What schools teach ground work/grappling? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mhill
04-06-2005, 12:22
Which styles out there teach good ground work and grappling? I'd like to learn some submission moves. I basically have no fighting skills on the ground. I took Judo and know basic wrestling.

mhill

gr81disp
04-06-2005, 13:47
Basic, all-around = Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (NOT Japanese).

Some Judo schools are really good also. Sambo, and Catchwrestling. Go here http://www.bjj.org/academies/ for bjj schools.

Roundeyesamurai
04-06-2005, 15:31
Originally posted by gr81disp
Basic, all-around = Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (NOT Japanese).

This is incorrect- the difference between 'Brazilian' and 'Japanese' Jujutsu styles, is largely in the instructional method, not as much in the techniques themselves. Brazilian Jiu Jutsu, simply put, is katame waza writ large.

It would be more appropriate to say "If you're looking for a system which specializes in...", and then recommend 'BJJ'. The "NOT Japanese", comment, without further discussion, looks a little bit too much like "my style is better than (blank)'s style".

Be careful, also, about making commentary about "all styles of Jujutsu"- remember, at one point in time in Japan's history, the term "jujutsu" was as broad as the modern term "unarmed combat", encompassing scores of different methods, some of which bore very little resemblance to one another.

Now, having said that, I would second the recommendation for 'BJJ'.

gr81disp
04-06-2005, 18:21
One could make the same argument for Judo but when talking about specializing, the chances of finding a JJJ school with good ne waza is much less likely.

Adam Thiel
04-06-2005, 19:33
Brazilian Jiujitsu all the way. If you're a former wrestler, you're going to LOVE this stuff. It's basically everything illegal that you wanted to do in wrestling but couldn't ;) , and then some.

Mntneer357
04-07-2005, 07:48
My style is Shintoyoshin Jiu-jitsu...and we do a great deal of ground-fighting. Our style, though Japanese, is heavily influenced by Chinese hitting styles (baguazang, hsing-yi). We get much of our ground fighting drills/skills from both the Gracies and the Machado brothers to augment our "curriculum".

Improvise. Overcome. Adapt.

Cheers!
Mntneer357

Adam Thiel
04-07-2005, 09:29
Bagua's great stuff. Hands-down the best combat throws I've ever seen. A teacher out here in So. CA by the name of Tim Cartmell teaches this stuff, and he also cross trains in BJJ. If you guys ever get a chance to train with him, do so. His Bagua style is very grappling oriented, and it leads very nicely into the ground fighting of BJJ. His throwing technique is the best I've ever seen.

cobain187
04-11-2005, 13:18
Just remember that BJJ and other grappeling styles are SPORT and not Self-defense. Jiu jitsu is great for subduing a drunken relative at the family bbq, but will get you seriously injured or killed if used to defend yourself in a deadly encounter.

Stay Safe.

Roundeyesamurai
04-11-2005, 13:58
Originally posted by cobain187
Jiu jitsu is great for subduing a drunken relative at the family bbq, but will get you seriously injured or killed if used to defend yourself in a deadly encounter.

Do you have anything with which to substantiate this?

Broad, sweeping, derogatory generalizations are what cause other martial arts forums to go down the toilet- this is a board for discussion, not for characterization.

gr81disp
04-11-2005, 15:20
Jiu jitsu is great for subduing a drunken relative at the family bbq, but will get you seriously injured or killed if used to defend yourself in a deadly encounter.

You are correct, which is why they teach it at police academies, to Marines, US Army Rangers, etc. ;Q

ARH
04-12-2005, 00:07
Originally posted by cobain187
Just remember that BJJ and other grappeling styles are SPORT and not Self-defense. Jiu jitsu is great for subduing a drunken relative at the family bbq, but will get you seriously injured or killed if used to defend yourself in a deadly encounter.

Stay Safe.

I suppose it was only ever going to be a matter of time.;Q

fastvfr
04-12-2005, 01:21
You might want to look into Aikido.

It is a very fluid form of fighting that can make its practicioners even more deadly when fighting from the ground.

This isn't to say that Aikido training specifically teaches ground fighting. Instead it teaches harmony and efficiency of movement so that you can turn any situation you might find yourself in into an advantageous one.

How many people do you know that are prepared to fight with and close with a man who is comfortable fighting from the deck? Few that I know could.

IMHO Bruce Lee's "Jeet Kune Do" (Way of No Way, more or less) is still a sound approach, in that you will be best served by combining a variety of skills with your personal interpretation of the style you train with to be both highly lethal and totally unpredictable.

A strong mixture of Aikido, Ju-jitsu and Kung-fu (or Togakure Ryu, or Greco-Roman wrestling, or...?), when tailored to an individual's strengths to best cover his or her weaknesses, will leave most cops, Marines and SF soldiers of average skill in a bloody tangle simply because they have never faced such an opponent, are usure as to what might come next in the way of offense or defense, and are therefore not in their element.

To train in only one disipline is, to my mind, willingly preparing to fail in battle.

It is only by taking as many useful concepts from as many widely varied sources as possible that one can hope to achieve their pinnacle of martial effectiveness.

Deputydave
04-12-2005, 17:17
Originally posted by cobain187
Just remember that BJJ and other grappeling styles are SPORT and not Self-defense. Jiu jitsu is great for subduing a drunken relative at the family bbq, but will get you seriously injured or killed if used to defend yourself in a deadly encounter.

Stay Safe.

Actually he is making a valid point. BJJ is a sport with SD applications. However the sporting applications are what has given it an identity. For example, I know Royce personally. He teaches at SEPSI occasionally. This is where I teach academy and in-service classes to LEO and Corrections in HL areas. He is a GREAT guy and this in NO WAY is meant as a flame towards him. But he did have to modify what he teaches as a result of feedback that he received from Officers. In other words, what and how he teaches BJJ now differs from what he did originally.

A great example of what I'm talking about took place in the parking lot after class about day 4 of a 5 day BJJ for LE course. My friend [retired NYPD and current Tae KiDo Instructor] bumped into a couple of LEOs talking about how great the BJJ course was. My friend asked them what they were learning and why it was so great. After a lengthy description, my friend [always the cynic ;) ] asked them a very simple question, "How much of what you learned could you actually use on the street?" The Officer got a strange look on his face, cocked his head to one side then said, "Well....none of it really."

