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mpol777
04-27-2005, 10:19
I've been hearing through the grape vine that muzzleloader tags are becoming more and more plentiful around here. So I'd like to get in the game. I've shot a few but, my knowledge is sparse. I haven't decided on whether to go traditional or modern inline so I'd like opinions on both.

On the traditional side the CVA Mountain Hunter has really caught my eye. All blued steel and nice looking wood. It's also relatively light compared to other traditional style rifles, which is important to me. Are there any other options out there for a rifle in this style?

http://www.reloadpress.com/images/mountain_hunter.jpg

I'm also not very familiar with the ignition system on traditional muzzleloaders. Can pyrodex pellets be used in these? Are sabots and conical slugs used or just round ball? What kind of lock time do these things have?

On the inline side I've looked at Knight, CVA, Savage, Winchester, TC, H&R and Remington. I really like the removable action feature on the Knight Revolution. I also really like it's resemblance the 1885 falling block action. I would lean towards a falling or break action as opposed to a bolt action, just for aesthetics.

Any other insights would be appreciated.

noway
04-27-2005, 10:47
{I'm also not very familiar with the ignition system on traditional muzzleloaders. Can pyrodex pellets be used in these? Are sabots and conical slugs used or just round ball? What kind of lock time do these things have?

On the inline side I've looked at Knight, CVA, Savage, Winchester, TC, H&R and Remington. I really like the removable action feature on the Knight Revolution.}

You should be able to use any pre-charged pellets in these, depending on the ignition "capabilities", but the best bet would be straight BP which is what most non-inline styles MZL are designed for. Inlines using a #11 cap or 209 iginition can handle these ( pellets ) with no problems. Since this is a more older "traditional" style it would best be suited with BP and the pellets should be avoided.

As far as conical or sabot or plain balls, whats the rifling? Patch & Balls don't fair to good with fast rifling. So check the specs out real closely. MOst will tell you a 1 in 60 or slower would be best for ball&patch. You can get by with a 1 in 40ish with most conicals and sabot just fine.

The inlines you mention are quite good. I have a few CVA, used to owned a winchester and Knight and they will kill most of anything within 100yrds in the lower 48states with ease.

Hunterjbb
04-27-2005, 22:24
may want to check out the lymans.. I have a Great plains in .50 and it's very nice.. strictly BP and patch and ball though and it's not overly light.. But Lyman has another model that may math up with what your looking for.

I got into BP because it's a little more challenging, why would i want to purchase an inline with a scope shooting 350 grain bullets into a 2" group at 100 yds... of course depending on your local hunting rules that maybe the only way to go..

You'll hear a fair amount of agrument between the traditionalist and the more modern BP shooters..

if you really want a challenge go Flint lock.. I can't shoot them worth a darn..

Rate of twist in the barrel will determine projectile capabilities.

Stick with the traditional patch & ball.. get back to your roots.. lol..

good luck.

VonFatman
04-28-2005, 08:48
First of all, I don't hunt the black powder season to "find my roots"...I hunt it to extend my hunting season. I bought an in-line to achieve this...I bought one that was EASY (this was VERY important to me) to clean and reliable out to 100 yards (also very important to me).

I'm NOT a traditional hunter nor do I have any desire to "go traditional"...I do not use real black powder or patch & ball and my gun is set up with peep sights and a composite stock.

I certainly appreciate those who enjoy "primitive" hunting and in no way am I downplaying their sport. I think what they do is a totally different sport...it's what they do and I support them doing it! (unlike a great many "traditionalists" who would "ban" in-lines during the "black powder season").

If you don't have a problem using a "modern" muzzleloader...

I have a CVA "Staghorn" (a $79.00 in-line 50 cal) This gun has been "upgraded" by CVA to a new model...not sure of the name, but it's w/in $20.00 of the Staghorn. Wal-Mart sells them in a kit w/cheap scope or you can buy the bare-bones gun.

I installed a Williams peep sight (I do not do well with the factory sights and the factory spacing of fixed sights on most modern muzzleloaders...they are too close together for me to use...old eyes I guess) and I also installed a new front sight on my gun (to match up with the sighting elevation of the new Williams peep).

