FIBUA/MOUT weapon?

[LEO2002]

Since we milked the best assault rifle thread up, let's start another opinion thread with little data/information value whatsoever. What would be your favorite weapon for FIBUA (Fighting In Built Up Areas) or MOUT (Military Operations Urban Terrain)? My vote goes to Valmet M95 (surprise, surprise! national pride you know http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif). Reasons:
1.The usual AK stuff: reliable, accurate enough. A good, quality AK.
2.Good caliber. 7.62x39 penetrates most urban barriers (walls, cars, doors) well and offers adequate accuracy at FIBUA ranges.
2.Accepts M203 grenade launcher, can also fire rifle grenades (correct term?).
3.If fitted with a scope, is good enough to even offer a little sniper/countersniper capability.

So, what's your favorite?

BTW is there really any difference between MOUT and FIBUA? Who the hell even invented two different terms for what seems to me the exactly same thing?

[KY-Midnight]

On this one I'd hafta go with the m4 (Preferably M4a1, its full auto, and I think 3 shot burst is useless) While I think the M16 type weapons are not great for mud and humping long distances on your belly, in an urban envirnment I think its higher accuracy, and ba-zillion addons, features and extra goodies gives it a slight edge.

[Pointman]

Ah, this is one of my specialties and something my unit has trained extensively in. I have to agree with KY with the M-4 being a great weapon for MOUT. Of course my opinion is biased since this is what we are generally limited to.

Anyways, I don't think full auto capability is a good idea since it wastes ammo and is hard to control and I don't like the idea of a lot of richochets inside thick stone structures..or the idea of too many rounds penetrating thin walls and killing friendlies outside.

Also, I'd like someone on each team to have a SAW and even be able to have a few 240 Gulfs available. AT-4's, M203's, and grenades are must haves also for blowing open corners of buildings/structures.

The expected casualty percentage of a trained unit going into a MOUT situation is from 70-80%. Also, it takes a lot of grunts to take a town. IE: Generally if you have a platoon size element in the town you will need at least a company to take them down which means a lot of firepower.

[TREADMARKS]

M2 .50 mounted on a M113A1 carrier, flanked by 2 HMMWVs, scout configuration, Kevlar hard tops with MK19 40mm grenade launchers.
But myself, I would be carrying my SAR-48 bush folder. The extra penetration from the 7.62mm w/possible AP ammo is a major plus in a MOUT situation. IMHO

Only hits count.
Aim for the nose, if ya miss, ya still win.

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M21: All of the bells, and most of the whistles.
SAR-48 Folder, Benelli Super 90, M4 ACOG, with a Detonics PDW.
Big Dawg #632
19D30B4
http://www.geocities.com/terrydeaton.geo/action.htm

[KY-Midnight]

Pointman
Maybe an m4 with the 4 position selector (safe, semi, burst and auto) to make us both happy? http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif

[spetsnaz777]

For FIBUA I'd want a FAMAS G2 bullpup and a Glock 17 handgun with +P+ 9mm JHP's. The FAMAS has a phenomenal rate of fire and is ideal for urban combat ( my own personal experience in Sarajevo in 1993 with the French Foreign Legion reaffirms this to me)

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[Pointman]

Spetnazz,
I've seen the FAMAS a few times when working with the French Air Force Commandos. It seemed like an interesting weapon and quite versatile although I believe it is somewhat heavier than an M-4 (correct me if I'm wrong). Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to fire one.

The British SA80 (is that it?) seemed like a good weapon. Some of the British Marines were showing us their equipment once but they said the thing was prone to malfunctions.

[LEO2002]

FAMAS? Now you got us interested Spetsnazz! Tell us about it. I've only seen it in some newspaper photos, but it looks interesting. Ok, so what caliber? ROF? Sights? Handling? Mag capacity? Effective range? Whatever you want to mention?

[D2V]

Like I said in the assault rifle thread, the 249, preferably with short barrel and forward handgrip.

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defensor fortis
10mm, Tiger of the gunworld (http://www.crosswinds.net/~astonmartin)

[Pointman]

LEO2002,
From what the French told me of the FAMAS here's what I know. I'm sure Spetnaz will correct me if I'm wrong.

