9mm Armscor - Open Gun?? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : 9mm Armscor - Open Gun??


New_comer
10-23-2004, 06:50
Need your inputs on something I'm cooking up as my next gun project ;)

I'd like to build a dirt cheap open class IPSC gun, possibly over a couple of years, using the 9mm Armscor hicap as base. Obviously, it would have to end up as a 38 super. Now my questions:
1. Would a conversion to 38 super be too complicated a task?
2. What would be my mandatory purchases? Like what is the base priced optic out there, compensator, mounts, etc...
3. Can the barrel just be reamed later to 38 super specs?

And for the fun of it, how would you proceed in buiding your own 'dirt cheap' open gun?

Thanks guys :cool:

ogiebb
10-23-2004, 08:18
even though lahat sila under sa .355 diameter family, ide set my mind on what caliber now before the build, also you have to consider on the source of ammo. 9 major is a totally different beast i have a long list of load data that i used to load up on my short stint in my 38 supercomp that i cant use on my 9mm major open gun..if you dont reload and value your brass a lot stick with the 38 super..optics ide go with a Cmore serendipity (kasi hinde na kailangan ng mount;f ) just ease up on the tightening of the screws baka mag crack,on the comp its much more of a personal feel i like short comps now. its not the size that matters pala;f ;f ;f ..about the reaming the barrel part medyo think twice about it. ive seen some 10mm reamed for .40 and the opposite way around pag medyo sloppy yung gunsmith mo.. accuracy will indeed suffer sometimes worst, in the end pick a good gunsmith ...good luck in your venture to the dark side;f ;f ;f

Eye Cutter
10-23-2004, 08:40
I'd like to build a dirt cheap open class IPSC gun,
how inexpensive is cheap?

1. Would a conversion to 38 super be too complicated a task?
nope. they share the same slide, mags, extractor, ejector. you need to tune it to 38 super specs

2. What would be my mandatory purchases? Like what is the base priced optic out there, compensator, mounts, etc...
US made comps start at $150-200. Locally made ones around 5-7.5k

TP aluminum 1-side mount 3.5k but it vibrates and develops cracks.
US made mount $70-90 (Allchin, STI, DP, Brazos)

OKO 16k, C-More Serendipity brand new 18-20k (mc_o is selling his gray serendipity for 1/2 the price!)

3. Can the barrel just be reamed later to 38 super specs?
you need to ream the barrel as the 9mm is a tapered round. best bet is to get a complete barrel and comp set. I got an sps barrel and comp set from pbd last year.

gunsmithing cost = ?

Eye Cutter
10-23-2004, 08:45
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/eyecutter/100_1411.jpg

Here're my accumulated parts for my open gun project. I'm having second thoughts about re-cutting and re-milling my STD Para Frame as the SPS barrel is a Nowlin cut. I'll probably get an armscor frame instead.

I plan to cut the serendipity mounts and convert it to a railway using the allchin mount but ogiebb and mc_o advised to use the serendipity instead and have spacers made as the mounts came from another pistol and they're wider on the Para frame.

ogiebb
10-23-2004, 08:55
Originally posted by Eye Cutter
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/eyecutter/100_1411.jpg

Here're my accumulated parts for my open gun project. I'm having second thoughts about re-cutting and re-milling my STD Para Frame as the SPS barrel is a Nowlin cut. I'll probably get an armscor frame instead.

I plan to cut the serendipity mounts and convert it to a railway using the allchin mount but ogiebb and mc_o advised to use the serendipity instead and have spacers made as the mounts came from another pistol and they're wider on the Para frame.


doc,

oo nga pala sayang yung para frame mo , na ka fit na din yan sa ibang caliber di ba?..

yung gray na c more ni MCo mukhang ok to start with mukhang ganda pa ng presyo...

Eye Cutter
10-23-2004, 09:02
ogie: Yep. Yan yung frame na binibenta ni cute noon sa pb bago ka umalis. Ako nakakuha. Limited blaster ko. Will most probably get another frame instead.

New_comer
10-23-2004, 09:24
how inexpensive is cheap? As in I wouldn't have to worry that my gun isn't made from the better parts available in the market, nor assembled by a named gunsmith. As long as it would work up to IPSC standards, I'm fine with that.

Pang Casio lang ba, hindi Tag, pero very functional for its intended purpose. ;)

mc_oliver
10-23-2004, 23:38
Gad! Kung mey pasensya lang sana ako, kaso wala kaya scrap muna open gun idea ko. ;f

My plan was this:

1. Armscor 9mm widebody.
2. Cut the slide 0.25" or so
3. Thread a comp in the orig bull barrel
4. Slap on a Cmore.
5. Syempre smith the gun for trigger work and reliability, etc.

