not looking for trouble,just curious

[vincent63]

i shot ARs for years,owned a bushy for 10 yrs before financial issues forced me to sell it,honestly ive been out of the AR loop for about 3 yrs.....looking to get back into the 223 world,eyeballing a dpms flattop.....will someone explain the purpose of mounting a vertical plastic handle on the barrel shroud?i understand it gives you a grip,but so does the barrel shroud,and surrounding your barrel with one more layer of insulation to hold in the heat just doesnt strike me as a smart move,,,,do they offer some real advantage or do they just satisfy the mall ninja that lies dormant within each of us?

[Slater1601]

I'm with ya on that one. Unless you're rapid firing from the hip, I see absolutely no point in them. And aesthetically, it makes the gun look shotty.

[ColdMan]

I partially agree, it adds one more thing to snag the rifle on.

I like those grips far enough back that I might as well use the magazine well. I'm relatively tall and have long arms too.

[CIAHitman]

Shoot hundreds if not thousands of rounds thru your gun and that forearm is going to get mighty hot. Too hot to touch. The vertical grips are either aluminum or plastic and will aim in holding on the rifle and is more natural than pulling the rifle in from the forearm, esecially in CQB situations.
Some people like them and some don't, but they do serve a purpose.

[VA_Hoplophile]

and surrounding your barrel with one more layer of insulation to hold in the heat just doesnt strike me as a smart move
Except for the occasional person who is trying to keep it cheap by attaching the grip to a set of normal plastic handguards, forward grips are usually attached to railed handguards, which have far more ventilation holes and keep the barrel much, much cooler than the standard plastic handguards.

Unless you're rapid firing from the hip, I see absolutely no point in them.
So we can assume that you've never attended an IPSC-style rifle match or attended a carbine shooting school, right?

The proper way to hold the AR when you're shooting rapid fire is to stand square to the target, put the buttstock close to the centerline of your body (generally somewhere above the nipple) and keep both elbows tucked in close to the body. This allows much better recoil control and faster followup shots. It is also much more comfortable when you have a forward grip. You can also hold onto the front of the mag well but after a few hours of shooting there is a lot of heat around there.

[kestrou]

Thanks guys - keep those comments coming!

I'm considering adding a vertical grip to my 16" Bushy and trying to decide if it's worth it or not...

kestrou

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by kestrou
Thanks guys - keep those comments coming!

I'm considering adding a vertical grip to my 16" Bushy and trying to decide if it's worth it or not...

kestrou

These guys thought it was worth it

http://members.cox.net/m4_4u/101st.jpg

http://members.cox.net/m4_4u/85.jpg

[DaleGribble]

Originally posted by GoreLicks
These guys thought it was worth it


Count me as another person that likes a vertical foregrip. It's just more comfortable!

And bring back Uncle Rico! ;f

[quicksand]

Did those guys realy think it was worth it? Or did they just take what they were given?

My question is this, do they get in the way when fireing prone? What about while sitting?

I see the possible advantage of shooting while standing, more control and heat resistance. But in other positions it seems like it would get in the way.

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by quicksand
Did those guys realy think it was worth it? Or did they just take what they were given?

Yes, these guys all customize their weapon the way they like. If they don't want the vertical grip, they could easily remove it.

Originally posted by quicksand
My question is this, do they get in the way when fireing prone? What about while sitting?

I see the possible advantage of shooting while standing, more control and heat resistance. But in other positions it seems like it would get in the way.

That may be an issue, but so are 30rnd mags.

[VA_Hoplophile]

Originally posted by quicksand
Did those guys realy think it was worth it? Or did they just take what they were given?

My question is this, do they get in the way when fireing prone? What about while sitting?

I see the possible advantage of shooting while standing, more control and heat resistance. But in other positions it seems like it would get in the way.
When prone or kneeling it still keeps the supprot wrist at a more natural angle. It can also be used as a monopod for support.

[NRA_guy]

Notice that 2 of the 4 guys in the top photo are holding by the magazine---not the vertical grip.

I find it interesting that they are allowed to customize their weapon. Did not know they could do that, even though I have read on GT and AR.COM about folks writing home for accessories. I figured they had to hide them.

I would think that too much customization would be detrimental.

What's the limit on such mods? Custom stocks? Optics? Magazines? Ammo? Just wondering.

PS: Note too that all the men in both photos have their trigger finger in the right place.

[RMTactical]

Well, some of the accessories are supplied by the military, some mods are done with the money of the specific soldier/marine. I know that the military uses Aimpoints and ACOG's, although there are not enough to go around so some guys have to buy their own.

I am sure it depends on their commanders as to how far they can modify their weapons, but from what I hear, most just look the other way as long as the troops are happy.

I have seen a pic with a guy who had a post ban (maybe a bushmaster) upper on his weapon, it had a muzzle brake.