It uses a 30 round mag similar (or the same) as the M-16 mag and fires 5.56mm rounds. It's a bullpup design and is able to fire grenades from the barrel I believe, not using a separate launcher. The French carried it on a HK type sling across their chests. I believe range is around 400-500 meters. Like I said I was unable to fire it but I bet it's quite controllable on FA since it felt heavier in my opinion. I couldn't really get detailed specs on the weapon due to the language barrier.

[Cyclic]

Since this is a hypo thread I'd like a HK G11 for my play toy. If you know what it is then you know why.

[LEO2002]

The FAMAS sounds interesting. I saw it once in a document about French Paratroopers. They didn't say much about it thou. But, damn, is it one ugly gun? http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

Then again, when it comes to war, style points aren't awarded. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

G11 seems nice, but again my knowledge is very limited. One thing I dislike about it thou: once you've shot your enemy, you naturally scavenge his corpse for ammo, supplies and other neat stuff. I wouldn't expect to find much of that caseless ammo on anyone. Can't think of any other negative thing about the G11. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

[T.Stahl]

MG3, G3-SG1, HK69 and PzF 3 for the fire support/fire cover team, G36/G36K and lotsa HE/Frag/WP grenades for the storm teams. Plus the company's heavy mortars and a few BLU-27s from the AF.

[Tamara]

A "Big Blue 82"...

Nothing cleans up pesky built-up areas full of bad guys like large fuel-air munitions. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/wink.gif http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/wink.gif

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Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
MOLON LABE!

[LEO2002]

Now that I'm recovered from the humiliation of thinking that the little joker who called himself DeutschGewehrMann might have actually been a BGS officer, business as usual. Lesson learned. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif Memo to self: implement real life policy to internet, guilty until proven innocent.

What the heck is a "big blue 82"?! And what the heck is a "fuel-air munition"? Ok, munition, I know that. But fuel-air? What the heck is that? Air-to-air, surface-to-air, air-to-ground and whatever, I'm ok with that. But I honestly don't know what a fuel-air munition is. Help!

Hmm, the last two replies remind me of an old army wisdom: Artillery causes casualties, infantry robs the dead. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif Or something like that. Finnish jokes don't really translate to English too well. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/blue.gif

[T.Stahl]

Tamara is referring to the Bomb Live Unit (BLU) 82, which is a FAE (Fuel-Air-Explosive) and weighs 15,000lbs (IIRC).
When dropped, FAEs disperse/spray fuel into the surrounding air and thereby create an explosive mixture.
They have a devastating effect on soft targets as well as bunkers. They also make nice mushrooms. I heard British soldiers thought that nuclear weapons were used when the USAF dropped some of these babies during the Gulf War.
IIRC they have also been used for psychological warfare. They dropped one of these FAEs near the front, in sight of the Iraqi soldiers, and then tons of leaflets saying "we got many more of these! http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/wink.gif"

[This message has been edited by T.Stahl (edited 01-31-2001).]

[Tamara]

The effect of fuel-air munitions is dramatic. Since the vapor saturates the area before exploding, the blast is not as "directional" as conventional explosives. One description of the intense blast overpressure effects I heard was "imagine being hit with a baseball bat at full extension over every square inch of your body, simultaneously". <shudder>

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Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
MOLON LABE!

[lendringser]

The G11 would make a fine close-quarters tool: high capacity, low recoil, compact form factor, and adequate penetration, coupled with a good low-magnification optical sight. If it's 300 yards or closer, it's as good as dead...the hit probability of the G11 in three-round burst mode is pretty high.

Since we're talking the Mogadishu-type scenario (third-world urban hellhole crawling with bad guys at engagement ranges of 0-300 meters), I'd bring a G11 to the party, or a HK21E for those spot-and-hose scenarios. The HK21 is pretty unique in that it's eerily accurate in single-shot mode (like a G3), and can be switched to full-auto for a quick hose-down when the target is ranged. Probably the most accurate SAW on the market, and it packs one hell of a punch with belt-fed 7.62x51.

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"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine
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10 Ring #2010, Club .40 *&*, Wheelhouse Member

[This message has been edited by lendringser (edited 01-31-2001).]