Once I got the gun's sights changed to my liking, I found that I can drill 3-4" groups off my bench at 100 yards all day long using the inexpensive 235gr Cabela's "brand" sabots...
My gun can use either traditional caps or shotgun shell primers for ignition...as you might have guessed, I opted for the 209 primers....much more reliable and out of the weather for more reliable ignition.

Low-end CVA's are inexpensive and seem to work pretty darn good. If you are new to muzzle loading...perhaps investing in a $100 gun is the way to start out...you can upgrade if you feel the desire later...if it turns out you don't enjoy it like you thought you would, you are not out 3-600 dollars on a gun. You can turn your $100 gun into a $50 loss.

Do I like my current (inexpensive gun)? If you offered to trade me out of my Staghorn for an Omega, Knight, etc....I'd let you keep your upper-end gun(s). Mine is so easy to clean and use I don't desire or need anything different. My CVA is what my dad refers to as a "meat gun".

Good luck!

Bob

mpol777
05-01-2005, 15:39
Thanks fellas. I've been reading and reading on this and have decided to go with the Knight Revolution for starters.

The more I've read the more I'm interested in a traditional sidelock, but there seems to be a whole lot more to it, so I'm going to hold off until I can study it more. I'm leaning more towards building a kit gun like those from Track of the Wolf (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/catList.aspx?catID=13#80).

Thanks again for the insights.

noway
05-01-2005, 21:18
I know of a few people that hav ebought these kits and built their own. They are nice, just check for all of the pcs and when you have all done, invest in a patriot wooden ram rod to wrapped everything up. I've been looking at building a percussion cap shotgun kit.

Sixgun_Symphony
05-02-2005, 01:37
Originally posted by VonFatman

I'm NOT a traditional hunter nor do I have any desire to "go traditional"...I do not use real black powder or patch & ball and my gun is set up with peep sights and a composite stock.



Then stick to your modern rifle season and stay the heck out of our special hunting season.

MDT
05-02-2005, 01:50
Boy, I knew that was coming!;z

In the voice of Rodney King..."can't we all jus' get along?!?"

:) :)

MDT

vafish
05-02-2005, 08:30
Originally posted by MDT
Boy, I knew that was coming!;z

In the voice of Rodney King..."can't we all jus' get along?!?"

:) :)

MDT

I was wondering when SixGun was going to chime in.

Like they're aren't enough deer to go around.

tjpet
05-02-2005, 08:46
Nothing wrong with a modern inline. Just use it during the season it really fits into - general rifle.

VonFatman
05-02-2005, 09:14
Hey SixGun,
I feed them dang deer all year long...they over-brouse my farm, and are a real problem...we take does ONLY to thin the herd and work with our Conversation Dept. to figure ways to keep thinning them down...I pay property taxes on the land and spend weeks each year to put in acres of food plots. I pay hard cash every spring for the seed and the seedlings. I put in the seedlings to develop erosion control and wildlife buffer zones...I don't grow anything but wildlife. No cash crops of any kind. I donate the hay. I'm in the process of converting all the grasslands from fescue to warm season native prairies (at the cost of $100/acre) to take the land back to it's roots (kinda what I imagine you think you are doing in your chosen sport, which by the way I support and do not condemn) All we grow is deer, songbirds, turkey etc.

Just out of curiosity, how much land do you OWN/care-take and how much time do YOU invest in other's land to promote wildlife and hunting (beyond buying black powder, flint and leggings).

You see, even after your judgment on me (and I assume you would judge others who might not have your passion for "true black powder") I would not disdain your desires to hunt during "my" modern season. I'm glad you hunt and hope you do well.

My reply was in response to the question posed by Mr. mpol777, member of Glocktalk, who asked for opinions regarding a gun, I suggest you might consider asking a few questions of folks before you dump on them. We’re all in this together. I support all ethical types of hunting during all legal seasons.

Have a nice day.

Bob

mpol777
05-02-2005, 13:22
Didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest.

;cs all around :)

VonFatman
05-02-2005, 15:56
No nest here. I like everybody.

