Scope on a muzzleloader?

[vart]

I recently moved to Iowa, where my 3 deer, elk, and bear rifles are now simply conversation pieces;Q .
I had a CVA .54 cal. Mackinaw traditional muzzleloader that I haven't shot in 10 years, so I decided to use that to hunt this season, rather than buying a shotgun.
I took the ML to the range and after an hour of getting 8-12" groups at 50 yds. I decided that a scope was in order.
I ordered a CVA scope mount and scavanged a 3x9 off of my .257 Roberts and mounted it on my ML.
Now I feel like I commited an atrocity;g .
I was capable of 3" groups at 70 yds. with this gun 10 years ago. Now, my eyes are only capable of horrid groups that I don't feel comfortable going into the field with.
What would you do?
Would you keep the scope for the sake of humane and accurate kills? Or would you just buy a shotgun for deer hunting and scope that, leaving the traditional-weapon season to people who can use them as intended?

[vafish]

Did your groups get better after putting the scope on?

If so what does it matter what we think. You are the one that would have to track the wounded deer.

A traditionalist isn't going to like me hunting with an in-line anyways. (mine isn't scoped, yet)

And I'm sure someone would scream about my home made cammo paint job using the 3 red neck primary colors of Primer Red, Primer Gray, and Primer Black. But that stainless steel TC was just too bright in the woods for me.

[RJ Schuknecht]

Keep the scope and hunt. Don`t worry about what the traditionalist think about it.

Like vafish said, they won`t like my inline either.

[noway]

Keep the scope if it helps. I getting a scope for a Tominator shotgun muzzleloader and getting ready for out turkey season.

BTW: Also make sure you get a BlackPowder/SHOTGUN scope and you don't really need anything with any magnification power.

[vart]

I took the CVA to the range today and had a heck of a time sighting it in.
I was getting nice groups at 50 yds, then moved back to 100 yds. It's amazing how much a muzzleloader is affected by the extra 50 yds.

Plus, I'm not sure how many rounds you can fire through a muzzleloader before the barrel starts getting fouled and throws everything off.

I was trying to get it dialed in, and my groups were around 10" at 100 yds. I know I was aiming at the exact same spot since I had the scope on 9X and was using a rest.

The first 10 rounds seemed to be grouping very nicely, then things started going all over the place :( .

I'll have to bring my brush and some soapy water to the range next time to clean it out midway through my range session.

[StockGlock23]

Originally posted by vart
my groups were around 10" at 100 yds

Is this normal for traditional style MLs? My inline can do a 2.5-3 inchs group at 100 yds. I have a Traditions .54 cal with a Tasco 3-9x40 Pronghorn scope. I shoot 100 grains of Pyrodex and a 295 gr. Powerbelt all lead hollowpoints. I thought traditional MLs could do at least 4-5 inches.

[buckfever34]

This will go strongly agains the traditionalist but if I were you this is what I'd do...

If you can save up some $ I would purchase an inline muzzleloader. These vary greatly in prices and it does not take a $600 TC Encore to kill a deer. Also, you are allowed to use a blackpowder weapon for both shotgun and muzzleloader seasons so you can pull double duty with one weapon which is much easier to load and clean and is also more accurate.

The bottome line is 60 to 75 yards is the maximum distance for open sights in most applications. When you are aiming much beyond this distance the front sight seems to "cover up" the entire animal. Scopes help greatly, but like the guy mentioned in a previous post you want a low-power shotgun/ML scope. In addition, these scopes will withstand the recoil better and will be less likely to lose zero.

With a 150 grain pelleted powder charge and some of the nice saboted bullets muzzloaders are effective tools out to 150 yards. Some will even say farther than that but I won't risk it.

I have taken several deer in the past with my ML. At 100 yards I get 3" groups. I have a Knight Disc Extreme. Use three 50 grain pellets. And Barnes Red Hot 250 grain sabots.

Whether traditionalist or not, it is better to have a weapon you are confident you can make a "clean" kill with.

Sorry this post is so long, hope it helps.

Clint Waskom

[vart]

Originally posted by StockGlock23
I thought traditional MLs could do at least 4-5 inches.
Mine can, but not after 20+ shots through it without cleaning.

[StockGlock23]

This is a question for anybody who uses the magnun charges in their MLs. Do you really get a good use of all that powder when using 150 grains of pyrodex? I use one hundred grains and if I go any larger I am finding unburnt powder in the snow in front of me. I use the #209 shotshell primers so I am positive that ignition is not the issue. I also am using a 24" barrel. I understand that the 28" barrels may make good use of the extra powder but can 4" really translate to efficent use of 50 more grains of powder?

[StockGlock23]

Originally posted by vart
Mine can, but not after 20+ shots through it without cleaning.

Well I understand that without cleaning groups tend to increase. My ML can only do about 6-7 maybe 8 if I feel like stretching it without dancing the bullet around. I thought you meant that it would do this from totally clean.

