View Full Version : Where is your "line in the sand"? (Home Version)
You are asleep and someone breaks in to you home at 3am. Your kids are asleep (as far as you know). To make the discussion simpler let's assume they are too young to be breaking glass and opening doors at 3am. This is a whole new dilema with teenagers, I know.
The question is: When are you gonna draw your gun on someone in your home? If the intruders are stealing your stuff that is enough to make you angry but not enough, legally speaking, to punch their ticket. "Flushing" them out of your home is not recommended since BGs work together sometimes.
This question was posed at a training I recently attended. Several suggestions were given. I am not going to share them all here because I want fresh responses. One example was "the bedroom door". The BGs can try to take my stuff and bang up my house, etc. If they open THAT door they're staying forever. I find that an interesting philosophical question.
In many states you have a burden to flee danger if possible before using deadly force...but not in your home. At home you can apply deadly force even if you CAN get out of the house. If the "BG" turns out to be anyone OTHER than someone trying to affect you serious bodily harm or threaten your life you may now have a serious problem...and a new STEEL home with lots of friends.
Kids, house guests, neighbors change everyone's circumstances. Where is your "line in the sand" at home? The next question, of course, is where is it on the street. If someone wants to fire up that question I promise to reply!
clubsoda22
09-29-2004, 14:25
if you get into my apartment, you're already 20 feet from my bedroom door and that's too close for comfort. The second I identify you as a hostile, you're catching lead unless you first reaction is to surrendur or run away.
At my parents house it's a diferent story, stay away from the stairs and you'll live, try to come up the stairs and you'll die. 911 will be called and a warning will be shouted from the top of the stairs "Leave immediately, attempt to come upstairs and you will be shot"
In our house my little girls room is next to ours, on the second floor. My wife is assigned to fetch the girl and return to the room, dialing 911. While she does this I'll be covering the upstairs hallway including the top off the stairs. If you come upstairs you're hurting bad.
H-D&GLOCK
09-29-2004, 14:54
Guess they are kinda screwed in my house. Once the dogs have you that's it. Hopefully you will consider it merciful as I snuff out your life, thus ending you seeing your limbs tore off by the Great Dane, and the Great Pyrnees too. While my wife's little dogs tear at whatever part they can reach. I will call them off and take you out right there no matter what part of my house you are in. I live in a small town and if I let you go it could be considered a sign of weakness and make me a future target in my area.
Makes no difference where I am. If I fear that I (or the life of an innocent-my family) am in danger of death or great bodily harm, I will immediately and agressively use whatever means necessary to end the threat.
I've "drawn" my gun in my home for several reasons and had it with me, but it turned out there was no threat. One time there was a threat, I answered the door with a 10mm 1911 in my hand to a responding officer after I called 911. He was fine with it. On the street, I only plan to draw to stop a threat. To me that is the only real difference.
A "line in the sand" does not asses the threat and could be construed as a challenge.
As a victim of a home invasion, I must say that when my front door came crashing in, guessing the motivations of the BG was not a consideration. I read alot of posts about someone breaking in your home to rob it and what is the appropiate action. The why of it sure never entered my mine. It was more like, CRASH ! BG ! ID ? Nope, weapon ? Yep, shoot. Now hindsight sure might tell you it was just a burgular who really didnt want to harm anyone, but these things happen pretty fast and not much time for alot of analysis. My line in the sand ? Breach my castle with a weapon, or make me think you have one or act agressively without one.
The way I see it, if a BG is willing to enter my home while I'm there, he must think he can overpower me, otherwise he'd have waited until I was out. He entered my home under the assumption that he could take me. He will soon find out he was wrong. The "line in the sand" is clearly defined by the walls of my house.
I've understood the risks of every job I've ever had. If your "job" is B&E, one of the risks you take when making a "hot entry" (one where the occupants are home) is that you may get shot. If you're not willing to assume that risk, find another line of work.
as far as I know, once in my home, Im legal to use deadly force in my state, therefore thats my line. You enter my home uninvited and intend to steal or cause harm, your as good as dead.
A "line in the sand" does not asses the threat and could be construed as a challenge.
Just to clarify....I didn't mean to suggest a challenge by the "line in the sand" analogy. I certainly don't want to INVITE a problem with a BG. Simply, where is the "final step" before you let one (or 12+) fly? Of course it is situation- dependent. The point is to have that figured out in advance so you DON'T have to think. It's A = B at that point. In my business (Aviation) there is alot of that. If A happens you gotta do B. We practice that. A = B.
Thanks everyone. Great info. Keep 'em coming.
G-Raptor
09-29-2004, 21:14
My "line in the sand" is pretty simple.
First off, I live in a two story house. All the bedrooms are upstairs. Assuming a middle of the night break-in and that everyone who should be upstairs IS upstairs, the line is the stairs.
1. In case of a late break-in, I hit the panic button that turns on the downstairs lights - the upstairs stays dark.
2. I take up a defensive position at the bedroom door where there is good cover and a good view of the staircase.
3. Speed dial 911.
4. I make it known that there is someone upstairs; i.e. me.
5. If he comes up the stairs, he dies on the stairs.
If the BG knows I'm there and has the opportunity to leave, his only reason for coming up the stairs is to cause injury to me or my family. He's had all the warning he's going to get.
Inside my home anything suspicious is met with gun in hand. That includes knocks on the door at odd hours. Although gun and hand may, or may not, be hidden depending on the situation.
The "shoot/don't shoot" decision will still have to be made from there but at least I'm prepared. That last ditch decision has too many variables to come up with a hard and fast "line in the sand" answer.
For me it is simple, if he is in the house that is the end of him, it's only a matter of if i get there first or if my German Shepherd does
Demi @ CSPT
09-30-2004, 07:43
This is an area we covered extensivly in our FIRE POWER DVD. There are times when you cannot shoot an intruder even if he is armed.
If he has a gun in one hand and is going thru a drawer with the other hand and is facing away from you he is not legally shootable, in most states.
If he has an axe over his shoulder and is looking in the refridgerator he is not shootable, in most sates.
I could go on...
The line in the sand analogy for "have you made desicions about how you will respond to intruders before they enter your home?"
There is a whole section of training that covers "Agressive Capture" of an intruder.
When it's time to shoot, you shoot, and you shoot until they do not need to be shot anymore (no longer posing a threat). People who pose a direct lethal threat to you or your family forfeit their humanity.
It is also important to know:
Safety - Handling - Marksmanship - Tactics - Shoot or Capture and how to handle the 911 call and the arrival of the police.
http://www.demibarbito.com/firepower.html
That's just amazing, thank goodness I live in Texas.
Originally posted by Demi @ CSPT
This is an area we covered extensivly in our FIRE POWER DVD. There are times when you cannot shoot an intruder even if he is armed.
If he has a gun in one hand and is going thru a drawer with the other hand and is facing away from you he is not legally shootable, in most states.
If he has an axe over his shoulder and is looking in the refridgerator he is not shootable, in most sates.
I could go on...
The line in the sand analogy for "have you made desicions about how you will respond to intruders before they enter your home?"
There is a whole section of training that covers "Agressive Capture" of an intruder.
When it's time to shoot, you shoot, and you shoot until they do not need to be shot anymore (no longer posing a threat). People who pose a direct lethal threat to you or your family forfeit their humanity.
It is also important to know:
Safety - Handling - Marksmanship - Tactics - Shoot or Capture and how to handle the 911 call and the arrival of the police.
http://www.demibarbito.com/firepower.html
H-D&GLOCK
09-30-2004, 08:21
yes, same here being in Florida. I just love castle doctrine.
Any felon breaking into my house is tempting the gods of divine retribution. He can surrender IMMEDIATELY, or start ducking bullets. His choice.