Bo

noway
05-02-2005, 23:32
{Then stick to your modern rifle season and stay the heck out of our special hunting season.}

sixgun has hard on for anybody not using a orginal maple stock cut, tennesse flintlock mzl. He is so full of **** when it comes to muzzlelaoder and using them in a Muzzleloader season is unbelieveable. That why he think it's our season. ;Q

Mpol, if you have a muzzleloader season like what we have here in Florida then anything that has a closed breech and loads from the muzzle end that fired a projectile or projectiles with BP or a subsitute is what works. Inlines included, along with their plastic/composite stocks.

I remember a saying that was told to me a few years back when I got into muzzleloading," for ever flintlock muzzleloader sold about 20 inlines are sold".

Companies like CVA & Knight made the common inline percussion mzl a big hit for this season.

Michigun
05-03-2005, 06:38
I don’t discriminate myself when it comes to Michigan’s muzzleloading season…

… I use this highly customized/modified Leupold topped T/C Encore topped loaded with PowerBelts/Triple Seven…




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/Michigun/EPSN0045.jpg



… or anyone of these handmade works by my father…



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/Michigun/1Traditionalist.jpg



^c

(My dad likes to say that a true traditionalist uses either a flint-lock, wheel-lock or match-lock… anything percussion is way too modern. ;))

noway
05-03-2005, 07:16
btw mpol, you are more than welcome to use anything in "our florida muzzleloader season".

We don't discrimate either. Heck if you are brave enough to try a matchlock, more power to you. Ball -n- patch or conical or sabot, all are welcome. ;f

VonFatman
05-03-2005, 12:12
noway,
I admire you FL hunters...the heat and humidity!! Wow, you guys/gals must have to carry in your oun refridgeration to get the meat out of the woods w/o spoiling!

More power to you!

Michigun,
Nice guns! Your dad had the "touch". Beautiful!

Bob

noway
05-03-2005, 13:14
{I admire you FL hunters...the heat and humidity!! Wow, you guys/gals must have to carry in your oun refridgeration to get the meat out of the woods w/o spoiling!}

It's hard but we get by. The humidty is one thing but the blood sucking mosquitoes is another thing. :(

I do wish muzzleloading season wwas longer, it is one of the shortest season in all of our hunting seasons avg'ing 7-10days vrs archery which is normally 15-21 days. So you have to work very very hard to get get anything and normally I hunt on the weekend so I have just one weekend in our mzl season todo anything..

Michigun, nice muzzleloaders. That blank looks nice, what is it ? Maple?
;)

Michigun
05-03-2005, 13:35
Originally posted by VonFatman
Michigun,

Nice guns!

Ah, but none of those are technically mine (I have access to them, but not mine to do with what I please)... well not yet anyways, they will be all one day, but that day hopefully won’t be anytime soon if ya catch my drift! ;)

Originally posted by VonFatman
Your dad had the "touch".

"Had"? He's still does as far as I'm concerned! ;f

Seriously my father is still building right along… he's currently working on a nice “beater” flint-lock for me to abuse while whitetail hunting... no frills, just the basics. ^c After that he’s supposed to be building me a nice “beater” smoothbore flint-lock so I have something to use for pheasant/small game & waterfowl hunting, which is more abusive on a firearm then just about any other kind of hunting. ;)

Originally posted by VonFatman
Beautiful!

Thank you for the compliment & I will surly pass the kind words along to my father. ^c

(FYI, sometime I’ll have to get a group picture of all of his builds together… the picture above is only about 50% complete… not pictured is his wheel-lock, any of his pistols, a few more smoothbores, a few more rifles & a SWEET 2 rifle/2 pistol matching set (with case) with “screw-off” barrels. He has about 2 dozen complete kits that he’s put together (not built) as well over the years & a bunch more non-complete kits around… he’s also into scrimshaw (he built that powderhorn pictured), knifes, tomahawks & pretty much all things of that era, he even sews his own historically accurate clothes! Yup, our family vacations used to be centered around reenactments, parades, annual trips to York Town & anything else he could talk my mother into. :))

Originally posted by noway
Michigun, nice muzzleloaders. That blank looks nice, what is it ? Maple?

Thank you sir & yes; I do believe it is maple. (FYI, ALL of the ML’s above started out like that blank.)

VonFatman
05-03-2005, 14:18
Michigun,
Your dad is an artist!!

