Isn't my perceived need to use deadly force different? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mxb
05-24-2001, 04:56
I have a question...Whenever I think about a situation where I might actually unholster and point a gun at someone..I think about the rule here in VA which says basically you can't use "deadly force" unless your life or the life of your loved ones is in jeopardy.
If some man is coming after me (obviously coming after me), but he has nothing in his hands, am I justified to produce a weapon (with full intent of firing if he doesn't start retreating fast)? Seems to me a man would be less justified in the same situation because he could perhaps run fast enough, hit hard enough, etc. Please tell me this is not faulty logic...What do you thing the law would say if, heaven forbid, a BG ends up dead and he has no weapon on him??

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Mommy With A Gun
G26
Niner's Club #2161

podwich
05-24-2001, 05:59
I just took an NRA Personal Protection course. We had a county prosecutor come in to teach the legal portion (note I am in MI). He said that lethal force can be used to stop an attack that can reasonably believed to give you fear for your life or serious injury. In other words, if a big guy gets really mad and says he's going to rip your bleeping head off and you really think he's going to, lethal force is allowable (remember shoot to stop-i.e. shoot until no longer a threat). You will want to check with some legal authority in your state. I don't know if laws are similar in VA.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-24-2001, 08:10
Remember that laws are open to interpretation.

12 jurors will more likely see it justifiable that a woman shot an unarmed man, than if a man shot an unarmed man.

My moral position is that it shouldn't matter if you are a man or woman--you both have the right to protect yourself.

The best thing I try to remember is that I will only use a gun against another person in order to save a life (either my life or someone else's life). Any other use is wrong. The question you will have to ask in the heat of the moment, then, is whether you seriously believe you (or someone you are protecting) are going to be killed. If the answer is yes, then fire away and let the courts straighten it out later. Afterall, if you didn't fire away, you or someone you care about would be dead.

A gun used against another person for any other reason is not allowed (not in my mind, and not by most laws). Can't use a gun just to settle an arguement, save face, protect property, force someone to do what you want, etc.

AAshooter
05-24-2001, 08:56
The concept you describe is Disparity of Force and is generally understood in the legal system.

Generally women (especially small women) have an advantage here since their male attackers are often larger. It applies to situations involving multiple bad guys. It also applies if you know some one to be specially trained

For example you know the bad guy is trained in martial arts or demonstrates behavior that he is. This presents a bigger threat.

So you may present your firearm to an "unarmed" assailant(s) if a Disparity of Force situation exists. This assumes you have reasonable fear of immediate (and unavoidable) danger of death or serious bodily injury to the innocent (you didn't provoke the attack). Anything short of that is in the gray zone. Use of verbal commands here really helps distinguish the level of threat if you have time to use them.

This concept of Disparity of Force applies to the injured or impaired. For example a large man with limited mobility may be able to argue disparity of force with a smaller assailant.

As already mentioned, this is a judgement call and disparity of force will be judged by others. If you can't demonstrate disparity of force, you will have escalated the use of force. Once again, a great time to use verbal commands to determine intent.

Finally, make sure you know your state laws. For example, some states require you attempt to retreat. Others, allow you to shoot someone in your home when they are unarmed.


I should note I am not a laywer and this is not legal advice . . . just an opinion.


[This message has been edited by aashooter (edited 05-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by aashooter (edited 05-24-2001).]

Brainglock
05-24-2001, 09:45
Here's a recent story on home defense and it's not VA but it's local. http://www.newschannel8.net/showstory.cfm?f=n&s=8709&z=3


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Dodge this.........

3MartiniLunch
05-24-2001, 10:27
I suggest getting the Virginia Gun Owner's Guide. It's sold in many gunshops, and the clerk of court in my county (Montgomery) suggested it when I picked up my Concealed Handgun Permit.
Virginia recognizes no 'duty to retreat'
Virginia has no lethal force statute...it's all based on case law.

mxb
05-24-2001, 10:41
aashooter,
Thanks, I didn't know 'disparity of force' was a named and considered situation. Since my class for CHP, and most things addressing CCW are assuming men will be doing the carry-ing, the issue never came up. I always think of questions after the fact and there are certainly people I could ask, but this forum is so great with so many kind, helpful members...it's faster too.

Ciao for now.

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Mommy With A Gun
G26
Niner's Club #2161

AAshooter
05-24-2001, 10:44
No problem . . . glad to help.

05-24-2001, 14:29
aashooter,disp. of force is b.s.I am 6'1'' 210# and can hit relativly hard compared to most people.I did boxing for several years and full contact martial arts.Bruce Lee was very short and light weight but would probably whip my ass in short order.Ed Parker of Kenpo Karate was small too but would drop a professional fighter in a hearbeat.My point being size makes no difference and if you feel like your life is in danger shoot.To be in court for your actions means you have survived the encounter.

tom3045
05-24-2001, 14:32
Repeat after me, I feared that my life was in danger, I feared that my life was in danger, I feared that my life was in danger. No other statements,until my attorney is present.

Duh, fear of one's live or someone elses, is the reason to use deadly force in self defence, I am begining to wonder about me,some times I am not sure where my head is...................Tom

[This message has been edited by tom3045 (edited 05-26-2001).]