And if he has a gun, knife, axe, etc., in his hand, but is momentarily looking away, I'm not going to wait until he turns around and shoots, stabs, or chops me or mine before taking him out. Regardless of what some teach in their classes.
WAR STORY: A cop buddy of mine was the second officer to arrive at the scene of an armed robbery in progress. He found the first officer being held at gunpoint by the robber.
My buddy pulled his gun and ordered the robber to drop his.
The result? The armed robber immediately spun towards my buddy and shot him in the stomach, before my buddy could pull the trigger. It was the old "action is faster than reaction" story.
Luckily the other officer was then able to draw and shoot the robber.
The point? An armed felon in your home should be shown no mercy. It's not a "game". It is his life or yours, and by breaking into your home, and being armed, he is threatening your life regardless of which way he happens to be looking when you first see him.
Glenn E. Meyer
09-30-2004, 10:12
As much as it pains me to agree with V. Creed - I have lived in two states most of my life that allow you to deal effectively with an intruder in your house.
I think a state that forbids you to shoot an armed intruder based on the vagaries of his posture is a moral abomination.
My decision to shoot or not is based soley on pragmatic tactics that lead to best result for me and my own. I would prefer not to shoot because of the pragmatics but I have no moral problem with it.
Someone in your house to do things that are illegal has no rights, nor do you need to retreat unless you decide that's a good way to go.
SabreWolf
09-30-2004, 10:14
If they enter my home they will die and the meat wagon can come and pick them up.
If I'm reading this thread correctly most people are assuming just because someone uninvited is in your home that individual is automaticly a criminal and forfeits all rights to keep on living.
It really is necessary to investigate first.... then identify the intruder as either a criminal or not... then take the actions this particular situation require. Those actions could range from many shots to center of mass to having to talk to a stranger or a drunk until the police arrive.
A scenario... although I don't like doing this because scenarios can be played with entirely too much.....
Middle of the night... no kids in house, SO is still in bed.... sound of breaking glass wakes you... you get up gun in hand and see an indistinct but human shape in the hall or stairway or next room. What to do?
Say you shoot... then discover it is a confused escapee from a mental hospital. Or it is your uncle Joe drunk as a skunk. Or it really is an armed criminal... but how would you know who it is if shots are fired at a dark figure?
Yes, taking the time to identify a would be assailant does stack the odds in favor of the assailant... if it IS an assailant. A super bright flashlight would help.. but then that also makes you a target. Drat... I'm playing with my own scenario's variables....
The point is... just because someone is inside the home uninvited... or even if they broke in... that doesn't mean they are someone who needs to be shot. Identification of a real threat is essential. And I don't mean that in a legal sense either (although the legal consequences of a mistaken identity shooting are immense)... legalities be damned... you have to live with having shot someone by mistake for the rest of your life.
The best "safety" on any gun is the one between our ears. The brain says shoot or don't shoot and to make that decision we desperately need to know what it is we are shooting at and why..... breaking and entering, theft, simple trespass, or having the crap scared out of you, are not reasons to take a human life.
If anyone is breaking into my home at 3:00 AM they are on the bad end of bad things. First, I have an alarm set on instant at night, so I should have a heads up. Second, I have a 191 lb Mastiff that should provide enough of a delay to let me get some wits about me and pick up the G21 on my nightstand with a X200 (target ID is crucial) on it. Third, I have a G21 with an X200 on it and in my humble opinion, and my state agrees with me -
Anyone breaking in at 3:00 am may be there to kill me, rape & kidnap my wife then use my dog in a Satanic ritual. Therefore -
A) If they aren't wearing a uniform there are no questions. I don't care if they have a weapon visible. I really and truly fear for my life in this situation in that I don't know what they do or don't have, BUT I KNOW THEY DON'T FEAR A CONFRONTATION. Therefore, they are dangerous.
B) If they ARE wearing a uniform, that means there is a chance for them to explain WTF is going on (house on fire, little things like that).
ANYONE WITH A GUN IN THEIR HAND IS A GONER.
CarlosDJackal
09-30-2004, 13:11
If I am home by myself (no guests), it's my bedroom door.
If I do have guests staying with me, it's anywhere inside the top level of my house.
If I happen to have guests sleeping in the basement (like I did during the family reunion two years ago), it's anywhere inside my house.
If you threaten to shoot into my home, it's anywhere within bullet distance from my house (which can also mean the closest cross street about 250 yards away).
Great Post !
Originally posted by Glenn E. Meyer
As much as it pains me to agree with V. Creed - I have lived in two states most of my life that allow you to deal effectively with an intruder in your house.
I think a state that forbids you to shoot an armed intruder based on the vagaries of his posture is a moral abomination.
My decision to shoot or not is based soley on pragmatic tactics that lead to best result for me and my own. I would prefer not to shoot because of the pragmatics but I have no moral problem with it.
Someone in your house to do things that are illegal has no rights, nor do you need to retreat unless you decide that's a good way to go.
I feel exactly the same way. I will make the ID and if it costs my life so be it. I would sure rather be dead than shoot my kid because he lost his key and broke a window to get in.
Originally posted by Bikenut
If I'm reading this thread correctly most people are assuming just because someone uninvited is in your home that individual is automaticly a criminal and forfeits all rights to keep on living.
It really is necessary to investigate first.... then identify the intruder as either a criminal or not... then take the actions this particular situation require. Those actions could range from many shots to center of mass to having to talk to a stranger or a drunk until the police arrive.
A scenario... although I don't like doing this because scenarios can be played with entirely too much.....
Middle of the night... no kids in house, SO is still in bed.... sound of breaking glass wakes you... you get up gun in hand and see an indistinct but human shape in the hall or stairway or next room. What to do?
Say you shoot... then discover it is a confused escapee from a mental hospital. Or it is your uncle Joe drunk as a skunk. Or it really is an armed criminal... but how would you know who it is if shots are fired at a dark figure?
Yes, taking the time to identify a would be assailant does stack the odds in favor of the assailant... if it IS an assailant. A super bright flashlight would help.. but then that also makes you a target. Drat... I'm playing with my own scenario's variables....
The point is... just because someone is inside the home uninvited... or even if they broke in... that doesn't mean they are someone who needs to be shot. Identification of a real threat is essential. And I don't mean that in a legal sense either (although the legal consequences of a mistaken identity shooting are immense)... legalities be damned... you have to live with having shot someone by mistake for the rest of your life.
The best "safety" on any gun is the one between our ears. The brain says shoot or don't shoot and to make that decision we desperately need to know what it is we are shooting at and why..... breaking and entering, theft, simple trespass, or having the crap scared out of you, are not reasons to take a human life.
Shawn Dodson
09-30-2004, 19:54
Given the scenario, breaking glass at 3 AM, I will issue a verbal challenge from a position of advantage. This is where I'll determine the intent of the intruder, whether or not he/she broke into my home to commit a property crime or crime of violence.
If, after I've given verbal warning (provided the situation allows), the intruder fails to flee and instead chooses to approach my position I have to assume he/she intends to do me and my family harm. At this point I have to assume the person isn't in his/her right mind to seek the opportunity to confront an armed homeowner. At this point the threat becomes a target, and as soon as the target provides me the opportunity I will ID it as it approaches and engage it with gunfire.
This is my plan. However I expect my plan to go out the window at first contact.
Hostile in house catches lead (unless he's really apologetic-i.e. surrenders).
G-Raptor
09-30-2004, 21:42
Originally posted by CarlosDJackal
If I am home by myself (no guests), it's my bedroom door.
If I do have guests staying with me, it's anywhere inside the top level of my house.
If I happen to have guests sleeping in the basement (like I did during the family reunion two years ago), it's anywhere inside my house.