Then why train in it? If you are going to go into competitions like the UFC and Pride etc then BJJ is great! If you're only interested in SD then you definately don't need BJJ [in it's typical sport application venue]. And it is not an easy task to find non-sport BJJ just the same as non-sport TKD.

Here is a great reason, and one of many. Sport grappling that emphasizes going for the take-down, arm bar or submission is great in competitions when there is a soft mat or canvas, a referee, a controlled environment, rules, time outs, tap outs, no weapons and an opponent that abides by the same rules and really doesn't want to kill you. Now lets translate that to a dark parking lot, between parked cars with broken glass or debris on the asphalt, no rules and the Bg is determined, has a weapon and possibly friends aiding him. That training is great in the ring and a detriment in the street.

I know lots of people who may not agree, thats fine. However I would never train any of my students any type of submission type techniques for the same reason I would never teach any tippy-tap point sparring, it simply doesn't work for serious SD.

Again it all depends on what your goal is.

gr81disp
04-12-2005, 18:24
Read my thread. http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?postid=4071417#post4071417

PS It is spelled Royce

Deputydave
04-12-2005, 18:31
Thank you for the correction, I was typing and doing several other things at the same time. However, it really doesn't matter if anyone believes I know him or not ;Q The points are valid.

gr81disp
04-12-2005, 18:32
Editted above to make me sound like less of an !@#hole.

Adam Thiel
04-12-2005, 19:48
Most of the guys I have trained with are black belts in other systems. You're crazy to just limit yourself to one system. However, a good base in grappling is the one thing you cannot be without. As for the sport vs. street-fighting thing, most of the guys that spend any length of time in Jiujitsu know the difference, and they train for it. There are a lot of techniques you can do on the street that you cannot do in a tournament, i.e. neck cranks/breaks, eye gouging, heel hooks, strikes, etc. And cross training in other systems is crucial. If you're serious about Jiujitsu, eventually you will address these issues. BJJ is not a sport-only system. People see the UFC and think that's all there is. Nothing could be further from the truth.

ARH
04-12-2005, 20:06
Actually he is making a valid point. BJJ is a sport with SD applications.

That is wrong. It is a martial art that has both self defence and sport applications.

However I would never train any of my students any type of submission type techniques for the same reason I would never teach any tippy-tap point sparring, it simply doesn't work for serious SD.

Well it certainly is impressiev to finally meet someone that won't be hindered by a broken arm or leg, or can't be choked unconscious!

And it isn't like any of those escapes ever come in handy...;Q

Deputydave
04-12-2005, 20:13
It is a martial art that has both self defence and sport applications.

Not in the form I've seen taught as recently as last year in LEO only courses. Does it have 'street' value? Yes. Is the 'street' aspect what is selling it? No. It's feed to those that think the UFC is as real as a street encounter.

Well it certainly is impressiev to finally meet someone that won't be hindered by a broken arm or leg, or can't be choked unconscious!

Well I don't have a big red 'S' on my chest but I've 'sparred' with students of Karl Gotch and haven't been choked out yet. Haven't gotten anything broken either. And neither has any of my students. We simply don't fight 'their' fight.

And escapes are great, the realistic and practical ones anyway.

Adam Thiel
04-12-2005, 20:35
I think one of the weak links in BJJ for a long time was the fact that it did not emphasize take downs and sprawls like wrestling does. These may be the most important aspects of the fight, to dictate where the fight takes place, to be able to stand up and get away from the fight if need be, to be able to stay on top. Escapes are vital. Since we're all here on Glock Talk, no doubt in a deadly situation, we'd rather shoot than try to play Bruce Lee. I don't plan on taking on two or more guys without a handgun, if I can help it.

bluemeanie
04-12-2005, 20:42
Well, not being very far into it, I can't tell you exactly how much groundfighting is taught in American Goju, but I can tell you that takedowns and escapes were part of my first belt test.

I know that while I'm on the road, the rest of my class is working on trips and some other cool ground techniques and I'm missin' it:(

All in all, I am satisfied with what we're learning, and I think it's a good basis for self-defense. Next on my list is Kali-Escrima, but that's a couple of years down the road.

Deputydave
04-12-2005, 20:45
Originally posted by gr81disp
You are correct, which is why they teach it at police academies, to Marines, US Army Rangers, etc. ;Q

Really? I teach police academies. There is very little JJ in it. And there is NO BJJ at all. One of my students is a former Marine DT Instructor [20 yr vet and a Black belt level instructor]. I've got the most current training manual as well. It is combatives, heavy on WWII framework. I would not describe it as JJ or BJJ. And I've seen Sgt. Holyfield teach Army DT, I would describe it as more TKD than anything else.

ARH
04-12-2005, 21:04
Not in the form I've seen taught as recently as last year in LEO only courses. Does it have 'street' value? Yes. Is the 'street' aspect what is selling it? No.

It may not be what is selling it, but there is more to BJJ than successful marketing. While sport BJJ is the most prevalant, and there is no shortage of people who can't make the adaptation to real life, that doesn't discount its value when propely applied.

I think one of the weak links in BJJ for a long time was the fact that it did not emphasize take downs and sprawls like wrestling does.

Ding ding ding! Give that man a star!

This is my #1 pet *****ing topic when it comes to BJJ. This is one of the major areas where I think sport BJJ is crippling the martial art. The points system seems to have been created with little in mind as far as fight strategy goes, with the end result it is easier to pull guard rather than take someone down, and the all famous 'lay and prey' tactic.

At least it is yet another reason to cross train. While I spend most of my training in BJJ, I think Sambo has done a much better job of creating a more 'strategically viable' grappling system.

Deputydave
04-12-2005, 21:20
It may not be what is selling it, but there is more to BJJ than successful marketing. While sport BJJ is the most prevalant, and there is no shortage of people who can't make the adaptation to real life, that doesn't discount its value when propely applied.

Agreed, but the key word is when it is properly applied. Royce had to modify what he taught at SEPSI due to feed back of other instructors taking the class. Although the sport aspect was interesting, it wasn't applicable to what was needed on duty. I still don't agree with everything that is taught in the 40 hr course but it seems to be a far cry more practical and realistic. In the circles I travel/teach/work in that is the ONLY measure that counts.

I'm not knocking sport anything if thats your bag. But don't confuse it with practical/tactical training. BJJ is just like TKD in that they both have a very prevelant sport side and an often overlooked 'real-deal' side. I just ask that it is called for what it is.

