards away. But it looks so easy on tv......

My G20 with 150 gn Noslers pushed by 7 grains of Winchester231 at about 1250 fps, topped by an eotech holosight, will keep 8 out of 10 on a 10" bell at 100 yards from an off hand modified weaver stance. I can hit any reasonable target (and them some), so I like to consider overpenetration in my home defense loads. I keep my 15 rd mag loaded with the first bullet being a 180 gn fmj for a warning shot (to me a warning shot is in the leg or foot), then I've got 6 glaser safety slugs, and then the rest are my pet homeloaded noslers.

What ya gonna do if your Eotech fails?

Toomas
09-20-2005, 10:31
Originally posted by Darkangel1846
What ya gonna do if your Eotech fails?

I do put a lot of faith and trust in my eotechs. I have one on my hunting bow as well as my G20, and I have another that is currently on my backup bow, although I'm considering mounting it on my SKS. Needless to say, I use these eotechs for serious field work. I keep spare batteries on hand at all times just in case. If the eotech failed to light at a critical moment I would still feel comfortable hitting close my mark at close quarters by just looking through the blank window and relying on my natural instinct to point and shoot. Worst case scenario I'll grab another piece-I always keep backup close by. For the bow, if my eotech fails at a critical moment while hunting then I will miss my opportunity. But I keep the eotech mounted as such because of the trust and reliabilty I have in it, including the long battery life and ease of use.

Toomas
09-20-2005, 11:43
Originally posted by DonD
For Toomas, if you fire a warning shot here in NM, you're likely to end up in jail. You may only shoot if you're at risk of death or serious bodily injury. You also cannot pull the gun to "warn" the assailant. Without real risk of the above serious injury or death, you're guilty of brandishing a firearm and again are in trouble. Don

Again I agree 100%. I'll reiterate with a quote from my previous statement-"with the first bullet being a 180 gn fmj for a warning shot (to me a warning shot is in the leg or foot), ". I would never brandish my piece for a "show" of force and I would never fire at an inanimate object as a "warning" to whomever is posing a threat. My "warning" shot in the leg or foot (or even better the hip)is intended to debilitate and stop further progress of a life threatening assailant without killing them. I have a hard time believing that any state or local law would require that self defense situations demand a lethal shot while faulting a person for aiming to simply disable the attacker. Ideally the attacker will be kept alive so that they can be further be brought to justice and made into an example.

Nonlethal first shots are a bad idea for most "defenders" who need to ensure that the assailant does not have a second chance, and laws do penalize for intent to maim and cripple. And, of course deadly force can only be used if yours/others life is being immediately threatened. But it doesn't mean that you can't surgically stop your assailant. I'd love to hear more if there are cases where persons in defense situations were prosecuted for wounding their assailant where their intent was to protect themselves without killing someone.

I'm confident enough in my skills to attempt a nonlethal first shot if the situation warrants. The "warning" to the assailant is simply one that says "I am also armed and have attempted to stop your use of deadly force, and I will further use my deadly force if you do not cease and surrender". This situation cannot be illegal, but please cite an example of a law or case study if it is. I'd be fascinated to see this.

Now if I'm faced with a situation where I feel that I may not have the first shot, or if I cannot get a good bead, then torso it is.

The mantras in the basic gun handling rules do say that you should never produce a firearm without full intent to use it with deadly force, and that you should never aim it without intent to destroy your target. The complete set of gun rules and many others are fully engrained in me through training and experience. If I pull a piece, then it will be used appropriately, but I will limit the use of that force to a less lethal level if at all possible.

senseijohn
10-11-2005, 12:20
Hi everyone. Mr. Toomas, a "surgical" shot placement in a gunfight is not probable. At the range you may group quite well, however, the range is not a gunfight. For your amusement, at the range please do 100 jumping-jacks, followed by 50 sit-ups, followed by 30 push-ups. This should mimic the physiological stressors of a firearm confrontation. Immediatly attempt to make your "surgical" shots at around 5 to 7 meters. This should provide you with enlightenment. Good luck.

bdcochran
10-12-2005, 23:51
Is overpenetration a problem?

Hmmm! Is overpenetration a matter of the round going through the intended target, exiting and hitting something you don't want to hit? Well, if so, you have options:

1. do not shoot;
2. aim to hit the target in a location where any overpentration will not hit something you want to hit.

Is overpentration a matter of the round not remaining in the target and you having a belief that the round will penetrate and exit the target? Well, if so, let's explore the options:

1. hit the target where over penetration will not occur. This sounds ludicrous when you are shooting an exposed hand, an exposed knee or elbow of a BG, right? And, just how often do you personally think that you will have a stationary target 6 feet away that it allows you to shoot center mass all day?
2. hit the target with a blunt instrument like 28 inch cast iron water pipe with end caps; knock the target down with your martial arts skills

The discussion of "overpenetration" usually occurs in the context of shooting a shotgun inside an apartment or shooting a rifle round. My attitude may not be politically correct. Too bad. I want a round that goes through walls, car engines, car doors and when it hits someone, the person goes down for the count. I don't want to have to be thinking about select slug drills, low recoil or whimp rounds, using underpowered rounds that will get me killed. If I am concerned about the backdrop to the BG, I change the angle of the shot or simply decide that I don't mind being killed because I am concerned about a round going through a BG or a wall and hitting someone else.:soap: ;z

Toomas
10-17-2005, 13:46
The hip is a good point to aim at for most situations, since:
1. it will allow a lower angle of trajectory, helping to minimize overpenetration risks
2. it's a fairly large mass to aim at
3. immediate disablement and loss of balance
4. not necessarily lethal
5. lots of bone to help limit overpenetration
6. if the target is moving the torso follows the hip

But in the heat of the moment it's not easy to remember the drills so you've just go to do whatever it takes....

boraxis
10-20-2005, 15:20
I always thought the issue was accidental wall or barrier "overpenetration" when you miss, because you can't take into account who might be behind the target if you can't see them through the wall. It's probably not practical to be too concerned about it otherwise and it's ridiculous to say you'll just be sure not to miss.

If you saw your kid or your Mom or your favorite dog right behind a BG, you'd probably automatically consider the consequences of a miss or overpenetration, even if all you were shooting was a .22 pistol. I hope.

You have to choose where you find a balance and be prepared to take responsibility for your choice. Between a .454 and a 10mm I'd go with the 10 for home defense, any load. My neighbor though, I hope he has a 9. What about your neighbor?

ppro
10-21-2005, 22:08
Over Penetration with the 10MM

Over, under, insufficient, excessive ????

Ye gods, what have the lawyers done to us !! ;P

I don't cop anymore....worse yet, I am federal contract, armed in a room full of people, often off their meds, 10/96 and hopefully off their illegal drugs. Oh fun !

I don't worry about over penetration, but I run EVERY CONCEIVABLE TATICAL mental what if, on a regular basis, and PRACTICE.

Over penetration is probably the least of my worries. NOT STOPPING a armed crazed assailant intent on taking out other innocent persons, worries me much more.

Paul

boraxis
10-22-2005, 07:01
Originally posted by ppro
Over Penetration with the 10MM

Ye gods, what have the lawyers done to us !! ;P



Crap, the lawyers had me believing it was the gun mags that did this to us! Good post ppro. In real life my best neighbor has a .44 Mag and I appreciate having him around, especially in this neighborhood.

CanyonMan
11-29-2005, 20:34
The discussion of "overpenetration" usually occurs in the context of shooting a shotgun inside an apartment or shooting a rifle round. My attitude may not be politically correct. Too bad. I want a round that goes through walls, car engines, car doors and when it hits someone, the person goes down for the count. I don't want to have to be thinking about select slug drills, low recoil or whimp rounds, using underpowered rounds that will get me killed.


Hoss you are right! ;)

Man i want to leave a hole big enough, and deep enough, to pitch a mule through! ;f

Hand guns are not the instant killers everyone makes them out to be, so if you are going to carry one to defend yourself, why not use ammo that is going to get #1.. Max Penetration, and then if, #2.. it does expand, great!


"Please don't answer, but how many of ya have ever really been shot at, or shot someone else? (don't reply ok, because i don't want to answer back)." I'm just saying, that so much of this 'Internet talk' is just that, 'talk.' People need to talk about what they know, not about what they have 'no clue about,' and read here or there, or heard someone say, or figured out on a calculater, or saw on CSI, etc.

Through & Through's, if you want to use this term, "do happen," But again, it is the guy scared spitless, spraying bullets wildly, or a miss for whatever reason, that is bad news to the innocent, not the over penetration.

Shoot ammo that will get the best penetration, and learn the weapon, and learn to shoot!

Sorry but all this 'Lone Ranger' and "B" western talk is Bull.

Shooting in the leg, shoot the shoulder, pop a knee joint, or a hip joint, take this stance that stance. My goodnes! If you got time to worry about your stance, with two or three guys shooting at you, you are really a cool character. If you can hit a knee joint under pressure, and stress to the max, and chaos going on to the max, "it's dumb," but you are a cool customer, and a great shot.

Is this possible,? Sure, but my question is "why" ?

To the "very highly" trained professional, this is even more possible, and even under tons of stress, and they may have cause for this type of action, for a 'specific tatical reason.'

But to the armed citizen, that can't even hardly clean his gun without a manual, this is just plain dumb!

It is very easy to see why there are so many gun related accidents each year, because there are so many people who do not have a clue how to use them, 'or their head,' in a situation. If you can't get a grip on "How" to handle that weapon, then for God sake just use mace.


Just my $ 1.95 ;f



CanyonMan

Greybeard
01-22-2006, 08:26
Quote: "Hand guns are not the instant killers everyone makes them out to be"

You got that right! A "real world" example: During "extended spike and doe season" last weekend in Runnels County, I had a 40-yard shot on an old fat doe.

Handgun was Ruger SBH, 7 1/2" barrel. Hornady factory ammo, 240 grain XTP. Box sez 1900 fps at muzzle.

The doe had been facing me, but I waited until she turned predominately broadside before dropping the hammer. The XTP to lower chest made about a 1 1/2" entry hole in her hide, punched a slightly smaller hole into rib cage, caught the top of heart and one lung before leaving a barely-bleeding exit hole about 1/2 that diameter in rear of opposite side ribs.

Did the doe drop right there? Hardly. She immediately turned 180 degrees and ran like the wind for a solid 60 yards before piling up. After taking virtually a "text book" shot through the heart from a premo .452" 240 grain bullet traveling at around 1800 fps.

Does not exactly give even a .45 fan (with only about 1/2 the velocity) the warm fuzzies, huh?

freakshow10mm
01-22-2006, 13:37
Velocity= trajectory. KE= penetration. When I look at ballistic charts and I see a velocity figure versus another I think faster bullet, flatter trajectory. When I see KE on chart, I think more KE, more penetration.