Bob

Alaska Bush Man
05-29-2005, 08:44
I often Bear hunt on my stand with a Browning JB Mountain Rifle in 54 Cal. I use Select at 100 grains with a Ballet Bullet. I like too see the smoke in the woods after a shot.....that's cool!

I would to see the word primitive weapon used during primitive weapon season.

I too have several muzzleloaders a 54 cal. knight MK 85 Predator SS that is just as accurate as some of my centerfire rifles.

I have 2 Browning JB Mountain Rifles in 50 and 54 cal. I have muzzleloaded hunted for over 32 years....back before inlines. I still enjoy carrying my old fasion Mountain rifles.

Sixgun_Symphony
05-29-2005, 09:02
Bob,

I read about your food plots and the liquidation of does. Your operation there seems to be set up for "canned hunts".

The muzzleloading season was originally started by buckskinners using traditional muzzleloading firearms. The inlines were created for people like you who do not care about muzzleloading firearms and would bring modern cartride rifles into our season if you could find a loophole in the regulations.

BTW, You bring up property taxes. Well we all pay taxes for public land. You should also look into the Robertson-Pittman act where taxes on sporting goods are used to support wildlife.

Sixgun_Symphony
05-29-2005, 09:19
Originally posted by noway

I do wish muzzleloading season wwas longer

I am starting to wish they would allow modern cartridge rifles into the muzzleloading season. The inlines would instantly vanish.

The buckskinners will continue on with the traditional muzzleloading firearms like we did before the special ML seasons were established.

BlackBelt
05-31-2005, 07:07
The first hunters threw rocks at the deer.
Then some young 'upstarts' came in with slingshots. The old rock-throwing guys sat around the cave mumbling about these 'new-fangled inventions'--what with their leather straps and pockets for the rock. Why, any caveman worth his salt knows that the 'true' hunter just throws with his right hand...except for that show-off named Trog that lives 3 caves over...he's a lefty.

noway
05-31-2005, 07:42
{The first hunters threw rocks at the deer.
Then some young 'upstarts' came in with slingshots. The old rock-throwing guys sat around the cave mumbling about these 'new-fangled inventions'--what with their leather straps and pockets for the rock. Why, any caveman worth his salt knows that the 'true' hunter just throws with his right hand...except for that show-off named Trog that lives 3 caves over...he's a lefty.}

A good analogy.. LOL.

{ The inlines were created for people like you who do not care about muzzleloading firearms and would bring modern cartride rifles into our season if you could find a loophole in the regulations. }
;Q

Muzzeloaders & bullets have evolved just like our ancestor has evolved. Any guess what, it will keep on envolving. It doesn't make me any more or less of a hunter because I choose to use a more modern designed along with more modern accessories. i still must use the basic hunters knowledge in knowing my games, understand my weapon and my personal limitations.

Just like the above joke with a serious example, mankind has always achieved to make things better. And just like we don't drive around with model Ts or fly twin props planes for our commerical airlines or used BlackPowder in our ammunition, the mzl has be improved on and will keep on improving.

If you load it from a the muzzle, then guess what it's a muzzleloader.

VonFatman
05-31-2005, 09:39
noway,
I hear ya!

I seem to go in spurts...most the time I just sit on the side-lines w/out giving an opinion (regarding in-lines vs. traditional)...heck, it's their money right!?

But as you might guess, its comments made by strongly opinionated folks like Mr. SGunS that reinvigorates me to get back into the fray; to push and promote in-line black powder hunting.

This weekend I took time to talk a friend out of a Hawken type "traditional" rifle and into an Omega in-line. I even went to Cabela's to share in the buying "experience". He's so happy with the Omega...what a smile...wait 'til he take it to the range!

Last summer an 'ol "buck skinner" with similarly strong “opinions" invited me out to a local black powder shoot. When he found out I had an in-line, he uninvited me. No big deal, but certainly an indication of the close-mindedness of some individuals.

That 'ol buck skinner will never know it, but as a result of his "kindness", I've cemented my own opinions regarding "traditional only hunting".

In January, I spoke out on several important hunting topics including my opposition to the Missouri Conservation Department creating a special "traditional only" black powder season during one of MDC's regional public meetings. Who knows if my opinion mattered to anyone from the Department...but they heard them and not a single hunter stood & spoke in favor of such a season (during that meeting, over 100 people were in attendance).