MARTIN FISHER
04-13-2005, 10:29
DD,
I find it really amazing you have never been tapped or choked out. If so, you really are not sparring with the top guys in the art. Maybe you need to get out more?

grenadier
04-13-2005, 12:46
I'm not going to get into a fluid distance contest here, over which is better.

It's extremely helpful to be familiar with both striking and grappling. Even if one doesn't make his "weaker" aspect a big priority, at least familiarity helps him defend himself.

Too many people trained in straight up fighting and having no ground fighting / grappling training, will panic once they hit the floor. Maybe they'll get lucky and never have to ground fight, but there's always the chance that the fight can go to the ground.

At the same time, those who specialized in grappling and ignored striking skills, can find themselves in terrible situations when confronted with multiple opponents, or if someone manages to gouge their eyes or bite their fingers / hands / etc, could easily panic.

Many styles of martial arts will begin with the emphasis on striking or grappling, and then as the student becomes more advanced, the other aspect will be gradually brought "up to speed." It doesn't hurt, though, and can only help, if one cross trains at the same time. Furthermore, you'll be working different sets of muscles with each aspect trained, and will be better balanced.

My old instructor in West Columbia, SC, teaches both Karate and Jiu Jitsu, and encourages people to cross train. Even if they don't cross train, they're still going to get some exposure to the other art. In some of the Karate classes, we'd work throws, grappling, etc., and I was certainly glad for the exposure.

Deputydave
04-13-2005, 14:11
Originally posted by MARTIN FISHER
DD,
I find it really amazing you have never been tapped or choked out. If so, you really are not sparring with the top guys in the art. Maybe you need to get out more?

Since I don't train in a sport venue there is no reason to be tapped or not tapped. Bgs don't try to make you tap, they try to kill or damage you. The objective is to prevent them from doing so and regaining your feet as quickly as possible. Simple as that. I've been choked and reguarly have my assistant choke me in seminars to prove that it is not necessarily a fight stopper and if you don't panic you have opportunities that can be exploited. Particuarly since you know where the enemies hands are. Force on force doesn't always carry the day.

Perhaps you should get out to a PCR seminar. Cheers. ;a

tenn mickey
04-18-2005, 14:47
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is the best system to teach ground grappling. Anyone who tells you it is sport based is very misguided.

cobain187
04-20-2005, 13:13
Roundeyesamurai

Originally posted by cobain187
Jiu jitsu is great for subduing a drunken relative at the family bbq, but will get you seriously injured or killed if used to defend yourself in a deadly encounter.



Do you have anything with which to substantiate this?


Someone else posted the proper answer

Here is a great reason, and one of many. Sport grappling that emphasizes going for the take-down, arm bar or submission is great in competitions when there is a soft mat or canvas, a referee, a controlled environment, rules, time outs, tap outs, no weapons and an opponent that abides by the same rules and really doesn't want to kill you. Now lets translate that to a dark parking lot, between parked cars with broken glass or debris on the asphalt, no rules and the Bg is determined, has a weapon and possibly friends aiding him. That training is great in the ring and a detriment in the street.


Very well said.

If anyone is interested in self defense programs for the security minded citizen or law enforcement, then i most highly recommend

www.hockscqc.com

and

www.attackproof.com

Also take time to read the various articles and editorials on both sites.

Roundeyesamurai
04-20-2005, 14:02
cobain187:

Ah, I see, your post was an advertisement.

The purpose of this forum is not to denigrate one system in preference to another- especially for the purpose of espousing one's own guru(s) as being "The Ultimate". There's been enough Kool-Aid drinking on other forums, let's not bring it over here.

mhill
04-20-2005, 15:22
Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
cobain187:

Ah, I see, your post was an advertisement.

The purpose of this forum is not to denigrate one system in preference to another- especially for the purpose of espousing one's own guru(s) as being "The Ultimate". There's been enough Kool-Aid drinking on other forums, let's not bring it over here.

Ahh, very wise Roundeyesamurai, now pass the Koolaid. ;f ;f

ARH
04-21-2005, 01:23
You have to be impressed though. It normally takes at least a couple of weeks before a forum gets taken over by people trying to argue how grappling is useless.;Q

It is hard to believe that in this day and age, people are still trying to rationalise the dismissal of major portions of what happens in a fight.

Roundeyesamurai
04-21-2005, 06:42
Originally posted by ARH
You have to be impressed though. It normally takes at least a couple of weeks before a forum gets taken over by people trying to argue how grappling is useless.

Have you also noticed, that the people usually making such arguments, will also try to sell you videos? LOL

"Grappling is useless, but watch these videos by (guru), and you'll know everything you need to know!"

You know, it'd be a shame if this forum went the way of "Style X is completely useless", but it'd also be equally a shame if it went the other way- "Style X is the absolute best thing around, period".

Rather than denigrate other systems, this forum ought to be used for the purpose of discussing how each of us does things. I have no problem with (indeed, I encourage) well-reasoned, thoroughly considered discussions of why one method is inferior to another, because that encourages similarly well-reasoned and considered discussion in favor of same method.

Free and open exchange of information, is how we'll all progress. If someone on this forum isn't here in order to learn and progress (even to learn from other styles), then I submit that he should quit training and start buying videos instead.

ARH
04-21-2005, 08:59
But style X realy is...oh never mind. I haven't produced the DVD's anyway.:)

MARTIN FISHER
04-21-2005, 10:41
DANG IT! You guys beat me too it. Like I aready posted, it amazes me that some people think these dirty little tricks everyone has been using for the past 6000 years are somehow new and the answer to everything.

Lets see, nobody has ever grabbed my groin , that would really end it for me! ;Q Noboby has ever tried to fishhook me, that would end it for sure.;Q
Nobody has ever eye gouged me, that would end it for sure.;Q

Nobody has ever told me I could use those techinques against someone else.;Q

Nobody has ever shown me what real ground fighting is:

"KCD Groundfighting reinforces all of this and more. Using modified Native American principles, you learn to fight with your legs from the ground in a very savage, unique and free manner that resembles a break dancer spazzing out on caffeine."

I am sure Rickson has never been exposed to that kind of attack, and who exactly did he get the Native American principles from? And why did they have to be modified? Maybe more important, where did he learn to break dance?