Observations on hunting:

Unless it is a CNS hit, the animal dies from blood pressure loss, which takes time. The average time it takes for a deer or similar animal's blood pressure to drop to the point they "pile up" is around 8-12 seconds. I have read this in a number of hunting mags and tested this theory myself over the years. I take hunting and gun rags with a grain of salt, but this has been proven to be fairly accurate too.

When a deer runs for 100 yards after the shot it it usually takes about 10 seconds to cover that distance. I'll take a conservative estimate of speed at 20mph (300' at 10 seconds= 30fps) based on the above figures. This runs is like an average deer, from a mature buck to a young doe or fawn. Average "tail up" speed is usually 20-25mph.

I use this to estimate distance ran after the shot if I can't eyeball the animal the whole time. I figure about 10 yards per second on a good sprint, being conservative, makes a good starting point. If I hear the animal running through the woods for 5 seconds, I figure it will be about 50 yards away from where it was hit. Over the years, this has held to be pretty accurate. I think the top speed for deer is probably closer to 25-30mph, but this gives a good estimate for field use.

Basically, the thing working against us is time.


Incoherent rambling:

I think the kinetic energy figure gives an estimate of the penetration of that particular projectile at that velocity. Velocity and energy are interdependant on each other. The higher the velocity the higher the energy. A KE figure gives me an idea of how deep it will penetrate into a body to reach the vitals. That is to say the same bullet with different KE figures, the one with more KE will penetrate deeper. KE is dependant of mass and velocity. Bullet design is also a factor and not taken into consideration for purposes of my ncoherent ramblings.

If a bullet reaches the vitals, it has done its job. That is what I want it to do. If I shoot a solid, non-expanding bullet at an animal, and it reaches the vitals, the bullet did the job. It entered the vital cavity and did damage, leading to blood loss and subsequent death of an animal via catastrophic blood pressure loss.

Expansion is just a bonus for me. I use larger calibers in handguns as a sort of "insurance policy" of an expanding bullet failing to expand. If a .45 caliber bullet fails to expand, at least I have a .45 caliber cutting diameter in the target doing damage (causing blood loss). Expansion is like a coefficient of damage. A .45 caliber slug that expands to .9 caliber does twice the damage, since the damage is basically the leading edge of the bullet doing the cutting of living tissue and not the shaft of the bullet. I don't get hung up on temporary vs. permanent wound cavity. A bullet twice the diameter of another will (theoretically) cut twice as much tissue resulting in twice as much damage and more, but not necessarily twice as much, blood loss, resulting in the incapacitation of that animal.

Glolt20-91
02-16-2006, 19:44
Late last year I experimented with 175gr Silvertips from a stock G20 and really wasn't impressed. My goal is to have as much of an energy dump/expansion with full penetration that won't go into the next county.

Just for fun I chronographed some 210gr Silvertips from a .44 mag and may have achieved that goal. In recovering 3 of the 4 rounds recovered; expansion measured between .96" to 1.106" which is very impressive from a .429 bullet. The fourth round expanded to .706" and spun off a shard of lead approximately .25" wide and 1.07" long. This was not from a full boogy load, chrono was over 1550fps which equates to about 1150ftlbs of energy.

180gr in .40 cal is relatively close in sectional density to 210grs in .429 cal.; 140grs in .357 and 230grs in .451 cal.

Using three different powders it was very easy to run 180gr Golden Sabers from a 6" KKM barrel from 1280fps (600ftlbs) to 1370fps (750ftlbs) and these bullets penetrated and expanded better than I was able to get several months ago from a stock G20 (combination sheet metal and/or sand and/or wood).

I expect 175gr Silvertips in 10mm to at least equal the 180gr GS bullet's velocity and leave a golf ball sized hole thru a BG and not penetrate the first layer of sheet rock in a room. This of course is supposition on my part, but the Silvertips are very explosive in their expansion, they tend to hold together and the velocity/energy from a 10mm should be enough to push a .90" bullet through a BG and expend itself upon hitting another barrier.

The Strasburg Papers give a different quantitative slant to what Fackler published; but they agree that .451 230gr FMJ is the smallest ball ammo that should be used for self defense and also the need for multiple shots on the bad guy.

Adios,
Bob

Redondo
05-19-2006, 18:51
Over penetration is a worry, ONLY, for those that wish to bunch themselves up, in areas, where they NEED IT!!! :) Been there, done that,.... moved on!

Short Cut
05-20-2006, 23:09
Originally posted by V Creed
The final word: Every single "failure to stop", both on the street and in the woods, that I have personally witnessed, has been due to insufficient penetration. No exceptions.

On the other hand, the "fastest stops" have always been the result of COM hits with high velocity bullets, especially expanding bullets.

Best loads = deep penetrating, high velocity JHP's. ^c

A year and a half later, but I'd still like to say - good post!

Los Suenos
09-18-2006, 19:20
This was great stuff, first time I've read it. A 240 gr. 44mag @ 1900 fps!?! I've never seen a 44mag load like that I must say. Not from a 7 1/2" barrel, not by Hornady. I've broken my thumb on a 200 gr. 44mag @ 1700 from a 5". SOB is still screwed up and that was a year and a half ago. Just saying... Very good stuff though guys, thanks.

Los Suenos
09-18-2006, 19:23
Just looked at Hornady's site. It's a 240 @ 1350 from a 7.5".

GlockBaby
09-02-2007, 06:35
Keep in mind the FBI slowed the 10mm down to 980 fps, so it would penetrate an average of 17.9". They wanted 18" of penetration, and, they got it.

The odd part about the 10mm is when you use the .40 bullets, at least the 180 GD's, 300 fps gives you maybe, a .5" more penetration, but, the bullet expands much better, up to .97 inches, vs the .6-.7" that the 40 usually opens up to.

S esq.

Tazz10m
09-21-2007, 23:16
Originally posted by GlockBaby
Keep in mind the FBI slowed the 10mm down to 980 fps, so it would penetrate an average of 17.9". They wanted 18" of penetration, and, they got it.

The odd part about the 10mm is when you use the .40 bullets, at least the 180 GD's, 300 fps gives you maybe, a .5" more penetration, but, the bullet expands much better, up to .97 inches, vs the .6-.7" that the 40 usually opens up to.

S esq.


Not all that odd. The bullets designed for use in .40 S&W are designed to "function" (open up) at much lower velocities than a 10mm is capable of. If they hold together at higher 10mm velocities and open to .97 that is a clear indication of good bullet design. And, yes, expansion like that at higher velocities is likely to reduce penetration because of the larger surface area from the larger diameter causing the bullet to slow down faster due to "media" resistance.

Jitterbug
10-18-2007, 08:50
Makes sense to me...now where I can I find a 180 Gold Dot doing 980fps.

Please hold the "get a 40", I'm sticking to my 10's thanks, I can make it a 40 with a mag change thanks.

Is the Georgia Arms 180 Gold Dot running at 1150 fps the best comprimize?

GlockBaby
11-15-2007, 22:16
JB:

I've looked at 10mm ammo for awhile now, and, it looks like you loose too much velocity for the bullet weight, once the bullets get over 180 grains. Browning originally wanted a 200 grain 45 ACP bullet, going something like 1000 fps, or more. Maybe he also saw the reduction in bullet speed not being compensated, or benefited from the increase in bullet weight.

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

In other words, if you look at ballistic tables long enough, and gello results, you sort of see points where, as much as I love bullet weight, the increase in weight doesn't result in much benefit, except higher recoil. There hits a point where you just need a bigger case, not higher pressure.

You sort of hit a wall, where the increased bullet weight requires a speed increase the case and powder can't provide, or, the bullet needs to have a thicker jacket to limit the expansion speed, or a harder core, or premium design.

I'm really not sure much is gained increasing bullet weight with DT ammo going from the above 180 grain bullets.

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

In 45 ACP, at least with Gold Dots, it seems pretty clear the 230 grain both expands more, and penetrates deeper. However,
With 45 Super max velocity for the 230's is about 1100 fps, and, 1200 fps for the 200's, and, I don't have gello results...It is possible to push the 185's to 1350 fps, and, they might well both penetrate, and expand more then at 1225,...

GB45S185/50 185 gr. JHP @1300 fps (694 ft. lbs.) Per Box of 50
$41.99
Order Now!
45S200/50 200 gr. JHP @ 1200 fps (639 ft. lbs.) Per Box of 50
$41.99
Order Now!
45S230/50 230 gr. JHP @1100 fps (618 ft. lbs.) Per Box of 50
$41.99

Above are Buffalobore factory offerings in 45 Super.

Northalius
05-13-2008, 07:49
JB:

I've looked at 10mm ammo for awhile now, and, it looks like you loose too much velocity for the bullet weight, once the bullets get over 180 grains. Browning originally wanted a 200 grain 45 ACP bullet, going something like 1000 fps, or more. Maybe he also saw the reduction in bullet speed not being compensated, or benefited from the increase in bullet weight.

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps 17.25 / .77
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

In other words, if you look at ballistic tables long enough, and gello results, you sort of see points where, as much as I love bullet weight, the increase in weight doesn't result in much benefit, except higher recoil. There hits a point where you just need a bigger case, not higher pressure.

You sort of hit a wall, where the increased bullet weight requires a speed increase the case and powder can't provide, or, the bullet needs to have a thicker jacket to limit the expansion speed, or a harder core, or premium design.

I'm really not sure much is gained increasing bullet weight with DT ammo going from the above 180 grain bullets.

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

In 45 ACP, at least with Gold Dots, it seems pretty clear the 230 grain both expands more, and penetrates deeper. However,
With 45 Super max velocity for the 230's is about 1100 fps, and, 1200 fps for the 200's, and, I don't have gello results...It is possible to push the 185's to 1350 fps, and, they might well both penetrate, and expand more then at 1225,...

GB

Above are Buffalobore factory offerings in 45 Super.

Just to clarify: Checking the .45 ACP ballistics on the DT website, you'll see he uses a 5" 1911 to test his .45 ACP; whereas with the 10mm he uses a 4.6" Glock 20 stock barrel. So, to evenly compare the velocities and penetration / expansion, you'd have to test the 10mm with a 5" 1911 barrel against the DT .45 ACP results. ;)

Bile
07-15-2008, 10:45
Velocity= trajectory. KE= penetration. When I look at ballistic charts and I see a velocity figure versus another I think faster bullet, flatter trajectory. When I see KE on chart, I think more KE, more penetration. I think the kinetic energy figure gives an estimate of the penetration of that particular projectile at that velocity. Velocity and energy are interdependant on each other. The higher the velocity the higher the energy. A KE figure gives me an idea of how deep it will penetrate into a body to reach the vitals. That is to say the same bullet with different KE figures, the one with more KE will penetrate deeper. KE is dependant of mass and velocity. Bullet design is also a factor and not taken into consideration for purposes of my ncoherent ramblings.
Kinetic Energy has almost nothing to do with penetration. Kinetic energy is the combined effect of velocity times mass (bullet weight). Bullet design and construction have far more affect on penetration than kinetic energy.