You wouldn't be able to customize your ammo outside what the military issues. Custom stocks, optics, and any USGI mags are probably accepted with no problems, at least from what I know.

[VA_Hoplophile]

Originally posted by NRA_guy
[B]Notice that 2 of the 4 guys in the top photo are holding by the magazine---not the vertical grip.The vertical grips are issued, but the soldiers are not necessarily told how best to use them. They often put the grip too far forward on teh rail and end up useing the front of the mag well because that's closer to the point of balance. The grip should be much farther to the rear. Having it up front like that does make it easier to use as a rest against a barricade, I suppose.

I find it interesting that they are allowed to customize their weapon. Did not know they could do that, even though I have read on GT and AR.COM about folks writing home for accessories. I figured they had to hide them.

I would think that too much customization would be detrimental.

What's the limit on such mods? Custom stocks? Optics? Magazines? Ammo? Just wondering.
Depends on the unit commander. Support units with non-combat-minded commanders may be lucky to be allowed to mount an optic to the carry handle. As you get further out on the pointy end they can get away with more. As a general rule they cannot make any real changes to the configuration. Replacing a fixed stock with a collapsible stock is not likely to be allowed, but simply pulling the plastic collapsible stock off and using a different collapsible stock on the same buffer tube might be okay.

[PDogSniper]

I was just given an inexpensive model to try out. I never thought of the heat issue till now but I've had my forearm so hot I couldn't hang on to it. I can only imagine if one were in a fire fight on full auto....

One thing I and another noticed, with the handle grip it seems to promote keeping the left elbow naturally tighter to the body...

[Rob96]

I am still on the fence with this one. I am old school, and was taught the "old" way to shoot the AR. Because of this, the vfg feels un-natural to me. Right now I just grab the mag well, if I need a vfg. One of the biggest problems with the vfg is when you drop to go prone and use a curb, dirt pile, whatever you are using for cover, to support the rifle. I may play around with them for a while, to see if they grow on me.

[Bonk]

I was torn about the whole VFG thing until I went to Storm Mountain and shot a few rifles with them attached. My whole time in the Marine Corps was with a bare-bones M16A2, and I'll admit I am not a gizmo junkie, but some quality time with a VFG convinced me that it's a worthwhile accessory. I have mine mounted two slots up from the rearmost slot, which gives me both good balance for a quick shot and space enough so I can grab the delta ring with my off-hand for a standing shot in the old high-power stance.

[00Buck]

They were talking about this on one of the gun shows on today. Make sure you get the Larue Tactical handguards with the Larue Locking System. Soilders were twisting their gas tubes off before they started using them. That could leave you in a bad way in a tactical situation. Personally I use the mag as a forward grip. Works great for me. Here is the Larue web site.


http://www.laruetactical.com/marketplace/servlet/Marketplaces?webEvent(ViewProductGridPage,folderClick)&folderID=6411&scrollTop=0

[Rob96]

Personally I use the mag as a forward grip. Works great for me.

Same here, if I absolutely need a vfg. Plus it is free.;)

[kestrou]

OK - my arm is twisted - ordered a VFG and will let you guys know how I like it! ;f

kestrou

[dbrowne1]

If you think about how twisted and contorted your support arm and wrist are using a "conventional" hold on the handguards, and how much more natural it is to have your support hand in the same orientation as your dominant hand...the VFG begins to make a lot of sense.

Other option is to use the magwell/mag in a similar fashion, which some people actually prefer to a VFG.

[Rob96]

Other option is to use the magwell/mag in a similar fashion, which some people actually prefer to a VFG.

After much comparison, I prefer to use the magwell. Even with the vfg, on the rear most portion of the rail, I don't get the comfort factor. It just feels awkward.

[NRA_guy]

I have studied ergonomics some.

If you shoot from your right shoulder, hold your left arm in the position that you would normally for shooting your AR.

Keep your left wrist straight.

See the weird angle your hand makes with your make believe AR?

It's not vertical, but it's not horizontal like the normal forearm grip either.

To my way of thinking, that would be the ideal grip angle.

It would give the shooter the maximum rigidity and minimum stress and fatigue.

Maybe somebody makes one that has multi degrees of freedom adjustment. If not, maybe they should.

[VA_Hoplophile]

Originally posted by NRA_guy
I have studied ergonomics some.
I'm not sure whcih angle you're looking at. Are you saying the grip should be angle front/back or right left? There are forward grips available that are angled front back. There are some grips that use the same grip as teh rear and mount it at the same angle. There is also a grip that I think is made by Falcon that is adjustable from folded flat to the front to folded flat to the rear.

The angle that people want for a VFG is a personal thing but the vast majority prefer the vertical grip. A grip that is ergonomic for holding the weapon isn't the same as grip that is ergonomic for controlling the weapon, if that makes any sense.

[NRA_guy]

Originally posted by VA_Hoplophile
I'm not sure whcih angle you're looking at. Are you saying the grip should be angle front/back or right left?

