View Full Version : Dry fire vs Live fire trigger pull
Been spending about 90% of my weapons training time dry firing my G17, and 10% live fire (100-150 rounds per session). I've pretty much gotten the dry fire down to the point where there is no movement of the front sight post the majority of times I pull the trigger. Results have been translating into better live fire shooting, so it seems to be working. However I've noticed that the trigger pull when the weapon is loaded seems to be considerably heavier than while dry firing. I've been shooting very slowly at the range, dry firing, then live firing interchangeably, and I definitely notice the difference. This added trigger weight and my pull make the front sight shake more than usual and my resulting groups suggest some jerking go along. Is this difference in dry fire/live fire trigger pull normal? Appreciate any insights...
Timber Wolf
10-08-2004, 14:53
Originally posted by ataha
Been spending about 90% of my weapons training time dry firing my G17, and 10% live fire (100-150 rounds per session). I've pretty much gotten the dry fire down to the point where there is no movement of the front sight post the majority of times I pull the trigger. Results have been translating into better live fire shooting, so it seems to be working. However I've noticed that the trigger pull when the weapon is loaded seems to be considerably heavier than while dry firing. I've been shooting very slowly at the range, dry firing, then live firing interchangeably, and I definitely notice the difference. This added trigger weight and my pull make the front sight shake more than usual and my resulting groups suggest some jerking go along. Is this difference in dry fire/live fire trigger pull normal? Appreciate any insights...
Shoot with a friend. Have him (or her) load several magazines alternating live rounds and dummy rounds at various intervals (so they are not all live, dummy, live, dummy). Then load up and practice your trigger pull. If you know the ammo is live you may still be anticipating recoil, and so you may be altering your trigger pull enough to at least make it seem the pull is heavier, if not actually making it heavier somehow. How it would be heavier I have no idea. Guys (and gals)??
Thanks for your reply, I'll definitely go with a buddy next time. I don't know if it was just a perception thing with the trigger pull, but it sure did seem heavier when a round was in the chamber. Doesn't make sense to me either, perhaps it just has something to do with recoil anticipation.
Beware of the dummy round drill. If you watch the pro's and they have a missfire you will see muzzle movement. They are "timing the gun". IMHO the best way to check things out is to have a digital cam. Then you can see exactly what is gong on. I have found that if my sights dip directly below my aiming point when I hit the dummy round everything is still ok.
Timber Wolf
10-08-2004, 16:13
Originally posted by talon
.... If you watch the pro's and they have a missfire you will see muzzle movement. They are "timing the gun".
....
huh??
Explain, please.
Originally posted by Timber Wolf
huh??
Explain, please.
I'm not really qualified, you can do a search on timing the gun or even better give Matt Burkett a call and he can explain it much better than I can. But basically its about recoil management. If you are shooting .1 splits and the round doesn't fire your going to see the muzzle dip.
When I practiced very slow life fire, I did notice a bit of muzzle dip as I was squeezing the trigger, just before the shot break. I just assumed that it was considered 'movement' and should be eliminated. The good thing is that I haven't noticed and lateral movement while squeezing the trigger, just this tendency for the muzzle to want to dip. I don't know about the 'timing the gun' concept, but when I did switch to more rapid fire practice, I did feel like I was somehow managing the recoil, but isn't that normal in more rapid fire (I still don't know much about rapid fire, so I don't really practice it, still working on slow fire and marksmanship fundamentals). The digital cameral idea is great, I'll try that too next time. Thanks.
If you can see the muzzle dip prior to the shot then that would be recoil anticipation. Or in my case a flinch. :)
Originally posted by ataha
When I practiced very slow life fire, I did notice a bit of muzzle dip as I was squeezing the trigger, just before the shot break. I just assumed that it was considered 'movement' and should be eliminated. The good thing is that I haven't noticed and lateral movement while squeezing the trigger, just this tendency for the muzzle to want to dip. I don't know about the 'timing the gun' concept, but when I did switch to more rapid fire practice, I did feel like I was somehow managing the recoil, but isn't that normal in more rapid fire (I still don't know much about rapid fire, so I don't really practice it, still working on slow fire and marksmanship fundamentals). The digital cameral idea is great, I'll try that too next time. Thanks.