If you threaten to shoot into my home, it's anywhere within bullet distance from my house (which can also mean the closest cross street about 250 yards away).
Hmmm.
Wish I'd have said that. ;f
P.S. I assume ANY intruder in my house is armed. If you want to know why, take a ten second walk through your kitchen or spend a minute in your garage - lots of handy weapons in either place.
Lobezno001
09-30-2004, 21:46
If I was living single, then I might pause a moment or two to let the angry dog at my feet bring a BG some retribution for waking her up. But since I have my wife and a beautiful one year old daughter, if a BG were to B&E my home, I'd be spending time making a hole in that sand to stuff his sorry butt in after he got swiss-cheesed with lead.
Hi all,
Good posts, interesting subject...plays on all the fears: danger to baby, loss of life/property, embarrassment in community, legal repercussions, etc.
I lived in NYC (Brooklyn and Manhattan) for eight years while a law enforcement officer there. During that time I was personally the victim of burglaries in my houses (apartments in Manhattan) a total of eleven times! In my apartment in Manhattan my wife actually saw the burglar walk out of our apartment building carrying his booty in our suitcase. Another time I came home from a four to twelve tour and found a guy sitting on the sofa in my third floor loft sniffing glue from a brown paper bag; this was in January, and was the third time that month I had my loft broken into! I had the security locks, I had the walls taped for alarms (they had broken through the cheap plaster board wall of one apartment) and had placed alarms on both interior and exterior walls. I came home once and found the alarm had been knocked off the wall, and kicked until it stopped ringing. When I asked my neighbor in the next apartment why they hadn't called the police immediately they said they thought my wife and I were just having a family disagreement!
I literally had nothing left to steal! It looked like the Seven Santini Brothers Moving Company had dropped by and repossessed my belongings!
FINALLY: I move to Florida. Nice house, great neighborhood, gated community. My wife is out west (USA) and my teenage kids are sleeping away at local friends homes. I'm in bed (alone). I don't have dogs or other "pets", I can't stand the smell or the bother. I am a VERY light sleeper (yeah, the "jitters" from being the victim of eleven breakins), I hear a noise at my front door, it wakes me and as I lay there I hear the knob being tried. I get out of bed and get my Glock 19 and a flashlight from my bedside table and approach the front door (no exterior light on). There is enough light from the street to silhouette a human shape through the glass center of the door. As I draw near the person leaves, and a moment later I hear the noise of the French doors on the side of the house being checked. I am wide awake, armed and a VERY well trained leo. I am not afraid of numbers of potential bad guys or what they may be armed with or what their intentions are. What I am is patient and quiet. I hit the silent alarm that activates the Brinks service, which in turn dispatches the police if I don't call in with a password. Then I wait. I wait for either: The person(s) to accomplish their entrance, then face whatever comes through my door and deal with it; or I wait for the police to arrive shortly and either the guy runs away or gets nailed by the police. I do not go outside and try and collar him; that would be stupid and "tombstone courage."
Again, I have been the victim of many crimes. Along with the burglaries, I have had knives pulled on me when I was off duty and walking to the subway. When in plainclothes I have had bad guys sell me dope, then pull weapons and try and rip me off. I am a crime MAGNET. BUT, I am not pre-disposed to use deadly force. Some may say it was a weakness, or cowardly, not to have raced out into the street in front of my house and face my intruder: "The code of the West, the "Duel in the dust."
What I did was just wait. Finally, I heard the door bell ring once, and a quiet knock. I concealed the Glock along my leg, switched on the outside light and opened the front door. It was my daughter returning home from her friend's house. She had decided not to sleep over after all. The point is, as has been mentioned, not everything that goes "bump" in the night is an enemy. Even with all my bad experiences I took the time to access the scene, please do the same. The life you save may be as precious to you as my children's is to me. Regards to all, sorry for the long windedness, Pako.
hispeedlodrag
10-01-2004, 00:03
All uninvited entries in my home will be greeted by a gnashing of teeth. Survivors of said teeth will be ventilated. That is, if the several hundred pound pigs don't get to 'em first. :)
Halfcocked
10-01-2004, 01:47
I agree with Glenn. This is Texas. In other words, "If I can see'em, I can shoot'em."
Evil Earl
10-03-2004, 14:00
in my House uninvited bad news for them armed or not. self defence if you are fear of boudely injury. you have the right to defend yourself. in other words if somebody P-O at you when they say they are going to kick your butt and you are honesly afraid of grave injury you have the right of any means nessary to defend yourself till the threat is over armed or not.
reagansquad2
10-03-2004, 18:09
There is only one viable HD situation in my current place. BG starts walking up the creaky stairs outside, wakes the dogs. Gets outside the front door, decides to kick it down. Dogs go BAT***** and wake me up. A) He's already gone and I have to chase down the dogs because they took off out the front door. B) He ignores the dogs and comes in. C) He attacks the dogs.
a) Call cops, collect dogs.
b) Evaluate further, if he advances or is in posession of a weapon and is within 21 feet; *bang*
c) He's already proven to me that he is willing to take life... even if it's dog life. Especially since my dogs would be more likely to bark, but then realize he was a human and lick him than they would be to attack him. That means he just wants to silence them so he can attack me without risking someone hearing the dog-alarm.*bang*
If you are dumb enough to still come upstairs and kick in my locked bedroom door while my wife or myself is screaming that we have called the police and we are armed, well, you are definately not anyone wishing me well, you are definately not family or friend, and you have definately crossed that "line."
If anyone can give me any good reason not to shoot the second someone ignores the shouting and kicks down my bedroom door, I sure would love to hear it.
RiverVan
10-03-2004, 20:16
Violate my castle and you have crossed the line. Any threat, even if it’s only my perception, and I fling lead. On the street I would retreat and eat humble pie at almost all cost to avoid needing to shoot someone.
Originally posted by goalie
If you are dumb enough to still come upstairs and kick in my locked bedroom door while my wife or myself is screaming that we have called the police and we are armed, well, you are definately not anyone wishing me well, you are definately not family or friend, and you have definately crossed that "line."
If anyone can give me any good reason not to shoot the second someone ignores the shouting and kicks down my bedroom door, I sure would love to hear it.
It is the fire dept. in full gas mask wanting to evacuate the home due to truck/train wreck involving chemical spill. Until identification has been made there is no way of knowing why your door is being kicked in.
Friend of mine lived in an apartment building. Fire Dept. was hammering very forcefully on his door and woke him up because the apartment above him was on fire. He didn't smell any smoke or even have a clue what was going on.
Being scared because someone is kicking down your door still isn't a reason to take a life. I'm not talking about legalities right now, although that is a consideration, but am referring to the fact that if the wrong person is shot because they scared you... you have to live with that the rest of your life. Investigate if possible, Identify threat/no threat required!, deal with situation. No threat = no reason to shoot regardless of how much ruckus is going on.
Real life bad situations just don't have any hard and fast solutions and "lines in the sand" simply won't work for everything.
Originally posted by Bikenut
Real life bad situations just don't have any hard and fast solutions and "lines in the sand" simply won't work for everything.
Anyone who can't tell the difference between firemen and robbers/rapists shouldn't have a gun. ;Q
The plain truth is that almost never is there going to be any question about who the bad guys are. You can make up all kinds of nonsensical scenarios, but in most real life and death situations, you are going to know.
However, if ever in doubt, don't shoot. It's really pretty simple.
Originally posted by V Creed
Anyone who can't tell the difference between firemen and robbers/rapists shouldn't have a gun. ;Q
The plain truth is that almost never is there going to be any question about who the bad guys are. You can make up all kinds of nonsensical scenarios, but in most real life and death situations, you are going to know.
However, if ever in doubt, don't shoot. It's really pretty simple.
