View Full Version : Blasting vs. Acuracy
I've always wondered about the difference in competition between blasting and shooting the most accurately that I can. In the past I have shoot conservatively. To me I always thought that I would do much better getting my hits than going full out. I have had a problem trusting my new found speed. In a qualifier today I shot two guns. One I blasted away with about 1 second draws, saw a minimum sight picture (see what you need to see) and pulled the trigger. The other gun my draws were slower, I really had nice sight pictures and I got most of my points. The times were drastically different and so were the points down between the two.
I finished within 2% of each other for scores - vertually identical scores. I was shocked. My eyes were opened somewhat in that I never thought that I could throw in a "Mike" but be that much faster that I was still ahead of the game or at least even. Now, I just need to shoot faster and more accurately and will move up faster.
The moral of the story to me is that if you work on speed drills, trust your speed and just go for it. The other side of the coin is that if you really get your hits you can be substaintially slower and still do well. There is probably a point in there that maximizes both. Shooting faster with decent hits is still the name of the game.
Insert obligatory motivational quote here.
You can shoot A's just as fast as you can shoot D's.
As a newb to IDPA the advice I was given from some people is...
Find what range you can blast away at w/ REASONABLE hits and push speed up to that range (for me seems 7-8 yards).
Anything past that range aim carefully as any FTN can be devastating, as can having to reshoot steel.
I know that is what Brian says, and for him it may be true. I think that most of the average IDPA Sharpshooter/Expert class or USPSA C / B shooters cannot speed up twice as fast as their normal time and shoot the same. Bluntly I don't think most people can go from a 4.6 to 2.25 string. I'm speaking to radically different speeds. Speeds that push your own personal envelop. Again, draws went from 1.6 to 1.7 to sub second, grip and rip blast.
I've read the very same comments that you have on the BE sight, own Brian's book, all of Matt's DVDs. I bought my first defensive pistol in Mid Dec of 04 and 4 months later am approaching 4000 rounds through the G34. I'm a C class shooter in USPSA and a Shapshooter in IDPA. Missed Expert today by 10 seconds with a score of 130 in Production - needed 120 to make Expert. I'll be there before the end of the year one way or another. That's just a little background to see where I am coming from. I haven't shot this game for the last 5 years. Strides right now in breaking the next barrier are coming by leaps and bounds. Where you start off, yes you can increase your reload time by a full second. After being in the game a while, guys get wild over a .1 time increase. The above was just stated to provide a reference point for my statements.
I hope that one day that I really will be able to shoot A's as fast as Ds. :)
There is a balance between speed and accuracy in IDPA. This is a very elusive thing. One has to figure out which stages you can hose and which ones you must shoot slower for accuracy.
I am yet to figure out this balance point.
A reality check is to shoot in a match with Dave Sevigny.
I will absolutely admitt that you can't hose stage 3 of the classifier in IDPA. It's the 20 yard string and some precision must be maintained. You're right there is a balance and I don't claim to have found it yet. I was amazed that I could hose and then shoot more accurately and end up with the same score. Just an eye opener for me.
Searching for my own balance and trying to share the experience with others - that's all that this thread is about. My new found thinking also doesn't have to be right - it's just where I am today in the search for better shooting.:)
Mark L Miller
04-10-2005, 11:34
Clay,
Congatulations, sounds like you've pushed your barriers a bit. Good job. I'm not sure where I read this but I remember one of the big guys saying to shoot one local match just as fast as you can go (& stay safe), then take the next match & slow down & get all your hits, over & over & that will help you continue to push the boundaries of your personal limits. Obviously(I hear) it's fun to win a local match but if you consider the local ones training for bigger matches & approach them that way, you can really improve quickly. Like a MD said at one of our local matches "so what if you win here, who have you beat?" We all got a laugh out of it & proceeded to have some fun & improve our skills. There is no practice like shooting under the pressure of a clock & other folks watching you.
I find it interesting that your scores with two different approaches taken to be within 2% of each other overall. May I ask, did you run & gun first or last? I believe that if a person shoots the same match two times, almost without fail they will improve a fair amount the second time.
Again, congrats on your self confidence & your improved skills. Good job! Mark
Mark, thanks for the positive comments. Your position on shooting better the second time around I would also agree with in most situations, but I didn't find it yesterday for me. I guess that I didn't learn much from the first time around. I blasted first and then slowed down - probably slowed down too much.
I shot the IDPA classifier with the same gun twice. It is a Glock 34 and it can be shot both in ESP and SSP. My SSP score was 130 and my ESP score was 133. Vertually identical. Strange shoot for me. Probably more nervous than most of the time, because this one was for "where you play" in the pecking order.