Velocity affects a bullet's performance at the target. If the bullet is lightly designed to open rapidly and expand to a wide diameter when making contact with the target; it will penetrate less than a bullet that is designed to expand slowly and slightly. It's simple, it is harder to push something with more frontal diameter and resistance through material than something that is narrower with less resistance. In fact, to an extent (there is a diminishing point), you can take two of the same bullets and shoot the target at different velocities, and the one with the lowest velocity will penetrate deeper than the one with the higher velocity. This is because the one with the lower velocity will cause the bullet to expand slower and to a narrower diameter than the one making contact at less velocity.

The opposite is true if the bullet being used doesn't expand at all; say a flat nosed FMJ bullet. In the case of this bullet, the higher the velocity the deeper the penetration.

So, forgive me if the writer quoted above was being "satirical" when he made his completely erroneous statement; but I could not resist the need to comment.

Oh, by the way. I think the perfect bullet would be a 10MM Auto 180 grain Barnes X-Bullet that would only expanded to it's full diameter (it is truncated to feed properly) when the target is hit and retain all of its weight as it travels through the entire target making a hole in and a big hole out and destroying everything in its path along the way. Right now Barnes almost has it right, but they need to increase the weight and decrease the expansion. When dealing with the slow velocities generated by handguns; it is massive tissue damage and hemorrhage that kills, not energy dump (KE) or any other such nonsense. Penetration is your friend; and the more penetration the better the friend.

agentl074
12-17-2008, 21:35
The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

---------------------------------------

I agree (1) that too little penetration is bad. And (2) alleged "over penetration" I don't worry about.

But, having seen BG's stopped instantly with one shallow penetrating COM pistol bullet, I know that there is more to "stopping power" than deep +12" penetration. Whether it's called shock, or stopping power, or whatever, it exists and isn't a myth.

If not, maybe the FBI can explain why deep penetrating .38 special 158gr RNL bullets don't have much stopping power, but much shallower penetrating .357 mag 125gr JHP's do?

Luckily, 10mm full-velocity ammo in the heavier weights have both deep penetration and decisive stopping power.

Cases do exist where the 125 fails to adequately penetrate the vitals of a thick body.

Light and fast may work better than slow and heavy and vice-versa depending on the body type. This is why I choose heavy and fast. 10mm cant loose in either case.

XTP's at Double Tap 10mm velocity will actually perform more like a controlled expansion bullet in real tissue. Gold Dots at 10mm velocities may do fine in ballistic gel - but in tissue and bone - they may over expand (according to Ferrel dog shootings).

I see no problem with combat distances and 10mm DT XTP's.... Beyond 21 feet, the 10mm may lose enough velocity where over penetration becomes a concern with XTPs. Load up with XTP's and push them as fast as you can!

Los Suenos
12-18-2008, 12:23
Makes sense to me...now where I can I find a 180 Gold Dot doing 980fps.

Please hold the "get a 40", I'm sticking to my 10's thanks, I can make it a 40 with a mag change thanks.

Is the Georgia Arms 180 Gold Dot running at 1150 fps the best comprimize?


I'd say the 180 GD from G-A is the best compromise for what you're looking for. You could handload but the 180 GD Speer loads themselves is going 1025 from a 4" in .40. Really would not make sense to download 10mm lower than factory .40 IMO. Speer is coming out with a 200 GD that is supposed to hit around the 980 mark in .40. Hornady has a 200 XTP that is medium velocity for 10mm. I'd stick with the 180 GD by G-A.

G26man
04-09-2009, 08:30
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

-- Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
by Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA
July 14, 1989

I know this is the prevailing wisdom these days, but I don't buy into it 100%. Think about it. This logic is based on the subject bleeding out. That does not happen quick enough to physically stop someone close to you with a deadly weapon. They dismiss "shock" too easily. I know its not been physically proven that shock matters, but something accounts for all the quick one shot stops that don't hit the vitals. I believe the feeling or in other words the psychological impact of being hit with a high energy projectile may easily have something to do with it. Just what was it that made the 125gr .357 magnum the legendary manstopper that it was? That round is clearly in the light/fast camp. I'm carrying 155gr when I carry my G20. Or maybe I'll get a 9x25 Dillon barrel for it.

Edit: Just noticed I essentially reposted what VCreed already said.

gator378
05-02-2009, 21:48
Quote: "Hand guns are not the instant killers everyone makes them out to be"

You got that right! A "real world" example: During "extended spike and doe season" last weekend in Runnels County, I had a 40-yard shot on an old fat doe.

Handgun was Ruger SBH, 7 1/2" barrel. Hornady factory ammo, 240 grain XTP. Box sez 1900 fps at muzzle.

The doe had been facing me, but I waited until she turned predominately broadside before dropping the hammer. The XTP to lower chest made about a 1 1/2" entry hole in her hide, punched a slightly smaller hole into rib cage, caught the top of heart and one lung before leaving a barely-bleeding exit hole about 1/2 that diameter in rear of opposite side ribs.

Did the doe drop right there? Hardly. She immediately turned 180 degrees and ran like the wind for a solid 60 yards before piling up. After taking virtually a "text book" shot through the heart from a premo .452" 240 grain bullet traveling at around 1800 fps.

Does not exactly give even a .45 fan (with only about 1/2 the velocity) the warm fuzzies, huh?
My friend an avid deer hunter gun and bow. Nailed a deer with the 30-06 which should have dropped dead. It ran a 100 or so yards then dropped. Nothing is guaranteed 100% in bullet performance.

twoblackbelts
05-04-2009, 03:13
Hello everyone! Ummm.....I'm a gunsmith and a new member and was just wondering if this guy is gone now. I sure hope not, as I have not laughed this hard in a long time.

Why is a 6-inch-barreled 10mm lawful to hunt bear with in Montana if it is an inadequate little weapon? I'd much prefer getting hit with a basketball in Los Angeles than a 10mm in the groin (or in Montana).

This thread is ridiculous. So many things can and do go wrong in any type of gun fight. There are so many enormous risks. All gun fights are about choosing the best among several very bad options. There are NO good outcomes in a gunfight. Even the best possible case, where the display of a gun causes the situation to de-escalate, is still a bad outcome, because lethal force entered the scenario, even if it wasn't used. All handgun rounds are under-powered and inadequate and none of them penetrate adequately. You want a round that will dump as much eneergy as possible, cause as much tissue damage as possible, and penetrate as deeply as possible, and that means either a rifle round or a shotgun blast. Any pistol round is going to come up short compared to a rifle or a shotgun. A bullet may have to go through multiple layers of clothing, skin and bone, plus inches of fat and muscle, to get through to anything where it might cause incapacitation. Or it might have to go through a car door, a piece of furniture, etc, plus bone, fat and muscle to hopefully get to a major nerve center, heart or blood vessel. NO handgun round (other than hunting rounds) can do that reliably.

Yes, sure, perhaps a bullet could go through a target and cause harm on the other side... but if some innocent person is so close to someone who is causing deadly harm, the situation is horrible, someone is almost certain to be getting hurt anyway. That should be a very rare situation, unless you're a SWAT sniper, in which case you might use special frangible ammo, etc for something like that. If you're wasting time planning for these extremely rare and dangerous situations, then you must train continuously and be absolutely sharp for all the other much more likely situations. Even these "likely" situations are things that few of us will ever encounter in our lives, thank God.

Use the most powerful round you can handle, always, unless you really are on a SWAT team and you anticipate dealing with hostages, shootouts in drug labs, shootouts on an airplane, etc. All pistols are inadequate weapons. It's what you have because you can't carry a rifle or a shotgun, both of which always have more penetration that pistols.

twoblackbelts
05-04-2009, 03:40
Here's some incontrovertible video showing the difference between our 10s and the "legendary" .45ACP:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exxPPbQc4FQ&NR=1 :wow:

cowboywannabe
05-14-2009, 09:20
with a frontal torso shot most any service caliber round can over penetrate easily.

ballistic gelotin is homogenous, humans are not.

a lung shot below the nipple area will encounter little muscle or fat, may stike a rib or pass between ribs, got through a lung which is quite hollow in terms of dense tissue and go out the back again maybe striking a rib or passing between them and strike little muscle. this is just anatomy.

if the round hits the pectoral muscle it will encounter dense muscle, maybe a rib, and possibly the scapula.

except for the sternum, heart, or pectorals, there isnt much desity in the upper part of the torso. while the abdomin will have more desity as will the limbs.

as stated before by others, more shots miss there intended target than hit it during a real life gun fight or other type of criminal attack.

shot placement is the deciding factor, bullet design is a far second place.

DarkDoor
05-20-2009, 22:47
hey there.

I'm new to these boards but a student of Ballistics.

From a purely scientific standpoint, over penetration is technically ballistic failure of a bullet to transfer all of its kinetic energy into its intended target. For maximum effectiveness, you really want whatever bullet to stop in its target, thus transferring all of its energy into, in this case, soft tissue. If we're talking about larger bore rounds, the energy transference and temporary cavitation can actually liquefy internal organs in a (usually small) radius around the permanent wound channel.

From my studies (which, admittedly, are still in the beginning stages, but I am working toward a degree in forensic ballistics and toolmark examination), I'd personally say that .45 ACP is my round of choice. As far as internal ballistic pressure, size and speed are concerned, a .45 is a big-ass bullet moving relatively slowly (800-1100 fps on average), while 10mm is a smaller object moving considerably faster (around 1400 fps on average) and even though it takes more to stop a larger object, the PSI upon terminal impact is roughly (again, on average) 300-400 PSI higher in 10mm and the rounds have a tendency to punch on through while the .45, with its larger surface area, is slowed in soft tissue more readily.

Take this, and add the lateral stress from expansion of the JHP ammo that most shooters use for defense, and you'll see the .45 bullets either stopping or bouncing around inside the center mass as opposed to the 10mm which creates a smaller wound channel, exits the target and embeds itself into a wall behind the BG.

However, despite all the numbers, math and speculation...if we're talking about raw stopping power, a hollow point is a hollow point and shot placement is key. You can drop a perp just as fast with a .22 as you can a .500S&W if the bullet is in the right place. The question is simply this: how big and bloody would you like the hole to be?