Originally posted by ataha
When I practiced very slow life fire, I did notice a bit of muzzle dip as I was squeezing the trigger, just before the shot break. I just assumed that it was considered 'movement' and should be eliminated. The good thing is that I haven't noticed and lateral movement while squeezing the trigger, just this tendency for the muzzle to want to dip. I don't know about the 'timing the gun' concept, but when I did switch to more rapid fire practice, I did feel like I was somehow managing the recoil, but isn't that normal in more rapid fire (I still don't know much about rapid fire, so I don't really practice it, still working on slow fire and marksmanship fundamentals). The digital cameral idea is great, I'll try that too next time. Thanks.
If you are noticing muzzle dip as you are pressing the trigger it's possible that you are increasing your grip pressure. Grip the gun prior to pressing the trigger and maintain that level throughout the process of making the shot.
Deaf Smith
10-08-2004, 18:57
ataha,
There is more than dryfiring. You need to practice all gun handling techniques with the unloaded gun. Dryfiring the trigger is just part. And I can say 80 precent of my 'shooting' is with unloaded glocks. I do quite a bit of dry firing but usually while practicing other things.
Deaf
stevegun1
10-08-2004, 19:21
I agree with Talon sonewhat on the "beware the dummy round drill". The only reason we use it is to teach/drill on Condition 1: Failure to Fire/Extract. Solution: Tap,Rack,Aim and PRESS THE TRIGGER if/as needed. However, a dummy round will show if the shooter is anticipating recoil.
We always teach PRESS THE TRIGGER, not squeeze or pull. Squeeze and pull lead to the wrong thoughts. Pressing the trigger is a deliberate action, as you slowly apply pressure to the trigger until the sear releases the hammer or firing pin to fire the cartridge. Think about this because when you go to court it will sound as if you were more in control, because you were.
Different pressure required from dry to live fire? I know of no weapon (firearm)that will produce this effect. Why? There's nothing in the trigger,sear,hammer,firing pin train that's in contact with the empty or loaded chamber prior to the sear's relaese.
Remember; sight picture, sight picture, press, sight picture, press, sight picture, BANG, sight picture. This thought process has worked for many in the past and will serve many more in the future.
I hope this has been of some help.
Steve V.
WTS
stevegun1 said, "However, a dummy round will show if the shooter is anticipating recoil."
If anticipating the recoil means the muzzle dips before the round is fired then I disagree. There is no way to tell if you were anticipating or managing the recoil. Where managing means bringing the muzzle down after the round has fired for the next shot. With the dummy round drill I mean.
Thanks for all your replies. I also read some of Matt Burkett's articles and did some additional 'after action review', and I realize now that there is a lot going on here! I think the post with regard to maintaining constant grip throughout is very relevant. I did some more dry fire this evening focusing on correct grip, and realized that I wasn't concentrating on this aspect enough while I was at the range, and that it has a huge impact on correct trigger manipulation. I agree that mechanically speaking there should be no difference between live fire and dry fire trigger squeeze, I think it was really a 'perception' thing going on. I realize now that it probably had a lot to do with improper grip, or rather, my grip was not firm enough to facilitate pressing the trigger evenly throughout, and the muzzle dip is probably indicative of some degree of recoil anticipation. All this points to more careful and correct practice of grip, sight picture, and recoil control. Always back to the basics I guess. Once again appreciate the replies.
tact-shooter
10-09-2004, 18:27
Front sight dropping after the striker drops is O.K. What Talon is saying about this is correct. Timing the gun is used to snap the front sight back down after the shot is fired for a quick follow up shot. However this distinctly different from the sight dropping before the striker drops. If the sights are aligned when the round goes off you're O.K. Good shooters practice snapping the front sight back down onto target after the round goes off for a quick follow-up. I wouldn't try this until you're a reasonably good shooter. It can cause you to flinch anticipating the recovery after the shot.
stevegun1
10-10-2004, 13:14
Talon,
Anticipating Recoil vs. Recoil Managment:
Rifle shooters might say "follow through" were long range pistol shooters might say "riding the recoil" The only recoil managment is not to drop the handgun. The muzzle will rise as the bullet leaves it no matter what you do. How much is determined by caliber and weapon design, although strength does enter into it.