I noticed one guy who wanted to qualify low so he could win his way up into the next category. I really wanted to qualify as expert. I missed it by 10 seconds in SSP. I would much rather qualify there and never win any matches than qualify as a marksman and win a few matches. Like you said "who did you beat?" The sandbagging abounds. I take it in relationship to how the best did at the shoot not how I did in my artificial little division.
I'm not good, but really working at moving in the right direction.
Rick
Mark L Miller
04-10-2005, 13:55
Rick,
I'm not very good either but hoping to also be going the right way. I think it's better to be last in your division or class & know you were there because it is a true reflection of how you shoot than to win & know you cheated to get there.
I know a guy that shot in a big USPSA match a few weeks ago & won his class. USPSA had moved him up the week before the match. He didn't know he had moved up until a day before the match. I thought they would run an update before they scored the match but they didn't do it?????? He kept the trophy. Now, I think it would have been nice to win that trophy but winning isn't winning if you cheat! I can't believe he kept it. I guess it was their fault for not running the update but still, it left a bad taste in my mouth. It is a real shame, all in all, but I guess it is the nature of the game. We all want to win but at what cost?
Rick, Keep up the good work. Earn the wins!!!! MLM
Scum bastaad! I like your phrase and will use it often: "Who did you win against?"
The guy yesterday was telling me that he had been shooting for 3 years and usually beats Experts and Masters at the matches but shoots in Sharpshooter because he moved up after a big shoot. I lost respect for him right away.
I just want to be the best shooter that I can be and if one day I ever win a division shoot it will be because I am shooting against my peers of the same ability and happen to shoot well that day against that particular group. My goal is to be a master class shooter in IDPA and an A division shooter in USPSA. I want to attain a certain level of proficiency at my chosen sport. Rather be in the group and never win than shoot two categories down.
It takes all types. I don't think that those people that cheat like that have a very high esteam. They are always trying to make themselves seem better than they really are. Enough on others, I have enough to worry about trying to shoot my own game and get my own head in the right place to compete.
Take care Mark.
Originally posted by Mark L Miller
Clay,
Congatulations, sounds like you've pushed your barriers a bit. Good job. I'm not sure where I read this but I remember one of the big guys saying to shoot one local match just as fast as you can go (& stay safe), then take the next match & slow down & get all your hits, over & over & that will help you continue to push the boundaries of your personal limits. Obviously(I hear) it's fun to win a local match but if you consider the local ones training for bigger matches & approach them that way, you can really improve quickly. Like a MD said at one of our local matches "so what if you win here, who have you beat?" We all got a laugh out of it & proceeded to have some fun & improve our skills. There is no practice like shooting under the pressure of a clock & other folks watching you.
I find it interesting that your scores with two different approaches taken to be within 2% of each other overall. May I ask, did you run & gun first or last? I believe that if a person shoots the same match two times, almost without fail they will improve a fair amount the second time.
Again, congrats on your self confidence & your improved skills. Good job! Mark
We had a guy today do just that.
He shot 2 CDP guns , a 5" then a 4" - always shooting the 5" gun first - he bested his time by 28 seconds with the 2d-run gun.
This is over the course of a 6 stage match.
M
rhino465
04-11-2005, 00:52
"Speed versus Accuracy" is a false dichotomy, as you have to have both to do well in any of the action/practical shooting sports.
If your points are drastically different when you try to go fast, then either you really aren't seeing what you need to see, or you're making some other mistake with your marksmanship (maybe trigger control).
Rhino, just a question - Do you shoot as well with a 50% increase in speed? Maybe with your experience you can't shoot 50% faster because you are already shooting fast. I've seen Matt on his video shooting fast draws on a target that is about 3 yards and hitting a C/D zone shot with what I remember to be a .6 something draw. Who I am to criticize his technique? He actually said that he would slow down some and center the hits better.
I think that you have been reading on BE's sight about Jake doing the sub 3 second El Presidente. When those guys shoot that they are not talking about all As. So even when the hot shots speak of full out their accuracy goes down some. To win matches their has to be speed and accuracy I believe that definately. My reason for starting this thread was the surprise outcome of blasting and shooting more accurately just happen to end in the same score in this one of, single instance. I would have thought that the blasting stage would have been way down in comparison.
There is definately a balance to be had for the highest scores. Just working on my balance and by pushing one extreme then another I believe that neither is right for me, but somewhere in between.