Here's some incontrovertible video showing the difference between our 10s and the "legendary" .45ACP:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exxPPbQc4FQ&NR=1 :wow:

On this, and I am in no way trying to start a .45 ACP vs 10mm debate here, it displays the same issue I have with .40 S&W. It's a great round, but the recoil is sharp as hell. The 10mm has an even sharper recoil, thus making it not the right round for me personally (.45 ACP has a softer recoil and is easier for me to control). Some people like Fords and some People like Toyotas and even others like Cadillacs. It's all about what you, as a shooter, can control the best and hit with most accurately. Again, it's all about shot placement. I just happen to be able to place my shots better with a .45 than a 10mm.

G26man
05-21-2009, 17:47
Welcome to GT DarkDoor, and good luck with your studies. You obviously know something about wound ballistics, however there is a huge brain trust here on the subject. You might want to visit the Caliber Corner sub forum here, you can't help but learn even more. One thing I will say is that I think you were overgeneralizing a bit. 10mm rounds come in several different weights and velocities. A 135gr or even 155gr full power JHP 10mm will most likely not overpenetrate, but rather fragment, delivering all its energy to the target. That doesn't mean it will do a better job of stopping someone because it might not penetrate far enough. There is SO MUCH to consider regarding this subject. I wish you all the best in your studies and I might be even a little bit jealous. :whistling:

G26man
05-21-2009, 17:55
Here's some incontrovertible video showing the difference between our 10s and the "legendary" .45ACP:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exxPPbQc4FQ&NR=1 :wow:
Exactly what does this prove, other than that the "cup and saucer" grip went away for good reason.

Kegs
01-10-2011, 06:06
My idea of the right level of penetration is that the bullet stops just on the inside of a animal hide before it has a chance to exit.

That bullet would be as high of energy as possible.

That bullet would expand as much as possible.

That bullet would be as heavy as possible.

Have a good day.

inspectorjj
07-03-2011, 12:24
My idea of the right level of penetration is that the bullet stops just on the inside of a animal hide before it has a chance to exit.

That bullet would be as high of energy as possible.

That bullet would expand as much as possible.

That bullet would be as heavy as possible.

Have a good day.

Simple and to the point except for the penetration statement. One item I would like to add to the three bullet points above is accuracy. If these items are not your priority for either self defense or hunting, it would be my assumption that you are on the wrong forum. Overpenetration is like overkill. While there are several levels of injury, there is only one level of dead.

voiceofreason
12-17-2011, 16:27
Never done penetration tests with 10mm. With other calibers, though, I've found that unless you're using a heavyweight or bonded bullet once you pass a certain velocity threshold, you're a lot less likely to get overpenetration because the bullet expands like mad or just splatters in the target.

+1

I'd run 180grain for full power 10mm loads.

#1: hit your target
#2: get enough penetration
#3: expansion would be nice

#4: with 10mm, you only have to worry about #1

G26man
12-22-2011, 08:54
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

-- Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
by Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA
July 14, 1989

I disagree. The FBI as well as their pet research house Firearms Tactical (Fackler, etc.) have an agenda IMO to promote larger diameter heavier bullets as an excuse for their poor performance with their 9mm service guns re. the Miami shootout. I don't know about you but I am not 12" thick, and I have no doubt the 7-8" depth and 5"" diameter gaping sphere of goo that used to be my internals after being liquefied by a 1600fps 135gr Nosler would in fact put me or just about anyone down, and not over penetrate to boot, although I agree overpenetration is not something to worry about short of rifle calibers. The remaining velocity from a handgun would most likely not be sufficient to cause grave damage.

Furthermore, temporary cavity DOES wound, given enough velocity. The generally accepted threshold is 2000fps. A G20 with a 9x25 barrel and light bullets would produce those velocities so handguns can in fact would via temporary cavity.

Furthermore who says WOUNDING is the only mechanism that stops bad guys. Could it not be that the felt shock of a high velocity fragmenting bullet would not have a psychological component that could aid in convincing the BG to stop? I don't know, do you? History shows lots of BGs were stopped with one shot from a light fast fragmenting 125gr 357 magnum slug.

Edit: Sorry I just realized this is an old thread and I had already posted some of what I reiterated here. Sorry for the duplication.

Jitterbug
12-22-2011, 09:21
I've only been shot a couple of times...

One time I was hit in the side of the head with a single #6 pellet during a pheasant hunt. I don't know the range it was fired from, there was a lot of guy's doing a lot of shooting and it probably bounced off of a tree, before hitting me or otherwise was fired from a long distance, since there where no shooters on the side I was hit from. So I'm guessing it somehow bounced off the tree.

The pellet only broke skin and didn't penetrate bone, at least not very much. One of my buddies dug it out with my Swiss Army knife, but, I'll tell you this, it "felt" like I had been hit upside the head with a high speed baseball, bad enough to knock my off the pheasant I was shooing at... got him on the next shot though.

So...there was a definite whack to the side of the head, I can only imagine what a full on impact would have been like...or something larger then a #6 pellet, but I have no doubt it would have the potential to knock a person down...or at least rattle one enough to cause one to fall.

Not scientific I know, and before anyone else says it...now you know what's wrong with Jitterbug.

The other time I was shot was once again with an errant pellet fired from at least a 100 yards away on a dove hunt, and it didn't penetrate the seat of my hunting pants.

Tazz10m
12-22-2011, 14:13
"Stopping" is cause by catastrophic damage. That's it. Simple. Ask an experienced deer hunter what brings a deer down the quickest... a shot that "dumps all its energy and stops" or one that passes all the way thru and takes the heart out with it? They will always say; The one that passes all the way thru. It doesn't matter if it's a bullet, or an arrow. It is the "cutting and tearing" the actual "damaging" that works. If it was mere "penetration" archers would be able to use simple target arrows and be successful, but they don't, they use big nasty razor blades tied to the end of a very fast moving relatively heavy stick.

hubcap500
12-23-2011, 12:16
Over-penetration is only a factor if what's beyond the BG is not something(one) that should be hit. Always know what is between you and the target and beyond the target.

Tazz10m
12-23-2011, 13:59
over-penetration is only a factor if what's beyond the bg is not something(one) that should be hit. Always know what is between you and the target and beyond the target.

bingo!!! We have a winner!!!

Tazz10m
11-22-2012, 21:10
Note: This post is a series of posts from another thread in Mas Ayoob's forum here on GT, but it's being brought forward to this thread "Overpeneration" in "The 10 Ring" forum to be continued as it better belongs here than where it was originally.

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Old 11-20-2012, 13:45 #1
Billy10mm
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For Mas: Overpenetration
Mas,

I'm sure you've seen it; the "I don't carry a (insert powerful handgun cartridge here) because I don't want to kill my neighbor after my bullet passes through the person I'm shooting at." argument.

Can you cite any cases where a relatively common automatic handgun round (let's say anything from .38spc to .45 super/10mm) passed through the center of mass (body for all intents and purposes) of its intended target (in this case a human being) and still carried enough energy to kill an innocent bystander? While I'm certain there are cases where bullets either grazed or passed through relatively thin areas (arm, neck, calf, etc) of tissue and went on to do very bad things, I'm having a hard believing and certainly FINDING any cases where a real COM shot came out the other side and went on to hurt someone. If you can cite a case, do you happen to know how often something like this happens or has happened?

My argument is that handgun bullets are relatively poor man-stoppers and that a bullet passing through someone COM is giving up a great deal of energy doing so - enough that I cannot believe that bullet would then travel an unknown distance and critically wound another individual. The Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness paper from the FBI supports this position (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf)
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Old 11-20-2012, 13:53 #2
Mas Ayoob
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Billy, the problem with over-penetration isn't so much the relative power of the handgun cartridge, but the bullet configuration. The New York Times reported the significant number of innocents (including brother officers) who had been shot with 115 grain FMJ 9mm bullets that went through and through the bad guys before they hit the good guys. It was this that finally led NYPD to switch from ball ammo to Gold Dot hollow points 13 or 14 years ago. It's one of the main reasons virtually every police department now issues expanding bullet ammunition.

A search under this topic in GT should provide you with more detailed information.

Best,
Mas


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Old Yesterday, 13:08 #3
Tazz10m
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Here is a pretty good discussion on the subject that pretty much covers all the bases:

Overpenetration?

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292509
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When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.


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Old Yesterday, 14:49 #4
Mas Ayoob
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Welcome, Tazz.

Anything from darkness to tunnel vision to sheetrock behind the perp to the perp's own body can block the shooter's view of an innocent bystander in the background. It's something we can't ignore. If the bystander is hit by a bullet the shooter knew or should have known was likely to overpenetrate, well, look up the definition of "deliberate indifference."

Many pooh-pooh the problem by saying misses are more likely. The miss and the over-penetrating bullet are apples and oranges. The stress and other difficulties of the shooter legitimately returning fire against a criminal are not hard to substantiate in court, and are likely to be found to be excusable if the miss strikes a bystander. A bullet the shooter knew beforehand was likely to exit and strike anyone behind his only predictable backstop, the body of the offender? Not so much.

best,
Mas


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Old Yesterday, 16:59 #5
Tazz10m
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Hi Mas, nice to chat with you again. Last time was at the SHOT Show back in '96 at the Haarts booth.

I hear what you're saying, which is why i'm so into proper bullet/load selection, etc. There is a bit of a dilemma that each of us that aims to defend ourselves inevitably has to deal with and that is the fact that we never really know everything we are going to be up against in a personal defense situation, and so it so important to try to research and pick what might be best for the widest variety of situation/target/barrier combinations we might encounter. We never know what kind of clothing an attacker might wear, or if the attacker is going to be using cover to attack from, (like a car), or how massive and solid and "big boned" an attacker might be. Where i live, in any given day, at any moment, the attacker could be a big huge human, or a good sized black bear... or a little "pip squeak"... There is no time to "switch loads" for one or the other.

If someone attacks you with a gun from the cover of a car and has you pinned down it's best to have a weapon/load combo capable of at least having a chance of punching through the car and still having enough "damaging potential" to hit the guy and stop him. One never knows how much bone or whatever might hinder that process.

So, my school of thought is to have the most powerful and versatile weapon that is still practical for "everyday" use. For me, right now, that's a Glock 29 with a 20 round mag filled with 200gr Black Talons. I figure i'm lucky if i get 900 fps out of the combo. Personally, i'd rather have them kicking out at 1200 fps, but that's another story. Fact is i like the bullet design (a heavy bullet with hard "knuckles" on the leading edge to potentially break bone and "punch through" followed by the razor sharp "talons" if i get lucky on the expansion, and enough left over "umph" to hopefully nail and damage the spine) and it's proven to work pretty well in the wide variety of testing i've done.

At any rate... the idea is to be able to punch through whatever is in the way and get to the so-called "vitals" and do as much incapacitating damage to the attacker(s) as possible in order to "shut him/her/them down" and "stop" the attack as quickly and efficiently as possible.