[vart]

Yeah, I had no idea that the groups would get so bad so quickly;P .

I'm a total novice at this muzzleloading thing, but it is kinda fun;)

[Michigun]

Originally posted by vart
The first 10 rounds seemed to be grouping very nicely, then things started going all over the place :( .

EVERY muzzleloader shooter should read the following article on how to keep your gun’s accuracy from your 1st shot to your 50th shot! (It works!!!)

The “Spit Patch” Technique (http://www.prbullet.com/acc.htm)

[noway]

agreed, doing 20plus shots and expecting good accuracy is a hope and a wish if you don't swipe th barrel. Most muzzleloaders would find it hard if not possible to ram a projectile down a bore if you are using straight BP vrs a susbsitute and still they would foul up and make seating a projectile pretty much difficult.

I don't lick my patchs but do place a few solvent and swipe the bore 2-3 pass in between shots and my encore has made a few 3" groups @ 100yrds, if I'm steady behind the trigger. I use pyrodex behind all of my charges and just recently bought triple7s just to give it a try in 2 of the mzl. I'm still out investigating if triple7s is all that it claims to be.

[Michigun]

Originally posted by noway
I'm still out investigating if triple7s is all that it claims to be.

I find that it is!

[vafish]

Originally posted by Michigun
EVERY muzzleloader shooter should read the following article on how to keep your gun’s accuracy from your 1st shot to your 50th shot! (It works!!!)

The “Spit Patch” Technique (http://www.prbullet.com/acc.htm)

I can't believe a person from Michigan would suggest that method.

Obviously never hunted in the cold and had a "Spit Patch" freeze in the barrel.

I do agree that 777 is all it claims to be. It's all I use in my muzzle loaders now. (well I may shoot off the couple pounds of Pyrodex I have sitting around just for fun)

[noway]

{I can't believe a person from Michigan would suggest that method.}

now that's would be very true for the Michigan folks. LOL.

[vafish]

I grew up in Minnesota.

15 degrees on opening morning is not unheard of.

One shot out of a muzzle loader doesn't warm it up much, and by the time you run that spit patch down the barrel it's cooled back off enough to freeze the patch and ramrod in the barrel.

If it's above freezing outside I use a spit patch between shots.

[bustedknee]

Originally posted by StockGlock23
... Do you really get a good use of all that powder when using 150 grains of pyrodex? ...

I shoot a stainless Encore. 777 pellets, 209 primer, and power belt bullets. 2 pellets = 100 grains and give me 1500 fps. 3 pellets = 150 grains and give me 2100 fps.
Accuracy is less than 2 inches at 100 yards.

Nuff said?

[StockGlock23]

Originally posted by bustedknee
I shoot a stainless Encore. 777 pellets, 209 primer, and power belt bullets. 2 pellets = 100 grains and give me 1500 fps. 3 pellets = 150 grains and give me 2100 fps.
Accuracy is less than 2 inches at 100 yards.

Nuff said?


And here I stand...

Corrected!

I would love to get my hands on a chrono. I just can't afford one

[Michigun]

Originally posted by vafish
I can't believe a person from Michigan would suggest that method.

Believe it.

Originally posted by vafish
Obviously never hunted in the cold and had a "Spit Patch" freeze in the barrel.

Michigan’s muzzleloading season is in mid December so “cold” is an understatement… I’ve NEVER once had a “Spit Patch” freeze in my barrel, not once… I don’t even see how that could happen. In fact I’m going to say that it will not happen when done as described & that your statement is down right ridiculous.

(FYI, I sight-in/shoot how I hunt therefore I sight-in/shoot either just before muzzleloading or just after muzzleloading season (COLD weather!)… needless to say there have been MANY opportunities to have a “Spit Patch” freeze in my barrel(s)… hasn’t happened… has it actually happened to you vafish or is this something that you’ve dreamt up?)

If you’ve actually had a “Spit Patch” freeze in your barrel vafish (which I’m truly doubting here) then you ARE doing something wrong! (Possibly your jag is too small in diameter or your patches are too thin?)

[Michigun]

A little hint for those of you that use 209 primers in your muzzleloaders:

Instead of using the standard 209 primer use a .410 primer instead. The .410 primer is dimensionally identical to the standard 209 primer & has all of the same pluses… however the .410 primer has less power which in most instances (I’ve seen muzzleloader patterns cut in half (or better) in more then one ML by only changing out the above component with ones current load!) will actually improve the accuracy of your muzzleloader! (And don’t worry either; the .410 primer is still more then adequate at achieving reliable ignition in all climate conditions… the standard 209 is overkill!)

[vafish]

Originally posted by Michigun
Believe it.



Michigan’s muzzleloading season is in mid December so “cold” is an understatement… I’ve NEVER once had a “Spit Patch” freeze in my barrel, not once… I don’t even see how that could happen. In fact I’m going to say that it will not happen when done as described & that your statement is down right ridiculous.