Redondo
05-24-2001, 15:21
Ditto, Ithaca. I can't believe I agreed with you about something. And on the women's site to boot! http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif SideArmor I promise I won't make this a habit here.

mxb
05-24-2001, 16:34
tom3045
I hear what you're saying and I'm committing it to muscle memory.

bottleneck
I didn't read aashooter's post as meaning size was everything (oops..didn't mean to put it quite that way) we all know it ain't. I took the post as confirmation that my PERCEPTION would be considered in the (dreadful and drastic) case of dead BG.



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Mommy With A Gun
G26
Niner's Club #2161

ferretray
05-24-2001, 16:38
Bottlneck, it is the perceived disparity of force that is at issue. One does not always have the luxury of knowing an assailants pedigree. The courts usually recognize what a reasonable person would percieve. Also, watch your language. Semper Fi, Ray Rinehart

Oracle In Training
05-24-2001, 17:31
As I was told by a DA (not assistant DA, the big guy http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif) for a large metropolitan area. A citizen is justifibly allowed to defend themselves using what they have available to them, including a gun. Defend your life first if you think it is in jeapordy, then worry about the legalities. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Brainglock
05-24-2001, 19:28
True that Tom thats what I would say. Bottleneck is right size does not matter women know the art form and can bring down the bigget men.

defend your life don't let them take it.

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Dodge this.........

ithaca_deerslayer
05-25-2001, 02:22
Originally posted by Redondo:
Ditto, Ithaca. I can't believe I agreed with you about something. And on the women's site to boot!

Can't imagine why you wouldn't agree with me.

With regard to a deadly force question, seems there is often a divide where some gunslingers think it is ok to defend their property and other gunslingers think it is only ok to defend lives.

If you are defending lives, then you will probably be ok with the law and with yourself.

If you are only defending property, then there is a sticky wicket.

05-25-2001, 03:15
mxb, aashooter, bottleneck,

Disparity of force is not B.S. It is a long recognized part of legal statute and law enforcement use of force policies and training.

As a former homicide detective and law enforcement trainer in use of force, I can tell you that aashooter is right on the money. A detective, district attorney and jury take disparity of force INTO CONSIDERATION. Note the emphasis! It's not a "shoot someone free" card that you can play, but one factor in the equation.

As a 6'3'', 285 lb. ex-collegiate wrestler and defensive tactics instructor, I am going to have to be faced by King Kong on crystal meth in order to justify shooting an unarmed man. A small framed woman, on the other hand, can reasonably expect to have a lot more latitude in an attack by an unarmed man.

tom3045 is right on the attorney angle. Even as a detective, I told friends who carried to get the name of an attorney and keep the attorneys card in their wallet. If involved in a shooting, tell the police " I thought he was going to kill me' and nothing else. Tell them your friend the attorney told you never to talk to the police, if you "were forced to shoot someone" ( and that is how I would phrase it every time ), until he was present to assist you. Emphasize that YOU really want to talk to them, but can't until your friend the attorney arrives.

Nowadays, if you are forced to shoot someone, it's not IF you will be arrested/sued, it's WHEN you are arrested/sued. Anyone who carries a pistol and has not already talked to an attorney and done some "what if" legal planning, is making a big mistake.

Carrying a handgun is a big responsibility. Just as you owe it to yourself and others to prepare for a shooting by practice and mental conditioning, you owe it to yourself and your family to prepare for the legal aftermath by asking questions and having a plan in place.

mxb, I salute you for asking those questions and making a plan. It's too bad others don't.

I am not an attorney and I am not saying this is legal advice. This is just my opinion from my experience and training.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-25-2001, 04:03
Originally posted by Mongo1021:
Even as a detective, I told friends who carried to get the name of an attorney and keep the attorneys card in their wallet. If involved in a shooting, tell the police " I thought he was going to kill me' and nothing else. Tell them your friend the attorney told you never to talk to the police, if you "were forced to shoot someone" ( and that is how I would phrase it every time ), until he was present to assist you. Emphasize that YOU really want to talk to them, but can't until your friend the attorney arrives.

Nowadays, if you are forced to shoot someone, it's not IF you will be arrested/sued, it's WHEN you are arrested/sued. Anyone who carries a pistol and has not already talked to an attorney and done some "what if" legal planning, is making a big mistake.


Interesting. Don't think I've ever seen this advice on GT before. Specifically the part of having a lawyer's card with you and a plan to call that lawyer in the event of a forced shooting, and a plan to tell the police that you'd like to talk to them but your lawyer insists you consult him first.

Most people have made plans up until the point when the last shot is fired. Then what?

Brainglock
05-25-2001, 07:10
So your telling me that at 3:00am in the morning I have to check to see if he has a weapon so I don't have some Det. think that I didn't fear for my life. I'm not bashing the police my father is a U.S. Marshall but if a burglar confronts a cop and does not obey or tries to fight with the cop will he fight it out if he is bigger.

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Dodge this.........

[This message has been edited by Brainglock (edited 05-27-2001).]

Patricia
05-25-2001, 07:11
Perhaps logically gender shouldn't come into consideration when considering whether an individual was justified in using lethal force. However, as a woman, I can tell you that I would be more threatended by a male larger than me then another male would be. If I ever had to get a lawyer, you can be sure he would play that up. Women are more frequently targeted as victims than men. That is a fact.

