1st shot trouble, mental or physical

[ithaca_deerslayer]

The DA first shot, then SA subsequent shots can produce interesting results with the Beretta. If anyone is interested, here is my opinion on the matter. What say you?

I believe that trouble with the 1st double action shot is actually more mental than physical.

When many people shoot, they try to anticipate when the shot will "break". That is, they try to guess when the trigger will travel enough to release the hammer (or interal hammer/firing pin in the case of a Glock). That point of release is called the "break point".

When looking through the sights of a pistol, there is an "arc of movement" where the sights are attempted to be aligned on the target but nonetheless the shooter has movement so the sights are never perfectly aligned (or they are aligned but the whole alignment is bouncing back and forth from off target to on target to off target, which is the arc of movement). Some shooters try to force the alignment with an attempt to suddenly stop the arc of movement. In reality, no matter how much the shooter tries, the arc of movement cannot be stopped. Instead the arc of movement can only be reduced. Sudden attempts to stop the arc of movement tend to actually increase it.

Anticipating the break point and stopping the arc of movement are related. The shooter tends to think along the lines of "when will the hammer fall, and when can I stop the arc of movement."

In my opinion, however, the shooter should not try to anticipate the break point, and should not try to stop the arc of movement. Instead, the shooter should align the sights and mentally accept the arc of movement, and then pull the trigger steadily without trying to guess the break point when the hammer will fall, and mentally accept that the gun might fire at any point within the trigger travel. Pulling the trigger steadily does not mean slowly, and it does not mean fast, it just means at whatever speed you choose the pressure is being applied evenly throughout the trigger pull.

All of this relates to the Beretta DA/SA shots because the break point changes from first to subsequent shots, and SA shots are easier to guess. But, if you do not try to guess the break points, then all the shots become much more similar (DA and SA).

Practice with a DA revolver can help, while at the same time working on:
1. Not trying to guess the break point.
2. Not trying to stop the arc of movement.

With a DA revolver (without cocking the hammer back), the shooter learns that the 1st shot is just like any other shot.

With the Beretta, practice can also be done by de-cocking (using the de-cocking lever) before every shot, so you have a bunch of DA shots to try.

[92F]

Different strokes for different folks.

For me, it's probably more the mental issue (GREAT! ANOTHER mental issue! ;P). For my daughter, it's definitely a physical (as in Physics) issue. I watched her entire body lurch forward as she attempted to horse that trigger alllllll the way through.

I agree with most of your comments regarding DA/SA trigger issues, but after recently getting acquainted with several members of The Glock Family, I'm less and less motivated to overcome the difficulties imposed by my Beretta's trigger system. Too bad, too, because the 92F is a fine pistol.

[dhoomonyou]

One of the reasons I sold my 92 FS.
Just could NOT get used to (IMHO) that long first pull.

[srfl]

I think the DA/SA issue is mostly mental (and can be overcome with training and safe dry firing drills) when we are talking about the Beretta since the trigger pulls from the traditional DA Berettas are so smooth and manageable.....now it's a totally different story (for me at least) when you get to the DAO Berettas.....the DAO triggers on my 8045D Mini Cougar and 92D Centurion are smooth but HEAVY (!!!). I can only manage about 50 rounds out of either gun before my trigger finger and/or wrist (and will power) are spent.

[DonGlock26]

A few thoughts:

The DAO Berettas are supposed to have a lighter trigger pull than a DA/SA 92FS, so it's possible you don't have a "D" spring in yours. I put a "D" spring in my 92FS Vertec and it lightened the trigger quite a bit. The Berretta forum has alot of info on "D" springs. You can do it yourself,too.

Berettas are one of the few modern pistols that need a snap cap to protect the firing spring during dry fire practice.

Dry firing pratice is the key to mastering the DA trigger pull. Pulling the trigger smoothly to the rear without stopping, while keeping a good sight picture takes practice. I would recommend daily DF practice. When you can do it without the sights moving, try placing a coin or casing on top of the pistol. It's a physical skill, once you know what to do.

I love my Vertec 92FS. If I was going to carry a Wondernine as a service pistol again, I would get a 92G Vertec. It's the most comfortable double-stack bottom feeder, that I have used.^c

[srfl]

The trigger pull on both my D-series DAO guns are heavy.....but very smooth. Interesting though on D-series guns not having D springs....I'm sure they do.

I dry fire daily....for at least 15 minutes (more like 20-25 minutes); mixed in with draw from the holster drills.

If you want a Vertec 92G look up Brad Taylor at the Beretta Forum.....he might have a few left NIB (purchased mine from him).

[DonGlock26]

Thanks;c

[PlasticGuy]

If you are an average sized male of average strength, 95% of your shooting problems are mental.

But yes, a Beretta DA trigger is long and heavy. The D spring helps, but it's still not going to give you the same pull as a Sig or properly tuned S&W auto. I like my 92fs Vertec, but the DA trigger is not it's strong suit.

[92F]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy
The D spring helps, but it's still not going to give you...

PlasticGuy ==

Can you tell me what a "D spring" is?

[ibfurloughed]

A D spring is a hammer spring that is less weight than the factory 92/96 spring. Factory hammer spring weight is 20lbs on 92/96 da/sa models. Wolff springs makes replacements in different weights. I'm running the lightest one in my 96 Brig (16lbs) some people will not run lighter than 18lbs because they fear miss fires if it is a defense weapon. I have 400 rounds through mine with the 16lber shooting all cheap ammo with no Fail To Fires at all.