Tapos! ;)

6. Run with the 9 using SP2 or N350 powder.
7. Kung mukhang tagilid and 9, ream the barrel for 38 super.

;)

Eye Cutter
10-24-2004, 00:09
meron akong extrang compensator. local copy ng Dawson TJ Comp. ibenta ko na lang sa inyo kung matuloy open gun project ninyo.

i-aalok ko na lang din muna kay batangueno yung allchin mount kung gusto niya.

New_comer
10-24-2004, 06:06
Originally posted by mc_oliver
Gad! Kung mey pasensya lang sana ako, kaso wala kaya scrap muna open gun idea ko. ;f

My plan was this:

1. Armscor 9mm widebody.
2. Cut the slide 0.25" or so
3. Thread a comp in the orig bull barrel
4. Slap on a Cmore.
5. Syempre smith the gun for trigger work and reliability, etc.

Tapos! ;)

6. Run with the 9 using SP2 or N350 powder.
7. Kung mukhang tagilid and 9, ream the barrel for 38 super.

;)

Yan ang tukoy ko! ;f Dagdagan na lang ng Pascual na magwell, talu-talo na! ;)


Bos Mc_o, magkano kaya iyan lahat? Aabot bang sesenta? Kung 50 or less, malamang 'go' na ako!:cool:

mc_oliver
10-24-2004, 07:50
If you can wait for the new frame armscor, tingnan mo muna. Tipid ka na dun sa pagpabilog nung grip area. However, I'm not sure how much will be the price once it's released. If you can find someone willing to part with their 9mm widebody okay din.

The red dot scope will set you off mga 15-20K siguro. The OKO is nice and relatively cheap at about 10K. Pero you'll need a mount for it. The old two-piece mount is about 4K yata, pero I'm not sure how long the mounting area will last.

Lalampas ka ng 50K but baka 'di abot ng 65K. Try checking your smith how much are the ff:

1. Slide cutting (saka na lang ang lightening cuts). But stick to the gov't length recoil spring. Which means, use a full length guide rod at reverse plug. Yung plug medyo lalabas sa harap ng slide.
2. Comp installation and fitting
3. Trigger job
4. Reliability work
5. Scope mounting

Bili ka ng mec-gar na 9/38S na mags plus basepads, rock n roll na.

Good luck.

;)

Fonzy
10-24-2004, 11:19
Originally posted by mc_oliver
Gad! Kung mey pasensya lang sana ako, kaso wala kaya scrap muna open gun idea ko. ;f

My plan was this:

1. Armscor 9mm widebody.
2. Cut the slide 0.25" or so
3. Thread a comp in the orig bull barrel
4. Slap on a Cmore.
5. Syempre smith the gun for trigger work and reliability, etc.

Tapos! ;)

6. Run with the 9 using SP2 or N350 powder.
7. Kung mukhang tagilid and 9, ream the barrel for 38 super.

;)

wow! how about for 40 cal route sir (if i had to ask, means i can't afford it ;f )?

cheers!

:cool:

New_comer
10-24-2004, 19:48
Nakita ko nga yung bagong grip ng armscor, bilugan na rin. Tapos maganda ang lock-up ng barrel-slide-link. Pero, baka pang display lang yun, balik original kung o-order ng bago. ;g

Pero teka nga pala, doesn't Armscor produce a 38super gun from the get-go? Can't I just order one from them pre-reamed from the factory. SAM claims so in their website, well at least in the products' specs they do... ^8

Also, about using a 9 in open, what would be the bullet specs in fps and PF. What size heads are ideal? I don't reload, so I'd depend on True weight to do it for me. TYVM

ogiebb
10-24-2004, 19:56
124g are good enough and easy to reach PF than 115g

mc_oliver
10-24-2004, 20:06
Originally posted by Fonzy
wow! how about for 40 cal route sir (if i had to ask, means i can't afford it ;f )?

cheers!

:cool:
Sa 40 cal palit barrel lang. I've seen a dual caliber run, armscor na naka 40 at mey spare 9 na barrel. Baka kelangan mo lang i-tweak yung extractor at 40 mags to be able to run 9. Proper fitting is the key here, so you'll need the services of a smith. ;)

Also, about using a 9 in open, what would be the bullet specs in fps and PF. What size heads are ideal? I don't reload, so I'd depend on True weight to do it for me. TYVM
For IPSC, the minimum bullet weight for open is 120gr. So you'll probably use 124gr as minimum since that's more common. Search ka sa BE forums for 9x19 major loads, dami dun. The useable ones are using VV N350 at SP2 powders. Experimento 'to but take note you'll only need 160PF so start lower, mga 20% less.

Armscor doesn't have 38 super in widebody format. Not sure kung meron sa singlestack.