[RM]

The BLU-82 is not a FAE. It is a conventional HE bomb although it weighs 15,000lbs

The BLU-82 from http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/blu-82.htm

The BLU-82B/C-130 weapon system, nicknamed Commando Vault, is the high altitude delivery of a 15,000 pound general purpose bomb from a C-130. This system depends upon the accurate positioning of the aircraft by either a fixed ground radar or onboard navigation equipment. The ground radar controller or aircrew navigator as applicable, is responsible for positioning the aircraft prior to final countdown and release. Primary aircrew considerations include accurate ballistic and wind computations provided by the navigator, and precision instrument flying with strict adherence to controller instructions. The minimum altitude for release due to blast effects of the weapon is 6,000 feet AGL.
The BLU-82 is a 15,000 pound GP bomb originally designed to clear helicopter landing zones in Vietnam. The warhead contains 12,600 pounds of GSX slurry and is detonated just above ground level by a 38-inch fuze extender. The weapon produces an overpressure of 1,000 pounds per square inch. Eleven BLU-82s were dropped during Desert Storm, all from Special Operations C-130s. The initial drops were intended to test the ability of the bomb to clear mines; no reliable bomb damage assessment exist on mine clearing effectiveness. Later, bombs were dropped as much for their psychological effect as for their destructive power.

FAE: From http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm

Fuel-Air Explosives [FAE] disperse an aerosol cloud of fuel which is ignited by an embedded detonator to produce an explosion. The rapidly expanding wave front due to overpressure flattens all objects within close proximity of the epicenter of the aerosol fuel cloud, and produces debilitating damage well beyond the flattened area. The main destructive force of FAE is high overpressure, useful against soft targets such as minefields, armored vehicles, aircraft parked in the open, and bunkers.

Fuel/air explosive represent the military application of the vapor cloud explosions and dust explosions accidents that have long bedeviled a variety of industries. Accidental vapor cloud explosion hazards are of great concern to the refining and chemical processing industry, and a number of catastrophic explosion accidents have had significant consequences in terms of injury, property damage, business interruption, loss of goodwill, and environmental impact.

And every year, many serious explosions and fires occur in industrial plants as a result of dust. Many materials form dust clouds that can easily ignite and explode, injuring personnel and damaging plant. This is a well-known phenomenon in the coal mining, grain storage, and the woodworking and paper industries. Many miners have been killed and injured and massive production losses have resulted from coal dust explosions in underground coal mining operations. Of the 129 grain dust explosions that occurred nationwide between 1987 and 1997, about half involved corn. Eleven were caused by wheat dust and 10 by dust from soybeans. Billions of tiny, highly combustible particles of grain are generated by grain kernels rubbing together as they move along conveyer belts and shifted between bins. Inside the enclosed chambers, those particles rise in a cloud. When the dust gets in with the right mixture of oxygen and comes in contact with a spark or even an overheated bearing on a conveyer belt, it is extremely explosive.

Almost all organic material in the form of a dust cloud will ignite at temperatures below 500 oC - approximately the same temperature as a newly extinguished match. Cotton, plastics and foodstuffs such as sugar, flour and cocoa can also, under the right conditions, act as explosives. In order for a dust explosion to take place, the dust particles must be of a certain size and the amount of finely granulated material per unit of volume must lie within certain critical values. There is generally a direct correlation between particle size and explosive hazard. The smaller the particle, the more reactive the dust. As the materials become smaller, they disperse and remain suspended more easily, increasing the potential for ignition and propagation of the reaction. Industrial explosion prevention measures include, where possible, providing nitrogen gas purging to ensure that the oxygen concentration is kept below that required for combustion.

For vapor cloud explosion there is a minimum ratio of fuel vapor to air below which ignition will not occur. Alternately, there is also a maximum ratio of fuel vapor to air, at which ignition will not occur. These limits are termed the lower and upper explosive limits. For gasoline vapor, the explosive range is from 1.3 to 6.0% vapor to air, and for methane this range is 5 to 15%. Many parameters contribute to the potential damage from a vapor cloud explosion, including the mass and type of material released, the strength of ignition source, the nature of the release event (e.g., turbulent jet release), and turbulence induced in the cloud (e.g., from ambient obstructions).