That does it! I am giving up Gracie/BJJ/JKD/Muay Thai/Boxing/Savate/kali right now! To think I have waisted the past 20 years of my life and all that money on the Gracies, Paul Vunak, Tom Cruse, Sharam Moosavi, all those hours getting in shape when all I have to do is grab someones groin and avoid the ground by moving around and slapping them! Oh, and train in an elevator!

Pass me the kool-aid, I am outta here!

Deputydave
04-21-2005, 18:10
Originally posted by tenn mickey
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is the best system to teach ground grappling.

Actually I would recommend Tony Lambria over Gracie BJJ. He has experience that is vital and more applicable i.e. Corrections, LEO, Senior DT instructor at FLETC. I know both men and appreciate what they have to offer. But people like Tony Lambria, Tony Blauer and Ken Good are much more in demand at places like SEPSI.



You have to be impressed though. It normally takes at least a couple of weeks before a forum gets taken over by people trying to argue how grappling is useless.

I don't think anyone is trying to make the case that grappling is useless. Only that there is a difference in the focus of 'sport' and 'street'. Both share common elements, but the end goals are quite often different as is the approach. I think the 'grapplers' in the thread need to understand that no one is 'attacking' their art. Just offering an honest assestment based on personal experience.

That is what these boards are suppose to be about. Lets not read into anything or 'look' for an us vs. them angle. I like grappling within the definition, focus and goals that I train in and teach. They aren't to win anything, they are simply to go home each night. To this end I teach/train in those concepts I have seen work the best. That is why I recommend the above instructors.

And no, I don't own stock nor should this be viewed as an 'advertisement' ;Q Another purpose of these boards is to pass on information to others concerning personally used systems of instruction.

ARH
04-21-2005, 22:53
I don't think anyone is trying to make the case that grappling is useless. Only that there is a difference in the focus of 'sport' and 'street'.

Well that is not what has been posted. The problem is people posting can't get over the fact grappling has applications beyond sport, and just because aspects of grappling have sport applications doesn't mean they can't apply to other venu's as well.

Just remember that BJJ and other grappeling styles are SPORT and not Self-defense.
Actually he is making a valid point. BJJ is a sport with SD applications.
"How much of what you learned could you actually use on the street?" The Officer got a strange look on his face, cocked his head to one side then said, "Well....none of it really."

This whole internet wide s@#tfight reminds me a great deal of pre UFC days when grappling was completely dismissed as being "just a sport", "I can't be taken down/choked/submitrted", "I'll just bite/eye gouge"etc etc etc. When finally put to the test they found out the hard way the only thing they will be doing is losing...badly!

Now aftrer overcoming the 'grappling is useless' and now the 'grappling is everything' phase, we have finally come full circle and have large sectors of the martial arts community who have decided grappling is useless again, thus returning us to the point that made grappling so successful to start with...the other guy wasn't trained in it.

What is really funny, in a really sad kind of way is the number of people who won't train in grappling in order to spite grapplers.;Q

At the end of the day it all comes down to natural selection in action, and regardless of the decisions each person makes, the human species will come out better for it in the end.

Deputydave
04-22-2005, 21:13
The problem is people posting can't get over the fact grappling has applications beyond sport, and just because aspects of grappling have sport applications doesn't mean they can't apply to other venu's as well.

Still think your reaching for a problem that doesn't exist. I've posted repeatedly that there is 'sport' grappling and 'street' grappling.

"How much of what you learned could you actually use on the street?" The Officer got a strange look on his face, cocked his head to one side then said, "Well....none of it really."

Lets take a good look at my post...in context. Gracie,as I mentioned, had to revise what and how he taught for SEPSI. His original presentation was sport oriented and wasn't very applicable to LE. That is why much of it originally was 'neat' but not of much practical use. Royce took this and to his credit has a much better understanding of what this particular target audience needed. Now it is a much better course.


This whole internet wide s@#tfight reminds me a great deal of pre UFC days when grappling was completely dismissed as being "just a sport", "I can't be taken down/choked/submitrted", "I'll just bite/eye gouge"etc etc etc. When finally put to the test they found out the hard way the only thing they will be doing is losing...badly!

This doesn't make sense my friend. You can't bite, eye gouge, strike the throat or groin in the UFC. It is against the rules. In the street there are no rules. So nothing was proved because the UFC is an artificial environment. Anything with rules, refs, mats, time out and tap outs is artificial.

This is a very, VERY important thing to remember. Again, this isn't a 'grappling sucks' commentary. I LIKE grappling...but within the context of reality grappling rather than one designed for an artificial setting.

cobain187
04-22-2005, 23:07
Deputy dave made some great points

A great article on grapplings shortcomings as an art to be used in life or death situations can be found at http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html

The information from nononsenseselfdefense , has been some of the most eye/mind opening material that I have ever read, in terms of informing individuals "not" to buy into things(such as the ""ultimate"" fighting art). Marc pulls no punches and burns all sacred cows (including mine).

The purpose of the two CQC links I posted were trying to inform the other readers of the forum. Why is it an "advertisement" when I mention it in this thread, but other threads where individuals share websites (that they dont profit from) concerning locating holsters or other accesories isnt looked down upon. I make no profit by mentioning hockscqc or attackproof.

The purpose of my posts have been to share my opinion, that I feel is logical and credible with the other members of this forum. I don't play the "my art is better than your art" game .

The grapplers that have replied to my post have taken my statement as a personal attack, either upon them or worst their art. An attack being worst on their art, because if my words hurt them that deeply, then there art has become their cult.

When I say that grappleing is good for the drunken relative at the family bbq, it is not an attack on bjj. I have studied relson bjj for a year and throroughly enjoyed. But it is my opinion that it is not taking a myriad of factors into consideration in a life or death struggle. Rather than quick replies about koolaid, or me getting into armchair antics and myself ignoring the "realities" of fighting, wherby grappling is useful, grapplers also ignore the realities of where grappeling WOULD come up short, regardless of the color of your belt.

Bjj makes the most sense, when you do not want to permantly/seriously injure your opponent, AND they are ALSO not trying to injure/maim/kill you. Thats why I mentioned the drunken relative. Would you grapple against a man holding a knife? What happens when you take mount on a guy and his buddy cracks your skull with a shovel? These are the shortcomings of bjj/grappeling/etc that i was trying to make a point about. It doesn't mean that the fight will go down precisely in the above scenario, but its is my opinion an inescapable reality that one will eventually try to use their grappling in a sitation where it will not do the job.