SparrowHawk
05-25-2001, 14:18
Your Honor, I was in fear for my life. I told the man to stop he didn't. I told him I was armed and he kept coming towards me in a threatening manner. I drew my weapon, he did not stop I as I asked, ______________
To answer your question, I would have to say yes.

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Intelligence is a gift, but the package must be opened!

Niner's Club Member #62

mxb
05-26-2001, 15:06
I felt my life was being threatened...I felt my life was being threatened...I was afraid for my life....My life was in danger....

But seriously, this has been a great helpful discussion here to get past this snag in my mental preparation. Thanks everybody.

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Mommy With A Gun
G26
Niner's Club #2161

AAshooter
05-26-2001, 16:35
MXB, the fear for your life argument is important. However, in a court room it has to be uanavoidable and reasonable. Assuming you can't avoid it, generally they are going to evaluate the assailant with regard to: Ability, Opportunity and Intent.

The fact is that anybody (almost) has the ability. If disparity of force is in your favor (you are the more powerful), they may not have the ability. For example, a 2 year attacks you. In most cases the bad guy has the ability.

The opportunity depends on many things. One issue with opportunity is whether they can immediately inflict injury. So if an unarmed suspect of any size is 100 yards away, you probably don't have the solid case for deadly force (assuming you know nothing else about the suspect). The same is probably true if they are closer but a barrier is between you (for example, on the other side of a looked door). If he has an AR-15, that's a different story.

Intent is the hardest one. This is tricky with an unarmed bad guy. Using verbal commands can be helpful to try to determine intent.

Usually if these three things are present and you fear for your life, you are in pretty good shape to use force.

As an aside, most males in resonable condition can cover about 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds. This is the time is takes many practiced person to present a weapon and deliver 2 good shots to the center of mass (some are faster). If you are slower and/or the bad guy is hyped up or in great shape, the safe distance could be even further.

Many people under estimate "safe distance" from a bad guy. As such, assuming the bad guy has the intent and say a knife, you are probably behind the power curve if he is closer than 21 feet. He could probably stab you before you could stop him.

[This message has been edited by aashooter (edited 05-26-2001).]

AAshooter
05-26-2001, 18:31
Bottleneck, sorry if I was not clear. You are absolutely right size may not matter and judging a "bad guy" by "his cover" may not be wise. The "little bad guy" may still need to be stopped. It just is more difficult to argue there was a disparity unless you have additional information.

The perception is the key and whether it is deemed to be reasonable. I think Mongo1021 clarified the concept better than I. The key is that it is an acknowledged concept in the law and certainly will influence the jury.

Mongo1021--thanks for the clarification and your additional comments. They often talk about LEOs ability to influence a situation simply by their presence. In you case, it sounds like you might have been even more influencial when you showed up.

Further to your suggestion about having a lawyer identified and carrying the business card, consider having them on retainer.

[This message has been edited by aashooter (edited 05-26-2001).]

Brainglock
05-26-2001, 19:46
I maybe wrong but I don't think that MXB was saying could she shoot the guy/girl if they were running out the house with the Christmas turkey and back turned. If someone breaks in your house and doesn't leave after a warning you have every right to protect you and your loved ones.
2nd Amendment:
Article II.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/images/wavflag.gif
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Dodge this.........

dgg9
05-27-2001, 02:41
References to the Second Amendment are fine for this forum, but will not get you far in criminal court. Knowledge of your state laws is a little more fundamental.

Have a chat with an attorney. It would be a good use of your time. IMO, if you carry a gun, you should also carry the phone number of a good attorney.

turet
05-27-2001, 03:03
I took a couple of courses from Mike Dalton, a well-known competition shooter. He is also a cop in the Los Angeles area. He and Mickey Fowler wrote a book called "Handguns and Self Defense," which covers the basics of good shooting and also a very good section on how to handle an attacker in your home. There is also an extensive section on the legal aspects. Mike has taught numerous attorneys and judges in his classes and he said many of them have said that the legal section in his book is the best document they have ever seen on the subject. And it is a very complex legal subject. While Mike lives in California, and some of what he says is geared toward this state -- which is surprisingly pro-victim in issues of when/how you can stand your ground against a would-be attacker and when you can use deadly force -- he indicates in his book when he is discussing CA law and when he is speaking more broadly. If you really want to get into all this, I'd get a copy of his book and have an attorney read the legal section and get their comments on it. It's available at: http://www.isishootists.com/training_lifewithoutfear.htm

It's well worth the $13.00.

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The Mindtrekker
Big Dawg #44, G17!

AAshooter
05-27-2001, 04:13
Turet, thanks for the suggestion. It sounds like a good read. Living in Kalifornia, I will appreciate his state specific discussion.

DreamWeaver
05-27-2001, 14:14
Originally posted by Brainglock:
If someone breaks in your house and doesn't leave after a warning you have every right to protect you and your loved ones.


Interesting that you should say this, Brainglock! http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif I just finished attending the Citizen Academy, put on by the Chesterfield County Police, where this was discussed in great detail!

It seems that in Chesterfield 'specifically' (I can't say about Virginia, as I'm an import from Ontario, Canada, and am trying to get up-to-speed down here http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/wink.gif the 'only' way you can shoot someone in your home is that you have ABSOLUTELY no other choice! You can't shoot them on the front porch and 'drag them inside', as I have had people tell me! <G> You have to have NO OTHER option - you can't run out the back door ... you can't jump out a window ... you can't lock yourself in a bathroom ... you are completely and totally 'cornered' and the ONLY option you have is to shoot them!

