shooting without aiming

[jethro21]

i recently read a book about the forming of delta force, and the author rights a chapter about how they were trained to shoot. i can't remember the specifics, but basically their weapons never came above their shoulder and their eyes didn't even see the sights. i was wondering if anyone had some info or training for this type of shooting, and personal thoughts.

thx,
jethro

[owl6roll]

http://www.bobtuley.com/pointshooting.htm

[9millie]

Originally posted by jethro21
i recently read a book about the forming of delta force, and the author rights a chapter about how they were trained to shoot. i can't remember the specifics, but basically their weapons never came above their shoulder and their eyes didn't even see the sights. i was wondering if anyone had some info or training for this type of shooting, and personal thoughts.

thx,
jethro
The method is called instinctive shooting or point shooting and it has been coverd here many times.
Do a search under point shooting, Matthew Temkin, Deaf Smith, 7677 Swacje41 & David Armstrong for starts and let the good times roll.

[Gecko10]

This is a very controversial topic. The system you are referring to probably has its genesis in the Fairbairn/Sykes system developed in the late 1930's and taught to the OSS and other special services during WWII. The book Shooting To Live by Fairbairn and Sykes is probably the seminal work on this system, though there are a lot of modern updates to it. It is, as already pointed out, most commonly referred to now-a-days as Point Shooting and there are many modern day advocates.

I will not involve myself in any arguments about the merits or defense of Point Shooting (been there, done that) other than to say that I use it exclusively from about 10 yards in and it is very effective for me. Then again I very, very rarely do any SD practice or training from a static firing position. I am always in rapid motion (usually obliquely forward or rearward) while firing and rarely ever from a distance of more than 10 yards and usually much closer, where 98% of real gunfights are known to occur. This sort of rapid movement does not lend itself to a hard sight picture, at least for me.

Everything I have read, seen and been taught about real gunfights has made me a firm believer that in order to survive you have got to be in constant motion once the fight begins.

Check out the Trainer's Corner at www.warriortalk.com for a current discussion of some of the aspects of Point shooting. Also read this: http://www.suarezinternational.com/igfdebriefing.html

If you are truly interested in training then for us, here in the SW, check out Close Range Gunfighting I & II and later Interactive (FOF) Gunfighting offered by www.suarezinternational.com. The book The Secrets of Reality Based Gunfighting would be a good place to start, though some of the close contact, integrated force drills should not be attempted without instruction.

[brownie]

Gecko10:

regarding the "merits or defense of Point Shooting" and,

"I use it exclusively from about 10 yards in and it is very effective for me"

Ditto your above for the last 23 years now. Never look back once you have been enlightened sir:)

Robin Brown

[Gecko10]

Originally posted by brownie
Gecko10:
Ditto your above for the last 23 years now. Never look back once you have been enlightened sir:)

Robin Brown

Believe me, I haven't. Matt was kind enough to introduced me to it several years ago and Gabe's CRG and the recent comments regarding Interactive Gunfighting (FOF) training in LV, which you have probably read, have done nothing but to reinforce my belief in its effectiveness, yea necessity.

[9millie]

Back in July Brownie, 7677, Matt Temkin, myself and a few others got together for an informal training session.
One gent had trained in CQB with the man who wrote that book on Delta Force and it was as simple and as effective as the book makes it out to be.
A good time was had by all and many of those present will be at the not so informal training session to be held in Memphis early next year.
I hope that Gecko10 will be in attendence.

[Gecko10]

Are you a member of Warrior Talk (www.warriortalk.com)? Seems like you would be a good addition to that group! I know Matt is and I think Brownie is also.

I'm sure someone like you who makes good solid, no BS, comments based upon experience would be welcome there.

BTW Matt, Andy Stanford, Tom Givens, Gabe Suarez, SouthNarc and others are holding a training symposium in Memphis on Jan 8-9. Here are the details if you're interested:

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=3239&highlight=symposium

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=4088&highlight=symposium

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=4264&highlight=symposium

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=4286&highlight=symposium

The cost to visit, learn and train with these guys for two days is, well to low to mention here and the symposium may just be for WT folks, but I'm not sure as I can't attend so I haven't been following it too closely.

[7677]

jethro21,
You need to do a search because it has been a interesting road we have been down with point shooting. Matt Temkin trained with Applegate and Brownie trained with Lucky Mc Daniels and are both great point shooters and can show you their technique in the pure form. My involvement with point shooting has been on and off the last 16 years. Three years ago, I did a study on why LEO's are killed in the line of duty and I was re acquainted with point shooting when I was put through simunition training. During simunitions training the answer to the problem became apparent that those to stop to aim in a dynamic close quarters combat are the one that gets hit. I was taught to point shoot very similar to way to the method in the book your book. With point shooting, I can hit out to around the10 yard mark while on the move and out to 15 yards when stationary. I'm sure I could hit a little further I just haven't tried it.