You didn't say that in your previous post. You wanted to know if there was any reason you should not shoot someone kicking down your door. I gave you one. I stressed that identifying a threat is essential before shooting. The act of kicking down a door in and of itself does not indicate a threat requiring a response with deadly force. It doesn't even reliably indicate that there is a threat.
Bad situations are never simple. There is no guarantee there will be enough lighting to tell the differnce between a fire fighter and a criminal... or a pissed off but not homicidal family member. What I was trying to say is that bad situations are so fluid and so varied in nature that there simply is no hard and fast "line in the sand". Having made the decision beforehand that anyone who... is in the house uninvited/at odd house/shouldn't be there or is kicking down a door is to be immediately shot... leaves out a critical phase of self defense. That being identifying there actually IS a life/limb threatening situation. And a door being kicked down, a shadowy figure in the dark, a home invader, some jerkwad shouting obscenities right in your face, and a host of other scenarios just do not qualify as situations that require responding with deadly force. Force might be required but the old "shoot first and ask questions later" attitude is a prelude to a very tragic event just waiting to happen.
I'm not taking issue with you personally. I do have a problem with the thinking shown by some posters so far that responding with deadly force is ok just because someone is in the house or is acting violently but not in a manner that threatens another human. We, as people who carry guns, have at our disposal the means to save lives. That is a huge responsibility. But the even bigger responsibility is to not take a life when it isn't absolutely necessary.
The "line in the sand" isn't a physical border like a door or property line... it is when an event occurs that leaves no doubt your, or another innocent's, life is in danger of being immediately ended or grave bodily harm is immenent.
Anyone who is so trigger happy they are willing to shoot first and ask questions later needs some educating and a change of attitude. Note that I didn't take the easy way out and say they shouldn't own a gun... that is anti-gun rhetoric. It isn't the gun's fault the shooter didn't take the time to identify ..............
Evil Earl
10-04-2004, 16:49
I would like to believe if any situation were to happen at home or out or where ever you maybe. that common sense will prevail and no matter what happens your safety and the safety of others is the utmost importance. stay armed and stay ready but most of all stay safe. because of these people that want to take our freedom away will find any situation no matter how just it maybe. to remove fire arms from any person that is not military or law. cause they think that every body else is a bunch of gun toting hillbilly fanatics that has a gun in one hand and a six pack in the other and there heads up there ass.
Glenn E. Meyer
10-04-2004, 19:14
And a door being kicked down, a shadowy figure in the dark, a home invader, some jerkwad shouting obscenities right in your face, and a host of other scenarios just do not qualify as situations that require responding with deadly force.
I do have a problem with the thinking shown by some posters so far that responding with deadly force is ok just because someone is in the house or is acting violently but not in a manner that threatens another human.
------------
Bikenut - I'm having trouble conceptualizing these two snips. In the first, you have someone in your house seemingly at contact distance -I don't see why that is not a deadly force situation. You don't have the option to flee in your bedroom or even your living room. That violation of space is enough to be a real risk. Hand to hand as a moderate use of force is not realistic.
Nor do I understand what acting violently but not in a manner that threatens another human means in the context of my home. A madman chopping up the place with an ax?
There is a small probability that it is a team of scientists looking for the Lost Ark of the Covenant and they forgot to knock or the firemen. I don't recall ever hearing of a law abiding citizen firing on the firemen though.
With some reasonable attempt at target identification, challenging, etc. - after that - you need to act in a fast moving situation.
Glen...
A shadowy figure is exactly that... it could mean that the shadow is a sociopathic murderer/rapist, or it could mean it is drunken Uncle Joe, or... well anyone. A shadowy figure does not in and of itself constitute a threat that requires lethal response. Until actual identification is made there is doubt if even an actual threat that requires lethal response is there. Shouting out a challenge to identify themselves can not be responded to for a number of reasons... deafness is the obvious one.
People can go on a rampage of tossing dishes, overturning furniture, and cussing up a storm without ever posing a threat of violence to a human being. Yes, this kind of thing is scary to watch but just being scared is not a reason to shoot. Nor is shooting someone OK just in case they might do something or because you (or I) in our scared state think they might do something.
Actually we are on the same page Glen... for you also said that identification is necessary. I'm taking issue with the attitude that many have posted in this thread that just because someone is in the house it is open season. Of course an uninvited guest? or an intruder is something that needs to be dealt with.... but until it is identified as a clear and immediate threat of grave bodily injury or death shooting is not an option. Not even if they are kicking down the door because kicking down the door is grave bodily injury to the door... not to any humans. It may escalate to that... the dude might be kicking down the door with the intent to do exactly that... but until that intent is evident and clearly identified shooting is not warranted.
I'm not advocating standing around waiting until some perp actually sticks a knife in... or introduces the fat end of a bat to body parts... before taking action. I am saying that clear and immediate actions, not location! on the part of the perp that immediately put humans in harm's way are what show that intent. Yes, that momentary hesitation waiting for that indefinable instant in time when the threat becomes one needing drastic action gives the perp (if it is a perp) an advantage... but that hesitation could also keep someone from shooting their own kids/an escaped lunatic/an elderly person with Alzheimers/any number of far out possibilities have happened.
And please don't misunderstand where I'm coming from on this... it isn't from fear of lawsuits or prison sentences. It is from the perspective that carrying around the guilt of having killed an innocent person for the rest of a lifetime is much worse than any lawsuit or prison term. I am extremely well aware that defending one's self or others from a perp requires immediate and decisive action and if a gun is handy that would be the best thing to use for defense. And if the perp dies as a result of injurys sustained from the victim's self defense efforts... geee... too bad.
And thanks for keeping our discussion a discussion only. I sincerely appreciate that.
Originally posted by Bikenut
It is the fire dept. in full gas mask wanting to evacuate the home due to truck/train wreck involving chemical spill. Until identification has been made there is no way of knowing why your door is being kicked in.
Friend of mine lived in an apartment building. Fire Dept. was hammering very forcefully on his door and woke him up because the apartment above him was on fire. He didn't smell any smoke or even have a clue what was going on.
Being scared because someone is kicking down your door still isn't a reason to take a life. I'm not talking about legalities right now, although that is a consideration, but am referring to the fact that if the wrong person is shot because they scared you... you have to live with that the rest of your life. Investigate if possible, Identify threat/no threat required!, deal with situation. No threat = no reason to shoot regardless of how much ruckus is going on.
Real life bad situations just don't have any hard and fast solutions and "lines in the sand" simply won't work for everything.
Nope. If there is a fire or spill or anything big enough to break into my home, you had better show up with your siren wailing away if you don't want to get shot. You also will be driving up right in front of my home, as there is no physical way to get behind it. That means I will be able to see the lights outside my 2nd floor bedroom window.
Feel free to try again though.
Originally posted by goalie
Nope. If there is a fire or spill or anything big enough to break into my home, you had better show up with your siren wailing away if you don't want to get shot. You also will be driving up right in front of my home, as there is no physical way to get behind it. That means I will be able to see the lights outside my 2nd floor bedroom window.
Feel free to try again though.
Am I understanding this correctly? That you would shoot someone for the simple act of breaking into your home? Where is the threat of bodily harm or death there? Breaking into a home is a property damage issue and property damage does not legally or morally warrant a lethal response.
Is it the fear that the intruder might do bodily harm or might cause death that concerns you? Even then, a lethal response is not justified legally or morally for what you are afraid someone might do.
Or is it wounded pride that someone would DARE to break into your home that justifies a lethal respone? I certainly hope not!