I found this extremely interesting ... and somewhat frightening!

OH and Mommy with a gun?? I was just at Cavalier today shooting the IDPA match!!

Monica

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Minds are like parachutes ...
they ONLY function when open!

AAshooter
05-28-2001, 04:53
DreamWeaver, the issue you bring up is the aspect that the encounter is unavoidable. If you can avoid it or retreat, you have a moral obligation to do so. Further, in many cases you have a legal requirement to do so. Your states sounds like one of those.

Even if you can avoid criminal charges, the civil lawsuit that is likely to be filed against you in a shooting is strengthened by those actions. I, for one, would also sleep better knowing I did everything I could to avoid the use of lethal force.

turet
05-28-2001, 05:12
Whether you are allowed to stand your ground against an assailant, or whether you must try to run, depends on the state. In CA, you *are* allowed to stand your ground. And you are justified in shooting if someone who is a threat (e.g., larger, has weapon, etc.) breaks into your place, or if they enter *after you have told them verbally not to enter*. It is pretty indefensible to shoot someone in your front yard, I would think. Unless you could demonstrate that there wasn't time to gather the kids and get inside, etc.

There are really two issues here: would you be arrested on criminal charges, by the cops? Or would you be sued by the family of the assailant in a civil suit (like the second OJ trial). There are many cases where the cops were satisfied with what the self-defense shooter did, but they were dragged into a lengthy and very expensive (like $100K+) civil trial, the results of which are very unpredictable. This is reason enough to be very clear about your actions. Since you aren't going to be thinking clearly during a real life attack, you need to think about it beforehand. Dalton and Fowler recommend having family drills to practice exactly what will happen in the event of an intrusion. This makes total sense, especially if there are children in the family.

On the issue of an attacker with a knife...Mike Dalton said they did tests with "attackers" who were 20 feet away from the shooter. Regardless of how fast the shooter was, they were *not able* to draw and fire before the knife-wielder was able to cross the room. This is the best argument against triggerlocks that I've ever heard!

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The Mindtrekker
Big Dawg #44, G17!

AAshooter
05-29-2001, 07:40
MXB, it sounds like you are on pretty solid ground and asking/thinking about the right issues. I, too, found the distances someone could travel before I could present and shoot sobering. It told me that any strangers I see in my home or fenced back yard are already too close in most cases.

lil' mikey
05-29-2001, 12:29
I don't know about VA, but as a guy in Washington State, it's my impression (I wish I had the exact law infront of me) that I can use any means neccessary, inluding deadly force, against someone if they are about to commit or in the process of commiting a felony (robbery, assault, etc.), OR to protect myself or any third party if I feel I/they are in imminent danger of bodily harm or death, OR in the event of some sort of home invasion. However, I am only justified in using deadly force to prevent the crime from taking place or during the crime. Once there is no longer a reasonable threat (I take the BG down, they turn to flee, etc...), and I keep shooting, it's assault or murder (depending on if they live).

All of this depends on my state of mind ("I felt my life was threatened, your honor").

WA law gives A LOT of room. There was recently a shooting near the University of Washington, where a kid from near my hometown ran into an intersection, jumped on the hood of a pizza delivery guy's car, and tried to open the door and reach for the pizzaman. The pizzaguy shot him without warning, killing him nearly instantly.

Turned out, the kid was hopped up on acid and had been hugging random people on the street and telling them that he loved them. The pizzaguy had no way of knowing this, and since he carried a lot of money around (being a pizzaguy), thought he was getting robbed. The DA said the pizzaguy made "a dumb decision", but was justified in his actions.

I don't know how much this would apply to VA, but I think your state of mind goes a long way towards justification. I would have at least warned the kid, but I wasn't there.

Like everyone's said, "I feared for my life, your honor". And know an attorney, just in case.

mxb
05-29-2001, 14:09
I don't think I would have warned...maybe I would if they were just hanging onto my car and did not reach for my door/window.
One of the incidents that made me want to get my CHL was a woman I know who was in a fast food drive up lane and a guy came from behind her car, reached in the window, beat her in the face with a gun and nabbed her purse. Now, A) I always keep watch over my side and back in drive up places where I have to put my window down B) I am not under the naive delusion that I, with certainty, could have stopped this scenario if it were me & I was armed BUT ...
I surely would have been better off if the BG had wanted to carjack me or something... I dunno...just another scenario.

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Mommy With A Gun
G26
Niner's Club #2161

05-29-2001, 17:52
MXB,when you pull up to a window get as close as possible without taking off your side mirror.For carjackings where your passenger side window will be broken to gain access you can adjust your seat completly forward and fully canted forward.This may give you a few seconds to draw,and sorry about the language people I didnt realize so many people were so SENSITIVE.

mxb
05-29-2001, 18:05
I have no trouble with in-my-house scenarios. I have always been firm in the idea that a theif or whatever could break in and steal whatever and my warnings may or or may not scare him/her off, but I would not shoot unless they went to the trouble to come up my steps toward the bedrooms of myself or children...there is nothing up there but lives to messup.
Incidentally, in my house, a verbal warning comes punctuated by the sound of a Mossberg 12ga chambering a shell http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/wink.gif

aashooter...Those times/speeds are sobering. I'll keep spending time at the range.