New_comer
10-26-2004, 04:45
Originally posted by mc_oliver
For IPSC, the minimum bullet weight for open is 120gr. So you'll probably use 124gr as minimum since that's more common. Search ka sa BE forums for 9x19 major loads, dami dun. The useable ones are using VV N350 at SP2 powders. Experimento 'to but take note you'll only need 160PF so start lower, mga 20% less.
Yung experience ko sa 9mm reload e yung sa True Weight. Pag na-order ako, tinatanong ni Luz kung Standard o Major. Yung major nila using 131gr LRN's e nasa 137pf lang nung nag chrono sa Battle of the Gun Clubs last year. 4.2gr BA9 Vectan powder ang ginamit nila nuon, umabot lang ng 1045-1050fps. Para maka 160pf, dapat mga 1225fps. Tinanong ko kung pwede pang dagdagan, delikado na daw.

Yun nga lang ang problema, baka walang mag-reload para sa kin ;g

Di ko pa nasusubukan yung sa Stronghand kung tatanggap sila ng Major na 9mm. ^8

Isa pa nga pala: Are Armscor firearms rated for +P loadings? Baka naman mahina yung barrel, mabuntis kaagad or worse...;P

Eye Cutter
10-26-2004, 06:01
BA9 is a relatively fast burning powder similar to N320 and N340. Gamit for 9 major yata is SP2, Tru Blue, 3N37, 3N38. Yung N350 meron siguro sa stronghand

mc_oliver
10-26-2004, 06:59
The reason you want SP2 is because it's a dense powder. With the short 9mm case, marami ka'ng mailagay before the load gets compressed. Yang major na sinasabi sa atin for the 9, ibig sabihin lang nyan pasok sa 125PF.

Once you start with load development for the 9, baka kailangan mo'ng mag-sign ng waiver sa reloader. In case you blow yourself up, it'll be your fault alone.

If you're not up to it, might as well go to 38 super. Dami loads at marami'ng kabisado mag-load for you. ;)

ogiebb
10-26-2004, 08:58
ive been loading a copuple of thousand rounds of 9mm these past few days..its a pain to find the right load data for it...the buzz around here is that SP2 is the best for 9 major...swerte nyo naman dyan, mura at maraming pwede kuhanan ng SP2...

Eye Cutter
10-26-2004, 16:37
teka, sino ba may gawa ng SP2 powder? The only brands readily available here are Vithavuori, Vectan, ADI and OBP.

New_comer
10-26-2004, 17:22
Originally posted by Eye Cutter
teka, sino ba may gawa ng SP2 powder? The only brands readily available here are Vithavuori, Vectan, ADI and OBP. Vectan din e.

See here: http://www.shootshop.nu/sv/dept_6.html

Eye Cutter
10-26-2004, 18:07
meron kaya SP2 ang TW?

ogiebb: sa vihtavuori ba anong gamit ninyo for major 9?

ogiebb
10-26-2004, 23:36
n350 ang pinakamalapit..si Beven Grams of grams end gamit n340 tingnan mo yung thread na ginawa ko sa BE forums;) parang kakatakot lang sa 340 e

New_comer
10-27-2004, 06:20
Originally posted by mc_oliver
... Once you start with load development for the 9, baka kailangan mo'ng mag-sign ng waiver sa reloader. In case you blow yourself up, it'll be your fault alone.

If you're not up to it, might as well go to 38 super. Dami loads at marami'ng kabisado mag-load for you. ;)
WAIVER???!!!;P ;P ;P

Parang wala pa ngang nagawa nito sa 'pinas a... Pero binasa ko yung mga post sa BE forum, mukhang commonplace at standard loading na ang 160++PF 9mm's. Me umaabot pa nga ng 171PF using SP2 with no problems at all (kung paniniwalaan nga lang ;)). Dapat yata e mag-reload na din ako. :cool:

Which brings me to another set of questions, best answered siguro ng mga nag-rereload: how do you know that case pressures are still within tolerable (+P) limit? When do you stop putting in more powder? Is there anybody in the local circuit that has adopted the 9mm as their Open division cartridge? ^8

Thanks again for such interesting info you're sharing. ^c

ogiebb
10-27-2004, 07:07
sa primer pockets nalalaman ang case pressure at syempre yung mga gilid ng basyo..in some case ive heard na sa sobrang pressure daw pati primers tumatalsik at nag leak yung "blast" sa breechface causing "pitting"

mc_oliver
10-27-2004, 17:35
new_c, load development is a tricky thing kasi there's always the possibility of blowing your gun up and worse taking some of your body parts with it.