TNT generates well over 4,000 psi overpressure in close proximity to the source of the explosion, along with significant radiant heat effects from the explosion's fireball. Conventional high explosive munitions also produce fragments from the munition case, as well as fragments from material in the target area that is broken loose by the high blast overpressures. There are dramatic differences between explosions involving vapor clouds and high explosives at close distances. For the same amount of energy, the high explosive blast overpressure is much higher and the blast impulse is much lower than that from a vapor cloud explosion. The shock wave from a TNT explosion is of relatively short duration, while the blast wave produced by an explosion of hydrocarbon material displays a relatively long duration. The duration of the positive phase of a shock wave is an important parameter in the response of structures to a blast.

Although the detonation combustion mode produces the most severe damage, fast deflagrations of the cloud can result from flame acceleration under confined and congested conditions. Flame propagation speed has a significant influence on the blast parameters both inside and outside the source volume.
The blast effects from vapor cloud explosions are determined not only by the amount of fuel, but more importantly by the combustion mode of the cloud. Significant overpressures can be generated by both detonations and deflagrations. Most vapor cloud explosions are deflagrations, not detonations. Flame speed of a deflagration is subsonic, with flame speed increasing in restricted areas and decreasing in open areas. Significantly, a detonation is supersonic, and will proceed through almost all of the available flammable vapor at the detonation reaction rate. This creates far more severe peak over-pressures and much higher amounts of blast energy. The speed of the flame front movement is directly proportional to the amount of blast over-pressure. A wide spectrum of flame speeds may result from flame acceleration under various conditions. High flame front speeds and resulting high blast over pressures are seen in accidental vapor cloud explosions where there is a significant amount of confinement and congestion that limits flame front expansion and increases flame turbulence. These conditions are evidently more difficult to achieve in the unconfined environment in which military fuel-air explosives are intended to operate.

Based on the known properties of flammable substances and explosives, it is possible to use conservative assumptions and calculate the maximum distance at which an overpressure or heat effect of concern can be detected. Distances for potential impacts could be derived using the following calculation method [described in Flammable Gases and Liquids and Their Hazards]:

D = C x (nE)1/3

where D is the distance in meters to a 1 psi overpressure; C is a constant for damages associated with 1 psi overpressures or 0.15, n is a yield factor of the vapor cloud explosion derived from the mechanical yield of the combustion and is assumed to be 10 percent (or 0.1) and E is the energy content of the explosive part of the cloud in Joules. E can be calculated from the mass of substance in kilograms times the heat of combustion (hc) in Joules per kilogram as follows:

E = mass x hc

Combining these two equations gives:

D = 0.15 x (0.1 x mass x hc)1/3

Vapor cloud explosion modeling historically has been subject to large uncertainties resulting from inadequate understanding of deflagrative effects. According to current single-degree of freedom models, blast damage/injury can be represented by Pressure-Impulse (P-I) diagrams, which include the effects of overpressure, dynamic pressure, impulse, and pulse duration. The peak overpressure and duration are used to calculate the impulse from shock waves. Even some advanced explosion models ignore the effects of blast wave reflection off structures, which can produce misleading results over- or under-estimating the vulnerability of a structure. Sophisticated software used to produce three-dimensional models of the effects of vapor cloud explosions allows the evaluation of damage experienced by each structure within a facility as a result of a primary explosion and any accompanying secondary explosions produced by vapor clouds.

[KY-Midnight]

All I can say is...
Ok...

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For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future! - Adolf Hitler 1935

[Tamara]

RM:

I believe that the following data from your link for the BLU-82 in the specs list under "explosive" would indicate a fuel-air munition:
Aluminum Powder (12,600 lbs.)

All reference works I have on this device list it under FAM's. (They usually use a powdered metallic substance as the fuel.)

PS: Found it! "12,600 pounds of DBA-22M, an aqueous mixture of ammonium nitrate, aluminum powder, and polystyrene soap as a binder."
Also known as the Daisy Cutter for the way that obstacles are sheared off at ground level. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/wink.gif
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Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
MOLON LABE!

[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited 02-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited 02-01-2001).]

[RM]

Tamara:
The military classifies the explosives as GSX slurry. It is not decompressed, sprayed, expelled or ejected over the target area like the explosives mists used to make FAEs. It just explodes hence it being a conventional explosive. The only FAEs in the US inventory are the BLU-73, 95, 96 and CBU 55 and 72.

[TREADMARKS]

uuuuuugh...

Light fuse....

Get away...