AAshooter
05-31-2001, 02:50
I picked up another tid-bit the other night while touring the training facility for our local sheriff. One of the lead instructors stated that even if you have a great first hit (COM shot), you need to count on the bad guy being a potential threat for at least 18 seconds.

He said a dedicated opponent good probably take the shot and then empty a magazine, reload and empty a second magazine.

mxb
05-31-2001, 03:07
Man, I'm feeling like I'm defeated before I get out of bed here.

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Mommy With A Gun
G26
Niner's Club #2161

AAshooter
05-31-2001, 08:21
Glockbrain is right. You can definately overthink it. The key is to think now, plan now and respond when you need to.

For example, when I discovered this information I walked my house mentally measuring 21 feet down all the sight lines. They are very few areas in my home I can see further than 21 feet. That told me if I encounter an unarmed stranger in my house, it is time to respond. I will not stand and talk without preparing for an attack, even if they are not moving toward me.

MXB, you are already ahead because you are thinking of the right issues. Couple that with some practice and your miles ahead of most.

05-31-2001, 08:51
A 20 guage with a pistol grip and 18 inch barrel is a good defensive weapon for a lady.Number 3 or 4 buckshot is very good for ranges less than 30 feet.

Brainglock
05-31-2001, 18:59
MXB,
I feel your pain it seems like some post make you wonder if you have the right to shoot or not to shoot. Trying to think of all the rules about what to do if some man or woman that breaks in to your house is a real danger to you at 3am is not something I think you or any other person should do. I don't think that your first post was saying if a person coomes in your home can you just shoot at first sight. I'm ready to defend my home but if someone that I didn't fear after catching him or her I might not draw my weapon but my wife might be afraid if it happens to her. I think if you fear for your life protect yourself and let 12 other people
listen to you than read about your murder.


Originally posted by mxb:
Man, I'm feeling like I'm defeated before I get out of bed here.





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Dodge this.........

mxb
06-01-2001, 04:15
bottleneck..
glad to hear someone else say that. Several years ago, my hubby was finishing college and I was alone alot in a ground floor apt. in an old house in dumpy, college neighborhood. I had mentioned to an ex local detective that I was afraid of being in a sit'n where I knew someone was in my apt. and coming for me and me to be a sitting duck with NOTHING to defend myself. I didn't want a handgun because I didn't feel I could hit anything with it. Wanted to be able to point a shotgun in the general vicinity of a doorway and not miss. Subsequently, I bought a 12ga pump action Mossberg with the shortest legal barrel. I have kept same under my bed and ready to go since then....
However, having kids has changed the protocol on shotgun. So, here I am with a Glock 26. The in-house issues are resolved in my mind...it's the carry scenarios that I am mentally working on now....
Everyone's posts here have been so helpful.

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Mommy With A Gun
G26
Niner's Club #2161

Glenn E. Meyer
06-01-2001, 07:53
While the data are clear that guns are wonderful deterrents, when shotguns are recommended - I would suggest taking a shotgun course.

It opens your eyes to their real limitations and uses. Most trainers don't like the pistol grip only guns.

But I don't want to put someone down. You certainly are better with a 20 gauge than without. I just think you really benefit from some training. There are good courses on this in TX from www.krtraining.com (http://www.krtraining.com) and OPS (whose url is too long to type - look for their ad).

Glenn

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Niner #2001
Wheelhouse #442642

AAshooter
06-01-2001, 08:40
I support the training advice as far as shotguns. Many people believe you can clear the street with a shotgun from the hip. In home defense, the shotgun needs to be aimed.

Here is an example of the pattern of 00 buck through a VangComp at 7 yards (probably a 18 - 20" barrel). This is probably a typical distance or less in a home invasion situation.
http://www.vangcomp.com/7_yards.htm

This is tighter than most short-barreled shotguns will shoot. But clearly you need to aim a shotgun at close distances. The key is to pattern the gun and, as always, practice.

As far as pistol grips, I am not a fan. I think the main issue is that you generally want to use a shotgun as a shouldered weapon. Instructors seem to discourage pistol grips that don't have a butt stock that can be shouldered.



[This message has been edited by aashooter (edited 06-01-2001).]

MrKandiyohi
06-01-2001, 13:58
DreamWeaver:

It sounds like Chersterfield is similar to Minnesota. Here, we have a "Duty to Retreat" which means that you can't lie in wait for a bad guy who you know is coming if you have a means of escape. You also can't shoot someone for stealing property.

But here there is a concept called "Unknown Peril" which may be applicable to you. If it's at night and someone breaks into your house, you're not automatically required to leave your house through a window or door. You have no way of knowing if another person is outside. You are not required to "abandon protection". If a family member is also in the house, you are not required to abandon them.

I would recommend that you take a lesson(s) from an instructor trained in self-defense and its legal issues.

Disclaimer: Not an attorney...blah, blah, blah

turet
06-02-2001, 08:18
If you are worried about aiming the shotgun, perhaps you should consider getting a laser sight. I don't think they are very expensive and it makes the entire procedure literally "point and click." http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/smile.gif

You do need to compensate a tad for the distance you are shooting. My sight is zeroed for about 20' and so it's not quite accurate at much shorter distances.