Both, actually. As you say, it depends upon the user and his/her physique and how far forward the grip is positioned. But generally, my left had would be more "ergonimic" if the grip were angled slightly forward about 30 degrees and tilted about 30 degrees to the left.

Granted, it would look weird and folks would laugh at you. And I'm not sure it would increase accuracy---but it would be more comfortable.

Heck, as much as some guys fire their AR, they run the risk of getting carpal tunnel syndrom in their left wrist. :)


There are forward grips available that are angled front back. There are some grips that use the same grip as teh rear and mount it at the same angle. There is also a grip that I think is made by Falcon that is adjustable from folded flat to the front to folded flat to the rear.

The angle that people want for a VFG is a personal thing but the vast majority prefer the vertical grip. A grip that is ergonomic for holding the weapon isn't the same as grip that is ergonomic for controlling the weapon, if that makes any sense.

I agree. It's probably like those ergonomic hammers and pliers I have seen. I wouldn't (and couldn't) use one. Just too weird.

But as an engineer, I always figured structural rigidity and repeatability of one's body parts contribute to accuracy. I.e., you would like to form a rigid truss of triangles with your body and your weapon. Having a straight left wrist would contribute slightly to that rigidity and to the shooter's comfort.

That's why you have a pistol grip for your right hand. It makes the rifle easier to hold and shoot because your right wirst in a straight, natural position.

The worst stocks going are the "English" straight stocks because they force your right wrist into an unnatural (strained) position.

Thanks.

[VA_Hoplophile]

Originally posted by NRA_guy
Both, actually. As you say, it depends upon the user and his/her physique and how far forward the grip is positioned. But generally, my left had would be more "ergonimic" if the grip were angled slightly forward about 30 degrees and tilted about 30 degrees to the left.
My concern about having it angled to the side is that doing so could cause it to pull to the side. Better to keep things in line with the force of recoil.

Granted, it would look weird and folks would laugh at you. And I'm not sure it would increase accuracy---but it would be more comfortable.I'm not sure it would be more comfortable. Using a normal vertical grip there is not much bend in my wrist at all.

[series1811]

If you find yourself frequently holding onto the magwell instead of the stock, as I often did, you may find the vertical grip to be a lot better way to go. I resisted putting one on for years because I thought they looked hokey and didn't do anything. I was wrong.

For me, it lets me hold my rifle in the most comfortable way for shooting. If you are a mag well holder, try it. :)

[Rob96]

Originally posted by series1811
If you find yourself frequently holding onto the magwell instead of the stock, as I often did, you may find the vertical grip to be a lot better way to go. I resisted putting one on for years because I thought they looked hokey and didn't do anything. I was wrong.

For me, it lets me hold my rifle in the most comfortable way for shooting. If you are a mag well holder, try it. :)

I have been comparing the two, and I seem to get a better elbow tuck by using the magwell.

[G17-"Flagship"]

in so far as soldiers making mods to their weapons...i'll only speak for my unit when i was there. ;) aimpoints, and acogs were all placed in the same position regardless of soldier preference. meaning...4 slots exposed from the rear of the flat-top to the rear of the optic. (leaving enough space for the BUIS) surefire's, paq-4's, or peq-2's were placed where the soldier wanted them. forward hand grips were placed where the soldiers wanted them, to include OFF the rifle, in a buttpack, if he so chose. we were not even allowed to THINK about changing internal parts, or even uppers. ;m we had the 4-pos buttstocks...and no one minded one bit. for the oldtimers, who cut their teeth on the m16a1's...they left the adjustable stocks long. for guys like me, who prefer a more compact fit...i kept mine either "one click" in or in the cities "two clicks" in.

i like the grips. once we got the grips...it was as much a part of the rifle as the magazine was...for me.

i've never been a big fan of the sturdiness of the ar mags, so i always put the grip as far back (close to the magwell) as possible. that worked well for me. when firing from windows on hmmwv's or the slats on the back of the hmmwv's using the gap between the grip and magwell helped a lot. having the grip back near the magwell, allowed some soldiers (like me) to "undermount" the taclights...so that we could activate the push button end caps with the knuckles on our index fingers.

as i reread this reply...i appologize for the length. :soap: to each his own. :cool:

[series1811]

Originally posted by Rob96
I have been comparing the two, and I seem to get a better elbow tuck by using the magwell.

My primary use for magwell holding was when I was shooting long distances from a standing position. I still sometimes find myself doing it out of habit and it does work for me. I have my verticle grip mounted about six inches ahead of the magwell. That is the good thing about rails, you can keep moving the grip around until you find exactly the right spot.

I'm pretty happy with mine,though. The good thing about it, is it does not stop you from using a magwell grip when you want to. It puts your hands in kind of a natural fighting stance, and if your AR is equipped with a white light (both of mine are) it allows easy manipulation of the rear push button switch that is most common on tactical lights sold these days.

:)