By the way.... fire fighters don't always arrive in vehicles, they have been known to go door to door in emergencies. Escaped loonys break in homes but aren't always dangerous to the people inside. An old fart with Alzheimers might think he is breaking into his own home and wondering why the door is locked. And one odd one... were I beginning to lose fingers and toes from freezing and no one answered my knock I just might break in to get warm! Sure, these possibilities are statisticly highly unlikely yet they do occur. The key is that they do occur. And once the trigger is pulled there is no way of calling that bullet back. That inability to bring the bullet back is why it is essential to identify whether or not a for real threat requiring lethal response actually exists before shooting.
It is legally and morally required that a person be responding to an immediate and direct threat of grave bodily harm and/or death. That response must be preceeded by identifying if there is a threat. Breaking in doesn't represent that threat. It does represent the possible threat of theft and the reality of property damage but until the dude does something else that puts someone in danger there is no justification for a lethal response. I didn't say a response wasn't called for... just not a lethal one.
How would it play if police were to suddenly start shooting drunks because, since they are drunk and drunks oftentimes get violent, they might attack the cops? Police can't shoot until that attack actually happens... and neither can we. And breaking in represents an attack on your house, not an attack on your person. Even kicking in the bedroom door isn't quite yet an attack on your person... identifying who it is and what their intentions are is necessary. Although that one is very close to, but not quite yet, an attack on your person. It still could be that old fart with Alzheimers half deaf and wondering why the door to what he thinks is his own bedroom is locked.
But all the scenarios in the world aren't going to help either of us simply because scenarios can be played with to present arguments that either support or diminish any position or opinion. Plain fact is though... if the perp isn't threatening lethal or grave force you cannot legally or morally respond with lethal or grave force no matter what else they may be doing.
Sorry I rambled all over the back 40 while answering...........
Evil Earl
10-05-2004, 20:24
The old fart with Alzheimers would of had a bad day kicking in any of my doors. even if a cop gets a report of a person might be armed and they run into a person fitting that disription and the cop is in a charge state and the person turns around quickly . and all of sudden he sees something in his hand its a dark object and the cop fires it has happened numerous times and it was still called a justified shooting look it up .
as for the fireman breaking down your door? I would hope they would be yelling fire dept and knocking loudly before breaking in a door and in most situations you would hear a fire truck approach and possibly see the lights through your windows. Anyone police,ems,fire dept better be yelling who they are if they are coming into a house by force or even if they just walk in. That is common sense
Originally posted by Bikenut
Am I understanding this correctly? That you would shoot someone for the simple act of breaking into your home?
Well, this is as far as I read, because no, you do not understand correctly. I would shoot someone for breaking into my home and then ignoring my yelling/warning and still kicking down my bedroom door without once identifying himself as someone who has any buisness at all to be in my house, let alone kicking down my bedroom door.
I'll say it again so that maybe you can comprehend: there is nobody that knows me who would ever, in a million years, kick in my bedroom door while I am behind it yelling that I am armed and have called the police. Anyone who does such a stupid thing without taking any measures to identify themselves before acting in an aggressive and violent way deserves exactly what they get.
Police and firemen trying to rescue you will arrive in vehicles with flashing lights and sirens. Escaped alzheimers patients will not bash in your bedroom door (unless they truely are a danger to you, in which case you would shoot them regardless of the alzheimers dx). Some lost drunk is not going to kick in your bedroom door (again,unless they truely are a danger to you, in which case you would shoot them in self-defense regardless of their drunken state).
To sum it up, I will not shoot you for breaking into my house. I will shoot you for kicking down my bedroom door despite being warned not to.
Evil Earl
10-06-2004, 16:02
you(R)100# Correct.^c
Originally posted by goalie
I'll say it again so that maybe you can comprehend:
I comprehend quite well... you think that the simple act of kicking in a door equals immenent grave bodily harm or death regardless of the reason the door is being kicked in or whether there is an actual threat... just kicking in the door is threat enough. I understand that you have drawn a "line in the sand" before it is certain there is a threat requiring a lethal response. I also understand you are entitled to your beliefs.
I quit trying to explain what the difference is between kicking in a door and an actual threat of harm or death. I'll not bore you with further explanations about how kicking in a door requires a response but not necessarily a lethal one... or that identifying who is doing the kicking and why is necessary before shooting. Rest assured I comprehend quite well.
We don't have to agree. Life would be entirely too dull if we all agreed on everything.
geminicricket
10-06-2004, 22:17
Well, I don't practice the "shoot anything that moves or makes noise in the dark" mindset, or else I'd shoot my wife for talking in her sleep, shoot my baby for having bad dreams at 4:00 am, and shoot my big girl for coming home from work after midnight.
If I get my gun in the night, after disarming, it's going to be something I've had enough time to decide I needed to do, and that means that somebody will get a ticket punched, or punched at.
Possible, and realistic events include but are not limited to: Burglary of an automobile, burglary of a habitation, vandalism.
Originally posted by Bikenut
I comprehend quite well... you think that the simple act of kicking in a door equals immenent grave bodily harm or death regardless of the reason the door is being kicked in or whether there is an actual threat... just kicking in the door is threat enough.
You must be pretty "simple" yourself if you read my posts and thought that I said the "simple act of kicking in a door equals immenent grave bodily harm or death regardless of the reason the door is being kicked in." There is nothing simple about the chain of events I described, unless you think breaking into a home, ignoring the homeowner's yelling and warnings, then violently kicking down the locked bedroom door that is between yourself and the homeowners is one "simple" act. ;Q
Originally posted by Bikenut
Am I understanding this correctly? That you would shoot someone for the simple act of breaking into your home?
Where do you live Bikenut, that people breaking into your home is no big deal? ;Q
Actually, I don't think anyone cares much what you do, or don't do, in YOUR home. If you want to welcome home-invaders with open arms, or meekly offer up your daughter or wife to burglar-rapists it's fine with me.
What I personally resent is YOU trying to tell the rest of US what to do. My home really is my castle, and anyone breaking in is committing a serious felony, and will be dealt with accordingly.
You can make up all kinds of nonsensical "what-ifs" to try and confuse the issue, but the truth is most of us can easily distinguish the difference between the fire department, friends, relatives, and dangerous felons.
Originally posted by V Creed
Where do you live Bikenut, that people breaking into your home is no big deal? ;Q
I never said breaking in wasn't a big deal. Of course it is. I've only said that breaking in doesn't necessarily need to be met with gunfire.
Originally posted by V Creed
Actually, I don't think anyone cares much what you do, or don't do, in YOUR home. If you want to welcome home-invaders with open arms, or meekly offer up your daughter or wife to burglar-rapists it's fine with me.
Again, I never said anything like that. I have said that home invaders are something that need to be dealt with with the level of force the situation requires.
Originally posted by V Creed
What I personally resent is YOU trying to tell the rest of US what to do. My home really is my castle, and anyone breaking in is committing a serious felony, and will be dealt with accordingly.
Read your state's laws. If those laws say that you can kill someone just because they are in your home or just because they forced their way into your home then legally you are home free. If your conscience can handle shooting someone who is in your home but not a threat to life and limb... then you are again, home free.
Originally posted by V Creed
You can make up all kinds of nonsensical "what-ifs" to try and confuse the issue, but the truth is most of us can easily distinguish the difference between the fire department, friends, relatives, and dangerous felons.
Now this really confuses me... here you are jumping all over what I've been saying and then you agree with me? I've been saying that IDENTIFICATION of a threat is essential before shooting and your last sentence contains wording that also says IDENTIFICATION is a part of what you would do. So why are you taking exception to what I've been saying?
Perhaps it is that part about "dangerous felons" you mentioned. How dangerous of a felon does it take to require a lethal response? A lethal felon requires a lethal respons while a non lethal felon requires a non lethal response. I don't know how you define that one but the general legal and moral definition is the old "force on force" idea. That being a person can respond with enough force to end the confrontation but not too much. Kinda like using a gun in a fist fight would be considered "excessive force". Or if someone is breaking in and is met with 12ga. buck shot before finding out who they are would be considered an excessive response.