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The Mindtrekker
Big Dawg #44, G17!

fuel
06-02-2001, 09:19
There is a similar section of the Penal Code in CA as well. All I know is that, if someone enters my apartment, I will draw and defend. Going beyond the boundaries of my home are threat enough, especially to my child. On the outside, I do not have a CCW, so it is indeed a different line of thinking.

06-02-2001, 20:14
A laser can work for a shotgun.I like a mini-flashlight focused a little larger than the buckshot spread and to the same point of aim,activator on the pistol grip.If you can see them you can blast them.I believe a 12 guage is too powerfull for the short ranges indoors,the 20 allows faster followup shots.It really amounts to training,get lots and lots of training and practice,and never hesitate.

[This message has been edited by bottleneck (edited 06-03-2001).]

DaveR120
06-03-2001, 03:19
The best possible advice is to say nothing except asking to call your lawyer.

That being said, we all know how 's#*% happens', and we find ourselves wanted the LEO to believe we were right, so we tend to say more than that. I printed the sentence 'I was in fear of my life' on a transparency and placed it over my NRA membership card, opposite my carry permit. I just hope that If I find my self spouting-off while showing my permit to the LEO after an incident, that I see that message, and that those are some of the first words out of my mouth....That's what I want the LEO to testify I said when it gets into that court room....

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NRA Life Member, S.A.F.E., GSSF Life Member
10 CCW's, 26 States
Big Dawg #694, Niner's Club #126, Wheelhouse #410,
"What's the real difference between a Liberal and a Conservative? Answer: On

glklvr
06-04-2001, 09:27
DreamWeaver-
I'm suprised Chesterfield Co. told you that. It's something I'd expect to hear from Henrico P.D.!

It's my understanding that in Va you can use with Deadly Force to prevent a "crime of violence" which includes kidnapping, murder(of course), and rape, among others. Your best advice is to ask the Commonwealth Atty. in your jurisdiction.

I think that people overcomplicate the self-defense issue. I think its due to the number of horror stories that people hear which, in my humble opinion, are overrated. Yes, bad prosecutions do happen, but I think the number of good self-defense cases far outweigh the bad. Most of the bad cases are when somebody does something stupid.(Like shoot them and then drag them inside)

test yourself- Look down your hallway and imagine a Bad Guy coming down it towards you. Ask yourself- AM I IN FEAR OF DEATH OR SERIOUS BODILY HARM? If you can answer "yes", then you are justified in using deadly force.

F4GIB
06-06-2001, 03:39
The best book on this subject is "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob. It's only $9.95. That is inexpensive "legal" insurance and it contains a discussion of the law of self-defense that is better than anything I ever seen in a legal text.
see: http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=1NP71ID3WP&mscssid=T5USC6FJ539G9KS0DC23PXHM13A80A77&isbn=0936279001

buzz_knox
06-08-2001, 18:00
I don't know if it's been said before as I haven't checked all the postings, but the "disparity of force" rule should apply. Generally, a woman will never be considered to be a equal to a male in terms of physical ability during a fight. Our cultural predisposition is to see females as physically weaker (unless you can show that the female is combat trained, first female SEAL, Janet Reno, etc). So, an unarmed male versus unarmed female is a massive disparity of force, and her life is in danger. A firearm or other deadly weapon just balances the equation.

As long as the jeoparady is real, the person has the clear and evidenced intent, and the opportunity exists for him to cause grave bodily injury or death, lethal force is justified, even if he's unarmed.

DJ Niner
06-09-2001, 22:27
I would suggest copying this thread to your computer's hard drive, as I believe ANY info you obtained prior to an incident is admissible in court when it comes to your state of mind. If you end up having to defend yourself, and you've been told (for instance) how quickly a person can reach you with a knife or impact weapon, being able to prove to a jury that you had this info BEFORE the incident will be invaluable.

Of course, this can also work against you if there is info here that could have helped you avoid or defuse the incident. Your lawyer is the one who should evaluate the info and tell you if it's in your best interest to "use it or lose it". In any case, the lawyer should know that these written conversations took place, and what was in them, as the OTHER side may find out about them even if you choose not to reveal the info yourself.

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9mm: All a True Marksman needs.
Niner's Club #39, Wheelhouse #586
The Glocks are stock, and the revolvers ROCK! (for the most part...)

esqueue
06-10-2001, 10:18
glklvr, nothing here in Central Va surprises me. With the system of independent cities and counties I've seen a wide variety of LE philosophies, even within the same jurisdiction. You can go from one interpretation of the law to another just by crossing the street <G>.

Something I haven't gotten a consistent interpretation on (sorry for the tangent here) is "is it defense of an innocent if you're defending your dog from attack by the BG?". Va law views dogs as property, so some see it as defense of property. But, dogs are another life and considered family members by many, so they could be viewed as innocents defensible by deadly force. It seems to me that if an intruder tries to take out one of my dogs (who will be trying to defend me from the BG) that I can reasonably infer from the BG's actions that my life is in danger. I haven't found an answer to this though. The barristers I've asked haven't known of any precedents and weren't criminal lawyers. Any thoughts?

Originally posted by glklvr:
DreamWeaver-
I'm suprised Chesterfield Co. told you that. It's something I'd expect to hear from Henrico P.D.!

It's my understanding that in Va you can use with Deadly Force to prevent a "crime of violence" which includes kidnapping, murder(of course), and rape, among others. Your best advice is to ask the Commonwealth Atty. in your jurisdiction.




