"Shocking the femoral artery" [Archive] - Glock Talk

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CobraCommander
04-26-2005, 20:35
One of the Delta Force soldiers in Black Hawk Down tells a ranger that he can knock a person unconscious with a hard kick to the inner thigh by "shocking the femoral artery".
I was a bit perplexed and asked a physiology professor who was, also, perplexed. Has anyone here ever heard of this? If so, how does it work?

ARH
04-26-2005, 21:28
There is a nerve and muscle junction running down the inside of the leg so a hit will hurt, but a KO? Not likely...

BlackBelt
04-27-2005, 06:42
I LOVE movie karate.
If I could just figure out how to fly straight up in the air 30 feet and look down upon my enemies...

Megastar 10
04-27-2005, 09:13
I've never heard or seen that done and I find it doubtful. However there are pressure points, nerve strikes & cavity strikes that sound like they won't work but do. I have only been taught a small amount of pressure point strikes but one that I learned looks as if it doesn't or shouldn't work. It is a fairly light strike, more of a push, that literally makes the person fall to the floor unconscious immediately. So I wouldn't count it out entirely, but it is probably more involved than just a hard strike to the femoral artery.

gr81disp
04-27-2005, 17:08
I do not remember that scene. I do know that you may incapacitate a person by striking the soft part of their thigh in the back with a shin kick, but that is because their leg goes numb from the pain.

Hesparus
04-27-2005, 17:26
Master George Dillman told us at a seminar that there is a class of techniques (and a while discipline) called "blood techniques" that affect the blood (and the physiological responses to it) in the same sort of manner that nerve techniques affect the body. From the little bit that I know about this, which is miniscule, the idea is that you can attack veins and arteries in ways that make the body think they have been severed. Consequently, your body will go into shock and you will loose conciousncessness.
It should be noted that at least a small portion of the things I learned at that seminar were complete horse****, so I can't verrify the accuracy of this, either.

- Chris

CobraCommander
04-27-2005, 17:53
Thank you for the responses. The scene is actually from the book and is not in the movie (it is a very minor point.)

the idea is that you can attack veins and arteries in ways that make the body think they have been severed

As far as I know, the body's sense of blood pressure originates in the carotid sinus and aortic arch and travels in cranial nerves 9 and 10 (respectively) to the Nucleus Solitarius in the brainstem (as do stretch receptors from the superior and inferior venae cavae.) I have never heard of a mechanism via which the blood pressure regulators/receptors "think" that particular vessels have been lost, as I believe that they do not sense individual vessels, just overall blood pressure.

Consequently, your body will go into shock and you will loose conciousncessness.

For shock to occur without massive blood loss would require massive blood pooling or massive vasodilation (as sometimes occurs in infection or allergic reaction.) The blood flow to the brain is autoregulated around a certain point, and blood pressure must drop below this point for cerebral blood flow to drop. For this to happen, the blood has to go somewhere, either out of the body (trauma) or into distended veins. Therefore, I would question whether this "tricking of the body" could actually occur. Just my 2 cents.

Hesparus
04-27-2005, 21:21
Thanks for shedding some light on that, CobraCommander, I don't doubt you're right.
At the time, I had no reason to believe that Master Dillman was making stuff up. Since then, however, I have been thinking over a lot of the stuff he told us and the amount of things I believe are steadily decreasing (I knew from the start that kiaijutsu was a load of crap, and it went downhill from there).
I don't recommend George Dillman to anyone. He gives his style a bad name, although there are some good people in it.

- Chris

BlackBelt
04-28-2005, 08:42
Hesparus,
Don't give up totally on Master Dillman. I didn't believe in his stuff for MANY years, because it was contrary to what I had learned through experience. But I was wrong. I've never heard anything about the blood and artery stuff discussed on this thread, but I do know and believe in his pressure-point theory. It has worked for me so many times that I can't even count. It is an excellent addition to ground fighting. When you've got that one guy down and you can't seem to submit him, or in the real world, hurt him...the pressure point system that Dillman teaches can really give you an advantage on putting 'the hurt' on him.
I went and trained with Master Jim Corn in Indiana, who has a system that based off of the Dillman system, but just puts you in a world of hurt. This guy is about as tough as they come, and teached a no B.S. approach to pressure points. There are many others out there that do the same that are in other locations around the country. Google up Pentazi, or Gary Boaz and see what comes up. Just go spend a day in a seminar with these fellows.
Let me give you an example and technique to try in your next class:
I used one of these pressure point techniques in class just the other day. We were rolling (BJJ) and I had a new student in who has his black belt in Judo, and purple in BJJ. He is one big, tough, son of a gun. He got the mount after a few minutes on me, (I still don't know how that happened...but, hey...). He was so big that I couldn't upa him off, and doing a bridge was out of the question, as he is close to time and half my weight, and he's experienced. So I pulled out one of the techniques that I learned from Master Corn. This is where you reach up with both hands, and using the 'knocking knuckles' on both fists, I rapped him hard directly under the floating ribs on both sides of his body simultaneously. He did what they all do when they get struck there. They freeze up. Their lungs have just momentarily shut down, and they have a extremely difficult time moving. At this point it was a piece of cake to push him over and off of me, and I got the mount on him and he tapped, asking "what in the world did you do to me? I couldn't breathe or move!!!"
Don't take my word for it, try it yourself.

Hesparus
04-28-2005, 10:54
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that kyusho jitsu doesn't work, I'm just saying that Master Dillman is a little bit out of control. I have worked with Sensei Pantazi a little bit (much less than I would like) and he is great. I know that pressure point fighting can and does work. It's just that some of the people who are way into it aren't 100% in touch with reality. Even Leon Jay, who I have a great amount of respect for, starts to get a little wierd when it comes to the pressure point fighting. I've seen him do a "no touch" knockout and I didn't buy it one bit. All throughout the seminar, he had been using uke's from the audience and knocked out every one of them fairly. When it came time for the no-touch he picked another kyusho instructor who had sponsored the event. I'm not going to believe any of that stuff until he does it to me. And I am quite confident that if I asked him to I would only get an excuse.
I have knocked people out, myself, using kyusho techniques (although I'm pretty bad at it) so I know that that stuff can work. But there's a line between kyusho jitsu and metaphysics that some people have crossed.

- Chris

Burncycle
04-28-2005, 11:01
One of the Delta Force soldiers in Black Hawk Down tells a ranger that he can knock a person unconscious with a hard kick to the inner thigh by "shocking the femoral artery".

He's absolutely correct. Assuming your knee or foot continues up and shocks what's right next to the inner thigh ;f

Do that hard enough, and if he isn't unconscious, he'll sure wish he was ;z

OJ
04-28-2005, 11:30
Having practiced surgery for over 40 years and having repaired numerous gunshot and kinfe wounds that severed both femoral artery and nerve, I can state absolutely that none of those patients were unconscious only because of those wounds. Some were pretty weak because of blood loss but were mentally alert.

;Q