I guess since there seems to be so much disdain for "in-liners", I'll strive to make my opinion heard when future meetings are scheduled.

Last fall, I personally helped "switch" at least four hunters to in-line guns. Two were new to black powder and two decided to go in-line after they tried out my el-cheapo CVA. Results speak for themselves.

I have to admit, it's been fun working "my magic". Am I a little ornery? I guess so. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander!

I also sleep a little better knowing I'm sticking it to those who would condemn and control our hunting rights.

Bob

noway
05-31-2005, 10:15
I couldn't agreed with you any more.

Myself I think CVA, traditions and Knight have turned the mzl world upside down with their cheap and enconomical mzls. Everybody that I'm introduce to the mzl season, all when with a inlinie. A starter kit at $110.00 before taxes is very economical when compare to an older style flintlock and then when you factor in most areas around this state only has a season that;s 7-12days long, the el cheapo inline looks even better.

Inline regardless of other people thoughts ( and they know who they are ) are here to stay and have turned the world upside when it comes to hunting with a muzzleloader just like fire for caveman. I don't try tobe close minded or become blinded to that facts and learn to accept them ALL. Flint, inline or std percussion styles are all welcome. :cool:

Sixgun_Symphony
06-01-2005, 17:06
The special muzzleloading seasons were created by the lobbying efforts of buckskinners using traditional muzzle loading firearms.

The inlines were designed for SLOB HUNTERS wanting to use modern rifles in our primitive hunting season.

Sixgun_Symphony
06-01-2005, 17:09
Originally posted by noway
because I choose to use a more modern designed along with more modern accessories.

Which is why you and your modern inline rifle should stay in the modern rifle season.

Sixgun_Symphony
06-01-2005, 17:13
Originally posted by VonFatman

I also sleep a little better knowing I'm sticking it to those who would condemn and control our hunting rights.


Using modern rifles in a primitive firearms season. Then there are the canned hunts.

You are too much of a slob to be considered a hunter.

vafish
06-01-2005, 19:55
I always wonder why a guy who loves buck skinning, blackpowder guns, and sixguns (so much that he claims to carry 2 black powder revolvers when he goes hiking in the woods) even bothers hanging out on a forum for plastic semi auto pistols.

I've said my piece before with sixgun on the topic of inlines.

The basic inline design has been around for a couple hundred years. It's not modern, it's just been improved a bit.

In-lines are here to stay. As my 9 year old would say: "Build a bridge, and get over it!"

Just because someone chooses to use an inline doesn't mean they are a slob hunter. Calling people names doesn't strengthen your argument.

If inlines in the woods when you hunt are too much for you take up archery, they you can complain about all those buys with those modern compound bows.

Sixgun_Symphony
06-01-2005, 22:10
Using modern firearms in a special season set aside for primitive firearms is just unethical.

VonFatman
06-02-2005, 07:47
vafish,
You should hear the "traditional" bow hunters complain about the compound bows! Wow! Talk about having an "opinion" or two.

Bob

Alaska Bush Man
06-02-2005, 08:02
Now

I have a excuse for the wife to buy that Widow Long Bow that I always wanted....

Sixgun_Symphony
06-02-2005, 12:18
The special hunting seasons for muzzle loading firearms seasons were created by the lobbying efforts of traditionalists. It was many years after the muzzle loading hunts were established that Tony Knight invented the modern inline rifle.

The modern inline rifles are within the letter of the law in that they load from the muzzle. The modern inlines break the spirit of the law in that they are a modern design. The market for these inlines are the unethical slobs that wish to bring a modern rifle into a primitive firearms hunting season.

Modern inlines are right up there with canned hunts, shooting from vehicles, and "internet hunting" where you can get online and contol a zoom lens camera and rifle to shoot an animal.

http://www.live-shot.com/

noway
06-02-2005, 12:51
{Modern inlines are right up there with canned hunts, shooting from vehicles, and "internet hunting" where you can get online and contol a zoom lens camera and rifle to shoot an animal.
}


;Q

I heard enough............