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Big dogs,big guns,big Burb - big fun!

QueridaNegra
08-29-2002, 05:19
As far as I'm concerned, if you enter MY apt (I live in an efficiency, hence only 3 rooms lol), the first you will know that I am there is the gun going BOOM. I'm female, and there is not one place IN my apt 21 ft away from ANYTHING else. No one else but me and the landlord has keys to my apt, and they don't come in after 5. Therefore I assume just by fact of entry that you mean me harm, and am consequently properly afraid.

And just a thought, for when I get a house, if I wanted to cover myself legally (for court and the civil trial), do you think if I put up little transparent decals on the windows and on the doors saying "If you are not here by express invitation, you are considered a trespasser and will be shot on site within this residence", that it constitutes ample warning (yes, this assumes everyone can read, but that's what public schools are about - you shouldn't be breaking and entering anyway, and it's not my fault you didn't take the time to learn to read)? Keep in mind that I live in Pa, which as far as I know has no duty to retreat laws (feel free to correct and/or educate me if I'm wrong).

leadbutt
08-29-2002, 16:05
mkb,here in VA.remember one thing when it comes to deadly force,it is what you precieve,as we teach in the academy to recurits,if you are in fear of,SERIOUS BODILY HARM,OR IMPAREMENT OF SAME,deadly force may be justified,this is where the disparty of force comes in.Remember also here in VA.stealing a car from you does NOT warrant deadly force,unless{CATCH-22},you or your loved ones or in jepordy of the same as above.You can not use deadly force in VA. to protect property.
In VA.it is the King of the house rule for most,some cities try and make retreat an issue,but as you have posted that you live in a 2 story,you should be alright,i.e.kids up stairs,you at the head of the stairs,oldest kid calling 911 if possible and staying on the line,or you do it as you stand there,if the BG startes up the stair case,you warn it that you have a weapon and will use it,also be recorded by the dispatcher at the same time.after that it comes down to it being smart enough to leave or try its luck.You have recieved several good post and ideas,don't drive your self nutts trying to think it all thru
just practice.

Gary F
09-02-2002, 01:23
Originally posted by QueridaNegra
As far as I'm concerned, if you enter MY apt (I live in an efficiency, hence only 3 rooms lol), the first you will know that I am there is the gun going BOOM. I'm female, and there is not one place IN my apt 21 ft away from ANYTHING else. No one else but me and the landlord has keys to my apt, and they don't come in after 5. Therefore I assume just by fact of entry that you mean me harm, and am consequently properly afraid.

And just a thought, for when I get a house, if I wanted to cover myself legally (for court and the civil trial), do you think if I put up little transparent decals on the windows and on the doors saying "If you are not here by express invitation, you are considered a trespasser and will be shot on site within this residence", that it constitutes ample warning (yes, this assumes everyone can read, but that's what public schools are about - you shouldn't be breaking and entering anyway, and it's not my fault you didn't take the time to learn to read)? Keep in mind that I live in Pa, which as far as I know has no duty to retreat laws (feel free to correct and/or educate me if I'm wrong).

QueridaNegra: Hmmm .... keep in mind that the gun going boom in a small efficiency ... may mean bullets flying into adjacent apartments? magsafe or glasser (frangible) ammo may help lessen the risk of you mowing down others who live in the complex ;L At the moment you are fortunate to live in PA .... where there is no specific legal requirement to retreat in your home (though it's usually a good alternative ... if you can do it without increasing jeopardy...). Don't be voting for Rendell or your self-defense legal rights could deteriorate rather rapidly ... (uuuhh ... he's never heard of a firearm being used for self-defense & thinks it's all a crock...).
---With respect to the house & the catchy little decals (warnings) ... probably not a good idea:
1) It's an invitation to badguys looking for some uuuhhh "free" guns
2) If you ever have to shoot someone for self-defense ... the lawyers for the bad guy (or the bad guy's family if you did a good job ;), will portray you as a Rambo (ok ... a 'Bond Girl') who was eagerly looking for an excuse to shoot someone. and if you ever should shoot a partner ... after they ran out at 2:00am to get you some Vick's cough suppressant ... well you are sort of totally screwed with those things plastered all over your domicile!! just have yourself a good brew before the police show up .... because it'll be your last one in a long, long while! ;c
peace, gary
dgg9: do you have a good defensive firearms use lawyer?

QueridaNegra
09-02-2002, 12:02
Originally posted by Gary F


QueridaNegra: Hmmm .... keep in mind that the gun going boom in a small efficiency ... may mean bullets flying into adjacent apartments? magsafe or glasser (frangible) ammo may help lessen the risk of you mowing down others who live in the complex ;L At the moment you are fortunate to live in PA .... where there is no specific legal requirement to retreat in your home (though it's usually a good alternative ... if you can do it without increasing jeopardy...). Don't be voting for Rendell or your self-defense legal rights could deteriorate rather rapidly ... (uuuhh ... he's never heard of a firearm being used for self-defense & thinks it's all a crock...).
---With respect to the house & the catchy little decals (warnings) ... probably not a good idea:
1) It's an invitation to badguys looking for some uuuhhh "free" guns
2) If you ever have to shoot someone for self-defense ... the lawyers for the bad guy (or the bad guy's family if you did a good job ;), will portray you as a Rambo (ok ... a 'Bond Girl') who was eagerly looking for an excuse to shoot someone. and if you ever should shoot a partner ... after they ran out at 2:00am to get you some Vick's cough suppressant ... well you are sort of totally screwed with those things plastered all over your domicile!! just have yourself a good brew before the police show up .... because it'll be your last one in a long, long while! ;c
peace, gary
dgg9: do you have a good defensive firearms use lawyer?