Rick
rhino465
04-11-2005, 07:56
No, I can't go 50% faster because I can't see the front sight that fast. ;)
I'm not a very fast shooter. I can get really fast split times if I'm just whacking the trigger, but I can't reliably hit anything past a couple of yards that way. So I am learning (slowly) to let visual input from the front sight determine how fast I shoot, and nothing else. I've been doing better since I started doing it, and I think it's the best way to balance speed and acceptable accuracy.
I know what you mean about the guys chasing the three second el prez. They're not looking at sights, at least not in any meaningful way. The sight may be coincidentally between their eye and the target when the pull the trigger, but they're not relying on it.
And you're right ... people will and do push faster and often do as well or better in terms of hit factor even though their accuracy degrades. I think the key is that the big dogs know exactly why they're doing it and know what's going to happen, and they make that choice for a given situation. For people like me, however, trying to go faster quickly results in diminishing returns, especially when I shoot <cough!> IDPA matches where the fixed hit factor places an unreasonably high time penalty in shots that miss the center.
I'm sure it may work better for a lot of people to just go as fast as they can and eventually develop adequate accuracy from the other direction, but I don't think I am one of them! ;f
Up until the shoot on Saturday I have always been a hit what you aim at kind of guy. The in the previous 2 IDPA shoots I dropped a total of 7 points in one match and 8 points in the other match. I have not been anywhere close to a blaster. By hitting what I have been aiming at (for the most part) I have done well for my ability level. I am trying to develop a faster approach so that I can improve. Need to shoot more accurately and faster to get better. It's just how you develop that. Thanks for the comments Rhino, and we do miss you in the other parish.
Rick
In his training manual, Matt Burkett talks about shooting a club match on the outer edge from time to time to see what happens when you really hang it out.
There are two modes of shooting IPSC and IDPA. They are not the same. IDPA requires reasonable speed with accuracy. IPSC requires high speed with not nearly as much accuracy.
You cannot afford to shoot a lot of -1 and -3s in IDPA. You will do OK in IPSC with an A/C as long as you shoot fast. A miss in IPSC is a big bite however.
When the new IDPA rules go into effect this month two -3s gets you a failure to neutralize.
Originally posted by Ankeny
In his training manual, Matt Burkett talks about shooting a club match on the outer edge from time to time to see what happens when you really hang it out.
It's fun, try it some time :)
I seem to shoot the fastest and best when not thinking about it at all. I see the sights and I'm in recoil getting a sight picture again. When I try to shoot fast is when everything goes to hell. If I practice enough then speed just comes. if I'm not practicing my scores reflect it.
At the club again this morning (yesterday morning - night shifter who still thinks it's Monday). Best draw and one round fired .76, best before today was .79, but had many more in the .83 area today than before. Splits are run .12 and transitions about .18. These are not my competition times but rather my blaster mode all out. It is funny in that within the last few months a 1.8 second draw and one round fired wasn't that bad for me. Within a couple of months I had shaved off a full second. I love when you are new and can make huge gains. :cool:
Still working on my reloads from slide lock or an emergency reload and a speed reload as used in USPSA. Didn't work R w/ R today. My reloads were backsliding today until the light bulb came on and said to actually look at the mag opening and then things started to flow better. The main focus was trying to get the transitions down as well as the splits today. It's funny when you focus on a particular task what improvements can be made. I need to order another 1000 rounds - I'm not like many but that will be my 5th thousand this year and hopefully will take me to the end of May. I'm still on a 12,000 round pace for this season.
I have to start a true dry fire routine soon instead of my hap hazzard methods. I'll start a new thread on the dry firing process. Thanks for all of the words of encouragement and get out there and shoot instead of just talking about it.
Rick
rhino465
04-12-2005, 12:36
Originally posted by Clay1
At the club again this morning (yesterday morning - night shifter who still thinks it's Monday). Best draw and one round fired .76, best before today was .79, but had many more in the .83 area today than before. Splits are run .12 and transitions about .18. These are not my competition times but rather my blaster mode all out. It is funny in that within the last few months a 1.8 second draw and one round fired wasn't that bad for me. Within a couple of months I had shaved off a full second. I love when you are new and can make huge gains. :cool:
Dude, you're a LOT faster than I am. I think my best draw ever was 1.10 sec and in matches it's more like 1.5-ish on a good one.
Rhino, you've been around a while. I've read your writtings on this board and others. It's all a game. In the big scheme of things I am never going to be one of the hot shots, but I am going to be better than I am today. That could mean faster, more accurate etc or more knowledge in the game.
I am having a grand time, meeting new friends and enjoying the shooting sports which take into account more than just sport. For me, it is a connection with the best times that I had with my father - they usually involved firearms somehow (hunting, shooting etc.) It is also that all important political belief about firearm ownership and our second amendment rights.