Many different people sell cqc programs in gun magazines. I dont claim to be an expert at choosing the good from the bad. I have had good experiences with the material from the two websites that I listed above. The reccuring theme that I look for now is "the chaos of combat" which both programs/instructors mention repeatedly. Fighting is unchoreographed chaos. If you don't train in chaos, how can you perfrom effectively in chaos?

I feel that military cqc tactics/techniques (that flow with chaos) is the best methods of self-defense/martial arts/fighting style/ectetcetc when there is no avenue of escape or other weapon to pick up. If a guy is trying to kill you, why do you want to submit him ? Attack the attacker or escape. Eye gouges, throat chops, groin rips, palm heel strikes(the combination of the above comprise the SLAPS one sees in attackproofs video clips), anything to end the attack.

If one man aims to kill and the other aims to submit, the latter has a poor chance of survival. Thats the equivalent of a man with an ar15 fighting a man with a taser(outside of tasers 21 feet). Whos going to win?

The cqc sites that I mentioned were not only to inform, but to HELP because I am a compassionate person, and even though we don't know most to any of the members of this forum in person, I think we all feel a kinsmanship regarding the protection of our own life and the lives of our loved ones. I hoped that someome might question their unarmed tactics, individuals who rely on grappeling as their backup, unarmed system. I hoped that they may decide that cqc tactics should take preference in their unarmed training time and it might save the life of an innocent person one day.

I hope that all of the readers of this post will take the time to read this post twice before they lay in for the attack again, because I can already hear them sharpening their tongues, "for the tongue is sharper than a double-edged sword."

ARH
04-23-2005, 03:17
Just to pick on one point which I think is the most fundamental misnomer behind all of this.

Still think your reaching for a problem that doesn't exist. I've posted repeatedly that there is 'sport' grappling and 'street' grappling.

There is no such thing as 'sport' grappling and 'street' grappling, there is just grappling, and as this thread seems to pretty heavily suggest, there is a great misunderstanding in what that involves. The only difference comes in how it is applied, which this thread has yet to touch on since we are still stuck in the 'my art is better than yours' rubbish.

There is no other way to say it, but it is immensely ignorant to think attacks as simplistic as simply trying to bite or eye gouge can't be countered just as easily. It has been done time and time again, and the result has consistently been the same.

The whole point of grappling is to exercise control over the bad guy in order to remove what they need to carry out a successful attack, that being ballance, structural allignment and the free mobility of the limbs, while at the same time preventing the other guy from doing the same. Take those away and the bad guy can't to s@#t. They can't bite, they can't eye gouge, they can't access weapons, they can just lie there like a human pretzel and hope for the best. What happens from there is determined by the guy in control, which will be the guy who has actually trained in grappling.

The purpose of my posts have been to share my opinion, that I feel is logical and credible...

After training for only a year in BJJ it comes as no supprise you haven't worked out what BJJ is yet, let alone where it is and isn't useful.

Cobain187, there is no polite way to say this, but shut up and train. What you are posting is not logical or credible, which should come as no supprise since you would be at best a white belt in ONE grappling system, and apparently only in the sport variety of that grappling system.

There are also so many eronious statements in that article you linked that I really have to wonder just what you were thinking before if that brought you enlightenment!;Q

Roundeyesamurai
04-23-2005, 03:51
Originally posted by cobain187
The information from nononsenseselfdefense , has been some of the most eye/mind opening material that I have ever read, in terms of informing individuals "not" to buy into things(such as the ""ultimate"" fighting art). Marc pulls no punches and burns all sacred cows (including mine).

Alot of us have dealt with (frankly) trolls on other forums (and this one as well), whose comments (usually regarding a producer of videos) were defended with statements very similar to your quote above and your previous statements in this thread.

Originally posted by cobain187
The purpose of the two CQC links I posted were trying to inform the other readers of the forum. Why is it an "advertisement" when I mention it in this thread, but other threads where individuals share websites (that they dont profit from) concerning locating holsters or other accesories isnt looked down upon. I make no profit by mentioning hockscqc or attackproof.

Same answer as above, the folks who come around and troll any conversation in order to promote the material of their particular 'guru'. They usually call it "trying to inform", as well.

Presenting the links isn't an advertisement in and of itself; prefacing it with "Jiu jitsu is great for subduing a drunken relative at the family bbq, but will get you seriously injured or killed if used to defend yourself in a deadly encounter", is an advertisement for a particular instructor.

Remember, this thread was started by someone inquiring about where to obtain groundwork training, not by someone asking about whether they should train it or not. If you'd like to have a conversation about whether or not it ought to be trained in the first place, why don't you start a different thread specifically for that purpose?

Originally posted by cobain187
I don't play the "my art is better than your art" game .

The grapplers that have replied to my post have taken my statement as a personal attack, either upon them or worst their art. An attack being worst on their art, because if my words hurt them that deeply, then there art has become their cult.

Again, the same hogwash, with which we've been dealing for years.

Just because a martial art has an oriental name, doesn't make it a "cult". This is a ridiculous claim made (for marketing purposes) by the same type of instructors to which I am referring.

Originally posted by cobain187
When I say that grappleing is good for the drunken relative at the family bbq, it is not an attack on bjj. I have studied relson bjj for a year and throroughly enjoyed. But it is my opinion that it is not taking a myriad of factors into consideration in a life or death struggle.

Bjj makes the most sense, when you do not want to permantly/seriously injure your opponent, AND they are ALSO not trying to injure/maim/kill you. Thats why I mentioned the drunken relative. Would you grapple against a man holding a knife? What happens when you take mount on a guy and his buddy cracks your skull with a shovel? These are the shortcomings of bjj/grappeling/etc that i was trying to make a point about. It doesn't mean that the fight will go down precisely in the above scenario, but its is my opinion an inescapable reality that one will eventually try to use their grappling in a sitation where it will not do the job.

These are points for a discussion about the pros and cons of grappling, which belongs in its own thread. This thread was supposed to be a discussion about where to obtain grappling training. As stated above, it would be much more tactful to start a seperate thread to discuss the pros/cons of grappling, rather than pollute this thread.

As an aside, it would be a real shame if this forum went the way that so many other forums have gone- they either become a place to discuss one style (and only one style), or they become a place where one can't discuss martial arts at all, because there's a "pack of wolves" lurking around to pounce, and preach the benefits of training with their guru.