Perhaps I have not explained myself well enough in this thread. The only thing I've been saying is that it is necessary to IDENTIFY who is doing what and why before opening fire. The scenarios I offered were not meant to confuse the issue but to demonstrate that responding with gunfire as a general rule isn't always going to be the proper response. I've been trying to point out that there just isn't a hard and fast "line in the sand" except the very thin and hard to define line where the would be victim is for sure in danger of losing life or limb.
From experience.. during a violent situation deciding when there is, and how much there is, danger to life and limb varies all over the map. One instant you can be absolutely certain and before hand meets gun become not so certain because events changed. And then events change again, and again. There just isn't a hard and fast "line in the sand" that can be relied on to fit any and all situations. And that is what I've been trying to say all along.
Investigate, Identify, Deal with appropriately.
Glenn E. Meyer
10-08-2004, 09:09
Originally posted by V Creed
You can make up all kinds of nonsensical "what-ifs" to try and confuse the issue, but the truth is most of us can easily distinguish the difference between the fire department, friends, relatives, and dangerous felons.
While I'm not sympathetic to the person breaking into my home, I think Bikenut's point that some attempt at challenging or identification is well taken.
As far as identification, the SWAT teams have charged into the wrong homes quite a few times and shot some poor schmuck. I guess they couldn't tell the difference between incidents or felons.
My identification is that nobody, not one soul, who knows me would ever, in a million, zillion, or kajillion years break into my home, then, while ignoring me yelling at them to leave, not only remain in my home without identifying themselves in some way, but continue on to violently kick in my locked bedroom door.
;T
You can break in, you can even run off with my TV and stereo, but you had better stay the hell out of my bedroom.
The only line that would be crossed is the the CHALK LINE that is drawn around the b/g that marks the spot where he/she hit the floor..
Why does everyone reach for a pistol? The Ar15 .223 round is SOOO much better as a stopping round... I'll have to find the article so hold the chatter.
Colt shorty w/high power flashlight and laser has scared many a folk who decided to accidently to take a walk in my backyard. Motion sensors, fences and trees make it very difficult to cut thru. Why would they take the hard way in? Lights make a great deterrent..
I would never expire anyone in my yard, just didn't want them there. What are they gonna do, call the police on me???
As for the home invasion break in, they don't stand a chance.....
fabricator
10-09-2004, 17:46
Originally posted by Demi @ CSPT
This is an area we covered extensivly in our FIRE POWER DVD. There are times when you cannot shoot an intruder even if he is armed.
If he has a gun in one hand and is going thru a drawer with the other hand and is facing away from you he is not legally shootable, in most states.
If he has an axe over his shoulder and is looking in the refridgerator he is not shootable, in most sates.
I could go on...
The line in the sand analogy for "have you made desicions about how you will respond to intruders before they enter your home?"
There is a whole section of training that covers "Agressive Capture" of an intruder.
When it's time to shoot, you shoot, and you shoot until they do not need to be shot anymore (no longer posing a threat). People who pose a direct lethal threat to you or your family forfeit their humanity.
It is also important to know:
Safety - Handling - Marksmanship - Tactics - Shoot or Capture and how to handle the 911 call and the arrival of the police.
http://www.demibarbito.com/firepower.html
This is a joke post right? Agressive capture? You have got to be freaking kidding! a guy in your house with an ax over his shoulder and you are going to capture him? Would you like the standard body bag or the fetching floral pattern?
A guy with a gun in one hand going thru a drawer with the other in my house is going to have a serious lead toxicity problem.
Agressive capture;z ;z ;z Just when you think youve heard it all.;z ;z
hogrider
10-09-2004, 18:49
Simply put, If you're breaking into my home in the middle of the night, my wife & children's lives are more valuable than yours. I have no moral qualms about it. If I feel our lives are in danger, I'd rather deal with the ramifications later, than risk them now.
You will be instructed to identify yourself and leave.
Failure to comply will result in gunfire.
My state recognizes my right to defend myself, my family, and my property, upto the property line. Additionally, if I read the statute correctly, I have the right to immediate pursuit and use force to reclaim private property. I guess that covers the legal ramifications. (Relevant statutes (http://members.aol.com/StatutesP8/18PA507.html))
You'll find many of our statutes hinge upon what you believe the circumstances to be at the time, regardless of the actual circumstances.
BTW, did you notice § 510 provides a defense against civil action?
Isn't it great to live in an enlightened state?
Originally posted by Bikenut
Investigate, Identify, Deal with appropriately.
I'll drink to that! ;Y As long as "deal with appropriately" includes immediately taking out any and all armed felons who have broken into my home. ;f
I didn't bother explaining that first identifying the threat is necessary, because it is so obviously necessary that I considered it to be a given. Even kids know that.
You can review all the posts I've ever written and none advocte shooting blindly. In fact, there are several where I point out that it is essential for a night-time home defense firearm to have an attached white light......to enable rapid and certain target identification in the dark. ^c
What I objected to was your insinuation that lethal force wasn't appropriate when dealing with felonious home invasions.
Okay,
I know that this will get me "toasted" by the shoot to kill, my house is my castle crowd, but I agree with BIKENUT. He is NOT saying (as I understand him) that he does not value the lives of his loved ones, and would not protect them, he is simply saying that there are no hard and fast "rules" in the scenario presented at the start of this thread. This position was PERSONALLY attacked (or so it seemed to me) by GOALIE and V CREED.
I may, or may not, employ deadly force in this situation. From my earlier post you can read that I am no stranger to crime (having been a victim). There ARE times when identification is not POSITIVE, that is just the way life is. WAR STORY COMING: I was a uniform cop in Harlem (NYC); we received a call of a young black male with a gun (surprise, in Harlem?) who had just shot a drug dealer during a rip-off and had fled on foot into the projects. We split up to check out some of the stairwells, and as I was climbing the stairs I heard running feet and a black guy burst around the landing in front of me with a gun in his hand. I was in a bad position, he had the high ground with his gun out (but not pointed DIRECTLY at me). I had my gun out when I heard the running feet coming down the stairs and was bringing my model 10 up to shoot (not much time to decide) when I saw the guy was wearing the "color of the day" as a headband, the next second I saw the shield dangling from a chain around his neck. I was almost going to shoot a fellow cop. THAT's THE POINT I FEEL BIKENUT IS TRYING TO MAKE...even though you may be legally allowed to shoot IT IS STILL THE WRONG DECISION. Volunteer firemen do show up in their personal cars without sirens wailing; simply put people are human and humans make mistakes. I am comfortable with my ability to protect what is important to me, especially in the given scenario.
I (unlike some of you other guys) respect others views. I know they mean well, they are just wrong... but that is their right as well. Regards, Pako.
Originally posted by Bikenut
... We, as people who carry guns, have at our disposal the means to save lives. That is a huge responsibility. But the even bigger responsibility is to not take a life when it isn't absolutely necessary....
I "carry" to save the lives of innocents, not to save the lives of dangerous felons. But, on the other hand, I don't advocate shooting when it isn't necessary. The problem is that many don't have the experience to instantly recognize the difference.
Hesitate one second too long in a life/death situation, and you and yours may end up dead meat. While the felon you are so concerned about, goes on to kill even more innocents.
Bottom line: Being overly concerned with saving the lives of vicious armed home invaders can get you (and your loved ones) killed. ;P ;Q ;P
bikenut said. "Perhaps I have not explained myself well enough in this thread. The only thing I've been saying is that it is necessary to IDENTIFY who is doing what and why before opening fire.
I totally agree one must make the ID, however time usually doesn't permit figuring out the why of it.