Nothing special by any means just another Joe Blow having a good, clean time with firearms and friends. Life's good. ;f
Nothing special by any means...
Clay1:
I would say those times are very special. Last month I shot the classifier Melody Line at over 100 per cent with a 1.3 draw, 1.7 reload, and .25 transitions. In fact, I have shot several 98-100 per cent classifier scores with times a hell-of-a-lot slower than yours.
Ankeny, please read the BIG disclaimer:
"These are not my competition times but rather my blaster mode all out. "
That's a world away from shooting anything close to that in competition.
Rick
Rick:
You are way underestimating the innate skills you have on which you can build. I know those are all out grip it and rip it hoser times, lol. Your all out practice times are much faster than my all out practice times. You are really very, very fast.
As you gain experience and improve, the goal is to close the gap between cold and on demand times vs. warmed up practice times. Then you close the gap between practice times and match times. You might have a long way to go to close those gaps, but you have already shown you have a lot of potential as far as raw speed is concerned. Man I wish I had you speed when I was in C and B class. I had to build speed as I traveled the path. You already have it. I am envious. :)
rhino465
04-12-2005, 20:25
The Ankenator is right on the money (as usual), Rick ...
Your "blasting" times show what kind of potential you have. Once you learn how to apply that ability on a consistent basis through practice and experience, you will be doing better than you ever thought possible.
Is it safe to assume that you do a little dry fire practice here and there? Your draw times reflect that sort of thing.
I just can't force myself to do it. Maybe if I got an immediate reward of some kind ... nah! ;f
Mark L Miller
04-12-2005, 20:47
Rick,
.12 splits & .18 transitions? Man, we ought to be watching you on videos or tv or something. hahah. That is awesome. How did it feel? When I have my absolute fastest practice times, it feels right on the edge of out of control. However, if you don't keep pushing, you will never get there. Keep up the good work. How young are you? ;g Us ol' guys just can't keep up with that speed, we gotta win by playing head games with you, you know......Matt dropped a shot on that stage, Robbie had a D hit & he was going slower than you. If we can't outrun you, we will just kick you in the knee or something. ;) hahaha. Again, good job, keep practicing. I'm cheering for you! MLM
Damn that is fast. My splits at 2 feet away are around that speed I recently found out, but not that fast past there.
mc_oliver
04-13-2005, 04:21
Holy c^2p Clay! Those are awesome times. I bet if you keep at it (and hope to God you don't develop any nasty habits) slowing down 10-20% of those times will make you a very consistent shooter. Yet still faster than most. ;)
Btw, about the balancing thing. If you're looking at an IDPA stage, how about looking at it through IPSC/USPSA glasses and note that it's just like an IPSC/USPSA stage with a stage factor of 2. Should have plenty of time then to be accurate enough. ;)
Guys I shot twice today. Before and after work. I went to the range because Rick from Ameriglo herd me talking about my Ameriglo Slopes shooting low. He contacted me and sent me a new higher rear. Boy did that make the second G34 hit where it is suppose to now. I'll post a separate thanks to Rick from Ameriglo on another thread, but that's why I stopped at the range before work - I was late - don't tell my boss why.
I had to go back after work because Ankeny was talking to me about average times and not hoser times. I walked in the range after 11 hours on the the job, loaded mags and got out my Palm to record numbers. Rip and Grip totally cold here are the first 10 draws: 1.26, 1.03, .99, .97, .85, .83, .80, .81 and .86 for an average of: .928 Couldn't get anything that started with a .7 for the group.
Then I went on to a new target and was suppose to slow down some and get better hits. The above were just on brown cardboard somewhere. With out boring the snot out of you with the individual numbers this group of 10 came to an average of 1.147 and I was suppose to hit more but was pretty bumbed about not hitting the A zone (really was shooting at an IDPA target - down 0 zone) very well at all so I went for a third target and was suppose to slow down more and hit better.
Third target sucked and I slowed down to 1.481 and only had about 60% of them in the down 0. At that point it was close to 4 am and I'm shot for the day. Came home to tell you guys what the hell I was up to. Think I have been to the range maybe 5 days straight this week. I have to start dry firing. Rhino, I don't do that enough, I just keep chunking lead down range and it is costing a penny or two.
Guys thanks for the words of encouragment. Mark, I am an old guy! I turn 46 tomorrow. McOliver, one day you will have to explain more about the scoring system in USPSA. I just get frustrated when I try to figure out time/hits etc = hit factor bulloney. I like shooting it, but at the end of the match in IDPA I kind of know where I stand. Maybe will have to start that thread tomorrow.