Deputydave
04-23-2005, 16:02
There is no such thing as 'sport' grappling and 'street' grappling, there is just grappling

'Sport' grappling attempts to take the fight to the ground. It attempts to submit the opponent. It is only used in an artificial environment. 'Street' grappling attempts to;

A. Stay on the feet - prevent being taken down - end the threat by whatever means is necessary and appropriate.

or if 'A' is unsucessful..

B. Regain the feet as quickly as possible, taking whatever action is necessary to achieve this objective.

Sport has an artificial environment with rules and such. Street is ANY environment, no rules and takes into consideration scenerios not trained for specifically in 'sport'.

Fact - Gracie teaches LEO only courses at SEPSI.

Fact - Gracie had to modify what he teaches to make it more applicable to the target audience based on feed back from students.

Fact - A real badguy isn't going to stop hurting you if you tap. He is likely to have a weapon. It is possible he has accomplises. It can take place anywhere and at anytime. Probably at a time that is most beneficial to your attacker and least advantageous to you.

Fact - Sport simply does not address the situations that I have described in this and other posts.

Fact - Sport has a totally different focus and objective.

If this is truly what you believe then I simply don't know what else to articulate on this point. We will simply agree to disagree.

Perhaps you need to follow your own advise;

shut up and train.

Roundeyesamurai,

Your a relative newbie here. I've been here almost from the beginning. I've seen links to other sites on just about any topic you'd care to mention. I've yet to see it be an issue or a problem [except of course links to porn etc]. Particuarly since the poster sincerely believes the offered information is of value to the topic at hand. Is there a bit of thread drift? Perhaps, but show me a long running thread that doesn't have a bit or more.

I would suggest you enjoy information that is thoughtfully offered whether or not you agree with it and stop playing moderator. No one is trolling, only expressing their veiw point based on their personal experiences. What the board is all about.

Cheers.

Roundeyesamurai
04-23-2005, 16:32
Originally posted by Deputydave
Roundeyesamurai,

Your a relative newbie here. I've been here almost from the beginning. I've seen links to other sites on just about any topic you'd care to mention. I've yet to see it be an issue or a problem [except of course links to porn etc]. Particuarly since the poster sincerely believes the offered information is of value to the topic at hand. Is there a bit of thread drift? Perhaps, but show me a long running thread that doesn't have a bit or more.

I would suggest you enjoy information that is thoughtfully offered whether or not you agree with it and stop playing moderator. No one is trolling, only expressing their veiw point based on their personal experiences. What the board is all about.



Excuse me, I am not a 'newbie' here. Even if I were, the subject of "internet seniority" carries very little water with me.

I have seen inumerable martial arts forums go to crap in a hurry, because of threads exactly like this one. I don't appreciate you belittling my efforts to prevent the same here, by accusing me of "playing moderator". I find it difficult to believe that anyone whose handle begins with "Deputy" is unable to recognize the injection of reason into a discussion to prevent it from blowing over.

I did not disparage Cobain's position- I recommended that he express it in a more seemly manner. Don't confuse the two, based on your own personal opinion. There is a difference between "thread drift" and "thread polluting", and I was trying to head off any pollution before it occurred. NOTE THAT I SAID "BEFORE IT OCCURRED", LEST ANYONE ACCUSE ME OF SAYING THAT IT OCCURRED ALREADY.

The biggest mistake which could be made, is to allow anyone to bring old behaviors from other (defunct) martial arts forums, to this new one. We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard of conduct, not the same old internet BS. Anyone who has been around the various forums knows the warning signs of when a forum is going to go downhill; I'm just very good at articulating those warning signs.

Over-the-top is what it is, even if it is from a position with which you agree.

Deputydave
04-23-2005, 17:03
Excuse me, I am not a 'newbie' here.

Your profile suggests you've not even been here a full year. To me, that is a newbie. I've been here over six years and seen people come and go and am familar with the way the board flows. Regardless, you really need to stop playing at moderator unless you are officially made one by Eric. Whatever your intentions you seem to be as guilty of thread re-direction as anyone. If you are truly interested in keeping it friendly and 'unpolluted' then I suggest you use the PM feature of the board. The only thing I've seen thus far here is people present their opinions honestly and thoughtfully. Disagreement can be a welcome thing as it challenges one to look inward to either solidify their postion..or rethink it.

Cheers.

Roundeyesamurai
04-23-2005, 17:08
Originally posted by Deputydave
Your profile suggests you've not even been here a full year. To me, that is a newbie. I've been here over six years and seen people come and go and am familar with the way the board flows. Regardless, you really need to stop playing at moderator unless you are officially made one by Eric. Whatever your intentions you seem to be as guilty of thread re-direction as anyone. If you are truly interested in keeping it friendly and 'unpolluted' then I suggest you use the PM feature of the board. The only thing I've seen thus far here is people present their opinions honestly and thoughtfully. Disagreement can be a welcome thing as it challenges one to look inward to either solidify their postion..or rethink it.



Why, thank you for reiterating your previous post, just for the purpose of trying to have the last word.

Since I have already addressed every one of your statements, I (for one) see no reason to repeat myself.

Deputydave
04-23-2005, 17:52
What a well thought out and 'on topic' reply ;f So much for the PM feature ;Q

Anyway, we now return you to the reguarly scheduled thread topic which was,

Which styles out there teach good ground work and grappling? I'd like to learn some submission moves. I basically have no fighting skills on the ground. I took Judo and know basic wrestling.

ARH
04-23-2005, 22:03
'Sport' grappling attempts to take the fight to the ground. It attempts to submit the opponent. It is only used in an artificial environment.

Hostile subject control also attempts to take the fight to the ground in order to control, then restrain someone for arrest.

Is it now a sport?

Sport has an artificial environment with rules and such.

Any and all training is conducted in an artificial environment with rules. Do you bite and eye gouge your training partners?

Fact - Gracie had to modify what he teaches to make it more applicable to the target audience based on feed back from students.

An instructor modified his program based on feedback. what a revalation. Trully, I am stunned.

Can you name an instructor who hasn't modified their program based on student feedback?

Fact - A real badguy isn't going to stop hurting you if you tap.

This is a stupid point to make. Tapping is a training aid to prevent limbs being broken when in training.

In addition to biting and eye gouging your training partners, do you also break their limbs as well?

He is likely to have a weapon.