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M21 with tons o goodies.
SAR-48 para, M4 ACOG, Benelli M1, Detonics PDW.
19D30B4
Big Dawg #632
My Home Page (http://geocities.com/terrydeaton.geo/action.htm)

[LEO2002]

What is it with you germans? I just checked out the HK21 on hkpro.com and just about turned green with envy. I remember lugging around a Finnish M62 LMG back in '98. I loved it then, but now that I saw that thing... come on! HK vs Valmet: 7.62x51 vs 7.62x39. Diopter sights (correct?) vs open sights. Roller lock bolt vs mass delayed blowback. Oh geez I could go on, but what's the point? Ok, the Valmet is nothing to sneer at, but the HK21 looks SWEET! Ok, the infantry has just got some M95 Valmet assault rifles and are getting the new sniper rifles (Sako TRG-42 in .338 Lapua Mag) so maybe they will soon develop a new machine gun too. If they do it before summer it'd be just in time for my first reserve excersive. Maybe not. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/blue.gif

Three weapons I really love for urban combat. LE type houseclearing: short shotguns. If only I could get my hands on a HK CAWS. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/devil.gif Military defensive urban combat: Machineguns (light, general purpose or heavy, no matter.) Military offensive urban combat: short carbines (M4s, folding stock Valmets).

Hmmm, I was just reading the "You could be gun nut if" thread and maybe we could add a new entry there: anyone mentions any type of gun (especially full auto) and you say "I love it!" http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif Excluding Lorcins and Ravens and whatnot ofcourse.

[LEO2002]

Oh, by the way, Tamara: when you first mentioned fuel-air munitions, I first thought of Napalm, but dismissed the idea as ridiculous. Now that I know what a fuel-air munition is I'm scared of what you'll think of next. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif It's probably going to be scarier than Gecko_45 armed with .700CBMBS. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/supergrin.gif

[MrMurphy]

Offensive FIBUA/MOUT- M4, Compact ACOG, M203, the other usual bells and whistles.

Alternatively I would be happy with:

Galil SAR (played with one on the Lebanese border, I'll take one anytime) as issued.

Steyr AUG with 16" barrel.

G36 or 36K with the dot-and-3.5X scope combo-carrrying handle setup and the HK grenade launcher (can't remember the model #)

All of these backed up by someone with a M249 and/or M240G/HK 21E.

MOUT as a non-grunt (tracktoad)...:
M1A2 with a lot of canister and MG ammo.


Ultimate offensive MOUT weapon....

Neutron bomb. Drop one and pow no more bad guys.. wait a couple months for the radiation to go away and it's all over.

[CastleBravo]

Nothing is more powerful than .700 CrazyBastardMagnumButtStomper (CBMBS)! With a OSS percentage well over 100% and, with Cor-Bon ammo, the ability to destroy an entire building full of gelatin blocks, it is the end-all and be-all of stopping power. Even the effette .600 MegaDeath is more effective than some silly BLU-82.

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CastleBravo
10 Ring # 5150
"For every human problem, there is a neat, simple solution; and it is always wrong." -- H.L. Mencken
The Pit: http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/index.html

[MakeMineA10mm]

I missed this thread the first time around, but am throwing in my $.02 worth now... :)

I'd take an M-4 Carbine in 300 Whisper with suppressor and M-203, plus AN/PVS-14s and NVG-compatible Aimpoint.

"Always go in at night..." :)

[spetsnaz777]

kwak kwak kwak the duck says carry a Glock 34 with Hirtenbirger L7A1 and an AUG with Canadian SS109.:rolleyes:

[spetsnaz777]

I'd carry a AUG and Glock 34.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Tamara
A "Big Blue 82"...

Nothing cleans up pesky built-up areas full of bad guys like large fuel-air munitions. http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/wink.gif http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/wink.gif

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Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
MOLON LABE!

At last, my kind of woman..one who understands the fun of fuel-air-explosives. Thank you m'lady;f

[carebear]

LEO2002,

How do you pronounce "Hakke Palle"? "Cut them down" is a great warcry.;f

[LEO2002]

Carebear,

Actually, it's "hakkaa päälle!" :)

I tried to find you a .wav file, but had no luck. :(

Don't you have any transplanted finns in Alaska who could teach ya? ;f

[carebear]

Oh sure, Make ME do my own research!!! :rolleyes: ;f

Thanks for the correct spelling at least. I'll look for a Finn. Am reading "The Winter War" right now. Talk about spirit.

