convince me that 9mm is a good defensive ammo

[svetlio]

Dear niners,

please try to convince me that 9mm is a better defensive ammo than other standard ammo (40, 45, 10 mm, etc).. Please forget the argument that it is cheaper and one can practice more - that's clear. Let's talk about the ammo performance itself.¨

Thanks in advance.

Svetlio

[Guy Powell]

I guess one could just shoot themself in the left leg with a 9mm round and then in the right leg with a 40 cal round and see which one does the most damage?
Why would you need convincing? Shot placement/timing are what's essential. I spent 2 years in Vietnam and 11 years as a big city police officer, during which time I never saw anyone taken out because they fired the wrong calibre round at the enemy.

[JBA111]

Sev all handgun calibers are weak as man killers go!!
the 9MM, 40S&W and 45Acp are about in the same handling ballpark, the 9mm will have the least room for margin of error with the 40S&W will be alittle more forgiveing with hit placement and the 45 being about the most distructive to tissue of the three.
The 10MM is on par with the 357Mag as far as power and harsh recoil. and should lead the pack for distruction.
Don't be so quick to toss out the cheap ammo point. With pistol power shot placement is the key. And at self defense ranges and self defense time frames instinctive shooting or ingraned shooting technique is very likely to be a major factor in how you react and where you hit. And this ingraned technique comes from many many rnds of practice, thus the cheap ammo.
I don't know anyone who shoots less cause the ammo is cheap you just get to shoot more for the same price,haha
But get the caliber you shoot the best and practice all you can

[svetlio]

Shot placement/timing are what's essential. I spent 2 years in Vietnam and 11 years as a big city police officer, during which time I never saw anyone taken out because they fired the wrong calibre round at the enemy.
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Sir,

that's a good and useful post for me. Thanks!

Svetlio

[cl147]

If it sucked, I wouldn't use it to defend my family. ;)

[cl147]

Okay, now that I have THAT out of the way...

http://www.again.net/~steve/page8f9mmluger.html
Lots of pictures, not dial-up friendly.

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/9/9mm-advoc.htm
A nice article on the 9mm.

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/default.aspx
Winchester's Law Enforcement page. Good ballistic information on their 9mm ammunition.

[Guy Powell]

that's a good and useful post for me. Thanks

Hey svetlio, I truly didn't mean my post to come across like a smart aleck. Hope I didn't offend you. When I went back back and re-read it this morning I thought, oops, maybe I shouldn't have been my blunt self.
Don't know your intended purpose for the ammo. If it's for military use, far distances/multiple targets/many rounds extended/ then the larger caliber may be beneficial. As for my 12 years policing, I saw a lot of gang-related shootings. The vast majority of killings were done with a 380acp. Again, timing, range from target, and shot placement are what counted.

[Sulaco]

please try to convince me that 9mm is a better defensive ammo than other standard ammo (40, 45, 10 mm, etc)..

Why? If you need convincing, you should be carrying something you feel comfortable with. Confidence in your ability and being able to stay calm and focused will get you through a firefight quicker and more alive than a bullet's size or performance.

[svetlio]

Hey svetlio, I truly didn't mean my post to come across like a smart aleck. Hope I didn't offend you. When I went back back and re-read it this morning I thought, oops, maybe I shouldn't have been my blunt self.
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Guy,

it didn't offend me at all..:) I really ment it when I said that I am glad for your post about your experience in Vietnam and policing.

By the way, I need it for self defense. But you know, one hears all the time, that 9mm is a poor man-stopper, 45 is much better, 10mm ever better, and so on.....

Thanks

Svetlio

[LSP972]

<<...one hears all the time...>>

Usually from some person or entity with an agenda.

Guy is right. Bullet placement and other parameters (physical/mental condition of the shootee, what he's wearing, etc.) have more to do with the outcome than anything else when handguns are involved.

When I ran our Firearms Unit, I was hit with this question a lot. My standard answer became; "Well, if the 9mm is so weak, let me shoot you with it and then you tell me it doesn't hurt."

