Shoot 'em then treat 'em??? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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A GLOCKwork Orange
11-17-2004, 11:10
OK, here's the scenario. You are off duty and a BG is robbing you and your family at gunpoint. While the robber is reaching for your wife's purse, you draw your weapon and fire two shots into his chest, putting him to the ground. The BG is now incapacitated and as you check him to remove any other weapons he may have on him, you detect agonal respirations but no pulse.

Do you call 911 and work him or let him die there on the floor?

---Chris

Alpha752
11-17-2004, 11:47
Yes, I would work him.

N2DFire
11-17-2004, 12:44
Work'em.

If it's a legit shoot - then I see it as being no different than say a SWAT Medic capping a BG & then treating him.

mfackler
11-17-2004, 15:47
I have often asked myself this. I don't know if I would even aproach him. He may still be dangerous. I would reather spend my time making sure my loved ones are Ok. I guess after all thats done I may get a towel to stop up some blood.

skyydiver
11-17-2004, 16:11
Ripped from today's headlines:

See latest Marine tactic on this, try CBS news.

IT's A JOKE PEOPLE, and a darn good one I think.

obxprnstar
11-17-2004, 16:36
Here is the obligatory, is there a duty to act? And, how would it look if you didn't work him?
Those questions being posed, likley I would, and not due to the prior questions. I think most of us got into this line of buisness to help people and to do a little bit of good.
Although perhaps that would be throw out the window due to this gentelman attempting to rob me and making me fear for the lives of my family.

MDT
11-17-2004, 16:46
You're off duty. Do you carry anything that would be of use to "work" on this guy? Agonal resps, pulseless. Are you gonna crack his chest on the street? Intubate him? This guy is dead. He is "deader" than anything you can do there. I wouldn't risk exposure to his blood/saliva. Unless you're a tactical medic on a call, you should call 911. You'll need your energy for the obligatory ensuing police investigation.

MDT

Brian Dover
11-17-2004, 20:06
Far from being a clear cut answer to this hypothetical. Is the scene safe? (that one sound familiar to anybody?) Who's going to watch out for the possible associates of the C-T-D bad guy, and anyone else with an interest in your situation, while you're "running the code"?
Sorry, I only got questions here, no answers.

obxprnstar
11-17-2004, 20:49
MDT and Brian,

All valid questions. As for the scene saftey and PPE, I'm an assoc inst for a local EMT class and totally overlooked that.

Hopefully none of us will ever be placed in that situation.

DaleGribble
11-17-2004, 22:25
First words out of my mouth during practicals were BSI and scene safe!

If I have to shoot someone then obviously that scene wasn't safe and I'm getting my family out of dodge! They would be my first priority, not the dying criminal!

Glkster19
11-18-2004, 06:07
MDT hit it on the head. The guy is dead. Unless there's a trauma center within a couple blocks and an ambulance closer, he definitely isn't getting worked. He's pulseless immediately following 2 shots to the chest, he's not coming back.

Riverweasel
11-18-2004, 06:13
I'm not an EMT but would like to throw in a variable if I may.

Civil liability.

If you save him by chance, he's going to sue your life away.
On the other hand, his family will probably do the same if he dies.

LtTripMD
11-18-2004, 06:24
i understand everyone's point about scene safety, blah, blah, blah, but after all that the question still stands. assuming the scene is safe, your jump bag is close by, you have latex gloves, your buddy is watching your back for other bad guys, and you have the training to do something about it, then absolutely do your best.

it's -->*almost*<-- criminal not to in my opinion.

trip. <--- ER doc with a gun.

MDT
11-18-2004, 18:10
As an "ER doc w/ a gun" and volunteer tactical medicine support for a SWAT team, if I'm off duty, I can promise you I WON'T have any medical supplies w/ me. I can further assure you that I won't have the team to watch my back. Hell, I just stopped into the local "Stop-N-Shop" to get milk. If the dirt bag that I just dropped because he was trying to drop me first is showing agonal resps and PULSELESS, he's dead! He ain't gonna get better. He's pining for the fjords. Bloody pushing up daisies! Singing with the choir immaculate! Dead guys don't get better. I MIGHT crack this guys chest in the ED with a thoracic surgeon in house, but on the street, this guy is dead. I wouldn't try to change that.