I already thought of the neighbors - walls are ridiculously thick in my building (it's an OOOOOLLLLLD Building - you can't hear a darnthing in here unless you stand outside someone's door, no matter WHAT they're doing). As to the obligation to retreat, it's on the third floor and a corner apt - if they're coming in the front door, I couldn't exactly jump out the window lol, so I would still be covered there. As for Rendell - I'm from Philly, I already know better lol. Good pt about the bad guys looking for "free" guns - although personally I'd feel bad for them, considering the reason I would have the decals up (but we all know that people aren't too bright today). There is no "partner" to worry about - although if there were, we would have already had a discussion about the do's and don'ts of my household - coming from a large city, living by myself, and having all my friends from either NYC or Philly, they already know to make SURE that I know they're there, and I know who they are at all times.

SlimKim
09-02-2002, 15:06
mxb, the following information comes from a friend of mine who went through Masad Ayoob's class "Judicious Use of Deadly Force".

You may use deadly force to protect the innocent from the immediate, unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm.

You may use deadly force if the attacker has the Ability (the power to kill/maim), Opportunity (capable of immediatly employing the Ability) and, is a Jeopardy (acting in such a matter that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that the Ability and Opportunity was about to take place.

Grave bodily harm includes, among other things, rape, savage (heinous) beating, dismemberment.

Disparity Of Force can indeed mean man vs woman. A 250lb man fighting a 120 lb woman is a disparity of force. Of course if the 250lb man is a cripple in a wheelchair and the woman is a buffed out martial arts expert, the disparity could work in favour of the man and against the woman.

Disparity of Force is a judgement thing though quite valid. It would be up to your lawyer to make the jury understand your position.

You must also remember that deadly force can only be used to defend against an Immediate threat. If you say "I have a gun" and he goes away, you can't shoot him (generally speaking).

This is very basic information and, as has already been said; you really need to get hold of a lawyer, buy an hour of his time and get the straight scoop from him. If you know of any cops in your area, they might tell you who covers self defense cases in your area.

Glenn E. Meyer
09-04-2002, 09:17
I would like to add a caution. While it is non-logical, there is some indications in the jury simulation literature that a trained woman or one using a more fearsome looking gun, is held to a higher standard than the poor, gender stereotyped woman. The logic is that if someone violates a gender stereotype then they must be more to blame. Go figure but that's the way this stuff works.

It is legitimate research and not done by antis. The conclusion is NOT that one should not train or have adequate weapons but that your attorney should be cognizant of such risks and have a plan to defuse such an attack by the prosecution. This shouldn't be hard to do if your lawyer knows his or her stuff or can research this issue. If they are unaware of the findings, then you need a new lawyer or they need to study up quickly.

SlimKim
09-04-2002, 12:15
Mr Meyer brought up a very good point. Again, according to my friend, the Ayoob graduate, the private citizen who chooses to go about armed WILL be held up to "a higher standard" than the unarmed person ("you, of all people, should have known..."), the criminal or the police. What this means is that the armed citizen MUST KNOW her or his rights regarding the use of deadly force. It's not good enough to believe that one is in the right. One must KNOW that one is in the right and be able to make a jury understand in both the law and common sense that one was forced to use deadly force.

Deadly force for the private citizen is a very slippery and scary prospect once you start to fully understand the implications of execising that Right. You really owe it to yourself to spend some time and money finding out THE TRUTH as it pertains to your own area.

P.S. forget anything you read on the internet or in a gunzine. It's very easy to spout off when the spouter can't be held responsible. GET LEGAL ADVICE!! $100 or so now could save your life!

badbilly429
09-04-2002, 14:11
this has to be one of the best threads ive read yet on GT. very informative information here guys, and gals.

that being said, im glad i live in MI home of the "CASTLE DOCTRINE" no duty to retreat your castle, or home that is.

Scarlett
09-04-2002, 17:05
Mr. Meyer is right on concerning how even basic familiarity, much less for-real training, with firearms will become an issue should you have to use deadly force. This applies no matter your gender.

Any of us who shoot competitively or any who are firearms instructors can expect to have these areas of your life examined under a microscope by a lawyer if you are involved in a shooting incident. I'm waiting for the case to come up that pulls some of the posts off of this and other websites where we often say things we wish we hadn't, where it could be especially damaging in a civil case. E-mails have already been used in many cases of other types.

Remember, even if you don't get prosecuted for a criminal charge, the family of the poor misunderstood potential rapist/robber/murderer will be going after your assets. That will happen in civil court, where it is not necessary to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but with a mere preponderance of evidence. And you never know what will sway a jury these days.

Does that mean stop training, practicing and posting? No, it just means be prepared and expect that it will be looked at closely. You should know better than the person without training when deadly force is necessary, just be ready to explain how your knowledge and experience played into the decision you had to make. Be certain that YOUR attorney knows all about you, your training and anything else that may come up, he or she will want as few surprises as possible when you are on the stand.

Scarlett