An FMJ or "ball round" in a handgun is absolutely out of the question as it's highly likely to just "zip through", do minimal damage to vitals, and keep going with plenty of left over velocity into who-knows-what or whom that is not the intended target, the attacker. It's just irresponsible from the start, in my thinking.

With a properly designed hollow point bullet and velocity, the bullet is most likely going to flatten out or otherwise change shape significantly after hitting. This means that if it does penetrate beyond the intended attacker, it is likely already lost almost all of its velocity and that combined with the flattened front end or tumbling, etc., is not likely to do any real significant damage to whatever it might hit. In other words, it has lost pretty much all of it's "damage-ability"... and so, not likely to really cause much harm, if any, to "innocents"... and any damage it might cause could more than likely be "fixed up" by a good doctor.

So, "overpenetration that causes damage to an innocent" is really, more or less, in the same category of a "well intentioned miss", except the miss has the potential to do a whole lot more damage to an innocent.

A good example is in a crowded theater or shopping mall situation. You can't "miss", BUT, you HAVE to do SOMETHING... and one has to be instantly ready to properly and accurately act if "talking the attacker down" doesn't work. And, frankly, based on experience, sometimes the "talking step", should just be completely skipped.

At a certain point, over-thinking a dire emergency situation is potentially going to get WAY more innocent people killed than a well intentioned miss... and so "you just got to shoot 'em".

Sorry for the long post.
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When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.


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Old Yesterday, 17:14 #6
Mas Ayoob
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Since '96? Damn, Brook, we're both old.

I think we both agree that FMJ is a very poor choice for self-defense today, and that having chosen a bullet designed to stay in the body of the offender would be a viable defense to an accusation of deliberate indifference in our use/choice of certain ammunition.

I think we would also agree that "over-thinking" in a split-second crisis could lead to fatal hesitation, which is why we need to spend the time beforehand to think these things out.

I gotta ask: what 20-round Glock 10mm magazine are you using in your G29, and how do you conceal it?


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Old Yesterday, 23:05 #7
Tazz10m
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Yeah we're old.... and feeling it, too! I was fairly young, then! Hahaha... let's see how good your memory is... Do you remember me bowing down to you and saying; "Oh, Mas... Oh, Mas... You're The Man... I read everything you write..." when we first met? Hahaha....

Yes, i agree that an FMJ or any "hard solid non-expanding bullet" is a very poor choice for self-defense out of a handgun today, BUT, based on my experience and so-called understanding of anatomy, fighting for life, weapon design/construction, law and litigation, etc., i don't really buy in to the "choose a bullet designed to stay in the body of the offender" school of thought, despite the reality that "it would be a viable defense to an accusation of deliberate indifference in our use/choice of certain ammunition".

Mas, it's a myth. It's a bullet designed by a committee of lawyers... not by those who really want to "save the children". It's a bullet designed to be "found"... not a bullet designed to have "effective stopping potential". ("Stopping power" is also a myth... as is "energy dump"... a terrible use of words... i don't want to dump the energy, i want to "use" it... effectively.) I do a bit of bullet/load design. There is so much too it that i don't know how to write up an explanation of the hows and whys of this specific subject without writing a book on it. There are just that many variables. A bullet/load to "stop inside" and still do the kind damage that needs to be done is really not likely to get the job done that needs to be done. It may work fine in the average situation, or the "typical situation", but, there are so many "specific situations" that that bullet is not necessarily going to work for the situation you or i need it to.

I've studied the hell out of this subject and discussed it at length with Rex Applegate and "experienced others heavy into the subject", and we all agree that bullets, arrows, and knives, that do not penetrate all the way through and cause massive blood pressure drop do not work as well as those that do. Bullets that are designed to "dump energy" may cause a significant amount of localized damage, but, they rely heavily on shot placement... and in most "personal defense" situations, "shot placement" while "golden" is still a huge luxury. And we that defend and protect the innocent are just going to have to get or become better lawyers. "Talons" got trashed by lawyers, but one of the great things about the design is that because of the "talons" they tend to get caught in the clothing on the way out and not continue on. So, we get two holes that are better than one, and a bullet that is likely to be caught before it goes too far.

As for my G29 and G20, i use the G20 mags and put a Grahams Engineering +4 mag extension on, then put one up the pipe for a total of 20. The Grahams has been modified to have all "corners and edges" rounded so that they don't nail the "funny bone" in my elbow or other wise hurt me or stick out. On my G29 i also use a A&G Grip Extender on a G20 mag. As far as concealability, i can easily conceal either gun in a bathing suit and t-shirt and have done so for about 20+ years... although it's probably best i don't say how here in a public forum. (Call me, i'll tell you.) But, over the years i've gotten frustrated with others holster designs shortcomings, so i designed and made one that works fantastic, and now am seriously considering putting them out on the market.

Here is my G29... sorry, i can't show the holster... yet...
http://brookstactical.com/media/TazzG29cmoB.jpg
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When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.



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Old Yesterday, 23:27 #8
Mas Ayoob
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Brooks, I'll certainly look forward to seeing the holster that hides that gun and that magazine in a bathing suit.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on over-penetration. It isn't just about "killing power" or the term you hate (in use before either of us were born), "stopping power." Defensive firearm employment is, in the bigger picture, about protecting the innocent from harm. A bullet designed to shoot completely through the only backstop the good guys are likely to have -- the body of the bad guy -- endangers innocent bystanders we'll be predictably unable to see.

Those bystanders are likely to be family members in an armed citizen/off duty cop situation, and brother officers in an on-duty shooting situation.

Wishing you a happy and safe Thanksgiving,
Mas


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Old Today, 12:39 #9
Tazz10m
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"Killing power" and "hate", your words, not mine. And, yes, a bullet that is designed to shoot completely through might still have the potential to harm others after passing through... might... but that doesn't mean it was designed or intended to have that much potential to harm. Likewise, a bullet designed to not pass through might still have the potential to pass all the way through and harm innocents. It all depends on what that bullet encounters along the way. If the area hit on the body is thin enough, it will pass through and continue on. How much potential to harm is anybodies guess. And if it does, it falls into the category of "mistake" or "miss". We are human. We are going to make mistakes. We, as humans, need to learn how to allow for our "allowable mistakes"... and, of course, learn from them. If we don't, we will freeze when we need to move, and we will not stop or otherwise properly handle the real problems, and we will not learn... we will cease to grow... and we will fade away. Such is the nature of over-thinking. Sometimes a person just has to make due with what they've got. A good person always does the best they can. As a designer/inventor/manufacturer i try to come up with the "magic bullet". Others do to. I'm not saying it's impossible, i'm saying that as yet it doesn't exist.

Mas, once upon a time i was in a gun fight. I was very nicely asking a guy if he needed help. He shot at me. I made the decision to shoot back because i believed i HAD to, and i could. But the guy was in a car and using it for cover. I HAD to point shoot out the window of my car, over my shoulder backwards, and try to punch diagonally through the side of the guys car, through the back of his seat, and into him, to potentially stop him from his attacking me and the girl i was with. On the other side of his car were "innocents" that could not be seen. This was about a week after the LA Riots. I was "trained", had studied a BUNCH of the writing of a guy named "Mas Ayoob" (among others), and was quite good at point shooting, (although, i had never practiced shooting over my shoulder). My choice of weapon was a Glock 20 and the ammo was Winchester Silver Tip in 10mm. (WAY too much muzzle flash, i soon found out, btw.)

Now, what choice of weapon and ammo would you have chosen and why, and what would you have done? Bear in mind that it is around 1991, you are not a LEO, and the Los Angeles County laws said you are not allowed to carry a loaded weapon in your car... oh, and there have been wide spread full on riots going on with lots of people getting killed for over a week... and you just came out of the "hills" after a night hike, you just got into your car, and now you are pinned down and being fired upon. And, remember, you have to make your choice of weapon/ammo at least a month before having knowledge of the exact situation that you now find yourself in.

Happy Thanksgiving, bro!
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Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

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When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.


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Old Today, 15:23 #10
Mas Ayoob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazz10m

""Killing power" and "hate", your words, not mine. And, yes, a bullet that is designed to shoot completely through might still have the potential to harm others after passing through... might... but that doesn't mean it was designed or intended to have that much potential to harm. Likewise, a bullet designed to not pass through might still have the potential to pass all the way through and harm innocents. It all depends on what that bullet encounters along the way. If the area hit on the body is thin enough, it will pass through and continue on. How much potential to harm is anybodies guess. And if it does, it falls into the category of "mistake" or "miss". We are human. We are going to make mistakes. We, as humans, need to learn how to allow for our "allowable mistakes"... and, of course, learn from them. If we don't, we will freeze when we need to move, and we will not stop or otherwise properly handle the real problems, and we will not learn... we will cease to grow... and we will fade away. Such is the nature of over-thinking. Sometimes a person just has to make due with what they've got. A good person always does the best they can. As a designer/inventor/manufacturer i try to come up with the "magic bullet". Others do to. I'm not saying it's impossible, i'm saying that as yet it doesn't exist.

Mas, once upon a time i was in a gun fight. I was very nicely asking a guy if he needed help. He shot at me. I made the decision to shoot back because i believed i HAD to, and i could. But the guy was in a car and using it for cover. I HAD to point shoot out the window of my car, over my shoulder backwards, and try to punch diagonally through the side of the guys car, through the back of his seat, and into him, to potentially stop him from his attacking me and the girl i was with. On the other side of his car were "innocents" that could not be seen. This was about a week after the LA Riots. I was "trained", had studied a BUNCH of the writing of a guy named "Mas Ayoob" (among others), and was quite good at point shooting, (although, i had never practiced shooting over my shoulder). My choice of weapon was a Glock 20 and the ammo was Winchester Silver Tip in 10mm. (WAY too much muzzle flash, i soon found out, btw.)

Now, what choice of weapon and ammo would you have chosen and why, and what would you have done? Bear in mind that it is around 1991, you are not a LEO, and the Los Angeles County laws said you are not allowed to carry a loaded weapon in your car... oh, and there have been wide spread full on riots going on with lots of people getting killed for over a week... and you just came out of the "hills" after a night hike, you just got into your car, and now you are pinned down and being fired upon. And, remember, you have to make your choice of weapon/ammo at least a month before having knowledge of the exact situation that you now find yourself in.

Happy Thanksgiving, bro!"


You covered a good bit of waterfront there, Brooks. Responding more or less in order to your points:

Certainly any bullet, if it was just a peripheral hit or if it passed through lung and intercostal spaces on an anorexic junkie, could exit. However, no responsible manufacturer lists "shooting all the way through the bad" guy as a design parameter, since for reasons I've already described, that would be irresponsible.

However, it's obvious that since over-penetration is a well-known side effect of using certain ammunition, it could certainly be construed that use of that ammunition constituted deliberate indifference.