MDT

Alpha752
11-18-2004, 22:13
Originally posted by MDT
As an "ER doc w/ a gun" and volunteer tactical medicine support for a SWAT team, if I'm off duty, I can promise you I WON'T have any medical supplies w/ me. I can further assure you that I won't have the team to watch my back. Hell, I just stopped into the local "Stop-N-Shop" to get milk. If the dirt bag that I just dropped because he was trying to drop me first is showing agonal resps and PULSELESS, he's dead! He ain't gonna get better. He's pining for the fjords. Bloody pushing up daisies! Singing with the choir immaculate! Dead guys don't get better. I MIGHT crack this guys chest in the ED with a thoracic surgeon in house, but on the street, this guy is dead. I wouldn't try to change that.

MDT

Doc, I understand your rational, and agree with you, dead guys stay that way. But what about the legal aspect of this? You will be investigated about this, and will probibly end up in court, even if it is a good shoot. Wouldnt it look good to do a few minutes CPR on the guy to show you were only defending yourself and did all you could to save him? The cops/judge/prosecutor will definitly say "Well your a doctor/paramedic/emt/guy who knows CPR, why didnt you try to help him?"

Again, I agree its probibly pointless, but im just looking at the other aspects. Thoughts?

MDT
11-18-2004, 22:45
I am confident that a pulseless dude with two bleeding holes won't get better regardless of what I do. CPR exposes me to his blood/body fluids and I don't want that risk. If I am put into this horrible situation, I can testify that my experience dictates that a pulseless (no signs of life) patient in the field isn't going to change. While I do understand why you suggested that you should try, I just don't think it is a good idea, medically or personally.
Anyone in that situation will respond in the manner they see appropriate. You gotta make your own call.

MDT

MDT
11-19-2004, 10:54
After re-reading my last reply, I thought I should clarify. And again, this is only my opinion.

1. If the scenario is you shot a guy who was trying to shoot you, and he was pulseless, my answer is the same. He's dead. His brainstem is only seconds away from figuring that out.

2. If it was a good guy, and he's pulseless with penetrating thoracic trauma IN THE FIELD WITH NO MEDICAL BACKUP, he's dead.

3. If this dude was breathing AND has a pulse, I would attempt to intervene...CAREFULLY. If I could safely apply pressure, torniquet, jaw thrust, etc. until EMS arrived, I would. The difference is signs of life in the field.

Any thoughts?

MDT

nsb22
11-19-2004, 11:12
Originally posted by Alpha752
Doc, I understand your rational, and agree with you, dead guys stay that way. But what about the legal aspect of this? You will be investigated about this, and will probibly end up in court, even if it is a good shoot. Wouldnt it look good to do a few minutes CPR on the guy to show you were only defending yourself and did all you could to save him? The cops/judge/prosecutor will definitly say "Well your a doctor/paramedic/emt/guy who knows CPR, why didnt you try to help him?"

Again, I agree its probibly pointless, but im just looking at the other aspects. Thoughts?

Here would be my response to the Judge:

Well your Honor, I was already tending to my family. To leave them to treat the suspect would be like me leaving the scene of a cardiac arrest to go help some one with a cut finger. I am not supposed to leave on pt. to go care for another! We were taught this in school.

Hopefully, that would work!

LtTripMD
11-19-2004, 13:28
Originally posted by MDT
After re-reading my last reply, I thought I should clarify. And again, this is only my opinion.

1. If the scenario is you shot a guy who was trying to shoot you, and he was pulseless, my answer is the same. He's dead. His brainstem is only seconds away from figuring that out.

2. If it was a good guy, and he's pulseless with penetrating thoracic trauma IN THE FIELD WITH NO MEDICAL BACKUP, he's dead.

3. If this dude was breathing AND has a pulse, I would attempt to intervene...CAREFULLY. If I could safely apply pressure, torniquet, jaw thrust, etc. until EMS arrived, I would. The difference is signs of life in the field.

Any thoughts?

MDT

i completely agree. perhaps i should change my previous post to say that the bad guy in this scenario should get *evalauted* if you have the medical training.

i said "do your best", and that requires going over to find out what kind of condition he's in as a first step. after that, dead is dead.

trip.

G21FAN
11-19-2004, 14:49
Not no, but H$LL NO! A attourny would make this out that you were guilty of making a mistake and tried to correct it. I've been in EMS 15 years and I will not stop to help off duty. Why? not my problem. Realisticaly, what are you going to do while waiting on a unit to roll up? Mouth-to mouth? I don't think so! I hate to say it, but Paramedics and EMTs rely on a myriad of equipment to do their job. Me and my family comes first! I learned the hard way. Twice.