"Russia won the Great Patriotic War; but spunky little Finland came in a close second."

And....

"So many of them, so few of us, how will we bury them all?"

[LEO2002]

Carebear -

I don't want to bore the others with details, but if you want fun anecdotes, stories and tidbits about the Winter War and Continuation War, drop me an email. My grandpa is Continuation War veteran, so guess what I grew up listening to. :)

[MakeMineA10mm]

LEO2002:

NO, NO, NO!!!!!!! You will decidedly NOT bore me with Winter War and Continuation War stories!!!!!

The Finns have nothing but my admiration after reading stories about those conflicts. Until the Gulf War, I bet that the Winter War was the most lop-sided conflict of modern warfare.

I remember reading the anecdote about the German and Swiss generals discussing what would happen if the Wehrmacht invaded Switzerland. The German general saying, "in one German Army Group we have three times as many men as your entire male population. What would you do if we invaded?" The Swiss general replied: "Each of us would shoot three times...";f

Apparently, no one told the Soviets that the Finns were to them, what the Swiss were to the Germans! ;f;f;f

I've only been able to read bits and pieces about the Winter War. Where can I find something on the web (in english, please!;f) about it?

[carebear]

They're called "books" makemine. The web is but a hollow reed of info in comparison.

[MrMurphy]

There was a guy who was in the U.S Army SOG (in Vietnam) who'd started out in Finland (being Finnish) and he conducted a Finnish vs Russian ambush that resulted (due to mines, MGs and a good plan) in 300 Russian casualties, and not one Finnish casualty. He later went on to fight the Russians (again) in WW2, and the Germans too I think, then went into the U.S Army and got his citizenship, fought in Korea and Vietnam in MACVSOG (then became MIA) unfortunately.

Talk about a one sided ambush!

I'd love to hear some stories too. Pass 'em on!

[LEO2002]

Sorry for the late reply, guys. I've been on duty and I don't check here from dept computer. Must be paranoia or something. :)

MakeMineA10mm:
http://www.mil.fi/tiedotus/talvisota_eng/index.html (official Defence Forces' site)
http://www.winterwar.com/ (somewhat unfinished, but good for the most part)

MrMurphy (BTW, I meant to send you an email, but I didn't have time to before I had to go back on duty): one of our greatest heroes from WWII, by the name of Lauri Törni, escaped the post-war communist rule in Finland to USA and became a Green Beret (I guess that would be MACVSOG?) Colonel IIRC, changed his name to Larry Thorne. He is MIA in 'Nam IIRC. Supposedly was killed in a helo crash?

Ok, a quick shortie about the russians in winter war. The russians were absolutely insane. First of all, Stalin had the idea of taking people from far away in Russia and sending them to the other side of Russia to fight so they would be less likely to desert or something. For example, a good number of russian soldiers on the finnish front were from southern russia. They weren't very used to cold. To top it off, the winter of '39 was hellishly cold. Anyway, the russian troops weren't supplied with winter gear (tents, firestarting tools and such) and a lot of them died from cold while others were easy pickings for the finns who were used to the cold and of course to the local terrain. Qualified (if they had any to begin with) officers were often executed by political officers for failing to fulfill orders (which were often crazy and impossible).

One example of russian foolishness is from the Road of Raate. The finns had fortified the road on the finnish side of the border and had the russian convoys pinned down on the narrow road. The russians were suffering from heavy casualties and losing a lot of equipment. So the russian army group command sent in an elite ski brigade, 5 000 men with winter gear and good equipment (snow camo suits, skis, Tokarev semiautorifles and so on)to relieve the troops. Well, the brigade was ambushed and destroyed to the last man. Finns were searching the dead and captives when they discovered that the Tokarev rifles that were issued to the majority of the brigade were still in original factory grease and frozen to the point where they would not function. Some elite brigade, can't even keep their weapons functional!

There... see what you've started Carebear!! Now let's hear some stories from the western front/Vietnam/Korea or elsewhere, okay? I love military stuff, and since we haven't seen real action since WWII, I'd love some stories from the newer conflicts.

[MrMurphy]

Yeah, Larry Thorne was that guy's name I read about. He's mentioned in John Plaster's book on the SOG troops in Vietnam (excellent book).