Since you yourself admit that the opponent could be a flyweight or a heavyweight, it seems impossible to design a bullet/load that will "always" exit, but without power to cause the corollary death of a bystander. Using a load that meets FBI/general modern law enforcement standards seems to show good care and due diligence.

Good luck with that "magic bullet" you've been looking for. Don't feel bad; none of the rest of us have found it either.

I don't address hypotheticals like the one you bring up, here, partly because they tend to infinite "what ifs" and partly because, frankly, my work keeps me busy enough analyzing real gunfights. However, since auto body/window glass penetration is one of the parameters of the FBI protocols, I remain comfortable carrying defensive ammunition which fits that profile.

Brooks, you may recall when our host Eric opened the GATE section, clearly outlining its purpose and parameters in its opening post, here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1189556
You know that the GATE section is geared to giving the original poster a quick answer, since the whole rest of Glock Talk is open to multiple-poster debate. You posted "good idea" when Eric explained that in the post linked immediately above. (Post #29 on 9-13-10.)

You and I have violated that rule with the above dialogue, so I'm going to close the thread here. We've both explained our positions and disagreements, and it's starting to go 'round and 'round, the exact sort of thing GATE was intended to prevent. However, if you feel it needs more discussion than it has already had here and elsewhere in Glock Talk over the years, you're more than welcome to open a new thread in Carry Issues or Caliber Corner. PM me when and if you do, and I'll be happy to participate.

Cordially,
Mas

Tazz10m
11-22-2012, 22:49
Quote:
Originally posted by Mas Ayoob

"You covered a good bit of waterfront there, Brooks. Responding more or less in order to your points:

Certainly any bullet, if it was just a peripheral hit or if it passed through lung and intercostal spaces on an anorexic junkie, could exit. However, no responsible manufacturer lists "shooting all the way through the bad" guy as a design parameter, since for reasons I've already described, that would be irresponsible.

However, it's obvious that since over-penetration is a well-known side effect of using certain ammunition, it could certainly be construed that use of that ammunition constituted deliberate indifference.

Since you yourself admit that the opponent could be a flyweight or a heavyweight, it seems impossible to design a bullet/load that will "always" exit, but without power to cause the corollary death of a bystander. Using a load that meets FBI/general modern law enforcement standards seems to show good care and due diligence.

Good luck with that "magic bullet" you've been looking for. Don't feel bad; none of the rest of us have found it either.

I don't address hypotheticals like the one you bring up, here, partly because they tend to infinite "what ifs" and partly because, frankly, my work keeps me busy enough analyzing real gunfights. However, since auto body/window glass penetration is one of the parameters of the FBI protocols, I remain comfortable carrying defensive ammunition which fits that profile.

Brooks, you may recall when our host Eric opened the GATE section, clearly outlining its purpose and parameters in its opening post, here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1189556
You know that the GATE section is geared to giving the original poster a quick answer, since the whole rest of Glock Talk is open to multiple-poster debate. You posted "good idea" when Eric explained that in the post linked immediately above. (Post #29 on 9-13-10.)

You and I have violated that rule with the above dialogue, so I'm going to close the thread here. We've both explained our positions and disagreements, and it's starting to go 'round and 'round, the exact sort of thing GATE was intended to prevent. However, if you feel it needs more discussion than it has already had here and elsewhere in Glock Talk over the years, you're more than welcome to open a new thread in Carry Issues or Caliber Corner. PM me when and if you do, and I'll be happy to participate.

Cordially,
Mas"



Sorry, Mas, my mistake on the rules. And sorry if i wasn't clear enough in my writing and gave you the wrong impression of what i was trying to say. I'm not trying to go round and round with your or otherwise be a pain in the rear. I'm trying to discuss this so that we all learn something and advance the science and make a better world. And i thank you for your wisdom in this discussion as it is an honor to discuss it with you. It was a great honor to meet you, shake your hand, and have a good laugh. It was also an honor to have you shoot a 3/4" group with that Kahr PM40 with my "AGrip" on it. I figure i should tell you that now while i have the chance. My point is that i respect you and i respect your opinion and i want you to know that. There are several gun writers and gun mag editors i have very little if any respect for... and some of them know who they are. You might have noticed, i don't advertise in any gun magazines anymore and i don't go out of my way to smooze the writers to write about my products. That said...

I agree with your statement:

"...no responsible manufacturer lists "shooting all the way through the bad" guy as a design parameter, since for reasons I've already described, that would be irresponsible.

However, it's obvious that since over-penetration is a well-known side effect of using certain ammunition, it could certainly be construed that use of that ammunition constituted deliberate indifference."

I guess i should have better clarified that i do not and was not trying to advocate the intentional use of a bullet/load that will "always" exit.

What i do advocate is a bullet/load design that "gets the job done in a properly effective way". That doesn't mean the bullet always has to penetrate all the way through every time, etc. Form follows function, and always pick the right tool for the job. I understand that there are now bullet/loads that are designed to not over penetrate bad guys, but that also are able to potentially penetrate a car door or car window and still be effective on a bad guy and not overpenetrate the bad guy. I think that's great. It's a great accomplishment.

Those bullets/loads were designed for what they were designed for, BUT, my big point is that while those bullet/loads may be ideal for a wide range of law enforcement or "typical" personal defense use, it doesn't mean those bullets/loads are ideal for the personal defense use of people like myself who are out in the woods a LOT and so have to deal with possible defense against attacks by wild animals like black bear, 150 lb wolves, cougar, etc., as well as attacks by people who might be spun up on meth, etc., and in areas that have a LOT of homes and people around.

My point is that a bullet/load that is designed specifically to stay in the body of an attacker every time is not likely to also work well on the bear or wolf and so is not likely to be a persons best choice for a regular carry load.

My opinion, is that the load should be powerful enough to expand, cut, and penetrate far enough in a black bear and still have the weight, energy, and what i call "umph" to knock the crap out of the spine and drop that animal. And a load like that is likely to have the potential penetrate all the way through a human front to back if it misses all the bone. And if it does miss all the bone and also the vitals for "stopping", it really helps if the bullet exits and helps facilitate massive drop in blood pressure. If that bullet can be "caught" in the bad guys clothes on the way out, awesome... and, as i said before, the "talons" on a "Black Talon" type bullet help facilitate that. And, like i also said, it is more then likely that after exiting, that bullet/load is not likely to have enough potential to really hurt any "innocent" it might it. And, sometimes, a situation might call for a person to have to take a chance on injury of an innocent in order to take out an attacker bent on killing a bunch of people in a theater, shopping mall, school, etc.

No, it would not be the best choice for use in an airliner, but, it maybe the ideal choice for use in the situations i and others encounter on a regular everyday basis. "Deliberate indifference" has nothing to do with it. "The reality of what it actually takes to save the children" does. And the issue of deliberate indifference really shouldn't even come up unless a bullet that passed all the way through an attacker and still hurt or killed an innocent person. If i am the one that fires the bullet, i am the one that has to answer for what it does... and i am willing to do that... i am willing to take that responsibility... just like if i missed an attacker and hit a innocent directly. And if i get accused of deliberate indifference because of the way i acted, that is what i will have to face. But i would like to think i would have someone like YOU, Mas, in my corner to help defend me as there are so few people in the world that actually understand this stuff.

As for shooting situation that you called a "hypothetical"; that was not a hypothetical, it was a real gun fight that really happened, and i was in it, and i won it. And i was basically asking you to analyze it based on what we are talking about here because it fit in exactly with what we are talking about. I would not give you a hypothetical to respond to. I think hypotheticals are stupid except for imagination purposes, etc.

Thanks again, Mas, hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

4949shooter
11-23-2012, 08:57
Tazz, I don't see the point in all this. There are two philosophies out there, the "penetration" guys and the "energy dump" guys. I've been around long enough to know that we will never get both sides to agree.

I think you are asking for a bullet that will do the job of penetrating / killing a large animal, like a bear, with a bullet that will "stop" a human attacker. We don't have bullets that will do both satisfactorily 100% of the time. Such is my dilemma, for when I carry my G20 in "bear country" when I am hunting predators at night, I would like to have a bullet capable of penetration, hopefully through bone. Then, when I stop for a snack on my way home at the all night mini-mart/gas station (stop & rob), I would want that same bullet to not overpenetrate on a human torso in the event the store is robbed late at night and there are innocents in the store. I understand what you are asking for completely, but I think the best bullet would be a "jack of all trades and master of none." I can load heavy for hunting and light for SD, but unfortunately I can't load for both.

I like the idea that there are now bullets that will penetrate vehicle windshields and still expand nicely in human tissue.

I apologize for "butting in." I know your post was intended for Mas, but I feel partly responsible because this was brought up in my thread regarding your 200 grain Talon loads.

Take care and have a good day. :wavey:

Tazz10m
11-23-2012, 15:24
Tazz, I don't see the point in all this. There are two philosophies out there, the "penetration" guys and the "energy dump" guys. I've been around long enough to know that we will never get both sides to agree.

I think you are asking for a bullet that will do the job of penetrating / killing a large animal, like a bear, with a bullet that will "stop" a human attacker. We don't have bullets that will do both satisfactorily 100% of the time. Such is my dilemma, for when I carry my G20 in "bear country" when I am hunting predators at night, I would like to have a bullet capable of penetration, hopefully through bone. Then, when I stop for a snack on my way home at the all night mini-mart/gas station (stop & rob), I would want that same bullet to not overpenetrate on a human torso in the event the store is robbed late at night and there are innocents in the store. I understand what you are asking for completely, but I think the best bullet would be a "jack of all trades and master of none." I can load heavy for hunting and light for SD, but unfortunately I can't load for both.

I like the idea that there are now bullets that will penetrate vehicle windshields and still expand nicely in human tissue.

I apologize for "butting in." I know your post was intended for Mas, but I feel partly responsible because this was brought up in my thread regarding your 200 grain Talon loads.

Take care and have a good day. :wavey:


4949shooter, you are not "butting in" at all. I welcome your input... and, hey, it's good. You "get it".

I keep repeating the same principles over and over not just to teach them, but, to use them to help bring us back and keep us all focused on "reality". Reality ALWAYS takes precedence. Some conversations about topics/issues are going to go back and forth and back and forth and NEED to in order to boil them down to a tangible, useful, product. It doesn't matter if it is "policy" or a product that is going to be manufactured and put on the market. Some are "no-brainers", and some are a pain in the backside, but, none-the-less, NEED to be put out because of societal demand. In business it's called "customer demand". It's the same process that helped create this great country and the Constitution and Bill of Rights... and our laws... and how they are enforced... and the physical products we use to help enforce them, and how those products are considered and used.... which, brings us to where we are now. The principles are well established in reality and they apply across the board. "Values" are also important, but, are much more subjective. And those that truly understand them actually don't argue about them. It's pretty amazing, i think.