Comparing a modern inline mzl with canned heat hunts or shooting from vehicles or internet hunting. That has been the most silliest statement made yet in this thread. Modern mvl believe it or not, are the most common mzl used in Florida mzl loader ( and I bet U.S states wide ) and this state doesn't restrict "types" of mzl used except for firing a single projectile 40cal or higher for deer and if you are shooting 2 balls or more it must be 20ga, once again for deer ONLY. So you can use a classic design or more modern design BP or alternative, ball&patch or sabot or conical,nobody cares.... Il was the same way, except they restrict smokeless mzls and the caliber is specified at 45cal minimum iirc. ;)


I think you are caught up on the wording of Muzzleloader season vrs Primitive which are 2 things not neccessary the same. If your state has a "primitive weapon only" ( not sure as too what states have this term, none of the states I've hunted with a mzl word it as so ) and specify the weapon type and ignition, then you have a valid argument.

The common inline mzl firearms is the most common and widely used , regardless if you are willing to except it. It also has been commonly associated to the "Muzzleloader seasons" thru out the states regardless of whatever Tony Knight did or didn't attribute to it success. The inline have been used dating back to the early 1800s and mainly by the germans and french. Also the common used percussion cap , kinda whent hand & glove with the inline and is much better than a side-type percussion cap firing type of mzl, due to the cap behind inline and right behind the powder to produce more ignition.

Like stated earlier build a bridge and get over it. They are here to stay.

:)

VonFatman
06-02-2005, 13:06
Alaska Bush Man,
I understand the "need an excuse for the wife" situation completely. Been there, done that!!

However, my life has changed a bit over the years. Last July I re-married my best friend and believe it or not, she actually enjoys sharing the range and woods with me. She even likes to fish.

Here's my best hunting buddy:

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/5378Karli28-2.JPG

Her daughter shot her first two deer this past fall:

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/53781lara_deer.jpg


I find that I no longer need to have an excuse to take a run at a new "toy".

Take it easy and good luck with the new bow.

Bob

mpol777
06-02-2005, 13:29
I go to a rendezvous every year. We don't trade squaws, throw axes and fellas arrive by truck or plane instead of horse or mule. We camp in wall tents with modern cook gear and talk about what's what. Which is what a rendezvous is. A bunch of hunters getting together to swap stories and techniques, catch up on news, trade gear and furs, toss down a few drinks and have fun. Same as those fellas hundreds of years ago. Our tools have changed, but the spirit is the same.

I'm a proponent of doing away with tool specific seasons. Folks should be able to use whatever pleases them and gets the results. Muzzleloader, bow, handgun, centerfire rifle, traps... I've never been able to taste the difference between critters that have been killed with any of them so why make the season? I don't see the need to get special permission from the government, or anyone else for that matter, to say what tool I can or cannot use. But such is life.

I would even go so far as to do away with regulations on what tools are acceptable. If a guy can kill a deer cleanly and quickly with a NERF gun, then he should be legally able. The problem there is most folks don't have two brain cells to rub together and the animals suffer because of it.

fishshooter
06-02-2005, 13:54
Originally posted by vafish
I always wonder why a guy who loves buck skinning, blackpowder guns, and sixguns (so much that he claims to carry 2 black powder revolvers when he goes hiking in the woods) even bothers hanging out on a forum for plastic semi auto pistols.

And why is he using the internet and not a telegraph or the pony express ? It must be fun packing the meat on a horse to haul back home. And keeping that meat without a freezer or fridge must be a task. I'm sure the wood he uses to jerk his venison was all cut by hand, because otherwise it would just be unethical. Shouldn't a true primitive weapons season just allow traditional bows, spears, and rocks ?

noway
06-02-2005, 14:14
Hey von, does your wife have any single sisters or friends?
;)

I woul dlove to find a lady that hunts and an a added bonus would be if she could skin a deer.

VonFatman
06-02-2005, 19:54
mpol777,
Well said! I hope we didn't "hijack" your thread (too much anyway!).

I'm with you...if a man wants to chase 'em down and cut their throat with a knife...I'd like to watch!

fishshooter,
Good observation(s)!

noway,
Can you believe you are not the 1st. friend to ask me that??
Sorry. One sister is a liberal and the other is lost in the clouds. (but I'm planning to teach the liberal's kid how to shoot and hunt...so much my Christmas card!)