Gotta get some sleep so I can get more done than shooting tomorrow or my wife is going to kill me.
Sorry for the long ramble.
mc_oliver
04-13-2005, 04:58
Wow, dude, 4 AM? Careful pushing yourself too much. You might find yourself burned out pretty much quickly. Leave some "thirst" for tomorrow. ;)
As for USPSA scoring and hit factors. There're loads of that discussion over at BE's forums. Honestly, and just my humble opinion, it makes my head ache too much thinking about it. So I just try to shoot my game and improve on my old benchmarks.
McOliver, I work nights so that isn't terribly late for me. ;)
Clay1:
I started shooting IPSC at the tender age of 45 years young. I had a lot of history in the precision shooting sports, but speed wasn't in my tool bag. Even us old farts can be somewhat competitive, we just start late. BTW, how old is Rob Leatham?
Mark L Miller
04-13-2005, 15:17
Ok Rick, Now I feel really slow! I won't be 46 for a few more months. Wow! Anyway, good going but watch out for burnout. USPSA hit factor was recently explained in a way I could understand it. It is the number of points you score per second. That simplifies the understanding or at least it did for me. Finally it clicked! I gotta brag on one of the guys from our club the other day. We shot this little stage that had 120 pts in it, 3 shooting positions, 4 targets, 6 shots each target. He shot a 15.5 hit factor on the thing!!!! The next nearest was a 9. He was smoking!
Rick, Happy Birthday man. Click off a few rounds for us, ok? See ya, Mark
Flexmoney
04-14-2005, 00:36
Clay, hit factor isn't all that tough to figure.
It is just points per second. Just like mph.
Flex, you slumming over here at GT or what man? I usually see you on BE. Thanks for the quick analogy.
You have to know what I mean about IDPA scoring vs. USPSA. I think that IPSC scoring is accurate and their classification divisions are more accurate, but in IDPA you can shoot a classifier and walk away from the match knowing you stand. You don't need your trusty slide rule to figure it out only to see that on a national level your score is different anyhow. Like I said a better more accurate way but something about direct translation gets a little fuzzy that's all.
Rick
Flexmoney
04-21-2005, 19:49
Originally posted by Clay1
...but in IDPA you can shoot a classifier and walk away from the match knowing you stand.
Well yeah...in IDPA you can shoot THE classifier...there is only one.
If USPSA had only one classifer stage, then you would pretty much be able to walk away from it knowing where you stand as well.
My shooting improved quite a bit when I let go of thinking about the classifiers. ;a
rhino465
04-22-2005, 07:49
Originally posted by Flexmoney
My shooting improved quite a bit when I let go of thinking about the classifiers. ;a
That and all the cheatin' practice! Heh! ;f
Flexmoney
04-22-2005, 20:08
Don't go tellin'....but, I don't really practice as much as I let on. (Sometimes it sure shows). I did more of that practice stuff when I was around C/B class.
I'll need to pick it up a notch to do any good this year though.
rhino465
04-23-2005, 06:19
Heh ... it was "guilt by association" with Mr. Anderson!
Are you shooting the Kentucky State Match in May? If so, I'll see you there and at the Indiana Match in July.
Flexmoney
04-23-2005, 14:31
If I do the Kentucky match, it will be last minute. I do plan on the Indy match though.
You oughta see Jake now. He has taken the Anderson practice pill...and it shows.
rhino465
04-24-2005, 22:40
He drank the kool-aid! HE DRANK THE KOOL-AID!
;f
Flexmoney
04-25-2005, 20:07
You should have seen him get his reload mag jammed with the mag coming oout of the gun...both mags stuck into the magwell at the neck
rhino465
04-25-2005, 22:02
Ouch! That's one of the few things I haven't done, but then I specialize more in stupdid mistakes and embarrassing blunders, whereas that's more of a timing issue. ;f
mattburkett
05-09-2005, 01:27
Ron, :-)
Here is a local competition focus drill for all of you. Try one match keeping them in the brown, next match all in the C zone or better and then move to the A's. Cycle back through it again. Bet you the second time through you start seeing some very interesting results.
Try it out. What have you got to lose? A club match?
I have anothe local match set up for this Saturday. Might just grip and rip the whole match and really see what happens instead of just a stage or two.
Funny thing is that when I gripped and ripped a stage and then was able to reshoot a stage I tried just for points and thought that I shot a higher score the second time around. This one example I actually shot a higher score the first time around even with a miss or two because I was that much faster.
Matt, looking forward to Volume 7. Do you have some trailer pieces of film on your site? I should check it out as I love your other videos - they have helped me a ton - thanks.
Rick
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