I somewhat agree with the flavor of his posts but my experience indicates it is more idealistic than realistic.
Originally posted by HBAR
The only line that would be crossed is the the CHALK LINE that is drawn around the b/g that marks the spot where he/she hit the floor..
Why does everyone reach for a pistol? The Ar15 .223 round is SOOO much better as a stopping round... I'll have to find the article so hold the chatter.
Colt shorty w/high power flashlight and laser has scared many a folk who decided to accidently to take a walk in my backyard. Motion sensors, fences and trees make it very difficult to cut thru. Why would they take the hard way in? Lights make a great deterrent..
I would never expire anyone in my yard, just didn't want them there. What are they gonna do, call the police on me???
As for the home invasion break in, they don't stand a chance.....
Interesting, that means you have that trusty ole AR in hand or in reach ALL the time you are at home. Why do I reach for a pistol ? Because it is ALWAYS in reach.
I was under the impression here in NC that you could not use deadly force on anyone in your home that was not an "imminent" threat to my or my family's lives. Wrong.
The Sherriff's department says if someone is in your house, armed or not, after you ask them to leave, they can be labeled as grave fodder.
Yes, I know of the many circumstances and scenarios as posted here, but....there's a clear advantage given to homeowners.
10mm_Bob
10-10-2004, 13:02
Of course, all states have different laws. Fortunately, here in Colorado the homeowner has a distinct advantage. I personally don't see too many scenarois where an intruder in your home should not be considered an imminent threat.
My wife and I are both shooters, and we PRACTICE tactical scenarios in our home. We also have a dog that sleeps at the top of the stairs. An intruders chance of getting into our home undetected are slim. But even if they do, they'd be facing two trained and armed homeowners, who have practiced in the environment.
Our first line of defense is our handguns, but the long guns are readily available if the situation permits (my Remington 870 - tactical configuration - is nearly as quick to access as my handgun). We've had one actual situation of an attempted breakin. The dog scared them off before I got there with the handgun. I looked out in time to see a rear end going over the backyard fence. I just called the cops, and went back to bed and slept just fine :)
DB
Originally posted by talon
bikenut said. "Perhaps I have not explained myself well enough in this thread. The only thing I've been saying is that it is necessary to IDENTIFY who is doing what and why before opening fire.
I totally agree one must make the ID, however time usually doesn't permit figuring out the why of it.
I somewhat agree with the flavor of his posts but my experience indicates it is more idealistic than realistic.
I'm not taking umbrage with what you have said about idealist vs realistic. I've already been involved as a 3 foot away from the action armed witness to an attempted murder. Legally I could have shot the actor, morally I could have also... except he had left the safety on and his gun didn't fire and I chose not to shoot. All three of us are still alive today... one is in prison.
So I'm well aware that the "shoot, don't shoot" line is so very fine and changes from millisecond to millisecond that it ends up being a judgement call that I hope very few have to make.
That situation involved a for sure man engaging in a felonious act so identifying him was no problem. The problem was identifying when to respond.
Now I know some will say I should have shot when his gun came out. Well, the amount of time from gun out to finger pulling trigger was so fast I was already far behind the curve. And the man, to this day, has no idea how close he came to my shooting him because when the gun didn't fire (I watched the hammer come back against the safety, Beretta Tomcat, and stop) I knew the safety was on and held my fire. When he realized it wouldn't fire he stared at it for a second and reholstered. The immediate threat was gone. Then he stomped out the door. Threat gone. And I put my gun away too.
Monday quarterback that incident as much as anyone wants. I still say there is no hard and fast "line in the sand", no set of circumstances that always require a lethal response. Bad situations happen so fast and are so ever changing it is impossible to say that just because someone is in the house killing them is justified. And the old "shoot first and ask questions later" attitude is a recipe for disaster.
Yes, that moment of hesitation it takes to identify gives a perp an advantage. But that advantage isn't as large as might be thought because it doesn't take anyone with half a brain more than a millisecond to figure out if it is perp or not.
I too understand how fluid and dynamic these things can be and I surely don't want to second guess you. However when I train I won't be training to see if the BG's safety is on or not. I'm sure you were using milliseconds as a phrase or I hope you were because I sure can't think/respond that fast. It's definitely tenths of a sec for me. Sounds to me like your post is a very good example of how luck enters in to these things.
I try to train for a planned response to an event because it seems to me if you don't you will always be so far behind the curve you will never catch up. Sounds to me like you understand the grave responsibilty that goes along with being an armed citizen and I applaud that.
TALON:
Why does everyone reach for a pistol? The Ar15 .223 round is SOOO much better as a stopping round... I'll have to find the article so hold the chatter.
I can reach my AR just as quickly as my G34; using this example when one is in bed and and hears a noise. I have many pieces around the house within easy reach.
Merely suggesting that with a surprising night-time wake-up, I would rather grab my Shorty w/flashlight and laser before my GL34.
Just depends where I am in the house as I may have both.. I have this strange growth on my side, but why does it have bullets?
Talon.. I used "millisecond" as a poor attempt at defining time as it is experienced in life/death incidents. It's all over in just a few short moments but that period of time is experienced in what seems like forever as it unfolds. Oddly enough there is time to actually think.. think fast, but think none the less... and even to think as you are taking action. There is time between draw and point to change your mind about firing. I did have an advantage in that incident since I owned a Beretta Tomcat at one time myself and I knew the safety allowed the hammer to come half way back but wouldn't let it go all the way. So I knew the safety was on at the time.
Anyway, I also train for a planned response, just not a: "If he does that I'll do this." Kind of thing but more of: "Am I sure? Now act!" Sometimes I'll face a target at the range, draw, point, and decide there is no reason to fire and abort. Other times I'll fire but only a few shots and decide the target died and is no longer a threat and stop. Or I'll empty my primary, draw the BUG and empty it, reload the BUG and empty that too. All in the hopes of training myself to be able to keep up with the reality that bad things happen so weirdly any one, or any combination, or all, of those responses might be needed.
And thanks, because I do take carrying a gun very, very, seriously.
bikenut said, There is time between draw and point to change your mind about firing. "
I have seen some research that indicates that might not be true. I haven't been able to locate it as of yet. I was looking for it because of another post I made. I came up with some tests for the range that will let me see for myself. Then again if you are drawing and pointing that would indicate you havent made a shoot decision yet so I might be speaking of something different here.
I have very limited actual experience but I haven't been through the slow motion that some folks do. I think things can be very different based on how much time you have between suspecting a threat and identifying a threat and how long the threat lasts. In my case it was about a second, two at the most and with everything being over in less that 5.
Originally posted by Bikenut
That situation involved a for sure man engaging in a felonious act so identifying him was no problem. The problem was identifying when to respond.
The ID question, I think, is what separates experienced cops from inexperienced citizens. Having been in literally hundreds of armed confrontations (every felony arrest I was involved in was done at gunpoint = 300-400 of my own + 300-400 as back-up) I feel I can instantly "know for sure" what the situation I'm facing really is. While others with little street experience, might not be able to "know" what's going on that fast.
So bear in mind that when I talk about responding instantly to threats, I'm speaking from an experienced cop's point of view. Which may, or may not, be appropriate for the less experienced.
Originally posted by talon
bikenut said, There is time between draw and point to change your mind about firing. "
I have seen some research that indicates that might not be true.
I've drawn on BG's without shooting hundreds of times. But those situations did not involve belly-to-belly life/death confrontations. If they had, my pistol would have been firing instantly after clearing the holster and centering the BG, and there would have been no way to stop it in time. We are talking about less than 1 second from start of draw to shoot, probably a lot less.