Lara, my step daughter, is a GREAT deer skinner...my wife, well, she cooks anything I shoot.

Bob

vafish
06-02-2005, 20:59
Originally posted by noway
...and an a added bonus would be if she could skin a deer.

She should know how to clean fish too.

Oh and she should have a nice bass boat. :) :) :) :)


Guys with attitudes like Sixgun's do more to harm hunting and shooting sports than they reallize.

The anti gunners love to use the us vs. them things and drive wedges between groups of hunters.

VonFatman
06-03-2005, 06:29
vafish,
If I was so upset at the world all the time, I doubt I could enjoy the things I enjoy!

Bob

Sixgun_Symphony
06-03-2005, 16:22
Originally posted by noway

I think you are caught up on the wording of Muzzleloader season vrs Primitive which are 2 things not neccessary the same.

The term "muzzleloader" was common parliance for the primitive firearms before Tony Knight invented the modern inlines.

I have read Tony Knights sales pitch about inline rifles being used in the 1800's. That is a salesman talking, pure BS. No one in the 1800's was using a scoped, stainless steel, synthetic stocked modern inline rifle with shotgun primers, pyrodex pellets and saboted bullets.

The people who buy and use modern inline rifles in muzzleloading season are unethical slobs. Common today? Of course they are. If there was a loophole in the law that allowed people to use modern cartridge firearms in our muzzle loading hunts, then the masses of asses would be using their .30-06 and .270 rifles.

A case in point.

Originally posted by VonFatman
First of all, I don't hunt the black powder season to "find my roots"...I hunt it to extend my hunting season. I bought an in-line to achieve this...I bought one that was EASY (this was VERY important to me) to clean and reliable out to 100 yards (also very important to me).

Here is a person that would use a modern cartridge rifle in the muzzle loading hunt if he could find a legal opportunity to do so.

noway
06-04-2005, 11:23
all I can say and end my response to this downward thread since you got on it, is..... ;Q

I don't consider myself a slob or bypassing a so-called loop-hole in my states mzl season. You might want to "actually" read the laws of various states before posting half-cock, misleading and "yours truly" interrputations.

You find alot or majority of states don't specifiy the type or equipment used during a muzzleloader season. I can name 3 states that I have hunted in their mzl season ( Fl/Il/IN ), and other than caliber, that's about the only thing the specifiy.


{then the masses of asses would be using their .30-06 and .270 rifles.}

even a bigger Roll of the eyes is needed for this. I gugess by your logic if we mzl'er use S.S bbl all plastic stock with or without scope and shooting a sabot w/bullet then we are slobs, I bet you looked down at the hunters even more that choose a rifle firing a smokeless powder & consider than a bigger slob. ;Q

noway is out. ;)

Remember if you load it from via the muzzle, than by all means it's a muzzleloader
:)

edit: one's hunting equipment don't make a hunter a slob or more ethical or unethical.

Sixgun_Symphony
06-06-2005, 01:16
Again, the muzzleloading firearms hunts were established before Tony Knight invented the modern inline rifles.

The term "muzzleloader" was common parliance for "primitive firearm" or "old fashioned" firearms.

So the laws were written for "muzzleloading firearms". Before 1985, no one ever imagined the modern inline rifles that we have today. The modern inlines are for cheaters who wish to bring modern rifles into a primitive hunt.

BTW, the thread went downhill when VonFatman made it clear that he wants to use a modern rifle in our muzzleloading hunt season.

TScottW99
06-06-2005, 01:31
Using an inline is unethical??????

hmmmm Virginia has a Muzzleloader season, not a traditional or primitive season. We used to have primitive and rumors say we might have two ML seasons soon, one being all muzzleloaders and one for primitive only. I would like that.

Inlines (mine at least) load from the muzzle. It uses black powder or subsitute and meets the VA Game & Fish regs.

Being a moderator on two hunting forums I see the Inline VS "old way" come up time to time. I see ethics come up every day. It is almost impossible to argue ethics on a WWW forum. Of course there are the ol' legal but ethical arguments that do hold water.

In Va it is unethical and illegal to hunt over bait. In Texas it is a standard and legal practice. In eastern VA it is ethical and legal to hunt deer with dogs. In western VA it is illegal and unethical to hunt deer with dogs.