(FYI, I sight-in/shoot how I hunt therefore I sight-in/shoot either just before muzzleloading or just after muzzleloading season (COLD weather!)… needless to say there have been MANY opportunities to have a “Spit Patch” freeze in my barrel(s)… hasn’t happened… has it actually happened to you vafish or is this something that you’ve dreamt up?)

If you’ve actually had a “Spit Patch” freeze in your barrel vafish (which I’m truly doubting here) then you ARE doing something wrong! (Possibly your jag is too small in diameter or your patches are too thin?)

Yes it can happen, 15 degree morning, Cold barrel liquid spit, cold metal tip on the end of the ramrod equals frozen patch in barrel.

Am I doing something wrong? Maybe too much spit, maybe I move to slow.

But I have had it happen as a younger lad in Minneosta using my CVA .45 Cal. Kentucky rifle. The only way the patch came out was to go back to the cabin and warm the gun up.

I still use spit patches here in VA, but I won't use them when the temp drops below 32 degrees.

[TScottW99]

I've never had a spit patch freeze. Sounds like too much spit. You don't need much, like Cecil said in that article, lick the patch. No need to work up a big one or drool on it ;e ;)

[vafish]

I've always opened my mouth, put the patch on my tounge, then closed my mouth pushing the patch up to the roof of my mouth. They aren't dripping with spit, but they are good and wet.

[Sixgun_Symphony]

You might try using a peep sight on that traditional muzzle loader.

Do you get in regular practice? Try running a damp patch down the barrel between shots while at the range.

What is the diameter of the ball? What is the thickness of the patch? How much gunpowder?

[vart]

I'm using a .530 ball, with .015 patches, and 95 grains of Pyrodex. My patches are pre-lubed with bore butter

[StockGlock23]

In case some people did not know...Bore butter is basically a solid form of food grade silicone. This is the same stuff used in food factories to lube gears and things that may be in close contact with food. I use a can of spray silicone (food grade) when I am prepping a dozen or more powerbelts as they sit in the tray. Seems to work great for me. Just an FYI and a hint to make the reloading a little easier.

[rfb45colt]

All these responses... and nobody has mentioned barrel twist-rate and what kind of projectiles are causing bad groups past 50 yds???? Is he using roundballs, mini-balls, or sabots?

If the CVA "traditional" muzzleloader Vart is using has a twist-rate intended solely for patched round balls (typically 1 in 66") and he's shooting saboted bullets or miniballs, he's actually doing pretty good obtaining a 10" group at 100 yds... scope or no scope. A slow twist rate, typical of the "traditional" sidelocks, is far too slow a twist rate to properly stabilize a saboted bullet. Modern inlines, which sabots are intended for, have a much faster twist-rate... something like 1 in 28". Some "traditional" muzzleloaders have a "compromise" twist rate (my Traditions Hawkwen is 1-48"), that will shoot both roundballs and sabots equally well... but not as good as a good match of twist rate and projectile.

When shooting "smokepoles", to get the best accuracy, the most important thing to consider is not powder charges nor ignition, but using the proper projectile for the barrel.

[Michigun]

Originally posted by rfb45colt
All these responses... and nobody has mentioned barrel twist-rate and what kind of projectiles are causing bad groups past 50 yds???? Is he using roundballs, mini-balls, or sabots?


Originally posted by vart
I'm using a .530 ball, with .015 patches, and 95 grains of Pyrodex.

[noway]

rfb45colt, has it right. The barrel twrist is just as important as the powder charge and ignition. To much rifling would lead to bad performance for a patch ball and the same wholes true to patch thickness or lack of thickness.

[rfb45colt]

Originally posted by Michigun


Oops... I didn't see that post. I'm using an old windows 95 computer with a dial-up ISP, and sometimes my browser doesn't load all the posts in a thread on my 1st try. It's aggravating, to say the least, to have to reload several times just to read an entire thread, and I didn't do it this time. Sorry I missed Vart's response on what he's using.

[allhowl]

Not traditional but I put my Bushnell Holosight on my CVA in-line.
Its light and makes it easy to see the sight with both eyes open and is great for moving game. I won't shoot farther than 125 yds. and prefer to get as close as possible.

So regarding the spit & wipe method after each shot, how do you foul
the barrel before the deer hunt? I don't want to shoot it in camp or in the field before Ihunt so, WHAT DO YOU DO?

[muddydog]

i've been busy and i'm late for the thread..LoL..

thats a 48twist...right??

drop down to 80grs..maybe 85.

i have never had a round ball work well with a faster twist gun without a reduced charge.

+1 for the peep...

have you ever tried a conical..i can recommend without hesitation the Buffalo Bullet maxi balls..prelubed hollowbase, hollowpoint.

in .50's they shoot very well and hit like a ton O' bricks..with full power loads.
100-120gr eq of cleanshot/american pioneer powder and your set.