I was in three up close and personal "surprise" man-with-gun situations, but always reacted by grabbing the BG's gun hand with both of mine instead of blocking his gun and drawing/shooting. I know grabbing his gunhand wasn't the "best" solution, but it is a "normal" instinctive reaction, and I've seen other cops do the same thing. It's sort of like instinctively ducking when someone up close throws something at you by surprise.
So there are two basic types of draws. (1) You draw, intending to hold a BG at gunpoint, and shoot only if he doesn't surrender, and (2) your life is already in grave danger and you draw intending to shoot instantly (or faster). ;f ;P ;f
Once you start the #2 type draw you probably aren't going to be able to stop before shooting.
Originally posted by Bikenut
Say you shoot... then discover it is a confused escapee from a mental hospital. Or it is your uncle Joe drunk as a skunk.
First off, my friends and family are well aware of the fact I own and carry a firearm. They also know I keep guns and flashlights handy at night.
They know they had better knock before entering.
Second, I'm a Correctional Officer for a prison that houses the mentally disturbed. The mentally-disturbed inmates are kept on max lock-down. These are not people you want in your house. If I were to ever see one of these people in my house, they had better turn tail and run quick.
Three. Nobody should be shooting at targets they can't identify. I carry a surfire at all times.
Lennster
10-13-2004, 01:28
Someone that breaks into my home when I'm there will get shot. Period. Every person that knows me, including all of my neighbors, know that I carry when I'm awake and sleep next to a 12 Guage.
No warning. Just shooting. If I identify the target as a friendly as I am lining up the front sight and before the round goes off, they are lucky. If not, they are dead.
I live in a pretty small two story house. We all work strange schedules so Im usually up in the wee hours of the morning and so is my father in law. The first warning for a BG in my mind is the fact that we have 5 cars in the driveway. We ARE home, so if he decides to come in, then he must intend to do us harm or think he can overpower 4 people. We also have two dogs. The second anyone steps foot on our driveway the dog in the garage will bark uncontrollably. I consider this the 2nd warning for the BG. If the BG ingnores the dog and comes to the front or back door my Pittbull will bark uncontrollably as well. I consider this warning number 3. The second that a door or window opens and I ensure it is in fact a BG (although there is no reason for anyone to who is supposed to be here to be breaking through windows because we all have house keys) Im going to shoot. I figure if a BG was dumb enough/confident enough to ignore the fact that there are cars in the driveway, (most likely) lights on, and two big aggressive dogs (the pitt would probably attack the second he put a foot through the window), then he is here to hurt us. I dont think a robber would go through all that trouble and put their life obviously at risk for my VCR and DVD collection. that being said, family is the most important thing in my life. without them im nothing. So as a previous poster said, the walls of my house is my "line in the sand"
Elk-ruser
10-15-2004, 08:34
Shortest answer yet:
The door.
Erik
There is no legitimate reason you break into my house, even if you are a mental hospital escapee. You die. Period. I'll ID the target with warm red glow of my crimson trace on his skull cap. If I'm feeling lazy I'll ID him after I empty all five 3 1/2 000 buchshot shells from my beside Mossberg. Thank God TX doesn't ask questions. If you break in, I don't have to retreat or ask questions either.
Originally posted by Bikenut
Am I understanding this correctly? That you would shoot someone for the simple act of breaking into your home?
Until the barrel melted or I was out of ammo.
Seems like the same thing that always happens with these threads is reoccuring--hair splitting. Of course I'm not going to shoot my wife, a cop, a fireman, or my drunk uncle (if I had one), but it doesn't take long at all to identify who's there. LEO/firemen usually come in shouting their identification and wear a uniform. It won't be hard to identify them with the light from my crimson trace. In fact, I kinda hope that the laser itself will be intimidating and cause a retreat. Of course, they're retreat depends on how itchy my finger is. Hard to predict. Finally, I have no problem taking out the criminal element. Lord knows the justice system in this country could use some help.
RedhorseG20
10-17-2004, 00:14
"Second, I have a 191 lb Mastiff that should provide enough of a delay to let me get some wits about me and pick up the G21 on my nightstand."
I have seen this mastiff and I know for a fact that an 18 pound jack russell gives him hell. Good old sam is probably a speed bump for an intruder. If you want a real dog I'll loan you bailey. She scared the crap out of some girl at the front door trying to get me to vote for someone. bailey almost got her too! Girl jumped off the front porch real quick.
In case you are wondering Bailey is a german shepherd with a dislike of shadows and weird sounds. It is funny watching some unruly's walk down the street and cross sides when they come in front of my house because bailey is standing up on the fence telling them to come over and play. They never do and she is always unhappy. I love my free dog!
southparkaddict
10-20-2004, 11:08
Originally posted by talon
I feel exactly the same way. I will make the ID and if it costs my life so be it. I would sure rather be dead than shoot my kid because he lost his key and broke a window to get in.
Talon, wouldn't it make more sense to let your kid know that you are heavily armed, and walking around *your* house, in the dark, late at night, is probably not a very good idea? If the kid is educated that "Daddy will shoot me if I look like a burglar", then that's one less chance of getting shot *you* take if the situation comes up.
I know, from personal experience, and before I ever got CCW'd ...when I'd come home late, even using my key to the front door ...I would always hear my Dad rustling in the bedroom - I would announce, in a strong whisper "don't shoot, it's just me"... always did the trick.
Similarly, if you and your son/daughter came up with a comparable "code" to use, just in case they DID have to come through a window, problem solved. ...just my .02 :)
southparkaddict
10-20-2004, 11:12
Originally posted by V Creed
Anyone who can't tell the difference between firemen and robbers/rapists shouldn't have a gun.
It's even simpler than that...
Firemen are usually surrounded by red, flashing lights, and really loud sirens. Rapists aren't. :)
southparkaddict
10-20-2004, 11:16
Originally posted by Bikenut
Am I understanding this correctly? That you would shoot someone for the simple act of breaking into your home?
Absolutely!
Where is the threat of bodily harm or death there?
Don't need it! God, I hate Tennessee, but I love it's gun laws! :)
glock19c
10-20-2004, 22:06
If an intruder gets past my dogs outside. Then the claymore mounted above my bedroom door will do the rest....
J/K
If someone enters my house mine and my families life is in danger and they are gonna go down by gunfire or any other means necessary...
southparkaddict
10-21-2004, 08:09
Originally posted by glock19c
...then the claymore mounted above my bedroom door will do the rest....
;N
After lurking and reading over several posts here is my Opinion. Use whatever force is justified by your State Law.
In Texas we are allowed to use deadly force to defend Life "or" property(when it is dark out).
That being stated if it is Day time and someone breaks into my house and I am home, I am going to "perceive" that the actor involved intended on doing myself or my family members serious bodily injury or death and I am going to use deadly force against them until their violent action(s) stop. By its very nature "Burglary" is a violent offense. Articulation is going to play a big role in your defense and justification. Was the suspect armed? Did he have any "suspicious" bulges in his pockets when you observed him that may have been a concealed weapon? Did he have his hands concealed in a jacket or in his pockets? Was there anything around him which could have immediately been procured by him and used as a weapon? Most importantly did you feel in fear of imminent bodily injury or death by his actions or presence. Needless to say it is not hard to "articulate" any of these points. The reason criminals do what they do is that there are people whom are complacent with being victimized. If you are going to "wait" until the come up the stairs. Or wait until they are within 21 feet, etc. You are not ready to use deadly force and should not attempt to employ it at all. Continue being a victim. If you are justified in using Deadly force use to defend your life, property etc.(you perceive a threat) USE IT. Dont be a victim.
andybtruckin
10-23-2004, 16:58
Someone breaks in to my house the dog goes nuts and I draw my weapon. If they choose not to leave when I shout that I'm armed and to get out then they have made their choice. If they continue towards me after being warned to leave then they get carried out in a bag. Life is all about choices.
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