Steamboat Bill
11-20-2004, 13:56
MDT is as correct as can be. The guy is dead. Working him will do no good. This isn't even getting into the fact that working him should be the last thing on your mind tactically (you just had an armed encounter -- you need to get your head out of EMS mode and think tactically).

skyydiver
11-20-2004, 14:54
Okay, I'm not an ER doc, and I'm always off duty, because I'm just a guy with a gun. Almost all of you who wanted to treat the bad guy for the sake of looking like a sweetheart to a jury seemed to totally forget thet in the scenario your family is present. Screw the BG that just tried to kill me and my fam. And this is a little over the top, but I'd bet that 50% of juries here wouln't blink if prosecutors told them I checked on my family then shot him one last time because I thought I heard his trigger finger move. The last part is frivolous, but think of your family before the BG.

MDT
11-20-2004, 16:37
^6 , YES!!

I can assure my demeanor and attitude changes dramatically if my family was present. NO ONE get my assistance until I assure my family's safety.


MDT

GeoEMTP
11-21-2004, 07:08
No signs of life = no need to work 'em.

Signs of life = still potentially dangerous.

I may be medically trained but I'm not trained to approach, disarm, or take a suspect into custody. I'm not going anywhere near this guy. I'm moving behind hard cover if not there already and holding him at gunpoint while repeatedly checking my six until the cavalry arrives.

My commitment to go home every night does not only apply to duty days.

Alpha752
11-21-2004, 11:25
skydiver, You are correct, I did forget that my family was suposed to be there. If my family is there, they are first priority and I would be getting the hell out of dodge (all though I would be calling 911 for police and ems).

I also think I drifted away from thinking I was the shooter. If I had to shoot someone, then I think that would be diffrent then if I came across some one shot, or witnessed someone being shot. I cant realisticaly see myself shooting someone and then running over to play paragod.

Good point on the lawyers G21. Didnt think of that aspect if it.

Good discussion everyone, very imformative to diffrent mindsets. I think I will learn lots here.

Thanks,
Russ

JGinzo
11-21-2004, 22:03
As a PAramedic in Florida here is my view of this scenario.
If I am off duty and not getting paid for my services than I am covered or protected from any liablity from not working him as I would still fall under the Good Samaritan Laws. But...if I had put the slugs in I would work him but only after I was fairly certain that the guy was no longer a threat and my family was safe. Yeah he might sue me an such but realistically how many guys have you worked with two slugs in his chest walk out of the e/r to talk about it? Anyways it would also show that my shooting him was not out of premeditation or malice and would also show that I was trying to help him regardless of his attempt to rob me.

In Florida however we aren't allowed to shoot someone simply because they are robbing you. Keep that in mind as well.

Stay safe!

DepChief
12-03-2004, 18:34
My question is, if this bastard has you and your wife and maybe your kids at gun point, why stop at 2 shots. If he isn't dead, he is still a threat to your family. I might slow down after the second or third clip. Plus, if he lives, he is just going to end up suing you anyway...and in todays world, might actually win! I think the question of whether or not to provide medical care shouldn't even be in the equation.

fireguy129
12-13-2004, 15:42
Originally posted by GeoEMTP
No signs of life = no need to work 'em.

Signs of life = still potentially dangerous.

I may be medically trained but I'm not trained to approach, disarm, or take a suspect into custody. I'm not going anywhere near this guy. I'm moving behind hard cover if not there already and holding him at gunpoint while repeatedly checking my six until the cavalry arrives.

My commitment to go home every night does not only apply to duty days.

I think this quote sums my feelings up quite well. My first obligation is my family. This guy already gave me reason to kill him, screw him royally.

skyydiver
12-13-2004, 20:14
Originally posted by JGinzo
In Florida however we aren't allowed to shoot someone simply because they are robbing you. Keep that in mind as well.

Stay safe!

Do you have to wait until they are shooting or slicing you?

*Paramedic*
12-15-2004, 17:49
Florida is pretty tricky on use of deadly force.

Also, Id second the previous poster who stated moving to "hard cover." I for one would not approach a criminal that I just deemed worthy of death.;P Never know if his partner might try and get revenge.

Skydiver I dont think the previous posters are looking to be viewed as "sweethearts". IMHO Those of us in EMS are just likely to render care and often go in harms way to do so.

My opinion is, NO, If you shoot, do not treat.