And how do we prevent weapons access and employment? By controlling and shutting down the arms.

Shock of horrors, that is grappling!

It is possible he has accomplises.

And grappling will provide the ability to remain mobile to escape by preventing the other guys from exercising control over your movement through defensive clinch work and the prevention of pins.

It can take place anywhere and at anytime. Probably at a time that is most beneficial to your attacker and least advantageous to you.

And striking will somehow solve this...how?

Fact - Sport simply does not address the situations that I have described in this and other posts.

Since you have no background in such combat sports, you aren't in a position to say what they do and don't address.

You said it yourself, Royce was able to modify what he did to make it applicable to law enforcement. I somehow doubt what he came up with was the result of his extensive career in law enforcement.

Fact - Sport has a totally different focus and objective.

That is wrong. The format for Sambo, as an example, was created specifically for its crossover to combative applications.

The hot tip is still to actually go out and see how far your current beliefs get you rather than theorise, since it has all been said and done before, and the results have consistently been the same.

BlackBelt
04-24-2005, 08:18
DeputyDave, I'm intrigued by what you said about Royce having to change some of his BJJ techniques to fit into the LE training. I don't want to expose anything that's not meant to be exposed, but could you give an example (just one or two) of what types of changes you are referring to? The only thing that I could think of was that because the officer would be armed, he wouldn't want the BG to get near his firearm, and so some techniques would have to be altered to keep the BG's arms from getting same-side access to the officers firearm...but I'm just guessing here.
Also, to the other fellows that were eluding to BJJ not being 'self-defense' oriented...I'll let you know it works extremely well for self-defense (I bounced in some pretty tough bars for a few years). I never wanted to go to the ground with anyone if I could handle the problem standing up, but sometimes I had to deal with tough guys that saw my 'Barney Fife' looking self and took issue with me asking them to leave. I can tell you it's much easier to get an out-of-control muscle bound tough guy to leave when he's holding his elbow/neck/wrist/or whatever, and crying like a baby than it is when he's got a load of 'liquid courage' running in his veins.
And, as an aside, not all trouble makers are drunk, so please don't say that BJJ only works on drunks. Some just have serious issues- i.e.- don't know how to handle rejections by women, think that someone insulted/dissed them because they were a) stepped on b)pushed c) are emotional basketcases d) jealous e)every other reason on the face of the planet...

gr81disp
04-25-2005, 11:24
I am guessing that the reason Royce had to modify his techniques is because LEOs cannot just break a limb, but have to restrain somebody or else it is "police brutality". Do not forget the scaling of use of force. Contrary to popular belief, Bjj's purpose is to break limbs and choke people unconscious while maintaining a dominant position against a violent opponent.

Deputydave
04-27-2005, 17:13
ARH,

Perhaps you didnt' catch the part about 'thread drift'? On this I am in complete agreement with Roundeyesamurai. This isn't the thread for further discussion along the lines you, I and a couple of others have taken it. However, I would enjoy continued discussion on it HERE (http://www.martialwarrior.com/index.php?showtopic=812) or you may begin your own thread on the topic as your a member there. I'd be happy to discuss it with you [and anyone else] there. :)

Stay safe.

MARTIN FISHER
04-28-2005, 09:57
DD,
I read most of the posts you linked too. I really liked the one where it was posted (I assume by you) that if you were allowed to fight "dirty" you might be able to take Royce Gracie in the octagon. Well, I would say you are wrong. I would say you are wrong because I know Royce is better on the ground then you are. Do you honestly think Royce or Rickson have never been exposed to eye gouging, biting or throat strikes?

While there are BJJ/GJJ black belts you might be able to pull of those grade school play ground cheap shots on, to put yourself in the same class as any one of the Gracies in any fight situation is just pontification and fantasy (until you do it that is). If you really think you could do that, and you might, give the Gracies a call, I am sure they could find some big money backers to put up say $100,000 to the winner of such an event.

Or do your martial morals and christian warrior purity keep you from prize fighting to back up all your hot air?

Edited to add: I am not trying to start a challenge board or thread. I have just gotten to a point in my personal/professional MA career that I no longer tolerate those who have a black belt in what I call "If fighting". No matter what is being discussed, they always say "Thats true, but *IF* I can do X, then I would win a real fight with Y."

Put up or shut up.

Deputydave
04-28-2005, 16:20
Somebody doesn't know how to stay on topic ;Q

Somebody has his panties in a twist ;f

Somebody knows where to find me if they want to run there mouth further ;a

Roundeyesamurai
04-28-2005, 16:33
Originally posted by Deputydave
Somebody doesn't know how to stay on topic ;Q

Originally posted by Deputydave
Perhaps you didnt' catch the part about 'thread drift'? On this I am in complete agreement with Roundeyesamurai. This isn't the thread for further discussion along the lines you, I and a couple of others have taken it. However, I would enjoy continued discussion on it HERE (http://www.martialwarrior.com/index.php?showtopic=812) or you may begin your own thread on the topic as your a member there. I'd be happy to discuss it with you [and anyone else] there.

I had intended to leave this thread alone, but I have to comment on these posts-

Didn't you accuse me of "playing moderator" for saying exactly the same thing? Specifically, didn't you accuse me of "playing moderator" for suggesting that it would be better to start a thread about the merits of ground training, rather than hijack this thread (which was started by someone seeking out a place to obtain such training)?

Now, of course, since it fits your purposes, you 'agree' with me that that is the correct course of action.

Not only that, but you reserved 'agreeing' with me until you could start a thread on your own forum, rather than this one, to hold the same discussion.

Your statements that I have quoted here are extremely hypocritical, especially in light of your accusations toward me, for making precisely the same statements.

Either you owe me an apology for your earlier statements, or your "advanced years" on GlockTalk entitle you to hypocrisy.

dosei
04-28-2005, 16:45
Originally posted by mhill
Which styles out there teach good ground work and grappling? I'd like to learn some submission moves.

Aikido is very effective. If there is a dojo in your area I highly recommend you check it out. But don't just watch it, do it. You do not realize just how effective it is until you actually do it.

Roundeyesamurai
04-28-2005, 16:49
Originally posted by dosei
Aikido is very effective. If there is a dojo in your area I highly recommend you check it out. But don't just watch it, do it. You do not realize just how effective it is until you actually do it.

Uh oh... mentioning 'Aikido' usually results in a thread lock.