I don't think it's impossible to boil this subject of bullet/load design. I think it's quit possible. And i think it not only should be done, but needs to be done. Mas is one of the foremost experts on this subject and, reality being what it is, we don't know how much longer we are going to have Mas around to help us with this. Right, Mas?

Rex Applegate is gone. But much of his knowledge lives on... in the form of the contents of his books and videos, and that which people like me who are still alive have in our memories what we gained from our extensive discussion on this topic with him. He has had such an influence on me and the design of my products that i feel like i should put his signature on many of them... but, of course, i don't... for a bunch of reasons. But that's another topic.

On the topic of bullet/load, we don't have to "get both sides to agree". What we do have is a fiduciary responsibility to be as correct as possible. And if we don't make every effort to be as correct as possible, guess what? We can be accused of that dreaded "deliberate indifference".

We also have a fiduciary responsibility to come home to our families and provide for them. If don't, who will... the government? Lawyers? Politicians? Megalomaniacs?

I almost died about a year ago. We are talking about as close as it gets. I've almost died several times. When it happens your life does "flash before you" in one form or another. And after, you really start thinking about life. It's pretty amazing to say the least. One thing that really got to me was that i realized that there was so much that i actually know about that i keep my mouth shut about that i should actually speak about before i'm gone. One of the main reasons i kept my mouth shut about them was because they were "uncomfortable" for most people to deal with.

Now, after almost dying...again, my attitude is a bit different. I'm going to speak out. I'm going to tell it like it is. And if people don't like it, toooo bad. Those that should tough it out, do their homework, take a stand, and speak out, but don't, and instead wuss out, shrink back, and shut up; deserve Darwin Awards.

I have a friend right now, who is sitting paralyzed in a wheelchair, crapping in a colostomy bag, stuck, because, for whatever reason, he chose to try to "talk" to a guy in the Tacoma Mall who was shooting people up with an AK, instead of taking cover and shooting him like he could have, and should have. I also had at least 3 other family members in that mall at that exact time, and some other friends... aside from my friends who are cops that responded to the shooting. Why did my friend try to talk to the guy first? Because his head was full of a bunch of crap. He was trying to be "too careful"... he should have been "more careful", did the best he could to avoid innocents, and just shot the guy and dropped him.

How does that saying go; I'd rather be convicted by 12, than carried by 6? Yup. Maybe we should add; "...or stuck in a wheel chair crapping in a bag."

If you are dead, you can not take care of your wife and kids... and you can't pass on to the living what you learned from making mistakes and dying.

A bullet that is designed with "talons" or "claws" tends to lose pretty much all of its velocity after it passes through the last layer of skin/hide.

Bullets that "cut" tend to do better at stopping an attacker than bullets that merely mushroom/expand and "push/smash/mash".

Velocity is generally needed to make a bullet expand and perform as needed.

So, the real question is: What is the velocity and damage potential of a given bullet/load that has exited? And; What actual injuries from exited bullets/loads are there and what are those bullets/loads?

It's the process of elimination. (Sorry, no pun intended.) And it's the reason we don't use FMJ's, Ball Rounds, etc., despite the fact our military does. It's also the reason we keep coming up with new calibers like 10mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 5.7 x 28, etc. It's also the reason i'm involved with the deveopment of a laser gun that works like a Tazer but can drop someone from about 400 yards away and doesn't have the wires. The power setting is also adjustable. How cool is that? Set your Phasers to "stun".

4949shooter
11-23-2012, 15:48
Tazz I am sorry for your friend, and I am sorry for whatever health issues you have or had. I hope and pray that you are well.

I agree we need penetration and expansion. I would love to have a "do all" bullet that will serve me in the woods and on the streets.

Is overpenetration a concern? I think it is, at least here in NJ, the most crowded state in the country. For a rural state trooper or sheriff's officer, overpenetration may not be as much of an issue. This would depend on location and circumstances as well. I fully agree, with someone shooting up a mall or a theatre, we have to take decisive action, doing the best we can under the lousy circumstances of having innocents, and possibly our own family members present.

Let me ask, how would you load coming home from the woods hunting predators, with the possibility of engaging an armed felon on the way home? The Silvertip is one answer, though it may not do both jobs satisfactorily (may be too soft for large animal defense).

As far as having a fiduciary responsibility to the shooting public and even law enforcement, I understand where you are coming from.

Tazz10m
11-23-2012, 18:09
Thanks 4949shooter, i appreciate it.

I didn't almost die from a health problem. I was spearfishing and getting back into it after a few years and testing out some new equipment in the process and found out the hard way that although ones old wetsuit hood was in good condition and felt nice and fine and comfortable, it was actually a bit too tight and cut off the blood/oxygen flow to my brain............ found myself hyperventilating and didn't know why, and, couldn't stop no matter how hard i tried. Lucky/Blessed for me i learned long ago how to listen to that still small voice in my head (that was eventually yelling at me! hahaha) and i managed to get that stupid hood off my head before it was too late...(really, really, REALLY, close to "gone"). I could literally feel the "shape of my brain" for about a week after... and my thinking wasn't all that sharp and clear for about a month after... but, everything seems to be just fine now... all systems are "go".

As for the bullets and overpenetration, overpenetration is always a concern, in my book, just as is missing. What might amount to a "little bonk" to an adult could conceivably be a "huge bonk" and harm a little baby. One thing i've learned from doing ballistics testing is that "bullets can do really weird an unpredictable things". Never underestimate them. Always be concerned.

I live out in the woods... THICK woods... rain forest. A bear or cougar, coyote, feral dog, or meth crazed idiot or otherwise warped minded idiot could jump out of the woods at any time. I'm also pretty sure there are a lot of Muslims that would LOVE to kill me. Hey, what can i say? I do what i want, go where i want, say what i want, and deal with whatever. I truly live free... thanks to God and America.

If i am specifically going into the woods and it's not just a spur of the moment thing, i go get either my G20 and load it with at least 180gr JSP kick'n out at 1350fps, or, i grab my shotgun with buckshot and slugs... oh, and what amounts to a short sword. I always have some sort of very quickly accessible and "capable" small bladed knife on me. Out in these woods, they are so thick, that an attack by a bear or whatever could initiate instantly from "in your face close". And i most often go out alone. Often, i literally have to crawl on hands and knees. And since i go where humans rarely ever go, if something happens to me like a broken leg or "skewering" from falling on a broken branch sticking up from a fallen tree or something, or getting killed in a bear attack/confrontation, i don't ever count on anyone ever finding me. It just doesn't enter into the equation. If i suddenly disappear... don't feel bad for me, have a beer, or better yet, have a party.

As for vermin, we have a serious problem on Fox Island with coyotes threatening and even attacking or trying to attack people. Pets, they are getting shredded and eaten. I have several options ready to go at a moments notice for those. Everything from the requisite Ruger 10/22 starting with Stingers, etc., up thru long guns with various loads of .223, 12 ga., and 30.06. We "Fox Islanders" (we have no local "government") got together and contracted with the USDA to have their "coyote guys" (my term) to come out and deal with them. Two guys... and i've talked to them... they are "really good". They are using (among other things) suppressed .243's. One of the guys told me that he called in one neighborhood area and a pack leader came directly in and seriously challenged him... silly guy forgot to bring a gun...hahaha... away, he luckily had found in advance and picked up a baseball bat left behind by some kid, and used it to fight off the coyote. He told me that that coyote was the most aggressive coyote he had ever encountered... and he estimates he's killed thousands of them. He knows his coyotes.

My "everyday general purpose carry combo" for "whatever" is my G29 with 20 rounds of Black Talons. Basically, it's what i call a "pocket carbine" with enough ammo in one magazine to deal fairly well with pretty much any situation including a small mob or gang... which, i have had to deal with in the past on more than one occasion. Hey, i used to live in the Los Angeles area...hahaha... gangs EVERYWHERE, along with the occasional dangerous wild animals... cougar, bear, coyotes, total psycho's.

If i am driving home from an elk or bear hunt where we now have packs of freaking 150+lb Gray Wolves, i carry my G20 with max power 180gr or heavier JSP's, while still out in the boonies and could break down, then, when i get into the populated areas i switch to my G29 with the Black Talons as i am much more likely to have to deal with a felon or other psycho than a bear or wolf.

For practice; during the LA Riots i learned to use inexpensive JHP's that are 170-200 grain. That way, when i am done practicing, whatever ammo i have left over goes into the "cheap bullets for cheap people" category. If there is one thing i learned from being in those riots, i don't care how much ammo you think you have, or how powerful it is, you don't have enough. Your thinking will instantly change. You will go for the most "capable" long gun you have. Your long gun will become your handgun. Your handgun will instantly become the equivalent of a pocket knife and you will barely think about it, but you will be glad you have it for backup. Your pocket knife will be almost forgotten. If you don't have one, you will DREAM of having a folding or at least collapsible stock on your long gun. You will take it EVERYWHERE you go. You will LOVE it. It will be your best friend.

You will also want to have at least one great human friend who is WELL trained in combat... and has his own guns with him... and if he doesn't you will provide him with whatever you can... and you will want him to sit "shotgun" with you as you drive around or whatever, and you will want him to know your guns well, and you his guns well.

You will each want, if you don't already have, at least 3 guns each, all the time with you, rifle, shotgun, pistol. All high capacity, all with flashlights... and a crap load (cases) of ammo for each... at least. You will either have these things or you won't. If you don't have them, you will dream about them, because you are not likely to get them any time soon as all the gun shops will quickly sell out and have bare shelves... except maybe for 10mm... and if you are a big 10mm fan you will smile... and clean off that shelf and take it all regardless of brand, load, or price. Others around you in that shop will be sad faced and feel down... because their 9, .40, and .45 and other "common caliber" guns are sadly lacking in having the ammo that they now realize they should have stocked up on long ago. During the LA Riots I was surprised there was still some 12 ga buck and slug ammo, and also some 30.06 ammo left... i bought it all... thinking "too bad" for those that came after me looking for it.

During the LA Riots, the police were the first thing to "go". They were pulled back and sent to staging areas to figure out what to do and gear up. EVERYONE was on their own. EVERYONE divided into one of two groups... "instigators and looters of opportunity" and the other group; "those trying to protect themselves and family and get out of Dodge". Police included. Many got frustrated with waiting around a staging area and left to go home and take care of their wives an kids first and get them away to a safe area. Then those LEO's came back to face the criminals.

Instead of trying to protect a property that you will likely be burnt out of, better to do a tactical retreat to a place you can defend and hold out there. And don't forget to take your photo albums and important papers, etc. as suddenly they will be the only "valuables" you have except your guns and ammo. People will want to buy guns and ammo from you... and you will laugh at them.