IMHO, Recoil Managment is getting the weapon back on target in as short a time as possible for a correct sight picture. Anticipating recoil will never lead to accurate results. Anyone who's worked with a student with a "flinch" knows this. Also it is sometimes difficult to break this habit. One way that works well (so they see that they are losing the sight picture when they do this)is to load empty chambers or dummy rounds where they can not see where they are. Soon they learn to maintain their sight picture throught pressing the trigger and the follow though and they begin to shoot tighter groups. In my experience this method has never failed.
stevegun 1
Stevegun1, I stand by my posts and we are pretty much in agreement but just as an aside you said, "The muzzle will rise as the bullet leaves it no matter what you do. " I have personally witnessed a compensated AR where the muzzle dipped when the bullet was fired.
I personally use the ball and dummy drill to see what my sights do when I hit the dummy round. If they are low left I worry, if they are directly below my poa I don't.
Went to the range for the first time since my first posting. This time I had some dummy rounds as well. I shot the first 30 rounds on bullseye targets at 5m and 7m. I began by dry firing, and then shot a few 5 round groups. Much better than last time, but not as tight as usual. I then began the dummy drill, mixing in some dummy rounds. Figured out there was some flinching going on. I was able to identify the source, when I didn't concentrate on smooth trigger pull and good grip, errant shots resulted. Once I settled down and concentrated on trigger squeeze, I shot much tighter 3" groups out to 10m. Out to 15m, shot placement was much more scattered though. At that distance my meprolight front sight covers the ccm red spot on the reduced size silhoutte. Definitely need more work on long range! Thanks for the advice guys, it worked.
stevegun1
10-14-2004, 16:51
Ataha;
I'm glad to read that your seeing some improvement by concentrating grip and trigger control. IMO, the grip should never change from the holster to the target. This is the first step in presenting your weapon. Please think next of the sight picture and then the trigger press. Years ago i always said "squeeze the trigger", I've broken that habit so mind will slowly "press" the trigger.
Happy practice! Front sight, press, front sight, front sight, press- BANG!
stevegun1
Personally I'm more like, slackout, site, press, slackout,site press, slackout. The trigger gets released in there somehow. :)
stevegun1
10-16-2004, 21:09
Talon;
Slackout? Single or two-stage trigger presses all start with taking up the "slack". However, IMHO first and always comes sight alignment, before the trigger press begin. This of course addresses when we are using a sight alignment and are not shooting enstinctively, where we are trained to to aligned the sights through proper grip and stance (shooting platform) but they are slightly below our true "line of sight".
So, front sight, then the trigger control begins.
stevegun1
Originally posted by stevegun1
Talon;
Slackout? Single or two-stage trigger presses all start with taking up the "slack". However, IMHO first and always comes sight alignment, before the trigger press begin. This of course addresses when we are using a sight alignment and are not shooting enstinctively, where we are trained to to aligned the sights through proper grip and stance (shooting platform) but they are slightly below our true "line of sight".
So, front sight, then the trigger control begins.
stevegun1
I can certainly understand where you are coming from. However I begin slack out just after my hands come together and the muzzle is on target and my arms are extending. I happen to shoot glocks and slack out is a pretty concsious thing for me. I do recognize that there are some very very good trigger slappers out there.
When I practice Dry-firing at home, it seems to go well as far as sight movement. however, when I'm at the range, I notice a few of the shots are to the left, or low. As I'm Left handed, what might I be doing and how do I fix it while live firing? I'm thinking anticipated recoil, and bad trigger press of sorts maybe?
Like TCM, I experienced a difference between dry firing and live firing. Just knowing that there would be recoil altered my trigger press without me being able to avoid it. I could not "will" it (even though I have a strong will--I even quit smoking after 23 years!).
What cured my problem was intensive practice with mixed loads of live and dummy rounds. At first, 70% dummy/30% live, later more like the opposite.
What it did was this: on the 70/30 mix, I sort of could expect to get a dummy, so I was relaxed and could contentrate on a controlled trigger press. The occasional live round fired correctly and hit where I wanted it.
With more confidence that I COULD do it, I continued to do well with the 30/70 mix.
Later, with a 100% live mag, I was able to keep up the relaxed trigger control. I had come to accept the bang/recoil result of a live round.
I sit an empty .22 casing on the top of the slide for dry fire practice and make sure it doesn't fall off. Also since the casing is so narrow it can be done during live fire and you can still see the sights. Then you can focus on keeping the casing from falling and not worry about the recoil.
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