Just some common examples of ethics being argued all over the WWW.

I however take offense of being called unethical and a slob hunter when I am folowing my state game laws to the letter. I go above and beyond when it comes to sportsmenship. I practice regularly with my muzzleloader(bow, rifle, shotgun & handgun) and I know it's limitations. I take only well placed shots.

Sixshot, I enjoy your posts on other issues. I like the fact that you cherish the days of old and the weapons used. However not everyone is the same, if we were it would be quite the boring world
;) Attacking other hunters when they are hunting legally and with good sportsmenship will kill hunting all together. Much like the hound issue, trapping issue, bow hunting issue, bear & cougar issue is threating these forms of hunting now in various states.

Have fun with your flint this fall and I will have fun with my inline. Hopefully one day I can get myself a flint and we can then discuss hunting with those rifles. But please consider us inliners as a differn't form of muzzleloading instead of slobs. Just like I look at my deer dog hunting Virginians on the eastern shore, it's not my cup of tea but I wish them well.

Sixgun_Symphony
06-06-2005, 01:38
Originally posted by noway
I bet you looked down at the hunters even more that choose a rifle firing a smokeless powder & consider than a bigger slob.



You refer to the Savage inline muzzleloading rifle that uses modern smokeless powder?

Yes, they are produced and marketed for unethical slobs.

If you are going that route, then you guys might as well pay a team of lawyers to find some legal loopholes in the game laws so you can legaly bring your .30-06 rifles into the archery season.

Sixgun_Symphony
06-06-2005, 01:47
Originally posted by TScottW99

Virginia has a Muzzleloader season, not a traditional or primitive season.


Again, the term "muzzleloader" was common parliance for primitive firearms before Tony Knight invented the modern inline rifles.

TScottW99
06-06-2005, 03:01
Six, where do you want to draw the line? Which year? Since percussions are considered "traditional" by most of your crowd should we put a cut off date of 1816? Since the "birth" of the percussion was that year.

How about the year 1808? Since the first real inline was patented in that year by a Swede named Pauley.

How about 1525? That was when the wheel lock came around. A little more progressive then the match lock or flint lock and more like a primitive inline.

P.S. Using smokless powder in a muzzleloader in VA is illegal.

P.S.S. The above information was not written by or endorsed by Tony Knight.

;)

VonFatman
06-06-2005, 07:12
TScottW99,
Good points. Our hunters to the south of Missouri use dogs to hunt deer in Arkansas. I've never tried it. Can't say I have a real passion to give it a go, but if I were there and had the opportunity to experience the hunt, sure, why not. I guess the hunters watch clearings and openings (like power line right-a-ways) and shoot the deer as they pass thru...I'd have to watch unless a deer stopped for my shot, I don't take shots at running deer.

Same for using dogs for fall wild turkey...I think NY allows it as well as some other states. I'd give that a go too. I hear the dogs are specially trained to bark when they bust up a rafter...the hunter moves in, sets up, the dog is covered up, and the birds are called in...sounds fun to me...especially since locating a rafter of fall birds is hit-n-miss at best.

It's diversity that makes hunting so fun.

Bob

MDT
06-08-2005, 02:43
Holy Hell Sixgun... dude, let it go. It's not YOUR season. You are sounding like the wingshooters with their $16,000 Merkle side by side who can't understand why anyone should own an AR-15 (you can take their AR, just don't confiscate my shotgun because I'm a true hunter).

It's all about hunting, preserving our rights as hunters, keeping the antis off our butts. We don't need each other on our asses. If a new hunter cuts his/her teeth on an inline, great! We have another person to enjoy the sport and an ally in the fight to preserve our rights.

Dude, go knock yourself out, have fun with your Hawken (or whatever). Sew your own buckskin clothes, fantastic. Just don't call others slobs or unethical simply because you disagree with their methods. If a hunter makes a clean, ethical, quick kill, they are not unethical. You are being elitist and the hunting community doesn't need this.

MDT

VonFatman
06-08-2005, 14:03
MDT,
Well stated.

Apparently someone must have shot "his" buck with an in-line during muzzleloading season.

Bob