Here comes the "wolf pack"! ;Q

Deputydave
04-28-2005, 16:54
I had intended to leave this thread alone, but I have to comment on these posts

Same here...


Didn't you accuse me of "playing moderator"

Yes, yes I did. However it is blatantly one sided.

Not only that, but you reserved 'agreeing' with me until you could start a thread on your own forum, rather than this one, to hold the same discussion.

Do a little more research, the linked thread was begun months ago. Although your comments were one-sided, though they weren't really your 'place' given the tone you used, you were correct in that this isn't the thread to discuss this in. So giving you a little credit for a good idea [if meant differently] I have agree with your point. Sorry to agree with you ;Q Seems like you haven't decided to stick with your own suggestion though. Do you know what a private msg is?

Either you owe me an apology for your earlier statements, or your "advanced years" on GlockTalk entitle you to hypocrisy.

I don't think I owe you an apology, however if you would feel better with one....My apologies. I hope you accept my apology and I hope the somewhat hostile tone on everyones part calms down. A couple of people are simply not understanding the points of view that are being offered and are instead showing their frustration. This is truly a pity as learning ceases when it gets to that point.

So with that in mind, I am giving you full credit for a good idea in wanting to see this thread back on its original track. I will assist you in this effort. If anyone wishes to speak further on this topic then again, they know where I am and I would be happy to discuss this topic with them in the spirit of friendliness.

Stay safe.

Deputydave
04-28-2005, 17:02
Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
Uh oh... mentioning 'Aikido' usually results in a thread lock.

Here comes the "wolf pack"! ;Q

Why would discussing Aikido in a martial arts forum result in a thread lock?

Who is this wolf pack and why do they have a problem with grappling?

In reference to the topic of the thread; There are several very good Tae KiDo schools around the country. Not all teach exactly the same outline, however they are similar in many regards.

There are quite a few 'combatives' schools/courses around the country as well. I have mentioned Tony Blauer and Tony Lambria. Carl Cestari would also be a good choice. Click here (http://martialwarrior.com) and take a look at the links on the left side of the page. There are quite a few links to realistic ground figthing/grappling along with course listings.

Roundeyesamurai
04-28-2005, 18:45
Originally posted by Deputydave
Who is this wolf pack and why do they have a problem with grappling?



The "Wolf Pack" is a group of people who've basically taken to trailing me around the internet bashing aikido. It's even happened on this site (though, by now, the thread is gone).

It's not so much a problem with grappling, it's a problem with aikido.

Deputydave
04-28-2005, 18:48
I'm sorry this has happened to you. Nothing wrong with Aikido. I feel it has quite a bit to offer anyone.

Stay safe.

ARH
04-28-2005, 22:21
Here comes the "wolf pack"!

I think we also need to mention Systema in order for the jinx to be complete.

Now it's done.;b

MARTIN FISHER
04-29-2005, 11:19
ARH,

Just to derail this thread some more, did I see you on the internet taking on some Yellow Bamboo specialists on a beach down under?

Deputydave
04-29-2005, 11:24
I think we also need to mention Systema in order for the jinx to be complete.

;f

Just to derail this thread some more, did I see you on the internet taking on some Yellow Bamboo specialists on a beach down under?

Wasn't that the 'e-budo' flap a couple of months ago? I was a bit shocked at the tid bits I heard from various sources ;P

Anyway, in order to help keep this thread on topic, I've begun a thread specifically on the topic of heated discussion earlier. It is linked

Here (http://www.martialwarrior.com/index.php?showtopic=1080)

This is to offer clarification to any that would like to discuss it further. Take care and stay safe :)

Deputydave
04-29-2005, 18:41
Originally posted by BlackBelt
DeputyDave, I'm intrigued by what you said about Royce having to change some of his BJJ techniques to fit into the LE training. I don't want to expose anything that's not meant to be exposed, but could you give an example (just one or two) of what types of changes you are referring to? The only thing that I could think of was that because the officer would be armed, he wouldn't want the BG to get near his firearm, and so some techniques would have to be altered to keep the BG's arms from getting same-side access to the officers firearm...but I'm just guessing here.
Also, to the other fellows that were eluding to BJJ not being 'self-defense' oriented...I'll let you know it works extremely well for self-defense (I bounced in some pretty tough bars for a few years). I never wanted to go to the ground with anyone if I could handle the problem standing up, but sometimes I had to deal with tough guys that saw my 'Barney Fife' looking self and took issue with me asking them to leave. I can tell you it's much easier to get an out-of-control muscle bound tough guy to leave when he's holding his elbow/neck/wrist/or whatever, and crying like a baby than it is when he's got a load of 'liquid courage' running in his veins.
And, as an aside, not all trouble makers are drunk, so please don't say that BJJ only works on drunks. Some just have serious issues- i.e.- don't know how to handle rejections by women, think that someone insulted/dissed them because they were a) stepped on b)pushed c) are emotional basketcases d) jealous e)every other reason on the face of the planet...

BB, sorry I didn't get a chance to address your post earlier. The point you mentioned concerning weapon retentions is right on the money. Early classes in BJJ for SEPSI did not address this very real consideration for Officers [or the CCW citizen]. They did not take into account the attacker armed with a hidden weapon nor multiple attackers very well. It was more 'octagon' oriented. While useful one-on-one in a control scenerio it didn't effectively make a bridge to more deadly scenerios involving weapons/multiple attackers. To his credit, Royce seems to be adapting to the needs of this target audience.

One other point brought up was mobility. It is one thing to be in a gi or workout clothes on a comforatble mat where you are warmed up and have maximum flexability. It is quite another to be in full duty gear and vest. Some things can be done, others are much more difficult. Some vests don't allow the same range of motion needed to perform some of the more 'colorful' techniques. Vests have come a long way of course, but they and body type are a consideration. This was seen when Officers trained in full gear. There was a noticable difference in proficency in some areas.

Hope this answered your questions somewhat :)

ARH
04-29-2005, 21:54
Originally posted by MARTIN FISHER
ARH,

Just to derail this thread some more, did I see you on the internet taking on some Yellow Bamboo specialists on a beach down under?

Nyet.

While I do have excessive ammounts of time on my hand at the moment, it hasn't been that bad yet.

Ironeagle74
05-02-2005, 00:15
deputy dave, I was wondering how these other instructors of "street grappling" and what they offered were better after Royce had modified his training?

Also, how often does these LEO's train these techniques?