My suggestion is to start talking to TW or Stronghand. Try to get a feeling kung pwede nila gawin yung 9 loads mo. Another option to try is Judge. I'm sure if you bug him enough, he has a ready waiver for you to sign. ;f

But if all else fails, pahiram mo sa akin baril mo. Ako maglo-load development. Alam ko 'pano kikilitiin is Judge...hehehe ;f;f

Seriuosly, if I'm not mistaken, 9 major is an old thing. Reading some feedbacks sa BE forums, it seems they've been doing that as an alternative to 9x23 during the time when that cartridge was still popular. Since 9x23 brass is expensive, they use the 9 for practice and go back to the other during matches. ;) And during that time major PF was at 175 pa yata.;P

Eye Cutter
10-27-2004, 17:39
Mura kasi 9mm compared to 38 super sa america. Pero kung ang kapalit naman ay mga daliri natin, sa 38 super na lang ako. tried and tested load na.

ogiebb
10-27-2004, 17:56
if i was to shoot open sa Pinas ide shoot 38 super maraming source ng brass,reusable and there are already a ton of load data flowing around ..;)

New_comer
10-27-2004, 19:20
Originally posted by mc_oliver
new_c, load development is a tricky thing kasi there's always the possibility of blowing your gun up and worse taking some of your body parts with it.

My suggestion is to start talking to TW or Stronghand. Try to get a feeling kung pwede nila gawin yung 9 loads mo. Another option to try is Judge. I'm sure if you bug him enough, he has a ready waiver for you to sign. ;f

But if all else fails, pahiram mo sa akin baril mo. Ako maglo-load development. Alam ko 'pano kikilitiin is Judge... hehehe ;f;f


Ngiiii!!! Baka humabol pa ko sa Undas nyan! ;P

It's now very evident that commercial reloaders, even factory loaded cartridges, are severely underloaded, that is, not even near the design pressures our firearms are capable of withstanding, more particularly so for the 9mm. Seeing those claims of bullet velocities achieved with careful load dev't, practically equating those of 38super, makes me even more interested in pursuing my 9mm open gun project. But...

Are Armscors tough enough? I'd have no qualms shooting those 170+PF souped-up loads thru my HK USP. But Armscors? teka muna tayo dyan... ;A ^8

Anybody know about extensive product testing results of Armscor products? Me taga-Armscor ba tayo dito sa BOG's? ^8

mc_oliver
10-27-2004, 19:58
Originally posted by New_comer
Are Armscors tough enough? I'd have no qualms shooting those 170+PF souped-up loads thru my HK USP. But Armscors? teka muna tayo dyan... ;A ^8
Try it dre, tapos report back ka dito sa amin. ;f

Seriously, unless you're gunning for Eric Grauffel's Open title, then there's certainly no rule preventing you from running 9mm minor in Open. Remember, it's not so much the working of the comp that makes you shoot faster but the ability to see more because of the dot. ;)

New_comer
10-28-2004, 00:01
Originally posted by mc_oliver
Try it dre, tapos report back ka dito sa amin. ;f

Seriously, unless you're gunning for Eric Grauffel's Open title, then there's certainly no rule preventing you from running 9mm minor in Open. Remember, it's not so much the working of the comp that makes you shoot faster but the ability to see more because of the dot. ;) You're right! Puede naman palang minor. ;)

(Kaya lang baka sabihin ng mga kalaban, madaya ako, as in "Ano yan, airgun???!!!" ;f ;f ;f )

Sa tingin ko, step by step lang muna. Una muna: Baril.

So this coming gunshow, sana madulas bibig ng amo ko at magbigay ng extra-extrang bonus! :cool:

batangueno
10-28-2004, 00:32
Using 9mm in open will probably eat your brass. Baka hindi mo na ma-reload ulit. Mas magastos pa 'yan, mag 38super ka na lang...sama-sama tayo. ;f

mc_oliver
10-28-2004, 01:41
Something occured to me about the brass issue. I'm assuming Armscor has the same tolerance standard in their 9 chambers as with their 40's. So the 40 being very tight from the factory, I'd guess the 9 will be the same.

If that's the case, make sure you make it clear to your smith not to touch the 9 chamber. Baka konting polishing ng loob at edges pwede. This should help the life of your 9 brass. ;)

Leche! Nai excite ako sa project mo dre. Gawin mo na bukas!! ;f;f

New_comer
10-28-2004, 04:13
Originally posted by mc_oliver
... If that's the case, make sure you make it clear to your smith not to touch the 9 chamber. Baka konting polishing ng loob at edges pwede. This should help the life of your 9 brass. ;)

Leche! Nai excite ako sa project mo dre. Gawin mo na bukas!! ;f;f Bwahahaha! Pesyens, bos mc_o, pesyens... :cool:

Pati ko, nasasabik na rin tuloy, e! ;f

The way I see this thing developing is this: I provide the gun, you in tandem with judge develop the loads, ogiebb to provide expert opinion, & Doc EC to provide medical assistance...

Now then, who'll provide the fingers? ^8 ^3 ;f