[92F]

ibfurloughed ==

Thanks for the "D spring" explanation. I'm guessing that's not something the Air Force might allow to be used in an issued/duty weapon...

I'll throw it into the mix anyway, and see what happens.

[PlasticGuy]

The "D Spring" is a Beretta factory part. It's the standard factory mainspring in the 92D, and is 100% reliable in any of the 92/96 series pistols. It is roughly the equivalent of the 18# Wolff spring. I'm using a 17# Wolff mainspring in my Vertec. After more than 6000 rounds of any kind of ammo I find on sale, I have yet to have a light firing pin strike. Not one.

Since the 18# D spring is a factory part, you might be able to get away with it for duty use. It's even mentioned in the Beretta armorers course. That will drop your trigger pull by 1.5 or 2.0 pounds in DA mode, and about a half a pound in single action. It doesn't sound like much, but it's very noticable.

If you're willing to do a couple of other non-factory tweaks, you can drop the pull a bit more. Wolff makes a lightened trigger return spring unit that will slightly lighten the pull, and greatly reduce stacking (where the trigger pull gets heaver the farther you pull it). Also, clipping a couple of loops off of the firing pin block spring will reduce the stacking at the very end of the trigger pull. Be careful with that one though, because if you take off too much you will deactivate the firing pin block. When done just right though, it helps out a lot more that most people would guess.

[92F]

PlasticGuy ==

Thanks for the additional information.

I want one for my 92F, one for my daughter's soon-to-be 92F-C, and (maybe) one for her duty/issued M9.

WHERE CAN I BUY TWO (or three)?;a

[PlasticGuy]

I got both of my D springs from a local Deputy who is a Beretta armorer. He does some private armorer work on the side, and has a website that he's just starting to build. His price on factory Beretta D springs is actually lower than any aftermarket spring you can get. If I remember correctly, they were $5-$6 each. That's hard to argue with.

Installation is easy, and I did it myself in less than five minutes. You just take the grips off, drift out one pin, switch the old spring for the new one, drive the pin back in, and put the grips back on. There's no reason to pay anyone to do it. I did two of my own, one for a friend, and two for guys I work with. After trying mine and comparing it to their stock 92's, every one of them told me to order them a D spring for their pistols. It's a pretty dramatic difference.

If you want to, send me an email. I can forward it to Brandon (the Deputy) and have him send you a price, including shipping.

[Beerslayer]

For those without the D-spring mod:

I used to have a lot of trouble with that long hard pull too.

Then a week of tactical handgun training at BlackwaterUSA changed all that, and it was all back to fundamentals.

First of all, really beef up the grip -- not so much white-knuckle tight, but get up high on that backstrap and hang on firm, and cover up any exposed grip with the weak hand. Get as much meat around that weapon as you can.

Then the trigger "press" (as opposed to squeeze): the contact with the trigger face should be on the middle of the pad of the fingertip, and only the the middle knuckle should bend. Train yourself to apply a slow, steady press, every time. Never jerk it.

Now, in a good tactical handgun class, you spend a lot of time on both reloads and on draws. In both instances with a 92FS you're going to have the weapon decocked frequently (we were required to decock everytime we holstered), so you end up doing a fairly high percentage of your shots with that longer harder DA pull. After a couple hundred drills of this, combined with other skills like shooting on the move and barricades, you actually don't notice a difference between the DA and SA pulls any more; your mind is occupied elsewhere. Nothing like intense instruction with a couple thousand rounds in a few days to beat the bad habits out of you!

So while this all might sound incredibly lame, and you all know how to grip the weapon properly and to press the trigger properly, you might actually try, at a range that allows it, to decock, re-holster, and draw for every single shot. After a long series of lots of those DA pulls, you'll adjust to it and it will become a non-issue.

Wish there were something easier or more magical than that, but sometimes there's no substitute for practice and hard work to get over a little bit of a hump.

[PlasticGuy]

Beer,

I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree. Lots of shooting is always good, when it's done right. Still, a better trigger pull will always help. As an instructor, I do know this from experience.

If you can drop your trigger pull by 15%, it will help your shooting. If you can do that for $6.00 and still keep 100% reliability, it's a no-brainer. At that point, it's time for lots and lots of practice. The last dedicated handgun class I took had me shooting 1600 rounds in four short days, and that volume of shooting, when done right, is an outstanding way to improve your shooting.

[Beerslayer]

I'm with ya, PlasticGuy. The D-spring mod is a good move for most folks. Meanwhile I'd best get out the snap caps and do some dry fire draw drills, for all those days I don't make it to the range. :)

[92F]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy
I got both of my D springs from a local Deputy who is a Beretta armorer... If you want to, send me an email. I can forward it to Brandon (the Deputy) and have him send you a price, including shipping.
PlasticGuy ==
Thanks a lot for the offer. I'm sending you an email right now.

BeerSlayer ==
Excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to relay such useful information.

[PlasticGuy]

I got your email. He just called and told me to come and pick up my new M1a Bush Rifle. I printed your email, and will take it with me when I meet Brandon tonight.