Now, what kind of weapon/gun/ammo do you want to carry? 2nd what? Oh yeah, 2nd Amendment.

Tazz10m
11-23-2012, 18:11
Ooo... long post... hahaha... sorry....:whistling:

4949shooter
11-24-2012, 02:05
i'm glad you are doing better, Tazz. What unfortunately happened to you sounds life threatening to say the least.

So you are a two load guy also...one load for the woods and one load for the streets. What I have been doing is carrying a G27 as a backup for the ride home. I am a "three gun" guy when I go hunting for preds.

One day I wouldn't mind hearing more about your shooting, and how those Silvertips performed. I'm sure the 10 ring guys would be interested as well. :wavey:

cowboy1964
11-24-2012, 15:21
I disagree. The FBI as well as their pet research house Firearms Tactical (Fackler, etc.) have an agenda IMO to promote larger diameter heavier bullets as an excuse for their poor performance with their 9mm service guns re. the Miami shootout. I don't know about you but I am not 12" thick,.

Contradicting yourself there. The whole FBI Miami fiasco was about underpenetration.

People don't always get shot from 100% frontally.

Tazz10m
11-24-2012, 19:47
49, the only reason i'm alive is because i fought to live... and i had to fight HARD. If i would have panicked like i ALMOST did, and God knows i "wanted" to... hahaha... i would have been dead for sure. I "looked over the edge" between keeping under control and panic, and it was death... so i backed away quick. And much as i'm not really at all afraid of dying, i realized how much i really wanted to live. Life in this world is actually pretty good... bad as it can be.

Silvertips, i'm not real impressed with. And the old ones had WAY too much flash for night shooting. BEAUTIFUL actually, but very distracting and a bit blinding. Flame was about 3+ feet long and 2+ feet wide... and WHITE... with lots of pretty colors tinged in. Very little "orange" like that from what the gang punk shot at me. He must have been using something like a .25 Raven... and the flame from his gun was really cool looking... it was a round rolling ball of orange fire about 10 inches across... sounded like a firecracker. And although i was literally expecting him to take a shot at me even though i couldn't see a gun, somehow i knew he would. BUT, even though i "knew" he would, i was still clueless when he finally did and i heard it and saw the rolling ball of flame. I silently asked myself; "What the hell was that... a firecracker???" And the "little voice in my head" (which you will learn to listen to if your are smart, hahaha...) said very calmly and matter of factly, and kinda like a woman's voice; "Noo... he just shot at you." And i said silently to myself; "Oh... ok... well, i know what to do..." BAWOOOM!!!! LOUD!!! Lit up the entire neighborhood like lightning. Winchester should have named those "Lightning Rounds"... hahaha...

Anyway, i HIGHLY recommend you practice point shooting over your shoulder backwards out the window of your car... along with every other kind of point shooting you can come up with. Also shooting with a buddy at the same time. Just be sure to only practice with super competent people...hahaha.... it's dangerous as hell.

Tazz10m
11-24-2012, 19:51
Contradicting yourself there. The whole FBI Miami fiasco was about underpenetration.

People don't always get shot from 100% frontally.

Yup, you got it. And the FBI actually settled on the 10mm as the ideal round... and then "whiny little people" got them to water it down to .40 S&W. The bigger slower bullets they like are really for subsonic work with suppressors. If you are shooting and you need quiet, the bigger heavier .45 has the advantage over a subsonic 10mm except in capacity.

4949shooter
11-25-2012, 05:18
Thanks Tazz.

I am curious as to the Silvertip, and the other 10mm loads we talk about, and how they perform on the human target. Evan Marshall lists a few in his last book, but there really isn't a lot of data to go on since the FBI and the other law enforcement agencies dropped the 10mm in favor of the .40 S&W. Now there aren't any LE agencies that carry the ten, and we don't have many shootings from the few of us who are enthusiastic enough to carry this awesome round. We are stuck in a position where we don't really know what these loads are capable of in real world gun fights, and we have some newer loads to choose from like the Hornady, the "downloaded" Silvertip, the boutique ammo, etc. Even the Corbon 150 grain has only logged 10 shootings. And you are correct about the Silvertip, with 64 shootings did not reach into the 90th percentile, nor did the other 180 grain loads. But these were older loads anyway, and we unfortunately don't have any more real world data to go on for 10mm anymore. Just how will these newer loads in 10mm perform?

I think the best we can do now is take what we know from the .40 cal shootings and apply it to our own needs in the 10mm. For example, the 165 grain and 155 grain .40's seem to be doing the best. Also, the Texas DPS troopers really like their .357 Sig 125 grain loads at ~1450. We can easily duplicate and exceed these loads in a 10mm. The problem is finding the "sweet spot." There has to be a point of diminishing returns with the 10mm loads. When do we exit the realm of a good "human stopper" and get into the realm of "large animal stopper," if there is such a thing with a handgun. I think the Silvertip was loaded beyond what is necessary for most human targets. At what weight / velocity does the 10mm stop dumping its energy and start over penetrating? And by "overpenetrating" I don't necessarily mean perforating the target and hitting an innocent bystander (which is still a concern), but I mean not allowing the bullet to expend its energy in a human torso.

These issues have been on my mind, and I would like to get some answers but unfortunately as the situation stands we won't be getting much data on 10mm shootings.

Sorry for the ramble.

Tazz10m
11-27-2012, 19:30
I think we already have plenty of data to know what works and what doesn't. I just think that a lot of the "experts" really aren't thinking like they should.

The bullet that has the most potential to cause the most damage by breaking through bones, cutting soft tissue, and damaging "movement related vitals" stops the attacker the quickest wins. The faster and heavier a bullet can be driven, the more that can be done with the energy driving that bullet, like, for instance, bullet expansion. The faster a bullet can be driven, the more energy there is to do the actual expanding. But, and expanded bullet is like a parachute... the expansion slows it down. But, if the expansion can be "blades" instead of just a ball shaped mushroom, the energy is going to be used to cut with instead of just push "meat and bone" out of the way or otherwise crush or smash it. A very fast heavy bullet can be designed to not penetrate very far at all... if it is designed to open quickly and open large. And a bullet like that is not as likely to have much damaging potential after it exits. Plus, whatever it hits is going to get hit with a large flat area and with the energy expended, not likely to cause much damage afterward. This is why for a 10mm to be a good bear stopper, it needs to not expand so much so whatever velocity one can get it going out of a handgun with needs to go towards penetrating far enough to get to the vitals. Same goes with a dangerous game rifle and taking a rhino. It's the breaking of the bones and the fragments along with the big long hole that get the job done... in other words, again, the damage to the vitals.

And so, since the Silver tips really don't have any cutting edges and really just amount to a big ball shape being pushed through, they need the velocity and long wound channel. And frankly, there are much better bullets out there now that provide cutting, like Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, and of course "Talons" or whatever Winchester wants to call them to be PC. The trick, though, is holding those sharp petals on to do the cutting, and keeping the fragmenting to a minimum to maintain weight.

If a bullet is just designed to go 12 inches and cut the whole way, then what is going to happen if a BIG guy is encountered that is turned sideways and he has BIG bicepts and other muscles flexed tight? At 12 inches one is lucky to even reach the heart. You got clothes, possibly a leather jacket, hide, all that muscle, fat, the heavy bone, then more muscle and fat, then hide, clothes, leather, clothes, hide, fat, muscle, bone, then muscle, lungs, then the heart. That's a lot to get thru, and when the bullet finally gets there, it's big and flat, so it might just push gently against the heart, and the bad guy is still easily able to blow you away or cut you to shreads.

I want a bullet that is going to punch through, expand, cut that crap out of anything along the way, then knock the CRAP out of the spine and stop the ability of the guy to continue functioning and drop him so he can't attack any longer. A heavy 180+ grain talon or saber type bullet that has a jacket (read; talons/sabers) that is not going to separate from the core is going to do the best at that. And if it does exit, it is probably only going to have enough remaining ooomph to get caught in the clothing. Jacketed lead, solid copper, hey, whatever works. A "Silvertip"? Meh. It has limited potential even if it does exit.

This is why a broadhead works, and a target arrow doesn't. I want talons and sabers! And the velocity and weight to push them. And the whole expanded thing works like a parachute to stop it after the job is done. Simple.

4949shooter
11-27-2012, 21:09
I agree with you. We need a combination of energy AND penetration. One or the other generally won't be enough.

I also agree that for large animals (bear) we need a deep penetrating hollowpoint. That is why I carry XTP's in the woods as a backup to my SG or rifle. I really have gotten to like the Black Talons though. The expansion characteristics in the video I posted are superb. Yes, I know it wasn't flesh, but the expansion this bullet gives in water is a good example of what it may be capable of. If I get to the gun show this weekend I will keep my eye out for some. I wish Winchester still produced the 10mm Ranger round. That would be nice. Perhaps a call or email to Winchester is in order. It sure can't hurt, especially if we can convince them the 10mm is back on the rise and there will be a demand for factory ammo.

I will disagree on one point you made. The data for 10mm shootings is lacking. I personally would like to see more data, with the different loadings / bullets / power levels. More data can only benefit the 10mm and shooting community in general.

Thanks for the dialogue. :wavey:

Tazz10m
11-29-2012, 21:33
Bunch of data right here in The 10 Ring.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1373461

Deer are very similar to humans as per bullet/load performance. Although i'd also like to see more data specific to 10mm on humans, but, the data from .40 is virtually exactly the same, but with light loads.

Bongo Boy
10-10-2013, 20:23
This thread is ridiculous.

Ah...thankfully someone finally said it.

I'll stick to worrying about whether I see him first and even get the chance to respond at all, even if with a dinner plate or my car keys. That should cover about 99.99999% of my personal defense issues.

I'm 100% confident that whether I'm packing 230gr FMJs or 185 gr Gold Dots, my chances of survival have little to do with whether I'm even carrying or not. Did I hear the guy with the 2x4 come up behind me in time to get myself out of the way? Nope. But I'm packin' my 10mm loaded for bear, just the same.

Tazz10m
10-10-2013, 20:52
This thread only seems ridiculous if you don't understand it.

Shower us with your wisdom, Bongo Boy.

tyr0981
11-17-2013, 06:55
I'll stick to worrying about whether I see him first and even get the chance to respond at all, even if with a dinner plate or my car keys. That should cover about 99.99999% of my personal defense issues.

I'm 100% confident that whether I'm packing 230gr FMJs or 185 gr Gold Dots, my chances of survival have little to do with whether I'm even carrying or not. Did I hear the guy with the 2x4 come up behind me in time to get myself out of the way? Nope. But I'm packin' my 10mm loaded for bear, just the same.

lots of wisdom in these 2 paragraphs... situational awareness can negate the 'over-penetration' "problem".