We've had a lot of shootings with both 9mm and .45ACP. The incapacitation ratio has been the same; as has, come to think of it, the ratio with .40 S&W, which became an authorized caliber for us a few years ago. We've only had a couple with the .40 so far; just SWAT is issued that caliber (G35), and those few troopers who purchased their own .40 pistol, are using it.

The bottom line is that service handgun rounds are marginal. But they do what they need to do; get someone off of you, and/or make him stop what he's doing to annoy you...;)

[Guy Powell]

someone off of you, and/or make him stop what he's doing to annoy you

This is so correct. I believe svlieto isn't in America so I don't know the laws where he's at. Here, in most states, a civilian has the "duty to retreat" in a street shooting type situation. In other words, do what's ARTICULABLY necessary to get away from the threat and no more. As much as we'd like to blow some folks away the law doesn't really like that.
I find that I carry my Colt 380 (I'm still in law enforcement)more than just about anything due to it's small size and ability to drop in my pocket. Yes, only 8 rounds of 380, but that would get me away from the danger, hopefully, and back to my car for my Glock 19. There are times when I'm truly thankful to have larger amounts of ammo available though. When walking our dogs here in east Texas we're confronted often with coyotes/wild dogs. Times past a coyote would run off after a round or two shot at them, but now they've inter-bred so much with domestic dogs that they're losing their fear of man. I'm glad to have a big bunch of 9mm to hurl at them rather than just 7-8 rounds of 45.
Old U.S. Airborne saying from Vietnam, "When it doubt, empty it out!"

[svetlio]

Thanks to all of you for your comments. I have been reading a lot about calibers and ballistics for the last 1 year. I have been trying to pick up the best round for personal defense. The more I read what you post, the more I think that the 9mm is maybe the most reasonable round against people. Here are the few main things that convinced me most of all:

- ability to shoot fast series due to less recoil and better placement
- the awareness that 9 can practically do the same job like 40 or 45, when it is +p and JHP or similar.
- cheaper so more practice (I knew this myself)
- good mag capacity
- 9 mm flies flat cause it is light at higher speeds than .40 or .45, so one is more exact at longer distances (not so important for personal defense, I know)
- ......???

More points welcome.

Thanks.

Svetlio

[LSP972]

Your last point is irrelevant, and the first one is suspect to some. You might be accused of subscribing to the "spray'n'pray" school of thought...;)

But I'll tell you this: a G34 with tactical light (M3, SF X200, or the Glock offering) attached not only makes one heck of a "house gun", it also shoots like a .22, since the 3-4 ounces under the muzzle really subdues muzzle flip.

I shot such a combination the other day. I used to carry a G35 with M3 when on SWAT, and I have one (M3) on a G19 that I shoot occasionally, so I knew the light helped tame muzzle flip. But the G34 with light attached has practically NONE.

Guess what I'm saving for now????;f

[Mad Ryan]

Besides, if you shoot something with 9mm powerball and it gets back up then you better run like hell because it isn't mortal. ;b

[BikerRN]

I'll let you convince yourself that 9mm is a good defensive round.

Stand 25 yards downrange from me. Then let me shoot at the target, you are the target.

OK, sorry for being a wiesenhimer, but I had to say that. No handgun caliber is a magical stop all. The handgun is something we use when we don't really think we are going to get into a gunfight. If I knew that I had to be in a gunfight I would have a rifle or a shotgun and a squad.

I think the important issue is, what caliber can we shoot effectivly to stop the possible threat. I can shoot a 45 acp pretty good but find that in the same amount of time it takes me to do a double tap with the 45 that I can have 3 rounds downrange with my 9mm.

Lets do the math: 2 rounds of a .451 size bullet or
3 rounds of a .355 size bullet.

SOLUTION: I love the 45 and often carry one, but feel no way impeded with a 9mm and have one as my NY Reload.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

By the way, in my book an accurate double tap is one that both rounds can be covered with the same palm but the rounds aren't touching.

[porterfield]

Have a G23 and G36.
Just bought a G19 with OD frame. I love it. Shoots very accurately and able to shoot followup shots much quicker than the 23 or 36.

[JMag]

All are effective(as handgun rounds go) if you practice with your choice(s) and do your part. It really is that simple. Anyone telling you differently either has an agenda, is close-minded to other options, or both.